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Bark control collar - do they work?

sprayeddog
July 19th, 2005, 02:03 PM
I am wondering if anybody's tried those bark control collars, and how well do they work?

Reason I'm asking is I have tried everything and just can't stop Matty, my 11 weeks lab, to stop barking.

When I first picked up Matty from the breeder I already noticed all the dogs in the kernel barked vigorously and continously ... the kernel is otherwise fine. I don't know if it's in his blood, or if he picked up the habit during that time, but Matty barks everytime we leave him in the crate.

And he'd bark even when I'm standing right outside of his crate and he can see me ... he'd still bark. And he'd bark continously until someone take him out of the crate. I've tried ignoring him, tapping on the fence while he barks, telling him 'no barking' ... I've even trained him to 'speak' on command, and then tell him "no speak" but nothing seems to work. Throughout this whole time, we've never given him attention when he barks. We always wait till he quiets down (and we gotta be quick, cos that usually doesn't last more than 30 sec's) to pick him up.

We have basically tried everything (except physically punishing him, which I don't want to cos I don't want to risk breaking the bond with him) but nothing seems to work. Obviously I hope he'll eventually grow out of it but the way things look right now, I don't think he's change his habit by himself.

It's especially annoying when he needs to go to relief himself early in the morning (5 or 6 am) and when we put him back to the crate and try to get some sleep before we get up for work, he'd continue to bark as loud as he can for 45 min to 1 hr ... he just won't give up. Not only we can't go back to sleep, but this is annoying for our neighbours too ... imagine if your neighbour's dog barks for 45 hrs every morning at 5-6am.

Matty has other behavoral problems but barking is by far the most frustrating one for myself and my wife ... we're going to lose our nerves soon.

That's why I'm about to give the bark collars a try and see how well they work ... I see that there are 3 kindsof bark collars. The first one would make a supersonic sound that human cannot hear but dog can everytime it detects continual barking for so many seconds, and it will stop as soon as barking stops. The second one would emit an odour to distract the dog everytime barking is detected. The third one would vibrate everytime it detects barking, and longer the barking, the more vigorus is the vibration.

All of them do not do any harm to the dog, but serve as a distraction everytime the dog barks. I don't know which one works better, or how well they work in general so I'm just looking for so advices.

Thanks in advance...

Luba
July 19th, 2005, 02:36 PM
You have a puppy it takes time, reward positive behaviour and redirect or ignore negative.

Bark collars are cruel and can malfunction.

Dogastrophe
July 19th, 2005, 02:57 PM
In your post last week, there were many suggestions to improve on his barking behaviour. Have you been working through some of the ideas? Have you moved his sleeping area into your BR or is he still segregated from everyone at night?

When you are crate training you need to be consistent. If Matty barks for an hour and someone comes to pick him up, he will quickly figure out that he needs to bark for an hour to get attention. His crate should be a 'happy' place for him. You need to set him up for success i.e. leave some of his favourite toys in the crate, when he walks in on his own to get them, praise him vigourously; feed him in the crate, etc. Basically you need to associate the crate with good things and not as the place where he goes when you are not around.

On the issue of bark collars, you mention that you do not want to resort to physical punishment; however, that is exactly what these collars do only it does not come directly from you. Imagine that if everytime you started to speak someone came up to you and gave you a hard flick on the throat, or sprayed you in the face with lemon juice, or blew a loud whistle in your ear; you may end up never speaking again.

sprayeddog
July 19th, 2005, 04:04 PM
In your post last week, there were many suggestions to improve on his barking behaviour. Have you been working through some of the ideas? Have you moved his sleeping area into your BR or is he still segregated from everyone at night? Yeah I have tried those ideas but none of them seem to be working.

No, we haven't moved his crate into the bedroom (because it's not a real crate, but a fenced off area instead) but I already know it won't work ... reason we know is even when we sit/stand/lie down outside of his crate he'd still bark. If we're right in front of his crate and he still barks, then putting his crate in the bedroom will only increase the distance between him and us, and thus even more likely to bark.

