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Refusing Food from Strangers

starr
July 9th, 2005, 03:15 PM
Years ago I met a trainer who told me it was possible to train dogs not to take food from strangers. I thought it was interesting but we were not in need of such training at that time.

Recently one of our beloved dogs, a Kuvasz/Maremma was poisoned by an idiot "summer time crowder" riding a four-wheeler. We have been unable to identify him but found out after it was too late, that he slid a dish of antifreeze under the gate for our poor 7 month old pup, to drink.

Thankfully our remaining two dogs, a Golden and a 3 month old Kuvasz female were in kennel at the time and did not drink any. The police believe that while we were away from the property (12 acres of lakefront) the perp cased out the dog, saw that he was still somewhat friendly and gained his trust. He did this nasty act simply because he had been running his machine up and down our bypass road and naturally the dog would bark at him every time he zoomed past our gate. Jerk. No one wants to know what my husband would do to him if we ever caught him.

We've put up posters about the action asking people to come forward with information. We've also put an article in our local paper. It's disgusting.

The bottom line is, that someone .... the same person if he's evil enough, could come by and do it again to one of our other dogs. We're flat out terrified. The trainer up here does obedience training but has no experience with teaching animals not to take food from strangers. Does anyone have any good books, websites, contact information they might be able to share?

We need it desperately.
Thanks

mona_b
July 9th, 2005, 03:49 PM
I am sooooo very sorry for your loss...(((((HUGS))))))

I have always taught my dogs not to take anything from strangers.It takes time to train them to do this.But you have to be consistant.My 9 year old GSD will not take anything from anyone unless I give the ok for him to take it.And to be honest,this should be a mandatory command on the training list.

This is how I did it.

What every pup/dog should be taught is the "leave it" command.This is how my dogs as pups started.I had some food in my hand,I showed it to them.When they went for it,I said "leave it" and got them to sit.I did it again.If I recall(bad memory and it was 9 years ago..lol)I did it about three times.On the fourth time I said "ok,take it"..they took it and I praised them.I also did this by putting the treat on the floor.And again(with leashes on,just in case)I used the "leave it"..And they did.Once again,I gave them the "ok,take it" command.Once again when they did,I praised them.I then got family members to do this,but I said the commands.After a while it got to the point where I didn't have to give them the "leave it" command.They started to wait till I gave them the "ok,take it" command.I tested them with a nice steak.I left it on the kitchen table,went to the store and came back,guess what?It was still there.It took alot of hard work,but in the end,it paid off... :)

Hope this helps.... :)

I have a question for you.And please don't take it the wrong way.. :)

With this jerk out there doing this,I would definately not let your pups out alone.And I would definately not leave them outside in the kennel when you are not around.I personaly would never leave a pup or dog outside alone...Yes my dog does go outside in the back alone at times,but he is trained not to take food from strangers and besides that,he's a retired Police Dog and good luck to those who try and come near him while he is protecting my property...... :D

Prin
July 9th, 2005, 07:34 PM
That's the thing though, when you're not there, nothing stops them. I was told by several trainers the most effective way to train a dog never to eat things whether you're there or not is with a remote shock collar. I don't like those at all-- no dog deserves that, but it may be better than poisoning.

I hate to use you as an example, but this is exactly the reason I really discourage anybody from ever leaving their dogs out unattended. :sad:

I'm sorry for your loss. :grouphug:

mona_b
July 9th, 2005, 08:13 PM
That's the thing though, when you're not there, nothing stops them. I was told by several trainers the most effective way to train a dog never to eat things whether you're there or not is with a remote shock collar.

And what kind of trainers are these to say something like that,cause I have proved them wrong,not with one dog but 3.And I didn't have to use any sort of shock collar.That's just crazy.And you can tell them that for me... :D ..I don't know of any "pro" trainers that would ever suggest that.Or even suggest a shock collar.Like I said in my first post,I can leave a steak on the table,leave for how ever long I want,and I will come home with it still on the table.Hmmm,didn't have to use a shock collar to teach him this.

starr
July 9th, 2005, 08:23 PM
Thank you for your condolences. We are naturally totally blaming ourselves for what has happened to our junior dog.

