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Live 8, Good Cause Or Not?

Britishvixen21
July 6th, 2005, 12:15 PM
So I wanted to put my ten cents worth in here and im sure its going to cause a stir as most of my off topic opinions do, and remember this is only my opinion and im happy to hear others. so here goes......


Seeing pictures today of people rioting in Edinburgh at the G8 Summit for MORE money to be given to Africa made me so mad!!!

Over the last 20 years the world has given Africa over 400 BILLION dollars, and still they are living in poverty. When is enough enough. Last night on news week an african ambassador was saying that there is huge corruption in Africa and a lot of that money was lost to that. Well why on earth would the world leaders be stupid enough to keep giving!!!

Not to mention that poverty is rife in our own countries. How about giving back within our own country to the tax payers and war veterans that live in poverty. here are some alarming statistics from Canada alone and I know that its the same in most of the G8 nations.

552,000 Toronto households have incomes below the poverty line

250,000 Toronto households pay more than 30 per cent of their incomes on rent

71,000 households are now on the municipal waiting list for affordable social housing, and

31,985 homeless individuals (including 4,779 children) stayed in a Toronto shelter at least once during 2002.

In the midst of a growing economy more than one million children, or nearly one child in six, still live in poverty in Canada.

in 2000 it was reported that 2.5% of all seniors in Canada lived in Poverty. living on less that $9000 a year, thats $750 a month!

Sixty-five percent of Toronto's very poor are newcomers, most of them from non-white countries.

Im not even going to get into how poor some of our war veterans are, people who fought tooth and nail to save our country!

I could go on and on and on, but for some of the poverty in this country and the us visit www.unitedwayofcanada.ca and unitedwayofamerica.com respectivly. I dont want to be helping out Africans who quite frankly are obviously not helping themselves.

For instance, the Aids epedemic in Africa has been rife for over 20 years, and since then organisations like Care USA have been reaching out to africans to teach them about safe sex! after 20 years you would think that the numbers would be going down, a difference would be made. Africans would stop having unprotected sex with people they did not know and then bringing it home to there wife and kids. But no there not, so im sorry you have to be willing to help yourself first. Quit having unprotected sex (and yes i know condoms arent easily available, but if i dont have a condom I dont have sex its that easy) and quit pro creating stop the poverty. If you are a mother of 6 kids 4 of whom have died and the other 2 have aids that i gave them and im pregnant again with another baby who will die. STOP HAVING THEM!!!!

I think we have enough trouble on our own doorstep before we go running off helping out people that cant even help themselves.

400 BILLION DOLLARS PEOPLE!!! thats not chump change!!

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 12:22 PM
LOL, BritishVixen... the other day I turned to my boyfriend and said the same thing. I mean I am all for helping those less fortunate- but when are we being taken advantage of? When is enough enough? Why can't we help those that want to be helped in our own countries and then help others.

Just like any situation, the weak cannot help the weak... we need to keep our own countries out of poverty before sending so much money to others.

Britishvixen21
July 6th, 2005, 12:31 PM
I didnt even watch the Live 8 concert I dont want to be a hypocrite. Maybe Mr. geldoff should look at the poverty in his own country and how he can stop that before he goes and gets up on his soap box about bloody africa! thanks for agreeing Angel

Luba
July 6th, 2005, 12:36 PM
Comparing poverty between rich and third world nations is ridiculous.

No matter what cause there are extremists. The organizers of Live8 or any other worthy cause are not hand holders.

I suppose you've missed his statements and Bono's requesting no violence at the protest?

Wherever you go and whatever you do there are those who will do differently then what you choose. Does this mean you don't fight for your beliefs? NO
It means you keep fighting and set a positive example. People are passionate about things and obviously their passions come out in the form of violence. Do I agree, of course not...but silence is NOT the answer.

nymph
July 6th, 2005, 12:43 PM
Poverty in Canada and all wealthy nations cannot compare to the poverty in Africa: people, children, millions of them, are literally dying of poverty. I'm not discounting our domestic problems, but the magnitude of poverty in Africa is just astonishing.

I don't think the goal of Live8 was fundraising, it was more of an awareness compaign, which I applaud and fully support. If the world knew about the holocaust, perhaps millions of Jews would have been saved, just a thought. As a fellow human being, I believe that we should help those who can't help themselves.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't try to stop something as the LIVE 8 Concert, I actually avoided watching it as well... personally, I'm not interested in it. I didn't see Africa sending us any sympathy letters when my cousin and many others burned to death in the World Trade Center. However, ... I don't hold it against them that they are in poverty- there is tragedy everywhere. I just won't go out of my way to support something like that...not because I think it is wrong per say, but I worry about other things more important to me personally- I can't worry about every cause in the world. I think British Vixen is right though, when is enough- enough? How much more can the world do?

I think maybe it can have something to do with the fact that we've been hearing of poverty in Africa FOREVER! After a while people become numb to hearing about it... especially when they start to face problems in their own countries.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 12:48 PM
Poverty in Canada and all wealthy nations cannot compare to the poverty in Africa: people, children, millions of them, are literally dying of poverty. I'm not discounting our domestic problems, but the magnitude of poverty in Africa is just astonishing.

I don't think the goal of Live8 was fundraising, it was more of an awareness compaign, which I applaud and fully support. If the world knew about the holocaust, perhaps millions of Jews would have been saved, just a thought. As a fellow human being, I believe that we should help those who can't help themselves.

I agree.. it was an awareness capaign... and I agree with your comment about the holocaust. Good for them for doing this, I would never say anything other than it was in pure morality on their part.

Writing4Fun
July 6th, 2005, 12:48 PM
I don't agree with sending them more money. Like you said, it'll just end up being taken by the governments anyway. I don't agree with rioting to get my point across. I do agree that people need to want to help themselves first, before anyone else can help them. But can we really blame these people? This is the only life they know. They don't realize it can be any better. Think about it. If aliens came to this world and told you that it's possible for you to live to be a healthy three hundred years old, turn invisible and fly on your own, would you believe them? :p

What's the answer? I don't know. I don't think anyone really knows. What was the point of Live 8? To raise awareness. Which it did, for me, at least. Our governments are always so willing to move in to help other countries when they're being opressed, or ruled by dictators, anything else we think is "wrong". Why are we so unwilling to help these countries? Is their cause not "noble" enough for us? Is it not "wrong" enough for thousands of children to die on a daily basis? :(

lezzpezz
July 6th, 2005, 12:56 PM
Quote: If aliens came to this world and told you that it's possible for you to live to be a healthy three hundred years old, turn invisible and fly on your own, would you believe them?


I know Tom Cruise would!! :crazy:

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 12:58 PM
LOL, good one- I actually laughed out loud in my office and now the people outside think I'm crazy!

:crazy:

Roxy's_MA
July 6th, 2005, 01:08 PM
Unfortunatly these people have a hard time helping themselves when they don't even have food and drinking water.

I think the money should be given to organizations already in place that help with problems associated with poverty. I agree that there is no point giving money to a corrupt government.

Although, I can't help but feel that everytime I pay taxes I am giving my money to a corrupt government.

Luba
July 6th, 2005, 01:10 PM
Comparing third world poverty to the World Trade Centre bombings? Come on now!!

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 01:20 PM
If you read my post you would see that I wasn't comparing.

When it comes down to it other countries help each other out and thats great- but how can we keep pouring money into a country that won't even help itself? how? All I was saying is that MOST of these countries in Africa would cheer for an American tragedy as opposed to help my country if they could. A lot of our soldiers have died there helping them. I don't appreciate your "Come on now" when you didn't understand what I meant... and are you trying to say that 9/11 wasn't as big of a tragedy as I know it to be?