The reason he barks is not because he is separated from us. The reason he barks is when he's awake he doesn't want to be locked up in a confined area. We've tried confining him to other rooms in the house and same thing - as soon as he feels he's confined, he'd bark.

On the other hand, we've tried letting him run freely inside the house (for a short period of time only, because he's not house trained yet) and he wouldn't bark even when we're outside of the house. The problem with that, of course, is if we let him run freely inside the house for over 3 minutes he'll either be chewing on some forbidden object, or he'll have peed / pooed inside the house.

If Matty barks for an hour and someone comes to pick him up, he will quickly figure out that he needs to bark for an hour to get attention.No, that has never happened. I am sure about that. We've been as consistent as anybody can possibly be.

His crate should be a 'happy' place for him. You need to set him up for success i.e. leave some of his favourite toys in the crate, when he walks in on his own to get them, praise him vigourously; feed him in the crate, etc. Basically you need to associate the crate with good things and not as the place where he goes when you are not around. I've done all that.

On the issue of bark collars, you mention that you do not want to resort to physical punishment; however, that is exactly what these collars do only it does not come directly from you. Imagine that if everytime you started to speak someone came up to you and gave you a hard flick on the throat, or sprayed you in the face with lemon juice, or blew a loud whistle in your ear; you may end up never speaking againAnd that's its purpose, right?

I mean, I don't mind him barking during the day, or when we're playing (which he doesn't actually do) ... I don't like it, but I can work with him on it. But when it's time to sleep he obviously shouldn't be barking.

The intent is not to put the bark collar on him all the times, but only when it's sleep time. And obviously, once he's learned not to bark, the bark collar can go away.

However, if anybody can suggest anything I haven't already tried, I'm all ears. I am definitely look at the bark collor as a last resort.

I can also give Matty some more time and see if he will grow out of it ... but if he doesn't, I will have to do something about it.

Writing4Fun
July 19th, 2005, 04:36 PM
The intent is not to put the bark collar on him all the times, but only when it's sleep time. And obviously, once he's learned not to bark, the bark collar can go away.
The thing is, a lot of dogs figure out that it's the collar that's causing the discomfort. They either become desensitized to it, or they just wait until you take the collar off and then start all over again. They're not really learning anything this way.

This is an 11 week old puppy - it's still a baby. You can't have had him long enough to discount any of the training methods already suggested. I would suggest you keep trying them - it could take months. In the mean time, get him into puppy obedience. This will help both of you a lot, I'm sure.

Good luck! :thumbs up

Luba
July 19th, 2005, 04:40 PM
You have to be consistent and you have a BABY here!

Don't get the bark collar, you're not doing the dog or you any good.

jessi76
July 19th, 2005, 04:56 PM
all the suggestions we made in the last thread will not happen overnight, or in a week, or 2, or even a month. Some pups take longer to get it.

You say, "The reason he barks is when he's awake he doesn't want to be locked up in a confined area." do you blame him?? Dogs are social animals. You can't expect an 11 wk old pup to behave perfectly and not bark when you leave him alone or confined to an area.

Writing4Fun is right about getting into obedience, puppy school has made a world of difference with my own puppy.

Try the crate in the bedroom, you may be pleasantly suprised.

StaceyB
July 19th, 2005, 06:08 PM
You mentioned that you have tried many things to stop the barking but you haven't tried any one method for atleast 3 wks straight. It takes this long to even know whether or not your choice will work. If you try something for a couple of days, decide it isn't working and go to something else nothing will work for you. This barking is to get your attention and everytime you answer his call he knows that this is what he needs to do to get an answer. Tapping on the crate, looking at him, saying anything is all attention to them. You will need him to go through an extinction burst. The behaviour will get worse before it gets better. During this time if you give in the behaviour will be worse than where you started.
Say your puppy barks to get your attention and you usually respond after 15 min. Then you decide that you don't want the barking and you don't respond at the 15 min mark. Puppy will think that maybe he needs to bark a little longer 20 min. Again you don't respond so he barks for 25 min. If you respond to this new length of time even once you are now left with a dog that will bark for 25 min and not the 15 min where you had started. If you had continued to ignore the bark he would eventually give up because it didn't give him what he wanted. This is the extinction burst.
Most normal dogs will quiet within 30 min. It seems that with your responces it has increased to an hour.
Never use bark control collars with puppies, dogs less than 10 lbs and never use unsupervised.