Yes, unfortunately he was the only one left out unattended. We have an acreage (12 acres) totally fenced except for the lake-side. We've lived here for almost 13 years with no problems...had two former "guards" live long and happy lives. "Kai" was left out as the newest "guard" since we have livestock. I agree with you that an unattended dog is "prey" to jerks out there, but I am torn because we need a dog or dogs to guard our stock from coyotes. This is why we're looking into all the options.

It seems pointless to have a dog to guard from predators if he's in his kennel or the house all night and in the kennel when we have to go to town.
However, now that this has happened our two remaining dogs will NOT ever be left out unattended. We just don't know what the next step will be. We've been totally used to having our dogs "have a life" in the fenced area at night, without a worry, and not locking them up.

I was speaking to a trainer about this whole horrid story today and while I noted the comment made by one of you (I think mona_B?), "he's a retired Police Dog and good luck to those who try and come near him while he is protecting my property......", the trainer said that even the most brilliant and protective dog is at risk when left alone. If someone were to lob a tasty treat laced with some nasty toxin in at the dog, he/she just might eat it. He told me of a story where a lady had 2 rotties who were trained not to take food from anyone but her and her husband. They didn't let anyone near the fence line, gates, ...nothing. One day, two individuals maced the dogs, entered the property, clubbed the dogs and then robbed the home. He also told us about a Great Pyr who was taking care of his home...two men brought their own "weapon", a fighting dog, to take care of the Pyr, while they did their nasty deed.

What we are coming to terms with is that no matter how well trained the "guard" we have, our dogs are at risk. We're in the process of having video surveillance set up on the property and will do anything to keep our animals safe. We just hope it doesn't mean taking away their freedom in the process.

Any more advice, keep it coming. We aren't taking any offence to the comments. We're naive about this. Figured "fenced yard keeps dog safe". For 25 years we've never had a problem, until now. Time to change our thinking, I guess. We'll do what it takes.

Another question has come to mind...do any of you live in the country? We do...about 25 km from the nearest tiny village and 2.5 hours from the next town. We're nowhere near a city, and almost no one around here even bothers to confine their dogs even to a "yard" (we're one of the few), let alone kennel them. When we got our recent pup, who is currently 4 months, the breeder said she wasn't "kennel trained". The breeder had a shed and enclosure for the mom dog and pups for when they were first born but after they were weaned, all 10 pups, mom, grandfather and great-aunt were free on the property, night and day. These people also have sheep and llama. They had never confined their dogs and so our youngest pup had to literally be trained to accept kenneling. When I spoke to them about this problem they were shocked and said that in over 20 years of breeding they've never locked up their dogs and were horrified that we were being told to do so. And yes, this is a reputable breeder with piles of references, accolades from the club and prominent status in shows. Of course, they don't live in a lakeside community with tourist season in the summer.

Don't get me wrong, we totally understand that we have good reason to after what happened to poor little Kaizer. :( I'm just curious about your comments in relation to what "farm" and "country" people think about confinement. Most of the individuals up here we've spoken to are horrified about what happened. The RCMP said that the last case of poisoning anywhere near here was 2 years ago and before that more than 5 years past. So you can see why we're confused. We agree with the issue of "non-supervision" but we also have people telling us that we're cruel to not let our dogs enjoy their own land.
Sigh.

Thanks for reading and responding. Like I said, give me all the opinions you can muster. Everything helps.

Starr and family

Prin
July 9th, 2005, 08:24 PM
Even if your dog gets out of the house alone and bumps into kids with fries?

My dogs won't touch cookies right in front of their face in the house or in a car, but when we're at the park and strangers have cookies, it's just not the same. Taking the cookie is a reward in itself. On top of that Boo was a stray, so he ate tons of critters before we got him. He knows what tasty food is to be had outside.

tenderfoot
July 10th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Every dog is different. Some are great about not taking food from strangers others would sell their grandmother for any tidbit from anyone. It's like asking children not to eat the cookies you baked while you run to the store. The respectful good kids will obey and the more challenging, younger or less respectful kids will grab a cookie. And we are talking about dogs here not kids. This is an animal, and food means survival in their book - so it is a hard temptation to fight.
This is a live and learn story. Do not blame yourself because you didn't think there was someone so cruel on this planet that would kill a dog with poison. Because you trusted others to have the hearts and morals that you have. Unfortuanately this was an expensive lesson and though I would hate for you to lose faith in humanity - I wouldn't blame you a bit.
We live on a few acres in the mountains. We could easily have our five dogs running free on the property 24-7, but we do not. Not only does it often lead to behavior problems (too much freedom), but I don't want my neighbors to be bothered by my dogs for any reason. I am also not willing to take risks with my dogs lives - whether it be from man or animal.
Dogs belong with their people (pack) - that's where they are happiest. Time on the acreage can easily be with you by their side. You wouldn't leave your little children on the acreage unattended - same for the dogs. The days of Lassie running on the farm and living the good life might be over in todays society - just as it's tougher to give children the freedoms we once took for granted. There are just too many sick people out there.
I am so sorry for your loss - I can not imagine how much it hurts. :sad:

