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Do Not Know What To Do!!!

Rottielover
June 28th, 2005, 02:57 PM
I need everybody's help here. I used to volunteer at rescue, and help new adoptees with behaviour with their new pets, used to foster for a couple different rescue groups. SO please do not make me out to be a bad person.
With my spca special rottie lab mix, I have been having problems with her since she was 8 months old. More or less when I found out I was pg. We did basic OB, and continued with her, but nothing seems to help with her fear. Trainers have stated that she might be wired wrong....My major concern is my BF, he loves her to death, but whatever he tries, she is unpredictable around him. One second lovey dovey, next second running to her cage in fear or peeing on the floor. Only time she NORMALLY feels safe if she is under me, or in her cage. BUT today she tried to lunge at him through the cage.
She is perfectly healthy, physically, mentally she is unstable. But with me I am her security blanket. I can not protect her from everyday noises, or my BF that she thinks is such a big monster. I have had her since she was 3 1/2 months, but in that time before, she was in 2 homes. I do not know what else to do, the vet suggested meds, but it will not help her fears which is the problem. And she also said that giving strong meds like that can do real damage to her liver, she did not reccomend. Now I was given 2 options, NONE that I ever thought I would have to do. Find a quiet home for her, with other animals, or as one trainer said, humanely euthanize her, her deamons are too strong for her to cope. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO. up to today I did not fear for my baby's safety, I also never thought she would growl and lunge from her cage......I want to do the best for her....I am not a cruel person....... I love my animals
__________________

lezzpezz
June 28th, 2005, 03:08 PM
Nobody is judging you as a cruel person. Of COURSE you love your animals....why else would you be reaching out and asking for help? Have you considered consulting with an animal behaviouralist? Try the yellow pages of the phone book or ask your vet if one can be recommended to you. It is wonderful that you are seeking options from the many knowledgeable folks on this site. I am sure that there will be numerous good ideas that come forth shortly. In the mean time, call your vet and look in the book.

angie79
June 28th, 2005, 03:13 PM
If you are afraid for your baby's sake, it is not safe to have the dog in the house with the baby. not sure how old your baby is but when the bay starts walking running, falling and the dog is unpredictable your going to have to do something then, but its not worth the risk.

It's really hard but you have to put your childs safety first.

Rottielover
June 28th, 2005, 03:17 PM
She has seen a behaviourist, they also think she might be wired wrong, may be better in a quieter home, but How can I let her go, seeing her playing in the baby pool in the back as nothing is wrong, then another min she is in the house cowering, and peeing.

angie79
June 28th, 2005, 03:21 PM
what exactly do they mean by "wired wrong".

Rottielover
June 28th, 2005, 03:27 PM
the vet said in some cases she has seen that from birth, there is a genetic defect. something like that. unstable. nothing you can do about but make there lives easier to cope. I got her from the spca when she was 3 1/2 months old, and very sick for 3 months, so I never guessed anything could be wrong. she had 2 homes before me. No idea why she was given up, most likely reg puppy things. I was so determined to make this the last home for her. But with her fear becoming worse, and more unstable, MY home is too much for her. I can not be with her 24/7 I have a 15 month old daughter. Angel loves by the way. I just think she needs more of a quieter home. I disagree with anyone telling me to put her down, she is a great dog, just very weak nerved. and POSSIBLY wired wrong. I did all that I could, and am still trying, but I am so tired, and MY BF is so upset. He can not even be in the same room with her, but outside is fine?????

Shamrock
June 28th, 2005, 05:18 PM
Rottielover, I'm sorry you are faced with such a heartwrenching situation.

How old is your girl now?
I certainly would not agree with the suggestion of putting her down,regardless of her age. She is healthy, and I think.. a young dog too.

If this is the first time she has exhibited the lunging behaviour today?
Could it be that she is not well, has an sore spot...or something else triggered this?

Is she your only pet?
How is she with other men?
Is the runing to the safety of her cage and peeing on the floor only as a reaction to him...or does she do this at other times too?

Are there any meds that can even be "tried" with her that will help with this issue? Maybe a second vet opinion on this option to confirm that there are not.
It sad that the vet, trainers and behaviourist have all offered a rather negative prognosis for any solution other than rehoming her. And of course a quiet home doesnt guarantee a solution either, depending on what is the root cause of this behaviour. If she is in fact "wired wrong" - it might take only the smallest thing to set her off....

It's a difficult and emotional issue which is sure to leave you feeilng very torn.
Of course you love your dog, and want only the best for her.
My heart goes out to you, and I wish you and your sweet girl the best outcome.

LL1
June 28th, 2005, 05:37 PM
Many rescues (actually many dogs)lunge or growl in a cage,its territory and their safe place.I wouldnt worry as she is not doing this outside the cage.

She does not sound unstable to me.She needs more socializing in my opinion,and you said 'I can not protect her from everyday noises, or my BF that she thinks is such a big monster.'You should not protect her from noises or your bf or scary things,she needs to become used to them not hidden or protected from them.

Lucky Rescue
June 28th, 2005, 07:11 PM
It's impossible for us to know, but some byb dogs are just temperamentally unstable, ("wired wrong*) and often all the love and kindness in the world cannot change temperament. She could have been given up in the past for this very thing - who knows?

If you feel this large and "unpredictable" dog is not safe to have around, please do not give her to someone else.

You live with her, and only you can know what the right thing is.

Rottielover
June 28th, 2005, 07:21 PM
To answer about the cage lunging, that was her first time, and she has never ever shown any signs of anything aggressive other than real fear. There is something about my BF that triggers it, I do not know what. He has never ever abused her, she was acting this way ( weak nerved ) before him. I am not worried about the aggressive nature, But I also do not think it is fair for her to constly be in fear in my home. She is an amazing dog. if the fear thing was not there. We do everything together, but I always have to be her security blanket. I am making another apt with a behaviourist. 2nd opinion
If she thinks she may do better in a quieter home. Could any of you nice people help me........ I love her, and only want the best for her and her sanity

LavenderRott
June 28th, 2005, 07:37 PM
I hate to say, I agree with LR. (Not because I never agree with LR or anything like that, but more because I know that is not what YOU want to hear.)

From the sounds of your OP, this dog has been socialized to the best of your (and her) ability and more then one trainer has suggested that this dog is weak-nerved.

While some might suggest that lunging in a crate is no cause for alarm, I know several very territorial dogs that NEVER lunge at people or animals when they are crated. They know that their crate is a safe place to be and feel no need to defend their area.

While rehoming into a quiet home would be wonderful, there are a couple of problems with this. Once the dog leaves your home, the new owner is under no obligation to do anything that they said they would do when they get the dog from you. Meaning - while they say that they will keep this dog forever - they might not be able to handle her either and decide to rehome her yet again. Or - they may just get mad at the dog for peeing on the floor for what they think is "no reason" and give her a spanking. Also, if she is truly weak-nerved, the aggression may well escalate and someone may get hurt.

I have put down a weak nerved dog and it was the hardest thing I have ever had to do. Yes, the dog was physically fine, but she had soooooo many issues that rehoming her was just not an option. The harder decision was to hold her in my arms while she left this world.

Luba
June 28th, 2005, 07:46 PM
She may have been abused by a man this is why she reacts to your bf this way.

To change this he could do positive interactions with her such as 'feeding' her and taking her for walks, playing with her by himself, without you around at first. Bonding with her and cuddling with her.

I don't know what she is like with treats and rewards but if your bf maybe came over one day with a pocket full (baggy full) of cut up steak in little pieces and gently fed them to her....initially tossing them in front of her then closer and closer to him, then finally taking from his hand...this may help.

She needs to hear SOFT spoken words from him telling her she is a good girl each time she takes one.

If he does this little task many times over he may just win over her heart. Every single time he comes to her he can do something beneficial like say something nice and soft to her 'good girl'

There doesn't need to be any direct physical bonding at first, just positive reassuring words.

When she starts to take the food from his hand then I'd say thats the time to put the leash on her and let him take her for a walk by himself, giving her some of that yummie steak along the way.

I think it's worth a try. Rehoming her may just make her worse, she needs stability. Sending her to 'another ' new environment may just send her to her death.

Please try some of these options.

IF you take her to obedience class let you bf go with you and observe, perhaps discuss the situation with the trainer and maybe they have some ideas after watching the interaction.

My dog can be timid and afraid, just her nature. Some people she's been known to shy from just a sense she has about them. BUT if its' someone I have at my house regularly we work it out.

:D

I think there is LOTS of hope here!! I agree with LL1

Also dogs react to what they perceive from us. If you and your bf argue in front of a dog thats sensitive this may be part of the problem.

Rottielover
June 28th, 2005, 07:48 PM
I am in tears reading this LR, I was just outside playing with her in the baby pool, and she was fine. How can you see a dog like that, and make this decision. I too had to do it once before, but the aggression was showing through, which made the decision alittle easier, seeing someone might get hurt. I do not know if I can do it again :o It is breaking my heart. I also do not need harley to pick up any of her weak nerves if that is possible. Is there anyone on this site that knows how to take care of a dog like her. I am just so exhausted......

DogueLover
June 28th, 2005, 07:48 PM
I am only writing this from my point of view and from my past experience.
I worked with a rotti that had "issues" from mistreatment towards her from a previous owner.
She had a fear of men, anyone in uniform, blonde women, she hated cats, she would be aggressive toward anyone who got in her space, but she was alright with me.
She didn`t like cowboy hats, ball caps, or any other type of gear on your head, sunglasses, ropes, brooms. She attacked my hairdryer, vaccuum, and any other appliance that made noise.
She wasn`t wired wrong, she had issues.

My hubby fell in love with her, but had to learn to understand her.

He wanted her to be his dog, and eventually she was, but it took almost 2 years before she trusted him enough to not fear him.

She was fine with people IF they let her come to them instead of them coming up to her. She had been abused severely and was unsure of human contact. I cannot blame her for being aggressive toward people, the only human contact she had ever had was abusive, I think I would be the same way if every time someone came up to me they hit me or beat me.

I wonder if your dog has some of the same issues going on with her. The rotti I worked with bit my husband 4 times before they came to the understanding that she wanted respect and he understood her fear. They were inseperable from that point on.

I would love to help you out with this dog and her issues, I truely think that she deserves to be given a chance.
You said that you have a small child and that would have me a bit on edge but I wonder if the dog has ever shown aggression toward the child. If she does this with your bf maybe there is a reason from her past why she distrusts him. I used to call those things "triggers" for the dog I worked with.

If you would like to discuss this further and get some ideas to try with this dog pm me and I`ll be glad to help you out.

"You don`t throw someone out just because they are banged up a little" __ one of my favorite lines from Seabiscuit.

Rottielover
June 28th, 2005, 07:51 PM
He has tried doing everything with her. Feeding her and so on, just makes her more unstable. OB class too. we never fight in front of the dogs, and there is rarely tension. As I said, it has been escalating, instead of getting better, and more randomly.