Additionally... if you noticed I said I don't hold it against them. I know if they knew better maybe they would see things differently. However that is the way it is right now... only education can help this.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 01:30 PM
Comparing third world poverty to the World Trade Centre bombings? Come on now!!


And for the record... the attacks on 9/11 were not bombings... they flew friggin' planes into our innocent citizens! Our families. You know how it feels to see people cheering for that?

However... this is not a topic for this thread so I won't even continue.

Britishvixen21
July 6th, 2005, 01:30 PM
I dont disagree that it is a noble cause, however 400 billion dollars is a lot of money. and I think it is up to the individual to give not the goverment. I dont have a choice to pay my taxes, however I would like a choice in how it is spent. We need to help the people at home before we can give out to others. I would rather my tax dollars pay to help a child eat here in Canada, rather than a child in Africa. im sorry but thats how I feel.
As for awareness there are so many worthy causes here at home that need awareness that dont have the publicity that Africa has.
I believe that every individual on this earth can help themselves, the poeple of Africa I believe rely to heavily on handouts now to want to help themselves.
and the real question is if the table was turned do you think Africa would help us? without sounding racist I dont think they would.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 01:32 PM
I'm on the same page as you BritishVixen... I'm sorry if I sound cold-hearted but those are my feelings, it is my opinon.

nymph
July 6th, 2005, 01:40 PM
angeleyes: Wouldn't you agree that even that the billions of dollars would only help one person, one child from starving to death, for that one person it would mean the whole world? What if that one person is your loved one?

I always remember a scene from Schindler's List, towards the end when Oscar was getting ready to fleed the country, all these holocaust survivors gathered together and handed Oscar a ring, which engraved with a quote from the Talmud "Whoever saves one life saves the world entire"

Perhaps if we start to look at dying African people as human beings rather than accounting numbers, we would realize the urgency to help them.

LavenderRott
July 6th, 2005, 01:44 PM
I wouldn't try to stop something as the LIVE 8 Concert, I actually avoided watching it as well... personally, I'm not interested in it. I didn't see Africa sending us any sympathy letters when my cousin and many others burned to death in the World Trade Center. However, ... I don't hold it against them that they are in poverty- there is tragedy everywhere. I just won't go out of my way to support something like that...not because I think it is wrong per say, but I worry about other things more important to me personally- I can't worry about every cause in the world. I think British Vixen is right though, when is enough- enough? How much more can the world do?

I think maybe it can have something to do with the fact that we've been hearing of poverty in Africa FOREVER! After a while people become numb to hearing about it... especially when they start to face problems in their own countries.

Sorry, but the poverty in Africa means, in part, that most of the population that lives outside of the more populated cities don't know how to read or write so they wouldn't have sent you a sympathy card. Also, they don't have electricity so they didn't see the bombing of the World Trade Center on their T.V. Oh, but even if they did have electricty,they don't have money for food so they probably don't have one. And chances are, they don't even know what the World Trade Center was.

I am sure that not one of us can really imagine the kind of desperate poverty that exists in parts of the world. (Well, except the couple of members of the forum who work in such career fields that actually allows them to go to these places and offer what help they can.)

I'm sorry. I don't mean to minimize your grief or your loss. I just think that we take so much for granted sometimes that we forget just how lucky we are, even when things are bad. I can not imagine living in a place where there is no electricty or heat. Where I can't walk to my refridgerator and get a meal for my children. Where if my child gets ill, I can't take him to a doctor. Just a couple of weeks ago, my son had Scarlet Fever. A round of antibiotics and he is right as rain. In Africa, Scarlet Fever can still kill a child! Medicines are not readily available and neither is the refridgerator to keep it in.

No, I don't think that handing money to a corrupt government will solve the problem. But sending in well funded agencies to provide education, medical care, food, and other things that would teach these people how to live past the age of 40 would probably be a good thing to do.

nymph
July 6th, 2005, 01:46 PM
You know how it feels to see people cheering for that?


Just some background info: the footage you saw on CNN of some Middle Eastern people cheering the 911 bombing, handing out food/candies on the streets, well those footages were actually FAKE! These were footages from the 1990 Gulf War when the coalition freed Kuwait from the Iraqi occupation. That was people from Kuwait cheering for coalition forces.

You could search for historical video footages from your local library and compare notes with the footage CNN showed on the day of 911 bombing.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, couldn't resist to respond to this. Now let's get back to the original topic.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Just some background info: the footage you saw on CNN of some Middle Eastern people cheering the 911 bombing, handing out food/candies on the streets, well those footages were actually FAKE! These were footages from the 1990 Gulf War when the coalition freed Kuwait from the Iraqi occupation. That was people from Kuwait cheering for coalition forces.

You could search for historical video footages from your local library and compare notes with the footage CNN showed on the day of 911 bombing.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, couldn't resist to respond to this. Now let's get back to the original topic.


What about the Muslim people who live in America cheering? I saw that with my own eyes! Don't give me propaganda BS.

How can this conversation switch around... I am simply explaining that they hate Americans! Or that a lot of them do... not the innocent people who don't know better... however that doesn't help out people going in there to help. I don't expect to get a sympathy letter, I KNOW they can't read or write... you are not teaching me anything new so please don't assume what I do and don't know. I am just saying although it is horrible this is obviously not the best way to help them... education is. They have to be able to help themselves (you can give a man a fish...) and I am not going crazy over it... I know how lucky I am, I am happy about that however although I feel bad for their way of life Africa is NOT MY first priority in life... sorry.

And although you "don't mean" it... you are actually minimizing what we've gone through here- but I don't take that personal either because I'm SURE you have no clue.

Britishvixen21
July 6th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Nymph,

Its not that I dont see africans as a lesser human need, my point is this, before im going to think about a African Child dying, im going to think of one of the 4779 Toronto Children that stayed in a shelter last year to keep from freezing to death in the winter, and the countless others that couldnt get into the shelters because they were full. Or about the war veteran so cold in the winter because he cant afford heat, so cold in fact that he dies.
We need to look at the S**T on our downstep before cleaning up our neighbours

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 02:00 PM
I would also like to add that regardless of this all I do not dislike any of these people as wholes. I am just speaking about extremists or groups.

Writing4Fun
July 6th, 2005, 02:07 PM
We all need to choose our battles. We all have to fight for what we believe in. We can't fight for every cause, there just isn't enough time (or money) in a day. BUT, I'd like everyone to remember this thread the next time someone says they won't fight BSL (or whatever else you think is important) because it doesn't affect them. They're not being ignorant - they are simply choosing what they want to fight for. ;)

For the sake of arguement, though, let's talk about those 4779 children. Wow, almost 5000 children found food and shelter, and that's the worst we've got? Not to diminish their plight, but let's all try to wrap our brains around 50,000 people dying each week, most from completely preventable causes. Whose pile of s**t is bigger? While I clean up the steaming bit in my own backyard, shouldn't I also be concerned about the massive dung pile on my neighbor's lawn? 'Cause it's starting to stink up the whole neighborhood...

nymph
July 6th, 2005, 02:09 PM
angleeyes: I need to retract that fake CNN footage comment. Did a search online and according to snopes.com, it was simply a false rumor. Sorry I misled you. If anyone's interested, here is more details: http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

I do not however appreciate your tone of voice, and I certainly would not tolerate wordings like "propaganda BS". You owe me an apology.

It's OK if you don't feel that millions of starving and dying Africans are on the top of your priorities, but perhaps other people do care, and I think at the very least Live8 has sent a clear message to the leaders of the wealthiest nations that THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO CARE.

