Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Londons 9/11 finally happened

Britishvixen21
July 7th, 2005, 09:44 AM
Im sad to say that the day I was finally waiting for arrived this morning when i turned on my tv and found that my country and hometown had been hit by terrorists. 4 bombs went off during morning rush hour in the London Underground. killing 40 people (so far) and injuring thousands more. I feel so helpless cant get through to freinds and family (have accounted for one brother so far who travels on the line that was hit but was rained off from work)
When 9/11 happened it was a tragedy and I could not have felt worse, but now it has hit my home town, the sheer panic and pain that courses through you is unimaginable and I finally understand how it must have felt for New Yorkers. Not only are you desperatly worried about family and freinds but your ego and pride is bruised for your country.

We are only fortunate that it was not the magnitude of 9/11 which I am suprised at.

To all my fellow expats and brits on here alike. My heart is with you all. Today I fly my Union Jack half mast pride mixed with sadness.

sammiec
July 7th, 2005, 09:47 AM
I am so very sorry Britishvixen! :(

I pray that your friends and family are safe and sound.

lezzpezz
July 7th, 2005, 09:49 AM
When I heard the news this morning, I actually thought of YOU! figuring that this would affect you directly. I am very sorry that this has happened and that so many innocent people have been injured or killed. My thoughts are with you and those overseas that have been directly affected by this tragic event. Know that our thoughts are with you, my friend :ca:

Britishvixen21
July 7th, 2005, 09:56 AM
thanks for your kind words, finally got hold of dad hes ok, but still no word of cousin who works where one hit. Il keep you posted.

Rick C
July 7th, 2005, 10:01 AM
Carol and I were actually in Russell Square, where one of the buses blew up, less than five weeks ago.

We were also using Kings Cross for the subway and train station as well.

Kings Cross in particular is a teeming place.

The scene at Russel Square:

http://www.goldentales.ca/London56.jpg

Kings Cross train station - the subway station is underneath this:

http://www.goldentales.ca/London36.jpg

Sorry to see all of this happen. Hopefully the casualty count levels off.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Beaglemom
July 7th, 2005, 10:15 AM
I'm so sorry Britishvixen. I can only imagine how you must be feeling right now. I'm glad to hear that you have been able to get a hold of your dad and he's okay. My thoughts and prayers are with you, your family and all those affected by this tragedy.

heidiho
July 7th, 2005, 10:34 AM
Funny how it happened right after they annocunced the Olympics are gonna be there..I am sorry for you to,thankfully not more are dead like 9/11 :ca:

Rick C
July 7th, 2005, 10:42 AM
Funny how it happened right after they annocunced the Olympics are gonna be there..I am sorry for you to,thankfully not more are dead like 9/11 :ca:

The timing was probably more coincidental to the G-8 summit starting in Scotland.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

heidiho
July 7th, 2005, 10:43 AM
Oh yeah forgot about that,,

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 10:53 AM
BritishVixen- the first thing I did when I woke up this morning as well was think of you. I know what you are going through, and I wish you strength. I was actually going to PM you but I saw this thread first.

I wish everyone who has family or lives in or around London the best at this hard time. It is sad that this is the world we live in, where people intentionally kill innocent people. It can happen anywhere- almost anytime, we have to be vigilant and strong. :grouphug:

Luba
July 7th, 2005, 10:54 AM
I just heard it on the news, how terrible and tragic.

There was some concern they are going to target Denmark next.

Prayers to everyone and strength with positive power and vibes.

So very sorry so very sorry.

Writing4Fun
July 7th, 2005, 10:59 AM
Britishvixen, I'm so sorry to hear about this tragedy in your home town. I hope your friends and family all turn up ok. I'll be lowering my flag for your countrymen as well.

Melinda
July 7th, 2005, 11:08 AM
my thoughts and prayers are with all of London today, we've been trying for the past hour to call friends of ours living there in Ickingham Middlesex, they use the subway to get to work/school, only voice recordings are coming through

pags
July 7th, 2005, 11:13 AM
My best friend called me early this morning and said, "Turn on the news. It's happening again." This was the same friend who called me as I arrived to work September 11, 2001 and told me to turn on the news... So as soon as I heard his voice I started shaking.

I am so sorry for all of the British people -- our friends who hugged us and comforted us and prayed for us during the 9/11 tragedy. I am praying for all of you now. Vixen - I thought of you in particular this morning as well -- and came here to find you and wish you strength and comfort.

I want to join the others here in wishing the best to all of those with friends and family affected by this horrific attack. I'm so very sorry.

Britishvixen21
July 7th, 2005, 11:16 AM
I hope you get a hold of them soon, keep trying I got through eventually but its hard.
This is the full statement from Al Quaeda the F****** C***s


In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and undaunted fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.

Nation of Islam and Arab nation: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge against the British Zionist Crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan. The heroic mujahideen have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters.

We have repeatedly warned the British Government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahideen exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.

We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.

God says: "You who believe: If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly."


Im trying to be civil and not believe an eye for an eye but if i had 5 minutes with one of these uneducated, moronic, sadists id have something to say! and id probably be doing 15 to life afterwards too.

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 11:25 AM
I can't even tell you on this forum what I would do if I had any amount of time alone with one of those b@$t@rd$. They can believe that we fear them... I don't fear them. I pitty them, I hate them, I look down upon them... but I do not fear them.

They run like cowards from their acts- they live for a fallacy...when they die from their suicide bombings they will get a rude awakening when instead of many virgin's... Satan is in their palce with a pitch fork to stick in their A**! :evil:

JDG
July 7th, 2005, 11:30 AM
A good friend of mine who I worked with was on the tube this morning.

He has a few cuts, a little shaken, but none the worse for wear. . . .



My mother used to tell me all the time when I lived in England that London would be next. I hate that she was right.

Obviously Al Quaeda don't care where they bomb - these explosions being relativily near the Finsbury Mosque. (The International Hub for Al Quaeda to find new recurits in the western world - many may remember the reference in '24' about the Finsbury Mosque)


I've already cried.

I know I've walked on every street affected. Its very surreal.


I'm also so mad, yesterday was such a great day for London - with the news of the olympics, and this just destroys all that joy!


I'm thankful that 'only' 40 lives were needlessly taken, rather than the thousands taken 9/11.


I feel blessed that none of my direct friends were among the 40.

Rick C
July 7th, 2005, 11:37 AM
One t-shirt you see around London these days - typically worn by Muslim females but sold in many shops - is: "I'm Islamic, Don't Panic."

I imagine those t-shirts will disappear overnight.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Schwinn
July 7th, 2005, 11:38 AM
I am so sorry BritishVixen. I hope all turns out well.

I have the utmost contempt for terrorists, and wish I could meet one in a dark alley some day. To me, a terrorist attack is like a sucker punch and then running. If you want to start a fight, then walk up to your enemy, look him in the eye, and have at it. But the ultimate in cowardice is to hit him and run away and hide. It is too bad that they didn't concentrate on finishing what they started in Afghanistan. I guess Iraq didn't really stop the attacks after all, eh?

And I'm sure everyone already knows this, but I think it is warranted to be said again. This is not an attack by Muslims, it is an attack by cowardly terrorists hiding behind thier warped interpretation of thier religion. For the most part, the Muslim religion teaches peace, and this goes against the highest tenament of Muslim religion. I have friends and relatives who are Muslim, and I assure you they are as horrified by this as the rest of us.

My thoughts to everyone with friends and family in Britain.

Luba
July 7th, 2005, 11:42 AM
There are thousands of people stranded having to walk atleast 10 miles or more before they can reach some form of OPEN transit / call someone to pick them up.

WHY don't they organize busses to take these people east, west, north , south.

They can have dogs sniff search each bus and each person before they get on..I don't understand why after 8 hours they haven't thought about how are all these people going to get home.

JDG
July 7th, 2005, 11:47 AM
The mobile telephone networks are down, and some phone service are affected. I've got some emails from some people in England trying to get incontact with family over here.

I've been making 'Yeah, they're ok' phone calls all morning!

lezzpezz
July 7th, 2005, 11:57 AM
And I'm sure everyone already knows this, but I think it is warranted to be said again. This is not an attack by Muslims, it is an attack by cowardly terrorists hiding behind thier warped interpretation of thier religion. For the most part, the Muslim religion teaches peace, and this goes against the highest tenament of Muslim religion. I have friends and relatives who are Muslim, and I assure you they are as horrified by this as the rest of us.

My thoughts to everyone with friends and family in Britain.

Schwinn: thank you for highlighting this fact. It seems to me that after 9/11, many innocent Muslim folks got the ***** end of the stick and were persecuted for just being Muslim. This attack is not their fault at all, of course, and it certainly warrants being illustrated on a public forum, so that the anger is not projected on the wrong folks. Thanks.

badger
July 7th, 2005, 12:01 PM
I'm listening to BBC 5 over the internet. Non-stop coverage. If you can't get on, keep trying.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/

Britishvixen21
July 7th, 2005, 12:06 PM
My cousin is good she telephoned home. but she is still stuck there, seems stupid to me that they are not getting everyone out. I mean it happened like 8 hours ago!
Im sorry to hear about your friend JDG, I hope everyone elses freinds and family are ok.
The only thing that worries me is the racial backlash that will come out of this. Now im not rascist one little bit, How can i be i live in the most multi cultural city in the world, however this is how a large majority of white brits feel.

They feel like the foreigners have come over and taken there jobs, and invaded there space (especially people in inner city london, east ham for instance was once all white and is now pure indian, like if your white you dont go there. and if you do your all but ignored) they feel like Britain takes in every refugee who turns up on there door, and that there country is being taken over. I would say that probably 75% of all the people tha I know are racist in one form or another, second of all british people do not know the difference between and indian, pakistani, muslim, hindi, were ignorant and to them there all terrorists, and now they are all teh enemy.

The English people are going to think that this is the last straw and if you dont see racist assaults rising in England over the next few weeks id be very very very suprised.

Luba
July 7th, 2005, 12:09 PM
That is precisely what terrorists are seeking!

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 12:11 PM
That is very true about Muslims. The religion teaches peace and love- positive things. However, this small group of extremists have turned the phrase "self-sacrifice" from something that means taking the shirt off your back for someone who is cold into giving up your life to take the life of others. It's sick!

Additionally, it's very dangerous for people such as Indians at a time like this. My friend who is Indian was chased and beaten after 9/11- and he is Christian... it's very sad. It's sad for anyone who is innocent to be singled out and take the brunt for these nutjobs.

Luba
July 7th, 2005, 12:31 PM
I'm going to ask anyone who has posted any information indicating racist remarks, whether you are quoting someone else or not to REMOVE them.

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 12:39 PM
This thread made me go visit my cousin's memorial site ( http://www.legacy.com/LegacyTribute/Sept11.asp?Page=TributeStory&PersonId=153792 )

I was just thinking that after 9/11 was over and the body count was done who would have thought that 40+ people would have to be added YEARS LATER to this site. At least 40 more lives taken in vain... it's very sad.

But then again they have attacked Madrid and a few places since. God bless them all- one day this has to come to an end!

doggy lover
July 7th, 2005, 01:23 PM
Britishvixen I like you have alot of family in England, just outside of London but some work in London. All my Aunts, Uncles and cousins live there, thankfully my Mum's in Florida right now with my sis and my daughter and that they didn't go to England to visit family, I just hope they will be ok there. My dads is here. It all just sickens me the whole 9|11 and now this. I'v been back home when there have been IRA threats and one of my cousins was in a building that they bombed, he was alright though. I just keep watching the news, what a sad sad day for our home land.

Rick C
July 7th, 2005, 01:29 PM
A year ago, the editor of Cairo's largest newspaper made this observation:

"Not all Muslims in the world are terrorists, but all the terrorists in the world are Muslims."

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

JDG
July 7th, 2005, 01:30 PM
A year ago, the editor of Cairo's largest newspaper made this observation:

"Not all Muslims in the world are terrorists, but all the terrorists in the world are Muslims."


I'll bet the IRA begs to differ. . . . :rolleyes: :sad: :sad: :sad:

doggy lover
July 7th, 2005, 01:30 PM
Badger thanks for the link.

Britishvixen21
July 7th, 2005, 01:33 PM
If I made any racist remarks please tell me? im not sure what you mean,

Doggy I hope that everyone is found safe and well with your family. A freind of mine from school was killed in an IRA attack and her sister who was 9 at the time was badly scared in the accident and had to witness her sisters death. It is a terrible world that we live in. People often ask me why I dont want children, my simple answer is why would you want to beer a child into this horrific world?