Luba
June 28th, 2005, 07:58 PM
Your home needs to have a calmness about it which will carry through to the dog. Forcing her to do everything all at once can be too challenging for her, esp when she is nervous.

It's like desensitizing someone who has a fear of heights, you wouldn't tell them to get on a roller coaster right off would ya? NOPE

One little step at a time, and stay at the step until the dog is comfortable. Do NOT rush this, I think that is maybe what you've been doing ..forcing it too fast.

Back up slow down and take it easy!

My dog is very nervous and timid with unusual things, weirdo things. She used to jump at my face and claw at me if I made weird noises with my mouth or blew bubbles or chewed gum.

If I raised my voice if even to call to someone in the next room she'd jump on top of me and lean her whole body onto my face.

Trust me, I know what it's like and it CAN be worked out!!

Like I said, calm it down, tone it down and let things relax.

Does your bf live with you or just come to visit? How often?

Toonces
June 28th, 2005, 08:06 PM
I agree with Dogue. I am a foster for GSRT and we have had many fearful dogs in our rescue, and I know it was posted but I wanna say it again. Nobody has any idea what happened with this poor dog. That breaks my heart.

I am on foster number 4 and am also a close friend of the gal who runs GSRT and I know what goes on with fosters, adopters and every dog we try to help.

We have had many that could be your dog. Your dog is a Rottie cross, but Sheps have the same territorial issues. This is a dog that is scared. That is how they act. Everything fun and good should come from your man. ALL food. ALL treats. ALL walks. AND obedience class. No letting up, no backing down. Start nothing in life is free, do you know what that is? I can tell you more? Do NOT baby this dog. Do not hide her from the world.

Most recent dog like this was Zia. Our rescue took her in when a Montreal rescue ran into issues that aren't important. Same exact thing. Her adopter had to do all the things I posted. And it worked great!! We are so proud of her! And her Mom and patient Dad! And she was with a foster Mom with kids and there is kid in her house now and she is with neighbor kids. A very long haul, but very worth it. You love your dog and she is worth it.

Rottielover
June 28th, 2005, 08:12 PM
as I said i have been to trainers, and behaviourist, they told me the same thing, He has been taking it slow. the NILF works great with my other dog, but angel will not take anything from him unless I am there. So he does feed her, and praise her. talks mushy to her, but no luck, as I said has been going on since she was 8 months old, just getting worse with age not better. My bf has lived with me since OCT, and she was fine for 1 month, was all happy, then back to fearful self. But that was also the time I introduced the puppy.

tenderfoot
June 28th, 2005, 08:28 PM
You seem like a very sweet, soft hearted person - thank you for giving this girl a chance.
One thing that you said in a post was that this has happened before with another dog. Could be luck of the draw OR not.
In the current trend of "positive" training many dogs are being euthanized because their people think it means never having to say no - and the dogs never get the healthy leadership they need and they respond by becoming fearful which turns into aggression. In our minds 'positive' training is about being positive in your expectations and not being violent or physical to achieve those expectations.
All the love in the world is a wonderful thing to have & give, but it may not be what this girl needs most. YES she needs love and patience. But I believe she needs black and white boundaries that she can feel safe in, she needs to trust and respect her humans and she needs to experience the very things we are all avoiding because of her fears. She is extremely insecure and fearful - no news to you. Often the teenage months magnify a dogs worst problems. We need to help her grow up and get over it.
A CONFIDENT LEADER HAS A CONFIDENT PACK.
Picture her as an 8 year old girl who still cries for mommy when she has to go to school or camp, she runs from strangers, she distrusts mommies BF, she overreacts to lifes simple changes. Coddling her is not the answer - giving her clear boundaries in her world just might be.
I would attach her to me on leash and have her with me as much as possible. I know you are saying she follows you everywhere all ready. There is difference between her following you out of insecurity versus because you said so. This allows you to monitor her reactions to things and not let her take flight. It reminds you to give her lots of jobs - do this, do that - all through the day. This keeps her mind busy with your words, excreting calming chemicals in her brain and looking to you for the answers to her life. You can start creating boundaries for her that tell her when and where she can go. No more leaning into you for security(velcro dog syndrome) - she can sit 6" away from you and be just fine. You need to go into different rooms and drop the leash and tell her to stay out while you brush your teeth, wash dishes, say goodnight to the baby, etc. So sometimes she is with you and working and other times she is learning how to survive without you right next to her. She is learning balance.
After you have worked with her it is your BF's turn. He needs to engage her mind and start developing a relationshp built on trust and respect. He needs to not make too much eye contact at first so that the dog can find her own comfort zone with him. As he feels her relax then he can engage more emotionally. He should not get angry with her for any infraction. There is a difference between correcting with anger and correcting with clarity. He needs to be clear about what he expects of her and be soft in his responses.
This girl needs clear structure in her life. Right now she doesn't believe that anyone is looking out for her safey and she does not believe in herself either - so she overreacts to life in her only attempt to stay alive.

Toonces
June 28th, 2005, 08:39 PM
I didn't see that part, sorry!!! You got a puppy while you were having problems with her? That's a different story.

But on the main one, don't fall into the trap, she will evenually take things from him without you there, wait her out. He should hand feed her too, that helps alot! She will not starve! YOU need to show her.

but angel will not take anything from him unless I am there. So he does feed her, and praise her. talks mushy to her, but no luck,

My bf has lived with me since OCT, and she was fine for 1 month, was all happy, then back to fearful self.

But that was also the time I introduced the puppy.

Lucky Rescue
June 28th, 2005, 11:38 PM
He has tried doing everything with her. Feeding her and so on, just makes her more unstable. OB class too. we never fight in front of the dogs, and there is rarely tension. As I said, it has been escalating, instead of getting better, and more randomly.

Everyone assumes fearful dogs have been abused, but that is not always the case. Sometimes they are born that way. As you said, it's very rough for her being afraid all the time. And a fearful dog is often more dangerous than an outright aggressive one.

You know her better than anyone and you say it's getting worse (her behavior) and it sounds like you have done everything humanely possible.

There is no reason to think it will improve if you give her to someone else, and you could be setting yourself up for serious problems if you do so.

I feel just terrible for all of you, but cannot advise you on what to do.:(

Luba
June 28th, 2005, 11:55 PM
I am my dogs security blanket to a degree, I've had her since she was a baby and she was like this from the get go!

Some things she improves with some things she doesn't and is still timid and afraid about like I was mentioning.

You say she lunged at your bf through the cage.

I'm confused a little , you said she runs to her cage when she is afraid. Try to determine what it is that happens just before this... a loud noise a loud laugh a certain tone of voice? So she ran into the cage afraid and then he went to the cage? The door was open / closed and if it was closed why was she in the cage with the door closed? I'd like to know a little more about the actual event considering this is the ONLY sign of aggression she has shown.

The rest has been fear to date as you stated, so lets look at the specific event in question. Before going through everything in detail and finding the triggers and situation I think it be foolish to make ANY kind of a decision.

If you rehome her and something changes in that home, then she is back at step one. Not all dogs bite or attack when they are afraid, they will retreat most of the time if given somewhere to go where they feel safe.

Spurby
June 29th, 2005, 12:13 AM
If you believe dogs go through fear stages, and i do, then perhaps that is where and why these issues started, and didn't end. You state these problems started at 8 months of age, that is one age period that they do go through a fear stage. If they are coddled, then their fear didn't stop since they were basically being praised for it, it was encouraged. Not sure, since we can't see this dog in person. I do hope your new trainer can assist you with this dog.

Spurby
June 29th, 2005, 12:28 AM
Here is an aritcle that has information on the different stages that puppies go through, may be of some help http://www.doberman.org/articles/puppy.htm

Cactus Flower
June 29th, 2005, 01:01 AM
I find it very ironic that in one thread, someone is being called every name in the book for surrendering/ultimately euthanising a dog that had bad aggression problems (had even bitten her and tried to bite her young son) that the rehab trainers deemed too severe to rehabilitate........and in this thread some members are tearfully agreeing that Rottilovers dog should be humanely euthanised.

Rottilover, I'm sorry for what you are going through, and trust that whatever you decide to do will be what's best.

twinmommy
June 29th, 2005, 01:17 AM
Cf- No one is upset with Rottielover because she still HAS her dog and is seemingly going to do the right thing, --for her and her family. She is obviously very concerned with her dog--and NOT her plants.

In the case of Keeper, the OP lied about the dog's probs and brought him to a shelter after having being told to "hang on" and Keeper died alone, at the OHS. Nothing humane about it, and I think that's what gets people upset.

Rottielover--I have a dog that we have been working on for a few months. She has never lunged, or bit, but the randomness is the same. You can p.m. me if you want, I have a great trainer for you. I had him come to my house and make sure I had gotten rid of all the triggers--b/c you want o keep the environment safe for your kids while you work things out.

I have never felt in my heart that we were ready to take the "final step".
If I had PTS, I would've regret it by now, as she is really a good girl, and we just keep plugging at it. One day, things might just not work any more, but how could I not try, right? The important thing is that your kids are safe. Once your kids are safe and you get your "system" you'll see it's not so "exhausting"...(man could I relate to that!!)

I can tell you how to make your house safe with lots of baby gates--which by the way, you'd need with ANY dog as you attempt to mix with toddlers.

Sneaky2006
June 29th, 2005, 01:43 AM
Cf- No one is upset with Rottielover because she still HAS her dog and is seemingly going to do the right thing, --for her and her family. She is obviously very concerned with her dog--and NOT her plants.
In the case of Keeper, the OP lied about the dog's probs and brought him to a shelter after having being told to "hang on" and Keeper died alone, at the OHS. Nothing humane about it, and I think that's what gets people upset.
Yes that is true, but the point is that there are two dogs, both aggressive/biting/lunging and it's 'what's best' for one dog and 'horrible' for another.
You're right, the only difference is that the other owner lied about what the real problem was... that doesn't make the ending any different - she could've not come here, told the HS of her ordeal, the real reasons, and he would've been PTS, and that would've made it okay?
Is it because he was (a year, I think) younger or what? I don't get it.

Cactus Flower
June 29th, 2005, 03:04 AM
She is obviously very concerned with her dog--and NOT her plants. Keeper's owner admitted that this was NEVER about her plants, but was an aggression problem that she was afraid to advertise, yet everyone still keeps throwing that plant comment around. She even posted pictures of one of his bites on her. The people at the shelter found the aggression problem- he failed his behavioral tests because of it TWICE- and they decided not to even put him up for adoption, or release him back to his rescue or any of the people that were concerned about him. I'd say it's safe to assume that the aggression was pretty severe if they wouldn't even let someone else have a shot at him.

The comment has been made in this thread that you have to put the safety of your family first. Rottielover has also been urged NOT to rehome her dog because of the aggression. Yet Keeper's owner is still being bashed for not "hanging on" so he could have been rehomed.

