June 18th, 2005, 04:08 AM
Today I stopped by a friend's house, and was sitting in the living room chatting. She told me that her daughter was getting ready to go to the mall.
Her daughter eventually came out, stopped in front of me and asked: "How do I look?", with a big proud grin on her face.
This girl is 15 years old.
She was wearing low cut jeans that stopped JUST above her pubic line, a tight half shirt that displayed her belly from said pubic line to mid ribcage, and enough makeup on her eyes that I was amazed her eyelids could carry the load without slamming shut under the weight.
The shirt declared, in pink: "Baby Girl".
So there she was standing before me, awaiting a response to "How do I look?".
I did not say "Like a stripper", or "like a child prostitute", or "like a future statistic". I didn't say any of the things that came to mind. Instead, I allowed my jaw to drop, and turned to her mother.
Her mother moaned "Oh honey you're not going to wear those shoes, are you? I thought we agreed that you'd save them for the family reunion. That's what I bought them for, to go with your blue skirt....." (etc.)
Alrighty then. A few minutes later, I made a graceless, stunned exit, mumbling something about having to get back to my errands (which was actually true).
I hadn't seen this friend since her daughter was 9, and she just moved back into the area. I have to admit that I left there reconsidering many things. I weighed the respect I had for her as a parent, and how much I might have just lost. I worried whether or not I was being unfair. I thought I could be just hopelessly old fashioned. I wondered if I am totally clueless, since I don't have a daughter. I considered that I was being terribly and unfairly judgmental.
But in the end, I couldn't get past the disgust- and fear- I felt, the idea that someone would let their daughter walk out the door dressed that way.
What do you all think? Surely this is not a unique experience. Have any of you been in this type of situation before? How did you react? Do you have an opinion about the way young girls are dressing these days?
June 18th, 2005, 06:08 AM
Hmm...at 15 I could say that is fine. Any younger and probably not. At 15 my parents pretty much stopped telling me what to do. That's when I got my navel peirced. I dunno. Maybe the parents trust their child. I know you can't do much about the jeans, as they all come like that now (and personally, I would rather wear jeans at my pubic line then ones at my waist, way more comfy for me) but maybe the shirt was a little to skimpy. I feel makeup is a personal expression...let them put as much on as they want. If they look stupid, that's their fault.
June 18th, 2005, 08:47 AM
Lol, CF, I'm dreading the mid teen years with my girls. I'm afraid by that point that there will not be much left to the imagination. I would have had the same reaction. My mom used to say to me that if I wanted the latest trend, then I would have to pay for it out of my own pocket. Needless to say, I didn't have too many of the latest trend. If also find that the way people dress in public is a bit dismaying. So I guess I'm in the somewhat old fashioned pool as well. :rolleyes:
June 18th, 2005, 09:05 AM
I do not think your opinions on this matter are old fashioned. I can't stand seeing young girls dress this way either, it really makes me ill.
I have a niece who thinks she is 20 something, she's been dressing like that and worse since she's 14! She would even wear the thong with the low cut jeans... and of course the thong had to stick out above the jean line, gross. I thought the whole purpose of a thong is so you DON'T see your underwear line? If that's the case, why would you wear one so it's above your jeans? For attention I say, and the only kind she's going to get is negative at that age, I can't see any good come of it.
I was at a 16th birthday party for a friend of the family, there were 3 15 year old girls there, I wanted to smack em.
I guess they discussed what each other would be wearing cause they were dressed exactly the same. All of them had on the shortest skirt possible, if you even want to call it a skirt. You could see their asses while they were STANDING!
If you're old fashioned, I guess I am too.
June 18th, 2005, 09:18 AM
aren't you glad you have a 'mancub' instead of a 'girlcub'???
I personally agree with you, I don't want to see a child dressed like she is out for tricks. . . .
. . .but in the same token, its important espeically at that age to fit in. That IS fashion, that IS what the girls wear, that DOES help her fit in.
When I was that age I remember my mom trying to get me to buy all my school clothes at Zellers (cheapo department store) I was DEVASTATED!!!
I wanted $85 Ikeda 'lock up jeans' (there was a 'lock' as the button) my mother said the $20 'Lee' Zellers specials were just as good.
Needless to say I got picked on.
Its truly a catch 22.
June 18th, 2005, 09:57 AM
As the mother of a 17 year old daughter, I can tell you, it doesn't sound like she was dressed too badly. The makeup wouldn't have made it out my front door though.
You can thank Brittany, Christina, and the rest of those bubblegum pop divas for the fashion of the times.
My daughter has been wearing tank tops for going on two years now. In winter she puts a jacket or long sleeve button up shirt over them. I don't think there is a soul in the world that hasn't seen her belly button. But... She is a very good girl and rarely in any kind of trouble. Any boy that thinks she is easy picken's based on her wardrobe is quickly disabused of the notion.
June 18th, 2005, 10:09 AM
Ahhh, dang it! I had a long reply written and then my internet connection died on me! :evil:
Anyhow, I think I would have reacted the same way. IMHO, a lot has been compromised in the name of "fashion" and "fitting in". I grew up in those $20 Zeller's specials. I wasn't picked on. Maybe some people were making fun of me behind my back. I wouldn't know. I wasn't paying any attention to them. :p
My nephew once wore a pair of jeans so low they were literally riding off his hoo-hoo. His silk boxers were, of course, way up around his waist. I laughed at him and gave a little tug. The jeans wound up around his ankles. He was mortified. I said, "See how easy that was?" Now, imagine if some freak in a crowd did that to that girl with her little thong? :eek:
June 18th, 2005, 10:58 AM
I had to reply to this, I myself have 3 girls, and 2 boys. :o
I grew up with 3 brothers and I was the only girl. Needless to say there was lots of boys in my house at any given time while I was growing up.
