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New designer breed *sigh*

happycats
July 11th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Well, maybe it's not new, but it's the first time I have ever heard of it!

A Bassadore!! a lab, bassett cross, I saw one today in our local pet store (I go in there, and comment loudly, how they are all puppy mill puppies) I felt so sorry for him :sad: , he looked like a lab, but had very short legs ( it almost looked like he was deformed) and the price tag was $1895.00 :eek:

When are people going to open their eys and see these are just mutts, ,with fancy names?????

Please don't flame me, I love mutts , but not for profit, and not because they have a fancy name!

Sneaky2006
July 11th, 2005, 03:28 PM
What I don't get is why ppl would pay so much money for one.

How can ya not know you can get a mutt from a shelter and make up your own name for it for a fraction of the cost! Imagine if everyone did that and then donated the extra money to a rescue/shelter.... yeah I guess I'm dreamin of a perfect world.

Oh btw, I've never heard of the bassador either.

Prin
July 11th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Ouch. Poor basset hound. And people call themselves the smartest species. :rolleyes:

Mockingcat
July 11th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Ugh... every dog I've seen like that (a smaller dog crossed with a bigger breed) has invariably had serious health problems, and many have to be put to sleep. :(

doggy lover
July 11th, 2005, 03:37 PM
There is no such thing as a new designer breed, dogs have been doing that since the begining of time.lol :evil:

CyberKitten
July 11th, 2005, 04:49 PM
Oh Gawd!! Not another one , yep, sometimes I wonder about the human race!

SnowDancer
July 11th, 2005, 05:28 PM
My diagnosis is this dog will suffer from debilitating arthritis.

Prin
July 11th, 2005, 07:24 PM
Arthritis, hip dysplasia and back problems are my guesses.

mafiaprincess
July 11th, 2005, 08:17 PM
I saw a dorkie in a pet store. I nearly choked. Who wants a dog called a dorkie......

Wudjah
July 11th, 2005, 10:13 PM
basset hound/St Bernard back when I was a teenager. He belonged to people who had a cottage where we did. They adopted him for the Toronto HS as a young adult. Zack looked just like a Saint, only with basset legs!!! Now who would have ever thought THAT would happen?!?!? They never did think up a name for "the breed"....maybe a bast - ard hound? :D

Jenny

doggy lover
July 12th, 2005, 11:13 AM
Dorkie umm maybe a dash hound, yorkie?

Lissa
July 12th, 2005, 11:24 AM
My friend has a basset-lab mix! But he took him in as a stray (apparently) up in northern ontario.
He has the lab face, with basset legs (slightly longer) - he is chocolate brown and is the`silliest dog you`ve ever come across. By silly I almost mean dumb - he doesn`t hunt, can`t be trusted off-leash, can`t read others dog`s body language and doesn`t have any obedience training. My friend blames it on the fact that he was already 2 when he got him so there was nothing he could do?? The best part is that his girlfriend is a recent vet tech grad (who had to vounteer at the humane society) and hasn`t helped me to convince him to neuter the dog! They have had this dog for a couple of years now - he spent the money on a stereo systme for his car and is now going to lease one - no plans to neuter though! Don`t people think!??

Melissa

twinmommy
July 12th, 2005, 12:01 PM
This is just another example of self-gratification.
"I WANT a certain car, I WANT a certain house, and I WANT a certain DOG to go with it..."

to me that's what these morons have to be thinking....

And yet, many are interested in what is deemed "eco-safe" nowadays for humans...people are more and more careful of themselves..organic diets,evian water,O2 bars!!.and yet dogs are rendered sick and genetically deficient as a result of jerks like this....

Go figure.

Bassador Mommy
February 19th, 2007, 12:36 AM
I have a Bassador!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you dont know anything about them you dont need to make comments--- It just makes you look uneducated! Obviously people are wanting these dogs if they are willing to pay almost 2 G's for it, and also my dog (Bassador) is by far one of the smartest dogs I have ever seen. Very protective over my children, very trustworthy. When you mix some breeds it is b/c the breed along must have sucked!!! Labs are smart and good dogs Basset Hounds are calm dogs, very laid back------ Mix them together and you get a very cute!!! very calm!!! and very obiedient dog!!! If you think it is stupid that is on you but until you know a little more about them, then you making a comment does not make you look so smart . Oh and btw she is extremely healthy and these are not a new breed, they have been around for at least 4 years, but you would not know that would you? Because you dont know what you are talking about. You all have internet go educate yourself and research it so when you run your mouth you dont look so stupid! Hope you all have a great week!:dog:

Dracko
February 19th, 2007, 12:45 AM
4 years is a NEW breed to me.

And, I think the point of the initial post was...is this breed necessary? Why even bother? There are so many unwanted pets out there that are crosses, wouldn't it be best to just adopt one of them rather than have pets breed to create a new cross all for someone to make $$$$.

Also, you can't cross 2 breeds that are so different and not to expect to end up with health problems. There are reasons larger dogs shouldn't be breed to smaller ones, etc. The limbs need to be able to support the body, etc.

I'm glad you enjoy your Bassador, but that in no way makes it a "good" idea to have breed these two together to create yet ANOTHER type of dog that becomes a novelty. There are just too many unwanted pets out there and I can't believe anyone would think it is a good idea to purposely breed an animal to bring more in to the world.:mad:

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 01:31 AM
4 years is a new- wait- it's not even a breed! You may love your mutt, and I love mine, but no way do the sellers deserve $2000 of anybody's money.

Want a calm, obedient dog? Then train your dog and exercise him and VOILA! :rolleyes: I have two of them.;)

Instead of "educating" us, why not go here: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/ and learn something for yourself. :)

Skryker
February 19th, 2007, 08:43 AM
If you dont know anything about them you dont need to make comments--- It just makes you look uneducated!
When you mix some breeds it is b/c the breed along must have sucked!!! Labs are smart and good dogs Basset Hounds are calm dogs, very laid back------ Mix them together and you get a very cute!!! very calm!!! and very obiedient dog!!! If you think it is stupid that is on you but until you know a little more about them, then you making a comment does not make you look so smart . Oh and btw she is extremely healthy and these are not a new breed, they have been around for at least 4 years, but you would not know that would you? Because you dont know what you are talking about. You all have internet go educate yourself and research it so when you run your mouth you dont look so stupid! Hope you all have a great week!:dog:

:sorry: if the comments here have offended you, but your response is not only argumentative and rude, it is misinformed. Perhaps you should check the definition of a "breed" before you accuse others of being uneducated.

From Encarta:
breed: noun (plural breeds)
Definition:

1. from biology: distinct animal or plant: a strain of an animal or plant with identifiable characteristics that distinguish it from other members of its species, especially one whose characteristics are preserved by controlled mating or propagation

2. somebody or something of particular type: a particular type of thing or person, especially one that can be easily distinguished from other similar things or people

Giving your dog a cute name does not make it a new breed-it is a cross between a basset hound and a labrador. Period. Could be the best dog in the world, it still is not a representative of a new breed.

A breed of dog (or cat or apple tree) reliably produces offspring with certain recognizable traits-a lab and a lab give you lab puppies. Your "bassadore" crossed with another "bassadore" would produce puppies of wildly different traits, some favouring the basset hound and some favouring the lab. You could get long-legged hounds and stumpy legged labs or anything in between-all in the same litter. That is NOT what a breed is. There are not years and generations of breeding involved to produce a consistent type of dog.

What you have is the result of someone taking any bassett hound and any lab and mating them (if it was even on purpose). You lucked out with a wonderful and healthy dog. You could just as easily gotten a dog with the worst traits of both breeds and all the health issues of careless and unethical breeding.

Obviously people are wanting these dogs if they are willing to pay almost 2 G's for it

All I have to say to that is to quote PT Barnum-"There's a sucker born every minute". A search of your local animal shelter would turn up any number of mixed breeds at a fraction of the price of "designer" breeds, and you'd be rescuing an animal at the same time.

Signed,
A Proud Mutt Owner.

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 09:04 AM
Couldnt have said it better myself Skryker :thumbs up

Skryker
February 19th, 2007, 09:11 AM
Thanks, Scott! I didn't mean to be quite so cranky :o , but I really, really hate this designer breed stuff. What's wrong with saying you have a mutt?


(And why pay $$$$ for a "breed" that doesn't exist, when 15 minutes of research about dogs can let you know that what you're buying isn't a breed at all? ;) )

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 09:32 AM
OMG what a funny coincidence... yesterday we saw what we THINK is a bassadore-type mutt on the street and we both went "oh geez that poor ugly dog!" really he looked like a fat black lab with stumps for legs! sooo pathetic looking, unbalanced, just so "wrong". if he had had normal-sized legs he wouldn't have looked like a sausage but the mix... :yuck:

i said to hubby "he might be a very good dog but GAWD why the HELL do people breed these things! it's like a freak show!"

feel sorry for both these dogs that never asked to be born, and the suckers that pay good money for these mutts, they can pick up for free at shelters, they're a dime a dozen :pawprint:

wonder who's the UN-educated now... :clown:

Mocha's mum
February 19th, 2007, 09:41 AM
Great post Skryker. I agree with you 110%.

That's all I'm going to say....I feel a very angry rant brewing complete with bad language, and that's not mature or effective....:yell:

Hunter's_owner
February 19th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Thanks, Scott! I didn't mean to be quite so cranky :o , but I really, really hate this designer breed stuff. What's wrong with saying you have a mutt?


(And why pay $$$$ for a "breed" that doesn't exist, when 15 minutes of research about dogs can let you know that what you're buying isn't a breed at all? ;) )

Yeah Skryker, you said it wonderfully.:thumbs up

It drives me crazy when people pay a thousand dollars for a MUTT that you can go to any humane society and get the same dog. Mutts are wonderful animals, growing up I had a wonderful lab-beagle cross, but they shouldn't be bred and definetly shouldn't be sold as a dog from a "Designer breed", instead, they should be rescued.

i_have_too_many
February 19th, 2007, 10:28 AM
I bet that is what I saw the other week walking around town, it looked like a really long lab with short legs and a heavy body, I though the same thing, who would want a dog like that :shrug: (if it was a rescue then it's owners are very kind :angel: ). I know this is a topic that is often on here but apparantly the people who are breeding these "designer" dogs are not on this forum, or wont admit it :frustrated:

A while back I was in the city and went into a pet store to show my daughter all the dogs and cats. I overheard a couple ladies talking about how cute the poodle mixes were and that they are very popular because they do not shed, I just had to jump in. I explained to them that a poodle mix is just that, and most people who buy them for their traits dont realize that one of the parents was NOT a hypoallerginic, non-shedding dog (in the case of a retriever mix). So even though one parent was (although I doubt that any dog is really hypoallergenic) it does not mean the puppy will be, you could end up with a funny looking dog who sheds and aggrivates allergies. They stood there for a moment and then turned to me and said "I never thought about that". Sadly too many people suffer from the same lack of though. :sad:

I also ran into a breeder at a show who breeds labs, she said these mixes are ruining her puppy sales, and people dont realize that in order to get a "labradoodle" that is guaranteed not to shed, it must be 3rd generation or greater, which most are not. That means breeding only non-shedding labradoodles to eachother for 3 generations. How sad. :sad:

well those are my :2cents:

Frenchy
February 19th, 2007, 11:10 AM
You all have internet go educate yourself and research it so when you run your mouth you dont look so stupid! Hope you all have a great week!:dog:
So why exactly did you come here and post this ? :clown: This thread is from 2005

breeze
February 19th, 2007, 11:12 AM
yesterday went i went into a pet store I saw a schnoodle tiny little thing, female I think wanting to get out into the opened. I had to laugh not for the dag but the name !! they want mega $$ for this bread as they call it !! I just don't understand why would anybody do this, is beyond me

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 11:16 AM
I just don't understand why would anybody do this, is beyond me

you just said so yourself... mega $$ :sad:

azaleyes
February 19th, 2007, 11:16 AM
I've heard of a Bassadore, but have seen puppies ranging in crosses from Dalmatians x Saint Bernards and Fox Terriers x Shih Tzu's in pet stores... I think that providing mixed breed dogs with the grouping " designer dogs " is giving backyard breeders an option out for when their dogs (which are usually very poorly managed anyway) accidently breed together.

Dracko
February 19th, 2007, 05:34 PM
So why exactly did you come here and post this ? :clown: This thread is from 2005



Good point. I hadn't noticed that.

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 05:55 PM
some people just feel the need to defend their choices, no matter how uneducated those may be :shrug:

OntarioGreys
February 19th, 2007, 07:38 PM
Mix them together and you get a very cute!!! very calm!!! and very obiedient dog!!! If you think it is stupid that is on you but until you know a little more about them, then you making a comment does not make you look so smart .


Even though the post may be old, there is no guarantee the other pups from the same litter had the same personalities, genes come from both parents, and no 2 pups in the same litter are going to be the same, another pup in that same litter could have ended with a labs hyperness, and be very stubborn and hard to train. The biggest problem when mixing breeds is there is no guarantee what personality traits each pup with inherit, you just happened to be luck with the puppy you picked out, you could have instead have went with a purebred puppy from a reputable breeder that has the personal and temperment you are looking and be guaranteed that is what it will matured into for a lot less money, there is not need to create more breeds to reinvent personalities and traits that already exist.

