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pregnant dog

blkkitty
June 25th, 2005, 05:28 PM
I was just wondering if anyone knew the way to determine the whelping date. I know it is about 63 days but is it from the first tie or the last? Please advise.

thanks for your time :) :ca:

Eleni
June 25th, 2005, 06:00 PM
you probably wanna ask your vet this they can tell you, and they can let you know if the dog is ok to deliver the pups and how many pups and such


Eleni

Safyre
June 25th, 2005, 09:08 PM
If you are getting into pure bred breeding, then you would have a mentor who could answer this question for you.
Your vet, who the dog should have been seeing the entire pregnancy should also be able to answer your question.

If you are not breeding pure bred, champion show dogs, then don't breed. Get her spayed now.
There are enough unwanted dogs in this wordld, we don't need more.

blkkitty
June 26th, 2005, 09:21 AM
I don't think it is up to you to tell me wether or not I can breed my dog. If you don't know the answer to my question S. then don't reply at all. This is the worst forum room I have ever been in. There seems to be no one in this place that knows anything other than ask your vet or mentor. Thanks for nothing. :mad:

Lucky Rescue
June 26th, 2005, 09:34 AM
If you don't know the answer to my question S. then don't reply at all

Sorry, but this is not a help desk, but a discussion forum and if you choose to post here, then anyone may offer opinions or advice, even if you don't like it.

Someone breeding dogs should know all about conception, pregnancy and gestation before breeding.

You are breeding your untitled, unhealth tested dog to a similar dog. This is backyard breeding, is not responsible, reputable or ethical, and is not approved of here.

There are sadly many forums on the net filled with irresponsible backyard breeders like you. I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding one of them.

Wudjah
June 26th, 2005, 09:42 AM
You should count from the first tie...as you have no way of knowing when conception actually took place, and puppies can actually be conceived on all ties if you can imagine. Keep in mind that puppies can safely be born anywhere from 57-59 days on.

You should get your dog to the vet for a checkup to make sure everything is going OK and do a lot of reading/research on what to do if problems arise (signs of labour, ongoing labour with no signs of puppy, puppy stuck in birth canal, umbilical cord care, etc etc). Some breeds of dogs are not natural whelpers and may require planned c-sections. If you don't find out now, you could be going in for an emergency c-section and that is a lot harder on the bitch or puppy.

You should up your bitches food intake as well - choose a good quality puppy food for her. I don't know her size or breed so your best bet is to do an online search on food guidelines for pregnant bitches or ask your vet.

And you're right, it's nobody's business if you let your dog have puppies, but keep in mind that there are both mix & purebred dogs being killed by the thousands at shelters around our country. Sadly there are not enough homes out there for all of them - and for every puppy sold/given away another must die at a shelter. So while it's your choice, I would recommend that you have your girl spayed after this litter. There are many health benefits from this as well.

And, just out of curiousity, what kind of puppies are they?

Jenny (former lurker)

SnowDancer
June 26th, 2005, 09:52 AM
I do not understand (well, really I expect I do) your annoyance at being told to pose this particular question to your vet. I have said it before and I will say it again, it is one thing to ask other forum members to share their knowledge and experience with particular pet issues - but in many cases a vet should first be consulted. Should a pet have to be rushed to the vet for emergency treatment that could have been avoided by early detection, I can assure you that the vet will not want to hear that the pet was "diagnosed" over the Internet.

Wudjah
June 26th, 2005, 09:54 AM
While I am relatively new here (at least new to posting), I would have to say that many of you here are passing up great opportunities for educating people. From experience (I have worked in a shelter for 15 years) I can tell you that people won't listen when they feel they are being talked down to or treated rudely. By sending the OP away, actually recommending she go and speak to other byb's, you are giving away the chance that you can actually save her dog from a life of producing litter after litter.

The way I see it is that she must care somewhat about her dog if she took the time to come and ask people she felt were more knowledgable then her. I think it's great that she came to a reputable forum RATHER then go to a byb site. By answering her question politely and free from judgement, it might have lead to others that she could have been educated on - such as keeping the pups with the Mom for a full 8 weeks and not giving them away for free.

