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Not Guilty

Safyre
June 13th, 2005, 05:18 PM
Micheal Jackson, not Guilty on All Counts

How many people agree, disagree? Anyone care anymore?

Writing4Fun
June 13th, 2005, 05:26 PM
I think that he and OJ Simpson will be getting together for a beer real soon... :rolleyes:

Rick C
June 13th, 2005, 05:32 PM
It was Jackson's wackiness versus the mother's evident avarice . . . . a pretty sad verdict.

It would have been kind of funny to see how Jackson would have made out in prison.

Next stop . . . . bankruptcy court.

And what of the mother's and father's who will STILL take their kids for sleepovers at Jackson's place?

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Eleni
June 13th, 2005, 06:04 PM
any sane parent would NOT allow their child around that man, if even there was ever a question of his ethics towards children


put it this way

As a mom id rather be wrong and judge someone unfairly, then be right and regret the damage someone has done to my child.


anyone whos ever been accused of molestation rich or no would never step foot near my babies if i can help it.

as for the verdict, im not shocked

the guy is in his own world and really needs help to realise what is reality


Eleni

Prin
June 13th, 2005, 06:08 PM
It's not who is right or wrong-- it's who has the best lawyers. What a creepy, bizarre "human being".

heidiho
June 13th, 2005, 06:14 PM
Elani is right why would any normal parent let your children around him..For money,i just dont think they had enough hard facts to find him guitly

april21h1
June 13th, 2005, 06:19 PM
I agree with eleni as well. What sane parent would let their child spend the night with him? I know I would not let him near my cats, let alone a child.

Safyre
June 13th, 2005, 06:27 PM
I was not surprised by the verdict in the least. The witnesses were not credible and the prosecutionput up a good fight.
Do I believe he is guilty? Well, i think he is a wacked person, who believes he is Peter Pan. I don't know if he molested or not, but I'm no shocked as to the verdict.
As for anyone that allows thier children near him ... if they know his views on sleepovers and how children are to be loved ... all I can say is WOW.

Luba
June 13th, 2005, 06:37 PM
I am DELIGHTED ELATED and all around HAPPY as a PIG in MANURE


YEAHHHHHH MIKEY!!!!!!! WOOOO HOOOO

Just because you allow a child to share your bed doesn't make you a pervert or a pedophile.

If this were the case I and most of my family would be in jail. We have always welcomed our homes to children whether it be family, relatives or friends and those kids ALWAYS have the option to spend the night cuddled next to one of us while we read stories, make stories up or play a game or something.

C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S M I C H A E L

JDG
June 13th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Does anyone think if he wasn't famous, this trial would have had the same outcome???

Luba
June 13th, 2005, 06:49 PM
YUP without money to support an expensive attorney he may have been found guilty simply because of an inexperienced law team.


AGAIN YIPPPPPPPPPPPPPIEEEE!

Eleni
June 13th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Does anyone think if he wasn't famous, this trial would have had the same outcome???

i think without money hed have been found guilty, if he had no money his defense wouldnt ahve a leg to stand on either, they seemed to have based the defense that the mom and the boy were after$$

is he guilty, i dunno

but he certainly has made some huge errors in judgement, wich definatly he should be accountable for in some way or another.

im sure a civil suit will be filed against him. its the way it all seems to work.

Eleni

Safyre
June 13th, 2005, 07:08 PM
I don't think you can answer that JDG..... I don't think a case with fact like these would happen to someone not famous. These witnesses were not credible. They seemd to lie at every point.

I believe he might abuse children, if he does, karma will get him in the end.

heidiho
June 13th, 2005, 07:23 PM
If he was an average joe,he would be going to jail,no doubt about it,hopefully he will stop sleeping with little boys,and get some serious mental help///////////////////////////////

Writing4Fun
June 13th, 2005, 07:49 PM
Does anyone think if he wasn't famous, this trial would have had the same outcome???
I think if he wasn't rich & famous, this would be a non-issue because no one would be sending their kids over to his house for a sleep-over.

Eleni
June 13th, 2005, 07:51 PM
I think if he wasn't rich & famous, this would be a non-issue because no one would be sending their kids over to his house for a sleep-over.


good point writing, but honestly if a pedophile isnt given easy oppertunity, they will seek the oppertunity, so it will be an issue just not in the same manner as it in in this case imho

Eleni

dmc123
June 13th, 2005, 07:59 PM
I was very glad to hear the verdict. I never thought he was guilty of the charges. Having said that, I don't think he is working with the same full deck we hope most males of his age have. If I had children, I wouldn't want them sleeping with him, that is stupid. But he is more like a child than most kids, certainly more than the young man whose mother was working to convict him during this whole thing. I hope Michael or someone close to him has learned from this and will explain some things to him. He needs help, but I am still thrilled the verdict was innocent.

Diane

Luba
June 13th, 2005, 10:15 PM
I find it very disturbing myself that people prejudge others because they are different then they are.

This to me can be a very dangerous mindset, it leads to hatred and segregation as well as prejudicial decision making.

I wonder if he was female and the children were female if any of the people who feel he was guilty would think differently.

Would it then be okay for women to sleep or share their bed with young girls.

I can't wait to hear your responses.....

Safyre
June 13th, 2005, 10:17 PM
I would be concerned about a women with the same characteristics (personality) as Micheal, h*ll yes.
It seems he doesn't live in reality, and doesn't comprehend law. I honestly think he shoulda had a psych consult before trial, not being rude, i'm just not sure he understands consequences of actions.

Luba
June 13th, 2005, 10:25 PM
And so it's inappropriate in your beliefs Saf that I allow children to sleep in my bed with me?

happycats
June 13th, 2005, 10:31 PM
I see nothing wrong with allowing your "own" children to sleep in your bed. But I would never allow my child to sleep in anyones elses bed, I just think it's wrong. Really, why take any chances?
If you have a son, would you allow him to sleep in another mans bed ??

Safyre
June 14th, 2005, 12:00 AM
I don't believe that is wrong at all, as long as you are not turned on by it, and not showing them porno graphic material.

I would be uncomfortable allowing a child of mine to sleep in a bed with anothe adult. I was also sexually abused as a child.

Prin
June 14th, 2005, 12:53 AM
The thing is, he isn't having kids over to play with his kids. They're over to play with HIM. Lying in a bed reading to a couple of kids is not the same as sleeping the night or several nights alone with ONE kid.

And the thing about if he was a woman and they were girls-- women statistically have way less of a chance of repeating a cycle of sexual abuse than a man does. For some reason, the thinking and reasoning differ between the sexes in such a way that they react differently to the same trauma. So even if the woman was sexually abused, she is less likely to abuse than a man in the same situation.

I'd never let my kids sleep with anybody who is even remotely close to being an adult. I would never leave them alone with somebody when there are no other kids or parents around.

