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Are we eating tortured animals?

Vas
June 8th, 2005, 11:30 AM
Have we ever questioned ourselves what we are eating and how meat or eggs come to our plates?
I was struck when I saw a video on a street (someone had a portable TV on his chest) showing a horrible "living situation" of commercial farm animals being treated so badly that I wasn't able to continue watching it. Pigs were in stinky places one above the other, not enough place to move or even stand, agonizing beef attached to ropes upside down being pierced by knives, blood flowing in streams, chiken with cut beaks, etc...I couldn't believe this to be true! I though there should be a minimum care for these animals for providing food to our table! :mad:

So my question are: Are commercial farm animals treated in the same way in the US? If yes, don't/shouldn't they get the same punishements as those who mistreat their dog, pig, horse or a bird in "Animal cops" on Animal Planet? Or is it an exlusion?
At what extent keeping animals (even if they are for food) in horrible conditions and torturing them is legal in North America?

It makes me loose my appetite for meat...


P.S.: That's why I'm having frog legs for dinner! :) I hope they were not tortured! :confused:

jiorji
June 8th, 2005, 11:44 AM
yes..........yes they are.


sadly i think there's different rules for pets as opposed to "live stock". when there;s money to be made on animals nobody gives a ****. There are animals tho that have been raised humanely. I think those are in the organic section at the grocery store.

My friend recently turned vegetarian based on those issues. I'm still debating.... Maybe one day i'll have my own farm with happy animals :D

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 12:01 PM
im kinda torn on this part,


I was vegetarian, but diddnt do well as one, i missed out on some nutrition i should ahve been getting and became anemic,

i really prefer not to eat meat but feel I should to keep healthy

that said I do feel very strong for the animals

but even before all the modern conveniences were around people ate meat.

we ahve since day one, so i beleive its kind of a natual order to things.

that doesnt mean torturing the critters or making them suffer is ok its 100% wrong.

but killing them for food, cows etc i dont feel that morally offended by.

if that makes sence?

Eleni

Lissa
June 8th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Yes, pretty much all the meat we humans eat are factory farmed animals - living in filthy, unsanitary, disgusting conditions.

Most, if not all of these animals never see the light of day and they are pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics - which is in part causing so many illnesses in humans. Like you said, the animals are tortured, for instance chickens have their beaks cut or burned off so they can't peck themselves or each other. When farm animals are taken to slaughter they are still alive throughout the horrific process.

It's horrible and I have been trying to take steps toward a vegan lifestyle. I also buy eggs and chickens from a local farmer. However, I don't think I could ever raise my own animals to slaughter and I really hope to be completely vegan one day.

"The Pig Who Sang To The Moon" is an excellent book into the world of livestock and factory farming. Although it was difficult to read it has helped me take steps away from meat, altough I have to admit that it is still part of my diet. I hope I have the willpower to change that, someday soon!

levimh
June 8th, 2005, 12:04 PM
Unfortunatly this kind of thing does happen. There are plenty of videos like the one decribed above, on peta.org. They're horrible and tissues are definitely needed when watching them!

My friend has been a vegetarian for about 4-5 years because of issues like these. I would like to be, but sadly I love the taste of chicken and can't rench myself away from it.

raingirl
June 8th, 2005, 12:04 PM
well, the cows upside down being drained of blood is kinda required and nothing you can do to avoid that. The blood needs to be drained ASAP (sometimes they kill first, sometimes that is how they kill them) as the blood coagulates and causes the meat to go bad. So, all the blood is drained out.

I eat meat and those images don't bother me at all. I studied anthropology in university. I feel that it is totally natural and fine to eat meat, kill animals and use all their body parts. Hot dogs don't urk me at all, even if they are the "lesser used" parts of their bodies. I know how to trap and kill and skin and gut an animal if needed, and I wouldn't feel any remorse or shame doing it.

People eat meat all the time but when they are told how it is done, they just can't beleive it. Well...how did you think it was done? People prefer to live in the dark and not wonder how their food is kept or killed.

Keep in mind that many activists will find the most grewsome horrible pics to show, even if they don't apply locally. Many of those videos are taped internationally where animal cruelty laws aren't as strict. I only buy Canadian products where I know what the laws are and I understand the processes for keeping and killing the animals. For the most part, Canada is great. They still keep a lot of animals in cages...like chickens and pork. The farms that supply Maple Leaf pork don't though (just so you know).

BeagleMum
June 8th, 2005, 12:06 PM
Well, I come from a small town where there were many farmers and I can guarantee that none of them were like that. I have been to A LOT of farms. There are always fields for the cows and horses to be in, never tied up in a barn like what you are explaining. I don't know, maybe it's just around here that people actually care about their livestock, well that is while they own them.

Schwinn
June 8th, 2005, 12:17 PM
Unfortunately, PETA would have you believe that all animals are tortured and killed inhumanely. Those are pretend cows, don't you know, just so you THINK they get to see daylight. For a while, I recall hearing they were saying that the animals were tortured because it was believed the meat was more tender from a frightened animal.

That being said, I do think it happens, unfortunately. But I also believe it is natural for us to eat meat. It is impossible to find in any one place in this world where all the nutrients are required for us to survive are in nature without eating meat. (I'm obviously discounting importing). To me, that tells me that it is natural to eat meat. My sister is vegetarian, and I totally understand her reasoning. However, I need meat, and while I agree that it isn't right to treat the animals inhumanely, I also think that some of the special interest groups blow it WAY out of proportion.

marko
June 8th, 2005, 12:19 PM
That's exactly why I'm a veggie boy and have been for 8 years....I saw some terrible things being done to animals during my travels and it broke my heart.

Though I must confess it was difficult at first and it took 4 months to do - stopped eating red meat - waited 2 months - stopped eating chicken - waited 2 months - stopped eating fish.

Fact of the matter is we must kill to live, it's just a matter of what we choose to kill - Personally I'd rather kill a soybean.

EDITED - (I do stand corrected on my last phrase - There are those (like the Jains for example) that wait for the food to die naturally (ie the apple that falls from the tree). Therefore we don't NEED to kill to live.

Vas
June 8th, 2005, 12:29 PM
People eat meat all the time but when they are told how it is done, they just can't beleive it. Well...how did you think it was done? People prefer to live in the dark and not wonder how their food is kept or killed.

I'm not against killing or eating meat itself. I'm against living conditions that animals must be in. Pigs and cows for example are quite intelligent creatures and it's not their nature to be in stinky places, eat mashed carcass and never be able to move in their lifetime expect for the slaugther day. If it is accepted then I don't understand why private farm owners are not allowed and are punished for keeping their animals in stinky conditions in US? I see no difference!


Keep in mind that many activists will find the most grewsome horrible pics to show, even if they don't apply locally. Many of those videos are taped internationally where animal cruelty laws aren't as strict.


I'm not sure about it, but hope that not all of these images come from local farms...
Dispite that I'm not a vegetarian. Meat provides a good source of protein and energy and I don't know if I could to not eat meat.

raingirl
June 8th, 2005, 01:19 PM
Hahah. Have you ever BEEN in a pig pen? Pigs are the smelliest stinkyest animals EVER! I worked on a farm once, and we cleaned the pig pen out daily, and it still stank like you wouldn't beleive.

Vas
June 8th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Hahah. Have you ever BEEN in a pig pen? Pigs are the smelliest stinkyest animals EVER! I worked on a farm once, and we cleaned the pig pen out daily, and it still stank like you wouldn't beleive.

There are people who even keep pigs as pets at home. They learn tricks just like dogs, are clean and houstrained.
Yes, I have been in a pig pen.It's human being that keeps pigs in stinky conditions and then blames pigs for being stinkiest animals ever.

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 01:41 PM
hmm i worked on a farm where the pig pen was cleaned daily and it was still dirty.


seriously if the critter lives outside and rolls in the mud to stay cool its gonna stink and be dirty, and doesnt mean the critter is unhappy, just means hes stinky and like to roll around in muck

i tend to agree with raingirl on this one

Schwinn
June 8th, 2005, 01:45 PM
I'm assuming there is some basis to the expression "Happy as a pig in..." well, you know.

And I've been in plenty of pig pens. Most of them didn't have the bacon variety living there, though.

Vas
June 8th, 2005, 01:52 PM
hmm i worked on a farm where the pig pen was cleaned daily and it was still dirty.


seriously if the critter lives outside and rolls in the mud to stay cool its gonna stink and be dirty, and doesnt mean the critter is unhappy, just means hes stinky and like to roll around in muck

i tend to agree with raingirl on this one

Yes I agree that pigs have to keep them cool because they can't sweat like people do . And they prefer water to mud, but usually water isn't an option. Pigs can be very clean animals when given choice. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/pigs/smart.html

http://www.gan.ca/animals/pigs.en.html

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 01:58 PM
ok excuse my bluntness here, but are they to provide a sterile swimming pool?


critters roll in the mud in nature all the time, and no one is upset about that, and when some pigs do it its upsetting?

i dont get it, ive never seen a pig unhappy about sitting in mug, i mean granted they cant say "hey can i ahve a shower over here'

but the realisim of it is, how can you provide a ver clean environment for pigs?

as pets its possible yes, but these pigs are for the slaughter, to go to supermarket shelves and such

farmers are by no means rich and providing the pigs with a spotless environment would be a huge waste on resources

I kow the farm i worked on they had trouble with water supply constantly, their irrigation pools were forever drying up, they would never have been able to use more of that then necessary on the pigs and not risk the rest of the farm

and this was jsut a small scale farm, i cant imagine how bigger farmers do it


Eleni

raingirl
June 8th, 2005, 02:12 PM
The pigs at the farm I worked at were for the family only...they had about 6. The LOVED being sprayed with the hose, which of course was in their outdoor pen, which of course turned the dirt to mud, and it was hilarious watching them wriggle in the mud after! They were SOOOO happy. Of course, a large portion of that mud is their poop (no matter what you do to scoop, a lot stays there) so the wet mud stank to high heaven!!!

Luba
June 8th, 2005, 02:12 PM
I eat organic free range everything. I refuse to eat animals that have lived out their lives in torture chambers.