The bigger problem comes when crossing genes from different breeds is and then inbreeding is that it can result in genetic health problems that makes screening difficult until many generation have been born and tested, which is not happening with all these mixes and everybody and every one is breeding them.


THe one I do not have as much problems with is the Silken Windhound a medium sized long haired sighthound that looks like a small borzoi, they spent 10 years in the planning research stage before breeding and started using champion bred Borzoi and Long haired whippet all DNA tested, it was a very closed door breeding program only selected breeders where chosen to breed, every pup breed a detailed history was kept including where it went and dna testing down and pedigree lines, breeders where chosen across the world to ensure a good strong diverse gene pool, breeding with borzoi and long hair whippets continue from 1975 to 1999 at which point studbooks where closed and a breed standard was set. No other dogs than those from certain breeders would be recognized or could be registered, even though the Windhound has only been around for a short bit, the fact is was a very controlled breeding with extensive documentation it is now recognized as breed in 2 european countries, even today the whereabout of every pup born is known and a breed rescue has already been established here, the US and in europe for the future should rescue be needed. If I decided I wanted a pup I could go into the registry and check the parents out for pedigree lines and to see if any genetic problems occured in the line, the only real genetic problems they are seeing is drug sensitivities which is common to all sighthound breeds and something similiar to (FADS) in humans which causes still births or death of some pups shortly after birth , otherwise the breed is generally very healthy usually living into the late teens.

I can understand why is was bred, the whippet is the only other medium sized sighthound and extremely few have the long coat, and not as full, with the short haired sighthound their skin is paper thin with very little hair to protect then owners have to be careful with them playing with other dog or even where they can let them run, as rocky terrain or shrubs can lead to injuries, whereas the long coats offer protection and allow the owners to have dogs they do not have to worry as much about, so it was bred to be a much more versatile dog in a much smaller package than the other longhaired sighthounds, making for a dog more suitable for many city dwellers.

If your bassador breeder or other mixed bred breeder went thru all these steps and could prove a registry existed and along with pedigree that was well detailed , could prove dna genetic tested had been carried out and original stock came from champion lines, had put a lot of effort and research into the planning of the breed I would say yes maybe your dog is worth it's price tag if not then it was bred strictly for gullible fools willing to part with their money

happycats
February 19th, 2007, 07:45 PM
Thanks all, it seems the educated of this forum, knew exactly what I meant by this post:o

The only uneducated mouth runner here is..........the sucker who paid "2 G's" for a MUTT!!! :laughing:
You and uneducated people like you keep puppy mill's and BYB in business since you paid 2 G's for a mutt, they (BYB and puppy mills )must be laughing all the way to the bank!

Give it a fancy name like "Bassador" and fools like you pay, and the poor dog's suffer!!

Just because you paid 2 G's for your dog, doesn't make you a good dog owner, or an educated person! :rolleyes: :p

:clown: :clown:

Cram
February 19th, 2007, 10:08 PM
The Alaskan Klee Kai was bred similarly. Only one person started the breed (Linda Spurlin in the 1970's) and had complete control over selecting the pups for further breeding. The puppies weren't available to the general public until about 10 years ago and the UKC opened their registry to them in 1999 I think- and closed the books this January. Again, the Klee Kai fill a niche- not for cuteness, but for a reasonably sized northern breed dog for city dwellers (other than the American Eskimo). They have less energy than a big husky and are much more loyal and easy to handle, while still retaining the husky look and independence. All the dogs are followed as well and very few breeders actually exist. They also have fewer health problems because they were bred from health tested dogs originally and any who do not meet the standard are not bred (for example, our little guy because he is a cryptorchid). That is how a breed should be developed, not by every person who wants to make a buck on the cute names/ hypoallergenic hybrids.

Skryker
February 19th, 2007, 10:18 PM
Hear, hear, Cram!:thumbs up

i_have_too_many
February 19th, 2007, 10:27 PM
Maybe with the name of "Bassador" they think it will be a good "embassador" for other dogs?

Just another marketing ploy. I have talked to people who could not give away a litter of mixed puppies they had, but once they asked for some money, they went quick. People will pay for anything, especially if they think it is "special" or "one of a kind". There are many pure breeds that are just as rare, and more reliable. Like those two just mentioned, I have not heard of either.

Oh well, the madness will never end.

trippincherri
February 19th, 2007, 10:57 PM
Well I don't know how to feel on this subject :sad: .
As many of you know I have a Basset/Rotti mix, but before you judge me let me explain why I have him and PAID money for him.

A few years ago I worked in the pet store here in our town, and ended up quitting after realising my boss was a backyard breeder and all animals in the store were from her home. I'm talking EVERYTHING was from her house: rabbits,guinea pigs,a variety of birds, fish, kittens, puppies, degus, chinchillas you name it she would breed it.
I got asked to go clean her "pet shed" one week at her home while she was out of town, and nearly died when I seen how many animals she had and how neglected they were. I tried to speak to her about their conditions and that she shouldn't be breeding animals like that and contributing to the pet OVER- population. She got angry with me and I quit.
I went so far as to send the SPCA after her, but they said that the pets main needs were being met and they could not step in. :mad:

Anyway fast forward 2 years and she phones me up to help her out for a few weeks at the store since she is falling behind and cannot keep staff.
I stupidly agree, and on my 1st day at work see 3 basset/rotti puppies that she has brought in from her house.
They looked pathetic and I told my boyfriend to come and see how sad they looked. They were only 5 weeks old and she had them in this little cage and all they did was lie there. She was asking $400.00 a piece for them!!!
I am a firm believer in NOT selling non-pure breds for money and this annoyed me especially since I also work with our local animal rescue and had been trying for months to encourage her to stop selling puppies.
She said the pups were an "accident" of course :frustrated: !
So after a few days of working there my bf and I decided that we were going to take one home, and I ended up working there only long enough to pay for my new puppy.
I immediatley took him to the vet and he was very sick he had puppy warts and was right full of worms and underweight. I was mad at how sick he was and the vet told me "just think of where he might have ended up if you hadn't taken him home?" So within days he felt much better and I now have a happy healthy 8 month old MUTT!
Yes he is not problem free, I have to watch his legs for deformaties as he grows and he cannot play as hard as our other dog because he can hurt his legs but at least I have done something good for him by taking him on as my responsibility and have educated myself on his breed(s) and what both have to offer.
I do not condone dog breeding of any kind especially when there are so many shelter dogs that need good homes, but I could not leave him lying in that cage another night.
He is goofy looking I can admit that, long bodied with an even longer tail and the stubbiest legs ever, but he is MY dog and I think he's perfect.
He is not a freak show nor should he be pitied for being born it was not his fault he ended up being what he is, and he is not stupid or lacking in manners. I thought this was a community of pet lovers???
Do not judge the dog for what he is, judge the breeder who made him!!!
22716

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 11:02 PM
You may have one that you love who came from not-so-great circumstances, trippin, but you're also not rushing out to tell people to get one either. :) :grouphug:

trippincherri
February 19th, 2007, 11:19 PM
I would tell anyone to adopt a mutt, whatever the mix may be.
I do not say that he is a designer dog or give him some fancy name, I tell people what he is and laugh along when they ask "how'd that happen?".
He is an odd mix, I know that and I wouldn't recommend his "breed" being replicated hence why I got him neuteured ASAP.

I just resent the fact that SOME of you are making fun of the breed and what they look like. It is a mutt!!!
They are not supposed to be proportioned or balanced, or be health risk free, you get what you get.
People who pay a lot of money for mixed dogs are not thinking straight, I agree.... I paid money for mine so I could help him.
I would not recommend buying a mutt because yes then you are enabling the breeder.
Go to a shelter and adopt one, we were going to then we seen what a sad state Shamus was in and paid for/rescued him.

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 11:24 PM
:grouphug: Yours is a cutie. I don't think anybody disputes that. But there are some mutts out there that I feel sorry for. :o

Golden Girls
February 19th, 2007, 11:30 PM
He is not a freak show nor should he be pitied for being born it was not his fault he ended up being what he is, and he is not stupid or lacking in manners. I thought this was a community of pet lovers???
Do not judge the dog for what he is, judge the breeder who made him!!!Exactly my thoughtsI just resent the fact that SOME of you are making fun of the breed and what they look like. It is a mutt!!! You have a beautiful MUTT, thank you for rescuing him :love:

TeriM
February 20th, 2007, 02:51 AM
Trippincherri, I agree with GG, Shamus is an adorable mutt and you did a caring, loving thing by "rescuing" him :thumbs up .

trippincherri
February 20th, 2007, 11:04 AM
Thank you, he is very cute :D .
It was not the mix of dog that attracted me to him but his circumstance, and I have been rewarded 100 times over with love that only a grateful animal could show you,I'm glad we brought him home.

CyberKitten
February 20th, 2007, 11:31 AM
I agree with Skylar and Ont Greys and the others - there is no way one can guarantee what the puppies of two dogs will look like. And I do not get why ppl will spend money - I assume it is them have been sold something and did not educate themselves on the issue. A mutt is a mutt is a mutt - and many of them are cute and well behaved and obedient and are available at rescues and pounds all over North America. I bet even that combination is available - and you'd be helping a Rescue group and not helping greedy and horrible puppy mills and backyard breeders who take advantage of the people who buy these dogs.

It IS about money but is also about people not taking the time to read about what are breeds and what constitutes a dog recognized by the CKC (which does not include these new mutts with fancy names). And there are s many adorable, wonderful mutts who need homes. Why on earth are we creating more???? Especially when no one can possibly know the genetic history or pedigree -which they do not have.

People take a chance buying these dogs but I guess it is their money. What hurts me is all the dogs who need homes and the poor people who lose their money to these greedy sellers. But sometimes you obviously cannot help people, esp like the one who posted here and opted to be rude instead of simply explaining why they bought the dog. I could understand someone saying, we love our dog, we just did not know.... That happens - and you fall in love with the dog. But I'd never buy a dog from a byb, a newspaper ad or a pet store to start with... so...

Anyway.... all I can say is Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

OntarioGreys
February 20th, 2007, 01:01 PM
Trippincherri, your dog is gorgeous. There is a difference with you purchasing, you understood very well, where he was coming from the conditions he is raised in, as you did it as rescue.

Heck I am not against crossbred dogs, they can make as wonder a pets often as any purebred, and yes I have bought a mutt before, the person who was selling, had an accidental breeding and a oops litter. and even when someone does have an accidental oops litter, I would never suggest they just give the pups away for free, there should be at least some fee charged , and pup should have been vet checked, had first vaccinations and dewormed to cover the costs, I have more problems with the breeder that purposely breeds them for profit.

And there are a lot of dogs out there that are purebreds that come with papers that are also bred just for profit without consideration for health, temperment or conforming to breed standard and they therefore are no better bred than your rotti -basset mix Shamus. I would not want you to think this is an attack on mutts but on breeders who breed for greed and people who lay out hundreds for these pups without doing some research first

Prin
February 20th, 2007, 01:57 PM
Yep, bad breeders are everywhere.. According to nopuppymillscanada.com, 67% of the dogs out there come from BYBs. More come from BYBs than puppymills. It's time we all become more aware and stop encouraging them by NOT buying them.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/back_yard_breeders.htm
Backyard breeders, or people who breed their dogs without testing and certifying their stock, produce nearly 67% of all the dogs born annually in this country (Gardner, 1994)

Edited to add: Buying them isn't rescuing them, it's encouraging the breeders. A decent human would give up an accidental litter to a rescue. That way he doesn't profit and the dogs don't go "free to a good home". And if you check petfinder, there are lots of litters ready to go.

OntarioGreys
February 20th, 2007, 05:57 PM
Yep, bad breeders are everywhere.. According to nopuppymillscanada.com, 67% of the dogs out there come from BYBs. More come from BYBs than puppymills. It's time we all become more aware and stop encouraging them by NOT buying them.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/back_yard_breeders.htm


Edited to add: Buying them isn't rescuing them, it's encouraging the breeders. A decent human would give up an accidental litter to a rescue. That way he doesn't profit and the dogs don't go "free to a good home". And if you check petfinder, there are lots of litters ready to go.


Prin, that is easier said than done, most rescues are trying to save animals from kill shelters, and there is already too many of them, they are a priority over pups from an accidental oops litter, which could easily be sold for $50 to help offset the costs of vetcare and caring for. Most rescues do not have shelter they are dependent on volunteer foster families and those are in very short supply, so they cannot afford to waste their resources and would likely turn away most owners who have had accidental oops litters, the litters they would help out is the ones dumped in a kill shelters if they have any room or a volunteer foster family to take them.

Sadly reality bites, so the person who has the accidental litter should be trying to do the responsible thing and try to ensure they find good homes for the pups even if it means they take a loss. But charging a fee, helps to prevent someone who might take them to resell for lab research for 10 or $20 each

trippincherri
February 20th, 2007, 06:02 PM
I never had any intention of buying a pet store puppy,but I had to.

