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dominant pup question

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Hi Guys,

A freind at work just got a new puppy, and she asked me to ask in here (she cant seem to join as it wont let her with a hotmail email address)

She says that they puppy seems to have dominant tendancies which she is working on, she has lots of puppy training books but none seem to tell her in great depth what to do, she also said that when she tells the puppy off for biting he seems to go under the bed or near it and poo. she said that he doesnt need to go as yesterday he did it and she had just taken him out and he gone gone # 2. She said that he was biting her hand and she told him in a firm momma voice No. she then ignored him as it said to in the books that she has. she said he sauntered off looked around at her and pooed all under her bed. she caught him real quick and showed him to his paper spot. when she looked under the bed she said that there was poo all over. she is assuming that he is doing it at night when he is whining for attention to get onto the bed (yes she made the mistake of letting him in the bed the first night as she felt bad for him) shes not crate training either. She also said that he throws as she described a temper tantrum sometimes. She said that when she went to the vet with him for his shots he threw one with the tech and the tech grabbed him hard and screamed "that is not acceptable behaviour" and put him in a submissive position until he calmed down, the tech said to her that he was trying to dominate and that it should be stopped and everytime he threw a fit my freind should do as she had done, however my freind is confused as in the book she has it says not to shout at pup. and she said the vet tech really shouted! any ideas ppl. im a cat girl myself. Boy am i glad we didnt get a pup!

Luba
June 27th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Obedience classes weekly for sure, wonderful classes in Toronto

http://www.motherknowsbest.ca/

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 02:25 PM
Thanks for that link she does have him enrolled in petsmart classes starting middle of july, however her question is what can she do for now, she doesnt want to let this dominance issue get out of hand, and she doesnt want her bedroom to smell like poopy LOL

Luba
June 27th, 2005, 02:29 PM
He needs to be taken outside A LOT and when he goes #1 #2 outside he needs to be praised to high heaven and maybe even given a yummie treat.

NO scolding if he goes INSIDE, just take him outside IMMEDIATELY

HE should be left on leash, lead him to the area you want him to use for washroom and wait until he goes. PRAISE HIM no play until he goes washroom :D

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 02:34 PM
Shes doing all that, she takes him out every hour during the day from 6.30 right through till 9 and he has been paper trained.
She wants to know whether he is pooping for attention under her bed? and if it is related to the dominance?

Copper'sMom
June 27th, 2005, 02:37 PM
The NILIF program!! I've been trying it with my pup Zoe(she hasn't been pooping under the bed though! thank goodness!!)

For some reason I can't get the web page to come up! :mad: I'll post the link anyway - maybe it'll work for someone! This was posted in another thread by LR.

http://k9deb.com/socialis.htm

Look at the different pages on this site.

I haven't done the social isolation but with NILIF - Nothing In Life Is Free program has worked great for my pup. What I have done so far is just make her sit before EVERYTHING we do! Going outside she has to sit, before she comes in, sit etc! Sit before everything - especially important if she wants something in particular. And of course obedience training is a must!!

Lucky Rescue
June 27th, 2005, 02:42 PM
How old is this puppy, please?

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 02:46 PM
8 weeks they have had him a week

Copper'sMom
June 27th, 2005, 02:50 PM
HOLY! :eek: He/she is just a youngen! UH......LR........r u there?

Angeleyes1437
June 27th, 2005, 02:55 PM
This pup needs rules, boundaries and limitations. When she sleeps he should not be next to her bed whining. Tell her to invest (it's about 60 bucks) in a childrens playpin... I got one that was a gate, all of the pieces connect to each other so the floor is your floor. Just to limit where he can go when unsupervised. On one side put his bed, some toys, possibly food/water (though some advise against this at night) and on the other put the paper. This way he is limited to this space (if she is against crate training. I'm not against it- but I don't personally use it), even if the gate is next to her bed. When he cries, ignore him... he has the paper. However, if he has all of his shots why is he not going outside now????

Angeleyes1437
June 27th, 2005, 03:00 PM
I'm sorry... where did I read he had his shots... I'm crazy... sorry!! :sorry:

Lucky Rescue
June 27th, 2005, 03:02 PM
PLEASE tell these people to learn a little about puppies! Dominant? He is displaying NORMAL puppy behavior - yes, they bite and chew and pee etc.