Dogastrophe
July 19th, 2005, 06:30 PM
No, we haven't moved his crate into the bedroom (because it's not a real crate, but a fenced off area instead) but I already know it won't work ... reason we know is even when we sit/stand/lie down outside of his crate he'd still bark. If we're right in front of his crate and he still barks, then putting his crate in the bedroom will only increase the distance between him and us, and thus even more likely to bark.

Sorry, I had forgotten that you have him in a fenced in area and not a crate.
How about making him a little bed next to yours and closing the door before going to sleep. That way you should be able to hear him when he stirs.

On the other hand, we've tried letting him run freely inside the house (for a short period of time only, because he's not house trained yet) and he wouldn't bark even when we're outside of the house. The problem with that, of course, is if we let him run freely inside the house for over 3 minutes he'll either be chewing on some forbidden object, or he'll have peed / pooed inside the house.

You don't have to give him free run when he is out of his "crate". Put his leash on him and let him play at your feet. That way he will be near you and not feel isolated plus you will be able to keep an eye on him.

StaceyB
July 19th, 2005, 06:57 PM
If you are already having trouble with your puppy getting up early don't make the choice to set him up in your bedroom. Your body starts to wake up before you do and you begin to stir. If puppy hears this he may be up even earlier. Have him set up in a place where the morning sun or street lights don't shine in. You also want to keep him in a place where it would be difficult to hear outside noises such as cars starting, closing doors etc. You may also want to have a radio playing in his room to muffle outside sounds. Keep in on talk radio, not music.
Make sure that your puppy is getting sufficient exercise for breed and you may want to get him tired out before bedtime. Walking is great for building muscles, joints etc but is not so great for getting rid of energy. Run puppies on soft surfaces not hard ones. If your puppy does laps around your home he/she is not getting enough exercise.
A puppy of 11wks has not yet learned the rules of the home, this takes time.

Dogastrophe
July 19th, 2005, 07:09 PM
If you are already having trouble with your puppy getting up early don't make the choice to set him up in your bedroom. Your body starts to wake up before you do and you begin to stir. If puppy hears this he may be up even earlier.

From the post in another thread that was started last week, the problem is not that the pup is getting up early but that they pup wouldn't settle back down (i.e. barking continously) after going for a bathroom break in the early hours, which many of us believe is due to his being isolated in another part of the house.

MIA
July 19th, 2005, 07:10 PM
Just a word of caution, DO NOT USE A BARK COLLAR until you have tried everything else!!! I just got a dog returned that the owner put a bark collar on and now this dog is very screwed up, is scared to bark, is scared to move, is NOT the same do I adopted out a year ago.

You have a puppy, puppies, bark, chew, pee, poo and generally are hard to keep up with, it's up to you as the owner to teach him properly what you want from him.

Good luck, please don't put a bark collar on a pup.

sprayeddog
July 20th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Thanks folks from all the advices.

I've decided to give Matty (and myself) some more time before I try the last resort.

My wife's already got sick now, as her body got weak from lack of sleep in the last few weeks and she's got a cold from work ... so obviously we need to do something about it eventually ... and sooner the better.

This morning we tried taking him into our room instead of back to his room after letting him out early in the morning (and the last few days he's been needing to go at 5am... sigh), so that my wife can get some sleep. We put him on a leash while we try to go back to bed. He whined for a while and was pulling on the leash while trying to run around in the room. Eventually we went back to sleep for another 30 minutes while he was on the leash. When I woke up again he's pee'd on the carpet (and we just let him out!) and was chewing on an area rug.