Safyre
July 10th, 2005, 12:58 AM
I'm actually really interested in this thread
If the OP uses her dogs to guard her flock, and the dog was poisioned while doing so, what is the suggestion to guard the flock from coyotes?
Dogs were meant to work, so she has given them a job ...

to Star, I would suggest checing with other farmers in your area as to how they have trained their animals, just a suggestion, as most of on here are 'city slickers' and may not fully understand your situation.

Sneaky2006
July 10th, 2005, 02:01 AM
I left it on the kitchen table,went to the store and came back,guess what?It was still there.It took alot of hard work,but in the end,it paid off... Please don't think I am being rude, I am truly curious with my questions. What would happen if you put the steak on the floor in the corner and went to the store? Because if a stranger was giving food, they probably wouldn't be giving it to them somewhere like a table that they're not allowed to eat from anyway. But the floor or ground would be anyone's game, right? (according to the dogs anyway :D )

Cactus Flower
July 10th, 2005, 02:23 AM
I'm very sorry this happened! How terrible!

Safyre, good question! I was wondering the same thing, regarding working dogs and protecting the flock.

We're in the process of having video surveillance set up on the property

Starr, I think this is a great idea. Before I read that, I was going to post the suggestion that you set up video cameras. If you are not yet able to set up real cameras, you could also set up "dummy" cameras where they are very obvious. Nobody will know that they don't work, but they will likely deter any more lurkers around your fence.

Cactus Flower
July 10th, 2005, 02:35 AM
I truly believe that any dog will eat a steak that is tossed over the fence. Maybe not while they are actively snarling at you and protecting the property, but after you leave, for sure.

BUT- I just had a few ideas!

Could you plant thorny bushes (the green thumbs on this site can name a few, I'm sure) around the outside perimeter of your fence, so no one can get close to it without being pricked?

OR (and forgive me, please, if anyone thinks that this is cruel, but I'd do it for my own dogs if I thought it would save their lives) maybe you could lace a bunch of yummy treats with something awful like natural bitters, and randomly throw them over the fence. Don't let them see who is throwing them. Bitters won't hurt the dogs at all, but one lick and they'll be put off of the food immediately. If you do this often, and with different foods, they MIGHT just get the idea that food that comes over the fence is ALL BAD, and start ignoring the offers completely.

What do you think?

Sneaky2006
July 10th, 2005, 02:41 AM
OR (and forgive me, please, if anyone thinks that this is cruel, but I'd do it for my own dogs if I thought it would save their lives) maybe you could lace a bunch of yummy treats with something awful like natural bitters, and randomly throw them over the fence. Don't let them see who is throwing them. Bitters won't hurt the dogs at all, but one lick and they'll be put off of the food immediately. If you do this often, and with different foods, they MIGHT just get the idea that food that comes over the fence is ALL BAD, and start ignoring the offers completely. I think that is a great idea!!!!

Safyre
July 10th, 2005, 02:47 AM
Quote:
OR (and forgive me, please, if anyone thinks that this is cruel, but I'd do it for my own dogs if I thought it would save their lives) maybe you could lace a bunch of yummy treats with something awful like natural bitters, and randomly throw them over the fence. Don't let them see who is throwing them. Bitters won't hurt the dogs at all, but one lick and they'll be put off of the food immediately. If you do this often, and with different foods, they MIGHT just get the idea that food that comes over the fence is ALL BAD, and start ignoring the offers completely.

I think that is a great idea!!!!

I agree, it is a great idea!