I do admit that when I was 14 or 15 I did try to dress sexy like that, ( I can assure you that is why she is dressing that way) young girls want guys to notice them. Unfortunately they think you need to show all your skin to get a guy. :confused:
Well, as hard as I tried to get out of the house dressed like that, my dear mom was always one step ahead of me. I never left the house showing anything that would have been considered inappropriate. :rolleyes:
Then again my parents let me know, that while I lived in there house I go by there rules, OR move out. :sad:
Now as a mother myself "With 3 girls" I can see how you have to be strict with girls. Peer pressure is so bad now, if kids are not tought to be there own person then we have no individuality amongst our kids anymore. :sad:
My kids don't get the expensive clothes, but they are happy with whatever it is they do get. :grouphug:
June 18th, 2005, 12:05 PM
Ok, I am only 21, and the only time I wear tops like that is when I am at home, and it is extremely hot out. But I NEVER wear jeans like that. I am fairly modest, and think the only person who needs to see what is under my clothes (or should be) is my husband. Heck, I wear shorts and a tank top as a swim suit most of the time.
I don't think you over reacted by no means. If she was my daughter, I would tell her that she isn't leaving the house until her belly wasn't showing, put more appropriate jeans on, and lightend up the make up. The shoes, being that they were for a special occasion, I would make her take them off too.
And if and when we have a son, he is not going to have his waist of his jeans down to his knees!
Gosh, my kids are just going to love me. I am really old fashioned! I am alot like my grandmother was with me..... So I am way back there on the "proper" way to raise a kid..... LOL.
June 18th, 2005, 12:08 PM
( I can assure you that is why she is dressing that way) young girls want guys to notice them. Unfortunately they think you need to show all your skin to get a guy. :confused:
That is very true, but they don't realize that not all boys are attracted to girls who dress like that......
June 18th, 2005, 12:43 PM
I wouldn't say you're being old-fashioned - and I'm a guy for crying out loud!!!
I was at the Calgary Stampede last year - the self-billed "Greatest Outdoor Show On Earth" - which is the biggest 10 day party going and was rather astounded by the number of apparently 14 and 15 year old girls walking around with giant eagle and dragon tatoos on their lower backs, obviously exposed to the world by low cut jeans.
I guess its none of my business but geez Louise what's going on with some parents?
And CactusFlower, you can't be considered too old-fashioned after sticking up for that old Navajo woman a few months back, which was positively Martin Luther Kingish.
June 18th, 2005, 12:50 PM
Rick, I agree with ya on that one. I was raised in a family that disapproved of racism. I grew up knowing people for their personality, not their skin color. And personally I thank anyone who sticks up for that native americans, because event though I am 1/16th native, I still get crap.
June 18th, 2005, 12:54 PM
Although I am appalled at what girls today are wearing - I also think that as a parent, you have to pick your battles. I have a cousin-in-law (is that even a word??) whose 14 year old daughter showed up at her grandparents retirement party in low cut jeans with a rhinestone thong showing above them. I just about freaked out, but her parents weren't worried at all. Since I don't have any daughters (just a son), its hard to say what I would and wouldn't allow. I understand the thing about trying to fit in, and wearing what is in fashion and unfortunately the tight, low cut jeans with bare bellies are in style. But I remember when I was in high school, the fashion was for your jeans to be as tight as you could possibly get them (I had to lay on the bed, suck in and use a comb on the zipper to get them zipped up). I remember those jeans just about cut you in half - in fact we all called them cookie cutters. So, is it any different? All parents have to decide what they want to fight about, and what they don't. To me, the wardrobe my son chose wasn't enough of an issue to fight about. When he would try on jeans, I would make him jump up and down - if they didn't fall to his ankles, I'd allow him to have them. He also wanted his ears pierced and a tatoo. It didn't really matter to me (I have 3 tatoos - so I can't really say anything there) but his dad was really against him getting his ears pierced - he wasn't all that concerned about the tatoo - go figure. When Jeff was 15, my husband took him to the tatoo parlor and they got matching tatoos on their shoulders. When Jeff turned 18, he got his ears pierced. I think that if your child is basically a good kid, and has a good moral base - then it shouldn't matter what they wear or how many piercings they want. And if your kid is not a good kid, then their wardrobe is probably the least of your worries. Our parents probably hated our clothes, and their parents hated their clothes, etc., etc. Can you imagine what the parents thought when teenage girls first started wearing bikinis?? LOL This fashion trend will pass just as they all do, although it is becoming more difficult to buy normal jeans with a normal size zipper.
June 18th, 2005, 01:28 PM
I was at the Calgary Stampede last year - the self-billed "Greatest Outdoor Show On Earth"
As was I - Was horified at the crowd's excitement of the bull's obvious pain. This kind of entertainment is really :sad:
June 18th, 2005, 01:39 PM
Aw, thank you Rick C :) .
Well I sure appreciate all of this input. So much to think about. And YES I am so glad I have a "mancub", AND that he thinks those pants that ride below the boxer shorts are silly. Woo hoo!