Bearsmom
June 14th, 2005, 08:33 AM
It's different if it's your own children as opposed to a STRANGER'S bed. And superstar or not, he's a stranger.

I think he's guilty as hell. He's sick, twisted, and just didn't get convicted.

Anyone notice how he's looking more and more like his good friend Elizabeth Taylor?

He and OJ should rot in hell.

Daisy's Owner
June 14th, 2005, 09:44 AM
I can't for the life of me, fathom, reason, understand why on earth I would even remotely consider sleeping in a bed with someone else's child. I'd be giving up my bed, if that was the only option and sleeping on the floor.

And if I found out my kids were sleeping in an adults bed, all hell would be breaking loose. No, ifs ands or buts.

To me, it's completely inappropriate and there is no reason for it.

I personally think Michael is guilty as sin. I think the mother is guilty as sin as well for placing her son in the situation.

Eleni
June 14th, 2005, 09:47 AM
my kids will hop into bed with my brother and sister in law when they are spending the night there,

but they are the most trusted caregivers i ahve for my kids, same applied for my mom and stepdad.

but the difference is they are family, they love and hopefully protect my children as if they were their own

if i ever found out my kids were in a strangers bed, id probably be on the war path. there is jsut no reason for it

Schwinn
June 14th, 2005, 09:59 AM
And the thing about if he was a woman and they were girls-- women statistically have way less of a chance of repeating a cycle of sexual abuse than a man does. For some reason, the thinking and reasoning differ between the sexes in such a way that they react differently to the same trauma. So even if the woman was sexually abused, she is less likely to abuse than a man in the same situation.



Just ask Mary Kate Letourneau. Sorry, not trying to be snide.

Sexual abuse by women is under-reported, for many reasons. That being said, I have to confess to probably feeling different if it was a woman than a man. We've trained ourselves that pedophiles are only men. Also, when a young teen girl is seduced by a man, we call him a pedophile. When it is a male being seduced by a woman, we call it "being made a man", and say he probably wanted it. Just look at the difference between the way Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore were viewed and the way Bruce Willis and Lindsay Lohan were. In the former, I heard comments like, "She's hot!" and in the latter I heard, "He's a dirty old man". But I digress...

I think he is innocent. I think if he was a pedophile, with the millions of kids he's had out there, there would have been more that came forward. I also think he has the mind of a 14 year old. I don't think he did anything with malicious intent. I think if he did show porn to any kids, he did it the way one kid would show it off to his buddies. Also, the porn was being called "kiddie porn", but my understanding is it was the "barely legal" and "barely 18" type (not saying one is better or worse than the other, just that there is a difference in the type pedophiles typically enjoy). Do I think he fed the kids alcohol. Probably. Again, I think he was doing it in a way a kid would do it with his friends. That's why the charges for the alcohol didn't stick. They were worded something to the effect of "supplying alcohol to a minor for the purposes of committing a felony". If he's innocent of molestation, there's no felony, ergo, there's no intent to commit a felony. Had the charge been supplying alcohol to a minor, it would have probably stuck. I also think there was a serious credibility issue with the mom. She was someone who committed welfare fraud, and liked to sue people. Right away that raises a red flag. I could go into more, but there was a lot of things that didn't sound right about thier story.

Bottom-line, again, I don't think he's ever done anything with malicious intent. I think he's a man-child who needs some SERIOUS therapy. And I also think it's nuts to let your kid sleep with a grown man.

Blaze01
June 14th, 2005, 10:19 AM
Do I think Michael Jackson is strange...yes
A child molester...NO
I am very happy he was proved Innocent.

Lissa
June 14th, 2005, 10:24 AM
I feel bad for Micheal Jackson and I am glad that he was found not guilty, anything else would have demonstrated a corrupt legal system.
I definately think he has some issues and I don't know why he makes things look worse for himself but I don't think he means to harm children. I don't think he understands at all why people accuse him of child molestation.

Perhaps I would feel differently if I had children but I honestly think that Micheal Jackson means well, no matter how "odd" his statements and behaviour/actions seem to the rest of us. How can you not have issues with the way he has grown up and lived his life?

Pesonally, I believe that people see M.J as a perfect target and it makes me sad to think that people are so motivated by greed and hatred that they can lash out and make someone into a monster - and that's not just with M.J. Lots of people are quick to assume and form opinions about someone's guilt because they look/seem guilty. It's a pretty sad and unfair reaction; lots of people like scandal are a willing to twist the facts to suit what they believe.

Prin
June 14th, 2005, 10:29 AM
I just heard the top two of David Letterman's top ten list-- Things overheard at the aquittal, something along the lines of:
2-- Thank god our prisons are still dedicated for only the hard-core criminals, like Martha Stewart
1-- Yet another case of a white man getting preferrential treatment.

I thought it was funny.... I hope it doesn't offend anybody.. :o

Rick C
June 14th, 2005, 10:36 AM
Triumph the Comic Dog analyzes the Michael Jackson trial for Conan O'Brien . . . . before the verdict.

http://busychild.wegotpics.net/thelol/Triumph1.wmv

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

heidiho
June 14th, 2005, 10:47 AM
Yes If It Was A Woman Bringing Little Girls Over I Would Have The Same Concern,it Is Not Normal What He Does..that Man Needs Some Serious Help How Can U Not Think That???he Already Settled Out Of Court Once Cause Of This And U Are Gonna Do It Again..he Is Living In Fantasy World Not The Reality Of Life,i Understand Loving Kids,yeah They Are Cool,but They Do Not Need To Sleep In Your Bed,no Way I Would Have Never Allowed That If I Had Kids,,,,that Man Might Not Have Ever Done Anything But He Does Need To Seek Help/.................not Playing With A Full Deck

Luvmypit
June 14th, 2005, 11:24 AM
Even most of the jurors said that they think he is guilty but the evidence wasn't there.
I also would like to remind you of Karla Homolka. Sexual abuse does happen with women perpetrators. I would wonder for sure why ANY adult would encourage any child to sleep with them.
As for all the other kids that were around him and never said anything about being molested i believe that often the majority of victims never say a word until they are adults or never say a word at all. I bet you any money this won;t be the last trial for Michael Jackson. It also goes to show why all his sleeping buddies are boys and never had girls sleep in his bed. And why was both the 93 and this trial have so many simularites in the way the molestation took place. Why were there two I think seperate families paid off before this?

I watched Oprah yesterday and it was about child molestation and confronting their molestors. Hard show... BUt it goes to show that the people on the show never ever reported there incidents to police and that includes Oprah. So the amount of abuse that goes on is often never ever recorded by any statistics yet the statistics are very high. Look at Holly Jones, her neighbourhood after her abduction was found to be home to 50-100 convicted child molestors and was killed by one that never ever molested before. She also mentions the burden these children keep because they tend to feel like the only option for them is to protect the family and keep it in seeing as the majority of abusers ARE family and close friends of the family.


