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Tylenol 3's

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 03:22 PM
wow does tylenol 3's space anyone else out?

im a complete zombie today,

granted im very sensative to medication but WOW

i havent felt this mellow since um my exprimental phase, and that was always followed by cheetoes and pizza :P



Eleni

raingirl
June 8th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Don't know..never taken them. I don't take pain meds for anything. I would rather complain about the pain than poison my liver.

I hear they can be fun though!

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 03:26 PM
well i dont usually take pain meds but the pain in my tooth was so unbearable

only other time i had them was after my c sections.

Eleni

raingirl
June 8th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Yeah..I guess those would be painful. When I have a headache or cramps, BF doesn't understand that I'm not interested in pain medication as it will go away eventually!

Blaze01
June 8th, 2005, 03:32 PM
Midol...for cramps and bloat completey spaces me out...to the point where I feel drugged...dont really know why?!?

happycats
June 8th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Tylenol 3 doesn't space me out but, if I take it for any amount of time it ummmm you know, ,causes a um plumbing backup http://bestsmileys.com/toliot/3.gif :o

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 03:41 PM
haha that smily rocks lol


eleni

happycats
June 8th, 2005, 03:53 PM
I took Toradol (sp) once and I was as high as a kite, laughing one minute, and zombie they next, my brother thought I was crazy! :crazy:

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 03:54 PM
ohh i had toredol when i put my back out, after the first one i refused to take it anymore, i was well and truely stoned



Eleni

Sneaky2006
June 8th, 2005, 03:56 PM
You're not breast feeding with those are ya?
Tylenol 3 is with Codeine and is very habit forming, especially for nursing babies.
It makes you very sleepy... I can't take it, it makes me ill.

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 04:03 PM
pharmacist and doctor said they are safe to nurse with,

as far as i know not toomuch gets into breastmilk, and the only side effects is drowsiness in the baby,

but hes not been drowsy.

they must be safe tho because the OB prescribed them after each of my childrens births


maybe i should call mother risk to be sure


Eleni

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 04:04 PM
the tylenol 3s that is, not the toredol, i ahvent taken that while breastfeeding


Eleni

Sneaky2006
June 8th, 2005, 04:18 PM
This is taken from a website that I read.

Codeine may cause addiction and withdrawal symptoms as well as other harmful effects in a nursing baby.

Maybe being it's tylenol with codeine and not JUST codeine, it's okay? I don't know, I wouldn't risk it though.

CyberKitten
June 8th, 2005, 04:26 PM
I would not take tylenol 3 while breastfeeding and am rather surprised a pharmacist said it was fine. It is not as serious a narcotic as say hydrocodone or morphine but it is still a narcotic and comes under the same guidelines as these other meds do. Raingirl, it is the acetemenophen and not the narcotic that affacts the liver and kidneys. Thus, ofor severe pain, one is actually better off taking a narcotic than downing too many acetomenophen. Especially considering how many products have it as part of their ingredients (sinutab, cold remedies, etc). And I have to disagree with you about not taking pain meds when needed and I say this as someone who lives with chronic pain as well as a health care practitioner. It is far better to deal with the pain - even if it is chemically (some people use other methods - biofeedback, ice, heat, etc) than to try to grin and bare it. People who try that end up with heart problems - the effect of pain on the heart - and blood pressure for example.

I know you mean well but it also is hard for people who need pain meds and have severe pain hear you say that. I teach my patients to treat their pain wisely. Even tjough they rae young, they do not want to end up with other problems because pain - which is really a symptom - was not treated properly in the beginning. I do not hand out medications easily either but it is like a stab in the heart (as someone who copes with pain every day) to hear you write it off as if it is nothing. And those opions hurt people because they think they are being whimps when all they are doing is hurting their body. I am not a whimp but need to take pain meds at nigh to sleep and to help regulate my body. I would certainly prefer not to but constant pain is much worse on anyone's system than narcotics of any kind are. I do not mean people who are addicted of course but people who need it - like people with intractible pain or cancer - you might rethink your opinion around those who would be upset by your attitude. I am sure you mean well but it comes across as I am strong and you're not and that sends such a bad message!!

I know I have not explained myself as well as I can - the whole notion of pain makes me frustrated some days. I spent yrs in school but I cannot fix it except with medications and I used to think that was giving in to it until I smartened up and realized that kind of thinking was not at all helpful.

