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Too All Of You Posting AGAINST buying mixed or hybrid dogs....

blueeyedviolin8
June 30th, 2005, 03:52 PM
I'm sorry but when I read these posts I kind of got upset. My boyfriend asked me if I wanted to take a ride to a pet store just to kill some time one afternoon....with no intentions of necessarily buying anything. I didn't realize they even had dogs or cats there. And they did. All I know is that I saw an adorable, sweet looking puppy so I asked the attendant to take her out so I could spend some time with her and I fell inlove with her. I asked what breed she was and was told she was a Puggle (Another hybrid being completely knocked by breeders and purebred buyers). Now YES I know a pet store is the worst place to buy a dog.....for YOU.... But it's the best thing you could do for the dog to get them out of there. Some of these places aren't much better then shelters and by buying that dog I saved her life. And I'll be the first person to admit I spent 1000$ on her. Not because she was a puggle,(I had never even heard of these dogs till I asked what her breed was) not because of any reason other then I fell inlove with her and needed to get her the hell out of that place. I immediately took her to the vet and found out that she had a bad respiratory infection and pnemonia. Had i NOT bought her for any reason (cause it was a pet store or because she was so expensive ect) the vet said she would have been dead within 3 or 4 days. I was going to use that 1000$ to buy a used car (I'm a college student and don't have extra money to throw around) and instead I saved a puppy. I don't care what breed she is or how much she cost or anything else, all I care about is that because of me she's alive and happy and healthy. If no one buys them, those puppies will die (JUST LIKE AT A SHELTER). I'm sorry but knowing you waited 6 months for your purebred and spent a thousand dollars (when someone else probably would have bought it in a minute and they were perfectly ok either way) isn't nearly as important to me as spending all the money I have to buy a sick dog to save her. Whether you buy a dog for a lot of money from a pet store, even a puppy mill or an ignorant breeder or rescue one from a shelter you are still saving the dog from a bad situation!!!!!! If you boycott or are against ANY form of buying ANY dog you are allowing these dogs to be left in neglegent conditions and possibly die! Think about this from the dogs' perspective for a minute! :(

Lizzie
June 30th, 2005, 03:59 PM
If you buy from a puppy mill, a pet store or a puppy broker you are only contributing the unethical business. YES it is sad to see those dogs there, but by buying one to "save it" as you said, you are actually encouraging the backyard breeders to continue their unethical breeding.

You may save that one dog, but in the end you put money in the pockets of people who are doing harm to dogs. By allowing the puppies to sit in the stores without finding a home, you are actually doing more good. Sure, this is terrible for the handful of dogs in the stores, but if no one buys dogs from pet stores then they will have to stop bringing them in...thus shutting down the business.

If I were you I would do some more reasearch on the puppy mill, back yard breeder and rescue operations in this country...I'm sure you'll have many people come on here to enlighten you.

Once you've walked a mile in the rescuers shoes you may have feel differently....you won't love your dog less (which no one would ever suggest you do), but you may learn that the pet store is not a good place.

sammiec
June 30th, 2005, 04:02 PM
OBVIOUSLY you're new here! Welcome.. :rolleyes:

When we suggest that people not buy animals from the pet store it is because you are supporting the BYB and puppy millers breeding those dogs. You wouldn't go out and buy all the drugs froma drugdealer to prevent them from being bought by a child would you?

We realize that this poor innocent animals are suffering. The people that put them in that condition will continue to do so even if we were to buy all the dogs inthe pet store to save them! Do you think those people breeding these dogs over and over without proper shelter, space, food, and water really care about the fact that the dog is sick when they try and sell it? Nope, it's all about the money that you're putting in their pockets.

Yes, I know you said to look at it from the dogs prepective... but it's really a difficult situation - do you encourage the continuation of BYB and puppy miling by supporting their breeding to save that little puppy in the window? There will always be another little puppy in the window.....

blueeyedviolin8
June 30th, 2005, 04:04 PM
I have done research. I am completely aware and enlightened. AND I am also somewhat of a dog rescuer myself. I've had SEVERAL families of dogs stay with me until I carefully screened people and found them wonderful homes. Dogs right off the street. You're saving the puppy if you buy it and then NOT encouraging ANYTHING if you then go and report the matters to SEVERAL of the proper authorities afterwards.........I apologize I believe I left that part out :evil:

Beaglemom
June 30th, 2005, 04:04 PM
I don't have a problem with mix breed dogs. In fact most of our dogs have been mixes. The only purebred that I have ever had is my beagle, and she was abandoned as a puppy not purchased by me. We found her malnourished and full of worms and fleas. The only problem that I have is with the people who breed them. They are in it for the money not for anything else.

Pet stores sell the products of puppy mills and backyard breeders. By purchasing a pet from a store you are allowing the cycle to continue. Another will take it's place in the cage and thousands more will be bred because there is a market for it. People are buying them. Yes you saved that one puppy, but left behind is her mother, father and hundreds more.

I have nothing against mixes, there are many wonderful pets at shelters and rescues around the world waiting for a home. I love dogs, regardless of breed, I just believe that they should be bred properly and not for profit.

Wudjah
June 30th, 2005, 04:05 PM
on the new puppy. We're there other puppies there? If your puppy is as sick as you say it is then others would be sick as well. Maybe you should call your local humane society and lodge a complaint against the store...then they could go in and investigate and hopefully find out what PUPPY MILL or BYB that your puppy's parents are at and they could possibly save them from a lifetime of breeding, neglect, and abuse. See it doesn't just stop by "saving" a puppy.

Jenny

blueeyedviolin8
June 30th, 2005, 04:08 PM
People, read my second post.

lezzpezz
June 30th, 2005, 04:16 PM
This has happened to me....I am merrily typing my response in what I believe to be a rapid manner and the answer appears ahead of my response, making me look like a boob that hasn't read the posts! In actuality, it's just about timing, especially when several people are responding simultaneously. It is encouraging that you are considering contacting authorities on this matter.

blueeyedviolin8
June 30th, 2005, 04:19 PM
I had no idea......for a second I thought it was just being ignored! thank you. When I brought the pup to the vet I ran into a few different people who alsp bought animals there who had problems and I am researching how to attack this place and wherever they get their animals from in full force!!!!!!!! :evil:

amber416
June 30th, 2005, 04:23 PM
Even if you reported the situation to the authorities (what were you reporting...that the puppy was sick?) you still gave the miller and the pet store that supports the miller 1000 dollars. That is still contributing to the cycle. You say to look at things from the dog's perspective. It is easy to take that attitude when it comes to an adorable little puppy but what about his mother? She's probably not too adorable as her coat is most likely matted with feces and her feet are possibly even deformed from the wire in her tiny cage. If you and all the others who just can't resist that puppy in the window, hadn't bought a petstore dog, you would have helped cut down the demand for whatever type of designer mutt it was you bought and maybe that poor mother dog would have one less litter she would be forced to have in terrible conditions. That's the way i see it, anyway....no amount of rationalizing and excuses will EVER make it okay, in my opinion, to buy from a pet store.

Beaglemom
June 30th, 2005, 04:25 PM
Yup, many people were responding at the same time. I think it is great that you are reporting it. I had a converstation once with someone at a vet clinic while I waited about puppies in pet stores. She informed me that they have an account with a particular pet store and there is a constant stream of sick puppies and kittens from this store.

lezzpezz
June 30th, 2005, 04:27 PM
Well you have come to the right place to find out how to do that! I'm sure there are several on this site who have dealt with this very issue and will be a fount of good info on this one! I say for starters, gather info from folks that have purchased animals from this store and also any medical bills that they have incurred. Pet purchase receipts would be good especially if they coincide with veterinary visits. You could also have someone go in and smoothly ask where the animals come from. Anyone out there done this type of espionage before?? :D

Lissa
June 30th, 2005, 04:27 PM
I will never buy from a pet store or breeder (reputable or not) and I think you'll find that many people on this site are the same.
I believe in rescuing animals, not putting money in the pockets of people who are out to breed pups that will *hopefully* sell qucikly for a profit.
We all know how easy it is to fall in love with a puppy (no matter where it is, where it came from or how much it is). But buying from a pet shop only perpetuates puppy mills and byb's.
I don't think it matters that your are reporting them to the authorities, you still bought your Puggle for a ridiculous price tag and are encouraging byb's and puppy mills. You now have a part in increasing the demand - what else do you think is going to happen but an increase in supply? Tomorrow there will be other puppies in the window.
I am a university student as well and if I had $1000 I would get a pup from a rescue and save the rest (for vet visits or that used car!)
Melissa

blueeyedviolin8
June 30th, 2005, 04:30 PM
You are saying this to a girl who a week earlier took in a 13 year old BLIND maltese who looked like hell. Had the puppies mother been at the store I would have bought her too!!!!! And I'm not talking about calling someone andsaying i want to report a sick puppy. That would be an excersize in futility! I'm not a nitwit! I have spoken to lots of other people who have bought animals with HUGE problems from the same place, I am organizing a petition getting everyone together andinforming the press, media and SEVERAL organizations about this place and casueing a HUGE deal about it....which is kind of what ALL of us should be doing asanimal loversinstead of spending all of our time posting messages on the internet TALKING about things! we should all be DOING things! I have taken in every ugle, old, sick, beaten up dog that's crossed my path so please don't tell me it was easy for me to buy my puppy because she was cute. I have spend thousands of dollars cleaning up and tending to animals that no one wanted. Please be aware that you might not know the person you are making these accusations towards and they might be false.

blueeyedviolin8
June 30th, 2005, 04:36 PM
I'M getting off my rump and DOING something about this.....are any of you? Cause if you're not don't lecture other people about promoting this stuff.......Doing NOTHING is just as bad as encouraging it!

lezzpezz
June 30th, 2005, 04:45 PM
I see where this is going. Yes, a puppy was purchased at a petstore :eek: and it is now healthy and in a loving home. I don't believe the puppy was purchased with the intention of perpetuating sales for a slipshod cruel animal breeding factory. It was bought to help it, which is another way that some folks out there, without the inside scoop on mills etc., might look at things, or in blueyedviolin8's case, (BEV8, if I may), to save it's little life. This has actually become a catalyst for BEV8 to become proactive in the dissolution of said puppymill/byb operation. This to me, is a GOOD thing!