I don't like "helping" byb's and irresponsible owners anymore then the rest of you, but if people like us don't help, then nobody will. I hope everyone will think about that before the next time you are inclined to jump down someone's throat and send them away just because you don't agree with them.

Jenny

SnowDancer
June 26th, 2005, 10:02 AM
I refuse to waver from my point that there are cases when a vet must be consulted - particularly when a pet is obviously in dire straits yet a person takes the time to open an account and wait for responses. Irresponsible I am sorry to say. Every situation is different but there are situations where immediate vet treatment is required - then a poster can join and discuss the vet's diagnosis. A person can be educated later.

Safyre
June 26th, 2005, 10:51 AM
Wudjah - I have actually had the same stand point as you for most of my time on these boards. I try to help out when I can, even with topics that others discourage (declawing being a big one).
BYB's annoy me because of being irresponsible. They breed dogs without knowledge of how to breed. It is plain Ignorance.
I didn't know the answer to the question, so I felt it best they the OP get pointed in the correct direction, vet or mentor. For me, the term Mentor means a responsible breeder, breeding titled animals. At no time did I say to go to another BYB for advice on how to breed.

As for Blkkitty - almost no one on this website breeds dogs(I *think* there is possibly one breeder if memory serves), so there is no one that will have the answer for you. Anyone that would answer that question would be doing so.. *gasp* as a mentor! That is why mentor/vet is always suggested.
You obviously knew, by your response "There seems to be no one in this place that knows anything other than ask your vet or mentor. Thanks for nothing." that this was the type of response you were going to get, so my bet is, you're a troll.
Have a nice day :)

Lucky Rescue
June 26th, 2005, 10:58 AM
Wudjah, if you check this poster's previous threads, you'll see people did attempt to educate her before she even bred her dog. She was given information and advice, all of which she ignored. You'll see that showing her dog "doesn't interest" her and that no health testing for genetic problems was done.

I have a hard time understanding why she came back to ask this question when she knows how we feel about irresponsible breeding and didn't like the answers she got the first time. :confused:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=121192#post121192

badger
June 26th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Nice call, LR. In which case, I have no problem saying to Blkkitty - even if some of you do - to P*SS OFF. I mean, how much energy should one expend on these people. All they want is for someone to hold their hand and feed them information (much of which is available elsewhere on the internet, on reliable sites), to be used for what? For pushing out more unwanted dogs. So sorry, if I had the information, I wouldn't give it.

blkkitty
June 26th, 2005, 11:56 AM
actually I have had my dog tested and she checked out fine. Just because I don't want to show my dog does not give anyone the right to talk down to me. And that also doesn't mean my dog is not worthy of producing great puppies that may be show quality. None of you people know me enough to judge me. I talked to my vet and all he said was 63 days after breeding. I meant to ask him if it was the first or last tie and conversation change and I didn't get around to it. I thought forums were here in case people needed help. Unfortunatly for me the breeder I got my baby from is no longer contactable other wise I wouldn't have to eat ***** from some of you people. All reputable breeders started some where. and I assume they have all been called a byb before they became "reputable".

LavenderRott
June 26th, 2005, 12:16 PM
Glad to see that you went and got tests run for any and all genetic problems inherent to Bichons.

Maybe I am being thick here, but why would you come here to ask this question after the less then warm reception you got when you inquired about breeding your dog in the first place.

All of the reputable breeders that I know followed a very different path then you are. They had years of experience with the breed before they considered one of their dogs worthy of being bred. They showed and titled several dogs in both conformation and obedience, paid heavily for genetic testing, learned how to read bloodlines, and had a mentor. Not one of them started out like you did.

Since this forum, as you well know from your other thread, is full of people who are involved in rescue work and have dogs that have been rescued - well, I guess if you want to come here for breeding advice, you are going to have to "eat *****" from some of us. I am also sure that if you do a search online you will find the forum that the puppymillers of the States frequent and they would just love to help you out. Heck, they will even tell you how to perform a c-section on your dog on your dining room table.

twinmommy
June 26th, 2005, 12:19 PM
I assume they have all been called a byb before they became "reputable".

Yeh, right.