You are right. Brittany Spears and the like have been SUCH an inspiration, fashionwise. But then, I think it all started with Madonna and the "Boy Toy" thing.....like a "virgin"?- I think NOT. Like anything BUT a virgin.
My Mom wouldn't buy me the 40 dollar jeans, either. Told me to buy them myself. So, at 13, I got a job. Took my first paycheck to the store and bought those brand name jeans. After assessing what I had left to spend, I swore I'd never pay that much for a pair of jeans again. Wonderful lesson (thanks, Mom!).
It's also true that most of our parents were horrified by our teenage fashion choices. Mine might have been awful (pink mohawk, etc.- so much for wanting to "fit in") back then, but it was never revealing. I guess that's what is so hard for me to accept.
Huge hugs to those with daughters. I had no idea about the extra challenges you were facing.
June 18th, 2005, 01:43 PM
I had this same conversation the other day with a fellow pediatrician. We see all manner of clothes on kids these days and while I grew up in the era of mini skirts, they were never as suggestive as these are today. I do want to let young women be creative but sometimes the skirts are so short that there is NOTHING left to the imagination and the young women do in fact look like they are on the troll for customers of some sort. I see across socioeconomic levels so it is not even a question of education - it is as someone previously said fitting in and looking like say Brittney Spears et al. Given that the boys do not dress similarly, there is also a gender gap. Maybe we need new role models for our kids. Growing up, I wanted to be Marie Curie and romanticized about living in some hovel studying away. I still wore hot pants and mini skirts tho so maybe these young women are OK, lol That said, I do not see young women who attend our local Sacred Heart Academy (considered the best girls' achool here and my alma mater) wearing such clothing to school so there is something to be said for school uniforms. (That is my middle class genes that did not allow me to become the hippie I would liked to have been, even if they were before my time a bit, lol).
But I do not think C Flower that you are wrong. My bf and I went to a restaurant earlier this afternoon and the waitress was wearing an outfit that featured a short skirt and profiled what was underneath it. I was a little shocked given that this is a good [place. Anyway... that's my 5 cents on the subject. And I do not think of myself as "old fashioned" either, :)
June 18th, 2005, 01:56 PM
All I can say is that in more and more rape cases, the man's defense is "how can she not be asking for it wearing clothes like that?" It's a cop out and they never win, but it should make girls think. You might be trying to impress one guy, but there are hundreds of other guys, old men, nasty filthy men, all watching too.
If I had a daughter, she'd have more self respect than that. If I had to pick my battles, that would be one of them. I don't want a 15 year old to get hit on or worse by people way older than her. When you're 15, you think you know all there is to know, and even a year later you know how wrong you were. 15 year olds are by far not wise enough to know the consequences of smaller actions.
My cousin who was 15 not long ago told me and my boyfriend that she felt left out because all her friends started wearing little shirts and stuff and they were getting all the boys. My boyfriend answered, "You don't want THOSE guys."
June 18th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Re: All I can say is that in more and more rape cases, the man's defense is "how can she not be asking for it wearing clothes like that?" It's a cop out and they never win, but it should make girls think. You might be trying to impress one guy, but there are hundreds of other guys, old men, nasty filthy men, all watching too.
As a young med student (not to suggest I am old now, lol), I worked in a sexual assault center (we called them rape crisis ctres in those days) and I have never bought the argument that how you dress corrlates with rsexual assault. The ground breaking research by Amir shows that less than 3% of rape occurs amg people who do not know one another - and prostitutes can be raped! So I do not want to digress but just had to comment on that.
But I agree wth your overall tidea that wearing those kind of clothes sends the wrong message. I just think most of these kids do not even think about that - they jut want to be kewl.
June 18th, 2005, 03:15 PM
Hey CF my niece is always dressing this was...as do her friends. Some schools have dress codes so that no mid rif is showing and deep neck shirts are out but I have to say that if I were that age I'd be dressing the same way. I think maybe what I wore at that age would be equal to what they wear now. We think we're adults at that age so we try to behave like them.
It's the industry (fashion) that targets the kids because they'll buy it or get their parents to.
I don't think you're old fashioned, it is rather revealing but so were mini mini dresses and skirts in the 70's and the no bra era...so in some ways I think we should give the kids a break yet in others I say....hey I don't wanna see your thong LOL ;)
June 18th, 2005, 04:56 PM
CF,no you are not old-fashioned,I was lucky enough(I think!) to have 3 boys and it was years ago,with them it was Levis jeans and Adida runners,unfortunately money was tight and usually they ended up with Bi-Way stuff :D
I see girls coming home from catholic school,skirts as short as they can possibly be,I always think of Kristen French and what happened to her...so much for school uniforms!!
At 15 yrs old,I do believe a parent should have a say in what the daughter wears and how much make-up,my husband would die if our daughter went out looking like a hooker,luckily we have no daughter :thumbs up
As for the boys and their droopy pants,I just think they look ridiculuos and worthy of a good laugh!!
The problem is,you think you know your teenager,you've given her a good upbringing,good values..but all that quickly goes out the window with a group of peers...
June 18th, 2005, 05:20 PM
I don;t think the reaction was old fashioned, it bothers me to see teenagers dressing soo sexy.