I also heard that some of the jurors where Mike fans. Did anyone hear this?

Safyre
June 14th, 2005, 11:45 AM
Schwinn - I couldn't think of Mary Kay Letourneaus name when I was replying yesterday. Thank you! She is an example of female abuser.

Prin - cute, very cute. I'm not offended, i wish I woulda watched!

Luvmypit - I havn't heard of any of the jurors being Mike Fans. I have heard that at least one juror says he believe MJ is a child molester, but the evidence was not there.

I completely believe that abuse is under reported. The statistic is every 1-6 boys will be abused before they turn 18 and 1 in 4 girls. my problem with that is, those are the reported abuses. I didn't report mine. my bestriend didn't report hers. and I unfortunately know of a few others as well.

Luba
June 14th, 2005, 11:59 AM
The problem with peoples thought patterns in this society is that they are in many cases geared to expect the worse of people.

Every stranger and every person is a creep a perv a pedophile or a killer.

It's very sad that people think that way, I know I don't and I hope I never do.
Yes one must be cautious and protecting to a point. But believing in someone nurturing and sharing time with a child is wrong is just what is wrong with this world. Everything is turned into a sexual issue.

There is NO proof he showed porn to kids. The family discredited themselves through multiple actions prior during and after the accusations.

It's so easy to target the nice guy with the sensitivity level he has instead of someone callouse and stronger. Way to go!

Geeze I better be careful I'll have a 'Sneddon' after me for having kids sleep in my bed with me ALL NIGHT yes I said ALL NIGHT!! Can you guess how many times' I've been peed on during the night lol!!

Its humourous to me that so many are closed minded....I love the air circulating in my mind...I don't find it closed at all! :D

Safyre
June 14th, 2005, 12:15 PM
Ok Luba, let me break down my thoughts for you here..

I myself, believe that one of the most special things you can do with someone you love, is sleep with them (SLEEP, share a bed with them) So, I completely understand that.

I would be weirded out if a stranger slept in the bed with my child. Strangers do not love my children the way that I do, and, I WAS sexually abused as a child, so I do tend to worry about it more so than others.
If the child slept in the bed with anyone but me, it would obviously have to be approved by me, or some other exceptional reason (child having nightmare, getting sick) then I believe they have gone too far.

I also believe that when you have children, or friendly with children in that manner, the sexual items of your life need to be hidden, away from where they can reach. Get your vibrators on the top shelves ladies, and the porns mags in the same place gents. I don't believe Micheal did that. There is no proof that he showed the mag to the boy, his finger prints, and the boys were on it, but they cannot date finger prints.

From watching various programs on MJ, documentaries, interviews, yes, he seems very sensitive. However, he also seems to have lost touch with reality, and that IN ANYONE, is scary. For that reason, I don't trust him. how can he say what he has done is right or wrong, if he is not living in reality? Obviously, no one can really answer that, as no one knows his mind set and he won't submit to a pysch consult.

Luba, who do you deal with the statistic of child abuse then? 1-6 boys, 1-4 girls. how do you prepare yourselve, and protect your kids from the preditors. since you don't worry about strangers being pedophiles. I'm curious.

Writing4Fun
June 14th, 2005, 12:19 PM
Rick, that was hilarious! With friends like that, Mikey doesn't need any enemies! :eek:

Yes, Luba, I am very suspicious of people's ulterior motives. I'm sorry, it's just who I am. As a parent, I have an obligation to protect my children from people who want to harm them. It has nothing to do with how Michael looks. It's his actions that speak volumes to me, everything he's done over the past years in the eye of the media - let alone what he's done behind closed doors. Yes, he had a tragic childhood. He most definitely isn't "playing with a full deck". Someone said he's a boy in a man's body, and I think they're right, but I also know that this can be a very dangerous combination. If he had been found guilty, I would hope they would do a psych exam and find him mentally unstable and place him in the appropriate treatment facility. But the fact remains that a grown man who is a total stranger to a child should not invite that child to sleep in his bed with him. He lives in a mansion! You'd think there was a spare bedroom he could offer the child!

And before we start on that again, it's already been clarified that sleeping with your caregiver, someone who knows and loves you, is a completely different scenario.

Having said that, I think the boy's parents are equally to blame for everything that has happened to the child. I understand that Michael thought he was doing something nice for a cancer survivor. But, the parents should have insisted that they be allowed to come along to supervise all interactions. If you ask me, they were hoping to profit from the encounter, and when Michael didn't shower the boy with money and gifts, they tried the next best thing ... sue him. Yes, lovely people all around, aren't they? :rolleyes:

Eleni
June 14th, 2005, 12:21 PM
Rick, that was hilarious! With friends like that, Mikey doesn't need any enemies! :eek:

Yes, Luba, I am very suspicious of people's ulterior motives. I'm sorry, it's just who I am. As a parent, I have an obligation to protect my children from people who want to harm them. It has nothing to do with how Michael looks. It's his actions that speak volumes to me, everything he's done over the past years in the eye of the media - let alone what he's done behind closed doors. Yes, he had a tragic childhood. He most definitely isn't "playing with a full deck". Someone said he's a boy in a man's body, and I think they're right, but I also know that this can be a very dangerous combination. If he had been found guilty, I would hope they would do a psych exam and find him mentally unstable and place him in the appropriate treatment facility. But the fact remains that a grown man who is a total stranger to a child should not invite that child to sleep in his bed with him. He lives in a mansion! You'd think there was a spare bedroom he could offer the child!

And before we start on that again, it's already been clarified that sleeping with your caregiver, someone who knows and loves you, is a completely different scenario.

Having said that, I think the boy's parents are equally to blame for everything that has happened to the child. I understand that Michael thought he was doing something nice for a cancer survivor. But, the parents should have insisted that they be allowed to come along to supervise all interactions. If you ask me, they were hoping to profit from the encounter, and when Michael didn't shower the boy with money and gifts, they tried the next best thing ... sue him. Yes, lovely people all around, aren't they? :rolleyes:


I agree 100% you couldnt ahve stated my opinions more clearly.


get out of my head its scary in there :P



Eleni

heidiho
June 14th, 2005, 12:26 PM
I agree there was no solid evidence,but bottom line is DONT SLEEP WITH LITTLE KIDS,,how hard is that to understand,that man needs to get help,with all the people he has around him why hasnt someone got him to make the step to do it,you here so mant times how close friends or your good neighboor molested someones kids,i would not let anyone sleep with my kids,and i dont see how that makes any sense saying the kindest or the most loving thing u can do is share your bed,what kind of crap is that it actually makes no sense at all to me,no the most loving thing you can do is open your home,not your bed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Luvmypit
June 14th, 2005, 12:26 PM
By no means do I think that everyone is a killer or a pedophile/....