Needless to say, it's been very frustrating.

We're taking Matty to the vet for vaccination this wkend so we'll probably ask the vet what we should do...

But thanks for the support ... I thought labs are supposed to be obedient and easier to train so I definitely didn't expect a harder time to housebreak Matty than Toby (a beagle). Sometimes I suspect if we went to a bad breeder where the puppies are over-bred and are overly energetic?! I dunno.

jessi76
July 20th, 2005, 11:20 AM
This morning we tried taking him into our room instead of back to his room after letting him out early in the morning (and the last few days he's been needing to go at 5am... sigh), so that my wife can get some sleep. We put him on a leash while we try to go back to bed. He whined for a while and was pulling on the leash while trying to run around in the room. Eventually we went back to sleep for another 30 minutes while he was on the leash. When I woke up again he's pee'd on the carpet (and we just let him out!) and was chewing on an area rug.

This is why you should try a real crate. if he has an accident, it's ok, a blanket is easier to wash than your bedroom floor. (and you're not trying to sleep with a dog on a leash tied to you) Also, dogs are less likely to "go" in the area they have to sleep in. Be sure the crate isn't too big, yet big enough for Matty to stand, turn, and lay down. We put a divider in our crate so our dog can grow into it.

I think getting up at 5am is great - you have a baby in the house now, you will have to adjust your sleeping schedule a bit to accomodate this pup for a while.

MIA
July 20th, 2005, 11:24 AM
ALL puppies are energetic!! This is why I personally only have old dogs! LOL Puppies are like babies, they don't understand the rules in life and cry, chew, dig, pee/poo everywhere!!!

I don't think it would matter what breeder you went to, all puppies are naughty... :evil:

Make a routine, have a very consistent schedule and start training now! The other thing you can do is teach the dog quiet, and you can use bitter apple spray, I have done this with rescues, you have to be quick though; if the dog is crying or barking say "quiet" if he doesn't do a squirt right in the mouth and repeat the command, of course he will be quiet as he has yucky taste in his mouth, immediate praise for him being quiet.

Do not hit, spank or tap your puppy or you will create more problems for you in the future!

Remember training takes time and a ton of patience!

Here's a great website that has tons of solutions:

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/canwehelp/

mona_b
July 20th, 2005, 12:03 PM
He whined for a while and was pulling on the leash while trying to run around in the room.

In my opinion,I'd be very careful with this.The leash that is.It would take no time while you are sleeping for him to get tangled up and choke himself.This is why to me I don't really like this idea.But that's just me...... :)

Also,how long is he left alone during the day?And when you are home,is he mostly in his closed off area?Also,do you have a kong filled with treats to keep him busy?A bored puppy is a naughty puppy...LOL.

I always taught my dogs the command "enough" when they were pups.Not that barking was a big issue with them.When they listened,I waited a few seconds,then I praised them like crazy.

As others have said,do not get one of those collars for him.It should never be used on a puppy this age.

pags
July 20th, 2005, 12:06 PM
I think getting up at 5am is great - you have a baby in the house now, you will have to adjust your sleeping schedule a bit to accomodate this pup for a while.

I hate to agree here - but yeah having a puppy is like having a newborn baby. He's not going to stop barking just because you're tired anymore than a newborn will stop waking every three hours just because you're physically ill from exhaustion.

I completely sympathize, sprayed! We have a 21 month old baby who still wakes up in the middle of the night sometimes... I happen to be 9 months pregnant and sleep is PRECIOUS to me...My husband works a 10 hour shift at work every day and he's tired.. but we also have this 12 week old puppy who isn't always sure when he needs to go out or what time is best to play or what can be chewed on, etc. And BOY can he bark.. and bark and bark and bark and bark.

Nothing is fool-proof with a puppy.. but it helps around here to make sure he's plain tuckered out by bedtime. Lots of playing.. lots and lots of playing... And just like I won't let the baby nap within two hours of her bedtime.. it's a big no no for our puppy as well...

