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Are you sure your dog is a Pit bull???

JenSteele
July 1st, 2005, 12:05 PM
Now that Lily's trial is over (see savinglily.com) I'm still getting emails from people that think Lily is a pit or pit mix or part pit. One guy in a New Jersey Pet thread said we're liars and a person in dogster posted that Lily looks part pit. Appearances don't mean you're correct about the breed in a mixed dog. You cannot simply look at a mixed breed dog and best guess it as a pit bull. To clarify before I go on, Lily is and always was a lab/boxer cross.

I posted this in dogster.com and I'm going to say it again here as an appeal to all owners who own mixed breeds to stop calling their dogs pit bulls if they're not 100% sure who the parents are. A pit bull is not a mix of a lab, or a boxer, or a mastiff, or ridgeback or poodle, or anything like that because a pit bull is not a mixed breed. Now some smarter people (But not if you live in Ontario) are calling their dogs pit bull mixes. Unless you know and have seen the parent pit bull to make your dog a pit bull mix, do not call your dog a pit bull. When you do this, you put up all mixes of dogs as possible candidates for BSL.

Here's what I posted in dogster...

"Thanks everyone so much for your support. Just to clarify Lily is a Boxer/Lab mix not a pit bull. We did not say we didn't know who the parents are, we said that we couldn't locate the parents at the time. Like I was saying in the other thread... If I could wish for anything beyond the end of BSL, it would be that people stop calling mixed breeds pit bulls and people would have an expert check their dogs closely for proper breed identification. There's a great deal of confusion about what a pit bull looks like circulating largely by dog owners themselves and it's because of that confusion that BSL in canada is written that the dog just has to appear to have a mix of pit bull and not have to be a purebred pit bull at all. 1000s of mixed dogs are being pointed at and irresponsibly called pit bulls by 1000s of people not trained to indentify mixed breeds. We did a 4 page spreadsheet comparison to the commonalities of breeding any of the pit bull dogs listed giving ample opportunity for anyone to prove our dog has any pit in her. They couldn't. Please pass on to other mixed breed owners before they call their dog a pit bull to make darn sure that it actually is and 1/2 the battle is won. :)"

For 107 years the UKC has been defining what a pit bull is and because it's been going on for 107 years the only thing that creates a pit bull, according to the first body in North America to recognize the breed 107 years ago, is the mating of a purebred American Pit Bull Terrier with another purebred American Pit Bull Terrier. You are doing an injustice to mixed breed owners if you aren't sure about your dog's bloodline and call it a pit bull anyway. PLEASE DO YOUR HOMEWORK and take your dog to a kennel club judge and other authorties with lots and lots of experience before you, yourself call your dog a pit bull.

Part of being a responsible owner is understanding that what you do will effect the next dog. PLEASE stop fueling BSL with any more confusion over what a pit bull actually is.

Thanks!!!
Jen

Schwinn
July 1st, 2005, 12:15 PM
Don't you just love the idiots who think they know more than the experts. I often ask these tools, "And you know more than the experts who decided because..."

Anyway, I think that is good advice. I do think, however, part of the problem is that some people feel it is running away from the injustice of the BSL to call your dog anything but even if you don't know the parentage, but are positive what your dog is. I'm not arguing, as I've had this internal struggle with Daisy. She definitely exhibits the blocky head, the pitbull "stance", and the big-mouth grin. And she has a ridge on her skull which I'm told is a big indicator. That being said, though the vets have said they believe she is part pit, they always mark her down as Rottweiler cross.

JenSteele
July 1st, 2005, 12:38 PM
Yep I get what your saying. I don't think it's running from the issue. See I think and I have proof to some of it, that the reason a lot of this started in the first place is other mixed breed dogs being mistaken for pit bulls doing the things that made people say "BAN IT" in the first place. If mixed breed people would stop insisting their dog is a pit bull when they don't really know, the confusion part starts to disappear. We discovered in 97% of the stories that were presented to the OLA in 1996 were unverfied meaning the dogs breed was never double checked beyond the person who was attacked or maybe one animal control person.