BEV8 now owns this little doggy and is not to darn likely going to "return" it to the petstore or the BYB. She owns it and is now gonna work with others on bringing down the nasties :thumbs up

How's about we focus on helping her do this.

blueeyedviolin8
June 30th, 2005, 04:49 PM
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU Lezzerpezzer (or Lezpez if i may ;) ) SOMEONE'S ACTUALLY GETTING ME HERE!!!!!!!......lets save ALL the puppies AND their ugly parents ! :p i'm obviously joking about the ugly thing.......COME ON PEOPLE STOP TALKING! START DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :grouphug:

pags
June 30th, 2005, 04:52 PM
I'M getting off my rump and DOING something about this.....are any of you? Cause if you're not don't lecture other people about promoting this stuff.......Doing NOTHING is just as bad as encouraging it!

Doing nothing and then lecturing other people about also doing nothing is non-productive, true. But refusing to do business with a particular entity or type of entity and then lecturing others to also refuse to do business with that particular entity or type of entity is also known as a boycott.

blueeyedviolin8
June 30th, 2005, 04:58 PM
but that IS doing nothing!!!!! it's passive aggressive!!!!!! boycotting these places is insuring that A) other people will buy the dogs anyway and B) THESE DOGS WILL BE NEGLECTED AND DIE!!!!!!!!!!!! don't boycott......boycotting is a form of laziness! it's a lame way of not CONTRIBUTING to the problem but not doing anything about it in the grand scheme of things either. I'm sure all thoseanimals are very happy to know so many of you would let them sit there and rot rather then get up and fight for them. To call yourself an animal lover and NOT do something ACTIVELY and AGRESSIVELY (and i dont mean hitting people with chairs agressively) is disspicable! :yuck:

Bearsmom
June 30th, 2005, 04:59 PM
Iysh. BV8, I suggest you get your "knowledgeable" butt on over to some of the graphic websites that show you EXACTLY how some of the puppy mills are run. Viewing THOSE pictures will far better educate you than obviously we can. By buying a pet store puppy, you've placed 1000-1500 smackers in a back yard breeders hands.

Since you're such a rescuer, why on earth didn't you go to petfinder?

lezzpezz
June 30th, 2005, 04:59 PM
On this site, as you are quickly learning, people are very passionate, in different ways and about different issues. No 2 minds are exactly alike, but our main focus is the welfare of animals. What one may do to solve a problem may not be what another would do, but you are on the same path to the same resolution. Get rid of the source of sickly, ill-bred, mistreated animals. If you refer to post # 12, I gave you what little bit of advice to help you that I could think of, as I have never attempted to do such a monumental task! I hope others will be forthcoming with good stuff to set you on your way. I am outta here for the weekend and will try to check in to see how this thread is progressing. It is very interesting and good luck BEV8! Regards, Lezpez :p Happy Canada Day to all!! :ca:

heidiho
June 30th, 2005, 05:00 PM
Exactly what Bearsmom said............... :thumbs up :thumbs up

Bearsmom
June 30th, 2005, 05:03 PM
but that IS doing nothing!!!!! it's passive aggressive!!!!!! boycotting these places is insuring that A) other people will buy the dogs anyway and B) THESE DOGS WILL BE NEGLECTED AND DIE!!!!!!!!!!!! don't boycott......boycotting is a form of laziness! it's a lame way of not CONTRIBUTING to the problem but not doing anything about it in the grand scheme of things either. I'm sure all thoseanimals are very happy to know so many of you would let them sit there and rot rather then get up and fight for them. To call yourself an animal lover and NOT do something ACTIVELY and AGRESSIVELY (and i dont mean hitting people with chairs agressively) is disspicable! :yuck:

Don't you dare accuse members of this board of not caring. There are several members on here who run rescues, and some who have spent months and millions fighting the puppy millers. Watch what you say.

pags
June 30th, 2005, 05:06 PM
It's not called passive-aggressive. That is a personality disorder. It is called passive resistance. Somebody tell Gandhi he was lazy, please.

However - a boycott does involve actively educating others to the cause and trying to establish secondary boycotts through economic and social pressure rallied against affiliated organizations.

Quick link to a PBS article outlining a few successful boycotts in history:

http://www.pbs.org/now/society/boycott.html

Rosa Parks - the lazy woman who wouldn't get off that &$&#^$ bus. Man. What's the world coming to, eh?

Luba
June 30th, 2005, 05:12 PM
ROTFLMHO @ u Anita

Thats brilliant
It's not called passive-aggressive. That is a personality disorder. It is called passive resistance. Somebody tell Gandhi he was lazy, please.

nymph
June 30th, 2005, 05:40 PM
just isn't the best thing to a dog. You probably saved one, but you'd just sponsored another 10 puppies to be mass produced and perhaps dumped later. There are thousands if not millions of dogs in shelters waiting to be adopted, I'd get them out of euthanasia room first.

A pet store IS NOT a shelter, they work for money and money only. In a market economy, demand drives everything, so to stop the supply, you'd have to cut down the demand, which is YOU, individual buyer. Sorry if this is upsetting you, but unless people stop buying puppies from puppy stores, puppy millers will always exist.

amber416
June 30th, 2005, 05:52 PM
lissa, bearsmom: exactly

blueeyedviolin: i never called you a nit wit :rolleyes: , nor did i make any "accusations". All i was saying is that you were failing to look at the perspective of the mother dog. The dog you don't see in the pet store window. I don't really care how determined you are to take some sort of "action" right now as you just put 1000 dollars into the puppy mill industry. Congratulations. I do act...i have handed out countless puppy mill flyers, i have been asked to leave pet stores for informing customers where dogs like your little puggle come from and i am preparing to foster for a puppy mill rescue. Many people on here work in some form of animal rescue so i would be careful who you accuse of doing nothing. And i would have to disagree with you about posting on the internet being a form of doing nothing. Education is the most important form of action, in my opinion, when it comes to puppy mills. There is a lack of information and there is dangerous misinformation.

LL1
June 30th, 2005, 05:54 PM
Thank you.
Don't you dare accuse members of this board of not caring. There are several members on here who run rescues, and some who have spent months and millions fighting the puppy millers. Watch what you say.

Mockingcat
June 30th, 2005, 06:01 PM
Our local rescues banded together and got the local pet stores to largely stop carrying puppies. (One still does, but they take in accidental litters from families in the town to do so). So instead of saving ONE dog, they saved hundreds.

You have come onto this board with a very condescending attitude. You think that because you have saved dogs, you know more about saving dogs than anyone else on this board, and you are sadly mistaken. Members here slave with rescues to save dozens of dogs each DAY.

You chide people for spending $1000 on a purebred dog... yet if you'd gotten your same puggle mutt from the shelter and given them $1000, imagine how many more lives you could've saved? At least reputable breeders, the kind that you wait 6 months to get a puppy from, ACTIVELY participate in rescue and adoption. Your pet store certainly doesn't do that. Our shelter asks for donations of $25, because that's food for one animal for one week. Giving your $1000 to a shelter would've kept 40 animals alive for one week. Please don't talk to me about how many dogs you save.

I am so upset right now, because of the attitude you have taken towards the other members of this board, accusing them of not caring because they don't buy puppy-mill dogs. (BTW, have you been back to the pet store? Is there another sick puggle coughing in the window? It's only a matter of time, because YOU enabled them. They made a huge profit off of that dog, and they'll go and do it again.)

Wudjah
June 30th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Now is a good time to mention that my Sister adopted a 4 month old F1b goldendoodle (which is 3/4 poodle and 1/4 golden retriever) from my shelter about 2 years ago. Sadie was originally purchased at a petstore in Toronto for $1400 +tax. The people who bought her had bought her brother the week before and when they went back and saw her still there they felt sorry for her. Then they realized a month or two later that it was too much have two dogs - they gave her away to a friend of mine after asking no questions, and she ended up with me (friend got her with the intention to have her spayed & rehomed so she didn't end up in the hands of a puppymill). Sadie ended up having colitis and having a tumour removed at 6 months of age. I would think that her parents are still out there somewhere making more sick puppies for that petstore.
Thankfully Sadie's condition can be controlled by diet and she's turned into a gorgeous girl....even though my sister loves her, they'd never even think of going to a petstore to get another one.

Jenny

Luba
June 30th, 2005, 06:49 PM
Petstores, Backyard breeders, Puppy Mills, latest doodle craze or mixed breeding ....all the same to me! They're all a bunch of money hungry rear enders looking for a quick buck at the expense of the animals.

Anyone who is 'educated' enough to know about this and still BUYS (not saves) BUYS a dog / puppy from them is just as bad as they are!

blueeyedviolin8
June 30th, 2005, 06:57 PM
it now occurs to me that most of you on here simply want to argue with people. DID I NOT DIRECT THE LACK OF BEING A TRUE ANIMAL LOVER TOWARDS PEOPLE WHO DO NOTHING? (obviously those people wouldnt be people who run rescue places and actually fight mill owners) why dont you stop selectively reading what i post and only paying attention to points that you think will fuel your argumentative instincts. And don't tell me to watch what I say I'm not a three year old and while you might be "bears mom" you certainly are not mine. That's what these message boards are FOR. peopl e having the right to talk so if you want to try to censer what people are saying, a message board created for that wouldnt be a good place to do it......ya know what ...NONE of you with the exception of maybe one or two are at all open to listening to anything that i'm saying. Instead you chose to get nasty. You talk to me like i'm some stupid 10 year old girl who sawa cute puppy in a window....apparently NONE of those of who did that read my ENTIRE story OPENLY. I happen to be in the process of getting my doctorate so I'm not stupid. My best friend is a veternary nurse And as a matter of fact it was a horrendously graphic article ON puppy mills which made me think it would be a good idea to join this thing in the first place. And all i get is a bunch of superior remarks from a bunch of close minded, snobby, hypocritical people who are too interested in a friggin witch hunt and arguing with someone they don't even know what so ever but are DYING to place all kinds of false judgements on. NONE of you are reading all of my posts...mockingcat....it was saving that one dog that made me decide to fight all of this stupid crap and take it on with a group of other people but you didnt read that did you? or if you did you certainly forgot that when you wrote your condescending post. ALSO I didn't say ANYTHING bad about anyone paying 1000$ for a purebred dog or ANY kind of dog for that matter. READ BEFORE YOU RESPOND! and no passive agressive is not just a "mental pr personailty dissorder" I have a B.S. in psychology. Passive Agressive behavior is a means of acting , a form of behavior..... as well not just a diagnoses for something...Ya know what I'm done with this crap. Most of you are a bunch of self righteous *******s who don't know a fraction of what you think you do. And how you're all handling this (like a bunch of bratty children) has forced me to have to sink down to your level so maybe you will understand me. Instead of anyone offering me possible ways to try to fight these people or help of any sort in my crusade (once again this all is aimed at most but not ALL of you) has made me think nothing but negatively about you people. so here it is on YOUR terms GO **** YOURSELVES!....don't bother reporting me because by the time you do I will already have cancelled this account as I do not wish to argue with a bunch of people who ahve double digit IQ's and a huge chip on their shoulders anyway. To those of you one or two that actually WERE supportive? YOU are good, mature human beings and I thank you. And now I leave the rest of you in your sand box to continue pissing all over one another. :::picture smiley face giving middle finger HERE :::

Sneaky2006
June 30th, 2005, 07:00 PM
If you made a mistake and bought a petstore puppy, fine. But you bought one knowing where it came from, how is that helping? You may have helped that one little puppy but so many more are on the way, with your assistance. Don't you understand that part?
You wanna hoot and hollar about what all of us do here to help rescue animals and you just put $1000 into a mills pocket, do you know how much a rescue could do with that kind of money????