Hang in there and be as consistent as possible. For the first couple of weeks I took our puppy outside to potty every time he barked. Every time. Even if he had just gone out. Sometimes he would just stand there and look at me like "Uh.. I didn't want to go out... Uh.." But I would just give him time to do his business and then quietly bring him back in. If he barked again I would bring him out. I still do this.. but he barks much less.. Because he's learning a bark means going outside. Period. If it's NOT what he wants.. he's much more reluctant to do it.

OH and by the way..
In my opinion,I'd be very careful with this.The leash that is.It would take no time while you are sleeping for him to get tangled up and choke himself.This is why to me I don't really like this idea.But that's just me......

I should mention that the first couple of nights next to us two things: 1) I did not actually try to fall asleep myself until Judge had fallen asleep 2) once Judge was asleep I kept the leash short enough to where as soon as he woke up it would wake me --- But then after three kids, I am a light sleeper. Also - you mentioned he was running around and whining on the leash... This is when you take him out! The idea of having the leash on is to alert you to when he stirs and needs to go out as SOON as he gets up. As Mona has mentioned -- it's dangerous for him to be running around tugging on the leash while you try to sleep through it.

tenderfoot
July 20th, 2005, 04:52 PM
Bark collars do not teach the dog to listen to your request to be quiet and they do not teach that you are in control of their world. I have seen large holes burned into the side of a dogs neck because of a shock collar used for barking. The dog was willing to bark through the shocks as the adrenalin rush took over. I know you are not considering this as an option but if a dog is willing to bark through electrical burning then I am hesitant to think that a sound, an odor, or vibrating will ensure a good result.
Please understand that this is a puppy - everyone has been so great in reminding you of the other methods that have been suggested. He is almost 3 months old - that is like asking a 3 year old child to be perfect - it's just not reasonable. Puppys and kids make mistakes and it is your job to teach them to make better choices. This is a life long job - as kids and dogs are your responsibility for life.
Do not think for a moment that the breeder is at fault here. Some dogs are more challenging than others no matter where you got the dog. This is all about clear and confident parenting - being consistent, loving and patient.

Luba
July 20th, 2005, 05:18 PM
Hello Tenderfoot :D

Puppy = newborn baby syndrome
Parents grumpy, sleepless and fed up sometimes
Pee and poop machines, things chewed on spit up on and all around messy noisy creatures.

BUT thats the fun of Getting a puppy. I miss that stuff now that Sadie is grown up!

They are a challenge and you can't opt for what you think is the easy way out right now, you need to teach and guide to make it better for them and you in the long run.

Puppy days go by fast, enjoy them!! Trust me! You will miss them.

kandy
July 20th, 2005, 06:52 PM
I agree that this has nothing to do with the breed or the breeder. My first newf hardly ever barked, but Hazel barks at everything! The clouds, the wind, the dog down the street, the bugs buzzing around the light, the light.............We've been working with her on the "quiet" but she grumbles when you tell her quiet now. She is definitely a more vocal dog than Lacey was. Hazel sleeps in our bedroom with us and while she was still learning the potty training, we blocked the doorway to our bedroom so she couldn't get out. If she whined or starting moving around, I got up and took her out. I also made sure that she didn't take any naps close to bedtime. Have you tried taking away the water a couple of hours before bedtime? This will help the puppy make it through the night. I'd also puppy proof your bedroom as much as you can and give the puppy a toy to chew on. When I'd come back from taking Hazel out, I'd put her back on her bed and give her a toy. I know that Hazel would go nuts if she was seperated from us all the time. She wants to lay right up against your feet and play with her toy. You can still limit the puppies movements without confining him - the leash in the house (while you're awake) is a really good idea. I agree that bark collars are mean.

happycats
July 20th, 2005, 07:05 PM
A co-worker of mine used a bark collar, and we got into a debate about wether it was cruel or not, (I felt it was cruel, and training was a more difficult but much better solution).
She of coarse did not agree. So I asked her to please, when she got home that evening, to put the collar around her neck and start barking. She looked at me like I should be comitted, but reluctantly agreed.