Requiring pain medication does not make one less strong. It allows people to make it through the day so they can live healthy, productive lives. A strong person recognizes when their body needs help. That, combined with the fact some cultures regard pain differently and that everyone has a different pain threshold, makes the topic of pain a complicated one indeed. I myself see a pain specialist for my pain and undergo rather painful procedures so that I do not have to take meds that might make me feel less than alert during the day. Short term pain for long term gain I call it, lol

chico2
June 8th, 2005, 04:27 PM
My son had gotten some Tylenol 3's with codein from a friend at work,he gave me a couple for my headache,I passed out in 5 min,was not completely clear for 48 hours.Never touched them again...I just take Aspirin for headaches,nothing else.

happycats
June 8th, 2005, 04:33 PM
My OB/GYN told me it was fine to take tylenol 3 during my pregnancy!
I didn't though, I wouldn't even take a regular tylenol.

CyberKitten
June 8th, 2005, 04:37 PM
Who! Tyleonol 3 foer a ragular headache is a bit extreme I'd think. I have to agree with you there. I even suggest my patients who want tylenol 3 start with the OTC stuff - acetemenophen with codeine 8 mg and then work up. Two of the 8 mg tabs is sometimes much better than a 30 mg codeine that the T3's have. I recommended to my dad - who was experiencing tough sinus headaches that he take 2 tabs of ASA 325 mg, codeine 8 mg and a bit of caffeiine and one sudafed and he has been managing them well ever since.

Alas, tho ASA is still really a wonder drug, it cannot be administered to children b/c of the Reyes Syndrome connection.

It never ceases to both amaze and frustrate me that for all the research we have done, we still have no new useful pain medications. And the cox2 inhibiotors prooved to be the latest snake oil. Read that great book by Marcia Angell about the pharamcutical industry. A former editor of the NE Journal of Med, she pts out quite convincingly how we have not developed any new meds, just newer versions of old ones along with the inventon of a few new illnesses - like erectile dysfuction and other deopressive illnesses. It's a great read and alas, too true!

raingirl
June 8th, 2005, 04:41 PM
Cyber, I wasn't saying that pain meds make people week...I was just saying that I don't see the point in taking them for me. I didn't know that pain can cause heart problems or high blood pressure though. That's new. Is that really true?

I don't take pain meds because I don't see why I should mask it when I know other things that will fix it. If I get a headache because I"m overtired, I would rather sleep then take a tylenol. Same if I get a headache from the heat or from being dehydrated, I should just drink more water and cool down. THose are about the only times I get headaches.

As for cramps...I just never bother.

I'm also very wary about taking ANY medicine. I never had anything EVER (no childrens tylenol, no antibiotics, nothing) until I was 14. And the first time I ever had any I got a severe allergic reaction to Penicillin. The next antibiotic I had was a sulpha drug, and I had an allergic reaction to that too (had hives for weeks! but the penicillin reaction was far worse..I went into anaphalactic shock). So far I had erythromycin once and was ok, but I have had Fluroquinone drugs several times with no reaction. So...I'm just scared to take anything. I've never taken aspirin or any other drugs before. I appear to be ok with tylenol and motrin, but I still worry my body will have an allergic reaction out of nowhere. When I was in Hawaii, I was swimming and got freaked by a fish and got a little whiplash the day before we left. My BF's uncle was a GP there (he has since passed away) and he offered to prescribe me a pain med for the long plane trip home, but I refused as I was afraid of having an allergic reaction in flight.

Of course, heart disease and high blood pressure run in the family...should I be taking pain meds then? (I've been sore since Sunday as I went to a Belly dancing class on Saturday, and I've been doing all kinds of cleaning and washing and stuff and my back is stiff and sore today).

I was just reading up on Fluroquinone drugs. I didn't know they can be harmful to the eyes. Darn. Glacucoma runs in my family. My doc must hate prescribing things to me. I'm so darn sensitive.

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 04:48 PM
ok mother risk said they are L3 wich is the safest catagory for medications in their classing system,

I am 100% sure they are fine to take, otherwise why in the world would ob's prescribe them to pregnant and post partem women.

trust me Im very careful about what meds I take and what could potentially pas to my breastmilk


and this is an instance where the pain is certainly enough to warrent pain killers

Eleni

Safyre
June 8th, 2005, 05:57 PM
T3's, yes, they can make you loopy... they make my loopy. I refuse to drive after taking one. I've never done drugs, so I can't say if it is the same as illegal substances.

My step dad is a pharmasist, and would not recommed taking T3's when pregnant or nursing.
However, there are also doctors in my city who go so far as NO DRUGS (even Tums or things for heartburN) during pregnancy, even ones the Pharmcists say is okay.

Its what you are comfortable with, know the risks and make your own
decision Eleni.

CyberKitten
June 8th, 2005, 07:20 PM
I see what you mean Raingirl - and I did not explain myself as well as I should have either. And yep, I know this is about tylenol 3 - still not safe for nursing moms. I know a doctor who prescribed it here could be reprimanded for doing so. Not sure what would happen there tho.