Because I am young myself, Ihave the advantage that if they are related ora close friend that I can do so with, i sit them down and teach them how to PROPERLY apply make up. They are jsut trying to look good ... you teach them the nice smoky eye, the great lips, and their make up will be better.
As for the jeans, low rise is in, and they are much more comfortable than ones at the waist.
As long as she is not dressing like this to school... I myself, don't have a big problem with it.
June 18th, 2005, 05:36 PM
In my discussion the other day, we DID compare the mini skirts of old with what is worn today. I do not think there is any comparison. My mom used to sew skirts for me - a metre could get you an entire skirt. But they were hardly suggestive in the manner that these colthes are. These kids do indeed look like street walkers, alas. I can't say I am shocked by it and I sometimes think my generation was worse in terms of drugs et al - I do recall what it was like to be a teen and I do see them plus my young students almost every day so I do know how they think - but I just think the wardrobe leaves a lot to be desired and nothing to the imagination. I have to say once they get to university, they tend to either wear less suggestive clothing or opt for something that makes a statement (like the Gothic kids). There are those who seem to have low self esteem and even as they age wear the most outlandish and provocative outfits that scream to be looked at. That I find raher sad actually. One would hope that by that stage they would have learned to have become their own person.
Anyway, nuff on THAT topic, lol
June 18th, 2005, 06:04 PM
lo, ah this brings back memories.... ah ya a bunch of old fuddy duddies (only joking).
it was only 15yrs ago that my poor father would rage around the house, desperatly screamign that his daughters (poor bugger had 2) would not leave the house dressed like street walkers, lol, lol... poor bugger never won...
we would just drop the offending skirt out our bedroom windows, get changed into something 'dad would approve of' and then pick up our skirt on the way to our mates houses.
how many hours did my sister and i spend up the park hitching each otehrs dresses up with pins, or smuggling makeup down tothe busstop :D
with girls the harder you protest generally the harder they try to do it...kids are supposed to offend, streach the imagination and testthe limits, its their jobs..
and if you buck too hard it could turn and bite you in the bum- my parents stoped my sister seeing a boy, well she just did the dnagerous thing and snuck out at night to see him, and what do you know, she ended up getting preggers to him a few yrs later, now if my parents had only accepted him, let him hang around she would have found out what a looser he was well before the preggers stage, instead of thinking he was cool and mysterious and my parents disaproving which made it al l the more wanted and cooler to her to do. the amount if times i have seen the parents work from the 'oh i like it area' that is the parents pretend to approve then the teen gets bored of it 'the faze' and moves on....
and if youve taught the girl all the true ways oflife and tricks about men and such and safety, you should not have much to worry about, you are allowing them to push the boundaries whlie being informed and safe...they will thank you for it...
let them push their boundaries, it will give thm lots of freedom of expression which can only realyl assist in making them great ppl. :D not to mention happier teens whcih is a hard feat in itself...being a teen is hard enough, if thier not hurting any one or thier selves i cnat see the harm in it...
and CF dont let this affect the friendship, you may jsut find that this mum has tried and such, and this may be her happy medium...it takes all types and it may jsut work for her....just be there to help out if needed, courses for horses and such....
June 18th, 2005, 06:08 PM
I teach junior high school, so I spend most of my time with girls and boys in this age range (12-15)... There are several things that bother me about the way a lot of these kids are dressing.
In junior high school, kids are EXTREMELY aware of social hierarchies and it is almost, without fail, the girls who are dressed in the most revealing clothes that are at the top of the pecking order. The more modest girls are just not as popular, in general. I think that's rather sad... and I also think that we have some girls who are not exactly comfortable dressing in skimpy clothing but feel that they must in order to fit into their social group. Teenagers are soooo socially motivated that they don't really think about what message their clothing or their behaviour sends as long as it helps them fit in with the group they want to belong to.
I also really sympathize with the male teachers who are trying to work with these kids, to teach them algebra or whatever, and constantly have to worry about being accused of looking, when it's nearly impossible not to! As a female teacher I feel very comfortable telling a teenage girl that she needs to pull her shirt down to cover her bellybutton or up to cover her cleavage (haha, or both ways at once, which causes a real problem!) ... but if I was a male teacher I would feel extremely uncomfortable with this.
Lastly, I don't think it's fair to the male students in our building. They are already struggling with their adolescent body changes WITHOUT all that distracting scenery!! Seriously, how are they supposed to focus on Canadian History while the girl in front of them has a thong poking out the top of her skin tight jeans??
School dress codes (which used to be rather limiting from what I understand) are now reduced to "No 3B's (boobs, butts, bellybuttons)". I think it's kind of sad.
It's the media dressing our children and making them grow up MUCH faster than they need to. I don't blame our young girls for dressing the way they do. It's what they are taught they need to look like in order to be cool. I admire the young people who posted here saying that they refuse to be controlled by trends and media. It's not an easy thing for most.
June 18th, 2005, 06:38 PM
I hate how young people are dressing just so they can be fashionable and fit in!
I agree that it is the media's fault but I also think that parenting has a lot to do with it. My aunt is so superficial and cares so much about appearances that she will spend huge amounts of money on name-brand clothing and all the in fashions for her 2 pre-teens. My 10 year old cousin is already starting to wear clothes and makeup that are setting her up to dress exactly like the 15 year old girl the OP described. My aunt is encouraging her daughter to conform and it makes me SICK!