The next morning, she told me, she did what I asked and imediately threw the collar in the garbage! She could not believe how awful and painful it was, she felt it was no different then kicking the dog when it barked!!

So please, ,before you decide to go this route, ,please try the collar on yourself and start barking! :D

Luba
July 20th, 2005, 07:58 PM
There are MANY people I'd like to put a bark collar on that was a great idea and I"m glad it worked! :D

twinmommy
July 20th, 2005, 10:24 PM
Well, I wasn't going to go there, hee hee, but I did use a bark collar for "Her Ladyship" at one point. :o
It was either that or get kicked out of my appartment,and I had already payed several fines. I totally understand how exasperated you must feel. :sorry:

I searched long and hard until I found one called the "Humane Bark Collar".
It had 7 different levels of intensity. I was worried so I set it on the highest one and put it on. (I know your thinking--"That's what's wrong with her!!! ;) :crazy: )

It really wasn't bad, it also had a light that flashed when it activated (not in the dog's eyes or anything, just a small LED so you can see it working and it doesn't work nonstop when the dog goes on a barking spree--it would just work once for the first initial bark.

the best part is that after a couple times, I wouldn't even charge it (rechargable battery) anymore, and she was quieter just wearing it.

I know she was much older than 12 weeks though.

I know it might sound silly, but have you tried teaching him "Speak" and then from there teaching him "Quiet"?

just a thought...

sprayeddog
July 20th, 2005, 11:32 PM
Thanks for everybody's advice.

Well I'll forget about the bark control collar for now.

I guess Matty's still a puppy, and I'll try to be patient.

If I know he'll eventually grow out of it then I guess I can bare with it for now ... the most difficult thing is I tried all these things but they don't seem to work ... and honestly, when it's 5 in the morning and you're trying to catch up on sleep, you simply don't have the energy to try a lot of things. I could get some ear plugs and just ignore him, but it just isn't the time to work on drills.

Matty used to bark when we get home, but we'd always wait till he quiets down to greet him and get him out. So now when we come home, we can hear him barking once we open the garage door, but as soon as we step inside the house he'd stop barking in seconds, most probably he understands the sooner he quiets down, the sooner we'll greet him.

It's just too bad he doesn't do that after we take him out in the morning ... I can tolerate his barking (though again, it's really annoying) but I just want to make sure I'm on the right track, and given time he'll eventually get it. THe last thing I want is this developing into a habit that becomes very difficult or impossible to change down the road.


On another note, I got a separate question. This one's a lot less annoying. :)

We try to play 'fetch' with Matty, but the problem is whenever we throw something out and say 'fetch' Matty would go after the toy or whatever we throw. But as soon as he puts his paws on it and stop it from rolling, he'd lose interest in the toy. He will come back if we ask him to, and sometimes he'd come back evne without us asking ... which is nice, but he doesn't bring the toy back with him.

I see most people have problem trying to ask his dog to let go of the toy once he's retrieved it ... which Mattry doesn't actually have a problem with. Matty's problem is he doesn't retrieve it ... we've tried different toys and it seems to be the same.

Anybody's got any suggestion?

Luba
July 20th, 2005, 11:35 PM
He can learn by example...have another dog you guys play with teach him. Throw ball fetch return etc...he'll run after the other dog then get the idea when the other dogs not around.

Remember he's just a baby. Would you expect a human baby to stop crying and start putting puzzles together at your request.

Enjoy the puppiness and stop expecting too much from your dog...just have some fun! :D

Where are the pictures?