When I referred to heart conditions and high blood pressure, I did not mean to siggest that not taking pain meds could cause either one. I meant that if you are reciving pain meds say postop and you are undertreated for your pain, all the traditional mesaurement like BP, OSats, etc would indicate that you are still not improving. Undertreatment of pain can lead to more problems down the road - and I am involved in pediatric pain research since obviously, children who need pain medication are at risk for other problems if their pain is not properly treated. In fact, one key study showed that under-treated pain early in life is associated with pain later in life. Also, if your pain is not well managed, your body may react by increasing your BP. That's all I was trying to say - that it really is important to control pain. It is not good to try to deal with it and think one is not doing well if medications are required.

I do agree with your other observations tho. There are too many scripts handed out in some cases for illnesses that did not even exist 10 yrs ago, Read Marcia Angell's book if you see it. She makes an excellent point!

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 07:26 PM
well I dont know what to say except, I trust the ob who prescribed them to me for all 3 post partem times, and i trust the family doctor and pharmicist, all of wich have given the ok for me to take them

ever mother risk out of the hospital in toronto, i called their hotline since they tell this info about medications said it was ok

so im reasonably sure it wont harm the baby.

Eleni

mona_b
June 8th, 2005, 08:28 PM
I have been taking Tylonal 3's for MANY years now.I admit they do give me a bit of a buzz...LOL

I take them for my Migraines and my cramps.And I tell you,My cramps are unbareable.I have tried everything under the sun.And the only thing that helps is the T3's.

This was another reason I did not nurse my daughter.And being a Catholic and having her in a Catholic hospital they pushed me as hard as they can to have me booby feed.I told them that in no way did I feel comfortable nursing while taking Meds.But that's just me..... :)

Safyre
June 8th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Eleni - all you can do is make educated decisions, you have done that, so great for you :) I understand taking a T3 for tooth pain. I've had way too much work done on my mouth, and while I am stubborn and don't like taking meds, it got to the point where I had to for that.. couldn't sleep with the pain.

When I broke my arm, I didn't take meds.. but Tooth pain... its just unbearable.

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 08:36 PM
i agree, the throbbing my tooth was causing was unreal,

even my c sections were nothing compared to that throbbing, and its not like it came and went, its was constant

i dont know how long it takes for the penicillin to work to fight the infection, im assuming a few days, when it lets up on the throbbing some ill stop the T3s

i ahve been taking less then it says on the bottle, it says 1-2 every 4 hours

and ive been taking one like every 6 or 7 hours.

just to ease the pain off

Eleni

twinmommy
June 8th, 2005, 10:03 PM
dont know how long it takes for the penicillin to work to fight the infection

infection? wasn't this your permanent filling for the root canal in question? That infection shold be long gone before you get your permanent filling,no?

I agree the permanent filling hurts just as much as the original root canal when they extracted the pulp, but make sure your pain isn't from infection.....

as for the breastfeeding, I'm no OB/GYN, but when I inquired for myself I was told that the painkillers were fine even if they were narcotics--only trace ammounts make it into the breastmilk. I was told to wait 4 hours after dental surgery though to nurse--b/c of the anesthetic.

Some believe that it would be worse for your milk and milk supply to lose sleep from being in pain.

Just MO

CyberKitten
June 8th, 2005, 10:06 PM
I guess I feel that just b/c my doctor tells me something that does not necessarily make it right for me. Of course I hope my patients think I am always right, lol That said, the consensus among my colleagues (and I am affiliated with a women and children's hospital) is that it is not healthy to prescribe tylenol 3 to a nursing mother.

The Dean of Medicine thought I was crazy for asking and I just said "well it was someone in Ontario, don't get mad at me. Call them!"

I would ask your doctor again about it but you yourself should do your own research. You could possibly go to the College of Physicians there as well.

I did look it up in my trusty CPS directory - the book that lists every med available in Canada - published by the C Pharm Society - and it is not clinically recommended to prescribe tylenol 3 to a nursing mom. All of the obgyns here say they would not even if demanded so by the patient.

I did not search online since all the info I needed was here but did find this one article: It said "NURSING MOTHERS: Codeine is generally avoided in nursing mothers. Some studies have found codeine in the breast milk of nursing mothers."

Another basic patient monogram on codeine (and tylenol 3 has 30 mg of codeine) indicated: "Codeine may also cause addiction and withdrawal symptoms in a nursing baby."

Yet another simple description said: Using any medication that contains a narcotic during pregnancy may cause babies to be born with a physical addiction to the narcotic. If you are pregnant or plan to become pregnant, you should not take Tylenol with Codeine unless the potential benefits clearly outweigh the possible dangers. As with other narcotic painkillers, taking Tylenol with Codeine shortly before delivery (especially at higher dosages) may cause some degree of breathing difficulty in the mother and newborn.