Next thing you know, someone in it for the money will suddenly decide to cut all profits and become a VOLUNTEER!!!!!


OH!! LOOK A PIG JUST FLEW BY!!!!

do you already have homes for those puppies? Adoption contracts with s/n clauses? Is your bitch capable of delivering or have you booked a c-section?

I don't mean to be rude, but I hope you are not as naive with your dogs care as you seem to be with your notion that the world needs more puppies. If you've already placed yours, those people could've rescued dogs from shelters--only thousands of wonderful dogs-puppies too!--to chose from.

Too bad it doesn't seem that you're interested in learning.

goldenblaze
June 26th, 2005, 12:30 PM
All reputable breeders started some where. and I assume they have all been called a byb before they became "reputable".

I do not agree with you! Go visit a puppy mill and see the hundreds of puppies sick waiting for someone to save them.

"Reputable breeders" know what they are breeding and how to bred, they would never ask the questions you have, you are a "BYB" and you sound proud of it :sick: Shame on you :mad:

Read this from the Ottawa Citizen, they think they are reputable breeders too. :confused:
Out Of Control (http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/ottawa_citizen_article_on_pawsrus.htm)

If you care about animals you would want to help them, sigh this petition and show your surpport
Stop Puppy Mills (http://www.petitiononline.com/3450/petition.html)

Wudjah
June 26th, 2005, 01:20 PM
I don't have time right now to go back and read this person's posts so I'll take all your words for it. Thanks for setting me straight. Obviously trying to educate her didn't work. She knows that the people here don't agree with her decision and I agree that she should go elsewhere to find information. Not to mention, somebody that is seriously interested in breeding and planned it should probably know the answer to such a simple question before the breeding actually took place. I mistakenly thought that this person was plainly an irresponsible pet owner whose dog probably got bred by somewhat of an accident (*accident meaning not really caring whether the dog got pregnant or not because I am a firm believer that there are no real accidental pregancies when you choose not to fix your pet on time).
Anyways, thanks again and hopefully blkkitty will have better luck in a forum with her own kind.

Jenny

Lucky Rescue
June 26th, 2005, 01:31 PM
actually I have had my dog tested and she checked out fine.

What did you have her tested for?

Mockingcat
June 26th, 2005, 01:36 PM
???

So....

You didn't know how to get your dog to mate, and you asked us.

She apparently finally mated, and you can't be buggered to spend $20 on a book which answers your questions, and you ask us.

When your dog needs a C-section or has a dead puppy inside her, should we expect you back?

Luba
June 26th, 2005, 01:37 PM
If this is the worst forum you've ever been on then why is it that you remain and return. Simply because some of us/most of us may have opinions or information that you find offensive doesn't meant the information is not valid.

It's like the IRS auditing you, you don't like it but it's true and you have to face the music.

I'm not sure what your concern is if everyone is giving you advise. Either take it or leave it, but you can't discredit their opinions because they speak of things you dislike.

There are far too many unwanted, abandoned, abused, neglected and killed pets every year to bring any more into this world.

shannon1233A
June 26th, 2005, 03:18 PM
PLEASE, I DON'T WANT TO BASH YOU, READ THE WHOLE POST :)

Sorry, but on one hand you propose to be a reputable breeder as opposed to a byb, yet the questions you've asked from the beginning here, are simple questions that anyone who REALLY CARES about dogs, of any breed have knowledge about. I think that may be why many here are suspicious of your reasons for CHOOSING to breed. And choose you did, as you stated early on you had already chosen the male! Did you not make any attempt to educate yourself on the breed, it's genetics and the simple things such as spaying or breeding and the pro's and cons of each decision? If you took the time to find a male, you should have taken the time to find out more about everything involved and possible consequences of breeding especially the most simple facts involved of the aforementioned.

I understand your non interest in showing, it's not for everyone. But that lack of interest in showing does NOT translate, and is not equal, does not equate , to the non interest of what's in the best interest for your dog, and someone who can't care more for their dog, can hardly care about the other dogs of that breed or the breed in general.