You want to do things the right way? You got this part wrong!go and report the matters to SEVERAL of the proper authorities afterwards You do this before, then adopt.

Sneaky2006
June 30th, 2005, 07:02 PM
it now occurs to me that most of you on here simply want to argue with people. DID I NOT DIRECT THE LACK OF BEING A TRUE ANIMAL LOVER TOWARDS PEOPLE WHO DO NOTHING? (obviously those people wouldnt be people who run rescue places and actually fight mill owners) why dont you stop selectively reading what i post and only paying attention to points that you think will fuel your argumentative instincts. And don't tell me to watch what I say I'm not a three year old and while you might be "bears mom" you certainly are not mine. That's what these message boards are FOR. peopl e having the right to talk so if you want to try to censer what people are saying, a message board created for that wouldnt be a good place to do it......ya know what ...NONE of you with the exception of maybe one or two are at all open to listening to anything that i'm saying. Instead you chose to get nasty. You talk to me like i'm some stupid 10 year old girl who sawa cute puppy in a window....apparently NONE of those of who did that read my ENTIRE story OPENLY. I happen to be in the process of getting my doctorate so I'm not stupid. My best friend is a veternary nurse And as a matter of fact it was a horrendously graphic article ON puppy mills which made me think it would be a good idea to join this thing in the first place. And all i get is a bunch of superior remarks from a bunch of close minded, snobby, hypocritical people who are too interested in a friggin witch hunt and arguing with someone they don't even know what so ever but are DYING to place all kinds of false judgements on. NONE of you are reading all of my posts...mockingcat....it was saving that one dog that made me decide to fight all of this stupid crap and take it on with a group of other people but you didnt read that did you? or if you did you certainly forgot that when you wrote your condescending post. ALSO I didn't say ANYTHING bad about anyone paying 1000$ for a purebred dog or ANY kind of dog for that matter. READ BEFORE YOU RESPOND! and no passive agressive is not just a "mental pr personailty dissorder" I have a B.S. in psychology. Passive Agressive behavior is a means of acting , a form of behavior..... as well not just a diagnoses for something...Ya know what I'm done with this crap. Most of you are a bunch of self righteous *******s who don't know a fraction of what you think you do. And how you're all handling this (like a bunch of bratty children) has forced me to have to sink down to your level so maybe you will understand me. Instead of anyone offering me possible ways to try to fight these people or help of any sort in my crusade (once again this all is aimed at most but not ALL of you) has made me think nothing but negatively about you people. so here it is on YOUR terms GO **** YOURSELVES!....don't bother reporting me because by the time you do I will already have cancelled this account as I do not wish to argue with a bunch of people who ahve double digit IQ's and a huge chip on their shoulders anyway. To those of you one or two that actually WERE supportive? YOU are good, mature human beings and I thank you. And now I leave the rest of you in your sand box to continue pissing all over one another. :::picture smiley face giving middle finger HERE :::First, you're very mature, congrats. Second, have you ever heard of paragraphs? Geeez, I can't even read that novel.

LL1
June 30th, 2005, 07:04 PM
And we are unfairly treating you as a child?And wanting to argue?Get some help,and wash your mouth out.Learn how to write and get off the pipe.
it now occurs to me that most of you on here simply want to argue with people. And don't tell me to watch what I say I'm not a three year old and while you might be "bears mom" you certainly are not mine. You talk to me like i'm some stupid 10 year old girl who sawa cute puppy in a window....apparently NONE of those of who did that read my ENTIRE story OPENLY. And all i get is a bunch of superior remarks from a bunch of close minded, snobby, hypocritical people who are too interested in a friggin witch hunt and arguing with someone they don't even know what so ever but are DYING to place all kinds of false judgements on. .Ya know what I'm done with this crap. Most of you are a bunch of self righteous *******s who don't know a fraction of what you think you do.And how you're all handling this (like a bunch of bratty children) has forced me to have to sink down to your level so maybe you will understand me. Instead of anyone offering me possible ways to try to fight these people or help of any sort in my crusade (once again this all is aimed at most but not ALL of you) has made me think nothing but negatively about you people. so here it is on YOUR terms GO **** YOURSELVES!....don't bother reporting me because by the time you do I will already have cancelled this account as I do not wish to argue with a bunch of people who ahve double digit IQ's and a huge chip on their shoulders anyway. And now I leave the rest of you in your sand box to continue pissing all over one another. :::picture smiley face giving middle finger HERE :::

mafiaprincess
June 30th, 2005, 07:04 PM
Mods can you lock this and ban the OP.. that is pretty offensive when you fill in the **s and other nasty comments..

shannon1233A
June 30th, 2005, 07:10 PM
Okay, lets try it this way blueviolineyes, you paid $1000.00 to a pet store, who will now excitedly phone the byb and tell them they made $1000.00.

How many more puppies are now in the near future going to be sitting sickly in some other pet store dying, because the breeder wants another $1000. per puppy? You may have just saved one life, that's great, but at what cost? Not financially, but how many more pupies are going to die because the pet shop and byb want more $$$$$$.

See, you said two important things. One, the pup was sickly, and Second, you're doing all you can to shut them down...great, but believe you me, that breeder, will just find ANOTHER shop to stick those 10 other pupies in that she'll breed. Congratulations on your pup, and Congratulations on maybe helping to bring 10 more into the world that will never find the love and life they deserve.

Hug that puppy dearly, he deserves all the love you can give him, I mean that sincerely, but tell your friends NOT to save 1 to abuse 10.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 30th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Okay I didn't read this thread word for word but it did get pretty nasty. There must be some way we can encourage pet stores to stop selling puppy mill dogs.


Here is my idea.[U] of what petstores could do.
They could raise the prices slightly of all the other products, food, pet toys etc .. even fish (are they from a fish mill) and all the other smaller animals. IF of course they are not from any other kind of animal mill. They can take in animals and dogs and cats that actually do need homes and are not from puppy mills but would take some load off of the rescues. The raised prices of all the other stuff would make up for the difference on what they would make through selling a mill dog. I suppose the profit is split with the breeder somehow.

They then could tell the puppy mills that they will no longer be selling their puppies for them. The breeders will be forced to slow down their breeding and eventually stop as no pet stores will want them. We will be able to adopt a dog from a petstore and know that we actually did save a dog and not just put money in someones pocket so they can breed more dogs.

And then the puppy mill owner will be forced to close and all of his dogs will be adopted out at his expense,because he will have to clean up the huge mess left over from the condition of his mill. Hopefully they can all be saved, spayed and neutered and adopted to loving patient homes. The puppy mill owner will never be allowed any animals but will be forced to clean up the poop at a local dog park for the rest of his days.

mafiaprincess
June 30th, 2005, 07:30 PM
Some petstores already do. Petsmart features rescue cats. The local petsmart has dogs every sunday as a mini adoption fair, and they publicize bigger adoption fairs off and on in their stores.
Super pet refuses to sell larger animals as well, but a lot of people take offence that smaller animals are still being sold.

It would be awesome if places like Petland took local rescues instead, but then there's the problem of finding a forever home when the usual clientel are impulse shoppers... Workign out the logistics so that the animals are adopted out under the same conditions they would be in rescue..

amber416
June 30th, 2005, 07:30 PM
hahaha...i just love when people only give replies the label fair (or "mature" in this case) to the replies that are on some level agreeing with them or rationalizing what they have said.....with the expectation that you will come back to read what your little post has produced, blueeyedviolin, i pity your ignorance....you should really try and educate yourself a little more while running your mouth a little less, and while you're working on that doctorate, you should try a course in basic english :rolleyes:

Mockingcat
June 30th, 2005, 07:33 PM
In addition, our local rescues have all banded together to help with the local "Animall". It's a nonprofit mallfront, where rescues can bring their animals on the weekends. It puts a "pet store" in the mall, but they're all rescues, and all the adopters are screened by the individual rescues. :)

Luba
June 30th, 2005, 08:09 PM
I don't read long garbaly goob thats not even in paragraph form!! LOL

This isn't proper essay format LMFHO

Sneaky2006
June 30th, 2005, 09:34 PM
I don't read long garbaly goob thats not even in paragraph form!! LOL

This isn't proper essay format LMFHOThat's what I said, sorta! I can't even read it, really. All I keep seeing is a few words in caps standing out.
I wonder how many actually read that word for word... :rolleyes:

pags
June 30th, 2005, 10:12 PM
*peer* My but that was a whirlwind of .. of something.

I did try to read the whole thing word for word and I did get out of it that we apparently weren't reading her posts word for word and that was the problem. So I made another concentrated effort to read her post word for word... And then the whole thing gets kind of cyclical fast.

You know.. I don't have a B.S. in Psychology but it seems to me there was a whole lot of passive-aggressiveness going on here today. :angel:

And and no passive agressive is not just a "mental pr personailty dissorder" I have a B.S. in psychology. Passive Agressive behavior is a means of acting , a form of behavior..... as well not just a diagnoses for something...Ya know what I'm done with this crap is possibly the worst explanation/definition of any psychological phenomena I have ever seen. Dunno.. it would sort of be like me telling you I have a B.A. in Political Science and then not being able to explain passive resistance as a form of nonviolent protest. Hmmm.

Anyway - this whole thread was borderline ridiculous the entire time. I suppose it's as futile as trying to explain to people why it's counterproductive to pay a ransom to a terrorist group for the release of a hostage. In my humble opinion.. that's exactly what these puppy store puppies are - up for ransom. I can totally understand how easy it would be to break down and free one of the captives... But funding the terrorists is not the brightest way to put them out of business.

Wudjah
June 30th, 2005, 10:24 PM
that people just come here to stir things up? I mean OBVIOUSLY she knew what everyone's reaction would be to her announcing that she bought a pup from a petstore. I guess the word is troll........