I'm 21 and I'm usually teased for my Mum raising me in a plastic bubble, she was beyond over-protective! But guess what? It made me a stonger person and never did I feel the need to conform to peer pressure and be another clone. I was the native american girl who wore the Zellers brand clothing and I survived all the bullying that went along with it. So I have ZERO understanding and no respect for young women who dress like trash to fit in.
June 18th, 2005, 07:17 PM
Mel I love your post you always are a hoot LOVE YA!!!!
June 18th, 2005, 07:21 PM
15 year olds are by far not wise enough to know the consequences of smaller actions.
Prin, I tend to agree.
And CK, I also realize that they don't think about it, they're just trying to be "cool". But I think that's where parenting should be filling in the blanks.
Mel, I was struggling with it not affecting our friendship, and decided to get to know her all over again and learn her views about all of this. She's been gone for so long.
LisaLisa- How wonderful for you to give us your perspective on this, being that you are exposed to it every day, as a teacher. You are surrounded by this age group. I hadn't thought about it making the male teachers uncomfortable, but WOW :eek: great point! In this day and age, where you can bring up a lawsuit out of spite if your teacher gives you a bad grade.....this is a scary thought, indeed. Don't get caught "looking" at your scantily clad student. No, indeed.
I've always said "Don't put it in the window if it is not for sale".
June 18th, 2005, 07:45 PM
Cactus I do not think you are old fashion! We were raised that way and I will raise my kids that way! I think that the only one who should she what you have inder your clothes is your husband! I know most people think I am old fashion that way! My thing is these girls all dress this way and than they wonder why they get raped! Just my two cents worth!
June 18th, 2005, 08:45 PM
This is just another Sign of the Times
We will find things that bother us as controversial at the moment
but change is inevitable.
June 18th, 2005, 08:52 PM
I have worked with victims of sexual assault and not one of them asked for it and it offends me (if you have ever helped these women, you would understand how hurt it makes me feel to see people proposing anyone is "asking" for it). I do not like the way they dress and to say it's on the trashy side is putting it mildly but rape is a crime of violence and if anyone will attack someone, they need to be prosecuted, NOT the woman for what she wore. Now, that is old fashioned and sexist thinking imho! I know no one here means me or anyone else ill will in promoting these thoughts but I have worked for so long in this area (all my adult life) that I thought we were really mivung beyong blaming the victim in rape cases. It frustrates me that I may be wrong!
Would you blame a child who has been sexually assualted because she wore a skimpy dress? Ir a teenager with no guidence at home? The fact is assualts occur most of the time between adults who know one another. It is extremely rare to see people who are attacked out of the blue and it has nothing to do with what the woman wore but with the attacker's violent and illegal behaviour!
<Taking a very deep breath!>
I think we all need to be less judgemental in making these assumptions. I do wish parents were there more for their kids but the fact is we ourselves have helped to create a society where it seems more acceptable to dress any way you want. I do not approve of the provactive pieces of clothing I see (They hardly can be named skirts) but if we stop buying the products that use these images to sell their wares, we might have an impact. That and parental guidence may help, I hope!
June 18th, 2005, 10:24 PM
I don't think that anyone here is saying women who dress this way are "asking for it". I think they are worried that someone ELSE might think that they are.
This is often a rationalization that the perpetrators use to justify their actions. "She must have wanted it, being dressed the way she was...".
Does it make it right? No. But sadly, it makes sense in some of their heads. Perhaps it takes the "wrongness" out of their actions, in their way of looking at things.
Here's maybe another angle: Lets say two women are walking down the street. Their physical characteristics are pretty much the same. One is wearing very revealing clothing and heavy makeup, and the other is dressed in conservative business attire and conservative makeup.
A car full of "perverts" is driving by. Who are they going to hoot at? Who are they going to stop and proposition? Will they be surprised- perhaps even angered- if the scantily clad woman turns out to be modest and proper? Will THEY feel that she misled them in some way?
Do conservatively dressed women ever get sexual comments/attention from men? Yes, of course.
But if you don't want that kind of attention, it sure does help to dress accordingly.
If I were to say that a woman shouldn't be wearing tight revealing clothing to her job as a courtroom attorney, nobody would get upset- because we all understand that that is not the appropriate environment for such an outfit.
Yet we get quite uptight when someone suggests that the same clothing is inappropriate on the streets that are full of predators, perverts and people who just generally have trouble with impulse control. This woman would actually be safer wearing that outfit in a court of law, wouldn't she? But we can't say that it's unwise to wear on the streets?
Again, I'm not implying that women who dress this way deserve to be attacked or abused, or that women who don't dress that way never are.
Ok, enough said. I didn't know this thread was going to turn into a sexual assault argument, lol.
June 18th, 2005, 11:58 PM
If you put sex on a plate SOMEBODY is going to grab at it. And 15 year olds who have never been assaulted don't realize how bad it is until it happens. I doubt if a teen who was sexually assaulted would continue to wear the skimpy clothes. I highly doubt it, which also says something about the message they KNOW they are sending. My point is they just don't know to whom they are sending it to and that is why parents should step in.
And CK, I'm not blaming the victim, I'm just stating what the new excuse for rape is. And yes, all women get hit on, but the woman in a business suit tends to get hit on by a different genre of men.