You definately should have investigated and educated yourself more on why you wanted to breed your pet and how to breed responsibly with everything that comes afterwards before deciding to do so. You should make that decision (to breed or not to breed) much like you do the decision of getting pregnant and having children of your own or not.

Lastly, you say your breeder have moved and is unavailable. Strange, you have an internet connection, so I assume you know how to email. If you don't know your breeders email address, that I can help you find. There are also other ways to find and reach them in this age of technology.

So please, if you are as you claim, responsible, make a call and visit to your vet with a list of questions, contact your breeder, start finding good homes for the puppies NOW, there's much info on how to choose a good home for your puppies available, including contracts and what should be included and what to look for. Make sure those pupies got to respectable, loving homes and accept responsibility for them for the rest of their lives, be willing to find them suitable homes throughout their lifetimes if the original homes don't work out.

YOU'RE NOW RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR LIVES AS WELL AS YOUR OWN PUPS!

Although I doubt you will, pls keep us updated, I'd hate to wonder if those pups found loving homes :mad:

levimh
June 26th, 2005, 03:57 PM
I just want to say that if I personally were to start breeding a dog, I feel that I wouldn't need to ask any questions on here. I would be out there buying books, getting pamplets, researching, researching, researching, talking to vetS and other breeders and researching some more. I wouldn't just pick any stud that was around either.

Here are some links that might be worth your time to read:
http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/dbb.html
http://www.heathview.ca/articles/1.htm

Safyre
June 26th, 2005, 08:48 PM
I do plan on breeding later on in life probably in 10 yrs or so when I am able to afford doing so.
When I do that, I already have my mentor, the breeder my dog is from, has already stated he will take my under his wing show me how to show my dogs, and help me learn to breed. I won't have to come to a forum to ask questions.

Wudjah
June 26th, 2005, 09:16 PM
I'm in the same position as Safyre...my new pup is hopefully coming home mid-July and I will start showing her mid-2006. My mentor is also her breeder, who is beyond reputable in my opinion. She will have all health testing done that is recommended for the breed PRIOR to breeding and of course will have to prove herself to be a good enough specimen to breed, both in the show ring and temperament wise. There's a lot more to responsible breeding then to just throw two dogs of the same breed together.

Jenny

Safyre
June 26th, 2005, 09:24 PM
I have to wait for a new pup for .. a very long time. She female I will be MOST LIKELY getting him from was only born on April 6th. lol!
He lost his other breeding female (heart attack while carrying 9 pups) and therefore I have to wait even longer than planned.
So in 2007 I will get my male and 2008 he will be shown by my breeder or myself and then bred. This is all providing Scarlet turns out to be champion material and healthy to breed.

Wudjah
June 26th, 2005, 10:01 PM
Safyre - what kind of puppy are you getting? That's horrible that he lost the female and I can just imagine how hard it's been on you to wait!!
I'm getting a pug...my plan of action is to start showing her once she reaches a year old. She will hopefully be bred on her third heat (approx. 2 years of age), after of course she finishes and is health tested. The breeder will get first pick puppy back and I will likely keep one from the litter to continue showing.

Jenny

mona_b
June 26th, 2005, 10:39 PM
Just great.Like we really need another BYB..... :rolleyes: :evil: :mad:




Wudjah,if I were you,I wouldn't wait to show her at a year.It should be done earlier.Just ask shannon.She shows her GORGEOUS Mal pup,Kenzie. :thumbs up

Safyre
June 26th, 2005, 10:54 PM
I am getting a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retreiver, or toller for short. I have one as a pet right now, not being shown in any manner, she does not fit conformtion (runt), and she has a bit of car fear so, taking her to train for agility has been out of the question.
It was terribly hard to loose Annie, my breeders last bitch. It was her first litter of puppies. I was planning on getting one from her second litter. He had a waiting list for her since she was a year old, and even with 9 i couldn't have gotten a pup from her first litter! She was loved :) I called her 'shirely temple' as thats who she reminded me of.
My plan will be to get one from Scarlett's first litter, he does not breed till 2 yrs. I get pick of litter, a boy, and his call name will be Silas. He will be shown to championship before I breed him.
I want to further this breed, I am in love with it, and its not well known, which to me, is a good thing.