Aside from the cruelty factor it's also unhealthy for 'us' to consume meat, dairy, eggs, poultry from contaminated sources and animals that have been injected with hormones, antibiotics.

Vas
June 8th, 2005, 02:16 PM
ok excuse my bluntness here, but are they to provide a sterile swimming pool?

Eleni

Nobody said that pigs should be provided swiming pools at farms! All they should be provided is food and a clean place to stand, lay down and at least to walk a little bit. If you don't rememeber, in the post I was talking about pigs that are one on another, not able to move.

And to say that pigs are the dirtiest animals ever is not true.

It's like to say that elephants, water buffaloes (as well as many other animals) are dirty because they cool down in mud and to protect themselves from flies and other insects. By the way even horses sometimes roll in mud! :-)

lilith_rizel
June 8th, 2005, 02:22 PM
You will be happy that there are some GOOD farms out there. I worked on one as a kid. Mostly cattle. The cattle was allowed to be oustide whenever they wanted, except for at night, or in bad weather. The owner had cattle dogs, but the cattle came to the barn upon hearing him whistle. They were given plenty of food, stalls clean daily, and they were even rubbed down, and pet daily. Although the mojority of them were dariy cows, they still provide food for us.

By the way, this famrer supplies milk for land o lakes. And they do inspect the barn when they come to get the milk.....

Eleni
June 8th, 2005, 02:38 PM
you missed my point,


pigs get dirty, and that doesnt mean they dislike it,

look at what raingirl mentioned, when the pigs she was around were hosed off they got muddy, their pens got muddy and they loved it.


as for not ahving room to move, the pigs i was around had planty of room

the pen was big enough for 20 pigs, yet there was something like 5-10 in the pen


its was a small farm.


I dont agree with places that are inhumane, ie: dont give room enough for them to be happy and thrive

but i dont think the pigs getting muddy is necissarily inhumane, its natural, that is unless the pen is not cleaned on a regular basis


Eleni

Vas
June 8th, 2005, 02:53 PM
but i dont think the pigs getting muddy is necissarily inhumane, its natural, that is unless the pen is not cleaned on a regular basis


Eleni

I understand what you want to say very well.
Of course that pigs getting muddy is not inhumane! :) Like for many other animals it's necessery to keep them cool and to protect themselves from insects. I say that in general pigs are clean animals. They like to maintain separate eating, sleeping and defecation areas. So it's not natural for them to eat and sleep in their poop.
That's all. Let's finish with it.

nymph
June 8th, 2005, 03:08 PM
Fact of the matter is we must kill to live, it's just a matter of what we choose to kill - Personally I'd rather kill a soybean.

LOL marko. I've heard that the most strict vegetarians don't even eat "living vegetables", for example, only when an apple falls from the tree and "chose to die" that they'd eat it.

I once watched a home video of slaughtering a pig, it was not pretty: the pig was screaming and twisting when they carried him to the slaughering bench, but suddenly calmed down when they pour water over him as he knew what was coming. He didn't even make a sound when the butcher stuck the knife in his heart (I think). When the butcher was all done and hung the dead carcass on the wall, it was as if the dead pig was still smiling. That image got stuck with me ever since.

However I must confess that I'm a meat lover, I love everything about meat: the color, the texture, the smell and the taste, although I'd like to become a vegan someday (healthier for me as I have hypertension), I'm not ready to stop eating meat just yet. I guess it's like everything else: realization first, actions to follow, not that I'm trying to make any excuse for myself, I'm just not ready to give up meat now.

Lise
June 8th, 2005, 03:20 PM
I haven't eaten meat in seven years.I felt that every life was precious it doesn't matter if it is a cow, a dog, a horse or human.I think before people say it's okay to kill certain animals for consumption but not others they should see a pig playing with a ball,feel a calf licking thier face or even watch a chicken enjoying a dust bath in the sun.These animals enjoy thier lives every bit as much as a dog or cat and the idea of killing either of these animals for consumption is unthinkable for most people.A friend of mine does farm rescue and the stories behind her animals would make your skin crawl and yet despite coming from horrible situations her animals are friendly and normal(sound familiar all those in dog rescue?)They have the same abilities to forgive if given a chance.We have chickens here some came from a factory farm,when we got them they couldn't stand up from being in wire cages,they were missing almost all of thier feathers and had been debeaked ,that is what a chicken from a small factory farm looks like the larger ones are worse.Using a woodchipper is an accepted way of disposal of live sick birds,I guess it is quick and painless,but what makes that an acceptable way of killing a chicken but not a cat?

CyberKitten
June 8th, 2005, 03:26 PM
I too think PETA uses the most extreme videos to get their message across. They raise a lot of money but do not put much of it into actual animal care so I am inclined to question the cerdibility of a group like that - and alas, they hurt other associations who through the hard work of unpaid volunteers, actually do take in needy animals.

My dad grew up on a farm and I know many farmers. Not one of them would ever deliberately hurt their animals. Of course, that does not mean that some bad guys are out there - they are and the larger an outfit is, the less they seem to care about their animals.

I guess what bothers me most about groups like PETA is that their supporters tend to be better off economically than most and the ones I have encountered protesting get "preachy" over a topic they barely understand. For ex, I met one young woman demonstrating at KFC over the treatment of chikens - a worthy cause needless to say. BUT those tactics do attain media coverage but they reach primarily the already converted.

I am not a vegetarian but I never eat beef (I actually had a cousin die of CJD Variant -it was a horrible horrible death and I live and expereince death on an almost weekely basis and have seen some bad ones. And yes, there is such an entity as a "good death" - peaceful, home in bed surrounded by family and not in pain. All the deaths I see are too young of course but there are ways to mitigate the pain and the difficulties associated with dying. A bad death is one where despite the best pain meds, one is still uncomfotable, has trouble breathing and requires assistance with almost every bodily function. I am reminded of Dylan Thomas' infamous words when I think of the term "bad death". Many in those circumstance do rage against the dying of the light. As long as I live, I hope never again to see anyone endure what my cousin did - Variant CJD (unlike its rare naturally occuring cousin) attacks adults in their prime and essentially turns their brains to mush. I saw a once vibrant woman - literally the life of the party - initially have difficulty walking and with some neurological functions. In the end, she recognized no one, was scared all the time (there is some degree of paranoia with the illness), was in pain in spite of the meds and her dignity had been robbed of her! The family was not permitted to bury her in a cemetery so even in death, she was permitted no dignity. So - I will never be eating beef again!

I do eat chicken and seafood (Not pork though, with the exception of bacon, sigh! ) but it has to be organic and I have to know the farmer if that's possible! I am fortunate in that I live in the Maritimes so I do know some organic farmers and thus can live in the way I choose.

I do realize for most people in western society, there is no way to know where one's meat came from and how it was handled and probably, given the work of The Canada Health Food Agency and the USDA, our meat is not all that safe nor does it come from animals well cared for. This means we need stronger legislation regarding farmers and their care of their animals!

lilith_rizel
June 8th, 2005, 03:39 PM
If I knew you all a few years back, and lived closer, I would sell you guys the eggs and chickens we sold. We never gave them anything that most farmers did. No steriods...... nothing...... And they were given the best care possible. They got fresh water 2-3 times daily, food twice daily, and were also able to wander the yard. Same way with the pheasents, and the turkey we had. My father couldn't stand being cruel to those guys. They were so wonderful to have around.

Vas
June 8th, 2005, 03:50 PM
If I knew you all a few years back, and lived closer, I would sell you guys the eggs and chickens we sold. We never gave them anything that most farmers did. No steriods...... nothing...... And they were given the best care possible. They got fresh water 2-3 times daily, food twice daily, and were also able to wander the yard. Same way with the pheasents, and the turkey we had. My father couldn't stand being cruel to those guys. They were so wonderful to have around.


It's encouraging to read that there are still small farms where animals are happy and well cared.

My family friends used to have a small farm. All animals had their names! I'm so missing fresh milk taste and homemade cheese....

lilith_rizel
June 8th, 2005, 04:04 PM
We had about 40-50 chickens, and about 20 pheasents. 5 or 6 chickens actually had names, being that those were the only ones we could tell apart from the rest. I enjoyed just sitting down bu the coop and watching them.

CyberKitten
June 8th, 2005, 04:15 PM
My grandmother also had names for all her barnyard critters - so I kind of judge how well animals are cared for on the farm by whether or not they have names and are considered part of the family. For me, it is a bit like a gold standrd, lol

It also irks me on occasion that most of the protesters have no clue about the operation of a farm. They protest with their expensive designer clothes on ("no Logo" to the contrary) in front of a fast food place and most (not all) never take the time to meet farmers and get to know what it is like. You know the expression - never judge anyone till you've walked a mile in their shoes. That's how I feel about this issue.

Trinitie
June 8th, 2005, 04:51 PM
While watching animal cops last night, they rescued some pigs from horrible, and I mean HORRIBLE, conditions. The shelter worker stated a little known fact about pigs. They don't have sweat glands, therefore must roll in mud to cool off.

Pigs are extremely clean animals, and highly intelligent. If given the choice of a (pardon the pun) a pig stye or a clean, hay filled enclosure with some mud for wallowing, they would most definately choose the clean enclosure.

melanie
June 8th, 2005, 05:32 PM
as a vegetarian i find that one of the funniest most ironic questions i have ever heard.

yes yes yes, the meat you eat is only bred to serve you, to serve the feats of death in life so to speak.....and as we all know there is no need for meat in a diet other than sheer desire, lets jsut say that there are and have been billions of healthy vegetarians aroudn the world...

as meat eaters you should admit to where you meat comes, anyone who says that an animal is not tourtured for your meal has either slaughtered the animal in their kitchen using nice methods or is lying to themselves...

yesyes yes animals are tourtured every day to povide tht next hamburger or sausage or handbag or shoes or .........

yes there are free range chooks, i have no porblem with that what so ever, (for more depth of this opinion please see the first thread on whale slaughter) and i know my dad used to kill our sheep, it was always swift and as pain free as possible, if you kill your own then i think you have proven your acceptance of how your meat is sourced and you appreciate it more, and the animals sacrifice.......

for me, to eat the flesh of another is the biggest mortal sin possible and is a cruel and heartless typically human thign to do, i personally find it truly disgusting.......

yes meat is murder and always had been. :mad:

iRONKNiGHT
June 8th, 2005, 05:35 PM
Okay so i was too lazy to read the full thread, but i taught Pig's are smater than dog's and can learn much more commands ? :) Oink oink!!