Ask your self what are the signs of sexual abuse
For one is an unusual interest in children.
Whatever his motivation is he definately has an unusual interrest in boys particulary... for any concerned parent that would be a red flag.

Luba
June 14th, 2005, 12:45 PM
I think in one way or another many of us were victims of abuse or know someone who was/or is! That's really not the question here. Here we are talking about ONE man not EVERYONE and that to me is the difference.

I am not a stranger to my nieces, to my God Children and friends children.

I already said it's only realistic to be cautious and careful. Letting your kids sleep with just anyone would be asking for trouble .... we all know that. However let us isolate a situation and deal with it one at a time instead of grouping people together that way. It's not a healthy thing for communities to do.

That's my thoughts and opinions on it! But remember not everyone is an ogre ;) though some sure look like it!

Try to keep an open mind and not let you own experiences dictate your life to a point where by you have tunnel vision.

I just find it very sad that so many people feel so afraid of 'everyone' and because there have been so many cases of abuse whether by men or women it's set some sort of a standard to automatically expect the worst from someone. That is a shame, and as a society and as communities I would love to see that change.

Protecting our children our families, our neighbours from true predators is essential.

Luvmypit
June 14th, 2005, 12:55 PM
so do you have one of those predator detectors? How do you find the TRUE predators?
Is wanting to sleep with children you hardley know ok ? Thats not generalizing I am talking about Michael. He does not dispute the fact that he enjoys the company of children at night innocent or not.

Eleni
June 14th, 2005, 12:58 PM
I would rather judge someone unfairly who isnt a predator

then trust a predator blindly.

there is no opps when it comes to kids, you ahve one shot at it, if you dont protect them you cant look back and change thigs, they are scarred for life.

if that breeds judgemental people then so be it, at least I know im doing my best to keep my kids safe.

at the end of the day that is whats most important to me

Eleni

Bearsmom
June 14th, 2005, 01:11 PM
[QUOTE=Luba]
Try to keep an open mind and not let you own experiences dictate your life to a point where by you have tunnel vision.
QUOTE]

Sorry, I spent 10 years in downtown Toronto as a cop. I've long since dealt with my share of, "mommy's boyfriend hurt me", and "uncle whomever says it was okay".

Am I suspicious? Yes. Have my life's experiences taught me that? Yes. Do I have tunnel vision when it comes to my child's safety? Yes, as a parent, it's my job to ensure he lives a normal life in this abnormal world.

I wish I could see the world through rose coloured glasses, but that's not gonna happen.

Cactus Flower
June 14th, 2005, 01:47 PM
Women who are molested/abused as children tend to end up with abusers as adults, rather than becoming one. Men who are molested/abused as children have a much higher rate of becoming one themselves. There IS a difference between a man's brain and a woman's brain- and they DO tend to process trauma differently.

As with everything else, there are exceptions. But that is the overwhelming trend, psychologically.

Each outcome is the individual's way of (unsuccessfully) processing their own abuse, and keeping what is familiar to them- their definition of (unhealthy and inappropriate) "love"- in their lives.

The criminal mind is my field of study, and I pour over cases like this nearly every academic day. That does not make me an expert, but I do feel some familiarity with the aforementioned abuse cycles.

Just a reminder- a "not guilty" verdict does not necessarily mean that the jury thinks the accused is innocent. It can mean simply that they had to admit the prosecution did not present enough evidence to erase any reasonable doubt.

the most loving thing you can do is open your home,not your bed I agree with this statement.

I find it interesting that some here who think it's ok for an adult to share their bed with other people's children do not yet have children themselves, and I have to wonder if their opinion would change if they did.

I share Eleni's "better safe than sorry" position on all of this. A child is not going to be unbalanced in some way if they never share a bed with someone besides their parents. It's not a necessary part of their development, and they won't be lacking anything if they never experience it. Why risk it?

Lissa
June 14th, 2005, 01:53 PM
Luba - I agree with you completely. As people have become more aware of the the "sicko's" out there and the inumerable bad things that could happen, we have begun to distrust everyone and everything. It is easier to "see/asume" that someone has sinister motives than to trust or recognize that you might be overreacting.

With the case of child molestation it is hard, if not impossible to fault any parent or guardian for erring on the side of caution.

There are some creeps out there, but we can't paint everyone with the same brush.

Melissa

"Try to keep an open mind and not let you own experiences dictate your life to a point where by you have tunnel vision." Luba I love that! It's my new favorite quote - I'm gonna say it all the time now :) !

Writing4Fun
June 14th, 2005, 02:28 PM
"Try to keep an open mind and not let you own experiences dictate your life to a point where by you have tunnel vision." Luba I love that! It's my new favorite quote - I'm gonna say it all the time now :) !
That's odd, because I feel the exact opposite way. If I can't let my own experiences dictate how I live my life, then what can I rely on?

My old self-defence instructor once said, "The deer treats any sound she hears as a possible hunter, and flees for her life. It doesn't matter to her if the hunter is in fact a photographer, and she doesn't apologize to the photographer for hurting his feelings. She just runs as if he is a hunter." It's sad, yes, but that is what this world has come to. Now, I'm not saying that we should all close our hearts to humanity. Where possible, I will always be willing to give the benefit of the doubt and/or lend a helping hand. That trust in human kind ends, though, when it comes to those entrusted to my care - my kids and my pets.

Now, in this particular case, I agree that a) there is something unhealthy about a grown man seeking out the company of strange children and wanting them to share his bed, and b) the parents are equally to blame for allowing it to happen.

Lizzie
June 14th, 2005, 02:45 PM
I also think it is very odd that someone would suggest that we shouldn't use our past experiences and knowledge to help guide our lives. It seems rather natural...and almost impossible not to let our past experiences impact our future experiences.

I would even venture to say that it is because of your past experiences that you have the opinion that you do. While you think those who disagree with you have tunnel vision, perhaps you might consider that some of us think that you have tunnel vision.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that you're way of thinking is the right way. Maybe it is right for you, but not for everyone.

kandy
June 14th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Micheal Jackson has brought this upon himself. You can't do a documentary in which you tell people that you share your bed with children "to show them love" and not expect people to associate that with molestation. What's really sad in this whole thing is that if the child in this case was truly molested, he'll live his whole life knowing that his claims were dismissed and that no one cared. That will add to his trauma, I'm sure. I think that the mother is a money grubber, and either convinced her son to make up the story, or used his experience as a way to get money. If he really was molested, and the mother used that as a way to gain financially, then she should be shot! I'm also sure this won't be the last time we see Mr. Jackson in court.

heidiho
June 14th, 2005, 02:56 PM
I think the bottom line is DONT SLEEP WITH KIDS,hello you just dont do that...My god he is in his 40's, why has he not gotten help with his issues?????????????????????????????? :eek:

Schwinn
June 14th, 2005, 03:00 PM
I think the bottom line is DONT SLEEP WITH KIDS,hello you just dont do that...My god he is in his 40's, why has he not gotten help with his issues?????????????????????????????? :eek:

Because he doesn't think he has issues, and he surrounds himself with "yes-men", people who will do anything he says or asks. Money and fame can get you some of the best "friends" in the world.