Jenny

Bearsmom
June 30th, 2005, 10:28 PM
it now occurs to me that most of you on here simply want to argue with people. DID I NOT DIRECT THE LACK OF BEING A TRUE ANIMAL LOVER TOWARDS PEOPLE WHO DO NOTHING? (obviously those people wouldnt be people who run rescue places and actually fight mill owners) why dont you stop selectively reading what i post and only paying attention to points that you think will fuel your argumentative instincts. And don't tell me to watch what I say I'm not a three year old and while you might be "bears mom" you certainly are not mine. That's what these message boards are FOR. peopl e having the right to talk so if you want to try to censer what people are saying, a message board created for that wouldnt be a good place to do it......ya know what ...NONE of you with the exception of maybe one or two are at all open to listening to anything that i'm saying. Instead you chose to get nasty. You talk to me like i'm some stupid 10 year old girl who sawa cute puppy in a window....apparently NONE of those of who did that read my ENTIRE story OPENLY. I happen to be in the process of getting my doctorate so I'm not stupid. My best friend is a veternary nurse And as a matter of fact it was a horrendously graphic article ON puppy mills which made me think it would be a good idea to join this thing in the first place. And all i get is a bunch of superior remarks from a bunch of close minded, snobby, hypocritical people who are too interested in a friggin witch hunt and arguing with someone they don't even know what so ever but are DYING to place all kinds of false judgements on. NONE of you are reading all of my posts...mockingcat....it was saving that one dog that made me decide to fight all of this stupid crap and take it on with a group of other people but you didnt read that did you? or if you did you certainly forgot that when you wrote your condescending post. ALSO I didn't say ANYTHING bad about anyone paying 1000$ for a purebred dog or ANY kind of dog for that matter. READ BEFORE YOU RESPOND! and no passive agressive is not just a "mental pr personailty dissorder" I have a B.S. in psychology. Passive Agressive behavior is a means of acting , a form of behavior..... as well not just a diagnoses for something...Ya know what I'm done with this crap. Most of you are a bunch of self righteous *******s who don't know a fraction of what you think you do. And how you're all handling this (like a bunch of bratty children) has forced me to have to sink down to your level so maybe you will understand me. Instead of anyone offering me possible ways to try to fight these people or help of any sort in my crusade (once again this all is aimed at most but not ALL of you) has made me think nothing but negatively about you people. so here it is on YOUR terms GO **** YOURSELVES!....don't bother reporting me because by the time you do I will already have cancelled this account as I do not wish to argue with a bunch of people who ahve double digit IQ's and a huge chip on their shoulders anyway. To those of you one or two that actually WERE supportive? YOU are good, mature human beings and I thank you. And now I leave the rest of you in your sand box to continue pissing all over one another. :::picture smiley face giving middle finger HERE :::



Punctuation, and paragraphs. My eyes are bleeding from trying to read that.

LL1, you're welcome, I just couldn't stand seeing some hostility being directed towards board members for not trying to "save" a puppy, when paying $1000 to "save" a puppy could have meant vital surgery for one of the rescue dogs.

Enough said. Hopefully this charmer will quietly disappear into the sunset, although I highly doubt it.

Angeleyes1437
June 30th, 2005, 10:29 PM
You have all said basically what I would have if I had read this sooner. However, I would like to add how funny I find it when highly educated people think it means they know EVERYTHING. I too am educated yet I know that college only teaches you surface facts in general, and depth in your major.

So I am highly educated in business and technology, however someone without a college degree can know plenty more than me on other topics- or even in business and technology. School does not equal intelligence BEV8, and you are proving that with your posts.

She obviously cannot see anything outside of her tunnel vision.

Just to add to my point, I recently trained an attorney who had two Cocker Spaniels (which she bought from pet stores). I told her I had an American Pit Bull Terrier and she started telling me about a bite victim she is representing. He robbed someones house and while he was running out he ran into the dog and was bitten. Make a long story short he tried to get the dog put to sleep and the family fought for him, so he got one strike (which in NY equals 2 for a "Pit Bull").

Her case is to sue the family, who in my opinion are the victims. She is presenting evidence that a APBT's bite can be up to 2000psi...2000!!!! A cougar is 300, an EXCEPTIONALLY LARGE wolf (well over 150lbs) is approx. 500... how can a 50lbs. APBT have 2000!!! It's absurd, and from my own research previous to our meeting I know that no accurate test has ever been done on a APBT's psi. So I began to defend the dog, and the family... how can a highly educated woman, one of the heads of the Bar Association be SO misinformed? To make a longer story long... I ended up leaving, dropping her project and would love to run into her again so I can smirk and shake my head at her like the idiot she is. :D

Mockingcat
June 30th, 2005, 10:31 PM
You have all said basically what I would have if I had read this sooner. However, I would like to add how funny I find it when highly educated people think it means they know EVERYTHING. I too am educated yet I know that college only teaches you surface facts in general, and depth in your major.

Hee, I can vouch for this. My father-out-law is the nicest man in the world. He has 5 PhDs, has written numerous textbooks, and teaches college students. And yet, he still cannot figure out how to work a laptop without it melting down completely. ;)

pags
June 30th, 2005, 10:32 PM
that people just come here to stir things up? I mean OBVIOUSLY she knew what everyone's reaction would be to her announcing that she bought a pup from a petstore. I guess the word is troll........

Jenny

Yeah Jen I sure do. And there's been a lot of that around here lately too, I'm afraid. I'm always torn though.. I never know if we're dealing with someone (and this can be on any topic or on any discussion board, btw) who is just out to make trouble for everyone... or if we're honestly dealing with someone who is perhaps very young and pretending to be a lot older who really does not understand what we're trying to say.... Unfortunately most of the time our best intentions are lost on either one of those types of people.

Luba
June 30th, 2005, 10:37 PM
Ignorance breeds ignorance :D

laughingwaters
June 30th, 2005, 10:39 PM
Until last year, I had never lived in North America. We don't have many pet stores at home and those that exist are very small. If it was not for this forum, I would never have known what a puppy mill is, much less that those bright, shiny chain pet stores sell mass produced dogs. Now I understand, thanks to the members here. Activism has its place but I think educating people is extremely important. To call that "passive agressive" is plain wrong. Teaching people is legitimate activism.

My choice was to adopt an adult dog. He is a light in my life. He came from a high-kill shelter. A commercial pet store is not the same thing as a city-run shelter. The reason is simple. Shelters are out-of-the way. A city shelter has almost no marketing. The only people who go there are the ones who want an animal. There are no window-shoppers. So, a shelter animal is actually more in need of dedicated owners who won't give the animal up for adoption at the first sign of trouble.

So, all of these shrill, "don't accuse an angel" responses from Blueeyedviolin just seem out of place to me. It was an impulsive purchase. Accept it and move on.

sarahandelvis
July 1st, 2005, 07:22 AM
I left another doggy message board a few weeks ago, because of the way people reacted to one womans unwillingness to return a sickly pet store pup. Her bf bought for her as a surprise gift, but she'd been active on the board for a while, and obviously knew the whole puppy mill/pet store situation. So people started to freak on her, one after another - FOR 11 PAGES.

The thread was finally locked, and the woman made a new thread to defend all the accusations these people ended up throwing at her - like what her real name was, how long she was with her BF before deciding to get a puppy, and her financial status was also called into question. People said they weren't "buying her story". The whole thing started because the pup was sick, and she wanted advice on treatment - while admitting that it was from a store and she knew it was a "no no". When she didn't immediately agree to return the pup to the store, 85% of the board took turns jumping all over her. They all made the same argument, but the personal attacks grew more awful with each post.

It was rude, fanatical, and much more disturbing and offensive than a few ****s. I made a thread and said my peace, and I've never gone back. The thing is, I agree with the argument to stop abuse/puppy mills - but I DO NOT agree with how repetitive, unforgiving, and awful people get - nor the fact that really bad behavior is allowed, from members who "feel passionately" about an "issue" to a point where it turns EVERYONE off.

I will never go back to that board and read another snippet of info, because the store puppy argument that day was disgusting. It was totally acceptable to berate this woman by almost everyone, except maybe 3 people who quietly voiced how it would be hard to take the puppy back. Overall the thread was extremely intimidating.

This board seems to be a little more decent *so far* discussing the same issues. Not only do I disagree completely with Blueye's justification for buying a pup, she sounds arrogant and she threw a temper tantrum quite easily. HOWEVER, I think some of you who are most passionate about voicing yourselves on these issues, CAN go too far, even for the people who AGREE with you. And they could stop participating if the environment is just too hostile to swallow anymore.

Schwinn
July 1st, 2005, 11:29 AM
True, sarahandelivis, some people here do let thier passion get in the way. That being said, ol' Blue Eyes came in quite defensive before anyone had a chance to open thier yap. And I have to say, after reading this thread, the phrase "Me thinks thy lady doth protest thy innocence too much" comes to mind.

You keep saying how you were looking to save this puppy, not because it was cute. I guess I'd have two things to say about that. First, cool, you were able to diagnose her just by looking at her that she was sick. I've had a nagging shoulder injury in the gym. Can I send you a picture, or do you need to see me in person. Secondly, you stated:

All I know is that I saw an adorable, sweet looking puppy so I asked the attendant to take her out so I could spend some time with her and I fell inlove with her.

So that seems to refute that you did not buy her because she's cute. Or maybe she was a great conversationalist, I don't know. It does seem to question your assertion that you were trying to save her.

Also, you claim that what you did was so much better than getting a dog from a shelter. Let's see, you bought a dog from a pet store (ergo a puppy mill), and contributed $1000 to the cause, and allowed a space for a new puppy, causing more of a demand, thus giving the BYB to breed more puppies. You claim this is better than rescuing a dog from an over-crowded shelter (where they have to kill dogs to make room for new ones), thus opening up room for another unwanted animal to be rescued. Uh, okay.

I read all of your posts, and kudos to you for deciding to do something about BYBs. However, your arguement reeks or irony. You jumped on the pulpit accusing everyone of being on the pulpit against pet stores.

My favourite part is where you started arguing your education. Most times when people do that, they are losing the arguement. (Yea, well, uh, my brain is bigger than your brain!) First of all, because one can complete a degree is not necessarily a sign of overall intelligence. I dated a girl who had a 4.0 grade average, then a scholarship to Harvard. Outside of the lecture hall, she was as dumb as a bag of hammers in remedial class. I won't get into my various degrees and diplomas, but I will say that I have attended (and completed) more than one level of post-secondary education, and the higher the level, the only difference I noticed was the more elaborate the stupid things people would say. I too studied psychology, and the one constant I noticed among those who were majoring in it was that they seemed to need a psychologist themselves. Perhaps your thesis will double as an autobiography?