Writing4Fun
July 7th, 2005, 01:48 PM
A year ago, the editor of Cairo's largest newspaper made this observation:

"Not all Muslims in the world are terrorists, but all the terrorists in the world are Muslims."

I believe that's exactly the kind of comment Luba was referring to... :(

It's racist, and it's also dead wrong. Every country on the face of this planet has its own home-grown terrorists, whether we want to believe it or not.

...why would you want to (bring) a child into this horrific world?
Because children are our future and our only hope. How do you know that the child you would bear would not turn out to be the one to finally establish world peace? Or discover the cure for cancer? Someone will, one day. Why not your child? Or grandchild? Or great-grandchild?

Shamrock
July 7th, 2005, 02:00 PM
I know nothing of this tragedy - I am absolutely shocked and so saddend to hear this. (I like the house quiet and tranquil in the mornings - no tv or radio till I put on the noon news)
My thoughts and prayers go out to those who lost their lives, to the many injured victims, and to their families and friends.

What at a world we live in... :sad: Innocent people mere pawns to be used in the name of political "causes". It's diabolical.

I'm going to turn on the tv right this moment.

Shamrock
July 7th, 2005, 02:04 PM
Not all Muslims in the world are terrorists, but all the terrorists in the world are Muslims."
That is most definitely untrue.

ExplainTimothy McVeigh....

nymph
July 7th, 2005, 02:06 PM
And I'm sure everyone already knows this, but I think it is warranted to be said again. This is not an attack by Muslims, it is an attack by cowardly terrorists hiding behind thier warped interpretation of thier religion. For the most part, the Muslim religion teaches peace, and this goes against the highest tenament of Muslim religion. I have friends and relatives who are Muslim, and I assure you they are as horrified by this as the rest of us.

My thoughts to everyone with friends and family in Britain.

I'm completely with you on this Schwinn!

This had nothing to do with the Muslim religion, it was the work of a small group of terroists attempting to destroy civilization.

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Not all Muslims in the world are terrorists, but all the terrorists in the world are Muslims."
That is most definitely untrue.

ExplainTimothy McVeigh....

I was going to say that!!!

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 02:16 PM
This most definitely has to do with religion... to them, not to us. They are extremists and warp the writing in their Koran into something it is not. They are a small group in comparison, however to them it is about religion.

heidiho
July 7th, 2005, 02:20 PM
I have to somewhat agree with WHY BRING A CHILD INTOTHIS WORLD.I dont have kids and the way the world is,dont really feel the desire to bring one inot this mess.......

Luvmypit
July 7th, 2005, 02:20 PM
I have a very dear friend in London right now. I emailed her a million times and called her cell to no avail. About 20 minutes ago she MSNed me. I started to cry. I didn't expect to. I was just so happy to talk to her. She said she was 5 minutes from the blast already at work and had just come from the subway. Her work was immediately put on lockdown and she is still at work after all this time.
She said she is scared and felt the tremor in her office and looked outside and instantly seen smoke coming from 2 - 3 streets over.
She is worried about co workers that didn't make it to work and friends also.


Britishvixen I pray for you and your family and fellow Londoners. Its such a scary thing. In one moment you are minding your own and the next all security and safety have been stripped from you.

I believe by witness accounts the death toll will rise above 40. Let us pray together.

As for the comment regarding racism the comment regarding the muslims being terrorists was said afterwards.

I don't see why anyone has to tell people not to discuss issues pertaining to racism. They weren't being racist they were discussing it and in fact defending muslims. Ask any minority if its better to discuss it or to sweep it under the rug and pretend its not there. very counter productive.

heidiho
July 7th, 2005, 02:22 PM
40 Deaths,there Are 700 Injured,and Who Knows How Many Of Them Are Critical..

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 02:23 PM
I have to somewhat agree with WHY BRING A CHILD INTOTHIS WORLD.I dont have kids and the way the world is,dont really feel the desire to bring one inot this mess.......


Sometimes I feel that way as well. However, once I am married and a couple of years go by I feel that I will have children.

doggy lover
July 7th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Lets just pray for the ones hurt and the family of the dead, not on racism. Like Canada, England is multicultural and I'm sure people from many cultures have been hurt or killed.

Luvmypit
July 7th, 2005, 02:32 PM
These are more civilized times then say 200 to thousands of years ago. Although the threats are in different forms we are no worse today then we were centuries ago.

I am glad my parents didn't think the world was too bad for their children or else I wouldn't be here. I know I rather have been born and so will your future children. ofocurse if its a personal choice that is cool but if its based on the way the world is then i don't think that is any reason not to have children.

Lots of bad things happened before my time.

jjgeonerd
July 7th, 2005, 02:38 PM
A year ago, the editor of Cairo's largest newspaper made this observation:

"Not all Muslims in the world are terrorists, but all the terrorists in the world are Muslims."

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Not true. In the US we have the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) which are eco-terrorists.

Occasionally an abortion clinic gets bombed or a doctor killed. Terrorism by right-wing "Catholics".

Also random wackos...Oklahoma City, D.C. Anthrax mailings, Uni-bomber, etc.

Muslim terorists just seem to be the most active currently.

Luba
July 7th, 2005, 02:44 PM
There has been actually more then one comment that has a racist undertone.

Specifically I decided not to point it out so that those of you who did write it may wish to edit your post.

To give attention to racism if even to say 'well I didn't say it but so and so did' and hey I don't agree completely BUT.....
the BUT cancels out everything you may have had good intention in saying.

There is no BUT when it comes to hatred of any kind. We preach no segregation and elimination of dog breeds but as a human race we have yet to figure that out for ourselves. It's dreadful and shameful.

I am not of one race myself though my complexion is pale and I am always pigeon holed into being white .... I find that people have a tendancy to open their big mouths and show who they really are.

Terrorists and terrorism encourage hatred and cause fear. It is these times however that people need to BOND together instead of push apart.

Every nation in this WORLD has been affected by terrorism.

Rick C
July 7th, 2005, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=Writing4Fun]I believe that's exactly the kind of comment Luba was referring to... :(

It's racist, and it's also dead wrong. Every country on the face of this planet has its own home-grown terrorists, whether we want to believe it or not.

Actually its NOT racist and its entirely accurate.

It was written by a MUSLIM ARAB as I originally stated which hardly qualifies it as racist. The column itself, originally printed in Egypts biggest daily newspaper, is reproduced in English at this link and well worth a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse605.xml (The Link)

The full, accurate quote, that starts the column is:

It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.

The author concludes with this observation:

We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women.

We cannot redeem our extremist youths, who commit all these heinous crimes, without confronting the Sheikhs who thought it ennobling to re-invent themselves as revolutionary ideologues, sending other people's sons and daughters to certain death, while sending their own children to European and American schools and colleges.

Racist? That's a culture looking inward and not liking what it sees.

Recognize that there is a conflict in the Muslim world as well, those horrified by the crimes committed in their name and those who want to take Islam in a hardline direction.

The BBC actually had an article a few days ago noting the shift in Iraq coverage in Arab media, noticeably Al Jazeera, which is now calling the perpetrators of the terror attacks in Iraq "gunmen and suicide bombers" instead of "freedom fighters" as it did before.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4123882.stm (The BBC Link)

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Luba
July 7th, 2005, 02:47 PM
Accurate according to who?

Because someone says it, that makes it so?

And YES it is racist! So what someone that is Muslim or of the same faith, country, traditions or culture said it, big whoopie doo da, someone CAN be racist against their own race..or had you not heard of that before?

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 02:50 PM
...The BBC actually had an article a few days ago noting the shift in Iraq coverage in Arab media, noticeably Al Jazeera, which is now calling the perpetrators of the terror attacks in Iraq "gunmen and suicide bombers" instead of "freedom fighters" as it did before....

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Rick, I don't find you to be making racist comments, you are just trying to show us something. I feel that sometimes it is easy for some to misinterpret. Everyone should read that link before they say anything about racist comments.

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 02:52 PM
Accurate according to who?

Because someone says it, that makes it so?

And YES it is racist! So what someone that is Muslim or of the same faith, country, traditions or culture said it, big whoopie doo da, someone CAN be racist against their own race..or had you not heard of that before?


I think you are right too- people can be racist against their own race. I don't think he was pushing it off as though he agreed with that quote... I think he just wanted us to view it.

lezzpezz
July 7th, 2005, 02:53 PM
A year ago, the editor of Cairo's largest newspaper made this observation:

"Not all Muslims in the world are terrorists, but all the terrorists in the world are Muslims."

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

I read this as a mere quote, not a racial slur, and I am sure it was never intended as a slur, just the quote that it is. As for Britishvixens' comments about how folks in her home area feel about refugees and immigrants to England, I took that as an innocent observation from someone who has lived there. I did not take it as racist, however the choice of words could be viewed as such. I'm pretty sure that this was not her intent either.

I agree with not letting this thread turn to bashing of any one group of people except the group known as "TERRORISTS", be they Canadian, Muslim, French, Russian, Australian, Inuit, Alien....(sorry, have to get my Tom Cruise slam in there :p ), or whatever. Let's not choose a race, rather use the term Terrorist, as that is the fact here. Terrorists, as of yet, not possitively verified as any one group at this time to my knowledge, but in all likelyhood, the Al-Q, are obviously responsible for this despicable deed, but no need to single out one race of people, many of whom have absolutely no affiliation with this group, even if by chance they were born in the same country. Just my thoughts......

JDG
July 7th, 2005, 02:54 PM
I am a member of the Muslim Directory in the UK - its a muslim resource that was work related for myself when I worked in England. I myself am not muslim.

I got this press release from them about the attack:

http://muslimdirectory.co.uk/

The members of the MSF, including the Muslim Directory, watched with dismay, shock and
deep sadness the events that unfolded today in London.

As Londoner’s, our first thoughts are with those who have been injured or lost their
lives and with their families.

Following early indications that the blasts this morning are likely to have been a
coordinated terrorist attack, the MSF would like to express its total condemnation of such
terrible acts and gross violations of the law of humanity.

The MSF would like to re-iterate that the true message of Islam is one of Peace, Justice
and the love of humanity. Islam holds the sanctity of human life in the highest possible
regard and shedding the blood of an innocent person is seen as a most heinous and
repulsive crime.

The MSF would like to assure the people, police and emergency services of London that
regardless of who perpetrated this terrible crime, the Muslim community, who number over 1
million in London, will do its utmost to help in whatever way possible.



This is a scary time to be Muslim. . . . . best wishes to all the hardworking, and true people of their faith. . . . .

Rick C
July 7th, 2005, 02:57 PM
Accurate according to who?

Because someone says it, that makes it so?

And YES it is racist! So what someone that is Muslim or of the same faith, country, traditions or culture said it, big whoopie doo da, someone CAN be racist against their own race..or had you not heard of that before?

Settle down champ!! :)

As others have noted, I'm illustrating a point that Muslims themselves are horrified by the murder and mayhem committed in the name of their culture and religion.

The author of the comment is accurate in his assessment that Muslims need to look within at the racism being perpetrated in their name.

Like that aboriginal leader in Canada - can't remember his name - railing against Jews about a year ago.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

doggy lover
July 7th, 2005, 02:59 PM
It is true there is alot of hate for refugees and immigrants to England, I have heard many people complain about them when I was over there and some of the people who complain are not white either.

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 02:59 PM
I agree with lezzerpezzer... for instance one person (no names) wrote "I get pigeon holed into being white"... that can be taken as racist to some as well. Al-Q is responsible for most terrorist acts in the past decade, no? They are mostly middle eastern and/or muslim, no? Thats not racist- there is a reason this extremist group feels they have to fight the world... it's over religion... it stems from Israel. However look at something like John Walker Lindh ... it proves that anyone can be a terrorist, even when it's against the country they were born and live in.

Luvmypit
July 7th, 2005, 03:06 PM
To be fair to Rick C there are by FACT more muslim terrorists groups then any other religion. Next is Christian. Christianity is not far behind at all. By stating that doesn't mean I am racist or that I think all Muslims are terrorists or Christians are terrorists.