Luvmypit
June 14th, 2005, 03:02 PM
I hope that Michael Jackson learns from his experiences and STOPS SLEEPING WITH LITTLE BOYS!!

heidiho
June 14th, 2005, 03:08 PM
Wow Schiwnn That Is So Very True,that Is What My Dad Always Said Also...you Are Very Right...

Lissa
June 14th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Writing4fun and Lizzie - I think you are both missing the point of why I like this saying:

"Try to keep an open mind and not let your own experiences dictate your life to a point where by you have tunnel vision."

To me, what this saying means is that lots of people form opinions (that are sometimes bias and prejudice) and are based on unfounded experiences.

Perhaps neither of you 2 are that way but there's a whole world full of people that think this way (think BSL or racial disputes and assuming that someone is guilty based on a similar experience you may have had).

I'm not innocent of forming a biased opinion because of previous experience but I make of point of recognizing when I do it and stop myself from being judgemental when I know I'm assuming and/or overreacting.

I'm not trying to force my beliefs down anybody. I believe we all walk around with tunnel vision when it comes to certain aspects of our lives but it doesn't make it right or the best thing to do - however natural it might be!

Schwinn
June 14th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Wow Schiwnn That Is So Very True,that Is What My Dad Always Said Also...you Are Very Right...

Daughter, is that you?? ;)

heidiho
June 14th, 2005, 05:41 PM
It is me your long lost daughter......Remember that night with mom........................ :highfive: :highfive:

melanie
June 14th, 2005, 05:54 PM
i often sleep with my 3yo neice and 10yo nephew, they keep me warm and it beats sleeping on the floor, and there is nothing wrong with that, or weird or sexual, its my family....

when i was a little girl i would always bolt into my daddies bed in the mornings, hes so big and warm, it was always warm in there, and smelt really nice of my daddy, to this day if i go over to his house in the morn the first thing i do is jump in that warm bed, the smell is so wonderful to me, its so reassuring and safe, and it was the same for my sister.......nothing wrong with that....

and a group of MJs peers have found him not guilty, you would be afforded the same opertunity in his place, you would be judge by a group of your peers to be found guilty or not, its your legal system, dont like it fix it.....

and if there is not enough evidence, after all the hundreds of kids that have been to neverland, and all the months it has taken to get this far, give me a break...it sounds like more of a case of someone trying to use the children for financial gain.....and michael is excentric and weird which makes him an obvious target.....

doggy lover
June 14th, 2005, 05:59 PM
All I have to say is I wouldn't let my son stay at his house.

Schwinn
June 14th, 2005, 05:59 PM
and a group of MJs peers have found him not guilty

I don't know about that...I mean, I'd think they'd have to empty a whole sideshow to fill a jury with HIS peers...

Just saying...

Everything else I agree with...

Okay, now I'll beat it...

heidiho
June 14th, 2005, 06:03 PM
That is totally different nieces and nephews,i would of dound him innocent also,not enough to say he did it,but you just dont let your kids sleep with grown men just because he is famous..............

Luba
June 14th, 2005, 07:10 PM
Some of you are throwing in your education and job experience as a way to justify your answers and opinions. Woopie doo!Well perhaps you aren't the only one with the same sort of experience, education and training. I spent more then ten years in law enforcement and related fields and I do not own the same opinions as you do.

You make your own decisions and if you decide of your own free adult brain to always consider the world as a cruel and hateful place where everyone is out to 'get your kid molested' then you will carry that emotional belief to your children. What a world for them to grow up in, considering everyone as a criminal out to hurt them....boy I can see the psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers making a killing in this field financially off of over protective parents.

I find it interesting that some here who think it's ok for an adult to share their bed with other people's children do not yet have children themselves, and I have to wonder if their opinion would change if they did.

CF I indicated that I do share my home, my bed and my life with children...always have and always will. If I had children there just wouldn't be enough room so I'd need a larger bed!! :p

I grew up with family that all shared their beds and slept with one another as you Mel and I'm so greatful that this western mind of fearing EVERYbody as a wrong doer and creep has not sunken into my head. SHOOT ME if it ever does!!

There is a very large difference between being safe, protective and educating and being paranoid, over protective and over bearing. What do you think the odds are of emotionally crippling your child from fear that the world is this big bad place? I wonder if some of you thought of that one?

I agree with you Melissa and ya go ahead and use the quote...I want royalties from it though LOL :D

heidiho
June 14th, 2005, 07:27 PM
I really do not see how anyone can think it is normal for a grown man to sleep with children that have no realtion to him,why not let them spend time at your place,i understand that,but WHY do u have to sleep with them?>??????????????????????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Cactus Flower
June 14th, 2005, 07:39 PM
Some of you are throwing in your education and job experience as a way to justify your answers and opinions.

I brought up my education in psychology to explain the difference between men and women regarding the cycle of abuse. Period.

You, and many here, are using personal experience ("I sleep with my niece.....I used to sleep with my dad....." etc) to support and justify YOUR answers and opinions. Is there something wrong with either?

All we have in life, to base our opinions upon, is our personal experience, whatever education we get, and whatever experience/education someone else has that they share with us.

Luba, my point stands that you do not have children of your own, and I wonder if your opinion would change if you did. Having kids changes SO MUCH about how you think- it will turn your world upside down. I can't think of any experience that has changed me, the way I view the world and what I care about- the way having my son did.

Maybe you would feel the same way, and maybe you wouldn't. I was just saying that I wonder.

Just because people on here wouldn't want their kids sleeping with a grown man, doesn't mean that they are jaded bitter people who only see the worst in everyone and are extremely suspicious of everyone in this "cruel and hateful world". That is an unfair judgment in and of itself.

I am one of the happiest, most lighthearted people I know. And, although it is my RESPONSIBILITY to protect my son and educate him about the dangers of the world, he is not paranoid or "emotionally crippled" because of it, thank ye very much. I point out as much of the good in the world (if not more, because there's more of it), and he has a great appreciation and love for people. He's a very positive young man.

heidiho
June 14th, 2005, 07:41 PM
Exactly,it does not mean that we are bitter or jaded,but logical & realistic...I do not have kids but i know myself well enough to know,that i would never let them sleep with a grown man,it is NOT NORMAL,how can u think anyone think it is???Please enlighten me??

happycats
June 14th, 2005, 07:42 PM
I really do not see how anyone can think it is normal for a grown man to sleep with children that have no realtion to him,why not let them spend time at your place,i understand that,but WHY do u have to sleep with them?>??????????????????????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Exactly!!