Some studies have reported that codeine appears in breast milk and may affect a nursing infant. Therefore, nursing mothers should use Tylenol with Codeine only if the potential gains are greater than the potential hazards.

Anyway - I do think you should discuss this with your doctor. And as I said to the Dean, don't yell at me, I am just roviding the info. :) It does not sound wise toi take tylenol 3 if you breastfeed tho. Perhaps your doc can give you something that does not affect the baby? And there ARE alternatives.

Karin
June 8th, 2005, 10:37 PM
If I am not mistaken Tylenol #3 is 1/2 grain of codeine w/ 325mg actemetophen. Any amount of codeine is on the schedule narcotic list here and for good reasons.

CyberKitten
June 9th, 2005, 01:15 AM
You are correct Karin - the actual brand name does indeed contain those amts. There are variations amg the generic issued tabs - a few of the pharmacies in big box stores contain 300 mg acetemenophen but the same amt of codeine. In Canada, you can buy acetemenophen w/ codeine OTC - 8 mg of codeine and a small amt of caffeine (I actually believe the caffeine enhances the ability of both acet and codeine to relieve pain, esp in certain conditions - migraine headaches for one). It is OTC but is behind the counter and legally, a pharmacist must talk to you but that usually means s/he peaks over at the customer. The other variations - tylenol 2 (15 mg codeine) and above are script only as well they should be. (As an aside, the NSAID naproxen sodium - brand name Aleve - is available in Canada only by script but is sold ON the counter smaller mg tabs than the scripts but then one can just buy more of them to achieve the same result. This med however is one of those recently linked to heart probs and I never really considered it an option for cancer patients so free samples and all, those scripts never left my office, esp my patients /w hemotological cancers)/.

I always found it curious to observe why some meds are approved for OTC and others not or approved at all. Now mind you, we have marijuana approved for nausea and glaucoma amg other medical uses - if you think the triplicate forms for narcotics are complicated... ;) If you are the patient, you can grow the plant yourself or designate someone else to do it for you. And if they live in an apt, you need the additional Consent of the Property Owner. Part of the patient's application must be filled in by his/her doc. I have several patients - teens - who legally take marijuana for nausea or pain relief.

I hate to bring up that book again - the one by Marcia Angell but one of her examples in how the pharmacutical industry prolongs a drug or patent is by finding a new use for the med. She does not discuss gabapentin but many see it as the new snake oil of medicine - a drug for everything. My pain managemnt doc actually convinced me to try it but I did not care for the side effects and it did not really relieve my pain so I discontinued it. I saw an ad the other day that was a great example for what she means. The makers of zantac (it's late er early actully - I am waiting for a patient due to arrive in a copter (the ones the hospital's neighbours complain about, sigh!! They love 15 mins from a hospital but would deny its rapid services to those who do not, nice ppl NOT!!!) have introuduced zantac 150 and zantac 25 for CHILDREN!! Of course, the new zantac 150 is expensive and people are asking for it, not realzing that two of the generic 75 mg ranitidine which is much cheaper will give them the same result. And the idea of marketing ranitidine to children just really sits in my craw!! It's not bad enough that these companies are making huge profits from chemically manipulating depressed kids with drugs not wll studied in the long term. Now we are going to prevent ulcers in 5 yr olds!!! (and that is what the CPS prescribing guide actually says - for the prevention of and maintenace of pH yada yada, Arrrrrgggghhhh!!!!) Never mind lowsec (known as prilosec in the US which in the next 20 yrs will be shown to have been carcinogenic - there are published studies that show this now but I am waiting for the first person who will correlate his or her cancer with his or her antacid.

Anyway - enough of my rant!! Gotta go. Eleni, please do not take a narcotic while you are nursing. I say this not just as a doctor but as someone whose mother came into contact with a herbicide when she was pregnant for me and I really do have a great life but have spent more time as a patient in hospitals than I ever wanted to. So I know when it is suggested a certain percentage may develop adverse reactions to a drug(like say birth defects), it actually can happen. Even if the studies indicated there was a 1& chance of probs , it is not worth it to your baby!! And if you have a good stomach, anti-inflammatories have greater efficacy than narcotics for dental pain. And once the antibiotic starts to work, you will not need anything as strong as tylenol 3!

Eleni
June 9th, 2005, 04:46 AM
infection? wasn't this your permanent filling for the root canal in question? That infection shold be long gone before you get your permanent filling,no?

I agree the permanent filling hurts just as much as the original root canal when they extracted the pulp, but make sure your pain isn't from infection.....

as for the breastfeeding, I'm no OB/GYN, but when I inquired for myself I was told that the painkillers were fine even if they were narcotics--only trace ammounts make it into the breastmilk. I was told to wait 4 hours after dental surgery though to nurse--b/c of the anesthetic.