If you really look at the quote it says almost all. I personally don't agree with the quote as it did come off with racist undertones and is untrue becase there are many other religious terrorist groups. Almost is unaccurate as if you put all the other terrorist groups together and compare to Muslim then there are more religious terrorist groups in all other religions compared to Muslim.



http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-terrorist-groups#Religious_Terrorists

jjgeonerd
July 7th, 2005, 03:09 PM
Personally I think Luba is overreacting a little. I haven't seen anything racist in this thread...and worrying about it is killing the thread IMO.

Britishvixen21
July 7th, 2005, 03:12 PM
FYI I changed my post seeing as some people are a little overly PC on here, you know whats funny is that I work with several ppl from pakistan who are good freinds of mine, and they call themselves way worse than that!!!

Thank you luvmy your word mean a lot, I didnt even hear about it until I got into my freinds car and he was like didnt you hear?

All the way to work I was worried sick, I rushed into work into my office, I couldnt get a hold of anyone as the lines were jammed. I finally spoke to my mum in Ireland it went something like this

Stepdad: Hello
Me: Hi Liam its Jade is everyone OK?
Stepdad: Yes mate everyones fine.
Me: Thank god

(Pause for me starting to bawl)

Stepdad: yer want yer mum?
Me: (still blubbering) barely audible Yes

Mum: Hey mate
Me: (still unable to speak to good without bawling) Hi Mum I Love you is everyone ok,?
Mum: yes love dont get upset, your brother is fine he called me jsut after and said he had been rained off, hes home safe and sound.

(Pause in convo again for more crying, nose blowing and hug from colleagues all 12 of em crammed in my shoe box office)

Mum: dont get so upset
Me: I was so worried and i cant get through, I love and miss you all and I want to come home!

I have been close to tears all day and have bloody work done, and ive been welling up all day! when i get home im sure il ahve a good cry.

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 03:12 PM
Personally I think Luba is overreacting a little. I haven't seen anything racist in this thread...and worrying about it is killing the thread IMO.

I second that... I don't think we have a group of racists here. This is actually a constructive thread and I wouldn't want it to get out of hand due to misinterpretation like the Live8 one! :rolleyes:

Luba
July 7th, 2005, 03:17 PM
Well Rick you're the one that indicated that it is not racist and entirely accurate.

Advising me to settle down & suggesting that I am overreacting is an opinion that many have felt over the years when others were condemned, segregated, tortured, murdered and used as slaves.

Unlike many I speak out, speak up and speak for what I believe in! I treat people as equals.

I still state that simply because someone or some group makes a statement, does not make it 'SO'....or have you forgot about Hitler and his army?

There is a fine line one walks, at which point do you cross it?

This is why I stated that people and nations need to bond together, not pull apart and make rash decisions and point fingers at any particular people.

Schwinn
July 7th, 2005, 03:17 PM
Words aren't racist, it's the intentions behind them that are. That's the problem with a lot of the world today. Nobody cares about what is meant, or the intention. They'd rather jump all over someone for using a certain word. If people would get over themselves and learn to understand why someone is saying something rather than the words they are using, it'd be a lot easier to get along.

Nobody here said anything to make them sound racist. I will allow that Rick C's statement sounded a little racist at first, but we have to understand where that quote came from and why. Now that we do, it obviously isn't racist. They're just words, people. Time to get a grip and attack the ideology, not the language.

doggy lover
July 7th, 2005, 03:18 PM
Britishvixen you and me have to both have a good blubber later, tears have been in my eyes all day too. I wish everyone here would stop all the racism crap and stay focused on the people still dying in the hospitals and the poor families who will no longer have a family member (a dad, a son, a husband, a wife, a mother, a daughter) think of them. :angel:

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 03:21 PM
FYI I changed my post seeing as some people are a little overly PC on here, you know whats funny is that I work with several ppl from pakistan who are good freinds of mine, and they call themselves way worse than that!!!

Thank you luvmy your word mean a lot, I didnt even hear about it until I got into my freinds car and he was like didnt you hear?

All the way to work I was worried sick, I rushed into work into my office, I couldnt get a hold of anyone as the lines were jammed. I finally spoke to my mum in Ireland it went something like this

Stepdad: Hello
Me: Hi Liam its Jade is everyone OK?
Stepdad: Yes mate everyones fine.
Me: Thank god

(Pause for me starting to bawl)

Stepdad: yer want yer mum?
Me: (still blubbering) barely audible Yes

Mum: Hey mate
Me: (still unable to speak to good without bawling) Hi Mum I Love you is everyone ok,?
Mum: yes love dont get upset, your brother is fine he called me jsut after and said he had been rained off, hes home safe and sound.

(Pause in convo again for more crying, nose blowing and hug from colleagues all 12 of em crammed in my shoe box office)

Mum: dont get so upset
Me: I was so worried and i cant get through, I love and miss you all and I want to come home!

I have been close to tears all day and have bloody work done, and ive been welling up all day! when i get home im sure il ahve a good cry.

I've been there... just cry- get it all out. Cry till you can't cry over it anymore, then cry some more... than you'll feel better. There is nothing I can say like "it will be okay" "don't worry"... it's irrelevant, whats done is done... it's still fresh and thats hard to deal with.

Luba
July 7th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Just words Schwinn? Come now thats not entirely logical.

If this were the case it would be okay to use 'just words' of racist nature to refer to people ...because they are just 'words'

jjgeonerd
July 7th, 2005, 03:26 PM
Words aren't racist, it's the intentions behind them that are. That's the problem with a lot of the world today. Nobody cares about what is meant, or the intention. They'd rather jump all over someone for using a certain word. If people would get over themselves and learn to understand why someone is saying something rather than the words they are using, it'd be a lot easier to get along.

Nobody here said anything to make them sound racist. I will allow that Rick C's statement sounded a little racist at first, but we have to understand where that quote came from and why. Now that we do, it obviously isn't racist. They're just words, people. Time to get a grip and attack the ideology, not the language.

+1 :thumbs up Please try to look at the context. Rick C. was not being racist. That's it for me...the thread's focus has been entirely lost.

Britishvixen21
July 7th, 2005, 03:28 PM
For gods sake Luba let it go, no one here is racist ok, for the love of all things good hasnt today showed you that forgiveness and love make this world a far better place than blame and hatred!!! Just LET IT GO!

All i want to do is go home and I mean my real home England, Im so desperate to go, but im so broke right now my ass cheeks are sqeaking when i walk LOL. and British Airways havent got any special rates (corporate bast***s, Luba you want someone to rain down on, try the corporations!)

Shamrock
July 7th, 2005, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Rick C
A year ago, the editor of Cairo's largest newspaper made this observation:
"Not all Muslims in the world are terrorists, but all the terrorists in the world are Muslims."


I was questioning ONLY the accuracy of this statement by this editor.

The reprinted quote:

"Its is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims".

ALMOST all is not all..

I do not see any racist remarks here at all.

doggy lover
July 7th, 2005, 03:30 PM
When was the last time you were home?

Luvmypit
July 7th, 2005, 03:34 PM
I would really love to continue this discussion about racism or the lack there of. But your right we need to stay focused on whats important here. Lost lives and injured souls.


I think all of us agree that we will not look at the average muslim on the street and assume they are terrorists.

kandy
July 7th, 2005, 03:34 PM
As soon as I saw this story this morning I said a prayer for all the people who were personally effected by this tragedy. Terrorists - no matter what reasoning they follow or what religion they pervert - are criminals, plain and simple. My heart is with all those poor people who are hurting because of this attack. :(

Writing4Fun
July 7th, 2005, 03:38 PM
Well, Rick, all I can say is, if you're going to quote someone, please don't edit the quote. Your original post said "all terrorists are Muslims" which, on its own, can most definitely be contrived as racist. The original piece actually said "almost all". The original quote in its entirety is a completely different ball of wax. ;)

I don't think anyone is saying Rick is a racist, only that the original quote could be contrived as a racist comment.

Britishvixen, if I had the money, I'd fly you there myself. My "home" is only a 7 hour drive from here, but there are days when I wish someone would hurry up and invent teleportation devices. I can only imagine how that feeling is magnified when there's an ocean between you and your loved ones. Take comfort in knowing they're all ok, and get yourself on standby if you can. :grouphug:

Prin
July 7th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Almost is not all, definitely. All I can add is that terrorism always depends on what side you're on.

When I lived in southern Ireland, I got a completely different side of the IRA. A side that you would never see on this side of the pond.

I wish the Muslim extremists would give better, more logical explanations. Without them, they just look like impulsive, irrational, strike-anywhere vigilantes, which might be an accurate picture :confused: :mad: . Maybe they don't have reasons. "Get your army out of my country" is not a reason to kill innocent people. Why can't they protest instead? I don't get it.

Rick C
July 7th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Just words Schwinn? Come now thats not entirely logical.

If this were the case it would be okay to use 'just words' of racist nature to refer to people ...because they are just 'words'

Aside from the fact you're completely wrong and overreacting Luba ;) (comparing the mutterings of a Muslim moderate with the author of Mein Kampf? What's up with that?), we can agree to disagree like . . . . . gentlemen.

I'll spare the board further discourse as I've got to take off to some meetings in another town anyway.

But I'll be back if need be. :eek: :p

As a sidebar, we have an off-topic board at my hockey site (over a million hits a day), the necessary evolution of 9/11 where people whom you would normally talk hockey with began to immediately and vociferously put forward the most amazing and radical views from the left and the right. It was a full scale internet brawl that took about three years before it finally began to settle down.

I guess that's just part of getting to know each other. :party:

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Rick C
July 7th, 2005, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=Writing4Fun]Well, Rick, all I can say is, if you're going to quote someone, please don't edit the quote. Your original post said "all terrorists are Muslims" which, on its own, can most definitely be contrived as racist. The original piece actually said "almost all". The original quote in its entirety is a completely different ball of wax. ;)

Agreed. That's why I took the time to look it up for accuracy, in the interests of debate, AFTER it had become a point of contention. My fault. No harm intended.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 03:52 PM
"The principal stated aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.

According to bin Laden's 1998 fatwa (religious decree), it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, Jews and all those who help them. Muslims who do not heed this call are declared apostates (people who have forsaken their faith) by al-Qaeda.

Al-Qaeda's ideology, often referred to as "jihadism," is marked by a willingness to kill "apostate" —and Shiite—Muslims and an emphasis on jihad. Although "jihadism" is at odds with nearly all Islamic religious thought, it has its roots in the work of two modern Sunni Islamic thinkers: Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Sayyid Qutb.

Al-Wahhab was an 18th-century reformer who claimed that Islam had been corrupted a generation or so after the death of Mohammed. He denounced any theology or customs developed after that as non-Islamic, including more than 1,000 years of religious scholarship. He and his supporters took over what is now Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism remains the dominant school of religious thought.

Sayyid Qutb, a radical Egyptian scholar of the mid-20th century, declared Western civilization the enemy of Islam, denounced leaders of Muslim nations for not following Islam closely enough, and taught that jihad should be undertaken not just to defend Islam, but to purify it."

I have MUCH MUCH more on this at home but this is just a quick excerpt of the question "why". To them... this answers part of the question.

Schwinn
July 7th, 2005, 03:54 PM
Just words Schwinn? Come now thats not entirely logical.

If this were the case it would be okay to use 'just words' of racist nature to refer to people ...because they are just 'words'

It's absolutely logical. The words one use does not make them racist. The intent behind them determines if they are racist or not. That isn't to say that some words aren't offensive or down-right ignorant. To judge someone as racist solely by what the words they choose, and not the reason behind thier choice of words is illogical. That's like judging someone riding a Harley and wearing leather as a bike gang member, or someone with a shaved head and Doc Marten's as a white supremist.

Let me give you another example. Two people, two statements. The first person says, "Craig's wife is a (insert your own derogatory term here)". The other person says, "I wouldn't hire an East Indian, they aren't too bright". Who's the racist here? If we were going to judge on language, we'd say the first person. But they aren't. Are they a little insensitive? Maybe it's that that is the way they have always described people of East Indian descent and no one bothered to tell them it was offensive. Actually, that's the reason. They have also used the words beautiful, intelligent and kind to describe the woman. Hardly adjectives a racist would use. The second person didn't use any derogatory language, but you know what? One of the biggest racists I ever met. Hatred doesn't spring from words, it springs from ideas. Personally, I don't think stopping someone from using certain words stops them from being a racist, just as using certain words doesn't make them a racist.

Karin
July 7th, 2005, 03:55 PM
I have some very good friends/neighbors that are muslim and they went out of their way after hurricane Frances last year to make sure we all had ice & water for ourselves & our pets. They recently moved into their new home and called me this morning offering a safe place to stay for Ciara and I. I just might take them up on that too. That is all I have to say about that.