She said that when she went to the vet with him for his shots he threw one with the tech and the tech grabbed him hard and screamed "that is not acceptable behaviour" and put him in a submissive position until he calmed down, the tech said to her that he was trying to dominate and that it should be stopped

This is OUTRAGEOUS, cruel and abusive!! Vet techs are NOT trainers and this advice should be completely ignored, unless they want to end up with a dog who is a fear biter.

NO puppy should be handled with anything but gentleness and positive training - ever.

when she looked under the bed she said that there was poo all over. she is assuming that he is doing it at night when he is whining for attention to get onto the bed (yes she made the mistake of letting him in the bed the first night as she felt bad for him) shes not crate training either.

Incredible.......What do they expect if they leave him loose in the house?? He won't be housetrained probably for another 6 months. Do they think he will housetrain himself at 8 WEEKS?

Would they expect a 1 1/2 yr old human baby to be toilet trained? Would they call a 1 yr old who grabs their glasses, or pulls their hair "dominant", or would they think this is normal baby behavior? Would they spank the baby? Maybe if you put it them this way, they might understand.

I just know that unless they start being realistic and educate themselves that this is another puppy who will ruined then dumped.

Here's a bunch of links about puppy stuff. Please ask them to read it carefully.
http://www.wonderpuppy.net/canwehelp/puppy.htm

If they can't or won't deal with puppy behaviors, refuse to housetrain him etc. then ask them to find him a new home where he will be taken care of properly.

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 03:05 PM
She says that he is going outside and has been very quick to pick it up, she does do the whole stopping and waiting for him to go and hes very very good, she has the paper for little accidents inbetween, plus he was paper trained when they got him so shes still weening him off that . She said the only way to describe him going under the bed is out of spite, its like oh i cant bite your ankles and you wont play tug of war with your sock thats fine il just poop under your bed. She is really into training him and stuff but as she said the books arent really helping with this problem, It was just break at work and she loves the playpen idea

dogznfish
June 27th, 2005, 03:08 PM
Coming out of lurk mode

Please tell your friend HE'S JUST A BABY!!!!

What is your friend doing when there is a pee or poo accident in the house? To me, that's saying the pup is afraid of being punished when he has an accident and hides to do his business to avoid the situation. Again, HE'S A BABY!

As for the vet tech, also pass onto your friend that yelling and screaming at an 8 week old pup down is not acceptable!!! Would anyone yell at their 1 year old baby for crying at their vaccinations? That is normal for a pup and is by no means a dominance display!

Patience, Patience, Patience is needed with pups (and IMHO a crate). Please advise your friend to research and read as much as possible. If needed, consult a trainer other than a vet!!

Why come out of lurk mode to respond? Because I have a 10 week old boy at home now and I'm dealing with the nipping and puppy freakouts (as I call them) but for all the work and patience shown to him now, I will have a wonderful boy down the road.

Deanna

Lucky Rescue
June 27th, 2005, 03:12 PM
She said the only way to describe him going under the bed is out of spite, its like oh i cant bite your ankles and you wont play tug of war with your sock thats fine il just poop under your bed.

So he's not only dominant, but spiteful too - all at 8 weeks old.

Papers in the house sometimes, outside sometimes, under the bed other times - and this baby is supposed to understand this??

Please pass this thread on to your friend. Hopefully it will give this poor confused puppy a chance.

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 03:12 PM
Jesus Lucky calm down would you, My freind is a very good person and has has made a very calm and well thought out decision to get this dog, she has read books and had been on the internet for the past 6 months searching for training tips!!!
She is not a bad puppy mommy shes being inquisitive as to his behaviour! she knows that hes not going to be trained in a week, however she is questioning what the vet tech told her and asked me to ask you guys, i must have been stupid to think that i could come on here and get answers without someone jumping down her throat!
According to the books that she has he does have symptoms of dominance. and she wanted to know what it was she could do to curb it. second of all she doesnt care about the poo under the bed she just wants to know if its a sign of the dominance comming through.
Hes not running around the house willy nilly he is supervised but the poor girl has to sleep sometime!
All she is looking for is a way to (a) definatly establish he has dominance issues and (b) find a definative guide (not 3 sentences long) on how to stop it.