Prin
July 10th, 2005, 10:59 AM
I assume that you can't smell the bitter stuff though, right? If so, then that'd be great. I ask because Jemma is an avid food sniffer. Cookies I had were about to get moldy and she wouldn't touch them, while Boo was gobbling them down...

mona_b
July 10th, 2005, 11:19 AM
Please don't think I am being rude, I am truly curious with my questions. What would happen if you put the steak on the floor in the corner and went to the store? Because if a stranger was giving food, they probably wouldn't be giving it to them somewhere like a table that they're not allowed to eat from anyway. But the floor or ground would be anyone's game, right? (according to the dogs anyway :D )

I can actually put it anywhere.Floor,couch,any of the bedrooms,bathroom,backyard.You name it.Tron will not touch it.And it doesn't have to be steak.It could be any type of food.See alot of the K9 Police dogs that I know are actually trained like this.Remember,these dogs are part of the family,and some people are not to crazy about these dogs.So yes they will try and poison them.

Yes CF,any dog would,but one who is trained not to won't.As part of his training he was tested.I did have friends,and even their friends that he didn't know toss food over.This also went for Yukon.I did have both of them together as pups.It was just that Tron was with me only for about 18 months.Then went to my brother.

Yes Prin,even kids with fries.... :D ...But the thins is,he has never gotten out of the.Not in 9 years.I woked very hard with my dogs.But remember,I also had them since they were 3 months old. :)

I agree starr,andy dog is at risk when left out alone.But this is one thing I don't do.He is out for periods of time to do his thing.But someone is home.

As for farms.My sister is on one.She has 3 Siberian Huskies and a Border Collie.They do have free run of the property.they have been for 8-9 years.The only working one is Abbey the BC.She helps with the cows.Thank god there are no loonies who have tried to poison them.Her neighbour has a Kuvasz and 2 Pyres.They do stay out all night to protect their flock.As we all know this is what these breeds do.Once again,no one has tried to poison them.Do I think this farmer is cruel?No not at all.These are "flock"dogs.They are bred to gaurd the flock.This is what they do.I grew up on my aunts farm.She had 78 acres,5 Great Danes,a St.Bernard,and a Newfie.They spent alot of their time roaming free on their property.And I think it's great that they were able to do that.Yes they need their freedom too.And not one of these dogs wondered of the property.And neither has my sisters dogs.And I am going to be honest and say none of the dogs I have mentioned ever had or have behavior problems.These were and are dogs that know the bounderies.I was even bringing my previous GSD Cujo to my aunts farm.He even enjoyed roaming the farm with the other dogs.Not the ones I mentioned.I was much younger when my aunt had them.So you can say I am both a city/countery slicker.... :D

starr,I have to agree with the question about talking to the other farmers as to how they trained their dogs.They would definately know.

As for the camera,that's another great idea.Once you catch this monster he should be charged..... :evil:

Oops,sorry for the long post....LOL

Lissa
July 10th, 2005, 01:04 PM
I must first say how sorry I am for your loss and how unfair it is that you must constantly worry about the safety of your dogs.

My dog would never ignore food, it`s just impossible for him! I don`t know any dog that would but I am amazed to hear that there are some out there!

I used to live in the country but didn`t have a dog at the time. My neighbours however did have dogs - not working dogs though. There dogs had the run of the property but the lack of training ruined any potential these dogs might have had. The dogs could do anything they wanted and ended up walking along the roads, venturing onto other farmer`s properties and barking incessantly!

Right now, I am house sitting for a friend and she lives in the country. I used to tie up my dog and let him sniff on-leash while I watched from the porch. Now that he has been through "extensive" training I just open the door and trust him. He stays on the "open" part of the property and doesn`t venture into the woods. I would let my dog roam free with supervision if I still lived in the country. If I couldn`t watch him or had to go out, he would stay inside the house. I would never kennel him outside because it would turn him into a "barker".

I agree that in the country there seems to be a different mentality about how you keep your animals. People that I used to know wanted barn cats and then when the population got to large would stop feeding them, shoot them and be happy when some got run over by cars! But of course, they refused to spay or neuter. It`s sick! And with dogs, they never went to the vet and when they were too old they would shoot them. All of the country dogs I knew were allowed to wander around withou supervision.

Melissa

starr
July 10th, 2005, 04:14 PM
I appreciate your comment SO much. I think some people in here got the impression that we just let our babies run loose like strays. This is not the case. We live in a farming community a lonnnng way from any major cities. Our dogs are our livestock defenders. We have goats, chickens and horses. They are also outside with our children, and us...in case bears or cougars show up. But we are WELL fenced and they do not run around the community. They stay home, and home is where this nasty event occurred...through a fenceline or gate, we believe.