Our rescue group has been actively trying to convince the pet store owner to stop selling puppies and let us bring in some of our shelter dogs,but she won't make a big enough profit so she won't do it.
For her it is about the money not for the sake of the animals that need a chance.
Its a sad reality, a disgusting one.

trippincherri
February 20th, 2007, 06:24 PM
On another note:

Our rescue society will not take Ooops litters.
By taking them we are enabling the owner, why give them an easy way out.
Taking the litter off their hands is not going to encourage them to have their dogs spayed or neutered is it? No it's going to give them an easy option. We will take dogs under surrender for a fee and sadly some people would rather dump their litters out on the highway then pay this nominal fee.
Usually we end up with the litters that are found anyway so in the end it works out :lovestruck:
We are a rescue society to not only help the animals that are in need but to educate our community on how to be responsible pet owners and what they can do to help keep our pet population under control.

And like OntarioGreys posted about priority for other kill shelter dogs than accidental litters being higher,this is true. Abandoned and abused pets come first.

Lissa
February 21st, 2007, 10:00 AM
A friend of mine has one of those mixes - but she rescued him from an abusive situation and it wasn't a "deliberate" breeding (it was one of those, the dog was loose and had puppies)...

He's basically a chocolate basset hound; he's a sweet but untrained dog and wasn't neutered until he was 4! His back is not healthy - can't play with other dogs, jump on the bed/couch/car because his back is so easily injured.:sad:
http://img11.picsplace.to/img10/22/labbasset.jpg (http://picsplace.to/)
http://img11.picsplace.to/img10/22/labbasset2.jpg (http://picsplace.to/)

technodoll
February 21st, 2007, 10:08 AM
but he's a nice looking dog, very unusual and supercute! :lovestruck: sucks about his health problems though... people often just stop at what the dog looks like and don't think beyond that :sick:

the lab-mix i saw the other day looked like a fat, unhealthy black lab with 6" legs, big torso, big head, big tail, big tummy, stumps for legs... he was waddling and had trouble walking cuz it was so unbalanced. you could not look at it and feel anything but pity, it truly was a sad-looking creature. i understand "oops" breedings and feel sorry for that dog, it never asked to be born... but when people breed such animals *on purpose* well that is a whole other story... bassadore, indeed! what a crock! :mad:

happycats
February 21st, 2007, 12:16 PM
Please don;t think I'm flaming the dog! I love all dog's, it's not their fault that some money hungry idiot decided to breed them and give them a fancy name, so uneducated people would pay big bucks for them.

All of the above dogs are adorable :)

itscindy
March 4th, 2007, 09:16 PM
I've just gotta say something after reading so many sanctimonious posts about mixed "designer" breed dogs. I am the proud owner of a schnoodle. I prefer to call her a schnauzer/poodle cross as most people don't know what a schnoodle is and I don't want to be judged by purebred dog owners who have an attitude about designer dogs. I agree that there are huge problems created by the designer dog boom and I realize that by me purchasing one of these puppies, I've just opened up the space for some dealer to bring in another one...BUT

In my defense, I owned a purebred Welsh Terrier for 14 years. We just put sweet Rozie down on January 2nd. Despite my deep love of the breed, I couldn't...just couldn't get another Welsh. What I wanted was a dog around the same size and I love terriers but others in my family wanted a break. Also, in researching other terrier breeds I found that they are all - with the exception of the Welsh - RIFE with hereditary health issues!! I just couldn't choose a purebred dog and adopt all those health problems along with them. The list of ailments reads like a grocery list! Any time I went to a shelter (it's been over 14 years since I was dog-shopping), they were FULL of BIG, BLACK dogs...shepherd crosses, rottweiler crosses, nothing that interested me. They NEVER had puppies and they NEVER had medium sized dogs.

So tell me this...how does someone who wants a mutt but has certain size, coat and temperament criteria and doesn't want to come home from the pound with a small dog that...SURPRISE!!... grows into a monster. I did not know how to go about finding a mixed breed dog of the mix of my choosing without getting a designer dog. I wanted a puppy, not someone else's socialization mistakes. Bless those poor sweet dogs that wind up in the shelters and bless the folks who adopt them. I am a dog lover but I have my needs. There is a NEED for reputable mixed breed breeders, but the purebred dog breeders go mental if you mess with their pedigrees. Come up with a popular mix and someone will want to make money off it. It's unfortunate and disgusting but that's human nature. And probably why we all love dogs so much.

I know my little "schnoodle" might not turn out to be exactly the way I had hoped - I may even get the worst of the two breeds - but I know she'll be the size I want, and I know she'll have the feisty terrier attitude I want and I know that I did the best I could to socialize her and give her a good start. I am frustrated by this topic. I don't mean to upset anyone but I needed to defend myself and others like me who are just looking for a suitable family pet.

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 09:21 PM
There is a NEED for reputable mixed breed breeders, but the purebred dog breeders go mental if you mess with their pedigreesDefinitely not.. There is a HUGE abundance of mutts out there without homes.

I think you misunderstand this thread a little. We're not anti-mutt. Not at all. Just if you want a mutt, go to www.petfinder.com or find another local rescue and get one. Don't encourage these people, who are just in it for the money, to keep on making money off the backs of their dogs. :shrug:

itscindy
March 4th, 2007, 10:02 PM
I understand FULLY. I just want what I want. One step away from a purebred...or two, maybe.

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 10:11 PM
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, but IMO, I'd rather get a dog from somebody whose intentions are good toward dogs than somebody whose motives are selfish. :shrug:

clm
March 4th, 2007, 10:28 PM
I can understand wanting a particular dog to fit into your family. If that's the case there is a purebreed dog for every situation. I don't understand why you would want say a snoodle, or a labradoodle. If you want a large non shedding dog, get a standard poodle, if you want a fiesty terrier, what's wrong with the schnauzer, if you want a small non shedding dog, there's bichons, or miniature poodles. If you want a dog with no doggy odor, then all the arctic breeds fit the bill. It took years of careful breeding to create the purebreds of today, it wasn't done haphazard and they weren't given the names of their crosses, they were given their own names or the names of their creaters. There is no justification in paying big dollars to pet stores for crosses or purebreds supplied by puppy mills in my opinion. The sooner people wake up and stop buying from pet stores the better.

Cindy

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 11:37 PM
Great post, Cindy (clm)! :cloud9: :highfive:

itscindy
March 4th, 2007, 11:42 PM
I would like to agree with you, Cindy...and I do on some levels. I have been a purebred dog owner and fortunately, I chose a really good breed. But research made it difficult for me to come up with a purebred that I was excited about. A friend of mine has a standard poodle - a nice enough dog, but she doesn't do it for me, and she's REALLY nippy and very aggressive with small dogs. My daughter was partial to Westies...have you seen the list of genetic problems those little dogs can have? (I have a friend who owned 2 Westies and she confirmed that they were great little dogs with big, expensive, heart-wrenching problems.) I was looking at Schnauzers too as they are the same size and haircut as Welshies, but with more health issues and - oh, that yappy, high-pitched bark!!! Plus, my family were not excited about the Schnauzers. I spent hours of exhaustive research and found that most popular purebred dogs are rife with genetic problems due to over breeding and in-breeding. The Welsh Terrier was really the only breed I could find that has little or no genetic disorders. (I can't believe the breed is not more popular!! Ridiculously, it is thought to be because of the amount of hand-stripping that is required for show dogs in conformation - and if you don't have winning dogs, you can't make money...which, no matter how you slice it, is the underlying driving force behind ANY dog breeding) My partner saw the ad in the paper for a Schnoodle and it seemed like a really good mix to me, an answer to the breed questions I had and worth checking out. I did some research, found that it's a pretty good all-round mix and when I went to "look at puppies"...well, the rest is history. It's anyone's guess how she will turn out but at least I have a little bit more information about her background than I would if I'd picked her up at a shelter. I am not heartless, on the contrary...I just don't want to inadvertently take on someone else's mistakes. Not that I won't ever, but I don't have time right now to nurture a rescue dog. And I swear that no dog I will ever own will end up in a shelter.

Anyway, I don't want to belabor this. I do understand the importance of not contributing to the puppy-mill problem. It has been a long time since I was dog shopping and I hadn't realized how really bad it's become. I feel bad about this but I don't want to have to defend the fact that I wanted some control over the type of dog I brought home. I just wish there was a way people could get the mix they want without lining the pockets of unscrupulous puppy-mill breeders and brokers.

I'm sure there are some out there who really care about their dogs and ethically breed mixes. Unfortunately they are impossible to find. It's all about the $$$$.

We love our little Lola. She's shaping up to be a fine little pooch. She's interesting, things are not as predictable as they were with my Welsh, but it's fun learning about both breeds and watching her to see which one manifests itself in her appearance and behavior.

OntarioGreys
March 4th, 2007, 11:44 PM
Any time I went to a shelter (it's been over 14 years since I was dog-shopping), they were FULL of BIG, BLACK dogs...shepherd crosses, rottweiler crosses, nothing that interested me. They NEVER had puppies and they NEVER had medium sized dogs.


THat is because when shelter gets a small breed they call up rescues to take them, most will not fare well in a shelter enviroment. Had you checked out small breed rescues you would have likely found a match for yourself ;)

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 11:54 PM
I spent hours of exhaustive research and found that most popular purebred dogs are rife with genetic problems due to over breeding and in-breeding.As are mutts. In this age of puppymills and rampant BYB's, mutts are becoming LESS healthy than their health tested, DNA tested, pedigreed pure breed counterparts.

It's anyone's guess how she will turn out but at least I have a little bit more information about her background than I would if I'd picked her up at a shelter. I am not heartless, on the contrary...I just don't want to inadvertently take on someone else's mistakes. Not that I won't ever, but I don't have time right now to nurture a rescue dog. And I swear that no dog I will ever own will end up in a shelter.Oh, you probably didn't get as much background info as you thought you did. You were just lucky, IMO.. So many people in your situation end up with a sick dog and only discover all the lies after everything has gone heartbreakingly sour.

I have two mutts who are rescue dogs. They're not somebody's mistakes. They are wonderful dogs, ready to learn and to be loved, who needed homes.

I wanted some control over the type of dog I brought home
You can have control over the type of dog you bring home with a rescue too, especially with an older one. EVERY dog is hard to raise. Getting a puppy with "no baggage" doesn't ensure it will be a more friendly, loving pet than a rescue dog with "baggage". I know far more people with breeder dogs, raised from scratch who envy my dogs than people with rescue dogs. :shrug:

And if you can't pick what you bring home from rescue, then how did I get two dogs with the same coloring and the same white spot on their chests? I got exactly what I was looking for and it wasn't too hard to find.
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h213/Princi9009/Jemma%20and%20Boo%20Jan%20Feb%202007/IMG_4679.jpg

itscindy
March 5th, 2007, 12:03 AM
Yep, I searched rescue organizations, 1-800-save-a-pet, etc. but as I said, adopting a problem was not something we wanted. (I say this with the utmost respect for those of you who have adopted and nurtured wonderful, loving pets. I LOVE dogs and I would take them all home if I could. I always left the shelters bawling.) You know, rescuing isn't for everyone. I tried but the bill didn't get filled. I went elsewhere, where I could get the type of dog I wanted to fill the needs of me and my family. I wish it could have been a more reputable source, but I didn't know how to find what I wanted any other way. I did NOT go to a pet store, I knew better than that, but what I didn't know is how many dealers have popped up in the years since I was puppy shopping. I was misled and I'm angry about it...but this just adds fuel to my argument that people who buy mixed breed dogs from dealers and pet stores don't have any other reputable choice.

I know this is a very sensitive topic. (I can tell by the emails that are landing in my inbox as I type this) I really do see both sides of this. I used to be totally on your side but now I am on the other side and more understanding about how and why this is happening. I was REALLY frustrated while looking for a mixed breed. There is no other way. It's TERRIBLE the way dogs are treated in puppy mills and I am sad that I have contributed to this in my way...BUT, the purebred situation is not without its problems and unscrupulous breeders. Maybe we are just spoiled as a society - give us too many flavours of ice-cream and we become dissatisfied with our choices and want bigger, better, more. They should have just stuck to chocolate, vanilla and strawberry and we'd have been just fine. (But what would happen if you MIXED the chocolate with the strawberry?? Hmmm.)

Prin
March 5th, 2007, 12:19 AM
They should have just stuck to chocolate, vanilla and strawberry and we'd have been just fine. (But what would happen if you MIXED the chocolate with the strawberry?? Hmmm.)
hmm... Chocolate and strawberry ice cream eh? I think it's a little more complicated than that. More like vanilla ice cream and lemon sorbet: will it work, or will it curdle and be ruined? It's an experiment every time.