StaceyB
July 20th, 2005, 11:55 PM
I show my students how to do this for the beginning of teaching pick up toys and put away. Place your puppy on a 6 ft leash to start and get his fav toy. Wave the toy around getting him interested in grabbing it and then throw it only a few feet away while holding the leash. As he goes to it get all excited encourage him to pick it up. Once he picks it up continue to be excited and call to bring it to you. If he is not coming back on his own, without him realizing it start bringing in the leash. Don't stop the praise. Once he returns with the toy get even more excited. Now that he starts to get it you can start adding to the distance bit by bit. You will look like an idiot but it tends to work quite well. The biggest mistake that people make while teaching this is that they start by throwing the item too far away. Some dogs may never fetch but most will.

sprayeddog
July 21st, 2005, 11:39 AM
I posted the pictures in another thread ... you can check them out here (they're on page 2) ...

Click here (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=17175&page=2)

It isn't a big deal even if he doesn't fetch ... but I thought 'fetch' would be a natural instinct for lab retrievers. :)

The dog example thing doesn't really work ... when he sees other dogs he gets all excited and is completely distracted from whatever command we give him. We've signed him up for puppy obedience class where he can be with other puppies, which should help him socializing with other puppies.

I tried to get my wife to show him how it's done though ... I'd throw the toy, she'd go fetch it, and come back and I give her a cookie in exchange for the toy, and she pretends to eat the cookie. He just looks at us as if he's saying "What're you two doing, silly?" :)


Speaking of dogs, I wanna ask you guys a question. Everytime I bring Matty home to meet Toby (my parents' beagle, now 9 years old) Matty would get all excited, and would jump all over Toby. Toby doesn't like it and just goes away. We've tried holding Matty while Toby comes over and sniff him, but the minute I release him he'll start chasing Toby again and Toby will run away. I've let them run around in the backyard and try to let them socialize with each other, but it doesn't really work. When both of them are inside the house, Toby will be barking at Matty, and Matty will be chasing Toby while Toby will run around in the house. We had to eventually separate them on different floors.

I've mentioned this to the vet, and the vet said she's not surprised. She said puppies are obnoxious to older dogs and older dogs don't like puppies biting their tail, puting their paws in his face ... and either of 2 situations will happen. Either the older dog will run away and the puppy will grow up believing he can bully other dogs. Or, the older dog will be agressive with the puppy and the puppy will either develop an agression towards other dogs, or will be very submissive to other dogs. She said she never lets her puppies get close to her older dogs until they're at least 1 year old.

Do I have to separate Matty and Toby? Do you guys have any suggestion on how to help them get along?

Luba
July 21st, 2005, 11:57 AM
I love the pictures!

Your dog is not any different then any other puppy.

They do learn by example..find some labs in your area..join a lab meet up group or something. Have some fun with this!!

jessi76
July 21st, 2005, 11:58 AM
I've mentioned this to the vet, and the vet said she's not surprised. She said puppies are obnoxious to older dogs and older dogs don't like puppies biting their tail, puting their paws in his face ... and either of 2 situations will happen. Either the older dog will run away and the puppy will grow up believing he can bully other dogs. Or, the older dog will be agressive with the puppy and the puppy will either develop an agression towards other dogs, or will be very submissive to other dogs. She said she never lets her puppies get close to her older dogs until they're at least 1 year old.

Do I have to separate Matty and Toby? Do you guys have any suggestion on how to help them get along?

Vets are not behaviorists. Ask about this at obedience class, but my personal opinion is to let them work it out. We let our pup be around MANY other dogs we know, old, young, big and small, and let them work out the pecking order, supervised of course. Tucker nipped, jumped on, pawed all of them, some dogs ran away, some growled back, some nipped back, some played, some didn't care, but none of them hurt him, and seemed to instinctively know he was a puppy, and acted accordingly.

Dogastrophe
July 21st, 2005, 12:03 PM
I have three running around the house (7 mos, 18 mos, and 6-7ish years). Lucy was 9-mos when we got her. She would continually pester Monty (the oldest). He would bark at her and give her the odd growl if she came within his space. Now that she has matured (a bit) he will let her lay down next to him.