To the other poster whose name I forget.... No, we don't leave our children "unattended" outside but yes, they do play on their swings and in the sandbox with mommy running in and out to get drinks and snacks, gardening, mowing the lawn, etc. I don't stand over them 24/7.

We have full cage-wire fencing 5 ft high around the entire property except the lakeside, where it is against the regional laws, to fence...except the area where we keep the stock. (To those of you who don't know, cage-wire is the next best thing to chain-link and we have two layers of it!) Our dogs stay with their charges. If we go into town, the older two would guard and the youngest pup (in training) who took over from our elderly dog who passed away at Christmas, is kenneled in a large run because she's not old enough to take care of herself.

At night, the oldest was kenneled with the pup who would cry if she was alone while the middle dog patrolled. Again, she's too little to guard against predators. His area was always directly around our home and in with the stock. His "zone" is a 2 acre area. The next night, they'd switch and the middle dog would stay with the pup. The plan was for the pup to be on patrol when she was fully trained. All three dogs would then be out to guard together...as it has been for the past 12 years that we have been here. Chances are this devasation may not have occurred had the older dog been out as well, as she'd have put up more of an alarm and we'd have been out like a flash to see what was wrong. The dog who was hurt was not as vocal, unfortunately.

Recently, there has been more "tourist" traffic around the lake and on the July 1st weekend, we had some problems with teenage fourwheeling individuals bombing down our driveway and bypass road. All the dogs would bark at them because, to them, these people are threats. I went up to the road to talk to them and let them know that they were disturbing us and to tell them where there were trails they could use, but they took off. But we suspect they were the culprits.

It was two nights later I heard their vehicles nearby but neither dog made issue of it. It would have been the second night that our dog was poisioned. We didn't anticipate it. We didn't leave him out deliberately unprotected. We are not city folk, although we have lived in the city. We have never had any trouble like this EVER in our lives no matter where we have lived.

The point is, that I believe some people on here got the mistaken notion that our dogs are left to roam. They aren't. They're home. They stay home. We're "outdoors" people and other than when we have to go into town to shop or work, or sleep at night, we're with our animals, and they're with us...in the house and out. We thought they were safe....in their own homes. They have jobs to do. And Safyre is right, they can't do their jobs locked up. That's where we're trying to figure out what to do. They are trained to guard the goats, chickens and horses. If we lock them up, then coyotes and cougars will get our other animals. We're then leaving those animals defenseless. Is that the trade-off? I don't think so.

Years ago, we deliberately moved to the country so we could have animals and they could be free...within their home boundaries, of course. Never in our worst nightmares would we imagine someone hurting one of our babies...in his own home. That's what gets us.

I need to hear from people who live in the country..if any of you do..and ideas for how we might better deal with this situation. If I was still in an urban area we wouldn't be having this conversation because I don't believe in having livestock guardian dogs in the city. If I did, you can bet they'd be locked up safe. But our dogs aren't. They're working country dogs.

I'm rambling and I'm sorry. I just want people to know that we're beating ourselves up enough for what happened when countless neighbors are telling us we couldn't possibly have predicted this. Our neighbors are just like us and all of us are in shock...everyone is worried about our dogs after this incident.
We love our dogs. They're family. We're grieving. We don't need to be told we're bad people because we know how much we do for our animals and how much we've done. We've had countless rescues, we've been a "foster" home for the local shelter. We care.

We also don't see this as an "expensive lesson" as someone called it. We see it as a tragedy. In the past we spent over $5000 treating a dog with lupus to give him a long and quality life. We never saw the money, only the soul. I'd get in the way of a freight train for my dogs. God help the person who did this to our Kai.

We are looking for training ideas, ways to better protect our beautiful guardians, which is why we posted in the foru. Did I mention that we're putting in security cameras? We've even talked about moving. So put any notions to rest that we aren't vigilant and loving animal advocates. We need ideas on where to go from here, not verbal beatings. We'll never forgive ourselves as it is. It feels like losing a child. God forbid.

Starr

starr
July 10th, 2005, 04:18 PM
I am not sure how to quote in this forum..never been on a forum before!!
Only chats.