Some believe that it would be worse for your milk and milk supply to lose sleep from being in pain.

Just MO

yep infection, and yeah its the permanent filling, teh dentist feels there was some left over infection?

i thought the whole point of the root canal was to prevent that.

needless to say its time for a new dentist.

as for teh Tylenol 3's

I have an excellent doctor, one whome ive had while breastfeeding ty and caring for all 3 of my children. eone who i trust trmendously and if he says its safe I beleive him.

not to mention i had an OB prescribe it to me while nursing, and the pharmacist and mother risk say its ok, then I beleive its ok.

as you can tell I have done my research. and no offence intended here, but im so much more likely to beleive MY doctor who is a family doctor who sees nursing infants daily, and my OB who sees pregnant and post partem women daily.

then a doctor who im aquainted with over the internet.

there are many many people who beleive nursing women should take nothing.

i personally thing thats rediculous, the stress of being in pain could greatly reduse my supply, and that is a far greater problem then the baby feeling drowsy from the Tylenol 3 ive taken to control the pain.

Eleni

Bearsmom
June 9th, 2005, 07:25 AM
I was prescribed T3's after my c section, and they made my gums blister. I really didn't have that much pain while healing from the section, and didn't take them after my reaction to them.

I was b feeding, but wasn't told if they were safe or not, then again my discharging physician barely spoke english, so it was a challenge to figure out WHAT he was saying about anything!

Since I suffer from debillatating migraines, my drug of choice is Advil Liqui Gels-two of those bad boys, and I'm good as new.

Eleni
June 9th, 2005, 07:27 AM
i agree with you there advil is great for migraines, I get them too, to the point where ill be throwing up.

but if i get some advil as soon as i see im starting a migraine, it heads it off


Eleni

CyberKitten
June 9th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Gheez Eleni, don't get defensive. I know you are in pain and you said before you trust your doctor. I just think you should ask him again and be absolutely sure. And I am NOT an internet doctor, just a doctor trying to help. Maybe I should just say nothing but it's hard not to when I do know what's good and what's not in terms of medications. It is an area I do research in! I guess I would say this to you even if I did not have an MD. Research it more - it is your child and your life!! And I suppose as someone who ended up with medical problems b/c of something my own mother came into contact with, I am even more miliant about the subject. There is a risk and you can read about it yourself without even listening to me. Don't just accept the word of one doctor or any doctor - educate yourself about it.

Anyway - I do hope the infection is better and the antibiotic has kicked in. This will make this all a moot point, lol

Eleni
June 9th, 2005, 12:26 PM
ill make this last post then im done with this, im not oen to beat a dead horse.

I did research, I sought a 3rd opinion even

1} i spoke to my doctor
2} I spoke to my pharmacist
3] i spoke to mother risk, they specialise in knowing the safety of medications in pregnancy and breastfeeding, id find the link but quite frankly i dont need to justify the fact that I know something im taking is safe

and I wasnt meaning your just some intrnet doctor, i mean some doctor ive seen on the internet.

I dont know you personally, or your qualifications, in fact i ahve nothing to go by but your word, however, i trust that you are a doctor because i trust people at face value, im jsut not about to stick my medical or my childrens medical on the line to find out im wrong or right

you dont know who is real and who is not on the net, not accusing you of being fake, but in real life i can see a doctors qualifications, and speak to them and their peers, and i can know what hospital they work in and see their work environment.

I can not do that for someone ive met on the internet.

I trust every one of the people who help me look after the health of me and my child.

and most of all I trust my own instincts and my own intelligence when it comes to raising my babies and taking care of their health.

thats my last comment

Eleni

CyberKitten
June 9th, 2005, 02:56 PM
I understand how you feel - and this will be my last post on the topic, I hope, lol. I am sure nothing will happen - all the studies (and that's what I mean by research, not just talking to people) seem to indicate that codeine will find its way into your milk while you are nursing and while it is not likely to be a situation where addiction or more severe problems will occur, it still is not considered to be totally safe. I am guessing your doctor was thinking b/c you are only taking it for a short period of time (am assuming you are?) that it might be OK. S/he may just have different standards that I do - not to mention that if this doctor were practicing in Nova Scotia and you reported this to DoctorsNS (I know, the org needs a better name - I preferred the old oone, maybe I do not like change but I do not think that's it exactly), there would be an investigation. I sit on an ethics committee at our hospital and another committee of the Medical Society that investigates doctors who for whatever reason do things that are not correct or are unethical. And while you may be comfortable taking a narcotic while you are nursing your baby, it is not something I would recommend. I am not saying this to hurt your feelings or to have you hurt mine but thinking I am some nutcase on the internet (I am a Harvard educated MD who is Board certified in several specialties, have a PhD in biochemistry - a joint MD-PhD program I completed at Harvard and I have won international awards for my research on pediatric pain). This is the 2nd time I recall you saying something about your doctor that concerned me. I offered my advice only b/c you asked about it, not b/c I have mega time on my hands to worry about what every local GP out there is doing or not doing something wrong.