As for emotionally crippling my child by teaching him the world be a big bad place, I am realistic, and the world can be a horrible place, and there are sicko's everywhere.

SO what do you propose I tell my son? THe world is wonderful, people are trustworthy, and it's OK to sleep in anyones bed??I think I would be a neglectfull parent if I told him these things!

Just pick up a paper, the kiddie porn, child abuse, hate crimes, animal abuse and torture, killing, murder, and rape. It's all a reality! And I have to do everything in my power to protect him from this!

heidiho
June 14th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Who is to say he does not molest children and is just very good at covering his tracks.............Why take that chance after he already paid a family off for 20 million ten years ago?????????????????????????Not saying he odes or doesnt but my motto is better safe than sorry...........

Cactus Flower
June 14th, 2005, 08:01 PM
Well, settling a case out of court doesn't necessarily mean guilt, either.

As an example, doctors average about 5 malpractice accusations per year. Often, their insurance company settles, and in MANY of these cases, the doc is innocent. They just happen to be considered an "easy target" by people who like to get money that way. Most "sue-happy" people know that the threat to a professional's REPUTATION is very damaging- even if they are innocent- and settling out of court is the easiest way for the accused. As it turns out, the insurance companies often DROP doctors that insist upon going to court! Go figure.

The bottom line for me is, I wasn't on that jury and I don't know if Michael Jackson is guilty or not. I do know the kind of damage an unfounded accusation like that can do to a person. I knew a gal who accused her husband of molesting their daughter, thinking it would guarantee her custody during their divorce proceedings.
Although he was INNOCENT, he lives with that stigma to this day. It's very sad.

But I still think "better safe than sorry", when it comes to letting your kids sleep with adults outside of parents, whether or not they've ever been suspected of anything.

Luba
June 14th, 2005, 08:18 PM
Parents abuse their children as well. Statistically I can bet on it that insestual pedophilia is higher then stranger pedophilia.

Fact is, nobody can really know someone else to the extent that the individual knows themself.

Molesters can be anyone and to think that 'stranger danger' is the only avenue of protection your kids need is a danger in and of itself.

Would I think differently if I had children, now how can I answer that? I would hope not, truly I would.

I may not have children of my own but I have been a parent for many years to children who've lived with me. Children who's own parents were abusive and neglectful. Parents who sell their children as child prostitutues and to make child pornography. Children who need to know and learn that not everyone is out to hurt and harm them. These are many of the children that I've comforted and snuggled with in bed at night. These are the children I have allowed to spend their nights with me. Children who wet the bed, have night terrors because of abuse at the hands of their parents.

Writing4Fun
June 14th, 2005, 08:45 PM
But this thread isn't about parents abusing their children. It's about Michael Jackson and whether or not we think he's guilty of molesting a child.

I still hold to my stance that I would never let my child sleep at someone's house if I didn't know them personally and trust them explicitly. I also still hold to the belief that, if Michael wanted to do something nice for this cancer survivor, he should have invited the whole family to stay at his "ranch", where they could have their own rooms and enjoy his hospitality without compromising anyone's reputation or safety. Having the child stay over without adult supervision, and then having the child sleep in his bed to boot, is just not right. Maybe it was very bad judgement on his part. Maybe he did have ulterior motives. Either way, it was very, very wrong (as has been clearly demonstrated by what Micheal and that poor child have gone through over the past months).

Luba
June 14th, 2005, 09:04 PM
I would never let my child sleep at someone's house if I didn't know them personally and trust them explicitly

I agree with this completely. What I was rebutting was those who consider any child sleeping with someone other then a direct family member.
I was simply making a point that family can be just as guilty and that so called stranger that you think may be capable could very well be a decent person :D So your above quote is exactly what I agree with in that regard :D

heidiho
June 15th, 2005, 10:50 AM
You are right it usually is a family member that you read about,but the other comment is true this is about Michael Jackson,i dont know if i believe he is guilty or not,but just because of the fact of him settling out if court cause he didnt want it to drag on and on[his words] i would of been like i said better safe than sorry,something is not right with him and if i had kids no way in hell would they sleep in his bed with him that is not normal,for that matter i dont think they need to sleep with anyone.................

Writing4Fun
June 15th, 2005, 11:10 AM
... of course, if Brad Pitt were to invite my children to sleep over at his place, I think I would insist that I be allowed to come along ... just to keep an eye on him - I mean - on them ... :p

You're right, Luba. Not all parents are angels, and not all strangers are the Devil incarnate. But, I can't tell which strangers are and are not evil, and so I have to err on the side of caution. ;)

heidiho
June 15th, 2005, 11:16 AM
Now Brad mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........

Prin
June 15th, 2005, 11:37 AM
ok there is incest. But having parents doesn't guarantee there is funny business going on. Sleeping ALONE with an adult man ALONE is pretty much a guarantee that there is funny business going on. Whether it be molestation or just POOR mental health of the adult. Either way, I don't want any kids going over there.

And am I living in fear and will I teach kids the world is a horrible place? No, but I will tell them to stay away from creepy, bizarre men.

The truth is 1 out of 9 men will rape in his lifetime. That's a lot of men. If I can get my kids or anybody else's kids to get through to at least 25 with their bodies intact, without any severe sexual trauma, it would be a miracle to me. Nearly everybody I know has had at least one horrible incident. Kids have to be taught that there are boundaries and they can decide what they want to do with their bodies, and what is wrong. Sure some parents suck as parents and molest their own kids, but are you any better if you put them in the presence of a suspected pedophile?

Letting them sleep with creepy old men is not protecting them from the evils that be, it's provoking the evils.

Bearsmom
June 15th, 2005, 11:43 AM
[QUOTE=Luba]Some of you are throwing in your education and job experience as a way to justify your answers and opinions. Woopie doo!Well perhaps you aren't the only one with the same sort of experience, education and training. I spent more then ten years in law enforcement and related fields and I do not own the same opinions as you do.

/QUOTE]


No, Luba, I was explaining MY outlook on the world. Jaded or not, that's my OPINION. You stated that one shouldn't have tunnel vision from life experiences, well, I do.

I will do my damndest to ensure our son's safety, and I pity anyone that messes with him.

Prin
June 15th, 2005, 11:48 AM
Luba, how can you see only roses after being a cop? Or were you a secretary? Pretty vague. I don't know anybody who sees only pink after working in a field like that. Even shrinks see a side of the world that they can never put aside.

heidiho
June 15th, 2005, 12:28 PM
I do not have kids,but i know i would be extremley overprotective and would do anything to protect my child,why even take the CHANCE that he might of done it ten years ago????????????????

Luba
June 15th, 2005, 12:32 PM
Or did were you a secretary?

Yah that's it Prin...if you're going to try to be smug atleast be correct in your use of grammar ;) otherwise it doesn't come off with a bang.