Coyped off a site i'll provide link for more Reading :)

Believe it or not, pigs are much cleaner and even smarter than dogs.

I spent part of my childhood on a farm where pigs were raised free-range. Dozens of pigs were free to come and go to large paddocks, from a large, open, concrete barn, that was full of straw and subdivided into three areas. Incredibly, NO PIG EVER WENT TO THE TOILET in that barn! It did not smell! Pigs HATE to make a mess in their own home!

The only reason that pigs smell is because people keep them in tiny, tiny pens which is very cruel for such a smart animal. They probably smell better than humans would smell, if humans were kept in cages of the equivalent size and forced to live with their waste products.

There have been a number of people who claim that pigs are smarter than dogs. I was watching a show on Animal Planet in 2001 and a man who trained pigs claimed that his pigs knew more tricks than his dogs, and were faster to learn.

My own observation of pigs is that any animal that makes so many different noises just has to be smart. I'm pretty good at imitating animal noises, but I have never been able to fully imitate the noise of pigs. If you listen to happy pigs out in the open, they make many, many more noises than the proverbial 'grunt' and 'oink'. It seems as though they have a full vocabulary!

There are worse things than dying. It is incredibly cruel for any animal, let alone a highly intelligent, super social animal such as a pig, to have to spend it's whole life in a tiny, tiny pen where it can't even LIE DOWN, let alone do all the many things pigs love to do.

Plus, when a pig lives in these types of conditons, its body produces a lot of extra toxins which will cause your health to deteriorate if you eat it.

Please, please, please don't eat pork, bacon or pig products that are not labelled free-range (which is most pork products). If a pig has to die for you - at least let her have a happy life!

Further Reading here (http://www.relfe.com/pigs.html).

Vas
June 8th, 2005, 09:21 PM
as a vegetarian i find that one of the funniest most ironic questions i have ever heard.

yes yes yes, the meat you eat is only bred to serve you, to serve the feats of death in life so to speak.....and as we all know there is no need for meat in a diet other than sheer desire, lets jsut say that there are and have been billions of healthy vegetarians aroudn the world...


as meat eaters you should admit to where you meat comes, anyone who says that an animal is not tourtured for your meal has either slaughtered the animal in their kitchen using nice methods or is lying to themselves...

yesyes yes animals are tourtured every day to povide tht next hamburger or sausage or handbag or shoes or .........


yes there are free range chooks, i have no porblem with that what so ever, (for more depth of this opinion please see the first thread on whale slaughter) and i know my dad used to kill our sheep, it was always swift and as pain free as possible, if you kill your own then i think you have proven your acceptance of how your meat is sourced and you appreciate it more, and the animals sacrifice.......

for me, to eat the flesh of another is the biggest mortal sin possible and is a cruel and heartless typically human thign to do, i personally find it truly disgusting.......

yes meat is murder and always had been. :mad:

So it is white or black?!
Meat helped the stone man to evolved into a homo sapiens (well, not in all cases sadly :rolleyes: ). Animals provided food, clothes and became companions. Early humans respected animals as well as nature, because without them they wouldn't have survived (as you can see it from their religion, culture , traditions, fossils and later from stories and legends)!
In today's world people are so obssessed with money that sometimes there is no place left for a seed of humanity nor a minimum respect for a living being... I think that keeping animals in awful conditions is much worse than killing and eating their meat.
In fact, as a meat eater "I find that one of the funniest and most ironic" things is that "to eat the flesh of another is the biggest mortal sin possible and is a cruel and heartless typically human thing to do". :rolleyes: If it's not a flesh of another human being , believe me there are worse things then that. :evil:

Schwinn
June 8th, 2005, 09:41 PM
I have no problem with vegetarians, but eating meat is natural. Yes, a lot of us do it for the taste, but to say that there is no other reason is completely false. Vegetarism is not natural. That doesn't make it wrong, and if you can do it, good on ya, but humans were meat eaters long before they were vegetarians. It is (almost) impossible to find food that supplies all the nutrients required in one part of the world (occuring naturally). I'm not confident enough to say it is impossible. But the majority of the areas of the world where people have always been, it's been proven that if meat were eliminated from thier diet, people would not have survived. To me, that's the greatest proof that it is natural for us to eat meat. Now, it is true that with advancements in technology and with a world market, we can live without meat. However, given that I participate in sports which require muscular strength, include heavy weight lifting, and the fact that I don't have the financial wealth required to maintain and increase my muscle mass through supplementation and no meat, yes, I also eat meat for health reasons. And trust me, I have researched the issue, and in my mind, the fact that you would be required to eat entire meals of supplements in order to build muscle, a natural occurring process of the body (before we spent our days sitting in chairs all day) is further proof that I am following the natural instinct of humans.

jiorji
June 8th, 2005, 10:10 PM
LOL marko. I've heard that the most strict vegetarians don't even eat "living vegetables", for example, only when an apple falls from the tree and "chose to die" that they'd eat it.

gosh...no offense to those die hard vegans but where does one draw the line??

please don't take my point the wrong way but it seems that society today is about guilt. they feed guilt to us through every possible source. You should feel guilty for eating(you're too fat and ugly), feel guilty for NOT eating(you're too skinny and ugly), why has it become so complicated to live???
Not everything on tv is real. It's called propaganda, different groups such as PETA may too use key words to get you to be on their side. I DO AGREE on the fur issue. No animal should be killed for fashion. I find it selfish.

BUT....i do believe that we must eat to survive. So the whole apple thing is purely ridiculous. I find it funny how people behave like that. It's cool to be a vegetarian because it's an excuse to not eat.

Having said that, i don't think an animal should be at all, at any time, no matter the circumstance, be tortured, whether it's a pet or raised for eating....but we must eat to survive. It's always been like that.

i don't think i'll ever be a successful vegetarian(not trying to be one) as long as Harvey's is around. sigh....

nymph
June 9th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Actually I don't believe that we must eat meat to survive, at least not in today's world anymore. But I choose to eat meat because I just love it!

I honestly believe that the reason I eat meat is built in my blood, perhaps from millions years of evolution. I watch my puppy Diego, he gets so excited at the first smell of fat and grease, it's his natural animal instinct.

There are tons of debates on this subject. For instance, I've heard that some vegetarians argue that human teeth are not built to eat meat, because we use the back teeth to grind down food like most herbivores.

I think that it's natural for humans to eat meat, but it is by choice to be a vegetarian. I would like to be a vegetarian someday, for health reasons, but it would be a tough choice to give up the tender juicy meat.

Crazy Hippie
June 9th, 2005, 11:56 AM
I must say, I had a good laugh at this post.
Who ever said that vegans won't kill vegetables? Only eating apples that choose to die? Give me a break! Vegetables do not have a central nervous system...they do not feel pain. I don't think you'll find a vegetarian out there who believes they do!

And Schwinn, I found your post to be totally hilarious. You think that eating meat is healthier than going veg? Of course people eat meat for the taste, who doesn't like the taste? We who quit eating it do it for the animals, and, ahem, for our HEALTH. Why is it that vegetarians are so much LESS likely to develop heart disease and cancer? Osteoporosis? May I remind you that heart disease and cancer are leading causes of death in North America? Meat is full of saturated fat and other "toxins" which come from the hormones the animals are fed, antibiotics/meds in their feed, even from smoke and char from cooking...in the end you get clogged arteries and cancer. So you're saying that our only source of protein is meat? Hmmmm..I must have been absent from Nutrition the week we studied protein.

And ya, we were meat eaters before we were vegetarians, but what choice did our ancestors have? At least the animals were respected and nothing was wasted, and the animals did not live in filth. They were not mass produced to be tortured by humans and slaughtered. Their lives had value.

Let me also point out that I too participate in sports and weight lifting, and I am never low on energy or protein. The only "supplements" I take are iron and B12, which cost very little. You do not need protein supplements, just eat other sources of protein! Who ever said you need to "eat entire meals of supplements" in order to build muscle? That's ridiculous. Here's an idea: eat a balanced diet that doesn't contain meat. Voila!

And jiorji, since you like Harvey's so much, have you ever tried their veggie burger? It's the best fast-food veg burger out there. I'm sure you'll continue to eat meat, but give it a try. Pleeeeze?

Sorry about all the ranting, but some people are just so misinformed on this issue. I'm so TIRED of people saying "well I tried to be veg but I got really sick". If you're going to eliminate meat from your diet, you must replace the protein with other protein foods. Living on starch doesn't cut it, of course you'll feel sick! Meat is also a major source of iron, zinc and B12 and these should be replaced in one way or another whether it's thru supps or other foods. And please don't ask me if I live on salad! Yes, um, I eat only lettuce and tomato 3 times a day.

For those meat lovers out there, just want to tell you that Schneiders has recently started selling veggie burgers, veggie dogs, meatless chicken and meatless nuggets. Not sure exactly which stores sell them but I buy them from A&P. I'm telling you this because these products are absolutely amazing, and they are made in a different facility from the meat products. Try them and you won't be disappointed, I promise! Hey Schwinn, did I mention they are high in PROTEIN??

There's a really good video called "Meet Your Meat" that I suggest you check out. Maybe that will throw a new spin on what we veggies are trying to get across.

Dogastrophe
June 9th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Couldn't resist posting this. It is a song by the Arrogant Worms named Carrot Juice is Murder:

********************

Listen up brothers and sisters, come here my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature, trapped in the dirt like a jail
Vegtables live in oppression, served on out tables each night
This killing of veggies is madness, i say we take up the fight
Salads are only for murderers, cole slaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream

I've heard the screams of the vegetables, watching their skins being peeled
Grated and steamed with no mercy.. how do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes murder.. greenhouses prisons for slaves
It's time to stop all this gardening.. let's call a spade a spade.