I'm not going to hijack this thread into an argument about Keeper. I saw what I consider a bit hypocritical, commented upon it, and will leave it at that. We don't have to agree, and I will get over my disappointment. Promise :thumbs up .

Rottielover, I apologize for even bringing this up, and drawing attention away from your situation. I won't post again about it. I do agree that the safety of your family must come first, and still put all my faith in you deciding whatever is best.

poodletalk
June 29th, 2005, 08:26 AM
CF-The problem with the owners of Keeper is very simple. People offered to find Keeper a foster home and not send it to the SPCA. She didn't even tell the orginal rescue that she was going to take it to the SPCA. LR-even offered to put the dog on her petfinder site. What was the point of her posting if she didn't want our help? Instead she sends the dog to the SPCA, we get upset not knowing its aggression. We call send e-mails, go through an emotional roller coaster to have her come on say she lied! I spent all Monday morning at work talking with the SPCA! She didn't even tell the ORGINAL RESCUE that Keeper had an aggression problem, maybe she did, they would have taken the dog back immediately?! She thought not telling anyone of Keepers "aggression" problem would help Keeper in some way-obviously it didin't. When the dog was at the orginal rescue, he didn't have any aggression issues, if you happen to know the orginal rescue go to their website and click on rescent adoption. You will see the previous owner hugging Keeper and Keeper looks sweet and cuddly. So what happened to Keeper in those 5 months living with the previous owner? Lack of training. When talking on the phone with the SPCA, Keeper had alpha issues. SPCA even admited that if Keeper lived and worked with a trainer of 6 months, he would be an AMAZING dog-but they didn't want to give him a chance.

I don't understand,maybe its me. When you take an animal its for life, you work through their problems if health issues araise you deal with them also. You don't rehome an animal if they have issues- the issues DON'T disappear in a new home. They problems are worst, now the poor animal is wondering what happened to its family and it gets depressed. You take the good with the bad.Euthansia is NEVER the answer when the animal is healthy and their solutions to the problem. I agree with Luba and TenderFoots comments what to do help a frightened dog.

CF-please don't think I am venting out at you, to me euthanisia is just an easy way out.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 09:13 AM
OK..OK..OK, I do not even want to think about this option.....As I said I still trust angel, which is a big thing. As for the cage lunging. My bf was walking by her cage ( door closed) to go towards the kitchen. But even with that lunging....last night she was playing ball outside with himself and I. Can you say I am REALLY confused. She was still shy of him, but played anyways because of a ball. No joke one min she is great with him, the next she is cowering and freaked. She even started hiding behind my rottie puppy.
I do not believe she has an aggressive bone in her, and that is why if I could rehome her to a quieter home, without her major trigger ( My BF) she will sleep alot better. Not with one eye open so to speak.
The behaviourist that I made another apt with, I am not bothering, she is not will to see in Angels enviroment. Which is home. She is fine outside the home, so no need.
As hard as this is for me...... :sad: :sad: (typing in tears)
I Really think her best option is to find another home......someone who can give her as much love as I love her. I am not going to give her up easily. Has to be an exceptional home....
I do not think it is fair to euthanize her is the option to take the trigger way is there....
Am I doing the right thing...I can not even work, I am so sick to my stomache :sad: :yuck:

twinmommy
June 29th, 2005, 10:21 AM
Not sure, but if she has the ONE trigger, even tho it's a person, can this be worked on with that person? (guess I'm just throwing it out there, tyring to help you :grouphug:

See what a trainer says, I'll pm it to you...if you want..this might be easier to work on than 10-15 different material triggers... :fingerscr

p.s. CF--you're right , my comment about the "plants" (Keeper thread) was uncalled for....just still sooo sad over that one. Some "get ya" more than others...Keeper really touched a nerve... :sad:

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 10:24 AM
:pawprint: I found a picture of my sweetheart......

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 10:29 AM
It is not just one trigger, but the biggest of them all. I have written down some of her triggers as were suggesting by Doguelover. She helped alot. And by helping me has also come to the conclusion with a 15 month old daughter who is running everywhere knocking things over, wanting to see the dog. She may accidently get in the way when my BF triggers her. Not to say Angel would purposly hurt my daughter, but accidently she can, if she tries to snap at BF again, and my daughter is in the way. I believe This dog has a good chance to over come some of her fear, But not as long as my bf is around.....

Lucky Rescue
June 29th, 2005, 10:34 AM
I find it very ironic that in one thread, someone is being called every name in the book for surrendering/ultimately euthanising a dog that had bad aggression problems (had even bitten her and tried to bite her young son) that the rehab trainers deemed too severe to rehabilitate........and in this thread some members are tearfully agreeing that Rottilovers dog should be humanely euthanised.

I suppose I should shut up, but have to answer the "hypocritical" thing...

IF "Rottielover" had said in her first, second and third post on this thread that she was going to dump her dog at the HS for chewing shoes and tearing up plants ONLY then she would have gotten EXACTLY the same reaction as the other poster did.

Aggression was not even hinted at until much later and after the previous deliberate omissions, lies and attempts to get someone here to adopt the dog under false pretenses. When someone you don't know says "I was lying before but now I'm not", I, for one, am skeptical.

I'm sure if someone here had taken this dog before the truth was finally dragged out, and it had attacked THEIR child, they may not have been so understanding and forgiving that the owner "forgot" to mention aggression.

Now can we please keep this thread about Rottielover and her dog?

Thank you.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 10:45 AM
Thank you lucky. I have been trying everything, been doing everything to make this work. I never ever thought it would have come down to this. My puppy is going to be devestated. when I am not around, she hides behind the puppy. I am not doing this as an easy fix. I have done all that I can do, figuring I still have a baby at home. Maybe if she was not around I would have had alot more time to focus on Angel, but I don't, and I did what i could with the time available. OB classes trainers, behaviourist. And by the way they suck. They tell you they do not know what is wrong, so you spend more money with them....Well I can't do it anymore. As I said my baby will not be DUMPED. I want to make sure that what eve is wrong will not be wrong for the new adopter. She is NOT aggressive, or I would never ever put her up for adoption.......I just think it is better to live in a home where she can sleep soundly, and not worry if BF will pet her.
Pleas do not make me out to be a bad person, I love her to death, and only want the best for her sanity. Please understand I did what I could with the resourses I had

tenderfoot
June 29th, 2005, 10:48 AM
You have to do what is right in your heart for everyone concerned and since you are not taking this lightly I know you will make the right choice.
I am very curious that she is so frigthened of BF. I am sure he is a doll, but even a doll can make a mistake. Can you think of or could he not be admitting to a time when he truely frigthened her? For what ever reason she knows she is in danger with him. Her version of danger may not be what ours is. He could have stepped on her toe by accident, or gotten angry if she made a mistake. For her it was scarey enough to take her breath away. Your comment - "She is fine outside the home" - really reinforces this for me.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 10:54 AM
But as i said, she also will play ball with him outside the home. No he did not ever scare her, other than talk to her and she would cower. The behaviourist said that since she was taken away so young from mommy, and had another home before mine, heck only knows what happend. Also she was sick for the first 3 months that we had her, so if she showed signs of fear I did not read into it, because she was so sick. Only when she was 1000% better did she show signs

pags
June 29th, 2005, 11:04 AM
Rottie -- I'm sorry about what you're going through. I once had a dog who hated my (now-ex) husband. It turned out to be a really complicated trigger involving alcohol and the slightest change in his demeanor.

I guess the biggest problem is we know how to work with our dogs... and it's really hard to tell someone else to do it. We can teach other people how to train and bond and so on.. but it takes a deeper understanding of the whole thing for it to actually work. I have been 'training' my (current) husband for years now - but he still isn't always on the ball when it comes to teaching our animals -- no matter how sincere he is. It just takes time.. and sometimes time is the last thing we have when dealing with a serious problem (and a baby and a BF and a puppy).

If the trainers, etc. you have worked with believe that rehoming is possible and even preferrable for her -- I wish you the best of luck in finding the right people and place for her.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 11:09 AM
That was an option that gave to me the other was euthanization. I am NOT killing her for something she has no control over. I believe that she can be rehomed. I just need some help from the experts to help me find a right home for her. She is great with male dogs, exellent with cats. Kids too she is very gentle.......As I said her major trigger is in my house and can not leave.....
Do I trust her around kids....Yes. they were never part of the problem. she loves my daughter. would I rehome her with kids, yes but preferable older ones, for her sanity. quieter the better. An active family. who likes swimming with their dogs. I can not say everything good about her, BUT she definetly deserves a chance to live a happy active life

tenderfoot
June 29th, 2005, 11:18 AM
I think the triggers are definable. Sometimes it helps to put ourselves in their world.
Imagine yourself as a little girl. You were taken from your mother at a young age, you went to live with relatives (who knows what the father or uncle in that house did to you), you became very sick for a while and then you got a new adopted family who took care of you and loved you until you got well. Now you are feeling okay but you remember that men can't be trusted. You try to get along in the adopted family but the BF reminds you of the man who scared you. You try to play with the family but sometimes he does something that scares you - it might just be the look of an eye or the movement of an arm - and you are so scared you can't breathe again - so you hide (or if you feel cornered (ie the crate) you are willing to defend yourself and lash out).
Now the BF is not the bad guy and over time you learn to trust him. You may always be warey of men in general until you learn to trust. Your adopted mom helps show you when people are trustworthy and though you may never trust completey, you came a long way with the BF it just took time.
So she never felt the security of having someone protect her as a baby and maybe someone even hurt her or scared her. She was too young to feel that she could protect herself so she has no confidence in people or herself to keep her safe. Now that she has you - she can't leave your side for fear of being hurt again. But you brought the BF home and now she is scared all over again because you are distracted by the child, the BF, the puppy and she feels lost. Good leadership is her salvation. I am sure you have been a good mom, but you are busy and she needs you to help her through this hump of emotional trama.
This is a form of therapy that takes time. She has to get through the fears and learn to take a deep breath that tells you she is finally relaxed. If BF can really be aware of his body language and tones I would bet that she could learn that he isn't so scarey. It will be 3 steps forward and 2 steps back sometimes but it is still moving in the right direction.
Rightfully you might decide it isn't worth the wait because the children could be at risk. But it is a rare occassion that we have not been able to help a dog through it's issues.
I am sorry your experiences with trainers/behaviorists have been so poor. I can only hope that we do not fit in that category. I know that any profession can be riddled with bad people, but most people who are in this business SHOULD be doing it for the love of dogs and wanting to make everyone's lives more harmonious (they surely aren't doing it for the money!)

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 11:27 AM
To a large extent I agree with CF!!

I am going out on a limb here and going to say something that I'm sure I'm going to get jumped on about!!

This appears to me to be a situation where the pup is wanted and the adult dog is going to once again be dumped.