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 03:17 PM
My freind didnt really agree with what the vet tech did either and asked her to ease up, then the vet tech went at her saying that if she wasnt firm with the dog from the get go then she would have an awful dog on her hands later. My freind was quite upset about it, and was even more upset when the vet tech took the dog upstairs to clean his anal glands and she could hear him yelping!
She does not punish him for accidents in the house at all, she just cleans them up and moves on, she also praises him for going on the paper.
hes hardly using the paper now and going outside 99% of the time. Ive seen my freind with the dog and she is superb with him, I dont appreciate you all saying she is bad when you have never met her. she is a kind and patient person and is really going to town on trying to make sure this puppy has a good life. all she wanted was a few questions answered!

Lucky Rescue
June 27th, 2005, 03:23 PM
Jesus Lucky calm down would you, My freind is a very good person and has has made a very calm and well thought out decision to get this dog, she has read books and had been on the internet for the past 6 months searching for training tips!!!

I'll calm down when people stop doing stuff like this, thank you. She researched for 6 months and learned absolutely nothing? Amazing.

He poops under the bed because he is a baby who is not housetrained, and is allowed to do this. This is not dominance and not his fault.

I give up.

Luba
June 27th, 2005, 03:27 PM
Oh a little aggressive dominant 8 week old puppy

I can't believe this, are you really expecting us to fall for this one?? You have GOT to be joking!!

Puppy behaviour puppies puppies are BABIES!! GA GA GOO GOO chew up things, pee and poop everywhere!

IT will take MONTHS to teach this dog consistency MONTHS

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 03:28 PM
thank you thats the answer I wanted! that its his housetraining and not dominance. thats all i wanted to know!!! you shouldnt be so quick to jump down peoples throats, dont you remember when you had your first pet and you were all worried that you werent doing it right??? and then shes only listening to a vet tech someone who she thought she could trust.

SnowDancer
June 27th, 2005, 03:32 PM
The snap together play pens are a good idea - her floor being the play pen floor. I bought them years ago at Kiddie Proofers in Toronto, but I know similar pens are now being sold at PetSmart. Unless I missed the dog breed in your post, I know only that the dog is 8 weeks. Breed is important in terms of keeping the pup in the pen. Many pups have enough upper body strength to pull themselves to top of pen and somersault over - happened with a 10 lb. Dachshund of mine - except he was smart enough to lower himself - and with my current Eskimo dog - he was 13 weeks and 11 lbs. and over he went. Re the vet tech - did your friend not discuss her advice with the vet after the incident. Different vets have different ideas on training but this would seem to be a bit extreme. My Toronto vet would not tolerate treatment of an 8 week old puppy in this fashion. She loves new puppies - as do all the vets in her practice and the vet techs are great. So if she really likes her vet she should say something, provided of course that events occurred exactly as described.

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 03:38 PM
Yeah she said that the play pen idea is great shes going to get one at the wweekend. She said that at the vets she was on her own without her partner, and she said that she didnt really take stock until she came out of the vets and thought about it. She said that actual vet was great and even found two hernias he has. She is thinking of calling the vets and complaining but she wanted some advice first.

SnowDancer
June 27th, 2005, 03:51 PM
But what type of dog is it - as I said if the dog is big or strong no point in getting play pen because he will be out of it in a minute and upstairs waiting for your friend. I watched my puppy Eskimo do it from the outside back window - he studied he play pen for a minute and the over he went - the only time he need to study it to grasp his method which gave me time to get to said window. Baby gates don't work for him - and didn't work for the Dachshunds either. I would suggest that your friend wait and speak with the vet personally when the second round of shots comes about - will be soon - better than over the phone.

Britishvixen21
June 27th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Yeah second set of shots are in two weeks, hes a wee small thing a little poodle. so I dont think he could get out. Copper I downloaded and printed the NILF thing its great. good to see that it worked for you, shes going to try it.

Thanks for the constructive advice.