I saw a man eating celery, so i beat him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again, i'll bite him clean in two
I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage
'cause i stopped the slaughter of turnips, by killing five men in a rage
I told the judge when he sentenced me, this is my finest hour..
I'd kill those farmers again, just to save one more cauliflower

I've heard the screams of the vegetables, watching their skins being peeled
Grated and steamed with no mercy.. how do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes murder.. greenhouses prisons for slaves
It's time to stop all this gardening.. let's call a spade a spade.

How low as people do we dare to stoop
Making our broccolis bleed in the soup
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes
Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato!

I've heard the screams of the vegetables, watching their skins being peeled
Grated and steamed with no mercy.. how do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes murder.. greenhouses prisons for slaves
It's time to stop all this gardening.. let's call a spade a spade.
Is a spade is a spade is a spade is a... spade

Power to the peas! Give peas a chance!
all we are saying, is give peas a chance


:D

nymph
June 9th, 2005, 12:34 PM
Crazy Hippie: I respect your choice of being a vegetarian, why can't you respect my choice of being a meat lover? I really didn't appreciate the aggressive, sarcastic, sometimes offensive tone of your voice.

You know who you remind me of: the vegan Californian mom Barbara from Trading Spouses, who said "that's my strong point...because Iím really smart. I thinkÖ no, I know!" and later misspelled the plural form of the word "monkeys", she insisted that the plural form should be changed to "-ies", because "I know what Iím talking about, okay?Ē THAT was hilarious.

Live and learn, because there are so much out there that we just don't know.

nymph
June 9th, 2005, 12:38 PM
Dogastrophe: that's a good one! http://bestsmileys.com/lol/5.gif

Cactus Flower
June 9th, 2005, 12:47 PM
I just wanted to point out that during our most primitive times, meat was not a regular part of our diet. That only happened once we began making tools, which brought us into an entirely different era. Anthropologists and evolutionary scientists use the tool-making era as a landmark point in our history. Our diets changed dramatically once we were able to hunt for food, using crude weapons for the kill, as well as tools for gutting/skinning etc.

Before then, we ate mostly veggies, roots and fruit.

Of course, you'll find conflicting theories in any/every field. But this one makes sense to me, and will also explain the argument that is so often used about us not having "carnivorous" teeth.

This has been an interesting thread, one that I've really enjoyed reading.

Schwinn
June 9th, 2005, 03:36 PM
And Schwinn, I found your post to be totally hilarious. You think that eating meat is healthier than going veg? Of course people eat meat for the taste, who doesn't like the taste? We who quit eating it do it for the animals, and, ahem, for our HEALTH. Why is it that vegetarians are so much LESS likely to develop heart disease and cancer? Osteoporosis? May I remind you that heart disease and cancer are leading causes of death in North America? Meat is full of saturated fat and other "toxins" which come from the hormones the animals are fed, antibiotics/meds in their feed, even from smoke and char from cooking...in the end you get clogged arteries and cancer. So you're saying that our only source of protein is meat? Hmmmm..I must have been absent from Nutrition the week we studied protein.



I'm glad you find me funny. I've been told that many do. And I don't think you were absent from nutrition when you studied protein, just when you read my post. No where did I say protein is only found in meat. Legumes are an excellent source. And why is it vegetarians are less likely to develop heart disease and cancer? That's an easy one. The average vegetarian is more aware of nutrition than the average meat eater. The average meat eater eats junk food and all sorts of garbage, the type of thing that causes cancer. It's a false argument. Is the average vegetarian avoiding these health issues because they don't eat meat, or because they don't make the same poor nutritional choices of the rest of the population? There are millions of meat eaters, who live a healthy lifestyle, who do not have heart disease and cancer. I find it funny when a vegatarian uses that argument, as it is very misleading. As for lifting weights, I'm speaking from my experience with bodybuilding, both professional and amatuer. Every vegan bodybuilder I've met has had to have a tonne of different supplements in order to allow thier muscles to do what they do naturally, grow. Same with sports requiring muscular strength. I defy you to show me a vegetarian line-backer who isn't taking a tonne of supplements. Actually, I'd be interested in meeting a vegetarian linebacker.

So, while yes, I eat meat because I enjoy the taste, I also think it is more natural and, as part of a healthy lifestyle, I do it to remain healthy. There's been plenty of scientific studies that support my decision. So before you get on your high soy-horse, and tell me I only do it for one reason, realize I'm respecting your reasons, and I'm using plenty of scientific studies for mine. I don't fault anyone who becomes a vegatarian because they have moral problems with eating meat. I'm morally opposed to eating asparagus. But you know what? Without scientific, absolute proof and agreement, it's healthier in your opinion, just like I feel it is healthier, in my opinion, to eat meat. Now, you want to argue about whether the hormones and such that a lot of today's meat contains (again, not all)? That's a different arguement.

One last thing, I really have to laugh when I hear that the meat I'm eating is coming from a tortured animal. "We are going to make you into a hamburger. But first we are going to hook up these jumper cables to your nipples". Yes, I only buy meat from Abu Gharib ranch.

Jackie467
June 9th, 2005, 03:59 PM
I wasn't going to get into this thread but I do have to say there are medical reasons to not becoming vegitarian. Me for instance, I have very bad animia I take four 250 mg of iron a day because of this, do you have any idea how much that rips up your stomach? If I didn't eat the meat that I do I would have to take twice possible 3 times of iron that i'm taking now, I couldn't even begin to image what my stomach would be like then. As it is now I have to drink 3 glasses of benifiber (the brand that works the best with me) a day, and trust me that stuff is terrible, just to keep from getting so backed up I have to go to the hospital. I have stomach aches every day, I started taking iron 2 years ago and I still get the stomachachs. And I do take my iron after eating a meal so that isn't it. If I were to become a vegitarian I would be taking so much iron I wouldn't be able to stand it. So yes there can be medical reasons for not being a vegitarian. I don't know why my body has so much trouble with Iron, but it does and there is nothing I can do other than take iron supplements.

mrjohndoe
June 9th, 2005, 04:00 PM
If you don't know directly where your food comes from than I'd say there is 100% chance that animal has suffered some form of abuse.

I worked in the corporate hog farm environment for five years for more info click here:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=140027&postcount=29

I'll give you an example at one of the places I worked there was this guy -- let's call him idiot-- who like to use a cattle prod (nice name for stun gun) to load animals into the trailor. This use to get me very angry, as they were under enough stress and usually as result it took 2 to 3 times as long to load them.

One time I stood back and let "Idiot" do his normal routine and after about five minutes all 12 animals (250 pounds each) turned back on him. Needless to say I had to save his "bacon" and he got the point.

I love seeing free range piggies or any animal for that matter. There are plenty of humane ways to farm and Holland/Europe has imposed many of them. We need to get with the times.

Schwinn
June 9th, 2005, 04:02 PM
If I were to become a vegitarian I would be taking so much iron I wouldn't be able to stand it.

On the flip side, what a cool party trick to carry a whole bunch of magnets without using your hands! Oh, and you could put different sayings on your shirts with those alphabet letters, without changing your shirt! Heck, you wouldn't even need a shirt! You could...

Okay, I'll stop now.

iRONKNiGHT
June 9th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Crazy Hippie you're RIGHT ON Mate!! :)
I agree 100%

melanie
June 9th, 2005, 05:50 PM
:p craxy hip there was absolutly nothing wrong with your post and no undertones, your jsut statuing your case...and go girl, thanks for posting whawt i was thinking, jsut couldnt be bothered doing it....in fact i find quite a condecending tone in many of the psots here, i thnk we all jsut need to stop and accept each otehrs beliefs and opinions a bit more, so i dont live like you, does it matter....

vas, im not sure if you were trying to be offensive with your tone, if so i didnt get it....i am trying to assume you didnt mean it...

and yes i sound liek a minority here, but in some parts of the world my beliefs and practice are the majority...and as far as religion and flesh consumption goes, why im sure there are millions of hindu and buddist in the world who would disagree......

there were many other factors of our evolution other than meat consumption (such as the ability to develop tools), and there is countless evidence to show vegetables and wild food played a huge role in evolution too and were eaten during evolutionary stages..

and i would disagree that it hasto be human flesh to be offensive, i have had some wonderful relationships with cows and chickens, they have been dear friends, and i would never eat the flesh of a loved one, jsut because ia creature is different to me does not make it any less of my equal or deserving of the right of love, respect and a nice life.......

if the cows ever grow opposable thumbs and turn on you with guns i am hoping they will be my friends for not eating, them and then i will become QUEEN OF THE BOVINE yay what an honor :D


have you ever heard the song cows with guns, very funny...

Fat and docile, big and dumb
They look so stupid, they aren't much fun
Cows aren't fun

They eat to grow, grow to die
Die to be et at the hamburger fry
Cows well done

Nobody thunk it, nobody knew
No one imagined the great cow guru
Cows are one

He hid in the forest, read books with great zeal
He loved Che Guevera, a revolutionary veal
Cow Tse Tongue

He spoke about justice, but nobody stirred
He felt like an outcast, alone in the herd
Cow doldrums

He mooed we must fight, escape or we'll die
Cows gathered around, cause the steaks were so high
Bad cow pun

But then he was captured, stuffed into a crate
Loaded onto a truck, where he rode to his fate
Cows are bummed

He was a scrawny calf, who looked rather woozy
No one suspected he was packing an Uzi
Cows with guns

They came with a needle to stick in his thigh
He kicked for the groin, he pissed in their eye
Cow well hung

Knocked over a tractor and ran for the door
Six gallons of gas flowed out on the floor
Run cows run!