It never fails to concern me the number of things people will do to keep their boyfriends and their puppies but when they grow up to be adult dogs that have some issues hey lets just rehome the dog...give the problem to someone else.

IF this beautiful dog is behaving well outside the home then she CAN behave well INSIDE the home. The trick is to find out HOW to do it and to me this dog is worth you taking the additional time and effort in doing such.

I asked WHY was she locked in the cage if she was and you didn't answer????
She is housetrained and you were home so why was she in there??

OFCOURSE if she is timid and afraid of your bf she will freak out when he walks by IF she is locked inside. Here's an idea, maybe don't freak her out by locking her in the cage when he is near / around. Why is she in there to begin with?

To me it seems to be that this 'rehoming' or 'euthanizing' this dog is getting FAR TOO MUCH support and I'd be interested in knowing WHY?

Is it because it's a Rottie x?? Would you say the same thing if it were another breed, maybe a smaller dog?

Having the boyfriend MOVE IN while you're still working out all these problems with your dog being afraid of him was a very poor decision. Then getting a puppy on top of it, another poor decision.

If you're not willing to put more of an effort in then maybe this poor girl would do better with someone else who wouldn't be so quick to dump her!

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 11:36 AM
Luba. I won't say what i think you are right now....What you said was extremely hurtful and uncalled for. So.....go away. You do not know what amount of effort has been put into this dog, nor do you care. I got the puppy yes.....He has been her saviour through many occassions. By the way it is not ONLY in the home, most of the time it is in the home. There has been a couple times outside the home she has been growly and barky towards men holding things. I have been putting all the time and enegry that I possibly can into this dog. I don't want to dump her as you call it. And I am not choosing one or the other.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 11:39 AM
I was not home, and bf was sleeping, so both the puppy and angel were inside their crates. They are both housebroken, but they love their crates so when I am not home, and BF is sleeping they are in there......I WAS NOT HOME when that incident occured, about lunging from her crate, I never said I was....

LavenderRott
June 29th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Gosh, if only we all lived in a perfect world!

My dog is wonderfully housebroken, yet he does find himself in his crate sometimes during the day when I am home. For whatever reason. I doubt that he is being damaged by this.

So maybe she should get rid of her boyfriend, her baby and her puppy and devote all of her time on dealing with this dog? Or, since the baby and the puppy aren't the problem - maybe just the BF? And maybe she is afraid of all men, so OP should get rid of the boyfriend and for the next 10-12 years not let any men in the house.

Not all dogs that are fearful have been abused. Rehoming a fearful dog that lives in a home with a child is a responsible thing to do. While the OP is not concerned about the dog biting the child, the possibility of the child cornering the dog and getting bit is very real.

Would I say the same thing if it wasn't a rottie X? You bet.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 11:49 AM
Thank you Lavender rott.........I am not the type of person to give in so easily, that is why I went through many precautions first. To try and work with her. I can not lose the BF, is my daughters father. Or believe me I might have given that option a try. But in my case not even worth a thought. I have been up for many nights to try and see what I can do for my baby....I can not do any more. I really think she would do better where the intial fear is not directly in front of her. People please understand this is killing me........ I am not going to give her to the spca, I want to know where she is going

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 11:55 AM
Well unfortunately I'm not going away as this is a public forum and you posted your information for all to read and respond. I don't care what you think of me or what you want to call me.

I am saying what I believe and what I feel. You did indicate that this was the ONLY sign of aggression in more then one of your posts. NOW that I bring up issues that hit close to home suddenly there are MORE signs of aggression.

Didnt' you just say she doesn't have an aggressive bone in her?
I do not believe she has an aggressive bone in her

So the ONLY person she had a problem with was boyfriend and now its other men on the street?? How easy and convenient for this information to come to light now.

Ok so lets look at this logically IF that were the case, would rehoming her solve that problem NO!

And say a few months from now your precious little puppy starts to act fearful with b/f...what would you do then? Rehome that dog too?

MY dog has most of the issues that you post here and NEVER EVER would I EVER consider rehoming her in a million years.

If it were me that were posting this very same thread and not you, and this were my precious collie Sadie you can bet that I would have atleast a DOZEN or MORE offers of people wanting to pick her up from my home that very day!!

Anyone with any knowledge of ANY breed of dog knows a caged or tied up dog with fear WILL snarl, growl or lung from fear!

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Never said aggression, said it was fear...... Never mind. I will look for help elsewhere BYE

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 01:52 PM
Look for help or look for those who will just sympathize with YOU and not this poor dog!

Snarling at people on the street is aggressive behaviour, but that wasn't mentioned til much later on....just like with Keeper's situation.

It would be nice if people were upfront and honest but obviously on an anonymous forum thats never gonna happen because it doesn't happen much in real life.

Someone needs to speak for the dogs who cannot speak for themselves.

Poor pup.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 02:01 PM
AS I wrote in a private PM


NOT not compare me to the story of keeper, stop generalizing. Not all owners of dogs are cruel. You are starting to remind me of the PETA group. I feel like am repeating myself over again. I was looking for help. Other options other than euthanization. I have found that help with alot of help and consideration. If you have nothing else to contribute other than snappy remarks, please do not write back.....I need other answers, not to be put down

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 02:07 PM
The answer is WORK with the dog every day, it is an effort. I know personally how hard it is. It may take months or years for this dog to adjust.

Have you taken her to social events with other dogs? Doggy daycare for play time to give her some self esteem? Have you considered enrolling her in some sort of agility class or fun sport?

My remarks are straight fwd NOT snappy, they are truthful and spoken from experience and from the heart.

The question is how much work / effort are you willing to give?

I would suggest you NEVER lock her in her cage again, leave it open for her to come and go at her free will. Securing her will make her more timid and afraid and MAY turn her into a fear biter. ESPECIALLY with bf there.

poodletalk
June 29th, 2005, 02:11 PM
Sounds like a confidence issue Angel has. If you are not getting the proper information or help from your trainers, go somewhere else. I can recommend you a fantastic trainer in the Southshore. Would you be willing to drive that far from the West Island?

Rehoming the dog wouldn't solve its problems. If he has a fear of men, he will have the same issues in the new home. Rehoming an animal, their problems DON'T just disappear. There anixiety and fear will build even more. They don't understand what happened to their family? All they know is there in a strange place, with strange people, with new rules. The dog needs YOU! She needs you to help her!

Like I told you yesterday, my parents Lab has/HAD the same issues as Angel.We worked with her on confidence, when she did something that frightened her before, we would praise her like crazy! Good Girl Lucy!! lots of hugs and kisses. My parents got a second dog, Clyde who's a double for Keeper. He even helped her with her confidence. I would take both dogs for a walk at the same time, Lucy was terrified of birds, buses EVERYTHING. She would walk behind Clyde for security. Slowly she inched her way to the front, to beside Clyde. Now,when we take them for awalk together, Lucy automatically walks infront with her head held high. If she sees a bus, birds shes no longer afraid.

It took time, patience and LOVE!

A dog is for life, you take the good with the bad.

Cactus Flower
June 29th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Hold on, Rottielover. You've said it was fear, but you also said:

she tried to lunge at him through the cage. As for the cage lunging. My bf was walking by her cage ( door closed) to go towards the kitchen 15 month old daughter who is running everywhere knocking things over, wanting to see the dog. She may accidently get in the way when my BF triggers her. Not to say Angel would purposly hurt my daughter, but accidently she can, if she tries to snap at BF again her fear becoming worse, and more unstable I am not worried about the aggressive natureThere has been a couple times outside the home she has been growly and barky towards men holding things

So you have also mentioned aggression, and your concerns about it. Maybe people are getting confused by what seems to be mixed messages.
Don't leave- please clear this up.
Could it be that you are having trouble admitting the aggression problem yourself, because it paints a grimmer picture or leads you to a resolution that you are uncomfortable with?

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Either or the truth is the best. Can't get help w/o giving the truth.

If even she does have some aggression that can still be worked on, I've seen amazing things with dogs who you thought would rip your face off!

Esp if this dog is in a stable home now.

pags
June 29th, 2005, 02:30 PM
You know... I realize that a dog is a commitment for life. But so is marriage... And just how often does everyone involved in THAT do absolutely everything under the sun to make it work?

Now... I don't mean to say that people don't do everything THEY CAN to make it work. They do what THEY can... Not everything that can be done. Sometimes the only option left for us is not IDEAL.. but it is the best option left. IDEALLY every dog and its owner would be completely compatible for all time and in all situations.. and every dog owner would be able to give 200 percent to their dogs no matter what the circumstances... IDEALLY. But it just doesn't always work that way. Rottie has made it clear that she certainly doesn't want her dog to be put down.. she wants to find a home for her... and a better home given the circumstances.

I'd be a raving lunatic if Rottie was telling us she's just gonna have to dump her at the shelter or something even more horrific... But she's not. She's been asking about rehoming. Maybe we could all just try to help with that?

ER okay since I finally posted this I see that that's what we're trying to do here. Ignore all of that up there. :o

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 02:30 PM
the lunging at the cage was from fear....as I wrote there I am NOT worries about aggressive issues......That's right. I am worried about her fear

LL1
June 29th, 2005, 02:31 PM
Alot of great advice has been given,I wish it would be taken.
Rehoming the dog wouldn't solve its problems. If he has a fear of men, he will have the same issues in the new home. Rehoming an animal, their problems DON'T just disappear. There anixiety and fear will build even more. They don't understand what happened to their family? All they know is there in a strange place, with strange people, with new rules. The dog needs YOU! She needs you to help her!

It took time, patience and LOVE!

A dog is for life, you take the good with the bad.

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 02:32 PM
That is why I said leave the cage door OPEN and face it AWAY from the common area where people walk...maybe put a blanket over part of the cage but leave it OPEN do NOT lock her inside.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 02:32 PM
Quote:
she tried to lunge at him through the cage.

Quote:
As for the cage lunging. My bf was walking by her cage ( door closed) to go towards the kitchen

Quote:
15 month old daughter who is running everywhere knocking things over, wanting to see the dog. She may accidently get in the way when my BF triggers her. Not to say Angel would purposly hurt my daughter, but accidently she can, if she tries to snap at BF again

Quote:
her fear becoming worse, and more unstable

Quote:
I am not worried about the aggressive nature

Quote:
There has been a couple times outside the home she has been growly and barky towards men holding things


THE unstable part I meant by more unpredictable with her fear of him.....AS I STATED. one min she is lovey dovey next min she is cowering and peeing

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 02:35 PM
It may be wise to take her to the vet and rule out a thyroid condition.
Sometimes that can cause unexpected irritableness and a urine test as well for any signs of hormonal imbalance.

LL1
June 29th, 2005, 02:36 PM
That perfect home with no men in it,living beside it,or ever walking on the street near it,does not exist.Rehoming will make the dog worse,not better,and intensify the fears. Rottie has made it clear that she certainly doesn't want her dog to be put down.. she wants to find a home for her... and a better home given the circumstances.