You say you won't be back, and that is good. I've often been dismayed (and voiced my opinion about) the way people have been chased away here. But that being said, you came in on the aggressive defensive about buying the "adorable, sweet loving" puppy you fell in love with and bought. Oh, and as for lowering yourself to everyone else's level, you are the only one who had to censor themselves for speaking s***.

Writing4Fun
July 1st, 2005, 12:33 PM
Well done, Schwinn!http://www.discodelic.netfirms.com/happy-applause1.gif

Luba
July 1st, 2005, 12:36 PM
Take a bow take a bow!!!

Cactus Flower
July 1st, 2005, 02:19 PM
Well, when I started reading this thread, I highlighted and copied a post so I could applaud it in my reply.

Then I read another post, and highlighted/copied it, so I could applaud it in my reply.

Then I read yet another, and highlighted/copied it, so I could applaud it.......

Now I can't remember everyone I was going to applaud. There are far too many!

Bravo, folks! BRAVO!!!!!!!!!

Safyre
July 1st, 2005, 06:04 PM
I gave up trying to read all the responses.

I understand where the OP is comming from.
Would ANY of you want to see a puppy in a pet store DIE, when you KNOW you can save it? Would you want it to die in its lil box at the pet store?

Look at it from that perspective.
Its either saving one by one, or going directly after the puppy mill.

I'm not saying I myself would do it this way, I'm just saying I understand where the OP is comming from.

Mom_Of_Two_Dogs
July 1st, 2005, 06:06 PM
I have nothing against mixed breeds, some of the best dogs I work with at the SPCA are mixed breeds. However, I *DO* have a problem with people breeding mixed breed dogs when there are so many in need of homes. I've heard a lot of different reasons for people wanting to breed mixed breeds. Hybrid vigor being one of them. There is a beautiful Rottie mix in foster care that has moderate to severe hip dysplasisa, so yes, they can get the same diseases that purebred ones can get.

95% or so dogs out there should never be bred. The only reason a dog should be bred is to improve a breed, not to create fads or wads of money.

Karin
July 1st, 2005, 06:15 PM
Gee Schwinn, you left me speechless! (good job!)

I wanted to comment earlier but (1), did not have the time. And (2), did not have the time because I still cannot sit to long at the computer.

I'm gonna add my .02 cents anyway concerning pets only.

You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.
Buying an animal from a pet store feeds the problem, another one will take it's place before it's cage gets cold. By buying from a pet store you created a demand...keeping byb's in business.

One line I have always hated but it is so very true, "you can't save them all."
What sets us apart from other boards and people is we try to save them all, sometimes we feel like we are banging our heads against the wall but we still do it. Anyone who does not like it. Tough, deal with it.

levimh
July 1st, 2005, 06:57 PM
Everyone has made such good points, including yourself, BEV8. You say you bought this little puppy and "with her" you can show the public/media that Pet Stores are bad for buying puppies because all you will get is a sick puppy. Okay, good point. Makes sense.

Now, how about 2500 people go out and thinking the exact same way. "I'm saving this one, sick puppy!! I'm going to boycott against pet stores and tell the world about puppy mills!!" Well, those 2500 just put $2500000 into a puppy mills pocket and therefore creating millions more puppies to refill those pet stores.

If you do so many rescues, why on earth would you even think about taking this puppy out of the cage?! I've done a couple rescues myself (nothing compared to others on here) and I will admit, I go into pet stores. I look at the cute puppies and kitties, but never in my life would I actually pay $1000PLUS for a puppy that's most likely going to be sick and support those awful puppy mills.

Here, check this site out: http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=charlize-theron-pupply-mill
Look into the eyes of the mother dogs and say "I just bought a puppy, so you can live in these horrible conditions and produce more sick puppies."

Lissa
July 1st, 2005, 07:15 PM
levimh: I ended up watching that clip myself. Of course, I was in tears. I've read and heard about puppy mills but those images are worse then I ever imagined. It's absolutely terrible.
Melissa

amber416
July 1st, 2005, 07:27 PM
Look at it from that perspective.
Its either saving one by one, or going directly after the puppy mill.

I'm not saying I myself would do it this way, I'm just saying I understand where the OP is comming from.


Well i don't think anyone was confused about where the OP was coming from, she explained it herself. I understand where she's coming from too, and it's a very uneducated place. People need to take more responsibility in educating themselves...ignorance is not a very legitimate "perspective", in my opinion, if that makes any sense.

Safyre
July 1st, 2005, 09:32 PM
OK, not sure how to take your post there Amber, *I* was just saying that the perspective that alot of the users have here, is very limited, I suggested looking at it from a different perspective of; lets not allow a puppy to die infront of us.
I still contend that most ppl here, that love animals, would have difficulty seeing a dying pup in a store and NOT save it.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
July 1st, 2005, 09:56 PM
My husband took us into a petstore a few weeks ago. I wasn't aware they had puppies, actually I didn't even know the store existed . I was going to go ask the salesclerk about them. Not with the intention to buy, but to ask where the dogs came from. They did not look well and both just layed there. No one was allowed to touch them and they were in a glass aquarium. Sad but better conditions then their parents I am sure. My husband did not want me to say anything but if I am ever in one of those petstores that sell those dogs again. I am going to ask them why they are selling these animals that are often sick, and why they are supporting these businesses. I know I didn't walk out with a puppy but its sad to think that someone probably did.

The Peta video was very sad, its hard to imagine anyone could be so money hungry to subject those poor dogs to those conditions.

pags
July 1st, 2005, 09:58 PM
I still contend that most ppl here, that love animals, would have difficulty seeing a dying pup in a store and NOT save it.

I think you're probably right about this, Saf. It's why I don't go to stores that sell animals anymore. I honestly totally understand why the OP bought the puppy. I don't think too many of us here don't understand why she bought the puppy... I don't blame her. I'm sure she loves her puppy and will take fantastic care of the little thing... I don't think that's really the issue at all.

The issue was that the OP was defining her idea of some strange personal activism which she then told us all to apply to ourselves - else we are all lazy and hypocritical. It is my understanding that what she was saying we should do is "rescue" the animals by purchasing them and then take on the stores legally or otherwise. Most of the posts in answer were simply trying to explain that purchasing the dogs will not be effective in the long run -- big business profits tend to overpower legal risk costs. However, if she had ever gotten past accusing us of being bigots and hypocrits.. I myself would have probably posted that of course anyone who DID impulse buy a puppy at a pet store should CERTAINLY band together with others and raise a huge ruckus with anyone and everyone who would listen. But, alas, we never got to the point of real discussion in this thread.

It's a shame too because it's certainly an issue which should be discussed -- and not bogged down in irrelevant banter about who's the bigger, better animal lover.

Safyre
July 1st, 2005, 10:20 PM
*sighs* thank you pags, you understood what I was trying to say.

I agree that this would make a good discussion, but there are very passionat ppl on this website, which is great for animals, not so great for conversations :(

pags
July 1st, 2005, 10:53 PM
I agree that this would make a good discussion, but there are very passionat ppl on this website, which is great for animals, not so great for conversations :(

LOL!!! Very true - very true. I could see something like that on a bumper sticker. :D

amber416
July 2nd, 2005, 01:31 AM
[QUOTE=Safyre]OK, not sure how to take your post there AmberQUOTE]

lol, yeah...i didn't really think you would, probably shouldn't have submitted it, sorry. I do get what you were saying, no sighing needed, i just don't necessarily feel the same way. I think saying the dog was dying in front of her was probably a bit of a stretch....or a lot of a stretch. I don't think most of the people on here are given enough credit....passion does not mean a person cannot have a logical, intelligent debate...i've seen it done here many times. Unfortunately, this particular thread was immediately clogged with direct insults and hyper-defensive rants, and probably could never have facilitated a real debate. Besides, it's hard to get an actual point out of a mess of s****'s.

Safyre
July 2nd, 2005, 02:02 AM
the sighing wasn't in a sarcastic way at all, just exsasperated (sp? lol). The tone was weird on your post so i wasn't sure if you were being argumentative or what. No worres, some of my posts read the same ways.
I dunno if the animal was dying, I doubt it was *DYING* infront of her, but if you can see that the animal is very ill (lethargic, dry eyes, malnourished) you know what I am saying.
Its 2 am, I'm going to bed lol

Sneaky2006
July 2nd, 2005, 02:05 AM
Enamel... haha! Good one. :D
Is it time for bed?

How many enamels do you have anyway??

Safyre
July 2nd, 2005, 02:07 AM
it was time for bed at least 3 hours ago
i'm on labour watch.

Sneaky2006
July 2nd, 2005, 02:08 AM
****************

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 02:11 AM
I have been watching this post from the beginning, and it really saddens me. I have found over the years the best way to educate in regards to mills is not to "beat up" on the public for not knowing, but rather educate them in a kinder way.

How? Take them to a mill. Show them through. Instead of telling them the how's and the what's, show them, show them with their own eyes.

I have taken several people through a mill, and all the way home they say, "I just can't believe what I just seen".

I have been down the road of getting disgusted at people for not "knowing". Getting frustrated with them doesn't work. Showing them vidoes doesn't really hit home with them either. But showing them with their own eyes does.

I know your probably thinking, "but who has the time?". Well, I can say that by every one person you show through a mill, you can be guaranteed they are going to tell every one of their friends what they saw. They are going to tell their neighbours and co-workers and releatives. They will not stop talking about it for weeks. So by taking one person, you are educating many.

Just my opinion.

www.canadanopuppymills.com
www.kismutt.com

Lucky Rescue
July 2nd, 2005, 09:04 AM
Take them to a mill. Show them through

Puppy mills are on private property, some are even in a person's home in the case of toy breeds, and they certainly will not allow tours to go through them.

Many of them will not allow even buyers on their property but rather meet them somewhere.

Anyone buying a puppy from a mill directly, or through a petstore is agreeing with, condoning and encouraging animal abuse by rewarding the abusers.

That's all it comes down to.

Mockingcat
July 2nd, 2005, 09:12 AM
I have been watching this post from the beginning, and it really saddens me. I have found over the years the best way to educate in regards to mills is not to "beat up" on the public for not knowing, but rather educate them in a kinder way.

I think what got everyone's goat was the fact that the first thing she said was that she knew how bad puppy mills were. I'd never get so upset at someone who bought an animal from a petstore without knowing. Hell, I did! My guinea pigs came from the Petsmart (and boy am I paying for it in vet bills).