Britishvixen21
July 6th, 2005, 02:12 PM
How about looking at it this way, would you be foolish enough to keep pickign up your nieghbours ***** if after everytime you cleaned it up it kept re appearing and your nieghbour did nothing to help it not get there. Im sure your not going to be a fool forever.

Writing4Fun
July 6th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Ah, but if my neighbor grew up living in s**t, generations of s**t-dwellers, so to speak, never knew that there was life without s**t, then how could I fault them? How could I leave them there to die amongst the s**t? Shouldn't I keep trying to educate them, show them that they can live a better life, no matter how long it takes? What if it's the parents who are keeping their children in filth? Never allowing them to get clean? Wouldn't it be my responsibility, as a fellow human being, to help remove those children from filthy conditions?

Think of it this way - the woman who grew up with abusive parents marries an abusive man, spends the rest of her life being abused, as do her children. Is she the one at fault because she doesn't get out of the bad relationship, or is she another victim? Should I turn my back on her, or try to help her realize that she can have a better life, does deserve happiness? It's all she knows, so she thinks this is the way life's supposed to be. Can I just ignore her, thinking this is her choice, she's not willing to help herself?

Very interesting debate here, folks! :)

jjgeonerd
July 6th, 2005, 02:27 PM
A good book that explains the host of reasons for poverty in various parts of the world (Rwanda, Congo, Haiti, etc.) and the associated consequences is "Collapse" by Jared Diamond. It tracks the rise and fall of societies from the Vikings to present day, and gives reasons for each.

It is often hard for people living in 1st world countries to understand why 3rd world countries are how they are, why 1st world countries are how we are, what can be done to help, or should we help. It will definently make everyone who reads it look at things a little differently...and be glad we were lucky enough to be born or live in in the countries we were/do.

BTW...I don't pretend to know the answers...just think that understanding is important. :)

I don't know what Live 8's exact purpose was so I have no opinion on that topic.

Britishvixen21
July 6th, 2005, 02:31 PM
"Very interesting debate here, folks! "

It sure is, I like to hear other peoples opinions, and I am very suprised at how many agree with my view,

It is a very interesting debate, and very smelly with all that poop!! does anyone have a baggy? :party:

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 02:33 PM
angleeyes: I need to retract that fake CNN footage comment. Did a search online and according to snopes.com, it was simply a false rumor. Sorry I misled you. If anyone's interested, here is more details: http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

I do not however appreciate your tone of voice, and I certainly would not tolerate wordings like "propaganda BS". You owe me an apology.

It's OK if you don't feel that millions of starving and dying Africans are on the top of your priorities, but perhaps other people do care, and I think at the very least Live8 has sent a clear message to the leaders of the wealthiest nations that THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO CARE.

My tone of voice is appropriate considering that I know you were not telling truthful information to try and make me look like an idiot. I do thank you for being honest and retracting your comment. However, I do not apologize nor do I owe you an apology after you spoke that way about such a devastating topic in my country, nor did I ever say I didn't care... and it is fine to me if people care, like I said I just didn't watch Live 8 but I wouldn't try to stop it, I don't oppose I just feel it's gone about in a wrong way- like many other controversial issues.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 02:45 PM
Think of it this way - the woman who grew up with abusive parents marries an abusive man, spends the rest of her life being abused, as do her children. Is she the one at fault because she doesn't get out of the bad relationship, or is she another victim? Should I turn my back on her, or try to help her realize that she can have a better life, does deserve happiness? It's all she knows, so she thinks this is the way life's supposed to be. Can I just ignore her, thinking this is her choice, she's not willing to help herself?


You are very right and I agree, but if her husband will try to kill you and is feeding her mind with other things trying to keep her down than what do you try next? Do you risk your own well being for her?

Prin
July 6th, 2005, 02:48 PM
Are you guys joking? I mean really? Poverty in Africa means no meds, no food, no clean water. NOTHING in North America compares. In Canada, no matter how poor you are, you still can go get medical attention and you still have access to water. Clean water. Unbelievable.

And the US helping hasn't brought down AIDS numbers--- YOU know WHY??? George Bush has eliminated the distribution of condoms at ALL the american clinics. THAT'S WHY!!

Go to Africa. They'll tell you that AIDS is not a real disease. It's a method that the white people use to scare the Africans into not having children. Why should they think otherwise? They can't pay for an education.

And AIDS research? We're doing research on the type B strain of HIV. The weakest, least virulent, slowest spreading HIV out there. If you have unprotected sex with someone with HIV-B, you have an incredibly slim chance of getting the virus. If you have unprotected sex with someone in Africa, with the super nuts type C virus, you WILL get it. And it becomes resistant very quickly. But we don't care about that one. It's not common here. To me, if you're going to cure AIDS, you have to go for the hard-core virus first. The rest will be a piece of cake after you've conquered the nasty one.

Did the Africans send card for 9/11? That's utterly preposterous. Do you know how many people die in Africa EVERY DAY? 9/11 is insignificant in comparison. Like a drop of water in the ocean. How are they supposed to feel for the Americans when their moms are dying of aids? Their dads are dying of aids? They are BORN with aids? They have NO FOOD? No water? Are you kidding? Are you joking? Have you EVER left the country?

Poverty in Canada usually means $30 000 or less a year. People in the world are making PENNIES a MONTH. Are you joking?

Seriously, if you think you have it bad, save your money and GO SEE. Don't sit here and whine and moan if you haven't a clue what is going on. If you don't believe CNN, GO SEE for YOURSELF.

The main goal they want to achieve is getting rid of the debts that Africans owe to Western countries. They pay so much interest a year that there is no way for them to turn a profit or even make ends meet. Erase the debt. It's not really giving money to corrupt governments, because they have already spent it long long ago. We have enough money to forgive debts to suffering people who are so much worse off than we are.

If you think being poor in Canada is any comparison with other places in the world, please try to educate yourselves. You are LUCKY to be poor in Canada.

nymph
July 6th, 2005, 02:52 PM
angeleyes: It was an honest mistake and I've already apologized for having misled you. I was however surprised at how you chose to use wordings like "propaganda BS" rather than to provide a link to counter-argue my comment.

I think my question to you was being ignored so I'm going to ask you again this:


angeleyes: Wouldn't you agree that even that the billions of dollars would only help one person, one child from starving to death, for that one person it would mean the whole world? What if that one person is your loved one?

I always remember a scene from Schindler's List, towards the end when Oscar was getting ready to fleed the country, all these holocaust survivors gathered together and handed Oscar a ring, which engraved with a quote from the Talmud "Whoever saves one life saves the world entire"

Perhaps if we start to look at dying African people as human beings rather than accounting numbers, we would realize the urgency to help them.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 03:15 PM
angeleyes: It was an honest mistake and I've already apologized for having misled you. I was however surprised at how you chose to use wordings like "propaganda BS" rather than to provide a link to counter-argue my comment.

I think my question to you was being ignored so I'm going to ask you again this:


Of course, you are right about that. I never said I don't want them helped, I am saying that so many horrible things happen everyday and with the corruption I won't stress myself out about it.

Of course I was going to say it's BS, ... I'm working and don't have time to send you links right now. Yet, trust me I know all about the situation and knew that was not true... although some things we were told are untrue. I'm not being rude and getting worked up about it.

It's a shame that it is like this, nobody wants people to die- no matter whose family it is. Although some comments BLUNTLY stating 9/11 is nothing... intelligent, innocent, wonderful people were killed and it's "nothing compared to what goes on in Africa". You know what, don't even compare it- because I wasn't and the person who stated that obviously has NO clue! READ ALL OF THE POSTS BEFORE YOU COMMENT IGNORANTLY! Especially when the issue was already addressed.