I'd be a raving lunatic if Rottie was telling us she's just gonna have to dump her at the shelter or something even more horrific... But she's not. She's been asking about rehoming. Maybe we could all just try to help with that?

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 02:36 PM
I am being honest, have done everything to stay honest. Just it is alot harder to type than to speak it. As for crate training, that is her security blanket. she sleeps there when I am not home, or she will get anxious. She loves her crate, never ever used it as her punishment. I have a feeling if I was to take away that, there possibly could be more problems. When I am home, or BF is awake she is loose. As for working with her, I have been doing this since she became healthy as of 8 months. AS stated, I got PG when about that time. from then we worked hard. At that point my BF did not live with me. But when he visited, I could see her fear. From that point on as I said trainers, behaviourist. they do not see the exact problem other than he triggers something in her. She has never even looked at the baby a wrong way, only with love and submission. What else did I forget????

poodletalk
June 29th, 2005, 02:50 PM
In her old homes, the men of the house scared her. From what I understand, the fear has been going on for a quite awhile, it has gotten worst since he moved in.

You need to speak to an animal trainer/behavorlist that can help you. Rehoming to her a home where theres no men, no men walking by doesn't exisit. Do you think the new owners would be willing to help her with her fears when they don't even now her!? You KNOW and LOVE her for the past couple of years, SHE NEEDS YOU!

Lucky Rescue
June 29th, 2005, 02:55 PM
Do you think the new owners would be willing to help her with her fears when they don't even now her!? You KNOW and LOVE her for the past couple of years

This is what we tell people calling us to rehome their animals with behavior problems - cat spraying/avoiding litterbox, dog who bites.

If the person who raised and supposedly loves this animal cannot tolerate this, why would some stranger who does not know and love it??

sammiec
June 29th, 2005, 02:55 PM
First off there has been som every useful information posted her from many members. If I were you I'd write some of those items down and get started. the first thing would be to turn her crate so that she has a "private" entrance and is not right in the middle of a high traffic area of your home. I would cover one end with the blanket as suggested so that she feels hse has her own den. Locking her into her "safe spot" when your BF is around will not cure her problems. They will make her afraid of her safe spot.
If you really are her secruity blanket - why woudl you want to take that away from her as well. By rehoming her would you not only be confusing her when she is fearful, but you're taking away the only thing/person that makes her feel safe. That's a receipe for disaster.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 02:59 PM
PLEASe do not try and make me feel more guilty about this.....I already feel bad enough. I am trying to say That is my BF is the main trigger, wouldn't it be better for her sanity to remove the trigger. Rehoming her into a place that will not have him around ????

poodletalk
June 29th, 2005, 03:03 PM
NO! Her problem is MEN, not just your boyfriend. For her sanity, she needs to get over this fear. Speak to your vet about this. Like I said, I can recommend a great trainer, and I can also recommend a FANTASTIC VET. Just incase you aren't happy with what people are telling you. If you want, why don't you just speak to them and see what they say.

pags
June 29th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Well.. I googled variations of the phrase "my dog doesn't like my boyfriend" and what I found is a lot of the suggestions people have already given here... One of them is something I noticed Luba said but I'm not sure if you said it was tried... and it involves treats. You know -- the way to a dog's heart? Has your BF tried just walking around with really scrumptous treats in his pockets all day and dropping/handing them to her throughout the day when she doesn't show a fear response? I mean.. not just when she's being lovey dovey -- but just for sitting there and not responding too? I guess the idea is that your BF becomes something of the candy man -- a 100% positive experience.

I sort of took this one for granted and didn't think about mentioning it. But would he be willing to walk around smelling like bacon and being the treat man or something for a while?

I'm editing now -- I guess what I'm asking is - is your BF willing to try anymore or is he too at his wit's end? Cause any of these suggestions would really require his cooperation too.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 03:08 PM
I will talk to another trainer, BUT I trust my vet completely, she has been nothing but honest. JUST A QUESTION. if it is all men, why only my BF, and once in a blue moon another man ?????

Cactus Flower
June 29th, 2005, 03:09 PM
But would he be willing to walk around smelling like bacon or something for a while?
Pags, you are adorable!

Sounds like good advice- and I agree with everything you said in your previous post, as well.

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 03:09 PM
LMHO @ pags walking around smelling like bacon HAHAHA

To a degree this is very true!

I need to ask how does you bf react to her? Does he 'like' her or is he frustrated with her? This is important....and yes be honest. Is he soft and gentle with her or abrasive and irritated, laughs at her when she's scared?

Don't coddle her as mentioned before...IGNORE the fear and change it into something fun and exciting. IT CAN BE IMPROVED!

The cage issue is huge, read over my suggestion about that and Sammiec's!

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 03:10 PM
tried that for quite some time, even tried having him feed her by hand....The ONLY way she took it from him was outside, and with the other dog around.

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 03:12 PM
Oh yes and what about some form of agility class or flyball...something for her to boost her self esteem?? Something your bf can join in on!

If your bf happens to be the ONLY one to give her treats on an ONGOING basis and he IS a good soft sensitive type of guy..she WILL have no choice but to fall for him :D

LL1
June 29th, 2005, 03:12 PM
He's the main man she has contact with.Happens alot.
I will talk to another trainer, BUT I trust my vet completely, she has been nothing but honest. JUST A QUESTION. if it is all men, why only my BF, and once in a blue moon another man ?????

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 03:13 PM
We posted at the same time....

about the food she will eat when she is hungry and when it it something yummie that she cannot resist. KEEP IT UP don't stop it, keep doing it!

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 03:13 PM
He loves her, does not get frustrated with her. He wants to help her. But he too is down in the dumps with what is happening. The cage right now is right next to Harley in the living room, in a corner. left open in the day when I am home if she wants to go in. We have a towel on top of it holding a plant, LOL

poodletalk
June 29th, 2005, 03:13 PM
Thats a start...it NOT an over night miracle to get over these fears. He will feed her outside, slowly he will get closer to the backdoor with her feeding out of his hand. Eventually, she will be taking stuff out of his hand inside. You must be slow and patient!

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 03:14 PM
SHE has refused steak from him, do not tell me that is normal :(

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 03:14 PM
Ok so move the cage so that she has privacy somewhere AWAY from foot traffic with a blanket covering the side facing OUT to the foot traffic area, and the cage door open facing sideways.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 03:15 PM
ok will do that tonight.......OH ya, we are going to regress soon, my BF is out of town for 3 weeks, NOW what do I do ??????

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 03:17 PM
So she refused it 1 x or 10 x maybe the 11th time she'll take it!

You can't reward her and then give it to her yourself, HE has to be the one to feed her. Like I said.....he can toss it to her on the floor ten feet away at first. SHE WILL EAT IT!!

YOU HAVE TO NOT BE IN THE ROOM OR THE OTHER PUPPY!! Just him and her...toss a piece of meat tell her she's a good girl. PRAISE HER WHEN SHE TAKES IT! The next piece toss at 9 feet, then 8 then 7 and so on until she's closer....BUT this may take several attempts DON'T give up on her.

Besides maybe she'd prefer chicken to steak :D

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 03:19 PM
Boyfriend feeds her BEFORE he leaves to go out of town.

Use one of his stinky body odoured tshirts and put it on top of her bedding in her crate. Then HE puts more treats in there on TOP of his stinky shirt.

DO NOT let the pup go for it and YOU DO NOT TELL HER it is there HE has to tell her!!

When he returns, he goes and puts a piece of yummies in the crate where the others were on his stinky sweaty shirt LOL

poodletalk
June 29th, 2005, 03:20 PM
Maybe shes a vegaterian....

pags
June 29th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Besides maybe she'd prefer chicken to steak :D

LOL Luba -- I was going to say I've known some dogs who didn't necessarily like steak. :D But seriously Rottie - you've gotta find something she just LOVES and let HIM be the benefactor - the bacon man! A special treat - just from him.. and all that other stuff that Luba said.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 03:23 PM
NO veggie there, she eats the steak from the floor when he tosses it. But the second I leave the room, she comes after me, or will go to her cage and hide.

pags
June 29th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Maybe shes a vegaterian....

ROFL poodle - that's even better!!

And the stinky shirt thing is the BEST!!! We let our puppy sleep with one of my husband's stinkiest shirts during the day since he's gone for work most of the day and I'm getting to do all the fun bonding.

Daisy's Owner
June 29th, 2005, 03:33 PM
NO veggie there, she eats the steak from the floor when he tosses it. But the second I leave the room, she comes after me, or will go to her cage and hide.

Maybe I am totally off base here, but maybe you being there is her current comfort level. Have your BF give her treats while you are there until the pup can sit beside him or whatever. Then you move further away but still in eyesight and start all over again from 10 ft then 9 etc. Keep doing this until you are no longer in the room. If the pup gets to the point of stress, go back to the last step where the pup was comfortable and start again.

This is not an exercise that can be accomplished in one evening. It is going to take weeks.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 03:39 PM
I am willing to try all this, but please do remember I have alittle girl running around too, and I can not ignore her. I am thinking about maybe adding another OB class to her name. my BF won't be there, that's the problem..he has a second job. Will another OB course help if it is only with me ??

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 03:44 PM
A play group will help her self esteem.

The more YOU are there the more she will sucky to you and not to herself.

You can do all these things when the kid is sleeping or napping..I"m sure the baby goes to bed before you.

Just do it, stop what if'ing everything and just do it or I'll throw a banana creme pie at ya :crazy:

sammiec
June 29th, 2005, 03:46 PM
You're not the "problem" it's your BF, and for things to get better he MUST be apart of the training otherwise, what's the point?!?! HE needs to give the treats, and training, and they need to develop a bond not YOU! You can care for your daughter, you're not ignoring her... this training and bonding is for THEM!

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 03:49 PM
The OB class is not an option for him....Unfortunetly. I will do what is suggested. I was just told today, that althought she did not like it, he took her for a walk with my other one :). He really is trying to make an effort

angie79
June 29th, 2005, 04:02 PM
wow Iwent out for a 2 hours and had a 1/2 hour read to catch up on...
I dont think anyone suggested getting her more comfortable with other men as well as the BF. eps since rottie said the BF was leaving for work for a while.. try getting some males in your house to get her used to. and I really like the idea of the smelly shirt, may be not in the crate that seems to be crossing the line "sleeping with the enemy"

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 04:33 PM
Enemies don't give you treats in your bed now do they?

He's taking her for walks, great stuff keep it up whether she likes it or not.

Some walks he can take her ALONE w/o the other pup around just the two of them THEY need to bond together.

If she is a fusser and pulls get her a harness, she won't choke and won't be able to pull as much.