He picked up a bullhorn and jumped up on the hay
We are free roving bovines, we run free today

We will fight for bovine freedom
And hold our large heads high
We will run free with the Buffalo, or die
Cows with guns

They crashed the gate in a great stampede
Tipped over a milk truck, torched all the feed
Cows have fun

Sixty police cars were piled in a heap
Covered in cow pies, covered up deep
Much cow dung

Black smoke rising, darkening the day
Twelve burning McDonalds, have it your way

We will fight for bovine freedom
And hold our large heads high
We will run free with the Buffalo, or die
Cows with guns

The President said "enough is enough These uppity cattle, its time to get tough"

Cow dung flung

The newspapers gloated, folks sighed with relief
Tomorrow at noon, they would all be ground beef
Cows on buns

The cows were surrounded, they waited and prayed
They mooed their last moos,
they chewed their last hay
Cows out gunned

The order was given to turn cows to whoppers
Enforced by the might of ten thousand coppers
But on the horizon surrounding the shoppers

Came the deafening roar of chickens in choppers

We will fight for bovine freedom
And hold our large heads high
We will run free with the Buffalo, or die
Cows with guns


whooooooo one day i wish, thatll teach yas... :D

Cactus Flower
June 9th, 2005, 07:11 PM
LOL Mel, my son loves that song!

Vas
June 9th, 2005, 09:28 PM
vas, im not sure if you were trying to be offensive with your tone, if so i didnt get it....i am trying to assume you didnt mean it...


I thought your tone was offensive too! Calling us (meat-eaters) "murderers and great sinners"... :evil:

In fact I think that you're a wonderful person and I like you and appreciate you for the love and respect you give to every living being. We are happy to have such people like you on this earth! :thumbs up


there were many other factors of our evolution other than meat consumption (such as the ability to develop tools), and there is countless evidence to show vegetables and wild food played a huge role in evolution too and were eaten during evolutionary stages..


Of course people never thrived on meat alone! Not at all! But even when they became agriculturists, about 20% of their diet was meat.
Recently I saw on discovery channel a docummentary on human evolution. They (scientists) now believe that if people had not eaten meat their brain would not have developed to become highly intelligent creatures!

Nowadays I must agree that less meat- better health and longer life! I think that vegetarians can be healthier then meat eaters if they choose right food. I would like to become a vegetarian, but I find it difficult to replace meat so I try to balance my diet as much as possible...


and i would disagree that it hasto be human flesh to be offensive, i have had some wonderful relationships with cows and chickens, they have been dear friends, and i would never eat the flesh of a loved one, jsut because ia creature is different to me does not make it any less of my equal or deserving of the right of love, respect and a nice life.......


Good! For me cows are for milk and chikens are for eggs and they deserve to live abuse free life! :p
By the way, those who have tried fresh milk from a happy and free cow (that eats grass and not mashed bones), would never again drink milk from supermarkets! You will never believe how tasty milk can be! :love:

Schwinn
June 9th, 2005, 10:08 PM
:p craxy hip there was absolutly nothing wrong with your post and no undertones, your jsut statuing your case...and go girl, thanks for posting whawt i was thinking, jsut couldnt be bothered doing it....in fact i find quite a condecending tone in many of the psots here, i thnk we all jsut need to stop and accept each otehrs beliefs and opinions a bit more, so i dont live like you, does it matter....

The words were fine, it was the arrogance that came through with them. You're right, there's been condensencian on both sides. If people want to debate, that's fine. But there's enough arguments and studies from both sides to say that there is no clear-cut answer.


if the cows ever grow opposable thumbs and turn on you with guns i am hoping they will be my friends for not eating, them and then i will become QUEEN OF THE BOVINE yay what an honor :D

Aw, yes. The great COWPOCALYPSE!! Don't think for a minute, my dear Melanie, that given half a chance they wouldn't eat you. You know, I've heard people say that cows are dumb, but I don't believe it. You know when the are looking at you, and it seems to be a blank stare? Don't be fooled. They're thinking, "If I could find a barbecue right now, you'd SOOO be my lunch!" That's why you never see farmers leaving thier barbecues ANYWHERE near the fields they keep the cows in. The biggest threat to human's dominance of the species is the invention of the push-button starter, thus ensuring the ability to start a barbecue without opposable thumbs. Oh yes, if we're not careful, the great cow uprising will ensue. :D

Crazy Hippie
June 10th, 2005, 10:32 AM
Nymph, I wasn't being aggressive. And I'm sorry I don't respect your decision to be a "meat lover". I don't understand why people who love animals see no harm in eating their flesh. I agree with Melanie: meat is murder.

Schwinn, I wasn't attacking you for eating meat and I wasn't trying to be "arrogant". Sarcastic maybe, but that's just me. When I read your post, the message I got was that you were making excuses for why you need meat and that meat is healthier for you. Every meat eater has pretty much the same argument. You said you can't afford protein supplements to quit eating meat. That tells me that you view meat as basically the only food protein source. Btw, where are these "scientific studies" you speak of? Maybe you should check out some of the studies on cancer and obesity (even in kids), related to diet in your own country. For now I guess I'll get back on my "soy-high horse".

Jackie, I just wanted to ask you what kind of iron supps you take? I take a liquid iron supp (brand name is Floravit) and it won't cause you the problems of getting backed up like the pill form. That's because it's much more easily assimilated by the body (98% is absorbed, or so they claim). I've been taking it for years and it's never given me a problem and I always take it on an empty stomach, with an orange to increase absorption. It might make a difference for you!

nymph
June 10th, 2005, 11:35 AM
What I don't understand is that on one hand you (vegetarians) state "so i dont live like you, does it matter....", and on another hand calling "meat is murder", hence implying that meat lover are in fact murderers.

Does anybody else see the irony of double standard in this? :rolleyes:

nymph
June 10th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Crazy Hippie: Believe it or not I actually understand where you are coming from, it's like me trying to convince someone to spay/neuter their pet. I think the key word here is *respect*. Over-zealousness sometimes causes the exact opposite reaction that you would want to achieve.

Life is a learning journey, and part of the learning process is to discover other ideas. I am much more accepting than I was 10 years ago, the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

mrjohndoe
June 10th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Whew!! What a lot of interesting opinions. One thing is for certain, that definitely this board is filled with a large volume of intelligent people. Wouldn't it be something if most people (aka the powers that be) could sit down and have intense meanful conversations like this!

Hippie, I have a great deal of respect for you or anyone who sticks by their morals/principles. Unfortunately, I've known unhealthy people from both sides of the fence *so to speak*.

The one thing I can say with incertainty is the further we are away from the food chain the unhealthier it is for everyone - vegetarian, vegan, omnivore, carnivor.

mrjohndoe
June 10th, 2005, 12:34 PM
Please, please, please don't eat pork, bacon or pig products that are not labelled free-range (which is most pork products). If a pig has to die for you - at least let her have a happy life!

FYI. Maybe you should use caution here as well. The term "Free Range" has been somewhat misinterpreted and is often abused as there seems to be no strict scrutiny under the label. I know of large "corporate farms" who in essence qualify and use these labels; however, pigs are kept in pens outside with same and sometimes less space than modern pig barns. Think of large scale cattle lots! Look for the term "humane free range".

Schwinn
June 10th, 2005, 01:39 PM
Well, I apologize if I came off a little sensitive. As for the scientific studies I'm referring to, no, I do not have them at hand. I'm talking from 13 years as bodybuilding fan, and studying weightlifting and nutrition as a result of that. I've read studies that talk about meat as an important part of a healthy lifestyle, as well as reports promoting vegetariansim. My whole point was that I'm not a meat eater trying to justify it rather than just saying I do it because I like it. I looked at several different diets, and considered vegetarianism as well. The conclusion I came to was that eating meat is part of a healthy diet. Now, if you want to argue how the hormones and such in most supermarket meat is making the meat unhealthy, that's another issue. As for saying that vegetarians are much healthier than non-vegetarians because they don't eat meat, is a blanket statement based on incomplete facts. It only makes sense that the average vegetarian is healthier. They've already made the decision to become healthier by means which in thier mind will achieve that. The average meat-eater couldn't care less. So while the average vegetarian is probably very aware of what they are eating and how often, the average meat eater is stuffing thier faces with potatoe chips while watching the big game. That's also why there is an obesity epidemic in North America, not because they eat meat. People are obese because of how much food and fat they eat, and how little exercise they get. I have read the studies, that's how I know. My point about the supplements was that in order to give the body the building blocks required for sports requiring advance musculature, the body's natural reaction to the stress of consistant resistance, a very large amount of supplementation is required if one eschews meat. If you know of someone who is able to grow without it and is vegetarian, I can give you the names of several NPC atheletes who would love to talk to them. The fact that you suggest that you have plenty of energy without meat would suggest to me that you don't know a lot about nutrition and supplementation. Protein does not give you energy. As a matter of fact, athlete's on low-carb high protein diets (such as when in the "cutting" phase prior to competition) are extremely lethargic. Protein is the building block for strength and muscle size, not energy. That's why energy bars usually contain little protein. It weighs you down. I was using this as arguments as to whether it is natural to eat meat. In my mind, if it was not natural, then the body would respond the way it was meant to, without any supplementation required.

I've seen the studies. Obesity and heart disease is caused by too much McDonald's and sitting on your butt, not meat. Oh, and heritage and genetics. Is it caused by some of the hormones fed to cattle? Perhaps, but that is still a theory.

I respect someone who becomes a vegetarian for moral reasons, and understand it. Someone who does it because they feel it is healthier, that is debatable. Even the scientific community doesn't agree on that (otherwise I'd expect most nutritionists would be vegetarians). And whenever I hear a vegetarian tell me that I'm lying that I do it for health reasons, I have to assume that they aren't completly educated about both sides. It always makes me laugh because whenever someone tries to debate with, "You're lying!" it usually means they either are grasping at straws, don't know enough about BOTH sides of the issue to discuss intelligently, or are just to close minded to listen to anything else.

mrjohndoe
June 10th, 2005, 01:53 PM
I'm talking from 13 years as bodybuilding fan, and studying weightlifting and nutrition as a result of that. I've read studies that talk about meat as an important part of a healthy lifestyle, as well as reports promoting vegetariansim.


Great a fellow bodybuilding aficionado. I've read many a study just as you said. In fact in "Ultimate Bodybuilding" by Joe Weider he went vegetarian for a year and found it difficult to make gains. However, Bob Paris seems to have achieved a well sculpted figure as a lacto-vegetarian. But, I've yet to see a full fledged vegan body builder. Then again over the last few years I'm out of the loop.