The large mouth grin when they pant btw is also dominant in Chesapeke Bay Retriever and Shorthaired Ridgeback and a few other Retriever class dogs, and lets face it the Retriever class of dogs are one of the most popular crosses in Canada, and as such a breed that is most likely to "get around" ;) we're going to have a high population of mixes that look like pit bulls just from their grin and that little grin that can actually be from 30plus different breeds of dogs is causing people to point and say Pit bull, much the same way you just said your dog has that pit bull wide grin. It's a generality that is being pointed out by dog owners when they should do their homework on all the other breeds that have similar "pit bull" qualities.

I really think people need to stop trusting the guy on the corner or the shelter where they got their dogs and really need to make every endevour to have quite a few people analyze the breed of their dog. There are commonality traits that have nothing to do with wide grins, wide heads or stalky forquarters that can be used to idenifty if a dog actually has pit bull in it - possibly - and it's because there's so much uncertainty if people aren't careful they're going to be lined up right behind Lily.

I'd also add that they're already thinking about adding lab mix with unknown as a pitbull dog type to Bill 132. That's what calling a dog a pit bull and pit bull mix can do when you're really not sure what your dog is.

In my not so humble opinion :)
Jen

Cactus Flower
July 1st, 2005, 01:53 PM
Do you have a picture of this dog? I'm curious.

JenSteele
July 1st, 2005, 02:04 PM
Of Lily? All over savinglily.com :)

Akeeter
July 7th, 2005, 03:26 PM
I knew that if Lily could be 'busted' as a Pitty, that no short haired stocky dog in Ontario was safe from accusations of being a Pitty. (Not that there is anything wrong with being a Pit Bull in the 1st place. :love: )

As I understand it Kitch. /Wat. region has also seized a 13 year old Boxer crossbred & a 3 month old hound puppy from the same home & accused them of both being Pittys. Any idea of how this case is going?

The whole KW by-law was based on B.S. to start with. A bunch of kids walking leashed unspecified breed dogs & 'hurrying along' some older folks on the sidewalks downtown. It was B.S. from beginning to end. These politicians seem to have become transfixed with their own agenda. :evil:

I hope next election that KW voters will vote with their conscience, & their intellect, instead of whatever :rolleyes: they are voting with now.

JenSteele
July 7th, 2005, 09:59 PM
I haven't heard of that.. can you let me know where you got the info from.. I'd like to contact the owner..

Thanks
Jen

Akeeter
July 7th, 2005, 11:10 PM
:sorry: I got this story mixed up with another KW story.

************************************************** ********



Help save Zeus from Guysborough District

| | | Inbox


This is another horror story. Warden Lloyd Hines of Guysborough District in Nova Scotia is, in my opinion, a petty bureaucrat exercising vindictiveness because the Cameron family has gone outside of Guysborough for help to save their dog. Please FAX or write Hines and the other members of the Guysborough District Council and write letters to the editor of the Guysborough Journal to help save Zeus, and donate anything you can to the Save Zeus fund. Please crosspost, and thanks.

================================================

As some may recall,the Cameron family adopted a dog of unknown origins 8 year ago.His name is Zeus.

8 years ago, Zeus had an altercation with a poodle . No charges were laid against Zeus or his owner according to the RCMP.Witnesses to the incident stated that the poodle was often used as "bait" by his owner, according to Mrs Cameron.Needless to say,Mrs Cameron felt her son did not take proper care of Zeus,so she took him home after checking with the RCMP.

For all these years,Zeus has lived without incident in Guysborough County.

In 1995,this county banned am staffs,staffie bulls,apbt,bull dogs.They failed to grandfather in any dogs.They failed to notify residents of the ban.There was little if any public input.

In 2004 they again revised the regulations to include the rottweiler but did grandfather in the rotties living there.It was deemed a proactive safety measure.

There has been no evidence of any of the breeds actually being responsible for any bites to humans in this community provided upon formal request by our council,the DLCC..

The Cameron's not knowing they even had to register a dog, called animal control over problems the neighbourhood was having with roaming dog.When ACO's came out they were told by the roaming dogs owner,that the Cameron family had a "pit bull".

This is when their nightmare started.