Can't we keep this a supportive thread for all involved in todays tragedy?

doggy lover
July 7th, 2005, 03:58 PM
Britishvixen here is a pic I took of home when my kids and I went on the London Eye a few years ago. I just take in fixes like this when I get home sick. I was there last year to visit my nan, who was dying of cancer, I miss her with all my heart.

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 04:03 PM
I have some very good friends/neighbors that are muslim and they went out of their way after hurricane Frances last year to make sure we all had ice & water for ourselves & our pets. They recently moved into their new home and called me this morning offering a safe place to stay for Ciara and I. I just might take them up on that too. That is all I have to say about that.

Can't we keep this a supportive thread for all involved in todays tragedy?

I have plenty of Muslim friends... my cousin's husband is Muslim (cousin-in-law?) ... nobody ever said there was anything bad about them. We were just saying that a lot of terrorists are Muslim. It's a shame because they are really great people generally... like Pit Bull breeds! They get a bad rap because of a few bad apples. :(

CyberKitten
July 7th, 2005, 04:08 PM
I recall the terror I sometimes felt when I took the tube in London during the heyday of the IRA bombings (and they always phoned in their threats to ensure no "civilians" were killed or injured but still...). I never encountered anything during that time and worried more about my sister who was required to travel in Europe for her job at that time. I WAS terrorized once by some British soldiers in Belfast once when they could not understand why I had floss in my backpack and they just could not understand it and I DO recall that and ironiocally, the same sister was actually in NYC on 9/11 and while she herself was uninjured, some people from her company were not so lucky. Sge still has nightmares about bodies falling from the building tho - post traumatic stress if you will.

Today, two of closest and dearest friends (my friend who cares for YY when I am away) and her husband were in London and all we know thus far is that they rented a car at Heathrow and were headed for downtown but have not heard from then since. That in itself is a relief since he likes to take the "tube" but his wife must have convinced to rent a car. We cannot assume anything tho since they have not yet checked in with Canada House nor have they phoned home and even tho they have a trimode cell, I cannot get thru to them either. I had difficulty reaching my sister on 9/11 too tho so I am not yet alarmed. They had however planned to head for one of the areas that was hit once they settled in their hotel. Please keep them in your thoughts and prayers even tho it sounds like all is OK. I won't stop worrying until I hear their voices! (Nor will their two college age children who.)

Britishvixen21
July 7th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Thanks Doggy for the pic, you started me bawling again LOL! im such a woose!

thank you for the offer of sending me home, I would never ever accept such a gracious offer even if you did offer it. But its nice to know ppl are so caring, the last time i was home was December that was after a two year gap. My family paid for my ticket! I dont know when il get home again, its kinda tough with my immigration jsut going through they dont really like you to leave the country. Probably be another year before I get back.

Thanks for everyones support on here it has been amazing. Hb has promised me a beer in my local English Pub and and chinese tonight to cheer me up. He is so adorable, and In laws were on MSN as I turned on the computer to make sure I was ok. and Ive done naadddaaa work today and bosses have just turned the other cheek.

nymph
July 7th, 2005, 04:24 PM
The London attack has nothing to do with religion, period. It was the work of a small group of criminals killing innocent people in the name of the holy war. IT IS NOT A HOLY WAR. Nowhere in the Islam religion such barbaric act of violence could remotely be interpreted as the result of "just cause".

I bet for once George W. Bush would agree with me on this one. I do worry however that law-abiding, peace-loving, true Muslims would be singled out and discriminated against after today's tragedy.

Britishvixen21
July 7th, 2005, 04:31 PM
Cyber I remember being in College at Oxford Street in London, and our lecture room being swarmed by Armed police telling us there was a IRA bomb threat and to get under the tables and away for the windows as they could not evacuate us in time. Luckily no bomb went off! But as i said before my freind from Elementary school was killed by an IRA bomb several years ago.

As for the cell phones, you wont get a hold of them for a while, and Il tell you what my dad told me as he is in the medical proffesion, when something like this happens all cell circuits are cut, the only circuits that can be used are special either sim cards, chips or signals for the emergency services, this is so that they can communicate and also for security purposes.

I hope and pray that they are ok. please keep us updated

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 04:31 PM
The London attack has nothing to do with religion, period. It was the work of a small group of criminals killing innocent people in the name of the holy war. IT IS NOT A HOLY WAR. Nowhere in the Islam religion such barbaric act of violence could remotely be interpreted as the result of "just cause".

I bet for once George W. Bush would agree with me on this one. I do worry however that law-abiding, peace-loving, true Muslims would be singled out and discriminated against after today's tragedy.


To al-Qaeda it is, you must have a comprehension problem because you never seem to read posts fully. Here you go again... I will state now that I will no longer answer your posts before a problem arises again.

doggy lover
July 7th, 2005, 04:37 PM
I was in England when the IRA bombed the changing of the guard, that was years ago.I was young when it happened all I can remember is horses being killed with nail bombs and some of the horses were trying to get up to go to their guards even though their legs were blown off. Horrible memory.

Angeleyes1437
July 7th, 2005, 04:41 PM
I was in England when the IRA bombed the changing of the guard, that was years ago.I was young when it happened all I can remember is horses being killed with nail bombs and some of the horses were trying to get up to go to their guards even though their legs were blown off. Horrible memory.


OMG- I want to cry... that is HORRIBLE!!

CyberKitten
July 7th, 2005, 04:59 PM
I am in the medical profession too and it has been my experience that not all cell circuits are cut (They were not on 9/11 for example) That may well be the case in London tho - they would have a protocoal I imagine (tho I do not actually know and he would) after all the IRA bombs.

So sorry to hear about your experiences. I know ppl who lived there a the time were quite weary of the stress of it all after awhile.

lilith_rizel
July 7th, 2005, 05:45 PM
Does anyone else have the feeling that we are heading into WW3? I mean, I get alot of info ahead of what comes out on the news. Bush wants to start war with Iran, take people out of S. Korea, and all this. Now London on top of it. I seriously think this may be the begining of it.....Sorry in advance if anyone disagrees..... it is just what I think is going to happen with all this going on.......

Writing4Fun
July 7th, 2005, 05:48 PM
Does anyone else have the feeling that we are heading into WW3?
Oh, God, Lilith! Now you're going to give me nightmares for sure! :eek:

Princesss04
July 7th, 2005, 05:50 PM
Oh I am so sorry to hear this. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers! :grouphug:

jjgeonerd
July 7th, 2005, 06:07 PM
Does anyone else have the feeling that we are heading into WW3? I mean, I get alot of info ahead of what comes out on the news. Bush wants to start war with Iran, take people out of S. Korea, and all this. Now London on top of it. I seriously think this may be the begining of it.....Sorry in advance if anyone disagrees..... it is just what I think is going to happen with all this going on.......

I doubt it...and hope not. The US military is stretched pretty thin as is since Iraq isn't going as well as planned (or not planned!). I sincerely hope we stay out of Iran. :o

Prin
July 7th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Me too. I think we've gotten too lazy from all that tv all over the world. Plus, with all the budget cuts...

CyberKitten
July 7th, 2005, 06:25 PM
I sometimes feel we are in ww3!! Seriously, there is a great book by Sister Rosalie Bertrell, who I think is a chemist and maybe a phsyician but I can't recall. She is a cancer researcher at any rate. She specualtes that we entered world war three with all the radiation and chemicals we are poisoning ourselves with since the sixties. I think she has a point. I certainly see the results of that war and feel like I am fighting it - and losing some battles, winning others - every day!

heidiho
July 7th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Yeah why not call this what it is ww3.....

Prin
July 7th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Heidiho, you mean change the name of the "Off-Topic" Forum to WW3 forum and call a spade a spade? :D

heidiho
July 7th, 2005, 07:00 PM
You got it...... :p :usa:

amber416
July 7th, 2005, 08:55 PM
The London attack has nothing to do with religion, period. It was the work of a small group of criminals killing innocent people in the name of the holy war. IT IS NOT A HOLY WAR. Nowhere in the Islam religion such barbaric act of violence could remotely be interpreted as the result of "just cause".



That is something that cannot be said so matter-of-factly, as if there is some definite rule of interpretation. Religion is intensely personal and COMPLETELY at the mercy of interpretation...there is no right or wrong answer, only opinions...different feelings/views.

doggy lover
July 8th, 2005, 08:02 AM
Well good news all my family has been found, my cousin was on the train ahead of the one that was bombed in Aldgate, thank god, her 5 year old son already lost his dad in an accident a few years ago, heaven forbit to lose his mum too. My Uncle got to his job in London no problem, he left earlier. They were both stuck in London last night but at least they are safe. :angel: 's were watching over them, maybe it was my Nan.

chico2
July 8th, 2005, 09:33 AM
Luba,I am sorry but I do not see how Rick or anyone else were being racist.The fact is,Al-Qaeda are not Christian Norwegians,they are Muslims and most of Arab origin.
Nobody is saying terrorism is part of The Muslim faith,but that of some evil brainwashed killers...Unfortunately it has been brewing in London for a long time,I've seen Imans(if that's what they are called)spewing hatred for the very country they live in,openly on the streets of London,with hundreds of impressionable young muslims listening in.
You mentioned Hitler and this is exactly how he got a large following...
An evilspirited leader will find a vulnerable target,in Hitlers case Jews,Homosexuals,Gypsys etc...
Al-Qaeda targets"Infidels"that includes you and me,in their view the cause of all evil in the world and that includes not warriors,but innocent people on their way to work,or working in their officetowers.
Is this not also racist,or does racism only apply to us???
It's unfortunate and scary but you will solve nothing behind blindfolds hoping this problem will go away.
There are millions of Muslims living in Europe and North America in peace and harmony,Al-Qeada are but a minority of hateful people,but one that can kill innocent people at will,supposedly in the name of their religion.

SnowDancer
July 8th, 2005, 10:13 AM
It may be coincidental, but I don't think so. My husband is flying to Brussels via London on Sunday evening. Late yesterday he was advised of schedule changes to his connecting flights at Heathrow - extended a couple of hours - I expect for security reasons.

Rick C
July 8th, 2005, 11:01 AM
For those interested, a summary of the Muslim world reaction:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/08/london.muslims/index.html

Also, Al-Jazeera's english site with its front page coverage:

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

heidiho
July 8th, 2005, 11:11 AM
And another sad thing is,they have children and raise them this way,will it ever end ,dont think so..

nymph
July 8th, 2005, 01:59 PM
That is something that cannot be said so matter-of-factly, as if there is some definite rule of interpretation. Religion is intensely personal and COMPLETELY at the mercy of interpretation...there is no right or wrong answer, only opinions...different feelings/views.

Ok perhaps I misunderstood what you meant, I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt. Are you actually equating terroism with the Islam religion?

"COMPLETELY at the mercy of interpretation"? I don't know how you could interpret one group of terroists and generalize that to the entire race. Can I equate Hitler with Christianity? How many people Hitler killed? 600 million Jews at least? I rest my case.

Angeleyes1437: hon, why don't you stay true to your words? ;) :D

Angeleyes1437
July 8th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Angeleyes1437: hon, why don't you stay true to your words? ;) :D

I was... you tend to start fights with me over things I never say :sad: lol.. its okay. I feel that you never read my posts or understand them at least, maybe my wording is weird to you. I never said it is actually a holy war... or al-Qaeda reprents Muslims. I simply said they are extremists and THINK they are representing their religion and fighting a holy war... and then you misinterpreted me and jumped on me... I agree with what you are saying- though what you think I said is not in fact what I said... got me????

nymph
July 8th, 2005, 03:56 PM
angeleye: you are such a funny gal! LOL I read and re-read your comment, I guess you and I just don't click.

What I tried to point out was that those terroists are simply attempting to conduct criminal activities under the disguise of "holy war", or "just cause", there was no "just cause" to kill innocent people, at least not in the Kuran. The very word "jihad" has multiple meanings, not just "holy war", it actually puts more weight on one's inner struggles.

What I tried to point out was that those terroists DO NOT REPRESENT MUSLIMS, they are simply a bunch of barbaric murderers! However do not associate these junks with ALL muslims. Wouldn't a Christian believer be offended if someone associate him/her with Hitler?