SnowDancer
June 27th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Play pen should be okay for a small poodle - my Dachshund just happened to be a natural athlete even after his extensive back surgery. Could walk the bars on the exam room at the vet's so getting out of the play pen and over a baby gate was child's play to him. Your friend should look at the pens at PetSmart and then if possible at Kiddie Proofers, if possible. I did see the ones at PetSmart when they were first advertised and I had to laugh when I saw them being shown to people with 15 lb. dogs. They were slightly different looking - but about same price - frankly mine were a bit nicer. Now if they only had had a top - but then of course puppy only would have to lift the base from the floor using top as a brace.

BoxerRescueMTL
June 27th, 2005, 06:13 PM
Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. This is THE book to have to understand why your friend's pooch does these things. It explains a whole lotta stuff about canine behaviour, including how dogs don't feel things like spite and never do anything "just to get back" at their owners. People have the habit of imposing human emotions on their dogs and this is a huge disservice to them. Also, the dominance theory is way over used. We have to be careful how we throw that term around so loosely as it is actually rarely the case. The best thing we can do for our dogs is to learn to understand their language and to communicate better with them.

Please tell your friend, and anyone you know getting a puppy for that matter, to buy that book! It is money very well spent and their pooches will thank them!

Also, here is a short article on "dominance". http://www.portovilladogs.com/dominance.cfm :)

Angeleyes1437
June 27th, 2005, 08:09 PM
She says that he is going outside and has been very quick to pick it up, she does do the whole stopping and waiting for him to go and hes very very good, she has the paper for little accidents inbetween, plus he was paper trained when they got him so shes still weening him off that . She said the only way to describe him going under the bed is out of spite, its like oh i cant bite your ankles and you wont play tug of war with your sock thats fine il just poop under your bed. She is really into training him and stuff but as she said the books arent really helping with this problem, It was just break at work and she loves the playpen idea


The play pen idea worked for me, but he should not be loose in the house unsupervised. She is also sending him mixed signals... it's in the house on the paper or out of the house completely! You know? When he gets out of the puppy chewing/pooping/peeing stage COMPLETELY then he can be trusted in areas of the house.

However, I would still put him in the play pen when she is not home until he has matured a bit... for his own safety. Additionally, it's not dominance... he is just a puppy. Lucky Rescue is right, do not listen to vet techs... or even vets really, they are not animal behaviorists.

Angeleyes1437
June 27th, 2005, 08:22 PM
Okay, I just noticed (reading too many posts today) the puppy is 8 weeks. I don't even think he should be outside yet, however... it's not my pup. It takes time and consistency.

Another thing, for those of you speaking about the dog jumping out... I have an American Pit Bull Terrier. He never tried jumping out when he was very little, so the play pen worked great (it's about 3 feet high). As he started getting big enough to come over he did jump over about 4 or 5 times when I came home. I would simply say "NO" firmly (but NOT yelling) and put him back in. This way he knew he was not allowed to jump out... at anytime. We used the play pen until he was about 40-45 lbs. where he could easily jump out, yet he never did... he knew it was wrong. Then one day I left him for 10 minutes without putting him away... came back and he was fine. Did it for 30 minutes... an hour... and then eventually NO MORE PLAY PEN. He is confined to the living room/kitchen when we are not home regardless but at 10 months I have a perfectly behaved little gentleman.

When I get another dog I will certainly crate her, because I won't leave two dogs in the house alone together. Of course I will leave her crated in the bedroom (or in the bedroom loose) so she doesn't feel like I am favoring Maximus. I never crated dogs so it's a concept I didn't really want to use. I know it's great for a lot of dogs, but personally I'm not a fan. I guess because once a dog is trained I like them being able to play, run around and eat even when I'm not home. I would feel bad leaving a dog in a cage for hours at a time. Does anyone disagree with this? My sister crates one of her dogs when she is out and at night (she is still being trained) and it's wonderful for her. Because her Jack Russell is very dominant and they don't want them getting into a fight over something when nobody is home. I know it's a good training method for some... yet I (personally) would avoid it if the pup grew up to be completely trustworthy in the house when alone.