I'm proud to have an open mind after seeing so much filth. Ofcourse I've matured that way perhaps you haven't. Good luck in getting there.

Prin
June 15th, 2005, 12:51 PM
There I fixed it. I wasn't joking. I really don't know anybody who has seen the "filth" up close and personal who doesn't change their views on humanity and on the world. Were you a secretary?

Luba
June 15th, 2005, 01:03 PM
I believe they changed the title in most places to administrative assistant or something along that line but uhm no I was not.

I didn't think you were joking, I knew you were sarcastic. It really doesn't matter whether you do / do not know anyone with the same view points. I have no knowledge of how large or small your circle of family and friends are and it really doesn't matter.

Safyre
June 15th, 2005, 01:24 PM
wow, Luba, why can't you just answer the question.
What type of work did you do that caused you to see filth in life, and not become biased due to it?

Writing4Fun
June 15th, 2005, 01:30 PM
What type of work did you do that caused you to see filth in life, and not become biased due to it?
Does it really matter what she did? There are some people who maintain an optemistic outlook, despite having seen humanity at it's worst. I envy her that ability - I know I'd never be able to do it.

charoscoe
June 15th, 2005, 01:41 PM
Personally I think he's guilty but if they couldn't prove it in court then they have to let him go.

Lets keep in mind that he already paid one family $25m.
There is just something wrong with a grown man wanting to share his bed with kids.

twinmommy
June 15th, 2005, 01:52 PM
What type of work did you do that caused you to see filth in life, and not become biased due to it?

Does it really matter?
Instead of questionning her validity, in a crazy sick society, shouldn't we commend her? So many people who become bitter,tainted, jaded, and depressed and burnt out with what their jobs make them witness.

Everyone handles the heavy stuff differently, and if she can remain "afloat" then leave her be, don't patronize her.

Luba
June 15th, 2005, 01:56 PM
I am deliberately being vague and that is by choice. Whether I tell you or not is not going to persuade you to change your own opinions.

I prefer to leave some things private to 'strangers' like you ;) Afterall I'm being safe right! I do prefer to be optimistic and not pessimistic but sometimes I agree it can be quite difficult to do.

Having said that I will say that anyone in law enforcement or related fields of work should never allow themselves to have this type of tunnel vision. It leads to unprofessional work and poor judgements as well as inappropriate investigative techniques. Ultimately it's the innocent who suffer and end up incarcerated because someone, somewhere along the way 'thought' they were guilty. There are many stereotypes, prejudices and racist beliefs which still thrive today. I rather not be included in that catagory. All are in and of the same in my eyes.

Eleni
June 15th, 2005, 02:00 PM
when I became a parent I gave up the right to see the world with rose coloured glasses

I also gave up the right to expect the best from everyone even when they may seem questionable.

my kids safety is more important then my views of the world.

that makes me tunnel visioned and judgemental, with safe children

im cool with that

Eleni

Safyre
June 15th, 2005, 04:57 PM
This thread was not meant to start an argument. Everyone uses their life experience, in one way or another, to make decisions in life. There are realistic, optimistic, pessimenic points of view. Are any of them incorrect? No. Different.

I am biting my tongue about privacy concerns.

doggy lover
June 15th, 2005, 05:02 PM
I was molested when I was 10 and I would never leave my kids with anyone other than my mum, dad or sisters, the man who did it to me was taking care of me and my sister at the time a neighbour that my mum trusted (so she thought), he was never charged. I think a person that hangs around with children like that is up to something, and I would never trust them. But like I said I would never trust anyone, it is a memory that has haunted me for over 30 years now and I'd kill anyone that touched my kid honestly.

Luba
June 15th, 2005, 05:24 PM
I am biting my tongue about your privacy concerns, after looking at the thunderstorm thread.

Pls don't bite your tongue it may get infected! My choice to what I keep private and what I share is exactly that MY CHOICE why on earth you have a problem with it I do not understand.

Luba
June 15th, 2005, 05:26 PM
I obviously got my reply in before you edited your post Safyre.

:D

badger
June 15th, 2005, 06:08 PM
A propos of MJ, I thought this was an interesting article....

Arrested Development
The tragedy of Michael Jackson.
By Jacob Weisberg
Posted Tuesday, June 14, 2005, at 3:35 PM PT

I've never believed Michael Jackson was a pedophile. To begin with, he doesn't fit the profile. Child abusers tend to do the same thing again and again. According to one study, the average molester of boys commits 280 crimes over a lifetime. Yet despite the lure of getting rich by making accusations against Jacko, only two alleged victims have ever come forward with detailed allegations.

What's more, those two accusations, separated by 10 years, don't conform to a pattern. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the accuser in the recent case—the cancer victim—alleged groping by Jackson. Jackson's previous accuser, whose family settled a civil suit in 1993 for $20 million, accused the singer of more extreme abuse, including oral sex.

But the main reason I never bought the prosecutor's depiction of Jackson as a premeditating sexual predator "grooming" his victims is that it doesn't ring true in psychological terms. Whether or not he has ever touched a boy inappropriately, Michael Jackson seems too emotionally stunted to act in any grown-up way, including a deviant sexual one. Naive, juvenile, and terribly damaged, he seems pathetically incapable not just of criminal intent, but of adult consciousness.

People tend to throw up hands at Michael Jackson's multifarious bizarreness. But is it really so strange? The boy was forced to work by a cruel and physically abusive father starting at the age of 7. (If he'd been sent into a factory or coal mine, instead of onstage, we'd have more compassion for him.) As a boy, he was denied what even most abused and underprivileged children have: school, friends, and play.

Instead, Michael was made into a performing sexualized freak, a boy whose soprano voice kindled passion in grown women. He was made to witness adult sexuality at an age when it can only have been terrifying and incomprehensible to him. By 10, he was performing in strip clubs and hiding under the covers in hotel rooms while his older brothers got it on with groupies. At 11—the age at which his psyche seems frozen—he was a superstar. "My childhood was completely taken away from me," he has said. Almost everything that seems freakish about him can be explained by his poignant, doomed effort to get his stolen childhood back.

To describe the world Michael Jackson has created around himself as a childhood fantasy isn't quite accurate. Thanks to wealth and celebrity, he has been able to live as a superannuated child. With the help of plastic surgery and dramatic affectation, he has made himself look and sound pre-pubescent. He amuses himself with fancy toys, fantastic pets, amusement park rides, and a personal magician.

What emerged at the trial wasn't the picture of a man playing with children in order to seduce them. It was the picture of a man playing with children because he sees himself as one of them. He and his friends in the "Apple Head Club" stayed up all night playing videogames, watching television, and eating popcorn. In the absence of parental authority, they would sometimes drink wine out of Coke cans, make crank calls, look at dirty magazines, and try to gross each other out (head-licking, anyone?). A child in his own mind, Jackson sees all of his behavior as completely innocent. It was a sleepover party, not a seduction or even the sublimation of one. Hence his sincere-sounding admission to Martin Bashir, the British filmmaker whose 2003 documentary Living With Michael Jackson initiated his recent troubles, that sleeping with young boys is loving, and not sexual. Jackson appears not to comprehend adult sexuality enough to get why people might divine a more sinister intent.