I've been to third world countries, and I've seen the poverty. I could never go back it was so depressing, and Africa isn't the only one! I have a lot of opinions on this topic... but I feel it's gone about poorly. Sending 400 billion dollars only to be stolen mostly by the corrupt is ridiculous!! Sorry if you disagree!

Bush believes in abstenence only...which is why he cut the condom programs. He is taking an ABC approach (Abstenence, be faithful, condoms), they plan and funding the programs with condoms again. However, those are his beliefs... doesn't mean I agree with it... am I President Bush? Use all those exclamations on your officials to implement the program, not me... how come the USA always has to be the front-runner?

Britishvixen21
July 6th, 2005, 03:31 PM
"t's a method that the white people use to scare the Africans into not having children."

I just love this the white man yeah were the big horrible nasty white man when there infecting eachother with aids and letting there own wives and kids die because they got horny!! funny how there is now racial conertations when there standing there with there hands out to us for more bloody cash isnt it!

Prin
July 6th, 2005, 03:43 PM
How can this conversation switch around... I am simply explaining that they hate Americans! Or that a lot of them do... not the innocent people who don't know better... however that doesn't help out people going in there to help. I don't expect to get a sympathy letter, I KNOW they can't read or write... you are not teaching me anything new so please don't assume what I do and don't know. I am just saying although it is horrible this is obviously not the best way to help them... education is. They have to be able to help themselves (you can give a man a fish...)
You're kind of lumping everybody in one category here. Was it the Muslims cheering or the Africans? You can give a man a fish, sure, but if you charge him more a month than his govt makes in a decade, he still won't be better off. And if he fishes in the same pond that he and his entire town wash in, he won't be better off. And if he can't afford the worms? Or the pole? Or the cow or the house or the drugs, etc. How can they help themselves when we take everything we can out of them?
It's a shame that it is like this, nobody wants people to die- no matter whose family it is. Although some comments BLUNTLY stating 9/11 is nothing... intelligent, innocent, wonderful people were killed and it's "nothing compared to what goes on in Africa". So 2000 Americans equals 1 million Africans dying of malaria, and 2 million dying of AIDS this year alone? Sorry but I don't agree. No human life has more value than another, whether it's an African person or the president of the US, their lives are the same. They both have somebody who needs them, somebody how loves them. It's the same. And they're not innocent? They're not intelligent? They're not wonderful? Because it's america, we should feel more sorry? I agree it was a tragedy, but what is going on in Africa is ON-GOING. It hasn't ended yet. It wasn't a one time event.

You know what, don't even compare it- because I wasn't and the person who stated that obviously has NO clue! READ ALL OF THE POSTS BEFORE YOU COMMENT IGNORANTLY! Especially when the issue was already addressed. How is it ignorant to talk about world issues? Seems to me ignorance is about arguing without facts.


Bush believes in abstenence only...which is why he cut the condom programs. He is taking an ABC approach (Abstenence, be faithful, condoms), they plan and funding the programs with condoms again. However, those are his beliefs... doesn't mean I agree with it... am I President Bush? Use all those exclamations on your officials to implement the program, not me... how come the USA always has to be the front-runner?If he's taking the ABC approach, why were the condoms removed. He's only for abstinence, like you said, not for "ABC".

And those exclamations were not directed at you. Did I say "this one's for you"? I was taking the whole thread and summarizing.

And the whole point of the live8 was to show the "officials" how many people feel this is the most important issue in the world right now. If you don't agree, fine, but I don't get it. I don't understand how you can know about something, or pretend to know about something, and tuck it away in a drawer and complain about "more important issues". I don't get it. I guess it goes with whether or not you feel like a global family or an individual.

Prin
July 6th, 2005, 03:47 PM
"t's a method that the white people use to scare the Africans into not having children."

I just love this the white man yeah were the big horrible nasty white man when there infecting eachother with aids and letting there own wives and kids die because they got horny!! funny how there is now racial conertations when there standing there with there hands out to us for more bloody cash isnt it!
It's white people who show up there talking about AIDS. It's not about racism, it's about where the "preachers" of HIV and AIDS come from. The majority of them come from the Western world. Without white people, the Africans wouldn't know about HIV and AIDS, so they feel they are the source of this "disease".

And I don't think they are there with their hands out. Organizations working over there and advocates for human rights are the ones who are trying to get the money across. As far as I know, and maybe someone can correct me, but the isolated Africans, where AIDS is rampant, aren't completely aware of what they are missing.

nymph
July 6th, 2005, 03:55 PM
how come the USA always has to be the front-runner?

Uhh, US is not always the front-runner. It has not yet signed on to Kyoto, it wasn't the first one on sight in Rwanda or Somalia, percentage-wise, US' aid to the Tsunami victims was pitiful compared to what Canadians had contributed. US sticks its nose wherever THEIR interest lies, that's all.

Wasn't it you who brought up the comparison between 911 to the African people?

Prin: I think you've hit the nail on the head, to some people: 1 American = 1 million Africans, give or take a few. :rolleyes:

Britishvixen21
July 6th, 2005, 04:12 PM
The US's contribution to the Tsunami was and should be good enough. Canada bowed down once again to peer pressure and gave way to much. the amount we gave with the state of our economy was bloody ridiculous!

Prin
July 6th, 2005, 04:13 PM
The US's contribution to the Tsunami was and should be good enough. Canada bowed down once again to peer pressure and gave way to much. the amount we gave with the state of our economy was bloody ridiculous!
Good enough for Africa?

Britishvixen21
July 6th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Firstly the tsunami was a natural disaster that could not be helped and even now they are back up and running they helped themselves, the point me and angel are trying to make.

second of all i think 400 billion dollars collectivly is bloody good enough dont you!!!

The victims of tsumani only got 4 billion collectivly and look how they are thriving on it!!

This is a perfect example thanks for bringing it up and letting me prove my point even further.

jjgeonerd
July 6th, 2005, 04:24 PM
Here is one reason why the rich countries should help the poorer ones:

There is a boy living in a small village in Rwanda (although it could be the Sudan, Haiti, Somalia, etc.). He is 13 years old. Neither of his parents work because there are no jobs...literally. Consequently they have no money and therefore cannot buy food. But even if they had some money there isn't a store to buy food from. They grow all their own food, but only on the <1 acre they own. This is nowhere near enough land so they are constantly hungry. Their "house" has no running water or sewage system, and its a 4 hour walk to the nearest "clean" water. There is no such thing as school.

One day a man comes to his village and brings food, water, and money. He is from Saudi Arabia (or Syria, Pakistan, whatever). He explains the reason conditions are so poor is because the Americans (or British, Canadians, etc) won't let the boy have anything. He shows the boy pictures of them in fancy cars and big houses, and then shows pictures of their soldiers standing next to dead people that look like the boy. He doesn't tell him that the picture is 20 years old, or the circumstances behind it, but rather the soldier killed him because he didn't like him and he'd do the same to the boy. The boy and his friends aren't educated and don't know any better, but all of this sounds reasonable. After a few weeks of this they too hate Americans. Then the man offers to take the boy and his friends away so they can kill Americans and help their people. The boy looks around, realizes he has no future, already believes americans are to blame...he agrees to go. The man never bothers to tell the boy his true motives...which are not related to anything he told the boy. A terrorist is born.