To research this issue, you yourself (NOT me, NOT your family doctor, NOT any pharmacist in a drugstore , NOT even your best friend) should read everything you can on the subject. Go to the respected medical journals and not just some site put up by someone who may not be qualified. The monograph that accompanies the medication - most pharmacies have them now - will say right in it (They all use the same boilerplate one from the CPS directory) that codeine is contraindicated in nursing mothers. Doctors and pharmacists have the more technical version and it says the same thing only listing a few studies that demonstrate the veracity of the info. Your doctor must have a CPS directory in his/her office. Ask her/him about it.

However, you seem comfortable with this and I guess I have to tell you I am not. And it is not the fact I am a doctor that concerns me so much as the fact my own birth defects (I am fine now thx to surgery) were the result of my mom being exposed to measles when she was pregnant so I have an emotional attachment to the whole issue of women taking inappropriate meds while pregnant or nursing. There is always the small chance that something will happen and I do not believe - especially when there are alternatives - that it is worth the risk to your baby. I am sure your baby will be fine but even without a medical degree, I'd be saying the same thing. You do not require a PhD or MD to do the rsearch I told you about. Do not listen to people. Read for yourself!!

And question your doctor more!! Do not accept what s/he says. I have learned a long time ago that just b/c someone has an MD does make their right or ethical. I have seen too many cases of doctors not doing the right thing. You as a parent must be responsible too.

I guess in this case, the worse thing that could happen is that somehow the narcotic will interfere with the baby's respiratory system (all narcotics, codeine being the least strong of this class of drugs) depress the respiratory system, and fortunately you are not taking it long enough for the baby to build up a tolerance. If you did say take it over a period of time and the baby needed surgery (we operate on very tiny babies in my work), that tolerance would mean the baby would require more pain medication - an issue b.c of the age of the patint.

But I do ask you to research it yourself and again, do it properly this time - read the journals and medical texts online or go to a medical school library near your home if there is one. Since you won't listen to me - even tho my objective was simply to help - please at least for your baby's sake, do the right research!! Get it in writing! Don't waste time trying to hurt my feelings. Take the time to read about the medication and its effect on babies!! Please!!!

kandy
June 9th, 2005, 04:06 PM
While reading you guys going back and forth on whether the tylenol 3's are safe for nursing moms or not - I was thinking that it would be nice if pain killers worked on me the way they apparently work on you guys! I have a very low tolerance for pain, and a very high tolerance to pain killers. I was burned from my ribs to my knees (3rd degree mostly) when I was 12 and went into convulsions. At the emergency room, they gave me morphine and all it did was stop the convulsions - didn't knock me out like they wanted. That's when they realized that painkillers don't work well on me. At the dentist I always have to have the gas as well as the novacaine - and I always feel it - sometimes more than others. The times when I have had to take painkillers, I have to take twice as much, twice as often to get any relief. When I was in labor, they decided to stop it because I had been going too long - they gave me morphine without telling me that's what they were giving me. 2 shots later, they realized that it wasn't working. All it did was piss me off because they thought I would sleep and they sent my husband home! He got called back to the hospital less than 1/2 later after the nurses were tired of me calling them every name in the book. They didn't tell me they gave me morphine until I asked why my son sounded so stuffy. Apparently the morphine did something to cause his lungs to become congested. I read an article recently about people with red hair not responding to pain medication like others do. Although my hair isn't red, most of my family has red hair - so maybe there is something to that. Anyway - be thankful they work on you at all!

CyberKitten
June 9th, 2005, 11:20 PM
Kamdy,

Everyone has different levels of pain tolerance levels. I know exactly what you mean. I have some patients who zip thru surgery and require little medication. Others will do well with one procedure but for the next external factors may affect their pscholofical well being and their pain tolerance is depressed so thet need more of whatever we are giving them.

I do research on pediatric pain so your situation intrigues me. For yrs, it was thought that babies did not even feel pain and even now pediatric pain rsearch is not seen as seriously as it should be some. And now we are learning that children who were not treated properly or well for pain - as in did not get the needed amount when they were young - grow up requiring more of the medication than they would otherwise have. I wonder if that happened to you. B/c as you know, pain associated with burns is really awful and needs to be treated aggressively!!