I saw with my own eyes at Chicago O'Hare airport that the only 3 people that were "randomly" picked out for security check were all of Middle-East origin. I'm afraid that this kind of racial profiling is a serious violation of human rights and a drastic deterioration of civilization. :sad: :sad:

Writing4Fun
July 8th, 2005, 04:02 PM
Oh, Gawd, Nymph! Thanks for reminding me of that! Hubby is travelling by car to Connecticut this week-end with a co-worker (training all week). When he went to have his passport picture updated, the fellow behind the desk looked at the picture and said, "I can't use this. It's too dark. You'll never make it through the border." So he had to have the picture re-taken with better lighting. The person he's travelling with is an East-Indian immigrant. I can only imagine what kind of reception they'll get at the border crossing now! :eek:

nymph
July 8th, 2005, 04:27 PM
Let's just say that I'm glad I live in Canada, but I don't know how long we can still experience the same level of equality and freedom. The future is even more grim after the London attack. :(

Angeleyes1437
July 8th, 2005, 04:51 PM
angeleye: you are such a funny gal! LOL I read and re-read your comment, I guess you and I just don't click.

What I tried to point out was that those terroists are simply attempting to conduct criminal activities under the disguise of "holy war", or "just cause", there was no "just cause" to kill innocent people, at least not in the Kuran. The very word "jihad" has multiple meanings, not just "holy war", it actually puts more weight on one's inner struggles.

What I tried to point out was that those terroists DO NOT REPRESENT MUSLIMS, they are simply a bunch of barbaric murderers! However do not associate these junks with ALL muslims. Wouldn't a Christian believer be offended if someone associate him/her with Hitler?

I saw with my own eyes at Chicago O'Hare airport that the only 3 people that were "randomly" picked out for security check were all of Middle-East origin. I'm afraid that this kind of racial profiling is a serious violation of human rights and a drastic deterioration of civilization. :sad: :sad:

It's not that we don't click- it's that you either choose not to understand or read what I write. I TOO said they don't represent all Muslims... where did I ever say they did? I did not say they are fighting a jihad- I said they believe they are, or that is what their leaders like Bin Laden put into their minds. Your response to mine is why I simply said I will not respond to your posts... IMO for the amount of times you've done this type of thing to me I can make no other assumption that you are looking for a fight which I will not give.

Luba
July 8th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Words and phrases are up to interpretation. Individual comments, names, suggestions and inferences meant in a derogatory manner are just that.

I'm not beating my head against the wall to get any of you to understand my point. If you don't you don't, period.

melanie
July 8th, 2005, 06:22 PM
firstly i want to point out that british security forces have confirmed it is highly unlikely this was alquida (sp) and that they are jsut taking the credit for other ppls work, pretty obvious really, its all about G8 as far as i can see.

secoundly if this is londons 911 and if all terrorism is compared to 911 from now on, then the ppl of palestine suffer 911 day after day after day and have for many yrs as have many other nations.

im not dissin your tradgedy, not in the least, and it is sad and wrong and cruel and evil to do such things as harm the innocent, but it is really important to remember this does not only happen to 1st world nations and occurs frequently for others daily it is jsut not splashed on the media is all, no one is imune, jsut richer nations get mroe attention.. and the ppl whojsuffer terrorism daily are of many religions and beliefs, so no its pretty ridiculous to say all terrorism is from muslims, EXTREMISITS yes, thats right, its not normal muslims doing it, it is EXTREMISTS OF WHICH CAN BE FOUND IN ALL SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS GROUPS.

the reson i raise this point is that many ppl are so shocked and mortified, i understand that but i also understand that we are not imune, and many ppl suffer this daily and ahve for some time now (eg sydney was bombed in the 60's by extremists, and who sunk the rainbow warrior?). perhaps this tradgedy will help many ppl in the world to understand the fellow humans tradgedy and suffering, and bring them closer in heart, empathy and understanding to those in other less fortunate nations, and perhaps if it efforts and pressure come from richer nations (for free) it will raise the need and emergency of dealing with terrorism globally not jsut in your own country therefore providing more intense aid, pressure and assistance to places like israel and palistine to help stop thier terrorism....

and maybe if G8 jsut drop third world debt entirely and be more environmentally aware, less greedy and less destructive with our resources (i would not be surprised if it was ecoterorrists) the problem may be over.

this is all food for thought

amber416
July 8th, 2005, 08:27 PM
Ok perhaps I misunderstood what you meant, I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt. Are you actually equating terroism with the Islam religion?

"COMPLETELY at the mercy of interpretation"? I don't know how you could interpret one group of terroists and generalize that to the entire race. Can I equate Hitler with Christianity? How many people Hitler killed? 600 million Jews at least? I rest my case.



Okay, no. What i am saying (I'll try and explain better, but i have a feeling it will come out pretty much the same) is that you cannot sit there and say that terrorists (YES, extremists, don't get me wrong) do not feel like they are acting in the name of their religion. That is arrogant and ignorant to say. You, me...nobody has any business setting rules for what one takes from their own religious belief. As for the second part of your post, i don't know what you're talking about, honestly. "I dont know how you could interpret one group of terrorists and generalize that to the entire race?" Huh?!?! I'm not interpreting anything. I'm also not generalizing anything. I'm not sure what you were reading when you wrote that. What i wrote is that RELIGION is completely at the mercy of interpretation. What i mean by that is one person can get something completely different out of,say, the Bible, than another person reading the same Bible. You seem to have misread my post, as well as others. I might suggest you take a deep breath and reread the post you are about to comment on before you do so. (and i mean that in a completely non nasty, sorry-i-don't-sugar-coat-better way....just came from the SO many rude people thread :) )

Luba
July 8th, 2005, 10:07 PM
Extremely well put Mel.

Poverty and famine, war and death occur throughout our world.

The death of 800,000 to 1,000 000 people during the Rwandan genocide about a decade ago was meaningless to developed first world nations.

We can't sometimes see through the forest for the trees. Those of use who live in developed nations find tragedy in those events which are of daily lives to others. To walk a street without armed guards, to sleep in bed each night without the fear of your children being abducted by rebel forces, forced to become militants and kill, to have enough food to feed your family, to not hold your baby as it dies or search through a garbage dump for food, shelter and clothing....dreams merely dreams to millions.

Terroristic tragedy is just as horrible and devastating, but we must look deeper feel deeper and appreciate more. Do we give enough? Do we learn enough and support enough ? I don't believe so. We simply have it too good, and thats the way we like it right? Being better, stronger, more powerful.

(we meaning 1st world countries)

chico2
July 9th, 2005, 09:27 AM
Whether these terrorists are Al-Qeada or any other extreemist group,violence will not feed a hungry child,or stop the Aids-epidemic in Africa.
The G8 group of leaders will give 50 billion by,I believe,2010 or was it 2020..but is this really a solution,putting more money in to the pockets of the dictator of the month??
Unless there is oil,gold or other natural resources,no government will be willing to participate in a major rescue effort.
I don't know what the solution is? Follow the money? Deploy troops or Red Cross,make sure the people gets the help they so desperatly need,only to see it destroyed again,when the next tribal war starts?
Powerty breeds desparation,often violence,they compared to us,have nothing to loose.
The highest unemployment rate in France and probably else where in Europe, is among Arabs,it breeds contempt and a willing ear to absorb any hatred from an Imam,but I cannot muster any symphathy for the killers of innocents,be it in Israel,Iraq,London,New York or anywhere else..
There will never be an end to all the misery in the world,seeing children die of Aids or hunger is heartbreaking and it has been going on forever,only the names of the countries change....I am not saying,we should not help with money..but the person or leader coming up with a solution to give these people hope,will be the real hero..
As for Al-Qeada or any terrorist group,there is no other solution than death and destruction,they are not fighting for a noble cause,their fight is just simply hatred and evil labelled"Holy War"with indiscriminate killing,they are killing their own women and children every day in Iraq...so,where is the solution??

chico2
July 9th, 2005, 09:50 AM
Luba,you are probably one of the kindest people I know,idealism is wonderful,but you also have to realize,there is true evil in the world and the blame cannot be solely put on the wealthy nations..
Terrorism will never be a solution to anything,I do not even call Al-Qeada Muslims,they are just simply murderers,the Muslim religion or any other religion does not promote killing,but has been the cause for most wars as history will tell us.
Al-Qeada are arabs,it's a fact,if they were Swedes,I would not hesitate calling them,a bunch of evil blonde murderers..I don't consider telling it like it is a racist remark.

Luba
July 9th, 2005, 09:59 AM
Anita that's really not what I was saying....not at all. However the need for greed power and money is what leads to the evil. I consider George Bush just as much a terrorist as any of the others. The only difference is this man does it as an elected official. Thank you for the lovely comments, we are both lovely ladies :D I think you're pretty special as well Anita!! :grouphug:

Evil and hatred, greed and religion make up the wars in the world today and have always.

BTW to those in the U.S were you aware that the draft bill increased the draft age from 18-24 to 18-28? Also indicated in such bill is a stipulation that if even you give your 4 years they can keep you longer!! Yup yup!
I believe there is also mention that if draft dodgers flee to Canada we are not to give them sanction here.

I actually heard that piece of information on a talk radio program last night. It was very interesting.

I hope for your sake, in the U.S (speaking to americans) that this draft bill not be enforced.

Prin
July 9th, 2005, 10:23 AM
We can't sometimes see through the forest for the trees. Those of use who live in developed nations find tragedy in those events which are of daily lives to others. To walk a street without armed guards, to sleep in bed each night without the fear of your children being abducted by rebel forces, forced to become militants and kill, to have enough food to feed your family, to not hold your baby as it dies or search through a garbage dump for food, shelter and clothing....dreams merely dreams to millions. I think to sleep in a bed at all is a big enough part of our lives we take for granted.

The G8 group of leaders will give 50 billion by,I believe,2010 or was it 2020..but is this really a solution,putting more money in to the pockets of the dictator of the month??
I wonder who the money will go to. I wonder where the G8 will invade next to enforce our way of life. I wonder if the money spread out over such a long time will actually do anything.

It's like the Met here in Montreal. About 5 years ago, the city and province promised 760 million over 10 years to get rid of the lefthand exits/entrances on the highway. Wow, 760 million!? Divide that by 10 and you get 76 million a year, which, in Quebec road construction money is pennies. (I mean it has taken 1.2 billion to build the Big O so far). Look at the results-- the work they've done so far is exactly where the flooding has been twice in a month. My point is they always say X dollars over 20 years, never X dollars every year because the every year figure would be quite insignificant-- especially if they plan to start off slowly and give more toward the end.

Rick C
July 9th, 2005, 01:45 PM
Anita that's really not what I was saying....not at all. However the need for greed power and money is what leads to the evil. I consider George Bush just as much a terrorist as any of the others. The only difference is this man does it as an elected official. Thank you for the lovely comments, we are both lovely ladies :D I think you're pretty special as well Anita!! :grouphug:

Evil and hatred, greed and religion make up the wars in the world today and have always.

BTW to those in the U.S were you aware that the draft bill increased the draft age from 18-24 to 18-28? Also indicated in such bill is a stipulation that if even you give your 4 years they can keep you longer!! Yup yup!
I believe there is also mention that if draft dodgers flee to Canada we are not to give them sanction here.

I actually heard that piece of information on a talk radio program last night. It was very interesting.

I hope for your sake, in the U.S (speaking to americans) that this draft bill not be enforced.

You're not really Noam Chomsky are you? ;)

Sorry, couldn't resist. :clown:

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Luba
July 9th, 2005, 01:54 PM
There's no fifth in Canada.....I plea :usa: 5th LMAO

chico2
July 9th, 2005, 05:34 PM
Rick,excuse my ignorance,but who is Noam Chomsky? :D

Rick C
July 9th, 2005, 07:10 PM
Rick,excuse my ignorance,but who is Noam Chomsky? :D

Well, Luba knows who he is which wasn't hard to guess given her comments. No offence Luba. :sorry: :party:

There are those in the world who would be absolutely stunned, Chico, you would even ask the question so fervent is their devotion to his . . . . teachings.

Just remember this about Chomsky . . . . if something bad happens in the world, America is the reason why. He's certainly consistent that way through forty years or so but that consistency merely exposes him as the critical examination below indicates:

http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/may03/chomsky.htm#

His cheerleading of Pol Pot, for one thing, well after genocide was exposed in Cambodia, is a clear indication of an alleged deep thinker stuck in a wagon rut.

He's the flagship captain of the left that loves being on a perpetual, self-loathing, guilt trip treadmill.