First off, if this sounds like I am talking down to anyone I apologize...a story was just the best way I could think to get my point across. :)

This is just one reason why rich coutries need to continue to help the poor, underdeveloped countries until the problem is solved. Situations like this happen continually...if you don't believe so then do some research please. If the boy was educated and the standard of living were better this would not have happened because the boy would have had a future to loook forward to. Contributing money to aid agencies (Peace Corps, etc) and forgiving debt is one way to help. Another way is the G8 govt's need to actively pressure the 3rd world gov'ts to end corruption. The UN and World Bank also need to help. Education and improvement cannot happen without the rich countries involvement. This is a far better solution to future wars and/or genocide. I personally don't mind my tax dollars going to help.

BTW...terrorism isn't the only issue, and I didn't mean to play that card...I'm sick of its use as an excuse for everything as much as the next person. Environmental damage affects all of us (deforestation, over fishing, etc), as does disease and over-population. The problem will only continue to affect us more and more.

My 0.02.

Prin
July 6th, 2005, 04:25 PM
Brisitshvixen--They don't have a severe AIDS epidemic. They have tourism and millions of US dollars pumped into their ecomony too. They have an infrastructure to REbuild, not to build from scratch.

jjgeonerd
July 6th, 2005, 04:30 PM
The victims of tsumani only got 4 billion collectivly and look how they are thriving on it!!

This is a perfect example thanks for bringing it up and letting me prove my point even further.

Africa and the tsunami victims aren't even remotely related in terms of their conditions.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 05:01 PM
[QUOTE]Wasn't it you who brought up the comparison between 911 to the African people?

If you have any intelligence and know how to read you would see that I NEVER compared the two... please read before speaking to me again... I will no longer answer you when you cannot read my posts

Prin: I think you've hit the nail on the head, to some people: 1 American = 1 million Africans, give or take a few.

Never did I say that either... whether it's over 3000 Americans or 1 million Africans or 3000 Africans and 1 million Americans it's still a shame... don't try to down play what has happened in the USA. If it happened to your family you would actually care about it.... again... a comment made looking for a fight- I won't waste my time with this.

If you want to fight with people do it with someone else, don't flip around something that was said to make yourself feel better.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 05:11 PM
If he's taking the ABC approach, why were the condoms removed. He's only for abstinence, like you said, not for "ABC".

Notice condoms is the last step??? I thought you did research!! :rolleyes:

The condoms are going to be implemented lastly... I do not agree with this. I think condoms should always be available especially in countries that do not know better. However, according to survey practically nobody was using them (except soldiers)- I guess they figured it was pointless to spend the money on that service.

nymph
July 6th, 2005, 05:23 PM
I didn't see Africa sending us any sympathy letters when my cousin and many others burned to death in the World Trade Center.

Until you act in a mature manner, there is really no point in debating with you. :rolleyes:

It was YOU who tried to downplay and flat out ignore the sufferings of the African people; it was YOU who said that Americans are more important; and it was YOU who started the fight by using words like "propaganda BS".

Where I was brought up, we don't use words like "BS", even in the abbreviated form; we don't think other races as being inferior to us that their lives are less worthy than ours; we also don't believe that bullying is the answer to every problem.

I wish you (not you personally but all those who think only Americans matter) could simply step out of your selfish shell and take a look at the rest of the world!

Writing4Fun
July 6th, 2005, 05:28 PM
Angeleyes, I'm really sorry for your loss, and for the losses of countless others whose loved ones were victims of that attack. No one said they don't care about 9/11. It was a very tragic event. They're just saying it's not the same situation, and so can't be compared.

To everyone: could we please not resort to insults and unfair generalizations? This is a very healthy debate, and I, for one, would hate to see it locked.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 05:32 PM
Me act in a mature manner? I will not deal with, read or respond to any of your posts. You took things I said and twisted them, took small excerpts and try to pawn them off as something they are not. READ THE REST OF MY POSTS OR DO NOT RESPOND TO ME. And yes, when someone is going to speak of the fact that my cousin burned to death and we only found his TORSO like it's nothing.. then yes I may use terms like BS and get offended. Never was it compared... I was simply stating that many Africans are known for hating Americans (which it obviously seems like you do too) although we try to help, don't judge us by a few of the officials of our country please... you do nothing but hurt yourself.

I never said "them dying is no big deal"... yet you have basically said that to me. I'm done having you twist what I am saying... I agree with BritishVixen- that's all- I don't hate any race or think of anyone as lower than me... how do you know what nationality background I am after all??? lol... seriously, you are the one that needs to mature. Please don't bother responding to me... again I will be the mature one and stop responding to your twisted posts.

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 05:35 PM
Angeleyes, I'm really sorry for your loss, and for the losses of countless others whose loved ones were victims of that attack. No one said they don't care about 9/11. It was a very tragic event. They're just saying it's not the same situation, and so can't be compared.

To everyone: could we please not resort to insults and unfair generalizations? This is a very healthy debate, and I, for one, would hate to see it locked.

Thank you, and you never said anything rude. Sometimes thing can be taken out of context... I quickly explained myself but people would rather fight than understand. I am no longer answering the posts submitted by these people on this thread.
:thumbs up

nymph
July 6th, 2005, 05:47 PM
The more I read your sympathy letter comment, the more I find it amusing. Seriously, listen to yourself!

I came from a 3rd world country, my little cousin died from accidentally falling off a tractor that was used to transport school children. There was no nice safety features like the seatbelt or airbags or even the seats on that tractor! I visited their village when I was 8 years old, do you know what their main diet was? Potatos, boiled potatos, no butter, no gravy, just plein potatos, 2 meals per day only. You've been to Africa eh? When did you go and which country did you go to? Were you visiting the tourist attractions or did you actually visit the locals living quarters?

Things have gotten a lot better in the last 15, 20 years or so, but there still are people suffering from the lack of basic living conditions like food, shelter and clean water. Are their lives not precious enough to deserve some help from the world's wealthiest countries? No one discounted the tragedy of 911, but to ask for sympathy letters from poeple who could barely stay alive is utterly insensitive and arrogant don't you think? You know who you remind me of? Marie-Antoinette. :rolleyes:

melanie
July 6th, 2005, 06:47 PM
firstly, when i see a small child starving, with a bloated belly that is jsut so darn painful, when they have no strength in the tiny legs to get up i feel sick..

when i see a woman suffereing awful pain and physical discomfort due to a fissue caused by unassisted childbirth and long labor due to lack of medical assistance, something so simple, a part of me dies inside.

i have everything in my comfy 1st world nation, i have more than excess and far more than i would need to sustain my life, i can not help but share this with my fellow human in so much pain, i want my fellow human to be happy and healthy like me, such a simple pleasure and surely not much to ask. and that is not always available. i would give anything to help a child in such need.

there are many reasons for third world situations, and in africa one of the greatest is environmental problems. drought, inadequately dstributed rains, poor top soil nutritrion, excess evaporation due to limited cloud coverage and the list goes on andd on and on..... living in a very arid country myself i casn relly relate to how their situation was created. its not their fault bud jsut bad luck... we are currently in a violent drought. our weather patterns are changing and we are becoming increasinly dryer. if this continues our crops will eventually run out and we too will have no agriculture. therefore we too would require aid, and if my government was more corrupt than it is now (not possible) they too may squander our money leaving us in a position to beg for food and aid. so therefore it is not the individuals fault, they are just the ones who feel the horror, they are innocents....dont hold them accountable forr their govts actions...and they cant all move you know :D

and lol, you ppl are hilarious-QUOTE
"All I was saying is that MOST of these countries in Africa would cheer for an American tragedy as opposed to help my country if they could"

oh crap, so i thought that it was the iraqies who cause all the probs, well welll welll. i was off the mark, and so was your govt, best ring em and let em know it was actually the africans who did it, not iraq and sadam and his buddies, opps. that was a big boo boo then,,.....

and if you could, would you mind actually naming 4 african nations that you know were involved directly with 911, no please i would love to know. i ahve heard this spouted by other ppl and am still to find an answer. to laugh at such a thing is jsut foul, and i would abore any one individual that did it, but certainly not the entire nation that that person came from..

if we all help each other equally try to be empathetic and understanding it may jsut make a bigger difference than any thing else in this mad world.

oh and i did not watch the live8 concert, onyl the paul mcartney song of course :D (i loooove him) but the rest of the music was crap and i would haver rather poked an eye out than kill of my brain cells listening to it.... blah crap... now thats my 20 cents worth.....

jjgeonerd
July 6th, 2005, 07:02 PM
and if you could, would you mind actually naming 4 african nations that you know were involved directly with 911, no please i would love to know. i ahve heard this spouted by other ppl and am still to find an answer. to laugh at such a thing is jsut foul, and i would abore any one individual that did it, but certainly not the entire nation that that person came from..