You shou;d always tell whoever is treating you before they do about your pain needs. Thx for sharing your story - I am sorry to hear you had to endure so much!!

And yep, sadly, anyone who takes a narcotic whi;e nursing or pregnant does jeopardize their child in some way if only b/c they are giving them the drug as well and it is much more prowerful on a baby than it is on an adult. Eleni. it occured to me later that perhaps it was your dentist who gave you the tylenol 3 and s/he was not aware of the fact you are nursing? Or maybe I did not read the thread as carefully as I should - my life is always in a hurry so I skim things, sigh!! I guess I just cam't see any doc giving a nursing mom narcotics and I know I may be unpopular for saying that but I would tell you the same thing if you were my patient so I certaonly can't be a hippocrite.

I do hope you did the research. Do it for your child!! I am not asking you to listen to me - even if you think I am an internet quack or whatever (I told some of my pediatric residents this and they are now teasing me, lol. My other colleagues have suggsted I stop giving free advice and help if people do not appreciate it and it is going to upset me to be aware of a situation I can't change.

Anyway - I won't belabour the point - for all I know Eleni does not exist and it is one of my med students whose come up with some scenario he knows would get my attention. (It is mostly the "he's" who are the practical jokers, lol I do alot of child protection stuff and have testified as an expert on the effects of drugs on very young babies. And they know this scenario would absolutely have my attention, sighhhh!!

Cactus Flower
June 10th, 2005, 02:59 AM
Never mind lowsec (known as prilosec in the US which in the next 20 yrs will be shown to have been carcinogenic - there are published studies that show this now but I am waiting for the first person who will correlate his or her cancer with his or her antacid.

:eek: Whoah Nelly! :eek:

I have to take Nexium every day. I understand that this is in the same class of drugs as Prilosec. So your comment really caught my attention.

Do you have any links/references that support this cancer connection?

Eleni
June 10th, 2005, 06:32 AM
Kamdy,



And yep, sadly, anyone who takes a narcotic whi;e nursing or pregnant does jeopardize their child in some way if only b/c they are giving them the drug as well and it is much more prowerful on a baby than it is on an adult. Eleni. it occured to me later that perhaps it was your dentist who gave you the tylenol 3 and s/he was not aware of the fact you are nursing? Or maybe I did not read the thread as carefully as I should - my life is always in a hurry so I skim things, sigh!! I guess I just cam't see any doc giving a nursing mom narcotics and I know I may be unpopular for saying that but I would tell you the same thing if you were my patient so I certaonly can't be a hippocrite.

I do hope you did the research. Do it for your child!! I am not asking you to listen to me - even if you think I am an internet quack or whatever (I told some of my pediatric residents this and they are now teasing me, lol. My other colleagues have suggsted I stop giving free advice and help if people do not appreciate it and it is going to upset me to be aware of a situation I can't change.

Anyway - I won't belabour the point - for all I know Eleni does not exist and it is one of my med students whose come up with some scenario he knows would get my attention. (It is mostly the "he's" who are the practical jokers, lol I do alot of child protection stuff and have testified as an expert on the effects of drugs on very young babies. And they know this scenario would absolutely have my attention, sighhhh!!


First off im not jepordizing my child, second off, im not some medical student, if i were id be off studyng and certainly not here going back and fourth with you on this.

if you feel the need to continue cutting down my decision have a blast, but know this

doctors on average dont get much training when it comes to infant nutrition, and let me point out then when a woman is making milk her body filters alot of toxins out of the breastmilk.

many medications do pass into breastmilk, some in quantities too high for the baby to be safe, and others in mere miniscule amounts.

saying i havent reasearched is soemthing you dont know. I may not be a doctor or a scientist but i AM a mother, and as a mother i researched before during and after my childrens birth, ive researches every single time somethings been prescribed to me, ive questioned my doctors hundreds of times, sometimes over and over again. My decisions arent made blindly.

I dont always expect people to agree with them, but I do expect people to respect them.

as for the safety of the medication im currently on, ill validate that with some information I have in the hopes that it will get you off my back on this issue


http://www.kellymom.com/health/meds/aap-approved-meds.html

here is a link of american academy of pediatrics approved medications to take while breastfeeding.

if you read it you will find codeine on it. I couldn not find the canadian reccomendations but I know for a fact they are the same.

if you need yet more proof that ive made an informed decision ill be more then happy to give it. especially if it means ending this discussion

Eleni

happycats
June 10th, 2005, 07:22 AM
I found this on the internet, thought it may be helpfull.

http://parenting.ivillage.com/newborn/nbreastfeed/0,,3wx0,00.html

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/2/T028500.asp#T028508

Eleni
June 10th, 2005, 07:27 AM
thankyou happycats, that link is good, it mentiones taking the medication after nursing, wich is something I do. :thumbs up
and your link is a bit easier to understand then mine hehe

Eleni

Lizzie
June 10th, 2005, 07:42 AM
I wasn't going to pipe in, but here I go.