What really riled people were her accusations that everyone not dropping $1000 for a sickly pet store puppy were "slacktivists", so to speak, who weren't really accomplishing anything. I don't know about the others here, but I work very hard with rescues to help animals find homes. I cry over these animals when their owners don't or won't, to let them know that they're loved. And for someone to come along and tell me that I'm wrong and what I'm doing isn't working really riles me up, especially since I know even more people on this board give more time than I do! :grouphug:

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 10:48 AM
I think what got everyone's goat was the fact that the first thing she said was that she knew how bad puppy mills were.).

I agree 100% with you. My first thought is, "no she does not really know how bad puppymills are or she would never have bought it". She has heard the stories, but she has not smelled, heard, or seen one.

I'd never get so upset at someone who bought an animal from a petstore without knowing. Hell, I did! My guinea pigs came from the Petsmart (and boy am I paying for it in vet bills).

I bought a LWD from a puppymill in 1983. 8 months later on my local news they were showing the place I bought my LWD. Animal Cruelty Officers carrying out dogs, the cages, and the filth. Keeping these mills "under the thumb" has been my passion ever since.

What really riled people were her accusations that everyone not dropping $1000 for a sickly pet store puppy were "slacktivists", so to speak, who weren't really accomplishing anything. I don't know about the others here, but I work very hard with rescues to help animals find homes. I cry over these animals when their owners don't or won't, to let them know that they're loved. And for someone to come along and tell me that I'm wrong and what I'm doing isn't working really riles me up, especially since I know even more people on this board give more time than I do! :grouphug:

I agree with you, really. The original poster sounded like a neighbour of mine. 3 years ago she paid 1400.00 for a pug, knowing full well where petstore puppies come from. She has read my articles in newspapers, and would comment on them, yet she bought a pug from a petstore.

I invited her several times to come with me to a mill. She was always "too busy". Finally, 2 yrs. ago, I asked her if she wanted to have lunch, and do some antique shopping in St. Jacobs (mennonite country). I told her I first had to stop to do a "visit". She accepted happily because of the shopping. We did the visit. She has not stopped talking about it since, and now volunteer's her time in the way of typing, and database work etc.

Sometimes it's better to befriend these people and educate them with first hand experiences.

Thats all I am trying to say.

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 10:56 AM
Puppy mills are on private property, some are even in a person's home in the case of toy breeds, and they certainly will not allow tours to go through them.

And many of them are under court orders. Which means, they can visited at any time without warning. Ontario has much better laws that Quebec.

Lucky Rescue
July 2nd, 2005, 11:09 AM
Which means, they can visited at any time without warning.

Yes, by the authorities, not the general public. Just as I do not have to allow private citizens to walk through my home, neither do they. Not even in Ontario.

Luba
July 2nd, 2005, 11:47 AM
Ditto LR

Kismutt to where or from where did you obtain permission to do a walk about through a mill and bring along site seeking individuals?

NO court order allowing access for reason of warrant allows that not in Ontario, not anywhere.

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 12:10 PM
O.K. you win. Your right. I am wrong. :)

Joey.E.CockersMommy
July 2nd, 2005, 12:24 PM
For me just seeing pictures and video clips of puppymills is enough that I would never walk out of a petstore with a puppy. I think if I would actually have an opportunity to ever walk through one it would reinforce it even more.I know one person that bought a petstore puppy her logic was that she bought it off of the truck before it got into the petstore therefore saving it from the petstore enviornment, she probably didn't realise that she still was supporting the actual mill buy purchasing the dogs. The dog now has a mulitude of problems.

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 12:38 PM
[QUOTE=researchbulls]For me just seeing pictures and video clips of puppymills is enough that I would never walk out of a petstore with a puppy./QUOTE]

I am so glad, I wish everyone were like you :)

Here is Mom of petstore puppies. I have this little girl right now. Picture taken June 21, 2005 at my home. It is hard to tell in the picture, but she is hairless all on her back and hind legs. Her uterus and vulva are massive. We are waiting for her to finish her heat so she can be spayed. She will be for adoption.

Lucky Rescue
July 2nd, 2005, 02:17 PM
Anyone who still thinks buying pups at petstores is okay or is somehow "saving" them, take a look at the above pic and know that this horrendous abuse is exactly what you are financially supporting and condoning.

O.K. you win. Your right. I am wrong

I'm not trying to "win". I just don't want anyone reading this to think they can go strolling unto private property to check out puppymills. Besides being illegal, it could even be dangerous, since puppymillers aren't exactly the most ethical, decent or compassionate people out there.

Cactus Flower
July 2nd, 2005, 03:14 PM
Kismutt, I really am curious about how to follow your advice. How do you bring someone on a tour through a puppy mill? Do you pretend to be a potential buyer? I thought that's what you meant, until you mentioned the court order.
If a puppy mill is court ordered to allow visits at any time, does that mean they must allow visits from the public? I would think they'd clean up their act, if they knew that anyone at any time could stroll through their mill. But I still don't understand how they could be ordered to allow that from anyone.
If I wanted to educate someone by walking them through a puppy mill, the only way I could do that would be to find one out here, then pretend to be a potential buyer, and get the person I'm taking to play along.
Could you please clarify what you meant/how to accomplish the tour?

Joey.E.CockersMommy
July 2nd, 2005, 03:16 PM
I hope the dog in the picture has a better life from now on . Does she have a name?

Luba
July 2nd, 2005, 03:24 PM
If a puppy mill is court ordered to allow visits at any time, does that mean they must allow visits from the public?

CF the answer is no, pls look up at LR and my posts above.

I'm not sure how or if Kismutt did take anyone through these mills but if she did she should be extremely careful. Not only illegal to trespass but also most of these individuals are not upstanding character...you could put yourself in a dangerous situation. Esp since the mills are in the country, a far cry for help.



edited to add:
LOL didn't read your last post LR until I sent mine in.....stop reading my mind!

Cactus Flower
July 2nd, 2005, 03:40 PM
I read all of the posts. I'm just trying to find out how Kismutt does this, or suggests that we do this. And what the court order is all about. Maybe I'm missing something that can be filled in.

And regarding what I said about pretending to be a potential buyer- Thinking back, I'm sure I've seen Lucky post in other threads that puppymillers won't let you tour the facilities. So I suppose that idea is shot down.

Oh! I just thought of something! Maybe Kismutt pretends to be an "authority" who is allowed (by the court) to tour the facility :eek: ??!!

Or maybe Kismutt IS one of those authorities?

So you either have to BE a court authority or pretend to be one?

Kismutt, I'm so confused! Please explain.

mona_b
July 2nd, 2005, 03:57 PM
Exactly what Luba and LR said about the puppymills.

I'm not so sure where this court order thing came in.When a puppymill is raided,ALL dog/pups are taken off the property right away,and the owner/s charged.This is done by the SPCA.Here in Ontario,the SPCA has the same authority as the Police to lay charges.The dogs/pups are then inspected by the vets.Some make it,unfortunately some don't.Those who get a clean bill of health,which means shots,dewormed,s/n,are then put up for adoption.

CK,does this help a bit????

Cactus Flower
July 2nd, 2005, 04:09 PM
Mona!!! :grouphug:
Haven't seen you on board lately. I missed you!

Yes, it does help to know exactly what happens when a puppy mill is raided, and what authority the SPCA has. Thank you!

(P.S....I think you meant CF ;) ).

Luba
July 2nd, 2005, 04:11 PM
Actually in some / many cases they only remove the animals who are in crowded conditions or are ill. They do and have left many behind :(

It's happened even here in T.O several times and in Durham region as well.

CF no way to 'tour' a mill and unless you are under jurisdiction by warrant to be there you ought not to be.

I completely understand what u r saying.

mona_b
July 2nd, 2005, 04:26 PM
Awwwww thank you CF

Ummmmm sorry bout that...My bad...LOL.

So you see that these "court" orders are ONLY for the SPCA....And don't think that you can get away with pretending to be the SPCA.It doesn't work that way.

And sorry,but there is no way you can take a "tour" of a puppy mill....It just doesn't happen.

Cactus Flower
July 2nd, 2005, 04:34 PM
Ok, well thank you again Mona (and Luba).

I was seriously confused there for a moment. I kept thinking that there was something I was missing as to how to do that. "Why else would Kismutt post that story about taking her friend through the mill?". "Why would she recommend that we do this if it can't be done?". Those sorts of questions were nagging at me, making me think that she just needed to explain more. And not knowing anything about the legalities or the process myself, I felt really naive.

So! I'll stop scratching my head now! LOL.

Luba
July 2nd, 2005, 05:03 PM
I'm sure you don't have lice so stop scratching. :p

Spurby
July 2nd, 2005, 08:16 PM
How? Take them to a mill. Show them through. Instead of telling them the how's and the what's, show them, show them with their own eyes.

I never knew that we could do this, never thought the millers would want the public to see the conditions of their kennels! This would have a much better effect on people than pictures do!



Can you take my friend to one? She wants to buy one from a petstore, even after i told her all the horrors of them and showed her the pictures..she wants to "save" one :sad: She really needs to see the truth, anyway you can take her to one? Or give us addresses to these puppymills so i can take her?

Rottielover
July 2nd, 2005, 09:05 PM
OMG...the tears after watching that video....You always hear about the horror stories, but you never actually see it. If anyone watches that video and still goes out and purchesses a puppy from a petstore. they have no compassion. I am sad to say I live in Canada's puppymill capital. I wish more can be done to shut them down :sad:

Luba
July 2nd, 2005, 09:08 PM
Spurby are you sure you really want to go and take your friend...I mean it's not like going to the movies and getting popcorn.

:p

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 09:27 PM
I hope the dog in the picture has a better life from now on . Does she have a name?

Thank you. My teenage son (you know teenagers), he has a name for her, but I prefer to call her "sweety". She has discovered that going through Tim Horton's render's her a timbit :)

I just took a better picture of her. Her hair is actually grown a lot in the last week. I have been rubbing vitamin E cream on her. Is anyone on this forum into the natural herbs and creams? Any suggestions besides pure vitamin E cream?

Luba
July 2nd, 2005, 09:30 PM
It would be better to give flax oil and fish oil orally injested (added in food)

Topically the vit e will temporarily soothe you can also try pure aloe vera gel which u can get at any health food store.

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 09:38 PM
Here is another pm dog. She is blind in one eye, and has ulcers on the other. And yes, she is fat. Very low thyroid problems. She spent 5 years in a small kennel. She has many many quirks. All her meds. combined are about 112.00 a month. She was virtually unadoptable. She is a permanent foster.