CyberKitten
March 5th, 2007, 01:03 AM
I may well fall into that sanctimonious lot you refer to - I don't dislike designer dpgs - they are beautiful in much the same way any mixed breed dog is. But then I like most dogs. I just do not understand and I ask this with the utmost of respect = why would you pay so much and if you did buy your schnoodle (am I right, schnoodle?) from a breeder or worse yet, a pet store, why would you do hat? I am sure you know all the behind the scenes issues that are associated with a pet store? And while some of the breeders of these dogs are quite credible and care for their dog (one who raises labradoodles in NB seems to treat them like livestock even though the mom does get to be inside while pregnant - not breeder I'd go to no matter what I was adopted (cat, rabbit, dog...), I do not understand why you pay the huge prices. There is no guarantee that you will get a dog whop has all the positive benefits and it sounds as tho you have researched this more than most - since you have lived in the world of purebred dogs and shows et al) and you do not know the pedigree or the health issues associated with the breed. I have to disagree with you re some of the health issues tho I do not know the probs associated with Welsh dogs. (You mean corgis???) I have a friend who raises corgis and he is an engineering prof by day and a dog hobbyist on the side (his wife is usually not too thrilled with the "hobby" because as I am sure you are aware, it is a VERY expensive hobby) - he has studied in depth his dogs and knows their relationship to the very first corgi that ever walked on the planet. I have a similar physician friend who while not having the time or desire to spend amt of money and time absolutely required to develop and show his dogs a credible breeder, knows that his Nfld dog is descended from the original Newfie pooch and has the family tree better delineated than I am certain his own human genealogy is completed, lol

So I really do not think from everything I have read, seen at dog shows and in my communication with credible purebred dog breeders, that purebreds have any more illnesses and problems than other dogs. The difference I suppose is that we have a much better idea of what to expect than if one adopted a cute Heinz 57 dog, we'd never know what the pedigree is so genetic issues would be a problem tho of course one hopes the dogs are going to be neutered and spayed, not "bred" because they are "so cute:" or some equally ridiculous notion that one wants he children to see a birth - you know, all the typical silly reasons that make no sense and have no concern for the animals in the long term. So, if I adopt another beagle or poodle - dogs I have had the pleasure of bringing up - I am more likely to have more info about their pedigree and what health issues their great grand dog had (tho if the dog I am looking at is from a champion, it is unlikely there are any health issues, other than those that may develop from extraneous variables). There is just no academically sanctioned as excellent peer reviewed double blind studies in any credible veterinary medicine journal )according to the two vets, one who is Pres of a prov association, one a renowned academic and clinician who teaches at the Vet School and another who routinely publishes and has been involved in studies at Cornell) that suppprts your thesis that these dogs are "RIFE with hereditary health issues!!: I would require much more information and data and proper research design before I read what your conclusions are.

I guess I am alarmed that those of us not thrilled with this "trend" toward the sale and purchase of these new so called designer dogs which if you are honest with yourself you will realize they are in fact mixed breed pooches - cute and cuddly (not the monsters you seem to think we assume they are - I honestly do not know how you arrived at that conclusion but of it was the same manner in which you came to your deduction about all purebred dogs being ill or having more illnesses or however or was you opined that - but mixed breed dogs with all the health issues and lack of knowledge abut their family history that can be so crucial is a serious problem that these wannabe "trend setters" (the sellers, I do not mean you, the buyer who is taken in by these people).

I suspect this tend will not last - especially when people realize that one of the key reasons for the purchase of these dogs - not as much dander and thus fewer allergies (a problem which may actually be medically solved by people in my field long before vets <g> tho to be fair, that is not their objective or mission in life) and the promise that the buyer will obtain the positive aspects of both breeds that created the puppies. No-one can promise that the offspring of any pairing will have certain characteristics. It does not take a PhD in biochemistry from Harvard to ascertain that! I even am not too thrilled with some of my colleagues who inform their patients - usually adult thank goodness! - that they have an 86% chance of developing metastatic breast cancer post op and post radiotherapy or post chemo!!!!! How does that in fact assist them and more significantly. what does it actually mean in the grand scheme of biochemistry and hematology and that person's life???

The same principles apply to two little dogs - and terriers are small. You may well have two terriers who are in good health and you can even run a panel of blood work and DNA procedures but those results will not inform you whether or not your dog is going to be healthy p- unless you do indeed have access to the parents' health records for several decades and this "trend" is "so new that it is not that likely. After al, what reputable breeder of one kind of species is going to veer off into this kind of new trend, not only jeopardizing his or her reputation but also developing dogs that hardly better the breed and in fact dilute the breed. It makes no sense!!!!

I am sure you love your mixed breed terrier type pooch and he is probably a prizewinner to you if not to the CKC who do not recognize these breeds and will certainly not be doing so. I just hope you did not pay some outraggagous price when you might have found a similar wonderful guy at any Rescue center or the SPCA (tho come to think of it you can find exactly what you want there since people are upset when the dog does not actually live up to their expectations (sigh!!) I realize you will not be one of those- you sound like a true dog lover and I applaud you for that and pls do not think I am judging you personally, It is that whole industry that concerns me!



Just one of the groups who rescue this cross breed of the new trendy dogs ppl give up once they get the notion that they've been sold something they did not plan on, poor doggies!!!

OntarioGreys
March 5th, 2007, 07:39 AM
My daughter was partial to Westies...have you seen the list of genetic problems those little dogs can have? (I have a friend who owned 2 Westies and she confirmed that they were great little dogs with big, expensive, heart-wrenching problems.) I was looking at Schnauzers too as they are the same size and haircut as Welshies, but with more health issues and - oh, that yappy, high-pitched bark!!! Plus, my family were not excited about the Schnauzers. I spent hours of exhaustive research and found that most popular purebred dogs are rife with genetic problems due to over breeding and in-breeding. The Welsh Terrier was really the only breed I could find that has little or no genetic disorders. (I can't believe the breed is not more popular!!

If the welsh terrier was more popular it would have more genetic problems, because every Tom, Dick and Harry would be breeding them without doing genetic testing.

But the key word is "CAN HAVE" But if you searched for a responsible breeder who does genetic testing and breeds responsibly and get a puppy from only them then you won't have genetic issues to worry about. It is the pups from byb's, puppy mills, and less responsible breeders that will have those problems,

You have found some one that is mixing breeds, do you think they did genetic testing on the parents and checked the pedigrees to ensure the puppies produced who genetically clear of disease??? Not likely when they are breeding crossbreds, Did the breeder bother showing both parent as to prove the confirmed to breed standards , more likely not.




Schnauzer health issues
Cushing's Disease, Hypothyroidism, Mycobacterium Avium Infection, (wasting disease much like AIDS) Pancreatitis, Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) , Urolithiasis Urinary Tract Infections, Other genetically caused problems
also include hepatic shunts, (abnormal routing of the blood vessels in the liver) epilepsy, juvenile kidney failure, autoimmune and heart defects. These problems occur frequently enough to be mentioned.

Poodle Health issues

Addison's, Cushings, Hypothyroidism, Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA), Legg-Calve-Perthes, Epilepsy, Hip Dysplasia, Patellar Luxation, Optic Nerve Hypoplasia , Sebaceous Adenitis (SA), Von Willebrand's disease (vWD)


Without health clearances all the breeder has done is produced puppies with more potential for health problems , cross breeding does not make for healthy dogs

Breeding a German Shepherd who carries hip dysplasia with a Golden Retriever who carries hip dysplasia will give mixed breed puppies who carry or have hip dysplasia. Since most genetic defects are common to many different breeds, it is impossible to guarantee that a breeding of any two dogs will not result in defects unless you know the health history of those two dogs' ancestors and/or have had genetic testing on the dogs. Because of this, the most common genetic problems are nearly as common in the mixed breed population as they are in the purebred population.


And it is possible to check on purebred breeders to see if their claims of genetic testing is true by looking for the parents on the CERF and OFA websites or asking to see certificates so it is easy enough to confirm, if they are showing the parents that also can be confirm. When I was looking at chinese crested I also seen their was genetic health issues, some pretty severe and the reason I picked a breeder that did do genetic screening in order to lessen to risk of high vet bills like thousands spent to fix bad knees or rotting femor heads (legge-calves-perthe)

clm
March 5th, 2007, 11:24 AM
Genetic problems occur in all breeds, it takes time to fine a responsible breeder. You should have as many questions for a breeder when you find one as they have for you. Question them about what problems their dogs are known to have, not just the breed but their breed lines specifically, and what they're doing to remedy their problems. An honest breeder will tell you the health problems that occur in their dogs. Just because you get a cross, doesn't mean your not going to get problems. Yappy dogs can be trained to not be yappy. Terriers are know to be nippy, if you want a terrier that isn't, again, time, patience and training. I knew someone who had the yappiest pom in the world, finally she had moved to a place where the yapping wasn't going to be tolerated. She saw a trainer and learned how to stop the behavior and she has a quiet pom now. That dog was over 8 years old when it was taught to be quieter. Kids don't come into this world without having to be taught some manners, dogs are the same.

Cindy

Dealia
March 5th, 2007, 12:20 PM
I recently purchased what people have referred to as a "hybrid" puppy. She is 3/4 pug and 1/4 jack russel ( also known as a jug or jack-a-pug) I paid 500.00 for my puppy and I could not be happier. I thought long and hard about the purchase that I made and came to the realization that pugs have a lot of resperatory problems because their nose are too pushed in. Alot of pugs ended up having surgeory to open their nasal passages. Having even just a quarter of jack russel in my pug makes it so that her nose is not as pushed in and she is able to breath better. I also have a hard time listening to "dog lovers" who will value one dog over another because it is a purebred. At the end of the day it is still a life. People who are such big dog fans should not be so concerned with papers, and more with the companion. My dogs are always healthy and happy, thats what I paid for, not papers. Has anyone ever thought of this, I am a quarter Japanees, native canadian, french and Irish. Does that make me unpredicatble? Does it make me worth less than the next individual who is a "pure bred". I also truly believe that some "hybrid" breeders are just trying to create a more healthy puppy. For example; many whippets have bad joints, by breeding them to a dog like a golden retreiver you will be limiting the risk of joint problems. Therefor potentially creating a healthier puppy. Maybe its time we stop protecting breeds and start protecting dogs.

Cram
March 5th, 2007, 12:59 PM
Hmm... it always annoys me when people assume that people with purebreds dislike or look down on mixed breed dogs. Many people have both, and I would be surprised if anyone on this board hated mixed breed dogs. We are dog lovers and concerned about the creation of mixed breeds because we love dogs and believe that purposefully making these hybrid dogs is contributing to the over population issues that we have and resulting in thousands of dogs been killed everyday because someone thought it would be better to make a puggle or schnoodle than encouraging people to look in rescues. We dislike the breeders, not the dogs, because they are more often than not trying to make MONEY rather than good, healthy companions for people. Please don't compare those of us who care about dogs to racists, you don't know anything about us and the comparison is just silly.

As for making the pugs "better", pugs have breathing issues because they have been carelessly overbred by people trying to make money off them. A good purebred pug from a responsible breeder with a known pedigree will almost definitely not have the respiratory issues you commonly see. The same thing is true for whippets and joint problems. If there is a legitimate need for a cross to occur to bring in a trait to better the breed, than it should be done properly with appropriate crossing and generations tracked for years and years. It shouldn't be sold as a first generation pup with a cutesy name for way too much money.

Papers don't make the dog, they make the breed. Without the standards, we wouldn't have the beautiful dog breeds we have today. And papers mean nothing if you didn't get your dog from a responsible breeder.

itscindy
March 6th, 2007, 01:50 AM
Wow, this has become quite a thread. I'm enjoying the discussion, touchy as it is.

Cyberkitten - you misunderstand me on a couple of points: I guess I am alarmed that those of us not thrilled with this "trend" toward the sale and purchase of these new so called designer dogs which if you are honest with yourself you will realize they are in fact mixed breed pooches - cute and cuddly (not the monsters you seem to think we assume they are - I honestly do not know how you arrived at that conclusion but of it was the same manner in which you came to your deduction

First of all, I didn't mention what I paid for my dog - you are assuming I paid a lot. I'm not sure what a lot is to you. In fact, she cost $500 which from what I can tell, is about the minimum one pays for a mixed breed dog these days! I paid $700 for my Welsh 14 years ago - they cost $1200 - $1500 now. The pup came fully guaranteed - can be returned ANYTIME for any reason. It wasn't the cost though. I was not looking for a designer dog, I was looking for a pet. I don't care that her designer name is Schnoodle...I prefer to call her a schnauzer-poodle cross. I had pored over all the pure breeds and found nothing that struck my fancy. I was kind of considering an Irish Terrier, cousin to my little Welsh, but members of my family weren't excited about the breed and I didn't think I had the energy for a full-blown terrier. Honestly, a Schnauzer-Poodle just seemed like a nice mix to me.

cute and cuddly (not the monsters you seem to think we assume they are - I honestly do not know how you arrived at that conclusion By monster I was referring to the SIZE of the dog. I've known a few people who have come home with what they thought would be a small dog and wound up with a huge one once it was fully grown.