Eleni
June 27th, 2005, 06:47 AM
Safyre - what kind of puppy are you getting? That's horrible that he lost the female and I can just imagine how hard it's been on you to wait!!
I'm getting a pug...my plan of action is to start showing her once she reaches a year old. She will hopefully be bred on her third heat (approx. 2 years of age), after of course she finishes and is health tested. The breeder will get first pick puppy back and I will likely keep one from the litter to continue showing.

Jenny


third heat? your dog wont be champion that quickly. how will you know the quality of the dog if shes not been proven in the ring?


Eleni

Wudjah
June 27th, 2005, 08:17 AM
Mona - It is in my breeder's contract that she will not be shown until she is at least one year old. This is because there are some dogs out there that finish as puppies but then as they mature they don't turn out all that nicely. She wants to make sure that any of her dogs that have champion tacked on the their names are actually worthy of it.
My pup will begin training at a young age and then hopefully be all ready for the show ring next May.

Jenny

Wudjah
June 27th, 2005, 08:23 AM
Eleni - As I said in a previous post "She will have all health testing done that is recommended for the breed PRIOR to breeding and of course will have to prove herself to be a good enough specimen to breed, both in the show ring and temperament wise."

I'm not sure why you don't think a dog can become a champion by the third heat. That would make her anywhere from 18 to 24 months old. All of the dogs that my breeder has shown have finished in two weekends (6 shows). If for some reason she doesn't turn out and does not finish, then obviously she will not be bred.

Hope I've clarified everything for you.

Jenny

Eleni
June 27th, 2005, 08:25 AM
became champs in 2 weekends??



Eleni

Wudjah
June 27th, 2005, 08:37 AM
I believe you can get a maximum of 5 points per show (someone correct if I'm wrong as it's been awhile since I've shown). I also think there is something in there about showing under at least 3 judges. It is not unheard of for a dog to finish it's FIRST weekend out (3 shows).

Jenny

db7
June 27th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Dogs whelp 65 days +/- a day from the surge of Lueteinizing Hormone (which triggers ovulation). The day of whelping has no correlation with when the dog was mated.

db7
June 27th, 2005, 08:59 AM
It's refreshing to see a breeder caring enough to take the time to show a dog after it has matured a little. Most rush through to get the Ch. out of the way so they can move straight into cost recovery - breeding.

That being said, A ch should by no means be considered the test of whether a dog should be bred, despite the original purpose of conformation showing. Showing can be manipulated and there is a lot that can be done to influence the success of a dog that has nothing to do with its quality as a breeding dog.

Any dog good enough to breed should earn its ch. in short order with back to back wins. If it can't do that it shouldn't be bred.

DogueLover
June 27th, 2005, 09:20 AM
There are no guarantees that a puppy that is sold as "show quality" will ever win in the show ring. Some of these dogs will never have a championship title behind their names.
If you have rare breeds ( as I do ) showing is also a lot more expensive and more travel is involved as they are not CKC recognized. Getting them a championship involves a lot more than other breeds as you have to find shows where you can actually show them.

I don`t know that I agree with the OP about breeding her dog, however, it is her choice and there is really nothing we can do except explain ourselves to her. If she gets offended and figures this site is worthless she will breed her dog anyway ( heck she more than likely will no matter what) and if that is what she decides then all we can do is say we tried. Going into attack mode won`t change her mind, only reinforce her decision.

The other day I looked through the paper to see what dogs were for sale, there were 3 columns of Bichon, bichon, shih tzu and whatever other crosses they come up with. The puppies were being sold as "purebred bichon shih tzu" not sure how you do that but whatever, and some of them were coming from "kennels".

I am glad that there are no bans on breeding purebred dogs. I would have had a hell of a time finding my two, being that they are a rare breed.
Hopefully, the OP will think it through and research all she needs to know about breeding and raising a litter and is aware of all the expenses involved, not to mention the risks. If she does decide to breed, I hope all the puppies find loving, forever homes, and that she puts a clause in the contract that if for any reason, the new owners cannot keep the dog that she will take them back. ( this is pretty easily done by microchipping your pup and having the breeders name as the first contact.)