I like your suggestion,
"maybe you could lace a bunch of yummy treats with something awful like natural bitters, and randomly throw them over the fence."

My parents and I have been talking about the same thing. Like I said, we'll do anything we have to. We've even considered moving although it'd be the last option.

Thanks again. Any more ideas...send them by!

Starr

Prin
July 10th, 2005, 04:23 PM
Oh, I hope I am not one of the ones you are talking about. I knew what you were talking about- with the doggy fenced in and all.

I think the best thing to do it follow through with the security cameras, but make sure they are clear enough so you can see who it is well. A blurry shadow won't help.

starr
July 10th, 2005, 04:25 PM
Thanks for your understanding. What you describe is exactly US. Our dogs never leave and they're here to work, while being precious members of the family.

Our neighbors are reeling from this, as we are. If I went over to our closest neighbor's home and brought cookies for their dogs, they'd happily gobble them up. The dogs around here are trusting and friendly because they have learned to guard from coyote, bear, etc....not particularly human, although they will get snarly if strangers show up. On the whole, were a trusting bunch...this is what has set everyone on their heels.

I'd like to learn more about how RCMP dogs are trained not to take food. We also have had all our dogs since they were babies, specifically for training purposes, so I'd definitely spend the time on the food issue if I knew how.

Any books or resources you can tell me about?

Starr

CyberKitten
July 10th, 2005, 04:29 PM
I agree with you Starr about the neighbour who offered that ridiculous remark about it being a Lesson". That is technically true but it's a tragedy and a crime!! I am so sorry for your loss!!! And nothing you could have done would have predicted it. You are not a police officer like Mona who has encountered some of the worse elements of society so has thought about it. We all want to think all people are good and even tho I do, I am surprised when they turn out not to be, sighh!!!

I do not live in the country but my dad grew up on a farm and my grandmother had a managed feral cat colony there before they were ever termed that - back in the 50;s even. But their household pets were not wllowed to roam. There are too many dangers - wild animals who can kill a household prey, a kitten or puppy for example being lunch for a cayote or other critters out there. Even the best trained pet needs to be indoors on a farm - not when they are working of course (like my dad's dog Buster who helped round up cows and had other responsibilities - pulling a sled for one, it has been awhile since I've thought of the farm so I cn't recall all he did but he was one brilliant dog!).

And unfortunately, there are cruel people like that fellow who poisoned your dog. I hope you can find out who he is and hopefully the Crown Preoscutors will have enuf to charge him (am assuming you are in Canada - always forget to look where ppl are from). What about crimestoppers? In a rural area, I bet somone knows something!!

starr
July 10th, 2005, 04:35 PM
I don't think I was talking about you specifically...I was just getting a certain "flavor" after reading all the posts so far and wondering if people were getting the wrong idea.

I guess I was also naive in thinking that people would realize that dogs are sometimes workers not just pets.

I also didn't consider the fact that there are people like you, Lissa who have had a very negative experience with country folk.
We don't shoot cats, we don't starve them, although I do know there are jerks out here and in the city, who would. In fact we have a little stray now, who came to us in the dead of winter a year ago. He had been attacked by something and was wild and skinny. Our dear Kuvasz who had lupus actually alerted us to him in the barn. We built an insulated house for him and put it up in the barn loft, fed him and befriended him. We got his shots and had him neutered so he wouldn't roam. Then we learned that possibly from his ordeal he had some permanent leg damage so we started doing a lot of T-touch and homeopathics to help him and to the vet's amazement, he has fully recovered!

We were thinking of "grooming" him for a forever home but we got so attached that he's going to stay. In fact, to add to our sad dog story, he was the cat who decided that Kai was his friend. He and this dog slept together. "Kohla", the cat, still searches for "his dog" and it saddens us every time we see him go to the empty house, sniff around and look longingly for his friend. It's a constant reminder during the day. At night, we miss his bark. It's been horrible these past few days. We're up all night every time the dogs bark. We haven't slept much.