Zeus,a 13 yr old male dog of unknown origin was labelled a "pit bull' and the town council planned on issuing a warrant for his life.Warden Hines refused to grandfather in any dogs stating in council that reasons to the regulations was impossible.However if one reviews town council meetings they will find that revisions have been made recently to their environmental bylaws to allow for a plastics plant to be set in their community.


Meanwhile,the ACO attempted to seize the Cameron 8 month old lab hound mix as the"pit bull". Animal Control Officer

Mark Gosbee

mgosbee@municipality.guysborough.ns.ca





Today,Mr and Mrs Cameron were summoned to court.The Cameron's (Willard is recovering from cancer of the throat) were charged with harbouring a "dangerous and vicious dog" and to their horror,a second charge included their other puppy the lab hound mix .The charge was that this dog too was a "pit bull".

Right now,this family relies on the meagre earnings of Marilyn,a cleaner by trade.She has taken all of her vacation time to fight this battle and save her dogs.They need our help.

Please write to Mr Hines and beg that he show some mercy for Zeus and Sandy.

Warden Lloyd Hines

Municipality of the District of Guysborough

P. O. Box 79

Guysborough, NS B0H 1N0

Phone: 902-533-3705

Fax: 902-533-2749



lhines@municipality.guysborough.ns.ca

twodogsandacat
July 8th, 2005, 05:43 PM
The large mouth grin when they pant btw is also dominant in Chesapeke Bay Retriever and Shorthaired Ridgeback and a few other Retriever class dogs, and lets face it the Retriever class of dogs are one of the most popular crosses in Canada, and as such a breed that is most likely to "get around" ;) we're going to have a high population of mixes that look like pit bulls just from their grin and that little grin that can actually be from 30plus different breeds of dogs is causing people to point and say Pit bull, much the same way you just said your dog has that pit bull wide grin. It's a generality that is being pointed out by dog owners when they should do their homework on all the other breeds that have similar "pit bull" qualities.

Our Dob\Ridgeback mix sometimes gets that huge grin when he has been running hard. I do worry about it but I have also noticed that our Pointer if exhausted will also get that look. Still soon as somebody sees that grin on a muscular red dog they say PIT - not lab and not Ridgeback just PIT. Twits.

Of course; my dog has four legs and a tail and so do pits.

JenSteele
July 9th, 2005, 12:55 AM
So true :)

On the Bentley front, Bentley's Mom is having good success getting her evidence together, thanks everyone for your opinions. There's a catch to the way they claimed her dog is a pit, and it looks like the KW HS is going to lose again.

In other good news ... Looks like another family gets to keep their dog because of another bad by-law written by idiots.. see below - it looks like somebody up there is watching out for our pups :)

.................................

http://nb.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=nb-dog20050706&ref=rss
Court says family can keep dog Last updated Jul 6 2005 09:12 AM ADT
CBC News A couple in Hartland have won their long-running battle to keep their pet Rottweiler, in spite of a municipal bylaw which bans people from owning the dogs.

The town took Jon and Sherry Kroom to court Tuesday to force them to comply with the four-year-old bylaw.

Judge Paulette Garnett told the court that she had once been a high school grammar teacher, and she said grammar was what this case came down to.

The law stipulates that it is illegal for town residents to become owners of Rottweilers and pit bulls because they pose a threat to public safety.

Garnett said "become" was the key word.

The Kroons owned their dog before moving to Hartland two years ago. As such, Garnett ruled they didn't "become" owners, but already were owners, when they became Hartland residents.

With that in mind, she said the wording of the bylaw didn't apply to the family and their dog, and dismissed the case

In the end, what was expected to be a two-day trial lasted only an hour.

The Kroons and the lawyers for both sides refused to comment on the judge's ruling.

The town hasn't said if it will appeal.

Schwinn
July 11th, 2005, 11:26 AM
Can anyone tell me what breeds have the bone ridge in the middle of the skull? I was always told that it was mainly pits. I've had several dogs, and been around many more. Daisy is the only one to ever have it, and other pits I've been around have it as well.

lezzpezz
July 11th, 2005, 01:59 PM
My Great Pyr has a prominent bone ridge on the top of her head. I just met a huge male Pyr who had the same bone ridge at the top of his skull as well. Is this the "ridge" you are referring to? :confused:

Prin
July 11th, 2005, 02:20 PM
Dobies have a ridge too-- but I can't find a decent picture to show it...