And I know first hand that most rapes happen when the woman knows her attacker. Even people we know very well can get the wrong idea or mixed messages from us. Even if the 15 year old who flaunts her body KNOWS a guy and hangs out with a guy all the time, she still has more of a chance of getting raped by him than the ones who are covered up. It's a tease to the guy all the time, who himself is dealing with raging hormones, and if 1/9 guys will rape a girl in his lifetime, then who knows what will happen the minute she gets drunk? It's more of a trophy for teen boys to bang the hot girl than it is to do the girl who is not as visible.
In my opinion, what the teens are wearing these days sends out a clear message that they are a piece of meat with no boundaries. That plus the fad to be super skinny and practically helpless? I would rather my daughters hate me right now than have to deal with a practically permanent incident of sexual assault.
June 19th, 2005, 06:00 PM
yay CK, you hit the nail on the heard...
i have worn some pretty revealing stuff in my time and gone through revealing fads, and luckily i can say i have never ever been atacked (obviously not all attacked doen this way, as we have said it is often someone you know, im strictly talkin the streets here), thats because i was a smart girl, my parents taught me right, that is- i didnt go walking around alone at night, i didnt go to dangerous areas or dangerous environments, i had self respect so i am not about to do anything not nice, and i knew what boys were about, and that most were after one thing, i wore what i wanted and evner ended up in a bad situation.... dress does not equal sexual promiscuity or chances of rape....
i think if anyhting we need to teach some of thiose girls a bit more common sense (not about dress but about putting yourself in dangerous environments, yes i know it can happen other ways but this eems to be a big issue). and we need to be open about sexuality and promisucuity and the reasons for it, that is teaching a girl that sleeping with boys does not equal love or attention and that sort of stuff....not to mention working on esteem issues etc....
and if a boy cnat keep it in his pants based on what a girl wears or cant focus in class i odnt know how he deals with living in the modern world, ...well i think the boys parents need to adress some seriuos issues, i think its time we taught our boys to be real men, that is to allow woman to be woman and do what they want wthout fear of persecution or harrassment becuase they are equals, i dont balk when a man wears skimpy shorts, i dont find it attractive but i treat him as an equal who cando as he will...
when i was at school boys were distracted even when we were in uniform, boys get distracted by girls at that age, seriously even if the boys went to schools with girls in neck to knees they will still be distracted, they hormones rule at that age
and ever generation has been subject to fashion, peer pressure and trends, this is jsut todays, mine was cindi lauper skirts and lace gloves...
and i think were all a little responsible for letting this materialistic society get out of control, jsut watch the video clips on the saturday morning and you will find we are allowing society to tell our girls that flesh is good and that all the talented girls dress that way, so surely society as a whole has some responsibility for modern fashion....so dont be to hard on them, the only part that bothers me about kids today and their dress is i find it downright tacky and i certainly think a tight pair of hipsters does nothing to flatter the bigger girls out there who often wear tiny shirts with them, now to me thats shocking and the parent should be talked to...teachign a girl to dress for her weight is far more important to me, it looks bad and is not flattering and i can imagine certainly not an ego booster......
June 19th, 2005, 06:02 PM
WAY back in my high school day, my parents sent my sister and I to an all-girls private school. Gotta tell ya, at the time I hated the uniforms, but liked that I didn't have to decide what to wear every day. The nuns used to walk around with a ruler and measure the skirts to ensure that it was no more than 1/4 inch above the knee. If it was, you got sent home and suspended. It was nice to have no real "competition" in the clothing department (although at school dances, etc, the designer duds sure came out)
Nowadays, I kind of want to walk around with a mirror and SHOW some of these people (not necessarily just the teenagers) exactly what they look like.
My personal philosophy is that if I jump up and down, and something jiggles (and at my age, a lot more jiggles than it should), it's getting covered up.
June 19th, 2005, 09:06 PM
If I were to say that a woman shouldn't be wearing tight revealing clothing to her job as a courtroom attorney, nobody would get upset- because we all understand that that is not the appropriate environment for such an outfit.
Actually, there was a courtcase about this recently. I think it was in Windsor, Ontario,Canda, but I could be mistaken. iget American and Canadian news channels. lol
She was told by the Judge that her v-neck shirt was inappropriate for the courtroom. I can't remmeber how it ended up. They showed the owmens outfit that day, it was not revealing in the least. There are different standards for courtroom, but some of them take it too far.
ANYWAYS, I think, simply, parents need to take more time with their children. Teach them consequences to actions, teach them respect for themselves and others, teach them saftey measures when outside alone/with friends.
Go shopping with your teen... allow them to buy the clothes they want, as long as you are allowed to pick out items they wear as well.
I dunno, I think a lot of the problems with children now come down to the parenting.
Yes, there are girls all over the TV wearing these things ... but who is allowihgn their children to watch that? The parent. If you allow them to watch Xtina's dirty Video, you gotta sit down and explain to them why this is acceptable/unacceptable.
OK, Pistons are on so I'm done now lol
June 20th, 2005, 12:56 PM
Excellent thread! CF, I think you are most definitely old-fashioned. LOL
Kids today are bombarded with nudity and sexual appeals on TV, what do you expect? I wouldn't blame the kids for dressing up like that, I would actually blame the parents for allowing their kids to dress up like that. On the other hand, different generations view degrees of nudity and sexuality differently: what was deemed inappropriate in my parent's days was OK in my days. There is a judgement call for sure, but in any case, parents would need to be a lot more involved in their kids' daily lives.
Lead by example is what I believe in.