No one said any African nation was involved in 9/11...where did you see that?

CyberKitten
July 6th, 2005, 07:13 PM
Live 8 is a good cause but I am cynical about how much good it will actually do. I have spent more yrs of my life working for Les Medecins Sans Frontieres and we never see any of the money and resources alledgedly raised in the name of these countries. It all goes to some black market and maybe 30% ever actually gets to the agencies who are actually doing something.

The only good I see it doing is giving the cause a profile - like a gigantic ad - and it is also that for the so called stars too. Makes them feel like they might actually be doing good. I think some of the mean and they do teach the people who do follow them that we do need to help those less well off than we are.

As for the charity begins at home concept - sorry, I never bought into that. We are all immigrants from somewhere at some time to this country. (My ancestors were Irish, others may be newer and be Ethiopian) so we as a country are better placed to understand how to help other countries. We spend less than 1% of our GDP on foreign aid, not hardly enough given that we are plundering their resources - not to mention their educated young people who they badly need. (I feel guilty when we recruit doctors from there, sighhh!).

Yes, there is poverty here but there is also a social welfare system available to those people. If you are a child born of two parents who just died of AIDS in say the Sudan, you have little chance of survival. We need to help those countries not just to be altruistic but for own sefish economic reasons.

raingirl
July 6th, 2005, 07:31 PM
I don't have a lot to say about this. Having done my degree in Anthropology (thanks jjgeonerd about posting that book-Jared Diamond writes great stuff on this from an anthropological view). I highly suggest you read up on some of the stuff that Jared Diamond has wrote. He did some excellent papers on the downfile of civilization as it relates to our change from being a "hunter/gatherer society" to a "sedentary society". When humans became sedentary, this is when disease started to breed among populations. Humans weren't made to be in one place. That's aside from the point. There are VERY few hunter/gatherer societies left on the planet, some being in Austrailia and South America mostly. When the British (and other European countries) started to set out and sail the world, they ended up basically forcing the african hunter gathers to be sendentary. They told them they could not move around and had to stay put. They basically went in and forced change on an entire continent so they could use the land as they pleased (we are talking 100's of years ago here). What the europeans didn't do is teach the natives this new way of life....at least not well. Then they left...

This is just a generalization of what happened, it's actually more complex than that though. I'm just recalling what we were taught in school.

I don't agree with a lot that is/has been done in africa. I first and most of all don't agree with religious organizations going in and "preaching" to the people. I am not religious, and it absolutely horrifies me to think that some organizations like "Christian Childrens Fund" go in, provide medical care, help build houses, set up wells, etc, but then force these people to learn about god. As if these people have a choice. Go to church or starve?? I think if an organization is going to go in, it should be in the most objective way possible. We should not be imposing our western ways/thoughts on these people. People have been building wells for 1000's of years with little tools, why can't someone teach them a less complex way to do it? Give them disease resistant seeds for drought resistant crops, and let them grow it. Don't give out hand outs, teach them the most simple ways to live. It's not impossible. If needed, I can survive in the wilderness, with proper education on survival, it shouldn't be that hard.

I just think that the money isn't being utilized the best way as it could be, and I think these countries should start taking responsibility for themselves and stop relying on help elsewhere. If we teach them that people will help if they are in need, what's stopping them from slacking off?

Live 8 was not about erasing the debt, it was about getting the G8 to agree to a percentage of their GNP for africa. Other people suggested that erasing the debt would be better. I do agree with that. I think the debt should be erased, and then we should all get out of their business.

On a side note, I would love everyone to read about this culture here. It's really fascinating, and an eye-opener on culture from an Anthropologists view:

Body Ritual Among the Nacirema by Horace Miner





The anthropologist has become so familiar with the diversity of ways in which different peoples behave in similar situations that he is not apt to be surprised by even the most exotic customs. In fact, if all of the logically possible combinations of behavior have not been found somewhere in the world, he is apt to suspect that they must be present in some yet undescribed tribe. This point has, in fact, been expressed with respect to clan organization by Murdock (1949:71). In this light, the magical beliefs and practices of the Nacirema present such unusual aspects that it seems desirable to describe them as an example of the extremes to which human behavior can go.



Professor Linton first brought the ritual of the Nacirema to the attention of anthropologists twenty years ago (1936:326), but the culture of this people is still very poorly understood. They are a North American group living in the territory between the Canadian Cree, the Yaqui and Tarahumare of Mexico, and the Carib and Arawak of the Antilles. Little is known of their origin, although tradition states that they came from the east. According to Nacirema mythology, their nation was originated by a culture hero, Notgnihsaw, who is otherwise known for two great feats of strength -- the throwing of a piece of wampum across the river Pa-To-Mac and the chopping down of a cherry tree in which the Spirit of Truth resided.



Nacirema culture is characterized by a highly developed market economy which has evolved in a rich natural habitat. While much of the people's time is devoted to economic pursuits, a large part of the fruits of these labors and a considerable portion of the day are spent in ritual activity. The focus of this activity is the human body, the appearance and health of which loom as a dominant concern in the ethos of the people. While such a concern is certainly not unusual, its ceremonial aspects and associated philosophy are unique.



The fundamental belief underlying the whole system appears to be that the human body is ugly and that its natural tendency is to debility and disease. Incarcerated in such a body, man's only hope is to avert these characteristics through the use of the powerful influences of ritual and ceremony. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this purpose. The more powerful individuals in the society have several shrines in their houses and, in fact, the opulence of a house is often referred to in terms of the number of such ritual centers it possesses. Most houses are of wattle and daub construction, but the shrine rooms of the more wealthy are walled with stone. Poorer families imitate the rich by applying pottery plaques to their shrine walls.



While each family has at least one such shrine, the rituals associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally only discussed with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries. I was able, however, to establish sufficient rapport with the natives to examine these shrines and to have the rituals described to me.



The local point of the shrine is a box or chest which is built into the wall. In this chest are kept the many charms and magical potions without which no native believes he could live. These preparations are secured from a variety of specialized practitioners. The most powerful of these are the medicine men, whose assistance must be rewarded with substantial gifts. However, the medicine men do not provide the curative potions for their clients. but decide what the ingredients should be and then write them down in an ancient and secret language. This writing is understood only by the medicine men and by the herbalists who, for another gift, provide the required charm.



The charm is not disposed of after it has served its purpose, but is placed in the charm-box of the house hold shrine. As these magical materials are specific for certain ills, and the real or imagined maladies of the people are many, the charm-box is usually full to overflowing. The magical packets are so numerous that people forget what their purposes were and fear to use them again. While the natives are very vague on this point, we can only assume that the idea in retaining all the old magical materials is that their presence in the charm-box, before which the body rituals are conducted, will in some way protect the worshipper.