I have to disagree with you re some of the health issues tho I do not know the probs associated with Welsh dogs. (You mean corgis???)No, I mean Welsh Terriers. They look like miniature Airedales, about the same size as a Fox Terrier. (Oh, I miss her!) Here's a link - take a look: http://www.pets.ca/breedprofiles/a/welshterrier/w3.htm

As for the shelters - I'm in Vancouver, we don't seem to have the variety and volume of dogs here. I did a cursory check last night of 1-800-save-a-pet or whatever it is and it was full of big black dogs, mostly adult or senior. Look, I can't go on defending this move I made. I thought the mix would work for my family, we were hurting from the loss of our Rozie and so didn't have the time to wait for the exact fit to come from a shelter. I couldn't glance down the road without tearing up...it had been 13 years since I went for a walk by myself. We needed a puppy for our aching hearts (I know I'm being dramatic but that's how it was) and as it turned out, we needed this one as soon as we saw her. She's a good pup, I don't think I paid too much, so far she's healthy. It was in the researching purebreds and reading the list of hereditary diseases that made me confused. Do I want to pay over a thousand dollars for a purebred that will wind up with all sorts of health problems? I realize that I could get the worst of both the schnauzer/poodle breeds but there's also the chance that I'll get the best in addition to or instead of...who knows?

My point when I started this thread is the point I still feel strongly about; that there is a need for well-bred mixed breed dogs. It's not possible though, given the money-grubbing nature of human-kind. I will never buy a puppy this way again. I am in fact toying with the idea of a second dog and I am perusing the shelter sites quietly.

coppperbelle
March 6th, 2007, 07:16 PM
My point when I started this thread is the point I still feel strongly about; that there is a need for well-bred mixed breed dogs. It's not possible though, given the money-grubbing nature of human-kind. I will never buy a puppy this way again. I am in fact toying with the idea of a second dog and I am perusing the shelter sites quietly.

I am glad to hear you will never buy a puppy this way again. Doing so just encourages those that breed hybrid's to continue doing so taking homes away from the thousands of dogs in shelters. Check out www.petfinders.com There are thousands of available dogs that have been given up. They are the fortunate ones to have been saved by a rescue group or shelter. You will pay less than $500 for a rescue. Ours charges $250.00 and it comes neutered and vaccinated. Great deal!
As someone who works in rescue I can assure you that there are enough mixed breed dogs already and we don't need anyone to breed more.
The sad truth is that millions of dogs are put to sleep every year.

Prin
March 6th, 2007, 08:01 PM
As for the shelters - I'm in Vancouver, we don't seem to have the variety and volume of dogs here. I did a cursory check last night of 1-800-save-a-pet or whatever it is and it was full of big black dogs, mostly adult or senior.As Coppper said, and as I said a page ago, check petfinder. You can even search by size and age group. Here are a couple in your area, just to give you an idea.

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7894144
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7908612
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7975014
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7814206
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7182773

CyberKitten
March 6th, 2007, 09:14 PM
Mea culpa re the link - I took it off. If you can add one, pls do - I was doing it in a rush and since I do not know good from bad Schnodle rescues, I just used the first one that claimed to be a rescue, I did not have enough time to research the issue even if I do know for certain that these kind of rescues exist.

Actually, I find $500 a lot for a mixed breed dog. My brother's CKC registered chocolate lab - who was show quality - but never showed - tho both parents are champions - cost somewhere around that, slighly more tho he may have got a discount since he knew the breeder. Not certain tho? I assumed mixed breed dogs would be in the are of $100-$200. You are correct in assuming I thought you meant I thought you may have paid $1500 - the going price for "designer" dogs here.

Not sure about the "monster" one - I was not thinking about a large dog. To me, a monster is a scary creature. I spend too much time with kids obviously, lol - but I do not think mixed breeds of any kind are scary or unlikeable. I don't see any difference between purebred and mixed bred except for the cost - I would pay for a well bred dog from a reputable breeder but I have high expectations in breeders so reputable to me prob includes about 5% of all so called breeders, I think it was you who noted that even amg breeders of purebreds, some are less than scrupulous (I realize they may not be the exact words but that was the meaning to me anyway) and I think, sadly, that is true. Anyone who is in for the money is not someone I would buy from. It is impossible to do this for the money and end up with well cared for puppies. From everyone I have seen do it, it is just not possible - that is accounting for the shows and the expense involved in that, trainers and behaviourists and vet bills and all the special puppy food, items for the dog - the same and more in some cases as a Rescue or a vet would possess - and there is no way one will make money. Anyone I know has lost money on it - and they do it as a hobby and their dogs are spoken for years in advance!! (Same as for my friends who raise kittens - like most reputable breeders, their Queens rarely give birth after the age of 3 and they have kittens once a year after their first year which means 2 litters but 2 healthy litters and even then, there is the occasional kitten that for whatever reason does not make it.) I don't mind caring for a litter of kittens but I could never be a breeder - I'd end up keeping them all (sigh!!) Or I would want to. I did raise several kittens thru hand feeding and they are so tough to finally adopt - I had a tough time parting with 2/4 - and I kept the other 2!!

I know this is a controversial topic and also know it is tough to find THE dog for your family or YOU, if you are unmarried. And while $500 is more than I would pay for a mixed breed dog, maybe that is the going rate in Vancouver. Now, granted if the $500 is the help pay for the costs of a reputable rescue - and even some of them are not so great or claim to do great things and do not -I might pay that. Emophasis on the "might". I would have to know quite a lot about the shelter and its history.

If he is a "designer" dog, you are fortunate you did not find a breeder who charged you more. As you know, some of them make outrageous claims re the genetics and no shedding and the best traits of both and so on - which are just impossible to promise. I do wish you luck - he will probably turn out just fine, if only because I believe dogs - despite their background - that are raised by good and caring owners tend to turn out just fine - and you sound like someone who really cares about her dogs! :)

I still mourn my "lost" pets so I can relate to you there. I have come to the conclusion one never gets over it - just as in the loss of so many patients I see who die but I did choose a specialty where there are more deaths than most - we never forget them, we move on and take that part of them still with us as we go through life! And try to recall the good times we shared to sustain us thru the days ahead!! Good luck with your new family member!

itscindy
March 7th, 2007, 12:50 AM
Anyone I know has lost money on it - and they do it as a hobby and their dogs are spoken for years in advance!!

Precisely the problem. Good, ethical mixed breed breeders are few and far between. The only way to make money is to breed lots of dogs at once. I bought my Lola from a broker who led me to believe she farmed out her stud dog and then sold the resulting litter. This wasn't as bad as a pet store, I told myself. At least she has the dad (where was he? Out "on the job" of course!) Turns out she's a well-known puppy reseller...I didn't even know there was such a thing. Goodness knows where my little gem came from. After questioning she admitted that her dog was not the daddy but that the daddy belonged to a "friend" of hers. I wonder what sort of start little Lola had as the reseller administered her first shots at 6 weeks which tells me she was probably taken from her mom then. Also she's only had one dew claw removed...or it was torn off. The other front one is dangling, the back ones are anchored. I will have the front one removed when she is spayed. All this tells me she wasn't a well cared for puppy. She came to us shy and fearful but has REALLY come out of her shell through careful nurturing but still shows signs of separation anxiety, crying the whole time she is left alone in the house or her enclosure. She loves kids, loves other dogs and LOVES being outside and she is super smart. We love her and here's hoping. :fingerscr

OntarioGreys
March 7th, 2007, 12:59 AM
Precisely the problem. Good, ethical mixed breed breeders are few and far between.

There is no such thing as an ethical breeder of mutts!!!

itscindy
March 7th, 2007, 01:16 AM
There is no such thing as an ethical breeder of mutts!!!
Okay, now I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree and move on. What you're saying...or at least what I am interpreting, Ontario Grays, is that unless it's a purebred, it should not be. That, to me, is just silly. They're all DOGS!!! There's no more point talking about this one...we've come full-circle, I think!

Prin
March 7th, 2007, 01:29 AM
What you're saying...or at least what I am interpreting, Ontario Grays, is that unless it's a purebred, it should not be. That, to me, is just silly. They're all DOGS!!! There's no more point talking about this one...we've come full-circle, I think!Are you kidding me!? I've already explained this at least twice. This is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe if I put it in point form you'll get it?

- ethical breeders BETTER THE BREED
- mutts ARE NOT A BREED
- Mutts are LOVEABLE and great pets, but should come from RESCUES and we should not encourage UNETHICAL breeders (see above) to breed them for profit by buying them.

Ok?!

And from your post above, you even say yourself that your breeder was a total con artist, so why are you defending them? It's just absurd! :yell:

mummummum
March 7th, 2007, 01:45 AM
I just want what I want. ... when I want it with as little effort on my part as possible." would be the end of that kind of sentiment.

I'm sorry it'sCindy, I can't support your position in the least. Not when you look at the horrific conditions dogs who are enslaved under back-yard breeders and puppy mills must endure. Not when there are tens of thousands of dogs sitting in SPCA shelters, Animal Control Centres, Rescues and Foster Care hoping for a miracle, for someone who will take them home. Not when tens of thousands of those dogs, for whom the miracle doesn't come true, are killed every year.

There is no such thing as an ethical backyard breeder, there is only greed. And with all of those tens of thousands of dogs hoping for a miracle while they are waiting for death, there is no need for "designer" or "hybrid" dogs ~ only patience and a willingness to go "that extra mile" to "get what you want" is required.

itscindy
March 7th, 2007, 01:53 AM
if you searched for a responsible breeder who does genetic testing and breeds responsibly and get a puppy from only them then you won't have genetic issues to worry about. It is the pups from byb's, puppy mills, and less responsible breeders that will have those problems,

Not everyone has the passion you do and knowledge about this topic to know what to look for when choosing a breeder. I got my Welsh from the only Welsh breeder that was in my province. I didn't look anywhere else, why would I? Were they ethical breeders? Who knows? Did they do genetic testing? Beats me! Who has the time to research every breeder and the savvy to know if they are having the wool pulled over their eyes? I haven't seen a single testimonial on any breeder's website that slams the breeder or complains about genetic problems in their dog...must mean they're all good ones. How many people have the savvy to know if the breeder, purebred or mutt, is trustworthy? (Although you've just pointed out that just because they are mutts the breeder is not ethical.) They just want a puppy. I'm not defending puppy mills and brokers. I was naive and I was misled.

My initial plea was that there be trustworthy breeders of mixed breed dogs, you know...one litter at a time, properly handled, carefully socialized, where you could meet the parents, check their disposition, that sort of thing. I loved my purebred but I didn't go over the edge about it, "Arian Nation" style! I wanted a mixed breed, thought it would be a nice change from a highly strung purebred. You can't make the world buy purebreds - they are not for everyone and overbreeding problems have made it worse, IMO. Look at German Shepherds. What a mess.

Prin
March 7th, 2007, 01:57 AM
So are you just here to constantly go against the grain no matter how much we try to explain things to you or are you here to learn something?

Not everyone has the passion you do and knowledge about this topic to know what to look for when choosing a breeder.After reading this thread, you should know better. If you don't, you haven't read this thread. Stop stereotyping about pure breeds and go read the thread.

itscindy
March 7th, 2007, 02:12 AM
And I just want to add...I know I've incited many of you to riot and that was not my intention. I have not seen the puppy mills and conditions you speak of and I know it would break my heart if I had. I would probably be on the soapbox right along with you. I can't stand to look at the websites, I can't bear to see cruelty to animals. When I wrote my first post I was simply lamenting that there was nowhere to go to find a well-socialized, cared for mixed breed dog. I've seen mutts everywhere my whole life and met many, many happy owners. That must be what started the groundswell of these unethical breeders. (Have you ever met a cockapoo you didn't like? I haven't!) People love their mixed breed dogs...of course someone will attempt to recreate that mix which then becomes more popular and so on... tragically it just got way, WAY out of hand. Far more than when I was shopping for a pup 14 years ago. It's unfortunate what has happened as a result of greed. I'm sorry to be part of it and I wish there was another way. I still have to say, purebreds are not for everyone. Shelter rescues are not for every family.

And Mummmmmm: ... when I want it with as little effort on my part as possible." would be the end of that kind of sentiment. that was uncalled for. I have made considerable effort to research breeds and choose the mix that best suited me and my family. Not a purebred. Not this time. Not a shelter rescue.

Kudos to all of you who adopt rescue dogs. I hope to do my part one day when I have the time, space and energy for it. Good luck.

mummummum
March 7th, 2007, 02:40 AM
And Mummmmmm: that was uncalled for. I have made considerable effort to research breeds and choose the mix that best suited me and my family. Not a purebred. Not this time. Not a shelter rescue.

Researching breeds in order to choose the best possible mix for your family can hardly be compared to making the effort to educate yourself sufficiently so that you know "how to find a reputable breeder" and spending the time to find one. The fact that you dismissed shelter and rescue dogs as "someone else's socialization mistakes" tells me that perhaps you know very little about how many designer and hybrid mutts end up in shelters and rescues and some of the purely stupid reasons why.

In my world, getting what I want, when I want it and how I want it should never be at the expense of another being.