Dogastrophe
June 27th, 2005, 08:59 PM
When I get another dog I will certainly crate her, because I won't leave two dogs in the house alone together. Of course I will leave her crated in the bedroom (or in the bedroom loose) so she doesn't feel like I am favoring Maximus. I never crated dogs so it's a concept I didn't really want to use. I know it's great for a lot of dogs, but personally I'm not a fan. I guess because once a dog is trained I like them being able to play, run around and eat even when I'm not home. I would feel bad leaving a dog in a cage for hours at a time. Does anyone disagree with this? My sister crates one of her dogs when she is out and at night (she is still being trained) and it's wonderful for her. Because her Jack Russell is very dominant and they don't want them getting into a fight over something when nobody is home. I know it's a good training method for some... yet I (personally) would avoid it if the pup grew up to be completely trustworthy in the house when alone.

We let Monty have full run of the house in the first week we adopted him and crate Lucy (17 mos) and Jack (7 mos). Monty had fabulous home alone manners. When we first adopted Lucy we tried her out, figuring Monty would keep her entertained. He wanted nothing to do with her, so she found more interesting things to do, like make oval area rugs out of rectangular ones. When she decided to see what the inside of a chair looked like and what the underside of carpet looked like AND what was behind the door casings, all in the same afternoon, we started to crate her when we went out to work or otherwise.

When we adopted Jack we started him off immediately in a crate. Lucy is at the point now where she enjoys going to her crate in the evening just to get away (we leave the door off when we are home). We have the advantage of my wife working about 5 mins away, so the both get out for a stretch and b/r break at lunch.

It is nice to know that I can come home afterwork and not have to worry about them wrecking the house (either on purpose or by accident) and knowing that they are safe and sound.

Angeleyes1437
June 27th, 2005, 10:01 PM
Yeah, if Max behaved poorly than I would have no choice... so you guys agree with me? I wanted to make sure I didn't have a silly view of it just because I don't have experience with it. Like I said, when I do eventually adopt a second dog, I will do the play gate thing again and see how she is. If a crate is needed than I have no choice, but I would like to be able to leave her alone to roam, just in a seperate part of the house. Just because Maximus is strong guy- though he is wonderful with other dogs and people etc.- I just wouldn't want to chance a quarrel while I am away... after all it's been known to happen with a lot of people. My sister's Pharoh Hound tries to dominate the Jack Russell often and he doesn't put up with it (plus he is resource aggressive sometimes). He is little and can get hurt easily- so they do not chance it at all.

Britishvixen21
June 28th, 2005, 10:12 AM
She said that shes going to get the play pen at the weekend its a great idea. As for him being outside the actual vet said it was ok as its just in the grounds of her apartment, said to keep him away from other dogs and ppl. which she has. also she wonders what is it that she is supposed to do when shes training him to go outside not have the paper down? like what is this inbetween stage? he goes outside 99% of the time now except the poopy under the bed. and the occasional accident. but does she now get rid of the paper as she is still training him to get excited and let her know when he needs to go away from the times she takes him out?
NO telling me what a bad mother my friend is please its unnecary and im sure this site was set up to help ppl not belittle them! constructive answers only please.

Dogastrophe
June 28th, 2005, 11:17 AM
If she is free feeding, move toward planned feedings. When free feeding you cannot accurately determine when the pup ate and when they will need to go out. By giving planned meals it is easier to work out the timing. i.e. if the pup goes to the b/r 5 mins after eating, then you take him out 4 mins after. Basically set him up for success. Run a housetraining internet search, there are plenty of articles that deal with diff. situations.

The easiest way to stop the bathroom under the bed is to not allow the puppy to get under the bed, i.e. block it off. However, this is only a stop gap solution as the puppy will discover new places to go. The best solution is to not allow the puppy free run of the house.

If using papers in the house and trying to train for outdoors, the pup essentially has a choice on where to go. Step one, remove the papers and try to get him out as often as possible. If he does have an accident blot some on a paper towel / newpaper, take the pup outside, place the messy paper in the pee area, wait to see if the pup will finish. Make the messy paper disappear from the lawn.

Every time a puppy does their business in the house, it is the fault of the owner not paying attention / not picking up on the hints, not the fault of the puppy.