Hey, you asked!! :sorry: :sorry: :crazy:

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Luba
July 9th, 2005, 07:23 PM
Looking around :rolleyes:

I'm not the only one who knew...you did too!

LMAO

Sheep/wolf where's the clothing ACK!!

Prin
July 9th, 2005, 07:43 PM
Nooooooooooooooo!!! Not Noam!! Ach, I hate Noam!!! In every journalism class you ever take, they make you watch hours and hours of Noam documentaries.

Noam also says that we're just puppets of the media. They tell us what to think and they are paid by the upper levels to twist things to the government and to big business' advantage. Only he says it verrrrryyyy sloooowwwlly and drawn out in 3 hour documentaries. :rolleyes:

Luba
July 9th, 2005, 08:32 PM
You'll either love him or hate him LMAO

http://www.chomsky.info/chomsky.jpg
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20041002.htm

The proper reaction to terrorism is two-pronged: directed at the terrorists themselves, and at the reservoir of potential support. The terrorists see themselves as a vanguard, seeking to mobilise others. Police work, an appropriate response, has been successful worldwide. More important is the broad constituency that the terrorists seek to reach, including many who hate and fear them but nevertheless see them as fighting for a just cause.

We can help the terrorist vanguard mobilise this reservoir of support, by violence. Or we can address the "myriad grievances," many legitimate, that are "the root causes of modern Islamic militancy," Burke writes.

That basic effort can significantly reduce the threat of terror, and should be undertaken independently of this goal.

Violent actions provoke reactions that risk catastrophe. US analysts estimate that Russian military expenditures have tripled during the Bush-Putin years, in large measure a predicted response to Bush administration bellicosity. On both sides, nuclear warheads remain on hair-trigger alert. The Russian control systems, however, have deteriorated. The dangers ratchet up with the threat and use of force.

Prin
July 9th, 2005, 08:48 PM
That pic made me cringe. I don't disagree 100% with what his point is, I just disagree with his delivery.

jjgeonerd
July 9th, 2005, 11:24 PM
Coming from an American...I HATE Bush...but equating him to a terrorist is a bit much.

IMO, the so-called war on terror will take several strategies to win (if that's possible):

1. Aid and education to terrorist breeding grounds, such as Africa, to improve their conditions so it is harder to recruit new terrorists.

2. Diplomacy from ALL 1st world nations to eliminate 3rd world government corruption and pressure them into dealing with terrorist cells within their boundaries.

3. Law enforcement within 1st world countries to eliminate terrorist cells within their own boundaries.

4. Finally, as a VERY LAST resort, military force to eliminate terrorist activities from uncooperatvie countries (i.e. afghanistan...NOT Iraq IMO).

Thinking ending terrorism can be accomplished without military force is naive...conversely, thinking it can be achieved with only military force is equally naive.

nymph
July 10th, 2005, 12:32 AM
melanie said pretty much what I wanted to say. Thanks melanie! Well put!

Not to flame anyone (and certainly not endorsing terrorism), but I fail to see the real difference beween a terrorist attack and a full-blown invasion of a sovereign country: both involve violence in the name of so called "just cause". :rolleyes:

Prin
July 10th, 2005, 12:38 AM
Yes... And the difference between a vigilante killing innocent civilians in attempt to achieve a target vs the leader of a country doing the same.

chico2
July 10th, 2005, 10:00 AM
Thank's Rick for enlightening me :thumbs up
Although I would never waste my time reading any of his books,the article you provided was interesting.
I never felt any great admiration for someone enjoying the freedoms of living in a "democratic"society,but at the same time praising the likes of Pol Pot,Castro and politics or lack thereof in China.
It's to me the height of hypocrisy..
I am no great fan of president Bush and I wish he would have stayed out of Iraq and allowed Saddam to continue his murderous dictatorship :rolleyes: it does not seem to have achived anything other than too many casualities on both sides.
I am no intellectual,follow the news every day,like the average Joe.... :D but I do have opinions and they most certainly would not concur with someone like Mr Chomsky.

Rick C
July 10th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Nooooooooooooooo!!! Not Noam!! Ach, I hate Noam!!! In every journalism class you ever take, they make you watch hours and hours of Noam documentaries.

Noam also says that we're just puppets of the media. They tell us what to think and they are paid by the upper levels to twist things to the government and to big business' advantage. Only he says it verrrrryyyy sloooowwwlly and drawn out in 3 hour documentaries. :rolleyes:

So . . . . you're saying (thank you) journalism school grads are indoctrinated at length in the teachings of Noam Chomsky and are spit out into the real world where the right wing, not surprisingly, claims a "liberal media bias."

Wouldn't that agree with the critique I posted earlier on Chomsky, that he complains of cults and control but he essentially is a cult "Mandarin" himself?

I was a journalist for some years, a political columnist as well, back in the dark ages a quarter century ago, so I have some perspective on this and frankly, Chomsky's thoughts are pure theory and have little basis in reality.

Chico, I'm not fan of Bush either and suggested on other off-topic boards before the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions that he needed to be unelected in 2004 . . . . but I am a supporter of the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Definitely a region that needs a fork stuck in it to push it out of about 2000 years of darkness. But that's about the only thing Bush has done that I've liked . . . . and even then he's been bungling the aftermath.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Luba
July 10th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Ahh but wasn't gravity a mere theory at one point!
:p

chico2
July 10th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Rick,I agree removing the Taliban from Afghanistan was a liberation for the people and to a certain degree,I agree with removing Saddam from power...the only problem is,it was not as clearcut as removing Saddam and the people would live happily ever after.
A majority of the people of Iraq,want to live a peaceful exsistence,but how could the Americans ever leave,when as soon as something is built the insurgents destroy and kill their own....it would probably be a blood-bath if the Americans and their allies ever pulled out.
What is the solution??

Luba
July 10th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Lets all get abducted by aliens!! That's a good solution ...

Truly would there ever be an answer that us mortals could give to solve these horrendous troubles in the world today? I don't think there is or could be. There are too many involved, people,countries, nations ...too many viewpoints, too much history. War and terrorism is inevitable considering the paths that we have to look behind at!

Prin
July 10th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Rick, the main goal of showing Moan, Uh, I mean Noam is to show the other side. To make the students doubt what they see and read in the news. Nothing too radical...

chico2
July 10th, 2005, 04:54 PM
The aliens are waiting :D but I"d just like to say,I would hardly call Bush a terrorist..wars are horrid,but at least there will be a warning and the American soldiers,not always succeeding,but will try to minimize human loss.
Terrorists did not warn the people going to work the fate-ful morning of 9/11,if they had done so,I am sure people would have stayed home.
They only consider their evil deeds successful if they can kill as many"Infidels"as possible,meaning people like you and me.

doggy lover
July 11th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Terrorists did not warn the people going to work the fate-ful morning of 9/11,if they had done so,I am sure people would have stayed home.

I don't know about the British people staying home, they have this thing about no one is going to threaten their lifestyle, even with the IRA bombings years ago, they didn't stay home and hide they went on with their lives.

I agree for evertime you are threatened if you stayed hidden away you would end up paranoid. I used the underground during bomb threats what can you do life has to go on, you can't let people threaten your way of life. Or they have had a small victory in our countries freedom.

Schwinn
July 11th, 2005, 05:19 PM
The biggest difference with terrorism and invasion is you have a chance to fight back with an invasion. As I said before, terrorism is akin to running up to someone you have a beef with, sucker punching them, then running and hiding. If you have an issue, at least have the cajones to look the person in the eye and have at it "mano et mano" (if I may). I don't like war, nor do I like fighting, but I can give someone a small amount of respect who stands up for thier beliefs and sticks around to finish what they started.

Rick C
July 11th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Here's an interesting site arising out of the ashes of London and now going global with increased coverage in the media.

http://www.werenotafraid.com/

I think I'll photoshop some writing on a pic of Abby & Keeper and throw it there way . . .

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

nymph
July 12th, 2005, 03:26 PM
The biggest difference with terrorism and invasion is you have a chance to fight back with an invasion.

Self-made bombs, AK47s against Apaches, B52s, F117s and a top of the line intelligence satelite? That's a heck of a "chance to fight back", don't you think?

Again I'm not endorsing terrorism, but a full blown war does just as much damage if not more to ordinary people's lives.

Today there was a touching article on the Ottawa Citizen about a burnt, masked face of a young woman Divinia Turrell, merely 24 years-old new grad. My heart just ached with pain, so many innocent lives are lost, so many families destroyed. Now move your focus to the Middle East, this is their DAILY life, constant fear, constant despair, it's sickening just knowing that.

To read the article: http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=173b94e3-4e65-4249-88fa-ce53fb21a733

pags
July 12th, 2005, 04:06 PM
Ahh but wasn't gravity a mere theory at one point!
:p

You know, technically, gravity is still just a theory..... *duck*

Rick C
July 12th, 2005, 04:44 PM
Self-made bombs, AK47s against Apaches, B52s, F117s and a top of the line intelligence satelite? That's a heck of a "chance to fight back", don't you think?

In an unconventional war . . . . the former could be enough to beat the latter. Don't downplay the comparison.

Fortunately, the people with the self-made bombs and AK47's are blowing up their own citizens and will eventually deprive themselves of a base of support as a result. They're doomed to fail through time if that's the only tactic they have. After all, the average Joe Blow in Baghdad, when we boil it all down, probably has the same every day concerns as the average Joe Blow in Des Moines - a job, a roof and security for family.

The Bush team isn't exactly doing a bang-up (pun) job in the post-war aftermath but the other side is even worse.

By the way, an interesting read and another reference to the internal conflict within Muslim societies:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8525976/site/newsweek/

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

chico2
July 12th, 2005, 04:48 PM
Nymph,what is going on in the middle east and many other parts of the world ,has been going on for ages,it's sad..to these people it's part of daily life.
It's difficult for us to comprehend,since in Canada we are living peacefully together,be it catholics,muslims or protestants or like me,a non-believer.
I was saddened by the 3 little Shiite(sp?)boys,shot to death in their bed at night together with their mother in Bagdad,were any American soldiers involved? No,just murderers who believe everyone should be of the same beliefs as they :evil:
This is exactly what would happen,were the Americans and their allies to leave,no different from tribal wars in Africa.There would be genocide.
A majority of the Iraqi people want to live in peace in a democracy,but these killers just will not allow it.

Schwinn
July 12th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Self-made bombs, AK47s against Apaches, B52s, F117s and a top of the line intelligence satelite? That's a heck of a "chance to fight back", don't you think?

Again I'm not endorsing terrorism, but a full blown war does just as much damage if not more to ordinary people's lives.



Point taken. My only point was that when you declare war on someone, they know it's coming, and it's a fair fight only in the sense that it is a fight. A terrorist attack is like running up an punching someone then running away before they knew they were fighting anyone. Also, ideally, (again, IDEALLY, though this isn't always the case), generally a war targets, or is SUPPOSED to target the enemies combatants, those who chose to take part in the fight (this of course is discounting "collateral damage", when intelligence is wrong, or the odd time the general populace is purposefully targetted, which I also think is wrong). Terrorism is designed to kill as many people as possible, regardless of whether they are for or against you, or how innocent or removed from the fight they are. I don't like war, and for the most part don't agree with it, but when there is a war, I can usually respect each side to some degree. With terrorism, it's pure cowardice. The only good thing about terrorism is it usually involves a suicide. This is one of the few cases where I can say "good riddance" with a clear conscience.

chico2
July 13th, 2005, 09:32 AM
Schwinn,well said :thumbs up that's exactly the point I was trying to make,unfortunately my writingskills are not as good as yours and is often missunderstood.

nymph
July 13th, 2005, 10:08 AM
Schwinn: I totally understand your point, but don't really agree with it. For everything you said on terrorism, replace that with war it would still stand. For once I actually agree with Bush: terrorism is a war, *we* are at war against terrorists.

Behind every war there is a reason (or should be one), then what is the reason behind this war against terrorism? It seems that we are fighting for the symptom but not the real disease.