Okami
March 7th, 2007, 05:59 AM
I love dogs of any type, crossed or not. With that being said I do not agree with unexperienced breeders breeding the first "cute" idea that comes into their mind. I'm sure all of the posters on this thread arent trying to insult the breed of your dog, but the person who breed it. It's not 100% garunteed that a dog will have problems when you cross it with another breed without researching, but gosh the risk is high. What I really frown upon is what happens to those dogs that have health issues due to the idiodicy of inexperienced mixed breeding. I mean think about it, if your mixed dog was fine, then great, but think of all the other ones that just didn't turn out so well.

While I have nothing against people who purchase from breeders.
I like to encourage people to take a look at shelters before they go to a breeder of any sort, sure it takes alot of time, effort, and alot more research. I'm not trying to stereotype here, but if you're not going to spend just that much time, effort, and research on your new family member, how much are you really care for it?

coppperbelle
March 7th, 2007, 06:17 AM
I am not sure why you are having such a difficult time understanding and accepting what we are trying to say. Mixed breed dogs whether they be a Heinz 57 or a Cockapoo are just that, mixed breed dogs. They were not bred by reputable breeders, they were bred by backyard breeders, someone who wanted to show their children the miracle of birth or someone who couldn't give two poops about neutering their animal. Breeders who breed what you are looking for, mixed breed dogs, do so to make a buck, pure and simple. They don't take into account the well being or health of the parents, or even the puppies. When you buy from them you encourage them to continue breeding. By buying from them you take a home away from a shelter dog sentencing it to death. Before you respond to another post you need to do some research. Instead of putting your head in the sand look at the pictures of some of the dogs recently rescued from a puppy mill. It is not pretty and it will make you cringe but if you educate yourself you will understand where those of us who work so hard to rescue dogs are coming from. Look at the conditions these poor dogs lived in, read about the health and well being of these dogs. Google how many dogs are put to sleep everyday because they are mixed breeds who cannot find a home. Then when you have come back and respond honestly to the post. Until then, I think you are just being stubborn and selfish wanting what you want and not concerning yourself with the well being of animals.

clm
March 7th, 2007, 06:31 AM
I got my Welsh from the only Welsh breeder that was in my province. I didn't look anywhere else, why would I?

itscindy, if you really want a welsh terrier, then you look everywhere possible. The Welsh Terrier club of America lists both American and Canadian Breeders, and the Canadian Kennel club would give you a list of breeders in Canada if you asked them. Just because there isn't a breeder in your province doesn't mean you can't get a puppy shipped to you from another province, or you can drive to another province or state to pick up a pup.

It's this whole idea of people insisting on being able to buy the puppy now that's part of the problem. Once you find a breeder you may have to wait months before you can even get a pup, if it's a rare breed it could be longer.

It's not rocket science to go on the web to find the American Welsh Terrier club or the Canadian kennel club, so please stop making excuses for not having the expertise of other people here, expertise has nothing to do with it, putting the time and effort into finding what you want is what your issue was all about and that's why you bought your pup the way you did (as adorable as it is), and that's why puppy mills and pet stores do so well, people don't care enough to take the time to find a responsible breeder or to look for a rescue dog.

Mixed breed breeders are not ethical, there is no such thing, they're in it to make money period.

Cindy

Scott_B
March 7th, 2007, 06:42 AM
Agreed. Only one reputable Bullmastiff breeder is NS. I had my name in with them, Two breeders in New Brunswick and one in PEI. Ended up with a PEI pup. And I did my home work. Talked to the breeders vet. Called the university vet hospital and talked to them about the breeder. Talked to other breeders about them. They're listed on the Bullmastiff fanciers of Canada. They're CKC registered. BOTH parents have certified hips. I can see their pedigree. And I did most of all this in an afternoon. We drove to PEI twice to see them. And I did this because I wanted to make sure I was going to get a healthy pup, great temperament, etc and because I don't want to support a back yard breeder.

The only reason people breed mixed breeds is because of $$$. They see a market for naive people and exploit it at the expense of the dogs. They don't care about the health, temperament, or where the pups go. As long as they get cash, they're happy. Simple as that.

chico2
March 7th, 2007, 07:26 AM
I'm sorry it'sCindy, I can't support your position in the least. Not when you look at the horrific conditions dogs who are enslaved under back-yard breeders and puppy mills must endure......

Having read all the arguments,what OG says,is the brunt of it and we have all seen how puppy-millers and BYB's operate and treat their animals.
Pure bred or not,all puppies are cute and if you are lucky to find a healthy pup from a questionable"breeder",good for you.
But what about the bitch(mama-dog)who when the last pup is sold,will once again have to produce more pups,often under horrid conditions,that is what we encourage buying a BYB,or pets-store pup:sad:

athenamor
March 7th, 2007, 09:22 AM
When we first started considering getting a dog, I checked out books on breeds from the library, bought training books, general dog care books, and googled the internet. Then we went to the SPCA and the pound. At first we wanted a younger pup that would be able to keep up with my then 3yr old, and hopefully not get agitated easily by her activeness. When we arived at the pound we met a few in the introduction room, and ended up with an older mutt, who was calm and obedient, and who has proven himself to be a wonderful dog with wonderful traits. I was also happy to know I was giving him another chance to live. I was told older dogs are harder to adopt out.

If I was going to look for a breeder I would've researched the breeder as well, get numbers or other form of contact of past customers. I've heard of bad breeders, those that dont pay attention to the behavior traits of the parents or health problems.

I'm glad you found a great dog, itscindy, just keep your eyes open (as i'm sure you will, I've noticed that most of you guys are wonderful mommies and daddies) to any health problems that may arise later on. I think most of everyone's concern is making sure anyone reading this thread know they wont always be as lucky as you have been, or others on this board. The problems they have brought up are common and true.

CyberKitten
March 7th, 2007, 03:30 PM
Oh boy, it seems like this debate just goes round and round and Cindi, I don't think you will find anyone here that agrees with your position.

Firstly, to whoever said there is no such thing as an ethical breder of mixed breeds, I wholeheartedly agree. I was referring to reputable breeders like the 5% who breed for the betterment of the breed, so on and so forth. You all kniow where I stand on that issue. If I ever bought a cat or dog or bunny (Don;t forbget the bunnies :) ), it would be from reseatrch and from a breeder or one I know.

Obviously, as Scott so eridely observed, one does have to do immense research in searching for a particulatr breed and even if you have tro travelm, you do it. You do not go to the first breeder you find and say, fine I'll but it even it is mixed breed because no reputable breeder raises mixed breed dogs (or cats or bunnies). They are either accidents, from a puppy mill or a back yard breeder - even the few who mean well still are not doing the ethical thing!!

I also am a bit taken aback that you seem to think we are rioting. What do you mean? That is a bit condesencing - speaking for myself, I am h=just politely tryinh to point out my position - which is usually the one I hear from mpst etrhical and caring aninimal lovers. No one who knows anything about anials rights woudl support unethical breeding of any kind. I am sorry but I thought you were suggesting you did this one time because you loomed everyhjwre and had no choice. I obviously missed the part where tyou did not do that.

You wrote "I was simply lamenting that there was nowhere to go to find a well-socialized, cared for mixed breed dog. I've seen mutts everywhere my whole life and met many, many happy owners. " Yes there are happy mutts and there are many more at the shelters in North America. I volunteer with a group called Siamese rescue and we get requests and have a meezer express to transport our babies (of all ages!) We habve placved Siamese cats from Pakistan, Britain, Montreal, the Maritimes even tho the group began in Virginia but is now affiliated with suimilar groups across the continent.

The same may well be tyrue of the breed you are searchinm for. And you know, if you take the time, I just bet you would find one in a shelter. 25% of all pets "surrendered" (a word I loathe in relation to giving up a family menmber) are pure bred and thus, there is a good chance you would have fiound your breed. And often, when a purebed is brought in, the fornmer owner has most of ther info you need. Granted, the doh won't be a show dog but if you are into that, you would not be biying a designer dog that is not recognized to participate in such events.

I disagree very much with there being nowhere to find a dog of your breed. If you really want a dog of that breed, you go to where the breed is, That is what 99% of diog lovers do. They research the breed, find the best breeder - and as we have already noted - those are few and far between!! So you may have to travel some - some breeders will sed a dog on a plane to you but I do not like that idea - I think one needs to go and viait the breeder and see for oneself and ask for references like Scott did with the Vet School in Charlottetown. I wuold travel anywhere to find an animal though God knows, there are so many just where I live - and the Maritimes have a small population!! I can just imagine what it is like in NYC or Toronto!!

I found some 10 Welsh Terriers in Petfinder (two were mixed breed with a Newfie and one was a cross with a corgi and one Weslhie was a baby!!). Of course, they were in Montana and Ohio and West Virginia but to me, that is not that far from Ontario - you live in Ont, correct? It is a rather short drive to Ohio from Ontario - I know because I do a lot of travelling with Drs without Borders and that route (even West Va , on route 83 or 81, is not that far for a dog you really want!!)n You can talk to the rescue shelter and they will of course investigate you - in the same way if you adopting a child - which you would want because they cannot adopt to just anyone who walks in the door (though certain ummentuionalble grouos do not do as thoroiugh a job as I;d like but that's another issue- just heard tday from a friend in Oregon who said the rescue shelter she went to see adopted out cats not even spayed or neutered!!!!) That is also true of breeders - one who does not spay or neuter their pet is also asking for trouble and contributing to the problem. Just because someone promises t- even in a contract - to have the surgery done- does not mean it happens, as I have seen happen, sigh!

My point is you did have many places to look and there are many more rescues and if you had called the organization that monitors or officiates over I guess is the better word over breeders of Welsh terriers, then they coiuld tell you what breeders have adults available or puppies that are pet quality or vets or breeders with rescues available for adoption. You have to do so muich homework. It took me two years to adopt my litte Seal Point girl tho I now have four since one came in through a Rescue - and I had been searching for a Blue Point with special needs for a year now - and my sphynx girls were the result of a death of a friend and a living will (Not a planned adoption but I dearly love them and they are well and truly a part if our family now!!!)

There just are NO ethical breeders of mixed breed dogs. Even those who mean well are not being ethical or honest with themselves if they thought about it. SDome are misguided - I'll grant them that but that means they need to educate themselves!!

bassador_lover
November 7th, 2007, 02:16 AM
All dogs were mutts until they someone put a name on them and called it a breed. I have a Bassador and she is the best thing that ever happened to me. She is very smart, sweet and silly. I didn't pay anything for her, then again other than adoption fees I would never purchase a dog... Just as I wouldn't purchase a child.... A Bassador is NOT a mix between a large and small breed dog.. A Basset Hound is a big dog on short legs. They can weigh upwards to 60-70lbs. Any dog can have health issues but at least with my baby girl I know she was not INBRED.

bassador_lover
November 7th, 2007, 02:32 AM
Ugh... every dog I've seen like that (a smaller dog crossed with a bigger breed) has invariably had serious health problems, and many have to be put to sleep. :(

A basset isn't a small dog it just has short legs. I have a Bassador that is the healthiest animal I have ever owned. As with any animal you have to control diet. What makes a pure bred any better? Because they have PAPERS? I would rather have my mixed mutts who I know haven't been inbred. The one pure bred with papers that we had ended up having to be put to sleep because of his seizures... He was an American Cocker...

LavenderRott
November 7th, 2007, 05:10 AM
A basset isn't a small dog it just has short legs. I have a Bassador that is the healthiest animal I have ever owned. As with any animal you have to control diet. What makes a pure bred any better? Because they have PAPERS? I would rather have my mixed mutts who I know haven't been inbred. The one pure bred with papers that we had ended up having to be put to sleep because of his seizures... He was an American Cocker...

Diet isn't everything. You might want to do some research on labradors and bassets to see what genetic issues the breed has so that you know what to keep your eyes open for as your dog gets older.

Seizures is a common problem in cockers. Finding an ETHICAL breeder who doesn't breed dogs with history of epilepsy in family lines can help to ensure that you get a puppy that is as healthy as possible.

As for what makes a purebred better then a mutt - nothing. Registration papers are just paper unless you do your homework and make sure that the breeder you buy your puppy from makes sure that his/her dogs not only meet the standard as closely as possible but also do all genetic testing to make sure the puppies are as healthy as possible.

bassador_lover
November 7th, 2007, 11:03 AM
I have done research. Do you think as a responsible dog lover I would walk blindly with an animal I saved. The Cocker we had was from someone who couldn't deal with his nasty attitude. As for my comment on diet and my bassador that was in reference to someone saying they have lots of back problems. If their diet is control and they don't get TOO HEAVY they don't have as many issues with the back.

clm
November 7th, 2007, 11:44 AM
I can't believe I'm wading back into this....been a nit picky day at work, It makes me want to yap. :laughing:

It's the stupid little names and the byb who create them that get my dander up about the designer breeds.
I would never refer to your dog as a bassador. It's a basset hound / labrador cross, period.
A labradoodle or cockapoo, same thing, labrador/poodle or cocker/poodle cross.