June 20th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Unfortunately, parents can only do so much! MOST kids -and remember I deal with kids every day - in their teens listen to their peers more than they do their parents. In the end, we do revert to the values we were raised with but during that time, most kids want to be popular. You are correct about the example we set - many parents are simply not there for their children and never miund leading by example, they do not lead at all, sadly.
I even know one parent - a lawyer - who was incensed when her daughter was sent home from school recently for wearing short skirts. She was upset at the school. Now she herself would NEVER wear anything like that but while it was not my place to say so, I would have used the opportunity to explain to my daughter WHY it was not a good idea to wear inappropriate clothing.
This is a societal problem tho and one in which we treat young women differently than we do young women.
June 20th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Imho i dont see the problem with it i dressed simular to that i still were hipster jeans with a short top. Im certainly not asking for it i think everyone is entitled to were what they want when they want!
June 20th, 2005, 02:58 PM
Sigh. At the ripe old age of 33 I am officially an old-fashioned fuddy duddy. You aren't alone CF. :p
I just happen to think you gotta put kids'll-be-kids aside on some things.. you know like the 15 year old girl in the hot pants that read: U KNOW U WANNA across the rump? I ask, in more correct English, what - dear child - is it exactly that you are implying that we want to do? Hmm?
I actually asked one particularly young person this at a neighborhood gathering.. I think her little itty bitty hot pants read: U WISH. So I said "Okay.. what is it that people are wishing when staring at your bottom?" And she said "Huh? Oh. I guess you wish you had a butt like mine." And her nearby friend who proclaimed herself to be infinitely wiser said "Uh-uh Lisa - they wish they could pinch your butt." Giggles all around followed. I found it all very sad...
It's irresponsible to let kids walk around dressed like this with absolutely no clue what they're doing. This isn't about victim-blame or hypothetical victims of violent assault (I can talk about that - I was one.. and I didn't even have the hot pants) at all -- it's quite simply about self-respect, self-esteem, and self-awareness. You know - teaching girls about what's really attractive.. the differences between sexy and attractive.. and the differences between provocative and sexy. I won't want my daughter to grow up feeling like the path to sexiness involves borderline public nudity or if she doesn't look particularly good in a thong and a halter-top then she'll never be attractive to anyone.
Oh - and food for thought: The human brain continues to develop until about age 23. This means I'm not as old as I think I am, right? :p
June 20th, 2005, 03:05 PM
I think Britney and Christina are only partially to blame for what's going on. Someone has to explain to kids that what Christina and Britney are wearing in their music videos and on stage are called "costumes", and that on a "normal day", they wear baggy T-shirts and jeans, just like the rest of us. ;)
Pags, you're bang-on with your comments. :thumbs up
June 20th, 2005, 08:25 PM
I'm an old-fashioned fuddy-duddy too, I guess. Actually, working on a college campus has pretty much gotten me accustomed to just about anything. We have student employees who become very relaxed around us and talk and joke about other students in front of us. It's about respect. They really have none for the girls who dress like hookers. They laugh at them among themselves. These kids are pretty knowing about peer pressure, etc. They see these girls as insecure and, let's face it, easy. Are they popular with the boys? Of course! They get asked out, then dropped if they didn't put out! These boys are not rapists. They're just looking for easy pickings! I would hate to have a daughter being talked about the way I hear these kids talk. If they don't respect themselves, they don't get respect from others.
June 20th, 2005, 10:06 PM
Ok well I guess I'll speak for us younguns lol. I do dress with tight hiphugger jeans and short tank tops. I do not wear skirts but that is because I hate my legs. I'm 20 and have been dressing this way since I was about 14. I greatly respect myself and think that if a person is not going to respect me because of the way I dress then I don't need or want their respect. I did get asked out a bit but in no way am I promiscus. I think the way you dress is part of freedom of speach. I dress the way I do because I enjoy it, it is in no way to make anyone else happy or upset.
June 21st, 2005, 01:27 AM
But surely you don't dress like that to attend school or go to work. I mean there ARE appropriate ways to dress. As much as I'd love to wear jeans to work, I cannot get away with it. I do manage to let my inner child - hmmm, maybe I am still a child, lol - wear cartoon characters but I get away with that b/c I work with kids, lol If my EA or nusring staff showed up in jeans, I would not send her home but I'd certainly ask them to wear clothes respectful of the patients and their families. I personally do not care what you wear anywhere else but if you dressed that way at a workplace, I would consider it an affront or lack of respect.
And I am a feminist who thinks people should war what they feel comfortable in but neither do I think we need to adverise we are open for business as women. I have to confess I once wore a revealing dress to an event where a major Church official would be at because I was furious with him for his attitude toward women. In retrospect, I was young and foolish - I would have influenced him more in my dark navy suit. I WAS after all educated at the Convent of the Sacred Heart but it was a rebellion thing.
June 21st, 2005, 03:13 AM
I learned recently that the young'uns think that flaunting their bodies IS feminism. For the old folks, it was the right to be equal. For the next generation, it's the right to do whatever you feel like doing. To have the choice whether to flaunt your body or not. To be a stay at home mom or not. Being forced to have a career is not feminism either. And that is what the next generation is about.