Melinda
July 11th, 2005, 02:42 PM
my lab/shephard also has a bone ridge, as did my late lab/rotti/gr dane,

Luvmypit
July 11th, 2005, 04:06 PM
Be carefull what you say or you will be accused of having a pit or they will add that ridge into the boxy square head description.

Melinda
July 11th, 2005, 04:14 PM
I have already thought of that for future use and have a copy of the purebred lab's registration papers (daddy's), and the mother and father of the mom of my pup, they were pure shephard and pure black lab. (are you following that?) *L*, I also have pics of my puppy still nursing off the mom and a signed paper from the owners stating I bought Brina from them on a certain date, I had the vet stamp it to show he confirms her breed or lack of. I know that still won't be enough, but the head of the humaine society here is Brina's trainer and the owner of 3 pb's. and she says it's at least a start.

Schwinn
July 11th, 2005, 04:32 PM
The ridge I'm referring to feels like a klingon's skull without the ripples. (I don't know if that explains it). It's the one that knocks me unconcious when I get wrestling on the floor with her! I know that the dogs I have met don't have that, and someone mentioned to me that all pitties do. I don't think it's that common, and I'm pretty sure I've never met it in shepards or labs, not the pronounced way it is in Daisy. It feels like a quarter inch high ridge going back between her eyes on top of her skull. Okay, everyone. Feel your doggies head! Who's got ridges? Show of hands!!

Prin
July 11th, 2005, 04:35 PM
Don't all dogs have a ridge? Isn't that how the skull is shaped?
Here:
http://137.222.110.150/calnet/dogskull/dogskull.htm

Prin
July 11th, 2005, 04:37 PM
It's called the Sagittal Crest:
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/anatomical_images/dog_skull/dog_dorsal.jpg

Melinda
July 11th, 2005, 04:48 PM
yes Prin, they do, but on some it is more pronounced, same as all dogs have noses, but some are longer, more square, etc....*S*

Schwinn
July 11th, 2005, 05:08 PM
Thanks, Prin. I looked at those links, and the top one on this page looks the closest to what I can feel...

http://137.222.110.150/calnet/dogskull/dogskull.htm

And what Melinda is saying sounds like what I'm feeling...a VERY pronounced ridge. I know that with other dogs (my dad's husky, my parent's old boxer/shepard/yaddayadda cross), it isn't nearly as pronounced. I think this is part of what gives her that "boxy" look to her head. Daisy was the first dog I felt a really significant difference. Other dogs it felt like a ripple, but with her, there is a definite ridge. I feel it every time the little maniac head-butts me. I talked to some others who said that they only felt that in pitts. We've had a few vets tell us Daisy is half pitt (though nothing in writing), so I thought that was one of the defining characteristics.

Prin
July 11th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Well, Wolfhounds do have a painfully sharp ridge, but their heads are much narrower than a pitty.

lezzpezz
July 11th, 2005, 05:18 PM
Well, the 2 pyrs have an extremely pronounce crest. One might think it almost looks like a deformity, but somehow it works for them! Quite pointy!

Schwinn
July 11th, 2005, 05:26 PM
My Dad's neighbour has a Great Pyroneese who comes over to visit. I'll have to feel up his skull next time I see him...

JenSteele
July 12th, 2005, 11:55 AM
Just some thoughts...

There's the eye ridge and a skull ridge (sagittal crest) and through ridge. The best example of the skull ridge is a wolfhound. I've also seen wolfhound crosses with the ridge so that's a pretty prominant feature for that breed and unmistakeable. It's like a long mini bone shooting up between their ears and feels kinda freaky if you've never seen it before.

The eye ridge, hounds, some ridgeback variations, some retriever breeds, some boxer variations, doberman, german shep, most terrier breeds, -- it's a long list. I wouldn't call it even remotely a dominant feature of a pit. :)

That's like the people who call their dog a pit because it has a j shaped tail which is a huge no no in identifying a pitbull. Dominant pits have a pump handle shaped tail. J shaped curling over the dog usually means not even close to a pit in a mix.