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 09:42 PM
It would be better to give flax oil and fish oil orally injested (added in food)
Topically the vit e will temporarily soothe you can also try pure aloe vera gel which u can get at any health food store.

I will try that. Thank you. If it works, I will post her after picture :)

Luba
July 2nd, 2005, 09:58 PM
Oh it will work :D

Ask her if she likes Sardines? That will help her coat as well, and eyes and over all immune system.

The other one is a real cutie...I would not say unadoptable at all! :D
I've seen much much worse get loving homes!!

There's a home for you somewhere pup

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 10:00 PM
This Labra-Doodle was a basket case. Really a basket case. He came a long way in 5 weeks after being seized from the mill. He has been adopted, and will be featured in the fall newsletter of the OSPCA. You can watch for his story. I cannot give address out. But I am telling you, I was at the mill he came from. Just as "Joe Blow" off the street looking to "purchase". I was given a royal tour of the entire mill. And they were proud of their facility :yuck:

http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4331216&adTarget=&SessionID=42c746026f341f71-app4&display=&preview=1&row=0&tmpl=petlistx.html&stat=X

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 10:09 PM
Oh it will work :D

Ask her if she likes Sardines? That will help her coat as well, and eyes and over all immune system.

The other one is a real cutie...I would not say unadoptable at all! :D
I've seen much much worse get loving homes!!

There's a home for you somewhere pup

I do have flax seed I feed to the horses. I will grind it up and try some on her food. I will get some fish oil on Monday. Thank you for the suggestions. I don't know if I could stand the smell of sardines :yuck:

Luba
July 2nd, 2005, 10:26 PM
Flax seed OIL :D a little ground flax seed itself is good for the pooper LOL

Canned salmon then instead of sardines will work as well !

Kismutt
July 2nd, 2005, 11:04 PM
Spurby are you sure you really want to go and take your friend...I mean it's not like going to the movies and getting popcorn. :p

To the original poster. Here is my documentation from a mill I visited. This will give you an idea of why not to buy from pet stores or the classifieds.

Date Visited: December 19, 2004 - approx. 91 dogs
XXXX & XXXXXX XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX XXXXXX Rd.
XXXXXX, Ontario
XXX-XXX-XXXX

Pig Farmers
Dog Breeders
White Ranch Style House - 1 Red Barn (dogs) + 1 long Pig Barn

Dog Barn:
Stall type kennels - white plastic walls and doors - cement floors - bedding shavings - stainless steel pig watering system - commercial kennel dog feeders - barn not heated - a row against each wall and one centre row - heating lamps in puppies and nursing mother's stalls

Cleanlines scale (1 poorest 10 very clean) rate : 5

List of Dogs:

Siberian Huskies (7 Breeding Adults - 5 Breeding Females + 2 Males) (3 litters of pure pups)
Choc. Labs (7 Breeding Adults- 5 Females + 2 Males) (2 litters of pure lab pups)

Golden Labs (5 Breeding Adults - 4 females + 1 male) (2 litters of pure pups)

Golden-Poos (1 Breeding Adult Male) ( 3 litters of golden-poo pups)

Standard Poodle (1 Breeding Adult Male)

Choc. Labra-Poos (1 litter of 9 pups)

Chow Chow and Standard Poodle in together - **Chow Chow in heat*

Beagle-Pugs (2 litters of 6 and 7 puppies) **Note**No Breeding Beagle Adults on site!

Beagle-Bostons (1 litter of 6) **Note** No Beagle Breeding Adults on site!

Smooth Coated Collie (1 Adult Pregnant Female)

Schnauzer-Poo (1 Adult Pregnant Female)

Shiz Tzu (4 Breeding Females + 2 Breeding Males) (1 litter of 6 pure Shih Tzu puppies)

Shiz Tzu-Poo (1 Breeding Female with 5 puppies)

Min Pin (2 Breeding Females+ 1 Min Pin Male) (1 litter of 4 Min Pin puppies)

Toy Fox Terriers (1 Pregnant Female)

Dachshunds ( 1 Adult Female Preg.??? 1 Adult Male) (they are in together) one is a smooth coat black/tan female the other is a long haired blue merill male

Basset Hound (3 Breeding Females + 2 Breeding Males) (no litters at present) (1 Female and Male in together)

Boston Terrier (1 Breeding Female - pregnant ?? )

Norwegian Elkhound (1 Breeding Female....Preg.???? )

English Bull Dog (1 Breeding Female Pregnant and 1 Breeding male (2yrs. old)

**Notes**N. Elkhound is in distress. Raw hind quarters, torn ears, swollen eye - cowering in back of stall, shivering. "XXXXX" said her *large* choc. lab 'chewed her up'. Looks like mange on her hind quarters (she was pulling hair out of her sides)

**Notes**Dachshund. Long haired blue merril male - quite matted around his throat and ears. I picked him up and touched his ears - he really flinches when his ears are touched. Very cold and shivering. Stall was soaked with urine. Several days worth of feces in stall. Smooth coated black and tan female in with him. She was shivering violently. Limping on hind leg. Running eyes.

**Note**Min Pin - Male Breeder - very thin - very weak in his hind quarters - shivering violently and cowering. Filthy. Covered in dander.

**Note** - Male Choc. Lab in center row on the North side second last stall - between golden retriever females -appears to have mange....balding spots around his tail and under his chest area - covered in dander.

**Note** Schnauzer-Poo - balding spots - very dirty - shivering violently - weak in hind quarters.

**Note** Shih Tzu - the female that "XXXXXX" calls a purebred (if this dogs a purebred I'm Mary Poppins) nursing her own pups PLUS 4 Min Pin Puppies (says the female Min Pin has no milk) this Shih Tzu mom is very thin and stressed. Her own pups are 5 weeks old. The Min Pin puppies she is nursing are 4 weeks old. One of her own puppies is *half* the size of her other own pups - pup is very weak, cannot walk on it's own - definately in immediate distress - it will probably die soon.

**Note** shavings were very sparce on the cement floors in all stalls. Some stalls were worse than others with urine and feces. I noticed 3 feeders that were empty of food. Could not tell if water pipe drinking spouts were working or not.

Spurby
July 3rd, 2005, 12:40 AM
These poor dogs..this is so sad.

I can see that, but like you recommended, many should walk through these puppymills to see just what they are all about, can you tell us how to do this? Since this is what you claim to be the best thing to do, i really want to show my friend the horrors, even though i know it would haunt me forever. Let me know, thanks.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
July 3rd, 2005, 12:45 AM
When I was young I used to beg my mom to buy me the petstore dog. But she flat out refused and told me that she would never get me a petstore dog as they were usually sick. Not sure if they had puppymills 30 years ago, but all this discussion brings back those memories for me. At the time I never understood why it was so wrong to get one of those dogs.

Kismutt
July 3rd, 2005, 12:50 AM
These poor dogs..this is so sad.

I can see that, but like you recommended, many should walk through these puppymills to see just what they are all about, can you tell us how to do this? Since this is what you claim to be the best thing to do, i really want to show my friend the horrors, even though i know it would haunt me forever. Let me know, thanks.

I pm'd you.

Kismutt
July 3rd, 2005, 01:08 AM
When I was young I used to beg my mom to buy me the petstore dog. But she flat out refused and told me that she would never get me a petstore dog as they were usually sick. Not sure if they had puppymills 30 years ago, but all this discussion brings back those memories for me. At the time I never understood why it was so wrong to get one of those dogs.

Your Mom was a very smart Lady, and ahead of her time :thumbs up

Cactus Flower
July 3rd, 2005, 01:22 AM
Now Kismutt, you publicly stated that giving people a tour of a puppy mill is the best way to educate people, and urged us to do just that- but you have yet to publicly explain how you managed to do this, or how you suggest we do this.
I don't know why you are ignoring the questions I have posted for you previously. So I ask again- could you please support your assertion by explaining how you pulled this off, or at least, how you want us to pull this off? Since it has already been confirmed that only an authority can tour a puppymill under a court order, I am very eager to read your response. Were you acting as a "Joe Blow", as you put it, each time, and just took a friend? And are all of the puppy mills you've toured eager to show their facilities?

Kismutt
July 3rd, 2005, 01:56 AM
Were you acting as a "Joe Blow", as you put it, each time, and just took a friend?

Cactus - To your above question. Yes.

And are all of the puppy mills you've toured eager to show their facilities?

No not all. As I told spurby, it is hit and miss.


However, there are other ways to go learn about puppymills. Nothing is stopping you from volunteering your time with your local animal cruelty officers. They are run off their feet, and appreciate reliable volunteers. Start off by volunteering in your local shelter, get to know the laws, and learn, learn, learn. Once they get to know you well, ask if you can volunteer with them.

It's way past bedtime. I am taking my p.m. hairless pooch and crouchy girl to bed. Good night all. :grouphug:

Cactus Flower
July 3rd, 2005, 02:35 AM
Thank you for answering my questions.

I guess when you mentioned viewing those mills under "court order", you meant going in with the officials that you work with as a volunteer. Makes sense (but then, you couldn't take a friend with you to show them what it's like in there :( ).

Ack- I leave the animal shelter fighting tears every time. I can't imagine how I'd get through taking tours of puppy mills (if they'd even let me see the facilities). I'd be a basket case, and ruin my whole "Joe Blow" cover. No academy award for me!

doggy lover
July 7th, 2005, 10:16 AM
Kismutt you are a dogs guardian :angel: I don't think I could do what you do. Just reading about all those puppies made me cry, and what about all the parents that have never been allowed to play, run or have someone to love them. I see you had notes that no beagle adult was there does that mean that maybe the mother had passed having the babies? This reminds me of a livestock farm not a place where dogs are being breed to give us loving pets.

Buying a petstore pup just makes room for more to be born into this type of horror, and to buy on a spur of the moment, what happens when the dog doesn't turn into what you wanted, off to the animal shelter with it.

I've had both mixed and purebred, I have loved them all the same. Tucker my BC I got from a breeder with only one breeding female, I met both of his parents and the pups were kept in the livingroom so they were in constant human contact. I picked Tucker when he was a week old and his mother looked and acted like she had never had pups, she was a beautiful healthy dog. When I go to petstores and see the puppies it breakes my heart to think of what the parents are going through.

CyberKitten
July 7th, 2005, 04:45 PM
Congrats on your new puppy!