I understand that you, Eleni, are taking CK's opinion personally as a stab against your doctors and the people who you have had care for your babies. While I don't think she is, I understand that this might be how you are taking her comments.

However, something to remember is that CK has NOTHING to gain at all by sharing her medical opinion here. As I recall, she graduated from Harvard right? Now, if I had the opinion of three well-educated doctors who work in children's medicine and even one of them said something would harm my child, I would personally question my own doctor to the ground until he explained to me why it is that certain physicians disagree with taking T3 while nursing. IF and only IF his response was satisfactory, would I continue taking it...if it was not, then I would ask for something else.

Also, since this drug is questionable for nursing babies, I don't see why it is so difficult to just get a different medication that is 100 per cent safe.

In the end, it is your decision. You won't have been the first nursing mother to take T3 and will likely not be the last...

Eleni
June 10th, 2005, 07:51 AM
lizzie you have a point.

except that I know and trust my doctors. I have seen them treat my kids and do a good job at it, I have spoken to them about many concerns medically.

I travel a half hour on the bus just to go to the kids doctor because I personally feel he is the best in the city.

when i could go to one down the street.

CK probably has the best intentions, and probably knows what she speaks of, but I have no way to know how she is as a doctor

would you trust medical advice given by somebody off the internet over top of a doctor you have seen for years, and trust?
even if she has a harvard degree. I have no way to verify her qualifications to be questioning the advice of my doctor and my childrens doctor.

Im not saying this to offend, I really am not intending that. But taking medical advice from someone I dont know is a great risk dont you think??

if it were my pet and I was asking about a medication, wouldnt you guys tell me that I need to speak to my vet? he knows the case history and certainly would be able to treat my pet properly.

what makes medical advice any different??


Eleni

Eleni
June 10th, 2005, 07:55 AM
I have as well spoke to my doctor about the risks associated with Tylenol 3s while nursing, when they have been prescribed in the past

and he told me to look for reactions in Ty, drowsiness irratability etc.

hes had none of those symptoms.

Eleni

Lizzie
June 10th, 2005, 07:58 AM
I would just treat what CK says as information. If it were me, I would take what I've learned here and through my own personal research to my doctor and question him/her. I know many people who have questionned their treatment before. Even at specialists (people who are expected to know everything about the particular disease or affliction), I've had friends and family members request changes in treatment as they felt what they'd been prescribed was unsuccessful or in fact causing more pain. While it is a hard thing to do, sometimes we MUST question those who we put in an authoritative position in our lives.

It is not okay to have blind faith in these people....no matter how much we feel we know and trust their opinions. We question our parents, teachers, law makers etc....they have decades of experience yet we feel it is okay to do that. The same goes for our physicians...we must be an active voice in our own treatment. If you go online and do your own unbiased research and find that codine is bad for nursing babies, I think it is entirely fair to question your doctor. He/she should never get upset over this. You are a parent and you have a right to question what goes into your body and your babies.

Eleni
June 10th, 2005, 08:02 AM
I dont trust my doctor blindly, and i have researched.

I just dont enjoy the thought of people assuming im jepordizing my children.

when i dont

happycats
June 10th, 2005, 08:29 AM
To each his own :)
I know my doctor told me it was OK to take T-3's while I was pregnant :eek: But I refused, he told me I was a fool to be in pain, when there was nothing wrong with taking T-3's while pregnant. I did not want to take any chances (no matter how small the risk was, I wasn't willing to take it)! I wouldn't even take regular tylenol.

Needless to say, my OB/GYN lost his licence shortly after my son was born.

We all have choices, and we all have to live with the choices we make, be it right or wrong.

Cactus Flower
June 10th, 2005, 12:55 PM
With respect to all who commented, Eleni didn't post a thread asking "Do you think it is safe for me to be taking Tylenol 3 while breastfeeding?". I understand why the issue came up, but I think that this subject/hijacking has run its course, don't you? Eleni has been defending herself for some time now, has asked that the issue be dropped more than once, and even those that can't respect her decision should respect her request to end the argument.

Eleni
June 10th, 2005, 03:12 PM
With respect to all who commented, Eleni didn't post a thread asking "Do you think it is safe for me to be taking Tylenol 3 while breastfeeding?". I understand why the issue came up, but I think that this subject/hijacking has run its course, don't you? Eleni has been defending herself for some time now, has asked that the issue be dropped more than once, and even those that can't respect her decision should respect her request to end the argument.


thankyou


Eleni

Safyre
June 10th, 2005, 05:12 PM
I agree with CactusFlower