In fact BEFORE he goes away get a stinky shirt today, one he wore ALL Day with his smell on it...and put it in her crate...so what she doesn't go in there at first, she will. ESPECIALLY if you start feeding her in there.

Slowly but surely keep persistent do NOT give into her and don't coddle her.

When she has done something good with him HE praises her NOT you, not at this time anyway....this is something that you have to remind yourself.

She got very attached to you, esp if she was sick...so now she turns to you for everything. My Sadie is the SAME way...trust me!! I am going through all of this right now as well and it is challenging but it's great when you see improvements and changes.

Just now for example, taking loads of gravel in a wheelbarrel from the drive to the yard to make a walkway. NOISY NOISY and I did happen to run over my damn foot too so I did scream. Normally she would have bolted what did she do....
....she looked her ears back but didn't run she creeped a little like she was going to. I turned to her and gave her a FIRM direction 'SADIE backyard now"

and she went, no problem then proceeded to run right by me with the wheelbarrel not scared of the noises and play in the gravel after I dumped it.

THIS is a HUGE deal for her, she has been afraid of very unusual things, including my 'male' neighbour and a couple 'male' friends that come over. BUT now, she knows they love her and give her love and she is coming around.

It takes time , persistance and patience...and that is all.

Now go strip your bf and have him put his stinky shirt in her crate with some yummies on it.

sammiec
June 29th, 2005, 04:44 PM
OMG Lubie!!! ROTFLMFAO!!! That's hilarious! You crack me up!! (not your information, the last part and the pic....)

ITA with Luba...HE needs to have bonding time ALONE with her no other animals or people.

Cactus Flower
June 29th, 2005, 04:46 PM
OMG Luba, now I'm traumatized.....someone please give me a stinky shirt to help me get over this....

Sneaky2006
June 29th, 2005, 04:48 PM
Now go strip your bf and have him put his stinky shirt in her crate with some yummies on it. If that aint a sight! :D :p

pags
June 29th, 2005, 04:51 PM
ROFLMAO!!!

OMG It started with "Enemies don't give you treats in your bed now do they?" and it ended with THAT!! I'm gonna go be traumatized with CF -- grab an extra stinky shirt for me!

But I have to say all the stuff in the middle was really sound advice.

angie79
June 29th, 2005, 05:01 PM
CF I need my laundry done if your offering...I'll give you all my stinky's you can give them back when they are clean......

Luba, there was some really good content there, but the fat guy???? thats a real shocker...

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 05:13 PM
LOL I have a bunch of laundry too :D I prefer fragrance free detergent and NO fabric softener please, hand on an outdoor line to dry please :D

I know isn't he the most awful thing you've ever seen...though he does roll his hips in an interesting way LMFHO

DogueLover
June 29th, 2005, 06:32 PM
I wasn`t going to post on this thread anymore because I feel that there is a lot of speculation being made about the dog and the owner.
I spoke with her and suggested some ideas that I hope will help.

Personally, I think that the issue of rehoming is not one that is dangerous. She has put a lot of time and effort into making this work........... something she does not have at a premium now. This, to me, is not a matter of "dumping" this dog onto some unsuspecting new owner because of the baby and the puppy. This dog clearly has a fear of her bf, and that doesn`t necessarily mean that he did anything wrong to her. It could be his demeanour or his physical appearance that triggers her memory to very unpleasant thoughts. She may overcome this and she may not. The one unfortunate thing about this dog is that she came with very little history. Other than the fact that she was sick, she had more than likely been taken from her mom too early and that this was her 3rd home.
If she finds some comfort in the new puppy then I see no harm in that. Dogs with issues are harder to get along with than new dogs that you know ALL the history, true, but in this case I do not get the impression that the OP feels that way.
It is also true that her issues may not get better in a new home, and yes they could get worse, but if it is made clear that she does have issues that need to be worked on, and the right home is found, she could have a complete recovery from whatever traumatized her in the first place.

It is pretty easy to sit back and say kick the bf out and keep the dog, how realistic is that? in all honesty?

I know that a lot of you would say that you would NEVER part with your dog and you`d send your bf or hubby packing................ my only comment to those who say that is NEVER SAY NEVER. Until you are in that unique situation you cannot say what you would do.
I cannot say that she should send her life partner, and father of her child packing because the dog doesn`t like him. Maybe I am heartless but my child would come first...............and I sincerely hope that I am never in that position.

With the proper screening and with a lot of help her dog can be placed in a home where someone has the time to devote to rehabilitating her. It is a full time job, and I would wonder how many of the members here could financially quit their job and pay a babysitter to keep their child out of the way ( just in case something went wrong) and totally devote themselves to getting this dog past these issues. I haven`t heard anyone offer to take the dog on....... just a lot of criticism toward the OP for a decision that is tearing her heart out.

Try to look at the big picture. Take a look at your own situation and ask yourself what you would do, honestly.

LR, do you think there is anyone you know that may take this dog into their home and work her through the issues? Or anyone else involved in rescue?? Anyone here have any suggestions as to helping her find a home to rehabilitate in?

Lucky Rescue
June 29th, 2005, 07:12 PM
LR, do you think there is anyone you know that may take this dog into their home and work her through the issues? Or anyone else involved in rescue?? Anyone here have any suggestions as to helping her find a home to rehabilitate in?

Sadly, it's difficult enough to find homes for dogs with no behavior problems of any kind, and they are dying daily in large numbers just for lack of homes.:(

Also, it's impossible to know if this dog can be rehabbed, or if this problem is genetic and the temperament is flawed.

Many people who see these fearful or "iffy" dogs assume they were abused, but very often they weren't.

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 07:19 PM
I never said get rid of the bf

There is LOTS of great advise here and it will take time and effort to change this dogs behaviour.

LL1
June 29th, 2005, 07:41 PM
Who said kick the BF out?LR is right,perfect dogs are killed daily.PLEASE reread what Toonces posted.This will not be solved with just treats,everything good must be from him.Crate idea from Luba was real smart too.Obedience classes would be best when BF gets back,ALL good stuff should be from the BF,that means,when he is not away,NO meals,NO walks,no Treats,nada!It is a pain and takes a while,it works!You are coddling her,it is making her WORSE not BETTER.
Sadly, it's difficult enough to find homes for dogs with no behavior problems of any kind, and they are dying daily in large numbers just for lack of homes.:(

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 07:58 PM
As I said before the part about my BF taking her to OB class is impossible. I just look at my precious angel and start crying :sad:

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 08:08 PM
Why is it impossible?

tenderfoot
June 29th, 2005, 08:08 PM
Since my light approach has seemingly been ignored I am going to try harder to be heard (not meant maliciously). I am sorry to get pushy but that seems to get your attention.
I am hearing you tell everyone how you have done everything possible yet I have not heard what you have done (except make your BF seem like a good piece of steak). People come to us and say "we have done just what you said and it didn't work" So we have them show us what they are doing and it isn't even close to what the dog needs. In order for her to be different YOU ALL have to be different.
I am also hearing nothing but a defensive attitude. People have repeatedly tried to offer sound advice (not just us) and I have not heard much thinking on the advice offered - only defensiveness.
I do think there is validity in the fact that you refuse to consider her behavior as aggressive. Lunging, biting, barking are aggressive behaviors REGARDLESS of their origin. 99% of all dog aggression is related to fear - it does not diminish the fact that it is aggression. What it does tell us is that we need to deal with the origin of her insecurity and fears - that is where the cure is found - not in steak. If you thought the devil was offering you steak would you take it? It is not about the steak!
I am going to try very hard not to get any more involved in this thread because it really doesn't seem like you want help - it seems like you only want to be stroked for what you have done & your tears - not learn about what more can be done. Because the help that has been offered has been ignored.

glasslass
June 29th, 2005, 08:09 PM
I've stayed out of this thread because I didn't see it til this afternoon. My heart just goes out to this dog. To lose it's family and home yet again can't possibly instill confidence and self-esteem. No way is this even possible. Sure, rehoming will solve the problem . . . . but not for the dog!

Luba, your male burlesque dancer looks more like dirty shorts, not t-shirt!

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 08:12 PM
You are right, it's not about the steak tenderfoot I do agree.

I was trying to get across the fact that positive things can come from bf if he is willing and she is willing to approach it that way.

IF the dog no longer sees him as a threatening even in one area, then it's something to build on.

I also agree it seems to be that there seem to be a lot of rebuttals instead of 'great idea' responses. If what u have tried before doesn't work, either u weren't doing it right to begin with or it was the wrong approach, so try another but be consistent with it.

I wish you would stay to give advise tenderfoot a lot of what you say makes very good sense.

tenderfoot
June 29th, 2005, 08:19 PM
Thanks Luba - I wasn't trying to dis your ideas, I do agree that we need to create positive energy around the BF. I just don't want people thinking that bribery or treats are the answer to her problems. Perhaps too much bribery could even backfire on this situation.
Wow, there I go - I broke my own promise within 5 minutes. I just can't keep my nose out of other peoples business. I am a bad dog! :p

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 08:21 PM
You'd better be careful or I'll have you rehomed to a corn field somewhere LOL
(thats from Twilight zone...odd kid Anthony used to 'wish' kids into corn fields and a collie dog once too he was evil)

You are 100% right bribes don't work alone...thats why I suggested the bf scent in her cage and HIM taking the dog to obedience class/walks and to parks and play time etc...
I just dont think anything is getting through . ...wondering if maybe she has already made up her mind...another maybe ultimatum situation?
Is that it, pls let us know? If bf gave u a choice of him or the dog yu know that his character is faulted. If not..I return my foot to it's original location and out of my MOUTH!

:D

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 08:25 PM
If I was to stay and speak of everything I have tried this thread will be 10 x's longer. As i said we have been to behaviourists, and training. I am taking what people said here to heart, I am trying all I can do for her. One person tells me one thing, another person tells me another, so what I have started to do is write a list of all what has been suggested here. And crossing off all that has been tried and failed. NOT after just one week I may add. And will continue to work on her. AS SOON as BF comes back, I am calling a trainer that can come to the house and analyze the situation and go from there. But other than doing what you all suggest, I do not know what else to do, I do not want to give up

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 08:26 PM
OH ya, as to why he can not do OB class, he works second job........part time

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 08:28 PM
There are ways around things...arrangements can be made IF someone is willing and wanting to :D

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 08:38 PM
unfortunetly Only I can take her....And get a babysitter for that evening. But he willing to take the night off work when he gets home for the evaluation from the trainer. Only then will her true character be known, in home enviroment. So are you still saying the shirt idea is a good one ?????

tenderfoot
June 29th, 2005, 08:42 PM
I am sorry Luba I forgot about the shirt idea - it was a good one. I think the visual you provided scared me and I tried to block it from my mind. As it is I might have nightmares! :eek:

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 08:45 PM
I asked my BF to borrow his shirt, and he asked ???????, I told him from the info here. He is more than willing to comply.