Sure you can get an unhealthy purebred pup from a breeder, but the chances are less if you do some research and go to a reputable breeder.
Designer breed breeders are out to make money, not healthy dogs and I wonder how many of them are trying to get CKC, UKC or AKC status for their new designs.

bassador_lover quote "All dogs were mutts until they someone put a name on them and called it a breed. (Sorry, I disagree). I have a Bassador and she is the best thing that ever happened to me. She is very smart, sweet and silly. I didn't pay anything for her, then again other than adoption fees I would never purchase a dog (I would and have purchased all of my dogs and don't regret getting them from very good breeders)... Just as I wouldn't purchase a child.... A Bassador is NOT a mix between a large and small breed dog.. A Basset Hound is a big dog on short legs. They can weigh upwards to 60-70lbs. Any dog can have health issues but at least with my baby girl I know she was not INBRED. (So are you saying that all purebreds are inbred?....You need to research a few good breeders I think, breeding is complex and many factors should be taken into account). "


I've no doubt that your dog is wonderful, but don't slam purebreds unless you know what you're talking about, and don't defend people who breed designer breeds, they're just not ethical.

Purebred or mutt, makes no nevermind as long as you love them and don't encourage poor breeding practices when you aquire them.

Just my opinion you understand.

Cindy

Longblades
November 7th, 2007, 11:59 AM
To confuse things further, it is possible your "Bassador" is indeed a pure bred Labrador Retriever. Dwarfism is fortunately rare but in Labs what you get with a dwarf is typically a dog that looks Lab but with short little Basset appearing legs.

I was unable to find a link with photos. Of course dwarfism in most species results in short legs but in Labs it is linked to eye health concerns. Do a search for Labrador Dwarfism and you will find many sites devoted to the health concerns.

A neighbour appears to have one of these dogs. She got him at a pet store where they told her one of the parents was a Dachshund. Maybe so, maybe not.

white wrabbit
November 7th, 2007, 02:02 PM
wow i just was reading this whole post.. today is first time hearing of a "bassadore".. interesting was all that came to my mind and wonder what it looks like?? but from name of it i knew basset hound and Lab mix..

my self personally don't understand at all why one would pay so much for a mixed breed??:shrug: and i have seen "designer" dogs on petfinder..

but then you get some of the purebreds that are made from other dogs breed to make that new dog.. i noted some of the rare ones were mentioned but what about the Blue or Red Heeler aka Queensland Heeler aka Cattle Dog aka the Australian Cattle dog in a sense they are mutts as well.. :lovestruck: (my fav dog in the world):lovestruck::lovestruck::lovestruck:

but that rottie/ bassett was truly adorable.. some times whoppsies can make beautiful dogs.. i will admit that.. but why go out of the way to make them.. they will just end up getting old and boring then found in shelters.. take the taco bell dog when i was doing my search for our new addition i checked out Las Vegas since we will be there end of the month and might of found some thing there to take home with us.. they have tons of them there.. i am not sure if they are still one of those "must have dogs" but not too long ago they were... well that is my:2cents:

want4rain
November 7th, 2007, 02:31 PM
breeding two dogs together without a mile long waiting list for the puppies is a BYB. breeding two dogs together because of a fad is unethical.

an ethical breeder will have gone through a lengthy process for who may adopt their dogs long before they are born, will have them certified for known genetic issues and will keep up with all of the people who adopt/purchase their pups. i betcha any breeder worth their money keeps up with their pups at least the first year after they are adopted.

people who breed dogs because of some fad?? nuts. you can find exactly that same kind of dog born on accident and sitting in a shelter waiting to die. likely half of the litter you purchased your dog from is ALSO in a shelter waiting to die.

there are people who are making up breeds all over the place of the exact same dogs dying in a shelter. can you see the insanity?!?!

OF COURSE you love your dog!! she is a dog for petes sake!! its not like you are saying you like YOUR stink bug... who is special from all other stink bugs... who are generally unlikable... in a whole world of stinky stink bugs- yours is super cool.... i mean gee... what are the odds of you liking your dog??

whats my point?? my point is that there is an ethical, well thought out way of doing things and then there is the other ways.

everybody has sex. someone who has sex without some sort of protection against pregnancy.... who gets pregnant and then gets an abortion is seriously irresponsible.

a person who breeds two dogs together without homes for their puppies (all 2 to 10 they can have) is irresponsible.

does that make sense??

-ash

bassador_lover
November 7th, 2007, 02:33 PM
Other than dogs I have rescued from shelters I have never paid for a dog... I would never pay 300 - 2000 dollars for a purebred dog when there are so many in shelters who just want somewhere to call home. I have all of my girls fixed that way there are no accidents. A lady I know who couldn't handle having 2 puppies in the house gave me the bassador... I asked for background on her... She told me that the mother was a basset and the father was a black lab... No she is not a dwarf. Though I would love her just the same if she was.
Personally, I think everyone gets to wrapped up in the names given to crossbred dogs... I dont care if you call her basset/lab, bassador, or a mutt. She is a great dog and I wouldn't trade her in for the world...
Cindy, I don't encourage mix breeding or byb... I have a sister-in-law who wants to breed her bassador. I have tried to talk her out of it. Telling her that she doesn't know what she is doing and doesn't know if the litter will thrive.. She wants to cross her bassador with another basset. I told her she hasn't done enough research and is not improving any breed by doing so.
I do not believe that all purebred dogs are inbred, I just know what I have seen with people breeding in every backyard. I have had some purebred dogs. They were great dogs. All were given up by people who thought they were cute once upon a time.. I just want to say that it's not the dogs fault people are stupid...
As for my house every four legged baby that comes though my door gets fixed.. Makes for a happy home life.

white wrabbit
November 7th, 2007, 03:32 PM
breeding two dogs together because of a fad is unethical.

people who breed dogs because of some fad?? nuts. you can find exactly that same kind of dog born on accident and sitting in a shelter waiting to die. likely half of the litter you purchased your dog from is ALSO in a shelter waiting to die.

there are people who are making up breeds all over the place of the exact same dogs dying in a shelter.


exactly!! (why i pointed out the taco bell dog in Vegas) if look thru the shelters you can find that "designer" breed or a breed you never though to look at either.. and most shelters i contacted in my search out of Provence and out of Canada some have no problem adopting out of there area.. and will help you arrange some thing to get your pet to you..

this way you are not supporting the local byb..

i would still like to see what a bassador looks like...

oh and i have one really really stupid question some one said they had a dog that was 3/4 pug and 1/4 jack.. how do you get the 1/4 of one breed in a dog when it takes 2 to tango? i am too :sleepy:today to think

bassador_lover
November 7th, 2007, 04:27 PM
i would still like to see what a bassador looks like...



If you look at my avitar that is Ruby my Bassador. Some come with Basset ears... My brother and his mother in law have Ruby's sisters one came out golden and the other is black. They both have Basset ears.. All have the short legs.

Writing4Fun
November 7th, 2007, 05:52 PM
...I would never pay 300 - 2000 dollars for a purebred dog... Would you be surprised to find out that the people who breed the "designer dogs" charge upwards of $1500-$3000 for their puppies? So, it's not just the pure-bred dogs that are fetching the high prices. The difference is that the "reputable" breeders are not making any money off of that $1500 because they're paying out more than that for genetic testing, vet visits, and everything else that comes with responsible breeding. The irresponsible breeders - of crosses and pure-breds alike - are in it for the $$ and so aren't likely to waste their profits on trivial things like their puppies' health. :sad:

From the little I've read about you and your pup (who is adoreable, by the way :) ), it sounds like we're all agreeing on the principle of irresponsible breeders. It's just the details that are getting lost in the on-line translation. ;)

bassador_lover
November 7th, 2007, 06:25 PM
Yes, I know and I agree. I get tired of people getting these purebred dogs and all they see is dollar signs. It makes me feel so bad for the poor dogs. Anyways, I love all my dogs (5 girls) all rescued from somewhere or some one. Here is pic of another one of my girls.. I got her from a High kill shelter.

want4rain
November 7th, 2007, 06:38 PM
exactly like the taco dog!! before that was the doberman, after that was the pitt (which is still going strong) and now its the designer dogs. each fad leaves puppies strewn all over. :shrug:

here, we are all preaching to each other what we all feel is right. i just hope other folks who havent though very hard about some of these subjects reads whats said and takes a moments.

-ash

lauriet
November 9th, 2007, 08:24 AM
>>>oh and i have one really really stupid question some one said they had a dog that was 3/4 pug and 1/4 jack.. how do you get the 1/4 of one breed in a dog when it takes 2 to tango?

Second generation of dog: One parent is a of whatever breed, and the other parent is a mix of that breed with something else. My guy's mom is half-poodle, half Lab and his dad's a poodle, so 3/4 poodle ...

bassador_lover
November 19th, 2007, 03:24 AM
I can't believe I'm wading back into this....been a nit picky day at work, It makes me want to yap. :laughing:

It's the stupid little names and the byb who create them that get my dander up about the designer breeds.
I would never refer to your dog as a bassador. It's a basset hound / labrador cross, period.
A labradoodle or cockapoo, same thing, labrador/poodle or cocker/poodle cross.

Sure you can get an unhealthy purebred pup from a breeder, but the chances are less if you do some research and go to a reputable breeder.
Designer breed breeders are out to make money, not healthy dogs and I wonder how many of them are trying to get CKC, UKC or AKC status for their new designs.

bassador_lover quote "All dogs were mutts until they someone put a name on them and called it a breed. (Sorry, I disagree). I have a Bassador and she is the best thing that ever happened to me. She is very smart, sweet and silly. I didn't pay anything for her, then again other than adoption fees I would never purchase a dog (I would and have purchased all of my dogs and don't regret getting them from very good breeders)... Just as I wouldn't purchase a child.... A Bassador is NOT a mix between a large and small breed dog.. A Basset Hound is a big dog on short legs. They can weigh upwards to 60-70lbs. Any dog can have health issues but at least with my baby girl I know she was not INBRED. (So are you saying that all purebreds are inbred?....You need to research a few good breeders I think, breeding is complex and many factors should be taken into account). "


I've no doubt that your dog is wonderful, but don't slam purebreds unless you know what you're talking about, and don't defend people who breed designer breeds, they're just not ethical.

Purebred or mutt, makes no nevermind as long as you love them and don't encourage poor breeding practices when you aquire them.

Just my opinion you understand.

Cindy

I don't need to research breeders I am quite happy with the 5 dogs I have. However, I have seen a great deal of inbred purebred dogs. I was not taking jabs at anyone. Just speaking of what I have seen.

I don't understand why everyone has a problem with the possibility of a new breed through the crossing of two established breeds. Isn't that how other breeds have come about. Such as the Plott Hound.

I mean really look at the chinese crested. that has to be the uglist thing I have ever laid eyes on. I don't recall the mix completely to make this little dog. I do know it has poodle in it.. I think I would rather have my BASSADOR rather than having a "purebred" with a defect that causes them to lose their teeth. How cruel is it to be a dog with no teeth. But, it's part of the breeds traits.

I think that a lot of you guys who don't like the whole crossing issue need to crawl down off your high horses.... I mean honestly other than a few dogs such as the caucasian mountain dog and a few others for the most part you had to cross a few to get your special breed....

BTW I don't care what you call my dog. It is easier just to call her a Bassador. I don't understand why you think she came from a byb. I never said I PAID for her... She and her sisters were an accident. A wonderful accident. For your information I am defending no one. I don't agree with breeding at all. Not with all the animals out there that have NO one to love them. How dare you go out and spend all that money on your special mutt with papers when you could have gotten a great dog at a shelter or rescue. That is some real Vanity. Your dog has no idea it is any better than a dog without papers... IT"S A DOG!!!!! So, what really needs to happen here is you need to get over yourself.... Vanity is one of the 7 deadly ones...

CearaQC
November 19th, 2007, 05:09 AM
Dogs are purebred for only one reason really - to serve a particular purpose.

Long long ago, people bred animals in order to make the very best they could with the most desirable traits to serve particular purposes, and there was no organization like the AKC. But also back then, having a companion pet was the privilege of the wealthy, because the working class couldn't afford to keep an animal that didn't provide something.

Most dogs are bred for a purpose. You have hunters big and small, sniffers, pointers, and howlers, each doing their own style. Plain 'ol companion/lap dogs are useless in my opinion because they serve no purpose other than just hanging out with people and looking cute. I prefer a dog that can actually do something, but that's just my personal preference. But it doesn't make me right and everyone else wrong.

I am not crazy about the idea of willy-nilly breeding. Accidents are one thing, deliberate BYB is another. Now, if someone were to really study breeds, have something specific in mind, a desired purpose/job for the animal, talks to other breeders and experienced people, not in it to make quick cash or a temporary hobby, then fine by all means try to create a new breed of dog. There's no law against it. But it has to be ethical and purpose-driven, not profit-driven.

Then again, there's the argument that something really awesome can happen with a "mistake." Take a look at Ivory soap for instance. An employee left his mixing machine on when he took a break, and when he realized his mistake, he sent out the soap anyway and tried to cover it up. When people began to contact the soap company and ask for more of that floating soap, he had to fess up!

There are several factors involved in the BYB/puppy mill debate vs breeders.