Vas
June 10th, 2005, 02:19 PM
QUOTE=Schwinn] I respect someone who becomes a vegetarian for moral reasons, and understand it. Someone who does it because they feel it is healthier, that is debatable.


I think most of vegetarians here debate for moral issues. :)

Schwinn
June 10th, 2005, 02:34 PM
How about vegetarians who aren't vegan? I've always wondered about that. I know the joke goes that "fish are ugly, so it's okay", but what is the reason behind it? I've always wondered about that.

Schwinn
June 10th, 2005, 03:03 PM
It looks like the cowpocalypse has already started...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050609/od_afp/nigeriacrimeanimalscowoffbeat_050609125436;_ylt=Ai jYawTQjz7.2AdN3fKCn9is0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2YnFncG91BH NlYwNvZA--

Cactus Flower
June 10th, 2005, 03:14 PM
LOL Schwinn, you've GOT to stop with the "cowpocalypse" thing! Every time I read that, I envision a cow with Marlon Brando's voice..."The horror....the horror...." ala Apocalypse Now.

It's hurting my head, I swear!

Schwinn
June 10th, 2005, 04:08 PM
That's nothing. Once the cowpocalypse is over, it'll be a MOO world order!

Cactus Flower
June 10th, 2005, 04:20 PM
(.....a collective groan escapes the audience.....)


Mercy, Schwinn. Please. Show us some mercy.
:p


Oh, and apologies to the OP for the hijack!

Lise
June 10th, 2005, 04:42 PM
I've been a vegetarian for five years.I don't usually bother to explain my beliefs,because many people just don't comprehend why it is (in my opinion)wrong to consume another living being.I agree completely with Melanie and Crazy Hippie.In the past animals were treated with unbelievable cruelty because people didn't think they could feel pain,now as our understanding of animals develops we are beginning to understand some of thier emotions,I think as our understanding of the other beings we share our planet with deepens it will become less acceptable to eat them, at least I hope so.We have all kinds of furry feathered scaly etc here and I could no more eat one of our chickens than anybody else here.

melanie
June 10th, 2005, 11:13 PM
quote' What I don't understand is that on one hand you (vegetarians) state "so i dont live like you, does it matter....", and on another hand calling "meat is murder", hence implying that meat lover are in fact murderers'.

i said both of those things, yes i truly dont believe its worth getting angry with each otehr or starting wars over our differences, i dont live like you, so does it really matter so much to the extent that we would get angry, that is what i meant there, we will never ever agree on this issue, after many many years of being a vegetarian i have very much accepted that, and that is what i meant, its not something to get angry over, the world has meat eaters just like it has others...

BUT yes i truly believe 'meat is murder' and to eat flesh is very wrong, and thatis my opinion and always has been..... that does not mean i will not love another human because they eat meat, my husband eats meat often, i dont hate him for it, i jsut dont have to like it.... what i think is morally wrong, you may not, and what you think morally wrong i may not, horses for courses and all that i suppose...but i will still accept others with different beliefs in my life,,,,i just dont have to approve, that is what makes us individuals and the world spin round....

and you guys all know how much i love my dog, well i have loved my chickens jsut the same and lambs and cows...so yes it is upsetting for me to see ppl eat meat, and see animals in the meat industry, i see my friends, my loved ones, my companions.....surely that is enough to justify why i if anyone can get so fiesty about this issue sometimes, you have passion for your issues, i have passion for mine....but your still all my friends :p :grouphug: :grouphug:

LL1
June 11th, 2005, 12:21 AM
There's several kinds of vegetarian diets,and some do not include fish or any animal.

melanie
June 11th, 2005, 04:17 AM
I DONT BELIEVE ANYONE WHO EATS FLESH of any sort fish or mammal, is a vegetarian, its not possible and is jsut a cop out in my books, yoru either a real vegetarain or vegan or your not at all, no real grey shades, eat flesh or not, fish feel pain too, several recent experiments have proven this, see new scientist 2004 around july i think for the write up....so your not a vego if you eat flesh.....

LL1
June 11th, 2005, 11:03 AM
Well that is your opinion.I don't flesh either but I won't call it a cop out for those who do.Vegans could say that about vegetarians.

For Schwinn here are some definitions explaining differences:

Ovo-Lacto Vegetarian: same as VEGAN, but also eats eggs and milk products. This is the most 'popular' form of Vegetarianism.

Lacto Vegetarian: Same as VEGAN, but also eats milk products.

Pseudo-Vegetarian: Claims to be vegetarian, but isn't. Often used by VEGETARIANS to describe SEMI-VEGETARIANs, and PESCETARIANs.

Pescetarian: Similar to VEGETARIAN, but also consumes fish. (often is a person avoiding factory-farming techniques...) See also PSEUDO-VEGETARIAN.

Fruitarian: Same as VEGAN, but only eats foods that don't kill the plant (apples can be picked without killing plant, carrots cannot).

http://www.ivu.org/faq/definitions.html

Cactus Flower
June 11th, 2005, 02:47 PM
I posted this on a thread ages ago. Just thought I'd repost here, as it seems relevant:

"Here is the list that Sneaky linked to. I added the text above the list because I sent it out as an email to a few of my friends that are really into this sort of thing:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you really a vegetarian? Or a vegan (one who uses NO animal products whatsoever...eggs/milk/meat/leather/fats etc.)?
You might be surprised to find out what some of those indecipherable ingredients listed on food labels are, even if the product seems to be animal-free. In this day and age, it would be a difficult feat, indeed, to avoid using any part of an animal in our daily lives:
__________________________________________________ ____________

Hidden Animal Ingredients

Albumin - The protein component of egg whites. Albumin is also found in animal blood, milk, plants, and seeds. - Used to thicken or add texture to processed foods.

Anchovies - Small, silvery fish of herring family.- Used in Worcestershire sauce, Caesar salad dressing, pizza topping, Greek salads.

Carmine (carmine, cochineal, or carminic acid) - Red coloring made from a ground-up insect.- Used in bottled juices, colored pasta, some candies, frozen pops, "natural" cosmetics.

Calcium stearate - Mineral typically derived from cows or hogs - Used in garlic salt, vanilla, meat tenderizers, salad-dressing mixes.

Capric acid (decanoic acid) - Animal fats - Added to ice cream, candy, baked goods, chewing gum, liquor and often not specified on ingredients lists.

Casein (caseinate) - A milk protein. It coagulates with the addition of rennin (see rennin below) and is the foundation of cheese.- An additive in dairy products such as cheese, cream cheese, cottage cheese, and sour cream. Also used in adhesives, paints, and plastics.

Clarifying agent - Derived from any number of animal sources.- Used to filter wine, vinegar, beer, fruit juice, soft drinks.

Gelatin - Protein from bones, cartilage, tendons, and skin of animals, Much of the commercial gelatin is a by-product of pig skin. - Used in marshmallows, yogurt, frosted cereals, gelatin-containing desserts (Jello), molded salads.

Glucose (dextrose) -Fruits or animal tissues and fluids.- Used in baked goods, soft drinks, candies, frosting.

Glycerides (mono-, di-, and triglycerides) - Glycerol from animal fats or plants. - Used in processed foods, cosmetics, perfumes, lotions, inks, glues, automobile antifreeze. Used as emulsifier.

Isinglass Gelatin - from air bladder of sturgeon and other freshwater fish.- Used to clarify alcoholic beverages and in some jellied desserts. Rarely used now.

Lactic acid - Acid formed by bacteria acting on the milk sugar lactose. Imparts a tart flavor.- Used in cheese, yogurt, pickles, olives, sauerkraut, candy, frozen desserts, chewing gum, fruit preserves, dyeing and textile printing.

Lactose (saccharum lactin) - D-lactose Milk sugar - Culture medium for souring milk and in processed foods such as baby formulas, candies and other sweets, medicinal diuretics, and laxatives.

Lactylic stearate - Salt of stearic acid (see stearic acid below).- Used as a dough conditioner.

Lanolin -Waxy fat from sheep's wool.- Used in chewing gum, ointments, cosmetics, waterproof coatings.

Lard - Rendered and clarified pork fat. Often fat from abdomens of pigs or the fat around the animal's kidneys- Used in baked goods.

Lecithin Phospholipids - From animal tissues, plants, lentils, and egg yolks, used to preserve, emulsify, and moisturize food. - Used in cereal, candy, chocolate, baked goods, margarine, vegetable oil sprays, cosmetics, and ink.

Lutein - Deep yellow coloring from marigolds or egg yolks.- Used in commercial food coloring.

Myristic acid (tetradecanoic acid) - Animal fats.- Used in chocolate, ice cream, candy, jelled desserts, baked goods.

Natural flavorings - Unspecified, - Could be from meat or other animal products Processed and packaged foods.

Oleic acid (oleinic acid) - Animal tallow (see tallow below) - Used in synthetic butter, cheese, vegetable fats and oils, spice flavoring for baked goods, candy, ice cream, beverages, condiments, soaps, cosmetics.

Palmatic acid - Animal or vegetable fats - Used in baked goods, butter and cheese flavoring.

Pancreatin (pancreatic extract) - Cows or hogs- Used in digestive aids.

Pepsin- Enzyme from pigs' stomachs - With rennet to make cheese.

Propolis Resinous- cement collected by bees - Food supplement and ingredient in "natural" toothpaste.

Rennin (Rennet) -A coagulating enzyme obtained from a young animal's stomach, usually a calf's stomach - Rennin is used to curdle milk in foods such as cheese and junket (a soft pudding like dessert).

Royal jelly- Substance produced by glands of bees - Used in "Natural foods" and nutrient supplements.

Sodium stearoyl lactylate- May be derived from cows, hogs, animal milk, or vegetable-mineral sources.- Used in cake, pudding, or pancake mixes, baked goods, margarine.

Stearic acid (octadecenoic acid)- Tallow, other animal fats and oils- Used in vanilla flavoring, chewing gum, baked goods, beverages, candy, soaps, ointments, candles, cosmetics, suppositories and pill coatings.

Suet- Hard white fat around kidneys and loins of animals - Used in margarine, mincemeat, pastries, bird feed, tallow.