Well, here I go again. Sorry. Better shut up! :sorry:

chico2
July 10th, 2005, 04:46 PM
Starr,I'd just like to say,I am very sorry for your loss :sorry:
Reading your posts,it seems to me your dogs have a wonderful life,there are outside dogs chained to a tree all day and then there are working dogs like yours,I do not believe you were neglectful in any way....the culprit was the evil person who probably held a grudge because you were bothered by their noisy ATV's,as I would be.
How anyone could do this to a dog,is beyond apprehension,but not surprising :evil:
I have also witnessed the bad side of"working dogs"on a visit to Alberta ranch-country,where a beautiful Rottie was shot because he had hurt his leg and of no more use to the farmer and I believe it's from cases like it we often draw conclusions.
Once again,I am very sorry for the loss of your poor pup :sad:

tenderfoot
July 10th, 2005, 05:59 PM
I am the one who said 'expensive lesson' - I meant 'expensive' on the heart & soul not the pocket! I am sorry I said it so poorly. The 'lesson' part comes in to play for us all - people can be cruel and heartless when it comes to animals. To me that is a lesson I never seem to get. I just don't understand a human being who can take any life and be so cruel.
I think I am also the person who made comment about "leaving children outside by themselves" (apparently I was batting 1000 yesterday on being mis-construed), I did not mean to imply that you did such a thing or that you neglect your dogs either. I was just trying to make a comparison to how parents have to be more protective these days and perhaps we need to start doing the same with our animals. All of this was in respect to the fact that a horrible person killed your very loved dog. Never in my wildest dreams did I mean to insult you or accuse you of anything but loving your dog. I am so sorry it didn't come out right.
I know that life in the country with working dogs is a whole different world and YIPPEE your dogs have jobs and purpose beyond being family members! They are busy doing what feeds their souls. How you can balance that with the intrusion of the tourist teenagers and their lack of respect for life I do not have an answer.
I am curious - is there a common place where the tourist teenagers hang out at the lake with their families where you could post a flyer describing what happened and how great the loss is to your family. Perhaps the message would eventually reach the right person and dig a hole deep in to his/her conscious and begin to plant a seed of change. If the death of your puppy still feels like a distant prank in this persons mind perhaps realizing that great pain was caused by this act - he/she will think twice before doing it again. I am trying to think of ways to make this tragedy into an opportunity to change a persons life for the better. Feeling remorse for what he/she did might be a step in the right direction.
Please accept my apologies for not taking more care with my words and know that I morn for your loss.

starr
July 10th, 2005, 06:59 PM
I am not sure if it was you who made those comments or not. Like you, I'm not "gunning" for anyone either, just making sure people realize that our animals are precious and that we're badly in need of suggestions to increase security for them. We'd never do anything to neglect them or put them in harm's way and will go to no lengths to protect them. So many times family members from the city would come to visit, watch our dogs and sigh and say things like, "This is SUCH a GOOD life for the dogs. Pastures to run in, a lake to swim in. Fresh veggies, milk and bones from the butcher. I wish I could give mine the same."

Yes, I did get the wrong impression regarding "expensive lesson". I'm a little sensitive right now, as you can well imagine.

You're quite right about the changing times. My children do play outside, sometimes without constant supervision but I totally get what you're saying. Just a couple of weeks ago a friend of mine and I were talking about how when we were young our moms gave us money and sent us to the little store for milk, bread..etc. and we were only 5-7 years old! (Yes, I'm an older mom!) My friend would hop on her bike and drive to my place...vice versa...and we lived several blocks away. Back in those times our moms would open the door after lunch and chase us out to play, then hours later we'd hear our moms calling us home for supper.

Nowadays we wouldn't DARE let our children walk to the neighbor's to play, much less send them to the store for milk or bread. Many of my friends in the city won't even let their children into the back yard alone ....and by alone I mean even if they can see them from the deck. Considering what happened to that little girl that was snatched from her back yard, I don't blame them.

Now, I'm afraid the same violence is coming to our animals and it sickens me. Not only will our dogs be taught to protect the children but we have already begun to educate our young daughter on protecting our dogs! What a world for a 5 year old to understand.

Thank you for the suggestion of putting up information. Another individual also mentioned it, and we have started to do this. We've got posters up with our Kai's sweet face on it, the story and the RCMP contact and file number. We hope someone will speak up or next bsest, the person that did this will feel like trash and stop. I'd even take a confession and apology at the very least.....

Just to know that our dear Bronte and Rosie (our remaining dogs) will be safe from this person will help my heart heal....a bit. Until then this place will not feel like home.

Any more ideas, feel free to post. We will explore all avenues. Thank you once again for the poster suggestion. It was a great one!

Starr