Breeders don't breed constantly. They produce when there is a demand. BYB /mills produce to generate a cash flow and don't really care about the animals. Breeders want to improve the breed, while mills just want $$. Breeders do everything possible to assist puppies in their new homes. BYB/mills say thanks a lot, and you never hear from them again. It's kind of like comparing a Yugo with an Infiniti car.

BYB don't care about animal overpopulation. It's purely a selfish business. The pet industry really doesn't care about animal overpopulation either. In the industry's eyes, people are suckers and will buy food, toys, and accessories for animals they own and for strays. Some vets love it too. Vets get to sell their special vet-only brands of food, recommend all sorts of pills and surgeries and people shell out money left and right. It's all about profit. Once in a while, yeah you'll find a truly gifted vet who's only interest is providing a service at a reasonable price and lives modestly. It's hard to turn away from all that extra unneeded stuff. Advertising has us hooked!! The only vet I ever knew that wasn't driven by profit was a 70+ year old man who did it for the love of the animals and didn't charge an arm/leg for his services, and recommended common things for helping animals other than telling the customer they needed an expensive prescription.

Western society is driven by status, money, and materialism. Remember the HUGE lineups for the iPhone?? I wouldn't buy one of those... it's a useless piece of mass produced plastic that only serves as another distraction tool to appease the masses and keep them from seeing what's really going on in the world. I digress... Anyway, because of this materialism, pets have become a fashion accessory. Just look at Britney Spears. :yuck: Gone are the days people lived with animals that actually worked, because too many of us live in cities, ride the bus, sit in an office all day, and numb the brain in front of the TV every evening.

Canadian band Rush - "Subdivisions"

Sprawling on the fringes of the city
In geometric order
An insulated border
In between the bright lights
And the far unlit unknown

Growing up it all seems so one-sided
Opinions all provided
The future pre-decided
Detached and subdivided
In the mass production zone

Nowhere is the dreamer
Or the misfit so alone

Subdivisions ---
In the high school halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be cast out
Subdivisions ---
In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out
Any escape might help to smooth
The unattractive truth
But the suburbs have no charms to soothe
The restless dreams of youth

Drawn like moths we drift into the city
The timeless old attraction
Cruising for the action
Lit up like a firefly
Just to feel the living night

Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight

Somewhere out of a memory
Of lighted streets on quiet nights...

The real problem is education. I'm not talking about college or university (that's more indoctrination, and little true education - turning people into repeating machines), but self education. People today are too lazy and tied up with doing the latest fad and otherwise too busy to generate an income to make ends meet and are thus too tired to self educate. How much money is used to educate the public about animal overpopulation versus the money used to advertise new pet products?? How many pet food commercials do you see on TV every day compared to the public service announcements on pet sterilization?

Until people change their way of thinking and open their eyes to what's really going on in the world, this materialism will eat away at everything like cancer. There IS hope however. But things will have to get much worse until they improve. So be prepared for some really rough times ahead. As Bob Dylan wrote, "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall."

And finally...love yourself and love others. We're all human, all live on one tiny blue marble floating out in space and we are the only humans we know to exist in all of creation. There is no other place we can go, and so we have to make it here.

marko
November 19th, 2007, 07:34 AM
This is a hot topic and there are strong feelings from both sides. Please let's try to be friendly around here. Nobody learns anything when the mood is hostile.

Thanks

Marko
ADMIN

Frenchy
November 19th, 2007, 01:19 PM
I don't understand why everyone has a problem with the possibility of a new breed through the crossing of two established breeds.


Because it's nobody's business to play and mix breeds. There's already so many breeds , people just have to pic one , don't need to add one just to start a new trend. Because that's exactly what they are : trends. And it shouldn't be , we are not talking about clothes here , we're talking about dogs , living beings.

As for your dog , the mom was a Basset , she could have had many complications during delivery , being impregnated by a bigger breed of dog such as a Lab.

happycats
November 19th, 2007, 01:42 PM
Also no one really knows (or gives a rats behind) about the long term effects of breeding these 2 breeds!! how well will their legs and feet hold up as they get older?! God I have seen some young ones with trouble walking!! Can you imagine them as they get old?

There are ENOUGH breeds out there!! and the only "people" (and I use that term lightly) who like to breed mix breeds, are the uneducated, the stupid, or the money hungry. PERIOD

bassador_lover
November 19th, 2007, 02:01 PM
As for your dog , the mom was a Basset , she could have had many complications during delivery , being impregnated by a bigger breed of dog such as a Lab.[/QUOTE]


Bassets are not small dogs... The only thing small about them that i have seen is their legs..

bassador_lover
November 19th, 2007, 02:06 PM
:sorry:Also no one really knows (or gives a rats behind) about the long term effects of breeding these 2 breeds!! how well will their legs and feet hold up as they get older?! God I have seen some young ones with trouble walking!! Can you imagine them as they get old?

There are ENOUGH breeds out there!! and the only "people" (and I use that term lightly) who like to breed mix breeds, are the uneducated, the stupid, or the money hungry. PERIOD

So, it's ok that no one gave a rat's behind about the bassets legs as long as it was purebred. They are notorious for foot and elbow issues. I guess no one really thought of that when the breed was created.... :shrug:

itscindy
November 19th, 2007, 02:35 PM
I'm sorry but I must play devil's advocate here. I don't want to get into it as I've already had my round with the purebred camp...but...what about the terrible things breeders do (or have done) to purebred dogs in order for them to "conform" to breed standards...like lopping off their tails or cutting their ears. Is this done to further the breed?? I find it disgusting, frankly. I understand that the controlled breeding of dogs by ethical breeders is what you are talking about, but the soapbox is getting a little lofty. Dogs are bred for profit no matter how you slice it.

Just a thought that makes me chuckle: If controlled breeding were in place for people, my dad and mom would NEVER have been allowed to mate (and I wouldn't have to deal with these thunder thighs and impossibly curly hair!) My dad, being of good German stock, would have found a fair frau and they would have spawned a gaggle of towheaded, blue-eyed kindies.

Please understand that I do not advocate puppy mills, though I unknowingly bought my schnauzer/poodle cross from a broker who I realize now probably got her from a puppy mill or BYB.

At the time I was looking for a mixed breed that suited my tastes/needs for size/coat/temperament and was having trouble finding a purebred that filled the bill. Shelters are full of big, black dogs; I wanted a small, young dog and they are like hen's teeth at shelters) I had just lost my wonderful purebred Welsh Terrier but it was time for a change. I couldn't decide on a purebred dog because of the many hereditary problems associated with the breeds I was most interested in. Check out this site to see what I mean: http://www.nzymes.com/Articles/hereditary_congenital_diseases_in_dogs.htm#Section 1

Health issues associated with any breed are on the rise. Puppies from two different breeds could wind up with double the risk of health problems that exist in both breeds...yet again, one breed's health in an area may cancel out the other breed's weakness. It's a crap shoot either way IMO.

I regret the circumstances surrounding the purchase of my new "schnoodle" (sorry, clm), but I am certainly happy with her. (In fact because of what I've learned I have been active at an online site warning others about this particular puppy broker) I would be more careful next time I purchase a dog but I wouldn't hesitate to get a mixed breed again if I couldn't find a suitable dog at a shelter (though I will try harder now that I am more aware of the resources). The idea that all mixed breeding of dogs is unethical is, to me, ridiculous. It's unfortunate that the industry has burgeoned to such a state (puppy mills, unethical breeding practices, designer breeds) and people looking for a mixed breed have nowhere to go that is considered ethical.

I love em all, either way.

happycats
November 19th, 2007, 05:15 PM
I'm of the "no breeding" camp! As long as there are dogs and cats languishing in cages, being PTS, being dumped, all breeding should stop or be very very limited.
"Ethical" breeder's do not exist in my opinion as long as there is a pet overpopulation. I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't really care, It's my opinion, and I have a right to voice it:D
Really, how could a "lab breeder" for instance, feel good and rightious about their decision to breed, when there are thousands of them on petfinder alone?

And to breed mutts and give them a "cute" name so the masses empty their wallets because they "gotta have one" is even worse!!

Kristin7
November 19th, 2007, 06:21 PM
I'm not at all trying to argue or anything, but the reason for some breeders to breed is the dogs they breed well are suited for certain tasks, through their genetics - they have the right physical body type and instincts to do things like trail scents or, in the case of a lab, they are retrievers. Certainly many of them are only companions, but some people also do use them while hunting, to retrieve birds. I do agree though, that there are too many breeders out there. Not sure if there are too many good ones, but the more likely case is there are probably way too many bad ones.

Isn't a dog breed really something that is able to be reproduced, in the offspring of the parents? If two golden doodles mate, what do you get? If you get a golden doodle (which must have some set of criteria of characterisics/traits), then maybe it is a breed - seems like it would have to be true over generations of breeding golden doodles. If you don't get puppies that are very much like the parents (as opposed to the grand parents), then they are basically mutts. Or you can call them cross-breeds, as that is what they are. If someone is really trying to develop a true breed out of bassets and labs, though, it would be a breed in development, right? Is anyone doing this or is it just people breeding the two together? I have no idea.

Also, I notice a few posts back, someone thinks the Chinese Crested and Plott hound came from crossing two other dog breeds (possible but not proven). Looking around on the web, I find that the origins of these two breeds are somewhat murky, and the Chinese crested has probably been around for a very long time. Not sure how accurate this is, but here is some info from Wikipedia:

"Though possibly associated with China since the 13th century, some believe the Hairless mutation originated in Africa, and others believe it may be a cross of the Chihuahua and Mexican Hairless Dog, which it resembles. It is sometimes said that this breed (among others, such as the Rhodesian Ridgeback) belongs to a different species from most dogs, namely Canis africanus; but it is not firmly established either that such a species exists or that the Chinese Crested originated in Africa. It is also possible that this dog originated from two breeds of dogs, one coming from Africa, one from China. It is now believed that the dog has no correlation or genetic relation to the Mexican Hairless dog. It is more closely related to the Basenji. Recent DNA has established that the dog is of African origin and shares genes with the Basenji. The Peruvian or Mexican hairless has no connection to the Chinese crested. " and from AKC: "Chinese Crested is believed to have evolved from the African hairless dogs. These dogs were traded among merchants and sailors thereby making their way to ancient port cities around the world. The Chinese, who seemed to favor dogs of smaller size, selectively bred the African hairless to a smaller size and continued an active trade. Explorers, as early as the 1500s, found these dogs in ports throughout Central and South America as well as African and Asian cities. "


Plott hound history from AKC:

In 1750, two young brothers left Germany and immigrated to America with three brindle and two buckskin Hanoverian Hounds. One boy died on the way but the other, sixteen year old Johannes George Plott, settled in Bute County, North Carolina. He Anglicized his name to George built a home, married, raised his family and bred his dogs. His son, Henry, continued the breeding program and for the next seven generations (over 200 years), the Plott's were mountain men who bred the family dogs and used them to hunt bear and occasionally boar. As Plott men built homes and raised families all over the Smoky Mountains, their dogs became known by their family name and were referred to as the Plott's hounds. During that time hounds of similar breeding and type were raised by other mountain families and were likewise called by their owner's family name.

After many generations, the Plotts needed an outcross. A Plott breeder named Gola Ferguson carefully choose another well respected family hound, the tan, black saddled Blevins, and made the cross. Two of the resulting progeny were so exceptional that when Ferguson bred them back to his pure Plotts, the breed was revitalized. Some members of the Plott family even used these dogs in their breeding program and, because of this cross, some brindle Plotts have a black saddle.

Writing4Fun
November 19th, 2007, 06:55 PM
Dogs are bred for profit no matter how you slice it. I challenge you to find an ethical, responsible breeder who has made any money worth calling a "profit" in their breeding "business".

I don't believe dogs should be bred to rediculous standards. I don't believe in aesthetic alterations (cropping ears and such - there's a difference between aesthetic and necessary alterations). I don't condone breeds that are bred for their abdnormalities (e.g. the Chinese Crested).

Having said that, I am even more apalled by the people who breed any breed or mix thereof for the sole purpose of turning a quick thousand bucks with no regard to the animal's well-being or comfort, simply because some Hollywood starlet has decided that it's cute and matches her shoes, or because there's a rash of allergies in young children so it's easy pickings to prey on these unwitting parents and their eagerness to cater to their kids' wishes. I can't stand the thought of thousands of puppies being pumped out by bitches who are caged their entire lives, never knowing what a "dog's life" should really be like, never knowing love, vet care, exercise ... heck, never seeing the light of day. It turns my stomach to think of how many of these thousands of puppies will wind up homeless when they are not as "hypoallergenic" as the "breeder" claimed they would be, or when they don't come fully trained right out of the box and chew up the latest pair of Pradas. IMHO, this is a far worse atrocity than carefully breeding a dog whose standards I might not agree with, but who is at the very least well-loved and well-cared-for .

:2cents:

ETA: For the record, my girl is a spayed mixed-breed, a shelter rescue. I love all (well ... most) breeds of dog out there, but I could never bring myself to pay for one while there are so many of them in shelters, waiting for a loving home.