When we brought Jack home at 5 mos, he immediately took to Lucy. He will walk all over her, bite her ears, neck, legs, etc. When she tires of this, she attempts to get away. Monty, on the otherhand does not appreciate Jack's antics and will bark at him very loudly when he comes to close (often Jack will dive for the floor when Monty barks at him). On the other hand, at times Monty will play with him. Monty will still bark at him, but that is part of the way he plays.

Puppies are just plain foolish. They will try to get away with anything they can, including pestering older dogs. I would say to let them play (with supervision). When Matty starts to really annoy him, separate them for a bit, but certainly don't prevent him from playing.

StaceyB
July 21st, 2005, 12:45 PM
I have had several vets take my classes because they don't know about behaviour and training that is my job and I don't know all about the heath that is their job.
You seem to expect that your puppy already should know how to behave. Your puppy comes to you with no skills or knowledge about how the world works. They know about as much as a human baby does. They need to be taught by you and by experience. Just because a dog is a retriever doesn't mean he will retrieve. There are certain traits that different breeds may have but it doesn't mean that they will use them unless they are taught to. Nature vs Nurture
Puppies have a protective scent until they reach adolescence that tells other dogs that this is a puppy and to be a bit forgiving their behaviour. Your puppy will also have to learn how to read other dogs, right now he thinks that everyone wants to play like he does.
Assume that your puppy doesn't know anything. This way you won't expect anything from him unless you have trained him.

sprayeddog
July 22nd, 2005, 11:25 AM
I'm not saying vets' are know-it-all's ... that's why I brought it up instead of just follow what she says.

I'd appreciate some advices on how to get the 2 dogs to get along though.

Right now, as soon as Toby sees Matty, he runs away. That's even if I get Matty to sit, or down, and calms him down so he's not hyper anymore.

If I let both run freely in the backyard, Toby will just keep running away from Matty, and Matty will keep chasing him (until he's tired).

When I force them together, Toby would begin barking and start getting aggressive, Matty will keep trying to 'play' with Toby, like jumping on him, nipping his ears and tail and such.

When I keep both inside the house, Toby would avoid Matty and as long as they're not together, they'd be peaceful. Once Matty sees Toby inside the house, he'll start chasing him again, and Toby will runaway.

So what should I do to try to get them to get along?

Toby's never been good at gettling along with other dogs though, and the fact Matty's a pup only makes it worse.

thanks in advance,



ps - i was just kidding when I said matty's a lab retriever who doesn't fetch by instinct ... thus the ":)" ...

jessi76
July 22nd, 2005, 12:38 PM
When I force them together, Toby would begin barking and start getting aggressive, Matty will keep trying to 'play' with Toby, like jumping on him, nipping his ears and tail and such.

Toby's never been good at gettling along with other dogs though, and the fact Matty's a pup only makes it worse.

Why would you force this if you know Toby isn't good with other dogs?


So what should I do to try to get them to get along?

stop forcing them.

sprayeddog
July 22nd, 2005, 01:30 PM
Why would you force this if you know Toby isn't good with other dogs?If you have a kid and you know he doesn't get along with other kids, then are you going to try to help him get along with his cousins when you bring him over to your brother's place, or are you going to leave him at home everytime you go visit your brother?

Dogastrophe
July 22nd, 2005, 01:40 PM
I think Toby is showing you that he is better with dogs than you think! He sounds like he is acting very patiently with Matty (walking / running away when he is able, allow him to get close before giving him a 'put in your place' bark, coming up to him when the little guy final crashes for the night, etc).

I'm not sure you can really make Toby like him (in the sense of wanting to play with him) nor does he have to 'like' him, but, he will have to live with him. Don't play favourites, keep Matty from pestering him too much (you will know when Toby has really had enough), take them for walks around the yard together, etc. Toby will eventually become more tolerant of him, especially as Matty starts to grow up some. While they may never be friends, I'm sure Toby will get used to him being around.

tenderfoot
July 22nd, 2005, 01:59 PM
I don't really care if my kids like their cousins, but I DO care that they have good manners with everyone.
Teach manners and then often the dogs will learn to get along because you are teaching them how to live in a harmonious manner.