My pup (now 7 mos old) was adopted at 5 mos and had zero housetraining, which I suspect was part of the reason he was abandoned in a city park (his ppl did nothing to work on this). First two weeks, even after having many many trips outside, he would go where ever he felt, then he eventually started to go near the door. In all cases it was a result of us (1) not paying attention to him and (2) looking at him and saying to ourselves that b/c he was just out 10, 20, etc mins ago, he shouldn't need to go again so soon. He is now into his 2nd mos of housetraining and still has the odd accident, and I wouldn't expect anything different.

Tell your friend to remember that, like potty training kids, some dogs will get it quicker than others. At 8 weeks old, he is going to have plenty of indoor pees before he catches on. But, in most cases, he will catch on. Patience and consistency is key. :pawprint:

jessi76
June 28th, 2005, 11:49 AM
As for him being outside the actual vet said it was ok as its just in the grounds of her apartment, said to keep him away from other dogs and ppl. which she has.

Why? I thought 8wk old pups have plenty of the mother's antibodies still, and as long as they've started their vaccines, should be fine. (i could very well be wrong, i'm no expert)

we got our pup at 8wks, and his foster family started paper training. we preferred to go the route of crate training, not paper. before he goes in his crate it's out to pee. when he comes of the crate, it's out to pee. we had a few accidents, but he did get it.

what about puppy play dates? we socialized our little guy from the get go, a tired puppy is a GOOD puppy!

Britishvixen21
June 28th, 2005, 12:28 PM
I wish my freind could just join this site herself LOL!!!
Vet said that no other dogs until all shots done just to be safe, ppl ok but dont overwhelm, plus my freind is pretty protective. on the way to the vet a guy stops and says can i hold your dog, and my freinds like no im sorry he hasnt had his shots yet I dont want any germs passing. The guy says "I dont have germs!" and my freinds like "well he could give you germs" and hes like I dont care, so she says I dont care your still not touching my dog, he called my freind a B**ch!
another lady said "Oh he is so cute can I say Hello?" this is on the way home Hes all tired and hot and bothered. so my friend says you can but please dont touch him hes tired and he just wants to be left alone. the ladys like "i cant say hello and not touch him" so my friends said well I guess thats to bad then.
My friend appreciates that ppl love a puppy but jesus respect her wishes LOL.

jessi76
June 28th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Vet said that no other dogs until all shots done just to be safe, ppl ok but dont overwhelm, plus my freind is pretty protective.

I'd look for a new vet. one that puts an 8wk old pup into a submissive position because of puppy behavior, and then says limit people/no dogs until shots are finished would raise a red flag for me, actually the first alone would raise the flag. puppies need socialization - and need to be exposed to new people, situations, and other dogs as soon as possible (if they have STARTED their vaccines), IMO. Which is why the puppy school I attend takes pups at 8wks old. If I waited till my pups shots were finished he'd be 16+ weeks before starting socialization. Just my opinion, but I think it's a bit late. (however, better late than never)

Britishvixen21
June 28th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Shes seriously considering it, she sent a letter of complaint to the vets yesterday about the tech and hasnt even heard anything, ive recommended her to my vet who is fantastic.

tenderfoot
June 28th, 2005, 04:27 PM
How did I miss this one?
BritishVixen - you are so kind to take all of this time to help your friend. It would be great if she could join.
Most everyone has had wonderful advice to offer - the biggest thing to remember is this is an infant in puppy terms - soon it will be a toddler and very soon a teenager. We can't expect the puppy to be successful in learning how to live with humans in a house unless we take the time to teach them. There is nothing wrong with sleeping with a puppy - it actually gives them much needed security. However it is beneficial to balance that with crate training. If every dog in the US were crate trained most of the shelters would be empty. Crates (when used properly) offer the pup a safe haven, keep it out of trouble, keep it safe, abate seperation anxiety, and aid in housetraining. It is a wonderful tool when used properly.
Please alert your friend to the dangers of over vaccinating her tiny pup too early. A pup should have immunity (from mother) up until 12 weeks - then it might be appropriate to vaccinate against ONE virus at a time. I would start with Parvo and then Distemper. Vets give a '3 in 1' or '5 in 1' shot to these tiny bodies and often they are not improving the immune system but hindering it. They also give the same size shot to a Great Dane as to a Toy Poodle - no consideration is given to the size of the dog. Giving a dog a Titer test to determine the need for a shot can cost more up front but it can save money and heart break down the road.