There's also people who call dogs pits when they have a deep through, the hallow in the middle of the head going from their stop to the top of their skull.. .that's a feature of about 50 or so other breeds. :) Now the alternate ridge is prominant in some shep mixes and purebreds, doberman mixes and purebreds, some hound mixes and purebreds and that's a long list too..

And purebred pit breeds aren't water bred, so they won't have full webbing at all. All dogs to some extent have webbing, but full webbing goes from the base of their pad to the tip of their toes where the nail begins - looks like a duck foot when you spread the paw and the paw spreads easily unlike non-waterbred dogs. When the paw is relaxed it takes the shape of a cat foot (toes arched).. non water bred usually have flat feet, toes laying flat. There's 35+ exclusively waterbred breeds.

:) Jen

Akeeter
July 12th, 2005, 02:50 PM
those huge, fierce, nasty, & comatose!! Bloodhounds. If they plan to use 'skull ridges' as evidence of Pit Bull blood, I hope the Clampetts bring their 'shootin' irons' to any trial that tries to push that kind of 'evidence'. :crazy:

sigh...what next :rolleyes:

CyberKitten
July 12th, 2005, 04:13 PM
I tried to read Lily's entire story on your site and alas, the way it was laid out, a notice at the end of the story simply indicated the rest of the story is loacted elsewhere on the site (something along those lines). I a, perpetually in a hurry - an occupational thing - so I just don't have time to find the rest of the story. Do you think you can just add a link to it - it would be so so much easier. As much as I want to read the rest of the story, I do not have time to search!!!

If it turned out well - and I am assuning it did from posts here - congrats!!

Schwinn
July 12th, 2005, 05:24 PM
It's definitely a skull ridge. And she definitly doesn't have the webbed feet.

I guess this kind of illustrates the point beautifully, eh? We still believe pitbull because that's what the vets have been telling us, but I think Daisy is probably a classic example of "maybe".

JenSteele
July 12th, 2005, 06:53 PM
I tried to read Lily's entire story on your site and alas, the way it was laid out, a notice at the end of the story simply indicated the rest of the story is loacted elsewhere on the site (something along those lines). I a, perpetually in a hurry - an occupational thing - so I just don't have time to find the rest of the story. Do you think you can just add a link to it - it would be so so much easier. As much as I want to read the rest of the story, I do not have time to search!!!

If it turned out well - and I am assuning it did from posts here - congrats!!


It's on the front page under WE WON!!!! in big red letters :) It's also under Lily's Trial Is over - top of the page right hand side :)

JenSteele
July 12th, 2005, 06:54 PM
It's definitely a skull ridge. And she definitly doesn't have the webbed feet.

I guess this kind of illustrates the point beautifully, eh? We still believe pitbull because that's what the vets have been telling us, but I think Daisy is probably a classic example of "maybe".


Is there a picture of Daisy somewhere?

Schwinn
July 13th, 2005, 10:24 AM
There's some grainy pictures here...

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=10940

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=16585

And some slightly better pictures here. Since Gracie came, I don't get on my computer at home, so unfortunately I don't have access to the better pictures right now. When she's playing and gets in her "stance" that's where the pitty really comes out. The say she's crossed with a Rotti, but I still think she's crossed with a Dobe.

JenSteele
July 13th, 2005, 11:33 AM
Shwin's Puppy with red-eye removed :) It's not always 100% accurate tho ... here ya go

Adorable BTW

;) Jen

Schwinn
July 13th, 2005, 11:45 AM
That's pretty close! Thanks! Everytime I try, it comes out looking like Anime-dog!

babyrocky1
July 13th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Rocky has the proncounced ridge your talking about but hes a staffy, so Ive been told :) But a few weeks ago I was looking in the art store for some books for my kids class and noticed a "how to draw dogs book" They had drawn another breed like that, I have no idea what it was but Ill go back to the strore asap. and find out, For both our sakes! :)

babyrocky1
July 13th, 2005, 06:56 PM
Sorry Schwinn, I just came back from the store and the dogs book has been sold. I think it was some sort of either a retreiver or a pointer though.