LavenderRott
June 29th, 2005, 08:46 PM
I am truly amazed.

I know the OP from another forum and she has never appeared to be the "oh woe is me" kind of girl. She works very hard with her dogs.

More than one trainer has seen and worked with this dog and told the OP that it is wise to either rehome or euthanize this dog. NOT A ONE OF YOU HAS SEEN OR WORKED WITH THIS DOG! And yet, you all have great advice on how to cure the dog of it's ills.

The truth of the matter is, if this dog is weak nerved, it may never have been abused by anyone at any time. Weak nerved dogs do not get better, they get worse. Would it make you happy if someone actually got bit by this dog before she considered rehoming or euthanisia? Maybe she should wait until her toddler corners the dog and gets bit? Maybe one of you would like to take this dog into your home and follow all of the advice that you have given.

According to her signature, she has been working on this problem for over a year now. Knowing her, she has worked very hard and done everything she could think of. The bashing she is getting from a couple of you IS NOT warranted.

LL1
June 29th, 2005, 08:47 PM
Toones PMd me her rescue will pay for classes and you can find one that will work with your BF schedule.Id suggest following all her advice and Lubas on the crate.All those who have offerd advice are in agreeement,maybe an all in once post will make it easier.You are not on purpose causing or encouraging these problems.Stop doing that.It is not mean.It will help your dog.Do not feed the dog.Do not go on walks with the dog.Do not give the dog treats.He needs to do all.You need to back off to save your dog.



But on the main one, don't fall into the trap, she will evenually take things from him without you there, wait her out. He should hand feed her too, that helps alot! She will not starve! YOU need to show her.

Your dog is a Rottie cross, but Sheps have the same territorial issues. This is a dog that is scared. That is how they act.

Everything fun and good should come from your man.

ALL food.

ALL treats.

ALL walks.

AND obedience class.

No letting up, no backing down.

Start nothing in life is free, do you know what that is? I can tell you more?

Do NOT baby this dog.

Do not hide her from the world.

Most recent dog like this was Zia. Our rescue took her in when a Montreal rescue ran into issues that aren't important. Same exact thing. Her adopter had to do all the things I posted. And it worked great!! We are so proud of her! And her Mom and patient Dad! And she was with a foster Mom with kids and there is kid in her house now and she is with neighbor kids. A very long haul, but very worth it. You love your dog and she is worth it.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 08:53 PM
OMG really, how can I speak to her and find out information on this. My BF only comes back on july 20th :sad: . I would love to start with her, then he can join :)

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 08:54 PM
I am willing to try anything :thumbs up Toonces, you are amazing

tenderfoot
June 29th, 2005, 08:55 PM
LL1 & Toonces - major kudos to you both!!!!!

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 09:00 PM
just spoke to my BF and he is willing to join me in the training, we will find a babysitter, Angel is so worth it.....Toonces, PM me, and let me know how, and when.....and where

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 09:20 PM
Weak nerved dogs do not get better, they get worse

I completely disagree, pls explain how my dog is improving then?
There IS HOPE for this dog, why do you want to dismiss that there isn't, I don't understand that at all.

I'm glad your bf can take the time off of us p/t job now to go to the class which is offered for free, perhaps the time off work won't hurt so bad if the classes aren't costing you money. Great going BF, we knew you'd come around YAHOOO WAY TO GO!!!! Super dooper (pooper scooper) sorry just couldn't leave it at that!

Yes go get that stinky shirt LOL LMAO

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 09:25 PM
he has never trained her, this will all be new to him, I told him he will need patience. Now to get a hold of toonces

coppperbelle
June 29th, 2005, 09:45 PM
My two cents: First and foremost the child's safety must be your first concern. If this dog has shown aggression towards someone he/she can do the same towards your child. This is not saying that the dog must be euthanized but if possible re-homed with an experienced person/family with no children. Make sure they are fully aware of his/her problems beforehand.
If God forbid this dog ever bit a child and you knowlingly knew it had aggression issues there could be serious reprecussions.

Lucky Rescue
June 29th, 2005, 09:49 PM
I haven't read most of the previous posts, so don't know if this is now relevant - but a good trainer is Julie Sansregret of Guides Canin in St.Lazare.

She uses positive only.
http://www.guidescanins.com/en/cour/cour.html

Luba
June 29th, 2005, 09:53 PM
The problem is with MEN not kids. She won't be able to avoid men her entire life if she was rehomed now would she.

LL1
June 29th, 2005, 09:56 PM
And you have?How is your opinion any more valid?How many dogs have you worked that had this issue,and how many dogs have you 'rehomed'?
I am truly amazed.

More than one trainer has seen and worked with this dog and told the OP that it is wise to either rehome or euthanize this dog. NOT A ONE OF YOU HAS SEEN OR WORKED WITH THIS DOG! And yet, you all have great advice on how to cure the dog of it's ills.

Rottielover
June 29th, 2005, 10:06 PM
ok we found something else to try, now just waiting patiently for toonces

Toonces
June 30th, 2005, 03:48 AM
Good morning Rottielover, sorry I left you hanging there but I go to work very early and had to get to bed, check your pms I am working with GSRT to get something in place for bf and Angel, no need to say thankyou just stick with this and that will be thankyou enough.

Lucky thanks for the link :D

coppperbelle
June 30th, 2005, 07:32 AM
The problem is with MEN not kids. She won't be able to avoid men her entire life if she was rehomed now would she.

And what IF she decided to turn her aggression towards a child? I would never take that chance. I love animals but first and foremost it is our responsiblity as parents to ensure the safety of our children.

poodletalk
June 30th, 2005, 07:54 AM
Any animal can become aggressive towards a child or towards people. Any animal can bite. If the animal has NEVER been aggressive towards her child before, why do we assume it will be? The dog is afraid of MEN, not children.
What is your suggestion CopperBelle to get rid of the dog just incase?!? If thats the case, EVERYONE should get rid of their animals JUST INCASE SOMETHING HAPPENS. God put QUALIFIED RESPONSIBLE trainers on earth for a reason, to help animals who need help with their behavoir.

Rottylove, work with the trainer, do the suggestions that Luba and Tenderfoot said before.Let us know if theirs improvement with Angels behavoir towards your boyfriend.

sammiec
June 30th, 2005, 09:10 AM
More than one trainer has seen and worked with this dog and told the OP that it is wise to either rehome or euthanize this dog. NOT A ONE OF YOU HAS SEEN OR WORKED WITH THIS DOG! And yet, you all have great advice on how to cure the dog of it's ills.

The truth of the matter is, if this dog is weak nerved, it may never have been abused by anyone at any time. Weak nerved dogs do not get better, they get worse. Would it make you happy if someone actually got bit by this dog before she considered rehoming or euthanisia? Maybe she should wait until her toddler corners the dog and gets bit? Maybe one of you would like to take this dog into your home and follow all of the advice that you have given.

I am surpirsed by your response LavR. How would rehoming help this dog if it is truly "wired wrong"?? If a dog that is "wired wrong" is only to get worse instead of improving, how will shipping her off to a new, strange location with no one she knows imporve her condition?
So, you're saying that euthanizing her is the ONLY option?

coppperbelle
June 30th, 2005, 10:22 AM
Any animal can become aggressive towards a child or towards people. Any animal can bite. If the animal has NEVER been aggressive towards her child before, why do we assume it will be? The dog is afraid of MEN, not children.
What is your suggestion CopperBelle to get rid of the dog just incase?!? If thats the case, EVERYONE should get rid of their animals JUST INCASE SOMETHING HAPPENS. God put QUALIFIED RESPONSIBLE trainers on earth for a reason, to help animals who need help with their behavoir.

Rottylove, work with the trainer, do the suggestions that Luba and Tenderfoot said before.Let us know if theirs improvement with Angels behavoir towards your boyfriend.

I will agree that any animal can become aggressive. The difference in this case is that we know that it has shown aggression.
It doesn't matter who she directed her aggression at, the fact is she is showing aggression. The next time it could be towards the young child as I am certain she sees this child as a subordinate just as she sees the boyfriend. I as a parent would not be willing to take that chance. I don't care if the dog is a rottie, a pitbul, a tiny poodle or a golden retriever. It is a parents responsibility first and foremost to protect their child.
I will agree that this problem should be addressed by an experienced trainer however it was brought here. You have all experssed your opinions. I have also expressed mine. Now think about this: how will you feel if this dog turns and hurts the young child?
This dog can be placed in another environment where it can be trained and learn to trust again. A home where no children are around, that is what I am suggesting.

poodletalk
June 30th, 2005, 10:39 AM
Cooperbelle, No I would never want a dog to hurt the child! The dog only showed aggression when he was in a locked cage. We all know a dog on a leash or a locked cage may show more aggression then if he was loose. He never showed aggression when he was loose. That is my point. We don't live in a perfect world for this dog, where theres no children or men. The dog has to get over his fear of men! Rottylover is going to work with a qualified trainer, and her boyfriend will be attending the class. Lets see IF this works.

Rottielover
June 30th, 2005, 10:49 AM
I heard from toonces, and she will be trying to contact a worth while trainer near by for me. She will keep me posted. Until then I am doing what has been suggested, and he leaves today for 3 weeks :sad:

Luba
June 30th, 2005, 11:00 AM
what IF

Geeze I suppose we should all live or lives according to what if's.

What if I get struck by lightening while on my computer....what if I walk outside my door and a swarm of killer bee's attack me...what if my dog goes nuts and chews my foot off!

Come on now, can't we be reasonable adults.

Great news about the training, don't forget stinky shirt and change the crate DO NOT lock her in there, leave that door open.

coppperbelle
June 30th, 2005, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE=Luba]Geeze I suppose we should all live or lives according to what if's.

What if I get struck by lightening while on my computer....what if I walk outside my door and a swarm of killer bee's attack me...what if my dog goes nuts and chews my foot off!

Come on now, can't we be reasonable adults.

If you live your life with this philosphy why tie your dog when you bring him outside, why wear a seatbelt in a car, why put fences around swimming pools? Sometimes it is necessary to be proactive. Children look to adults to protect them. I am not worried about her boyfriend. He can take care of himself. If it were just the two of them I would not have said a word. There is a child involved. This is my last post on this issue. I cannot believe I am the only one that feels this way.

Luba
June 30th, 2005, 02:09 PM
Copperbelle thats just silly stuff now, come on! I get where you are coming from but this dog has not shown and signs of aggression or fear of the baby. The dog is afraid of MEN.

She is going to go for ob training with the bf when he gets back
Lets wish her luck and support her, shall wel! :D

Cactus Flower
June 30th, 2005, 02:14 PM
No no Copperbelle, you're not the only one who feels this way! Rottielover herself said she was worried about the child being in the way if the dog snaps at her boyfriend again.

And I am all for putting the safety of your children first. I do not think this is "silly stuff" at all. You have a valid concern.