Tallow- Solid fat of sheep and cattle separated from the membranous tissues- Used in waxed paper, margarine, soaps, crayons, candles, rubber, cosmetics.

Vitamin A (A1, retinol) - Vitamin obtained from vegetables, egg yolks, or fish liver oil.- Used in vitamin supplements, fortification of foods, "natural" cosmetics.

Vitamin B12 - Vitamin produced by microorganisms and found in all animal products; synthetic form (cyanocobalamin or cobalamin on labels) is vegan- Used in supplements or fortified foods.

Vitamin D (D1, D2, D3) - D1 is produced by humans upon exposure to sunlight; D2 (ergocalciferol) is made from plants or yeast, D3 (cholecalciferol) comes from fish liver oils or lanolin Supplements or fortified foods.

Whey- Watery liquid that separates from the solids (curds) of milks in cheese-making.- Used in crackers, breads, cakes, processed foods in cheese-making.

Source: The Complete Idiot's Guide to Being Vegetarian by Suzanne Havala, M.S., R.D., F.A.D.A., Food Lover's Companion by Sharon Tyler Herbst, The Vegan Sourcebook by Joanne Stepaniak, M.S.Ed.
__________________________________________________ ______________

One of my (former vegetarian) friends wrote back with a point that I thought was interesting. He said: "... then I realized all organisms on this earth live off other organisms, so itís the circle of life "

What do you all think of that?
That point really struck me, that all organisms live off of other organisms.

He's a chemist, by the way, and explained that many of the ingredients on that list can be produced chemically, in a labratory, but wonders if companies pay the extra cost it takes to do so."

melanie
June 11th, 2005, 06:31 PM
l11, you have jsut agreed with me from what i can tell, i said no true vego if you eat flesh, you ahve listed lacto, ovo which are fine, they dont consume flesh, i am a lacto myself, and you ahve given very distinct names to those psuedos who eat flesh , you said their not vegos your self-
QUOTE
Pseudo-Vegetarian: Claims to be vegetarian, but isn't. Often used by VEGETARIANS to describe SEMI-VEGETARIANs, and PESCETARIANs.

Pescetarian: Similar to VEGETARIAN, but also consumes fish. (often is a person avoiding factory-farming techniques...) See also PSEUDO-VEGETARIAN.

neither of these is strictly vegetarian from your own definitions, 'claims' to be and 'similar' to vego are not vego... as you very well said.....

case closed your honor :D

LL1
June 12th, 2005, 12:52 PM
Sorry!Posted the wrong definition. :sorry: I have friends who follow this diet,and I dont agree it is a cop out.Not a diet for me,but also not for me to judge.

Pescetarians
Pescetarians eat a vegetarian diet but also consume fish. Pescetarians may avoid red meat and poultry because they do not want to support factory farming or other inhumane methods of raising animals. For many people making the transition to vegetarianism, pescetarianism is a stage along the way to an entirely meatless diet.

Crazy Hippie
June 12th, 2005, 01:20 PM
I think that sometimes people move through different stages of being a vegetarian. For me, I stopped eating red meat over 10 years ago, when I was just a kid. Then I stopped eating chicken a few years after that, and then fish. I think with many people it's a process, sort of cutting out one thing from the diet and then another, and learning that there are other (delicious!) foods to be eaten in place of what you are eliminating. And no, I don't think anyone is a true vegetarian either if they eat any kind of flesh. This has been a really interesting thread, by the way!

Schwinn
June 13th, 2005, 11:21 AM
So someone who only eats fish may be doing so not because they think that eating flesh is amoral, but because they don't agree with how they feel most farm animals are raised and cared for? Interesting. I'm just trying to understand. I've asked my sister, but I think she's been getting a lot of flack from other family members and just brushes off the question.

Crazy Hippie
June 13th, 2005, 12:19 PM
I guess someone who eats fish but not "meat" b/c of the way animals are treated probably doesn't understand that fish feel pain too, and suffocation from being out of water, and I've read that their bellies and eyes pop out under the pressure of the other fish on top of them (when they're brought in from the water). Schwinn is that kinda what you were asking?

I read something from the Humane Society about meat animals, which is relevant to the original post...so I thought I'd type it out here since it's not from peta:

"As Canadian consumers, each one of us has the ability to make a difference in the lives of farm animals in this country. Did you know...
-that factory farming has resulted in appalling living conditions for 90% of the 650 million animals killed for food each year in Canada?
-that the overwhelming majority of mother pigs are kept continuously pregnant and confined in metal stalls that are so small they cannot turn around?
-that up to seven laying hens are kept in a cage the size of a microwave oven?
-that farm animals are fed a steady diet of antibiotics, hormones and steroids?
-that the tails, beaks, horns and toes of farm animals are amputated, that their teeth are cut, and that they are hot-branded and castrated all without anaesthetic?"

The article was basically saying, approach your grocery store manager or write a letter and ask that they purchase from more humane suppliers (ex. "certified organic", "humane certified", "free range", "free run") for meat and eggs.

I was kinda surprised since I've never been sent info from the humane society before on farm animals.

Crazy Hippie
June 13th, 2005, 12:30 PM
Something else I found that I think is relevant here:

Five Freedoms Philosphy

Every animal deserves...
-Freedom from hunger
-Freedom from discomfort
-Freedom from pain, injury and disease
-Freedom from fear and distress
-Freedom to express normal behaviour

Cactus Flower
June 13th, 2005, 12:41 PM
This may be a silly question, but.....how do chickens eat with their beaks cut down/off ?

Schwinn
June 13th, 2005, 02:10 PM
I was just trying to interpret what someone else had said, and I think what I was understanding was that vegetarians who eat fish do so because they don't believe that the fish live in the same conditions as livestock. The running joke with vegetarians who eat fish has always been, "Because it's ugly?". But I've never had anyone give me an answer as to why, to them, fish was okay while livestock was verbotten. It has always puzzled me.

melanie
June 13th, 2005, 05:42 PM
as i mentioned above fish do feel real pain. in recent experiments fish had acid injected into the ir lips and were assessed for pain raection, each fish went crazy in pain when the acid was injected, so when your hook goes in it does definatly feel pain....as i said b4, eating fish is a cop out in my books, all animals suffer does not matter...

i am only vegetarian simply for the moral factor of eating flesh....

i have never met a person who clearly stated its because of the industry, then i would wonder what they do to change it other than not eating meat....
and i wonder if they would go aback to it if it was done humanely??

some ppl are jsut very very very confused and illinformed.....poor buggers

Crazy Hippie
June 13th, 2005, 11:02 PM
There's no way I'd eat meat even if it was done "humanely". Even as a little kid it bothered me so much. Aside from knowing I was eating animals, it grossed me out! Those veins you see in chicken..oh yuck. One time I was at a family Christmas thing and there was a roast of some sort on the table, and when I walked by it I could see this big tube thing coming from it (an artery?). I almost :yuck: big time. And then they ask ME why I don't eat meat?

About the beaks, I was told by a woman who has a rescue farm that they cut the ends off the beaks when the chickens are babies, so they won't be able to peck each other. This woman's farm is amazing, she even has 2 pigs that fell off a slaughter truck (lucky little piggies!) and they are soooo sweet! They have 3 rescued pot bellies too, they wag their little tails just like dogs when you talk to them. So cute!

Cactus Flower
June 14th, 2005, 01:11 AM
So.....how do they eat with the ends of their beaks cut off?

Prin
June 14th, 2005, 02:11 AM
I'm coming in a bit late but....

Cyberkitten: As long as I live, I hope never again to see anyone endure what my cousin did - Variant CJD (unlike its rare naturally occuring cousin) attacks adults in their prime and essentially turns their brains to mush. I saw a once vibrant woman - literally the life of the party - initially have difficulty walking and with some neurological functions. In the end, she recognized no one, was scared all the time (there is some degree of paranoia with the illness), was in pain in spite of the meds and her dignity had been robbed of her! The family was not permitted to bury her in a cemetery so even in death, she was permitted no dignity. So - I will never be eating beef again! They actually have found no links between mad cow and CJD yet. They have the same mechanisms, but so far it is unlikely that the affected humans aquired it from cows. It actually originated by humans eating monkey brains, not cow brains. The fact that they don't know how you get it or if it's interspecies is why they scare people so much about it.

Nymph: I've heard that the most strict vegetarians don't even eat "living vegetables", for example, only when an apple falls from the tree and "chose to die" that they'd eat it. But then the apple doesn't fulfill it's reproductive destiny either... Fruits are not really dead, they're bait to provide the seeds with enzymes from digestive systems of certain beasties. They're the ovaries.

Crazy Hippie: Vegetables do not have a central nervous system...they do not feel pain. I don't think you'll find a vegetarian out there who believes they do! Tell that to my plant physiology prof. Apparently, studies have shown that when you pull a live branch off a tree, there is an equivalent physiological response to ripping an arm off a person.
And:
And I'm sorry I don't respect your decision to be a "meat lover". I don't understand why people who love animals see no harm in eating their flesh. I agree with Melanie: meat is murder.

Schwinn, I wasn't attacking you for eating meat and I wasn't trying to be "arrogant". You attack meat eaters first then you apologize for prior attacks? LOL.

CF: So.....how do they eat with the ends of their beaks cut off? Feeding tubes?

My brother and his "conjoint" are hard-core vegans. Only organic veggies, nothing meaty or meat related at all. They've been doing it for I guess around 6 years now. My bro is 5'11" and 140 lbs, and his girly is 5'4 and 84lbs. Bones. The veggie advocates here might say they are doing it wrong or something, but they aren't. They are very structured and very knowledgeable but they just can't put a pound on. They both have very physical jobs (building sets for movies), and neither has the muscle mass to be fully capable in their work.

I'm 5'6" and I have far more muscle mass than either, and I have FAR bigger bones than them. Am I healthier? There are so many factors there. For instance, my mother smoked while preggo with me, not with my bro. How do you know if the health issues that differ between us are not primarily caused by that?

I understand the idea behind veganism, but I would rather get my iron and my protein (yes I said protein, too) from a food source and not a supplement. I don't want kidney stones and the like because I have to take a pill.

How many vegans have lived incredibly long lives? Are there any from the previous generation? How do we know what the long term effects are?