I don't want to get in a long winded debate on this - we have been there and done that on this Board and rehashing it all serves no useful purpose. I am just curious why someone who understands the world of dog rescue (you said you had fostered dogs or helped dogs from a rescue, something like that...) would even consider buying any kind of dog from a pet store, never mind the breed or the fact you purchased an unrecognized breed like one of the doodles, puggles, whatever. (As you know, they cannot be registered by the various dog orgs. tho I understand you just want him as a pet and you love him...). We all know sadly where pet stores obtain their puppies and many of us have done everything within our power to put these puppy mills out of business. Why, knowing that, would you give them business? I am thrilled this dog has a good home and I hope it turns out he won't have too many health problems like so many uninformed people who do the same thing you did. I guess I am just perplexed by your actions - knowing what you do about puppy mills, it makes no sense for you to support them in that way. you can report that store all you like. It will only go out of business - or at least out of business of serving as a reseller for those horrid places - when no one buys puppies there. You can report it all you like to whatever govt agency,m Better Business Bureau, SPCA, etc. The only proven thing is not to support them financially.

That's all i am saying. I hope you enjoy your dog but please don't expect me to congratulate you for supporting puppy mills because it would make me a hippocrite.

Prin
July 7th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Wow Kismutt, that's a pretty scary list. :eek: :sad:

Kismutt
July 7th, 2005, 05:25 PM
I see you had notes that no beagle adult was there does that mean that maybe the mother had passed having the babies?.

I guess that is a possibility doggy lover. My head tells me that there is a *second location* of breeding adults. Finding the second location is the focus now. :fingerscr

melanie
July 7th, 2005, 06:32 PM
lol, you ppl crack me up. god yo ucantalk, wht a bunch of haveachats ay?? i was here yesterday and you have had this wholechat over night, wow im impressed :D :p seriously you ppl could solve the owrlds problems in one sitting if you tried, im not teasing here, boy if we directed ourselves we oculd acheive sooo much...

schwinn, your a riot, yes the more degrees i get the more convoluted and detailed my stupidity seems to be, see like this, lol lol lol....

supply = demand, if you buy a puppy from a store you will only aid in the vicious circle.... its pretty simple and i would think anyone with half a brain could figure that one out.......

luba boy have your critics been harsh of late (i know how that feels) you know i love you my darlin :love: hugs and pats from me ok :grouphug:

your all a riot truly....

Kismutt
July 8th, 2005, 10:50 AM
When a puppymill is raided,ALL dog/pups are taken off the property right away,and the owner/s charged.

I wish this was true, but unfortunately it is not.


Actually in some / many cases they only remove the animals who are in crowded conditions or are ill. They do and have left many behind :(


This is correct.

When a breeder or mill is found to be in inadequate conditions, which is determined by an OSPCA Animal Cruelty Officer, a Veterinarian is immediately called to the premises. The Vet called is not an OSPCA vet, but rather an unbiased Vet (important come court time). Usually, whoever is on call and can be there the quickest.

The vet examines the dogs on site. ONLY the dogs that are deemed in *immediate distress* are removed from the property. The rest stay on the property. It is the attending vet that makes the call.

When the vet deems a dog in *immediate distress*, he has to be 100% confident on his call. Why? Because when he gets to court to testify, his 'reputation' and 'credibility' is on the line. The defense is going to try and make him look like an idiot. The defence is going to try and discredit his claim. He has to be able to prove without a doubt that the dog(s) he had removed were in *immediate distress*.

The dogs that are left behind are under orders by the OSPCA, which means, the owner *has* to do A,B,C and D for the remaining dogs. Visits are made very frequently and without warning by an inspector. An inspector can show up at anytime without warning, and by gosh, the owner's/operator's had better be "towing the line".

With the new laws of December 2002, *Life Time Bans* are now a reality. Life Time Bans come into effect when orders have not been followed and/or ignored.

The first puppymill to receive the Life Time Ban was in July last year (2004), in Tara, Ontario and was owned and operated by Karen McEwan.

doggy lover
July 8th, 2005, 11:00 AM
Is there not such things as limits to how many dogs you can have, even if you are regestered as a breeder there must be a limit.

Kismutt
July 8th, 2005, 11:25 AM
[QUOTE=doggy lover]Is there not such things as limits to how many dogs you can have, even if you are regestered as a breeder there must be a limit./QUOTE]

As long as they are operating with a kennel license there is no limit on how many dogs they can have, unfortunately.

However, when a breeder/miller has 30, 40, or 100 dogs, properly caring for these animals is a BIG job. You know yourself when you have 3 or 4 rescues in your home how much time it takes to properly look after them. I find it overwhelming at times when I have 3 or more fosters! It is alot of work! Personally, my max of dogs to foster at one time is 3, because I feel that the dogs would not get the proper attention they need if there were more.

So when these breeders/millers have many, many dogs to look after, the care of these dogs is minimal. Puppymills are not illegal, it is the conditions that they are kept in that is breaking the laws under C-22.

Even if they had 100 dogs, but they are abiding by all the conditions of the Canadian Kennel Code, they are doing nothing illegal.

Sneaky
July 19th, 2005, 03:40 PM
Personally,
I could never bring myself to spend 1000 dollars on a mutt, when I could spend that money on a purebred. Not saying purebreds are better, but when I can get a mutt for cheap/free at the spca or through a rescue, why would I want to spend 1000?
My Mom in law also bought a pet store puppy, 800 dollars for a bichon/shihtzu cross, and the little guy was sweet as pie, however, he had some emotional issues, including humping everything he could get his bum on, including my female chi, and ended up going to a new home with an elderly lady, unneutered, humping, not house trained, and free of charge.
Luckily the elderly lady fixed his problems, she neutered him and apparently he made a 100% turnaround. except with some emotional problems still. Im sure she made a great home for him. My Mother in law shouldnt have dogs but I cant talk her out of it. Luckily the yorkie she has has made it 4 months with her now, never would have thought she would keep one that long.
My Chi she bought from a BYB and didnt want her after 2 weeks.
Most people who buy pet store puppies do so on a whim, and the dogs usually suffer from it, ending up in pounds, shelters, and rescues to live their lives out. :-(

CyberKitten
July 19th, 2005, 04:48 PM
Gosh!!! I don't want to get into a debate (NOT today, sigh!) You all know my position on these so called designer breeds - I wish people would not get taken in by them but they do. And many are at good homes. The issue with that is you have no clue who the parents are, the mother is not titled, and all the rest of it. (I've written this a 100 times so you know what I am saying). This dog is in a good home and I am happy for you and your new dog. I also think that buying in a pet store just reinforces the millers and profits them because they will only continue doing what they are doing. Only when they have no sales will it end. These dogs have suffered and many people work on this daily!! I no longer go into pet stores that sell animals (I can't, it makes me too upset!) tho i sometimes will see the kittens in the one at the Penhorn Mall in Dartmouth,NS out in front of the store and there are who knows how many kids pointing at them and they look cute but you know there is likely a sib in the back room dying or very ill. Makes want to throw up, literally!

Re: COME ON PEOPLE STOP TALKING! START DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have no idea what I have done so please don't assume things about anyne. I make no assumptions about you. I do think you are young and have not read about the horrors of puppy and kitten mills and if you do, could not help yourself from buying this one.

Unfortunately, your purchase changes nothing - someone made a profit on that dog and s/he came into the world in God knows what kind of conditions. You are fortunate she is fine and I wish you well. You just cannot expect me to agree.

Dag Sabot
July 20th, 2005, 02:56 PM
Im really leery of posting here but, if you permit me:

Where does a college student scrape together 1K for a dog!? Ive obtained my shake-n-bake undergrad degree a few years ago even with the much appreciated help from parrents and funds from a summer job, i was hard pressed to buy books much less a luxury such as a $1,000 dog.
-If true youve excercised poor judgement IMO. Not to be "Rude" but animal shelters are bulging with dogs (yes and puppies too) in far more desperate in need of a home than your purchase. By buying from a petstore, youre creating demand for product which is supplied mosty by puppy mills, and cheap and unscrupulous breeders. In your misguided effort to "Rescue" a dog, you may have unwittingly contributed to the misery of a far larger group incarcerated and bred for the consumption of people like yourself. Something does not add up here...


*If any of you have taken offense, please accept my apology in advance. It is merely my opinion.

PS:Puppy mills breed sick dogs.

Beaglemom
July 20th, 2005, 03:11 PM
Dag Sabot, you'll find that on this board most people agree that you shouldn't buy from a pet store as you are contributing to the problem. By purchasing from a pet store you are indeed supporting puppy mills.

Prin
July 20th, 2005, 03:43 PM
I'm so offended by your implication that I would be offended by your statements about puppy mills. :p :D I agree with you.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
July 20th, 2005, 04:07 PM
= blue eyed violin
I was going to use that 1000$ to buy a used car (I'm a college student and don't have extra money to throw around) and instead I saved a puppy.


I think Dag Sabot was talking about the original poster in this forum that saved the petstore dog, it seems that the original poster is not around to continue in this thread unless of course I may have missed her posts. I would say everyone here is against puppymill dogs, there is the odd person that comes on here and buys one without knowing or thinking they are saving this dog, without realizing its the parents of the dog that need saving just as much or even more the pet store pup. :)

StaceyB
July 20th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Go back to that pet store and look at the sad little puppy that has just replaced yours. If there is always space to replace then you will continue to see new faces and this just won't stop.

happycats
July 20th, 2005, 04:20 PM
The OP is gone :D Probably just a troll :evil:

Prin
July 20th, 2005, 04:38 PM
The OP is gone :D Probably just a troll :evil:
Seriously, I don't know how we can't tell they are trolls. I mean how bad are we for not noticing them? I mean, really, people! Open your eyes!! Geez! They have FLUORESCENT hair for crying out loud! We should see them coming before they even register! :D :D

Dag Sabot
July 20th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Its really hard to hold back, troll or no troll when i hear of someone paying any amount of money for a petstore animal, just blows my mind... *boggle*

pags
July 20th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Its really hard to hold back, troll or no troll when i hear of someone paying any amount of money for a petstore animal, just blows my mind... *boggle*

Agreed, Dag. Especially when that person claims, as did the original poster here, that they are totally AWARE of what they are doing. This entire thread was just bizarre and there were a lot of contradictions coming from the OP. I agree again, Dag -- I was puzzled at the $1000 dog/college student thing.. Twenty bucks was a lot of money for me when I was a college student... $1000 for a dog. :confused:

I dunno. The story never added up. I honestly think this was nothing but a trolling expedition. And a real shame too because a lot of people got fired up over this thread and carried a lot of animosity into other threads... And well - the rest is history. If the OP intended to just stir things up -- she, unfortunately, was quite successful.