Beneath the charm-box is a small font. Each day every member of the family, in succession, enters the shrine room, bows his head before the charm-box, mingles different sorts of holy water in the font, and proceeds with a brief rite of ablution. The holy waters are secured from the Water Temple of the community, where the priests conduct elaborate ceremonies to make the liquid ritually pure.



In the hierarchy of magical practitioners, and below the medicine men in prestige, are specialists whose designation is best translated "holy-mouth-men." The Nacirema have an almost pathological horror of and fascination with the mouth, the condition of which is believed to have a supernatural influence on all social relationships. Were it not for the rituals the mouth, they believe that their teeth would fall out, their gums bleed, their jaws shrink, their friends desert them, and their lovers reject them. They also believe that a strong relationship exists between oral and moral characteristics. For example, there is a ritual ablution of the mouth for children which is supposed to improve their moral fiber.



The daily body ritual performed by everyone includes a mouth-rite. Despite the fact that these people are so punctilious about care of the mouth, this rite involves a practice which strikes the uninitiated stranger as revolting. It was reported to me that the ritual consists of inserting a small bundle of hog hairs into the mouth, along with certain magical powders, and then moving the bundle in a highly formalized series of gestures.



In addition to the private mouth-rite, the people seek out a holy-mouth-man once or twice a year. These practitioners have an impressive set of paraphernalia, consisting of a variety of augers, awls, probes, and prods. The use of these objects in the exorcism of the evils of the mouth involves almost unbelievable ritual torture of the client. The holy-mouth-man opens the client's mouth and, using the above mentioned tools, enlarges any holes which decay may have created in the teeth. Magical materials are put into these holes. If there are no naturally occurring holes in the teeth, large sections of one or more teeth are gouged out so that the supernatural substance can be applied. In the client's view, the purpose of these ministrations is to arrest decay and to draw friends. The extremely sacred and traditional character of the rite is evident in the fact that the natives return to the holy-mouth-men year after year, despite the fact that their teeth continue to decay.



It is to be hoped that, when a thorough study of the Nacirema is made, there will be careful inquiry into the personality structure of these people. One has but to watch the gleam in the eye of a holy-mouth-man, as he jabs an awl into an exposed nerve, to suspect that a certain amount of sadism is involved. If this can be established, a very interesting pattern emerges, for most of the population shows definite masochistic tendencies. It was to these that Professor Linton referred in discussing a distinctive part of the daily body ritual which is performed only by men. This part of the rite involved scraping and lacerating the surface of the face with a sharp instrument. Special women's rites are performed only four times during each lunar month, but what they lack in frequency is made up in barbarity. As part of this ceremony, women bake their heads in small ovens for about an hour. The theoretically interesting point is that what seems to be a preponderantly masochistic people have developed sadistic specialists.



The medicine men have an imposing temple, or latipso, in every community of any size. The more elaborate ceremonies required to treat very sick patients can only be performed at this temple. These ceremonies involve not only the thaumaturge but a permanent group of vestal maidens who move sedately about the temple chambers in distinctive costume and headdress.



The latipso ceremonies are so harsh that it is phenomenal that a fair proportion of the really sick natives who enter the temple ever recover. Small children whose indoctrination is still incomplete have been known to resist attempts to take them to the temple because "that is where you go to die." Despite this fact, sick adults are not only willing but eager to undergo the protracted ritual purification, if they can afford to do so. No matter how ill the supplicant or how grave the emergency, the guardians of many temples will not admit a client if he cannot give a rich gift to the custodian. Even after one has gained admission and survived the ceremonies, the guardians will not permit the neophyte to leave until he makes still another gift.



The supplicant entering the temple is first stripped of all his or her clothes. In every-day life the Nacirema avoids exposure of his body and its natural functions. Bathing and excretory acts are performed only in the

secrecy of the household shrine, where they are ritualized as part of the body-rites. Psychological shock results from the fact that body secrecy is suddenly lost upon entry into the latipso. A man, whose own wife has never seen him in an excretory act, suddenly finds himself naked and assisted by a vestal maiden while he performs his natural functions into a sacred vessel. This sort of ceremonial treatment is necessitated by the fact that the excreta are used by a diviner to ascertain the course and nature of the client's sickness. Female clients, on the other hand, find their naked bodies are subjected to the scrutiny, manipulation and prodding of the medicine men.



Few supplicants in the temple are well enough to do anything but lie on their hard beds. The daily ceremonies, like the rites of the holy-mouth-men, involve discomfort and torture. With ritual precision, the vestals awaken their miserable charges each dawn and roll them about on their beds of pain while performing ablutions, in the formal movements of which the maidens are highly trained. At other times they insert magic wands in the supplicant's mouth or force him to eat substances which are supposed to be healing. From time to time the medicine men come to their clients and jab magically treated needles into their flesh. The fact that these temple ceremonies may not cure and may even kill the neophyte, in no way decreases the people's faith in the medicine men.



There remains one other kind of practitioner, known as a "listener." This witch-doctor has the power to exorcise the devils that lodge in the heads of people who have been bewitched. The Nacirema believe that parents bewitch their own children. Mothers are particularly suspected of putting a curse on children while teaching them the secret body rituals. The counter-magic of the witch-doctor is unusual in its lack of ritual. The patient simply tells the "listener" all his troubles and fears, beginning with the earliest difficulties he can remember. The memory displayed by the Nacirema in these exorcism sessions is truly remarkable. It is not uncommon for the patient to bemoan the rejection he felt upon being weaned as a babe, and a few individuals even see their troubles going back to the traumatic effects of their own birth.



In conclusion, mention must be made of certain practices which have their base in native esthetics but which depend upon the pervasive aversion to the natural body and its functions. There are ritual fasts to make fat people thin and ceremonial feasts to make thin people fat. Still other rites are used to make women's breasts larger I they are small, and smaller if they are large. General dissatisfaction with breast shape is symbolized in the fact that the ideal form is virtually outside the range of human variation. A few women afflicted with almost inhuman hypermammary development are so idolized that they make a handsome living by simply going from village to village and permitting the natives to stare at them for a fee.



Reference has already been made to the fact that excretory functions are ritualized, routinized, and relegated to secrecy. Natural reproductive functions are similarly distorted. Intercourse is taboo as a topic and scheduled as an act. Efforts are made to avoid pregnancy by the use of magical materials or by limiting intercourse to certain phases of the moon. Conception is actually very infrequent. When pregnant, women dress so as to hide their condition. Parturition takes place in secret, with out friends or relatives to assist and the majority of women do not nurse their infants.



Our review of the ritual life of the Nacirema has certainly shown them to be a magic-ridden people. It is hard to understand how they have managed to exist so long under the burdens which they have imposed upon themselves. But even such exotic customs as these take on real meaning when they are viewed with the insight provided by Malinowski when he wrote (1948:70):



Looking from far and above, from our high places of safety in the developed civilization, it is easy to see all the crudity and irrelevance of magic. But without its power and guidance early man could not have mastered his practical difficulties as he has done, nor could man have advanced to the higher stages of civilization.





References Cited



LINTON, RALPH, 1936 The Study of Man. New York, D. Appleton-Century Co.

MALINOWSKI, BRONISLAW, 1948 Magic, Science, and Religion. Glencoe. The Free Press.