Schwinn
July 13th, 2005, 10:43 AM
I'm not saying I disagree with it being a war against terrorism. I totally think it is, and it has to be stopped. My only point was that terrorism is the cowards way to fight. Personally, I think that every group that is taking responsibility, instead of saying, "Well, we need to verify it was them", we should say, "Okay, you want to take responsibility, then we'll go after you". And if six groups do, then eradicate all of them. The world would be a better place without them.

chico2
July 13th, 2005, 11:19 AM
Nymph,I understand your feelings,some of my friends feel the same way,look for the root of the problem,reason with the terrorists,find out what they need...and want.
The problem is,there is no reasoning with extreemists,it's their way or no way :evil:
They are not going to ask us what we can do for them,before they kill us...all they want is to disrupt our way of life,cause terror and mayhem in a murderous cowardly way.
Most of us do not carry the kind of hatred they feel for us Infidels,hence it's difficult to understand.
There are 20 million Muslims living in Europe peacefully,most enjoying the freedom of their life and can still practise their chosen religion.
There is only one way to handle extreemist murderers,it's to hunt them down and destroy them,although I believe we will never see an end..
9/11 was a real wake-up call,I will never forget the horror of that day!!and no,I do not blame the Americans.

jjgeonerd
July 13th, 2005, 01:37 PM
I would say some terrorists can be reasoned and negotiated with...some cannot. For instance:

The Palestinians all want freedom from Israel and land that Israel has taken away. This is an instance where terrorists can be negotiated with. They only use terrorism because no one will sell them, and they can't afford, standard military items. Too bad their former leader refused to accept a pretty good deal with Israel a while ago...Arafat sold them out.

Al Quaeda and it's many cells on the other hand just wants to force their religion on everyone. There is no negotiating with these type of terrorists. If there was, who would it be?

chico2
July 13th, 2005, 02:16 PM
JJeonard,I agree,Palestine is a totally different kind of conflict..they are fighting for what they consider their land,maybe with Arafat gone,there will be a solution.
I remember watching a program showing Israeli tanks destroying an old mans olive groves,his life and livelyhood.Terrorism is never a good thing,but how do they fight a US-backed Israeli army?

melanie
July 14th, 2005, 06:17 PM
all terrorism and war is sick and grose and sad...the biggest victims of war are found to be woman, children and animals...... i think it is wrong to use violence to force an opinion, situation or belief, but ppl with half a brain take this route i suppose....

and thats the problem, terrorists and extremists of all kinds do truly have half a brain, lack of moral and are jsut sad and cobnfused, you cannot negotiate or convince such ppl, any one who uses any form of violence is a nut case plain and simple, and that goes for religions groups, societies, governments the lot.....

but then again i have often supported acts of minor non human eco terrorism, that is putting sugar or sand in logging truck petrol tanks, or concreting theie tools to the ground, often this is the only way to sto[p them until other action can be taken....


BUT this is never ever done to harm humans, only machinery, which i suppose should not be called terrorism really but jsut being helpful :D we shoudl really look at changing that name....

i do not support ecoterrorism like the sinking of the rainbow warrior, that sort of stuff is jsut disgusting and wrong and evil and heartbreaking.....

oh well im with the aliens, i ve got my bag and dog packed now im just waiting.....(luba i will bring some cheeses for the trip, could you please bring fruit and chico the breads, if anyone else is coming be aware human snacks are strictly BYO ok, dog snacks will be supplied, sorry we dont have cat ones here)

Luba
July 14th, 2005, 06:49 PM
ROTFLMHO!!


Well Mel you go first then come pick me up..I don't wanna board alone!! :D

Same goes for T.P bring your own.... ;) and don't squeeze my Charmin!

Schwinn
July 15th, 2005, 11:32 AM
but then again i have often supported acts of minor non human eco terrorism, that is putting sugar or sand in logging truck petrol tanks, or concreting theie tools to the ground, often this is the only way to sto[p them until other action can be taken....



i do not support ecoterrorism like the sinking of the rainbow warrior, that sort of stuff is jsut disgusting and wrong and evil and heartbreaking.....



And the difference between these two would be...

Sorry, Mel, you are one of my favourite people, but these two acts are one and the same, other than one is for your cause, and the other is against.

Dogastrophe
July 15th, 2005, 11:57 AM
but then again i have often supported acts of minor non human eco terrorism, that is putting sugar or sand in logging truck petrol tanks, or concreting theie tools to the ground, often this is the only way to sto[p them until other action can be taken....


BUT this is never ever done to harm humans, only machinery, which i suppose should not be called terrorism really but jsut being helpful :D we shoudl really look at changing that name....



A friend of mine, who used to work in a sawmill in BC, has been sporting a glass eye since his mid-20s because a 'peace loving' environmentalist decided to spike several trees in a stand that were due to be harvested, which unfortunately wasn't detected. He was working near the main gang saw in the mill when the blade hit the spike and shattered causing shrapnel to fly through the air. Several pieces hit him in the head with enough force to knock the saftey glasses off his head. One piece took out his eye and had the real potential to kill him and others in the mill. I fail to see how this type of action is any different than planting a pipe bomb.

What would happen if the sugar you put in a logging truck didn't gum the works up until the driver was travelling down a mountain switch-back or was moving along at highway speed when all of a sudden they lose their engine power, which in turn can cause their air brake compressor to fail?

Jasmine
July 15th, 2005, 01:57 PM
:( Hi guys

I work in London and was in the city on 7/7 at Canary Wharf. The nearest bombing was more than a mile away from us, but we were all sitting there watching the news unfold on the internet, in this building that was flattened by the IRA docklands bombing 8 years ago, terrified that it was them and they were going to come back and have another go.

Anyway, I'd driven in that day and so crammed my tiny car with 4 colleagues and gave them lifts out of London and home. It would seem it was only the buses and underground trains that stopped working and so lots of people got home on the overground trains. My cousin though had to walk 2.5 hours to get home as she works near Buckingham Palace and lives in the north of the city!

It was very emotional yesterday, with the 2 minute silence at mid-day. Everyone stopped and thousands gathered in Trafalgar Square and near Kings Cross to pay their respects according to the news.

Whoever is responsible for the atrocity, please, let's not argue on here and let's just remember the 54 who lost their lives and hope the remaining perpetrators are brought to justice (and that the ones who carried out the act and are now dead, never find peace.)

Schwinn
July 15th, 2005, 03:32 PM
:( Hi guys

I work in London and was in the city on 7/7 at Canary Wharf. The nearest bombing was more than a mile away from us, but we were all sitting there watching the news unfold on the internet, in this building that was flattened by the IRA docklands bombing 8 years ago, terrified that it was them and they were going to come back and have another go.

Anyway, I'd driven in that day and so crammed my tiny car with 4 colleagues and gave them lifts out of London and home. It would seem it was only the buses and underground trains that stopped working and so lots of people got home on the overground trains. My cousin though had to walk 2.5 hours to get home as she works near Buckingham Palace and lives in the north of the city!

It was very emotional yesterday, with the 2 minute silence at mid-day. Everyone stopped and thousands gathered in Trafalgar Square and near Kings Cross to pay their respects according to the news.

Whoever is responsible for the atrocity, please, let's not argue on here and let's just remember the 54 who lost their lives and hope the remaining perpetrators are brought to justice (and that the ones who carried out the act and are now dead, never find peace.)

Well said.

melanie
July 15th, 2005, 05:59 PM
let me make it clear that i am happy for ppl to disagree with me, dont apologise, its ok... im glad you disagree, its proves you ahve a brain of your own thats working fiiine...and it shows you read my posts :p :D

actually to me there is a huge difference between putting sugar in a petrol tank of a logging machine to slow the physical process so ppl can get to the politicians or try and force change on a decision with foresty ppl or such

and the french climbing on board a peaceful ship in a peaceful harbor and blowing the crap outa every one on it deliberatly to kill those on board, destroying lives, ideals, future relations , never apologising to this day, oh there is as big difference.....

or spiking a tree to harm an innocent person for life, disabling them when they were jsut doing a job, every one needs food on the table doesnt matter what you do.....and no one shoudl suffer such horror at any stage esp when just doing the job their paid for, that is evil and wrong and disgusting and certianly not ecologically sound in my mind....

as i said any form of action on humans is terrorism in the true form, i do not believe filling a tank to be violent or terrorism really, costly to the logging company but i odnt mind that at all, its effective..., and as far as spiking trees goes, again that is a pure form of terrorism as it is done with the intention of hurting someone, that is not ecoterrorism at all as far as i can see....thats jsut plain dumb and evil... to spike a tree, one knows exactly what they do, it is not unintentional and certainly not done in ecoterrorism actions in this country that i can assure you, in this country that is considered pure terrorism simple, has nothing ecological about it and certainly what we consider un australian....

i do believe we need to start to redefine what we considered ecoterrorism as in this day and age you cant have terrorism in anything and expect it to be acceptable.... how about affirmative non violent eco actions???yep i like that one, so ecoterrorism does not exist to me anymore, it is now affirmative non violent eco actions, ahhh now how PC is that....


i grew up with a father that was a 21yo policeman living in auckland harbor and was a member of greenpeace at the time of the rainbow warrior bombing. the effects of the sinking of the rainbow warrior have had mjr impact on his life, certainyl some that i have felt first hand and certianly have effected how our father tried to raise us. it broke his heart and it has never fully healed, i know the effects of terrorism, i know the pain and sadness they cause. in my father this action caused some amount of hate and sadness....

i know first hand the long term effects such violence can have on ppl such as racism and intolerance of others (eg. my father has forced a life long boycott and ban of all french products in my family by which we all strictly abide),

pouring sugar in a petrol tank to slow down logging as far as i can see is not even in the same ball park as bombings and such..deliberatly or even unintentionally tryign to hurt a person is wrong and certainly not comparable to slowing down a logging truck, such action against fellow humans are unforgivable.. and i can assure you my fathers broken heart would most definatly agree....

now off to see about a few affirmative non violent eco actions....

Schwinn
July 15th, 2005, 06:08 PM
pouring sugar in a petrol tank to slow down logging as far as i can see is not even in the same ball park as bombings and such..deliberatly or even unintentionally tryign to hurt a person is wrong and certainly not comparable to slowing down a logging truck, such action against fellow humans are unforgivable.. and i can assure you my fathers broken heart would most definatly agree....



Ah, but there's the rub. Unintentionally hurting someone...the sugar doesn't cause the problem instantaneously, it happens at a later point, after the truck has been running, perhaps going down a steep hill and then just when he applies the Jake brake, no engine=no brake. By your definition, this would be wrong.

My own personal feeling is that terrorism is wrong against any law abiding entity. Part of that reasoning comes from the number of times I've seen these so-called eco-terrorists do thier damage in the name of thier cause, only to find out later they don't understand what it is they're fighting against. I've been wrongfully targetted, and I have wrongfully targetted.

melanie
July 15th, 2005, 06:22 PM
well there you go... is that a small amount of sugar??? the only time i saw ppl put sugar in a tank they used about 3kg of sugar and the engine did not start at all, the whole thing was buggered, i never knew if you used less that they could actually move the vehicle, i was under the impression anysugar stoped a motor, perhaps small amounts dont i wonder??

well you learn something new every day, so now we will stick to concreting in wheeles or tools then i suppose.... that is very effective, mix concrete, take it in and dig a hole, put tools in and then fill with concrete and wiat to set.... really slows them down then./...


look i really only supprt such action when someones life is in danger (be it animal, mineral or organic) and tehre is need for immeadiate action to save them... for instance years ago 300000 kangaroos were going to be kulled as they were living on land due for a development, no other reason... i personally could not allow them to kill another creature without at least trying to stop them, and we caused them so much troble they left the roos alone and took the devp elsewhere, i personnaly find such situations emergencies nad justify concreting tools, the fence, ourselves or whatever to stop them entering the land and killing the innocent......

but to take action against another huamn, who you dont know, you have no beef with, who is jsut an innocent bystander, well that is just sad..... and i for one am totally sick to death of friggin terrorists and their stupid crap, i jsut truly dont understand why someone would go and deliberatly hurt another person, i truly dont get it and dont understand who or what sort of ppl they are.....i am sick of what they want to turn the world into, i am sick of them infringing on our freedom and making us feel insecure, im suck of them friggin up society and making every one sad.....

im jsut sick of them........ and im sick of what it is doing to ppl..... :mad: :mad: ,

jjgeonerd
July 15th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Looks like Al Quaeda:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/07/15/international/i050429D02.DTL

Just curious Melanie...are you against all logging in your country or just the irresponsible tree mining variety? I just wonder because this is also a big issue here in the pacific NW, US, and I wonder if the ELF people here want all logging to stop, or it just to be done more responsibly.

Mining too? Australia has quite a large mining industry.