June 21st, 2005, 01:23 PM
My daughter is almost 18 and yes she wears hipster pants and tank tops, but I don't find her discusting. She is very tiny with a nice figure and there is nothing hanging out in the boob reagion and you cant see her pubic area either. She is an honor roll student and has only had one boyfriend, who she is still with. Her and I are very open and if I didn't like something she was wearing I would tell her. I don't think that she dresses like this for boys to notice although I'm sure they look, it is the style of the times. As for make up she wears very little, she has a natural beauty that goes with being young (no wrinkles yet) and beautiful blond hair that is also natural, so even if she was wearing a tent boys would look. What I hate to see is girls that are on the larger size or older women wearing these types of clothes and everything is hanging out YUCK. It would be like me walking around in a pair of thongs with a tiny bra and a lace dress over top and no one wants to see that. LOL
June 21st, 2005, 01:41 PM
I know that hipster pants are all the rage. And tank tops, too, for that matter. I have seen some that are very cute, and completely tactful. But this girl's pants were REALLY low. They couldn't have gotten any lower without her pubic hair showing. They either weren't regular hipsters, or she was wearing them even lower than they were meant to be.
And the teeny top she was wearing stopped barely below her bra. She was showing so much more than a bit of tummy, and it was all skin tight (which might be a good thing in a practical sense, actually, because if they were loose- one wrong move would expose something). All of that, plus her young age, just disturbed me.
I'm torn about these comments regarding overweight people wearing hipsters and belly shirts. To be completely honest, when I see this, part of me says the same thing you all have ("Oh honey, you really shouldn't be wearing that"), BUT another part of me says "Good for you! Skinny girls don't own the rights to these clothes! You've got nothing to be ashamed of, and YOU can wear whatever YOU want, too! You go, girl!".
I think that there is a bit of a double standard in saying "Women should be able to wear whatever they want!", and then adding "....except if they are overweight".
June 21st, 2005, 01:56 PM
A little flubber is ok but I mean some of these girls must be hitting the 200 mark and I just think that they don't have a full length mirror to look into after they are dressed. I understand what your saying especially about the girls age, my daughter doesn't wear her tops that high about a few inches above her button that all. Like I said though if I didn't like what my daughter had on I would tell her.
June 21st, 2005, 02:07 PM
II'm torn about these comments regarding overweight people wearing hipsters and belly shirts. To be completely honest, when I see this, part of me says the same thing you all have ("Oh honey, you really shouldn't be wearing that"), BUT another part of me says "Good for you! Skinny girls don't own the rights to these clothes! You've got nothing to be ashamed of, and YOU can wear whatever YOU want, too! You go, girl!".
I think that there is a bit of a double standard in saying "Women should be able to wear whatever they want!", and then adding "....except if they are overweight".
I honestly find it GREAT when chubby women show off their bodies. I would rather see a "fat" girl with a lot of confidence than a skinny girl with no confidence. If you can be chubby in the society we live in and have confidence, WOW. Go Girl! :thumbs up
June 21st, 2005, 04:53 PM
But surely you don't dress like that to attend school or go to work.
actually I do wear it to school and work. At school I'v seen teachers dressed this way. As far as work, we do not see the public AT ALL, it's all phone work. My boss often comes in in her running clothes or PJs, so it's not a big deal there. Don't missunderstand me, I dress apropriate, but I think that dressing that way at school is fine but not in highschool, but once your in college I think people should be mature enought to not be bothered by it. As far as work, if I had to see public I would dress accordingly, but I don't have to worry about that.
June 21st, 2005, 09:25 PM
I would rather see a "fat" girl with a lot of confidence than a skinny girl with no confidence.
Very impressive statement!
June 22nd, 2005, 09:15 AM
Being twenty i do have the short skirts and low cut tops...but I keep them for the weekends. I work in a insurance agency and alot of the men I work with are very "old fashioned" meaning if they want coffee I go get it...If I am in the middle of something and they want lunch I go get it. My boss isnt very strict about what we wear but I make sure I am covered up at all times because they already have very little respect for me now so I wouldnt dare wear a short skirt or low cut shirt to work. When I am out at the club with my friends and dressed in my "hooker" outfits I know what is on the guys minds who are hitting on me...and I laugh and walk away. There is a time and place for anything and even though its not fair first impressions are everything and most people are going to judge you how you are dressed. The attenion from the guys is fun but think why am i getting this attenion...its because we look easy and to much 18-24 year old guys that is just what they are interested in. How could they think we have any self-respect when we have almost everything exposed?
June 22nd, 2005, 09:34 AM
Personally, I think it's immaturity that draws youngsters to wear these clothes. Most will likely consider me a youngster too--early 20s--but I can safely say that although I could wear those kinds of clothes, I never would. I can look fabulous wearing nice, classic clothes from Jacob, The Gap, and Smart Set. I don't need to show all the goods up front.
Why leave nothing to mystery? Guys can be pretty dense, but I'd rather a dense guy who saw more in me than my body than a smart guy who was only after the shell.
There seems to be some kind of disconnect going on. Perhaps it's parenting coupled with the entertainment industry. I don't know. But I don't think it's fair for parents not to take any responsibility for the way their children dress....if all parents encouraged better dressing, then everyone's children would have peers who also wore more reasonable outfits (thus eliminating the peer defense).
When I was in high school, you were in the minority if you dressed like this. Today, it's the majority.
One last point---for me, size plays no role in this issue. Just because someone's kid has a good body doesn't mean it is acceptable for a teenage girl to go prancing around in tight, low cut jeans and a spagetti strapped tank top.
My two cents...