MURDOCK, GEORGE P., 1949 Social Structure. New York. The Macmillan Co.

babyrocky1
July 6th, 2005, 08:03 PM
HMM, Im not sure exactly what I feel about live 8, I know I didn't take time from thinking about BSL to view much of it. I sometimes feel guilty about the whole thing. Our dogs are so important to us and the injustice of whats happening in Ontario is so delberate, BUT we love our dogs so are we fighting the "good fight" ? I sometimes feel selfish about it, it would be nice to be able to spend the time that we spend fighting corruption in our own government to actually have a bit of time and emotional energy to do something more alltruistic!sp I think that whenever people band together to do good work for someone else it can only be positive! Live 8 has engaged the youth in politics and hopefully gives them a sence of empowerment.They are the people who must change the world after all. I dont think that we can choose one cause over another, other than individualy, they are all good and worthy causes People generally support whatever cause is the one that touches them personally and most deeply. I thought that with the first Live Aid concerts, impoverished children in the home countries of the concerts were also given aid. Angel Eyes I am very sorry to hear about your cousin. :sad: :grouphug:

Angeleyes1437
July 6th, 2005, 08:08 PM
HMM, Im not sure exactly what I feel about live 8, I know I didn't take time from thinking about BSL to view much of it. I sometimes feel guilty about the whole thing. Our dogs are so important to us and the injustice of whats happening in Ontario is so delberate, BUT we love our dogs so are we fighting the "good fight" ? I sometimes feel selfish about it, it would be nice to be able to spend the time that we spend fighting corruption in our own government to actually have a bit of time and emotional energy to do something more allturistic!sp I think that whenever people band together to do good work for someone else it can only be positive! Live 8 has engaged the youth in politics and hopefully gives them a sence of empowerment.They are the people who must change the world after all. I dont think that we can choose one cause over another, other than individualy, they are all good and worthy causes People generally support whatever cause is the one that touches them personally and most deeply. I thought that with the first Live Aid concerts, impoverished children in the home countries of the concerts were also given aid. Angel Eyes I am very sorry to hear about your cousin. :sad: :grouphug:

I agree with you and thank you. It's funny, I typed something briefly as a reference and it became twisted into a whole issue. I don't think this was the proper thread to talk about it in, but some people are insensitive. I do believe that people concentrate on the causes that they feel are more important to them... and that was my point. Not that I don't want people to help the Africans. It's funny how people come on and don't read all of peoples posts and start a fight with someone on account of something they never said, lol.

However, I too concentrate on BSL... that is my major cause right now- it's hard to worry about every cause. People can tend to be corrupt while animals aren't- I like helping them :)

melanie
July 7th, 2005, 06:06 PM
the comments put forth by another person regarding africa and their relationship to the 911 tradgedy cannot be found and looks like they have been deleted by their owner....

but basicaly comments linked the two entities

Prin
July 7th, 2005, 06:13 PM
There's still a little in this one:
I wouldn't try to stop something as the LIVE 8 Concert, I actually avoided watching it as well... personally, I'm not interested in it. I didn't see Africa sending us any sympathy letters when my cousin and many others burned to death in the World Trade Center. However, ... I don't hold it against them that they are in poverty- there is tragedy everywhere. I just won't go out of my way to support something like that...not because I think it is wrong per say, but I worry about other things more important to me personally- I can't worry about every cause in the world. I think British Vixen is right though, when is enough- enough? How much more can the world do?

We're not supposed to help them with their disease and lack of food and water because they didn't watch the news on their 59" televisions and scrounge up a pen and paper and a means of sending mail to send a sympathy card...

jjgeonerd
July 7th, 2005, 06:32 PM
the comments put forth by another person regarding africa and their relationship to the 911 tradgedy cannot be found and looks like they have been deleted by their owner....

but basicaly comments linked the two entities

Well...since I am the only one who has an "edited by" tag beneath my posts (Babyrock does too...but her post is unrelated) I suspect your talking about my post regarding terrorism and poverty in Africa. My edits were typos only BTW...as usual. :o

For the record I never said any African nation had anything to do with it...everyone knows it was mainly Saudis. I just gave an example of how severely impoverished and uneducated people can and have been brainwashed into committing acts of terror. Nairobi, Dar Es Salaam, and Somalia, are good examples of this.

My point was to list another reason how 3rd world poverty can and will affect 1st world countries, and how helping them does help us in the long run. Your environmental and humanitarian reasons are also good as I said earlier...just that not everyone believes that or considers it a priority...as some posts in this thread show. Terrorism seems to be the hot button item these days.

melanie
July 7th, 2005, 06:39 PM
boy what is this, global cranky pants week??? man every one is jsut OTT big time (OTT -over the top) :rolleyes: .

my comments were not directed at anyoen or whatever about deleted crap, gosh i said i oculd not find em so i thougth they had been deleted, i didnt even know who said it for goodness sake.

perhaps i didnt get your comment, and i jsut checked your posts and it was not your comment that sparked my reply... the one that did spark it i read it in terms of a relationship between 911 and africa being involved, also some ppl showing pelasure at the tradgedy, so perhaps i was of the mark, i odubt it. anyway it isnt there i cnat find it, and it want yorus. now everyone take off your cranky pants, sheesh :rolleyes:

Prin
July 7th, 2005, 06:40 PM
LOL. Melanie, you're funny. :)

jjgeonerd
July 7th, 2005, 06:49 PM
Sorry...didn't mean to sound cranky...I'm not. :) I just thought what I said was misunderstood. :o

babyrocky1
July 7th, 2005, 07:31 PM
Actually I thought your post about the little boy was really well thought out and made excellent points without being demeaning to anyone elses opinions. It illustrates how we are all connected and how we all need to understand each other to live a more peaceful existence globally. Even though we might strongly disagree on solutions we all look at problems through the eyes of our own experiences. No one here wants to see people suffer, so could we please give one another a break. Global Cranky pants week INDEED ! Mel you always have the Wildest and weirdest way of putting things LOL!

doggy lover
July 8th, 2005, 09:33 AM
I have a friend from Africa and she has told me about things that go on in that country that make me very sad. From the hunger and starvation to losing her father when he was put in prision for speaking out, never to be seen again. I also have a friend from Shri Lanka and she has told me about the inner wars there, about the soulders, the government and way life has changed there. it seems like they have to get their own countries on track before you can help them out, or I guess we could send Bush in. I'm glad I live in Canada.

Writing4Fun
July 8th, 2005, 09:49 AM
I'm glad I live in Canada.
Amen, friend! :thumbs up

nymph
July 8th, 2005, 12:08 PM
"The leaders were expected to pledge to double assistance by 2012 to reduce poverty and fight disease in Africa, the world's poorest continent.

That meets a key Blair objective, though the pledge doesn't mention the British leader's hope of increasing aid from the current $25-billion (U.S.) to $50-billion. Also left out of the pledge of support for Africa will be Mr. Blair's other goal of getting all summit countries to commit to raising foreign aid to an amount equivalent to 0.7 per cent of each country's economy by 2015.

The United States, which is now giving an amount equal to 0.16 per cent of its economy, objected to the setting a numerical target.

Even less progress was made on Mr. Blair's other summit goal -- getting the United States on board with the other countries to make major reductions in emissions of the gases that some have blamed for global warming.

According to a draft communiqué on climate change obtained by the Associated Press on Friday, the United States, the only G8 country that has not ratified the 1997 Kyoto Protocol on global warming, was successful in rejecting Mr. Blair's call for setting specific targets and a timetable for reducing greenhouse emissions."

complete story found here: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050708.wsummit0708/BNStory/International/

Prin
July 8th, 2005, 01:11 PM
Ahh, Bush. :rolleyes:

Angeleyes1437
July 8th, 2005, 01:16 PM
Thanks guys! :(

LOL... I can only speak for myself...