I'm with Schwinn. Terrorism is terrorism. Eventually even the little stunts like sugar in the gas tank will kill someone...then its just like all the rest.

babyrocky1
July 15th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Ive been reading these posts with great interest, I have to say that for the most part I don't understand the details of the wars in the middle east because the whole situation terrifies me so much that i have a tendencie to "bury my head in the sand" and avoid documentaries etc. on the subjects, that being sid, I cant stand George Bush, his policies on anything. I have no respect for him and I am very anti-war as Im sure we all are. Im not naive enough t believe that there is never a time to go to war, but I certainly wouldn't follow that man there! Iraq wasnt all that complicated for me, there was no link to the terrrorist attacks, there was no evidence that there were weapons of mass destruction, the Un wanted more time, and the Americans could not get consensus among "allied nations" including Canada, and that decision I am very proud of! I protested that war with Rocky sporting a "pit bulls for Peace" sign! What to do now that they have invaded, well sorry no clue there, obviously they have to find away to "clean up the mess" Israel and Palestine, well it obviously takes a much bigger mind than mine for a solution there. I dont think we can ever negotiate with terrorists, but we can look at the causes and try to understand, we HAVE to understand how reltively "normal" people can even half heartedly sympathise with them. For this the policies of the west towards the middle east have to be looked at, again, by bigger minds than mine ;) Eco-terrorism, Im confused, I thought that Eco terrorism was like when the Bush #1 went at Sadam the first time and Sadam set fire to the OIl Feildls causing environmental destruction. Ive always thought that was what was meant by eco-terrorism.. I don't think that putting sugar in someones gas tank can nearly be compared to the sinking of the Rainbow Warrier! As Mel says, it was not meant to cause harm. If the truck got in an accident because of it, it would have been an irresponsible act, but not an intentional one! Im all for civil disobedience as long as nobody gets hurt. ERRR Responsible Civil Disobedience :crazy: Gosh you people make me think too much! I need a drink again LOL

jjgeonerd
July 15th, 2005, 07:18 PM
There is a fair amount of eco-terrorism here in the PNW. Here it encompasses things such as sugaring gas tanks, concreting tools, damaging equipment, spiking trees (putting a spike in a tree so when the logger goes to cut it down their saw hits the metal spike), burning down new homes and so on. There was a family's new home (under construction) burned down here a couple weeks ago. Eco terrorism is suspected because the house was in an outlying wooded area. This is fairly common.

I guess what Saddam did could also be classified as eco-terrorism in a broad sense.

I also support civil disobediance. I would classify that as picketing, sit-ins, petitions, etc. The problem with spiking trees, damaging equipment, etc. is that eventually someone gets hurt or killed. It may have been an accident, but it is still a crime and infringed upon someone elses rights and/or well-being. Isn't manslaughter defined as accidental death?

As far as the Rainbow Warrior goes...I just watched a documentary on the topic. This was done by the french version of the CIA and according to them the intent was to just sink the boat, not hurt any people. The agents claim they were unaware there was anyone on the boat. If this is true, it is a prime example of what can go wrong and why ANY activities such as this should not be condoned.

babyrocky1
July 15th, 2005, 07:40 PM
Yes, i see what you mean JJ. I guess the bottom line there as far as the Rainbow Warrier is concerned is whether or not you believe it was accidental. I think that Civil Disobedience and protests sometimes extend to peacefully stopping something from happening, lke when you chain yourself to a tree to stop it from being cut down, etc. Im not excusing the people who did the "vandalising" I guess I would call it, The destrucion of property is what was meant and it lead to unintentional violence and so the people who did it whether on one side or another are responsible for it. I guess in the case of the Rainbow Warrier Ive always believed it was more sinister than just destruction of property but I have to admit that I may see it that way because of the "side I am on" I dont have any proof of it. I tend to be more leary of the "powers that be" rather than defenders of the environment.I just re--read your post, burnning down peoples homes etc. I dont equate that with minor destruction of property either, thats just crazy and alot of what your talking about sounds as if anyone would know that it could be extrememly dangerous so I dont think I would qualify that as accidental. Even the spiking of the trees, it seems to me that that kind of "accident" could have been forseen. I was referring more to the sugar in the gas tank.. I would have thought that would have stopped the truck too! Concreting the wheels of the truck??? doesnt sound dangerous or major to me. Ive never done anything like that but in really extreme circumstances I can understand people that do.

jjgeonerd
July 15th, 2005, 07:52 PM
Ya...I'm not totally convinced the Rainbow Warrior deaths were accidental either...of course the french are going to say they were. I just used it as an example.

Peaceful, non-vandalizing (is that a real word :p ) type protests I am all for.

babyrocky1
July 15th, 2005, 08:01 PM
Ya...
Peaceful, non-vandalizing (is that a real word :p ) type protests I am all for.Peaceful, non-vandalizing, PIT BULLwelcoming, protests I am all for.So we are ageed then, see ya at the next one LOL

melanie
July 17th, 2005, 05:54 PM
4 days ago i saw an interview with the french primeminister, jack shurack (ha lol sorry spelling is crap). well he said that 'no one was supposed to die on the rainbow warrior and that was neer their intention' lol my big butt it was.... sorry but when you bomb something your trying to hurt, plain and simple, and boy did they hurt....

and its easy to say after the event you didnt mean to do it, it jsut happened boo hoo. anyone who would destroy and harm a greenpeace ship is pretty evil really, that is a ship that carries no weapons, is undefended and fights for the env, as far as im concerned anyone who wants to destroy the env and greenpeace wears their intentions lound and clear, and still do and have not realyl changed their env ethics (govt not the individual). downright dirty if you ask me....

of course more recent events need our focus now, rather than something that broke a nations heart a fair while ago, that broke the hearst of generations..... but the reason i mentioned it in the first place was to give example of non muslim terrorists and to show the deep long lasting effects of such violence. effects my family will feel for a long time.

saddam is an evil waste of space that is in no way an eco terrorist or even slightly comparable to all those ppl who love the env with such passion and heart, sorry sadam is hate, eco conservation often represents a type of love..... and any way eco terrorism no longer exists to me, it is now affirmative non violent eco actions, and i am emailing every one and trying to get them to use the words in stead of a reference to violence.....

again spiking trees is not ecologically sound, it kills the tree so i would imagine that would rarely be done by the true conservationist, why kill the tree and pretend to save it, i would imagine thay are stunts pulled by ppl opposed to certian developments, actions and such and not necessarily the env action groups.... again it would kill a tree, thats a common way of removing neighbors trees, put copper nails or spikes in them and wach em die....not ecologically sound if you ask me....

burning houses- again would take a prettyy dumb conservationist to burn a house releaseing carbon into the atmosphere, and creating a demand or need for further building materials, never been done here, again i would thing it was the NIMBYS (NIMBYS 'not in my backyard' ppl). never heard of such a thing here....

jjgeonerd, i have answered your Q in a new thread rather than here...

LL1
July 17th, 2005, 06:12 PM
I agree with you Melanie,and of course this is not related to the original subject in this post,I want to make that clear,but looking back on history,one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

actually to me there is a huge difference between putting sugar in a petrol tank of a logging machine to slow the physical process so ppl can get to the politicians or try and force change on a decision with foresty ppl or such

babyrocky1
July 20th, 2005, 07:56 PM
Mel I agree with you completely, I just had the terminology mixed up, I think I was thinking of environmental terrorism, what ever you call it, what I meant was that one of the things Sadam did was use the environment as a hostage so to speak, like Ill poison your air and your water and thats what I thought eco terrorism was.

Jasmine
July 21st, 2005, 05:19 PM
Well, it happened again today, and frankly I am scared! I know that is what the terrorists want and so I shouldn't allow it to happen but if anyones way to work was currently being targeted by suicide bombers, would anyone feel any different? I don't know.

Anyway, I'm going to keep riding the tube as what else can we do? Barricade ourselves in our homes?

I shall be off to work tomorrow - please wish me luck. "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more" Shakespeare - Henry Vs battle speech.

May these bombers know eternal torment, where they expected to receive eternal bliss.

babyrocky1
July 21st, 2005, 05:45 PM
I didnt have the news on all day, my sister and family are in London, can anyone fill me in???? I cant call anyone long distance fromm hre I am at work

jjgeonerd
July 21st, 2005, 05:50 PM
I didnt have the news on all day, my sister and family are in London, can anyone fill me in???? I cant call anyone long distance fromm hre I am at work

3 more bombs in the tube, 1 on a bus. Only 1 injury reported...apparently incurred while trying to evacuate the train. Bombs were much less powerful than 2 weeks ago...officials suspect that only the blasting caps detonated, not the whole bomb.

That is the latest I have heard.

Rick C
July 21st, 2005, 06:05 PM
May these bombers know eternal torment, where they expected to receive eternal bliss.

A little levity on a dark day . . . . one of the funniest things ever written courtesy of The Onion.

http://www.b.150m.com/satire/hell.html

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

babyrocky1
July 21st, 2005, 06:13 PM
Thanks so much JJ. My imagination was getting way out of hand!

melanie
July 21st, 2005, 06:14 PM
im confused, it happened again you say, it never made our news, may not have been to serious i suppose but then i dont know. i wonder what thats about.....

Schwinn
July 21st, 2005, 10:39 PM
Personally, I don't think it was the same people. It sounds like they might have been a different type of bomb, and this one sounded a little sloppy. I don't know how much better that is, but I do think that this was a bad copycat.

I hope they get caught, and between the scene and jail, decided to "resist arrest".

melanie
July 22nd, 2005, 02:20 AM
hey someone was jsut telling me that becuase these bombs didnt go off they will be able to trace the bombs and their makers, well i bet those mongrels didnt think of that one, now they will truly be stuffed, good... :mad:

Jasmine
July 22nd, 2005, 03:42 AM
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have been so thoughtless and should have said that no-one was injured in the latest incident.

Nobody has been arrested yet, but people were seen fleeing the scenes and so I guess should be apprehended.

doggy lover
July 22nd, 2005, 03:52 PM
My Uncle and cousin just missed the last one by minutes, thank god. I wish they would let the British people get hold of these people first they would fix them :evil:

Prin
July 22nd, 2005, 04:39 PM
I hope you all get over this and can get on living safely soon. :fingerscr :grouphug:

doggy lover
July 22nd, 2005, 06:05 PM
I just heard on the news that one man has been killed and others arrested in yesterdays atempted bombing, in London

melanie
July 22nd, 2005, 06:31 PM
thier sayng tisd the forensic fantasy and that they will get heaps out of this on these monsters, yaya pretty obvious were dealing with some pretty stupid ppl here, and stupidity is prettyy dangerous...

CyberKitten
July 22nd, 2005, 06:58 PM
I have to say - now that we have this diversion of the Rainbow warrier and ecoterrorism (How did we get there - I jumped part of the thread) - that I never considered Greenpeace ecoterrorists. A few wayward souls committ ecoterrorism. I am more inclined to think of Bhopal as ecoterorism - or Chernoble. Ecoterrorism courtesy of the state you might say. I oppose nuclear teasting so was glad Greenpeace was there in NZ.

It's becoming a scary world to live in - just look at the famous clock on the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. We are getting closer to midnight, sigh!!! A few yrs ago, some Jehova's Witnesses arrived at my door trying to sell me the Watchtower. They raved about Godless communism and how safe the world is now that we have no more of it in the Soviet Union, etc etc. I pointed out how we now have these independent countries - many of whom are fighting against each other in the name of religion (Bosnia - where I had at the time just recently been, trying to save some of the innocent victims of that mindless slaughter - comes to mind) and that in actual fact, the world is in more danger. Think of all those out of work nuclear and bio weapons scientists and researchers who need money!! And now Pakistan and India have "THE" bomb!! North Korea is not far behind. It scares me immesnely thinking of all that!

My sister was in NYC at the WTC on 9/11 and so it came home to me. I also have seen some pretty horrible things in my work in the various war torn countries. It is hard to believe what some so called humans will do to others - and I include anyone who engages in warfare here. Did anyone seriously think helping and arming bin laden would not come back to haunt us in the west? And then there is the tight cosy relationship the current US administration has with the Saudi regime. (a country where the life of a woman or a child is practically worthless)

And why on earth did no one understand that going to war in Iraq (when it was well known - even by the CIA that Saddam did not have nukes) would serve to create more and not less terrorists. I really do think Rosalie Bertrell is correct and we are engaged in World War 3 and no, I don't think it started on Sept 11, 2001. Anyway - enough of this dismal topic!