Luba
June 30th, 2005, 02:20 PM
why tie your dog when you bring him outside, why wear a seatbelt in a car, why put fences around swimming pools

This is what I considered as silly, because those are obvious situations.

I did not infer the situation with the child was silly.

She was concerned for the child in general terms this dog has NEVER in her words shown any issues with the child. I suggest you read all the posts again, as maybe it was misunderstood. She was wondering WHAT IF the child got between the dog and her bf and the dog attacked the bf....
Well the dog's NOT attacking the bf, she did get upset when was locked in her cage and bf walked by...she felt scared and was trying to let him know hey keep away from me.

ANY child needs to be supervised with a dog around..and hopefully she knows logically she has to do that. However saying that I dont' think this situation is unlike any other with kids and dogs, you must be cautious period.

Cactus Flower
June 30th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Thank you for clarifying the "silly stuff" comment. Apparently I applied it incorrectly. Sorry, Ms. Luba.

I think a spanking is in order.

Luba
June 30th, 2005, 03:44 PM
It's too hot here to spank anything but a big tray of ice cubes
LOL :evil:

LL1
June 30th, 2005, 04:46 PM
Where did you see that?I see her afraid of the BF,not seeing him as her subordinate.That needs to be worked on,yes.
The next time it could be towards the young child as I am certain she sees this child as a subordinate just as she sees the boyfriend.

Rottielover
June 30th, 2005, 07:27 PM
I want to make this clear!!!!!!! she has never shown anything but affection to the baby.....What i said was.......I am more cautios, because of her fear towards my BF, I do not want her to get in the way JUST IN CASE.....precautions are made. As well as today I caught her sleeping next to him.....Then later her fear came again ????????

LavenderRott
June 30th, 2005, 10:54 PM
I am surpirsed by your response LavR. How would rehoming help this dog if it is truly "wired wrong"?? If a dog that is "wired wrong" is only to get worse instead of improving, how will shipping her off to a new, strange location with no one she knows imporve her condition?
So, you're saying that euthanizing her is the ONLY option?

If the dog is "wired wrong" - yes.

Safyre
July 1st, 2005, 01:12 PM
I didn't read this thread till it was 3 pages long, and bite my tongue on this.
Then i saw that Coppperbelle thought no one agreed with her, and I, for one, do.
My comment is, if you are worried in the least that the dog could turn on the baby, even by mistake because it is such an anxious dog, I would say you have two options, rehoming or euthanizing.
I would take the word of a trainer that has experinced this dog, over anyone on this website, who has not experienced this dog. I understand you were comming for advice, and getting some other trainers names and vets names is a great way, to check with them. Try some of the suggestions here, but realize, without someone BEING with your dog, spending time with it, they cannot diagnose it, or say what is best. And some on this website would rather give up a husband than a dog, so take everything with a grain of salt. Use your common sense, and your experience.

Luba
July 1st, 2005, 01:29 PM
This could bring up another complete topic...

Shall we euthanize everyone *humans* that have mental disabilities?
We all know of situations that have made the news or touched our families and friends. People have SNAPPED either because of drugs or mental illness, wired wrong...whatever you wanna call it....They have killed, injured, caused pain to other humans. Kill those with emotional troubles and mental illness?

You may think there is nothing to compare a dog to a human life but to me the concept is the same.

IF IF IF A DOG suffers a mental disorder, do you kill it or try a treatment first? Therapy for dogs, why not....maybe even some form of a sedative whether natural or not. Why not?

If the dog is vicious and aggressive with no chance at having a fulfilling life, that is a different story.

I would still like to see where it is ANYONE in this thread said ANYTHING about her getting rid of her husband?? Maybe you were thinking about Keepers thread Safyre....and that was an innocent little puppy who was misunderstood eating a garden. THIS is different!

*feels like bashing head into wall....but then again I may cause myself to be wired wrong and get pts*
:D

Cactus Flower
July 1st, 2005, 01:42 PM
Safyre, mark this day on the calendar, darlin- because I agree with everything you just said :D.

Luba, she didn't say that getting rid of the BF/Husband was stated here. She was just using that as an example of the passionate views on this site.

And once again, Keeper was not misunderstood for eating a garden. That turned out to be an AGGRESSION issue.

Once you have kids, you'll understand having to put their safety first. Or at least, I hope so lol.

Safyre
July 1st, 2005, 01:45 PM
I said it as an example of the extremes ppl on this website will go to to help animals, getting rid of a human before an animal. It was said on the thread you mentioned, it was suggested on others. As well as convos with other members.

I see what you are saying, no, you do not kill a human with mental issues.
HOWEVER, if they are dangerous in the least, whether it to themselves, or to others, they need to be hospitalized, or in a treatment centre, where they cannot do damage.

In the same way, I feel this dog needs to be placed in a 'treatment centre'. A place where she/he cannot hurt itself or anyone else, and learn how to be a, in human terms 'productive member' of the family.
An anxious dog, could bite. Fight or Flight instinct, we all know the term. If the dog choses to fight, as opposed to flight, then it could end up fighting the baby. In the moment, it has chosen Flight in the past, that does not mean it will continue to do so. there is a very thin line between fight/flight and they have been lucky the dog has gone the non-aggressive route, for now.

I would not risk my child with an animal like this. I feel it is a risk, that can be prevented. I myself, would wonder what exactley the trainer has said, if the dog has been determined unsafe. IF yes, then think about the legality of it.

Edit: Cactus Flower - we agree sometimes! Not sure if you'll agree with THIS post, however, glad we did for a while ;-)

Luba
July 1st, 2005, 01:47 PM
CF the once I have kids comment is completely uncalled for. I suppose you feel that you actually need to 'give birth' to children in order to love them and raise them?

The number of children I have raised because of incompetent parents, far outweigh the number you have given birth to!

Lucky Rescue
July 1st, 2005, 02:10 PM
Try some of the suggestions here, but realize, without someone BEING with your dog, spending time with it, they cannot diagnose it, or say what is best.
I have still not read most of the posts here, but agree with this 100%.

Many people do not recognize or understand aggression in their own dogs - signs of it, what type (fear, dominance etc), or what the consequences could be. Giving advice about aggression without seeing the dog is not recommended unless a specific or single trigger is known, such as food aggression.

In all other cases, a qualified behaviorist should visit the dog and observe it in it's own home.

And I highly doubt that anyone here would ever want to see any child hurt or attacked by a dog, no matter if they have children of their own or not.

The goal is to find a way to keep everyone safe!

Sneaky2006
July 1st, 2005, 02:26 PM
Come on Luba, you've got to know she didn't mean it that way.I suppose you feel that you actually need to 'give birth' to children in order to love them and raise them?Nothing in the world is more special than a child you created. You can love and raise a million children and it won't change that.

Luba
July 1st, 2005, 02:29 PM
That sounds like wonderful news to all the adopted and fostered children out there, WTG Sneaky.

Sneaky2006
July 1st, 2005, 02:32 PM
Why are you reading into that so much?????? Omg, I can't believe it.
So that makes me horrible because my son is special to me and no one will ever come close?

Whatever. I'm done with this.

poodletalk
July 1st, 2005, 02:34 PM
RottyLover has come on this site and said, the dog NEVER SHOWN ANY SIGNS OF AGGRESSION TO HER CHILD! Rottylove lives with this dog 24/7 she knows this dog the best. If she says, this why are we are we doubting her? Can't we give the dog a chance, and let the dog go through his training and see what happens?

Cactus Flower
July 1st, 2005, 02:37 PM
My comment about having kids was not meant as an attack, and I'm sorry it seems it was recieved that way. I still believe what I said, though.

The number of children I have raised because of incompetent parents, far outweigh the number you have given birth to! You wouldn't know how many children I have "raised", but not given birth to, as well. One just got out of the army, and still calls me Mom. His name is Jason, and he moved in with me when he was 12.

So, I am a little offended by your comment.

I am not old enough to have "raised" as many children as you say you have (but aren't you younger than me?). Little Alicia lived with me for one year, but that does not constitute "raising". I hope it helped her along her journey, though, and was a positive experience. Then there was Caleb (who I named, by the way), who was a newborn and was only here for a few months. Again, that does not equal "raising", in my opinion.

As much as I loved these children, nothing is as life altering as having- and raising- your own child. I've said it before and I'll say it again: it will peel back your eyelids in a way that makes you see everything differently. All of your instincts go into hyperdrive. It's truly hard to describe.

I am not taking credit away from you for trying to help the children in your life. I know that you love kids. I also don't want to hijack this thread into an argument about it. Could we take this to pm, if it needs to go further?

poodletalk
July 1st, 2005, 02:37 PM
I agree with you Luba!! You don't have to give birth to children to be able to love them and have the best interest for them. Lets keep this thread to Angel and Rottylover. Rottylover is taking Angel to class with her boyfriends. She is NOT rehoming her or NOT euthanising her. So this thread should be closed.

Luba
July 1st, 2005, 02:42 PM
CF your comment had no 'positive' ring to it period.

My age and your age has nothing to do with the price of rhubarb. I do not need to nor will I explain in further detail the children I have had live with me, raise, love and protect. I KNOW and that is what is important, and so do they!

I will not respond to that issue any longer, it's senseless.

tenderfoot
July 1st, 2005, 05:50 PM
I think this thread has seen its day. It has diminished dramatically from its intent. How about everyone take a break and move onto another thread more worthy of your good hearts and opinions. :grouphug:
Rottie Lover, please start a fresh thread when you have good news to share with everyone - we will all be eager to hear good news. :fingerscr

Safyre
July 1st, 2005, 05:56 PM
poodletalk - no one is saying that the dog has been aggressive towards the baby. What is being said is that is it possible that this dog, who is unstable, due to fear issues, may show aggression towards the child in the future.

I believe they the OP can attempt the things suggested here, however, if a behavouralist has visted with herself and the dog, that advice should be held in higher regard than internet advice.

CF - I have never raised children, and I don't take offence to your comment. Some might jsut be more sensitive for whatever reason.

Luba
July 1st, 2005, 06:05 PM
Safyre, something perhaps you're unable to comprehend but individuals have a right to support and defend their ideas. It does not necessarily mean one is sensitive about the issue, but perhaps more knowledgeable then lets say uhm you!

Tenderfoot you are being the mature one, I agree with you and shall not post on here again until we hear back from the OP. This is afterall her issue NOT ours!

Safyre
July 1st, 2005, 06:13 PM
Luba, you're not worth it.

Rottielover
July 1st, 2005, 07:28 PM
no good news yet, witing for toonces, and BF. right now he is away for 3 weeks

Luba
July 1st, 2005, 07:56 PM
I hope you got the stinky shirt LOL

Rottielover
July 1st, 2005, 08:35 PM
I did.....she pushes it over so she dos not have to lie on it, LOL

Lucky Rescue
July 1st, 2005, 09:15 PM
Okay this is done.