There is, of course, a literary precedent here. "I am Peter Pan," Jackson told Bashir. Even without his cosmetic remodeling as Mary Martin, this identification would be hard to miss. At the Neverland Ranch, as in the Darling nursery, the boys all sleep in the same room. Michael, like Peter, casts himself as father, big brother, and ring-leader. He takes his lost boys on romps and adventures. Girls are not welcome. One of the few exceptions was his sister, whom he calls "Tinkerbell." But as Jackson knows, Peter Pan is not entirely a happy story. The boys will return from Neverland and grow into adults. Peter cannot.

A more interesting comparison may be between Jackson and the author of that fantasy, J.M. Barrie. Like Jackson, Barrie suffered from a kind of arrested development, brought on by the death of his beloved older brother when he was 6. According to Andrew Birkin's book J.M. Barrie and the Lost Boys: The Real Story Behind Peter Pan, Barrie's marriage remained unconsummated, while his deepest relationships were with the Llewelyn Davies brothers, the five boys he met in Kensington Gardens in London who formed the basis for the characters in Peter Pan. Barrie performed tricks for the children, played with them, more or less moved into their home, and fantasized, in print, about sharing his bed with them. But there is no evidence of any physical involvement. The best guess is that Barrie was celibate or asexual.

Today we find the idea of nonsexuality more bizarre than deviant sexuality. But in Michael Jackson's case, it seems more plausible than any other explanation. All of Jackson's oddities seem to be reactions to what he suffered as a child. Manhandled by strangers, he became a mask-wearing, gloved germophobe. Tyrannized and abused by his father, he turned hyperbolically gentle and generous to children. Terrified by adult sexuality, he froze in pre-adolescent immaturity.

"I haven't been betrayed or deceived by children," Jackson once said. "Adults have let me down." Kudos to 12 in Santa Barbara, Calif., who didn't.

heidiho
June 15th, 2005, 06:12 PM
Half of me does believe he just didnt have a childhood and that is why he is that way,i understand that,but there is a time when you have to let go of your bad past and move on....or get help,i dont know if i really believe he molested kids,it might be he just trys to live through them,but i willsay it again,DO YOU HAVE TO SLEEPWITH THEM????????THAT IS JUST NOT RIGHT................

Luba
June 15th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Thanks for posting the article, I've seen many similar to that and some including the books are obviously more detailed.

DoggyLover I completely understand how you feel. I would never leave my children with just anyone either. My viewpoints on this thread are not to reflect that I feel we should be accepting and trusting of everyone. Rather, to not be distrusting of EVERYONE.

:D

Safyre
June 15th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Edited my post so as to not start an arguement
Actually, it had been edited about 5 times, congrats, it seems you feel special that you caught part that was edited :) good for you!
I come to this website to be amused, and boy have I been amused today :)

Luba
June 15th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Safyre your immaturity speaks volumes.

Safyre
June 15th, 2005, 07:59 PM
As does yours

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 15th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Happy Cats:
I see nothing wrong with allowing your "own" children to sleep in your bed. But I would never allow my child to sleep in anyones elses bed, I just think it's wrong. Really, why take any chances?

our boys always end up in our bed at night and that is fine with us.

If you have a son, would you allow him to sleep in another mans bed ??__________________
Never ever no matter who they were.

doggy lover
June 16th, 2005, 08:35 AM
See Luba I'm the oppasite I distrust everyone until they gain my trust and that takes a while.

Schwinn
June 16th, 2005, 11:07 AM
I liken it to the way I am with Daisy. I have no worries that if I put her in a room full of babies, she would never harm a single one. That being said, I would never give her the opportunity to prove me wrong.

Eleni
June 16th, 2005, 11:09 AM
I liken it to the way I am with Daisy. I have no worries that if I put her in a room full of babies, she would never harm a single one. That being said, I would never give her the opportunity to prove me wrong.


well put ITA

Eleni

Prin
June 16th, 2005, 11:13 AM
Safyre your immaturity speaks volumes.
Everybody is has tunnel vision and is immature.

Luba
June 16th, 2005, 12:29 PM
:p to some degree thats very true LOL

Cactus Flower
June 16th, 2005, 01:45 PM
AMEN, Schwinn !

Eleni, what does "ITA" mean? Sorry, I don't know that one :o .

Alright, over the past few days I've hit "reply" SO many times, started typing, then thought better of it and closed out the reply screen. This time I'm going through with it.
I just want to say that, although nobody here ever really has concrete evidence of what anybody else claims about themselves, I have communicated with Luba extensively off board in the past- and this includes discussion about the position she is being "vague" about.
I respect her wish for privacy, and she is not the only one on the boards that has tried to maintain some semblance of anonymity.
Prin darlin, you are very open about most things, but even you have a line that you will not cross in cyber-forums. This is just Luba's line. I hope you can relate to that.
Safyre, I don't know you well, but certainly you have such a line yourself? Please consider this. Please. I know my word isn't worth much to you, but if I'd talked with you long enough to establish such a trust, I would defend you with the same vigilance. All of our differences aside, I truly would.

Can we pull our claws back in, everyone, and let this issue rest?

Luba- I'm sorry if I said too much. I will pull/edit this post immediately if I did.
Prin- ditto that.

heidiho
June 16th, 2005, 01:51 PM
Michael J has issues ,needs to deal with them and stay away from little boys,ok i am done............

Luba
June 16th, 2005, 01:56 PM
CF it's admirable that you would take the time to post that.

If you could leave it to....'gave you no reason to doubt' I'd be happy with that.

Thx muchly ;)

Cactus Flower
June 16th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Done, Ms. Luba :) .

Luba
June 16th, 2005, 02:48 PM
S'alright Miss Sadie lady

Luvmypit
June 16th, 2005, 04:49 PM
Your all under cover agents aren't you? Aren't you?? Hee hee j/k.... am i right?

ok who has that straight jacket?

Cactus Flower
June 16th, 2005, 05:58 PM
*Pulls off shoe and begins talking into it*

"Luba, she's onto us, call backup asap".

:p

Luba
June 16th, 2005, 06:35 PM
"Car 54 where are you?"

happycats
June 16th, 2005, 06:44 PM
Oh you guys !!http://bestsmileys.com/silly/14.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/silly/13.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/silly/2.gif

dmc123
June 16th, 2005, 07:48 PM
Great article, badger, thanks for the post.

Diane

Eleni
June 16th, 2005, 08:02 PM
im sorry ITA means I tend to agree

Eleni