Personally, I believe health is 70% exercise and 30% diet. You can't be 100% without one or the other, but exercise can make up for a lot of diet choices.

As for anthropology, isn't the appendix a remnant of the digestive system for eating raw meat? And the teeth, I think we fall nicely between herbivore teeth and carnivore teeth. We have bigger canines than herbies, and bigger incisors than carnies. I believe we've been omnivores all along. Meat was hard to find, so we ate veggies, but if meat was available, we ate it. Nobody can deny that meat is more dense than most veggies. It's the pyramid- bottom row is a lot of quantity, a bit of value, second row has less quantity, higher density value, etc. It's the whole basis of Atkins- eating protein/fatty based foods is more fulfilling so you eat less.

Nuff said.

melanie
June 14th, 2005, 02:30 AM
i was jsut thinking about that other pole on what are you and how most ppl ehre eat meat.... and most ppl here come form westernised countries with seriously high incedence of obesity and heart disease, and yet in countries where meat is not eaten or eaten as much as westerners they have a lower incedence of both of these diseases......food for thought.....

also it has been proven that cutting your caloric intake actually adds at least 5 years to your life....

protien, yummy yummy beans and thanks mexicans is all i have to say on that one.....

and as a vegetarian, i am a normal weight now, but have been borderline obese even with a vegetarian diet, hey no one ever said indian cuisine was low fat........so being vego does not mean i am anorexic or malnutritioned, infact at times the complete oposite.........any vegan or vego that is too thin and malnutritioned raellyneed to go and see a dietician and doctor....

organic broccoli/white sauce pie anyone (aussie style with pastry on top and bottom), its my favourite yuuuuuummmmmm...... :D :D

Schwinn
June 14th, 2005, 10:30 AM
i was jsut thinking about that other pole on what are you and how most ppl ehre eat meat.... and most ppl here come form westernised countries with seriously high incedence of obesity and heart disease, and yet in countries where meat is not eaten or eaten as much as westerners they have a lower incedence of both of these diseases......food for thought.....

Again, this is a bit of a misnomer, though. It isn't the meat that is causing the obesity and heart disease, it's the amount of intake and type of foods. The average westerner isn't going to consider what they put in thier mouth, while the average vegetarian is. In order to get a fair comparison, you'd have to compare health conscious meat eaters to health concious vegetarians. Even if you take the least health concious of the two, you're going to find one person gorging on hamburgers at McDonald's (full of fat, both in the low-grade meat, and in the condiments) and the other gorging on salads (not much fat in there). Too much of anything will kill you. But the connection solely between meat and heart disease is non-casal. There are plenty of countries that eat meat that don't have nearly the rate of obeisity or heart disease of North America (most of the British Isles, France, Germany)

also it has been proven that cutting your caloric intake actually adds at least 5 years to your life....

This is true, meat or otherwise...

and as a vegetarian, i am a normal weight now, but have been borderline obese even with a vegetarian diet, hey no one ever said indian cuisine was low fat........so being vego does not mean i am anorexic or malnutritioned, infact at times the complete oposite.........any vegan or vego that is too thin and malnutritioned raellyneed to go and see a dietician and doctor....



Again, too much of anything will make you fat. I think what Prin was referring to was increasing muscle mass. It sounds like her relatives are eating a clean diet, and not looking to just gain weight, but to gain muscle as well. This is something that, in my experience, many vegans have difficulty with.

Crazy Hippie
June 14th, 2005, 02:39 PM
PRIN:
And I'm sorry I don't respect your decision to be a "meat lover". I don't understand why people who love animals see no harm in eating their flesh. I agree with Melanie: meat is murder.

Schwinn, I wasn't attacking you for eating meat and I wasn't trying to be "arrogant".

You attack meat eaters first then you apologize for prior attacks? LOL.
Ok, I will say it again. I wasn't "attacking" anyone, and where exactly do you see an apology? I said I don't respect the decision. That doesn't mean I don't respect people who eat meat...most of my family does, and my b/f on occasion, and I have a lot of respect for these people. But, to single out their decision to eat meat and ask if I respect this, no, I don't. I don't see the difference between domesticated "pet" animals, and farm or "meat" animals...they're all equal in my books.

I understand the idea behind veganism, but I would rather get my iron and my protein (yes I said protein, too) from a food source and not a supplement. I don't want kidney stones and the like because I have to take a pill.

Well that goes both ways...if you eat too much protein, you put yourself at risk for kidney damage and osteoporosis. And still no one seems to care about the drugs/hormones that are in their meat, or the saturated fat and cholesterol in animal products, or the fact that meat is hard on the digestive system because it's hard to break down and contains no fiber.
And you can still get all the protein/iron/whatever you need from foods that are not dead animals, and just because you eat meat does not mean you are getting these any better either. I know a meat-eater that was recently (surprise!) put on B12 shots and iron supps. So is she healthier than me b/c she eats meat? I highly doubt it.

I think the bottom line is, that yes many vegetarians give up meat for the moral reasons behind it, but some do it because they believe there are health benefits as well. A little off topic here, but my own grandma gave up meat when I was a kid because she had cancer, and decided to try a macrobiotic diet which didn't allow her to eat any animal products. She had no faith in the diet to begin with, but as she says, when you are dying you become desperate. Btw, if you know someone with cancer, it (macrobiotics) might be worth checking out..it worked for her.

Lise
June 14th, 2005, 04:33 PM
Chickens that have been debeaked seem to eat the same as with beaks.They only cut off half the beak.In our flock we have four who were debeaked were they came from and everyone else has thier beaks.It is not necessary to debeak if they have enough room and stimulation in thier lives.We have our big reds down to little bantams and everone gets along with no feather picking or bullying.We also have some guinea fowl in with our gang.Generally I think animals resort to injuring themselves or becoming overly agressive when they are under incredibly stressful abnormal situations like many farms.

Cactus Flower
June 14th, 2005, 07:47 PM
THANK YOU, Lise! I was really perplexed about that.

Crazy Hippie
June 14th, 2005, 10:47 PM
Hey I forgot to mention, in case anyone else might be interested in trying this, that you can buy "veggie" meat from the grocery store which has the same texture/colour (and sometimes flavour, depending on the brand) as meat. I wish you could all taste my mom's veggie chile or spag sauce with meatless ground beef lol..you'd swear it had meat in it! ANd it's high in vitamins, iron, protein...my b/f is not veg but he actually prefers the chile this way..cuts down on fat too and adds fiber. The brand I use is called Yves, in case you wanna try it! ;)

Crazy Hippie
June 14th, 2005, 10:50 PM
sorry cactus flower, I meant to address your question twice and I forgot :)

Cactus Flower
June 18th, 2005, 03:23 AM
That's ok, Crazy Hippie. No worries :) .

I'm searching for Yves in my area, but no luck. Sounds delicious! I wonder how you can get your local grocer to order such a thing?

moontamara
June 18th, 2005, 03:37 AM
Nymph, I wasn't being aggressive. And I'm sorry I don't respect your decision to be a "meat lover". I don't understand why people who love animals see no harm in eating their flesh. I agree with Melanie: meat is murder.

I'm kind of on the fence on this debate -- but I don't agree with the "meat is murder" idea. Do your pets eat meat? Do you feed your pets meat? Probably yes, because you love your pets and don't want their health to suffer. But are you not also contributing to the meat industry then? Your response may be, "well, that's different...." and you're right -- it is different, but it isn't that different.

I don't like hearing issues like this being painted as if they are black and white -- there are very few things in the world that are.

Cactus Flower
June 18th, 2005, 04:16 AM
Do your pets eat meat? Do you feed your pets meat? Probably yes, because you love your pets and don't want their health to suffer. But are you not also contributing to the meat industry then?

WOW, Moon- you bring up a very interesting point! And one that I have not heard before.

Crazy Hippie
June 18th, 2005, 01:54 PM
lol just when I thought the topic had been laid to rest...actually I do feed my cats a vegan cat food and they love it...only one pet store where I live that sells it, unless you order online...and my rabbit..well..pellets and lettuce and carrots
My family has a dog too, and no she doesn't eat vegan, but then half the people in my house don't either and I don't buy her food, they do. :)

Cactus Flower..they don't sell Yves where you live? That's too bad, you can make tacos, spag sauce, chile, sloppy joes, etc with their veggie ground beef! yum! I discovered it about 8 yrs ago and it was bliss ever since, hehe. Schneiders also makes REALLY good veggie products now but they've just started selling them here this past year or so (I think). They make these thick veggie "burgers" too that taste just like the ones your momma makes lol. Wish my brothers would try them...stubborn guys...one of these days they will get some unsuspected soy between those hamburger buns...mwahahahaha...see if they even notice...

Cactus Flower
June 18th, 2005, 02:03 PM
You're killing me, Crazy Hippie- my mouth is watering BIG TIME.

I am going shopping tomorrow, and I'll ask the manager if maybe I can special order it. The few meat substitutes that I've tried tasted pretty much like sawdust to me, so I'm really anxious to try this.

I do eat some meat, but not much. I am always open to a good meat substitute, as I have a medical condition that dictates I'm not supposed to eat meat at ALL (among other things, long story). My body would thank me if I found a good substitute.

MegShawnMom
June 19th, 2005, 12:44 PM
Cattle,hogs leave a pretty content life up to the last 2 daysmthen its major stress till death.Fouls/birds are not so lucky,with a 55 day life cycle theres not much to be happy about.
There are subsiutes for the protein we miss from not eating meat.
You can go to a butcher and order a free range bird,no chemicals/open space and a lot healthier to get your protein if you need to.
There are and always be cases of abuse in slaugher houses.PETA tends to go overboard and Pamala doesn't help their cause much.
Can't really go wrong with fish(as long as chemicals within range)
Our dogs/cats do need the meat and byproducts.Remember that they will eat what we would not be allowed to consume.Do your research and you would see where their meat comes from,I'am not going to get into that one.

Cactus Flower
June 19th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Our dogs/cats do need the meat and byproducts

Actually, my dog is a vegetarian, and the vet says that she is extremely healthy. She is allergic to meat protein, so she is on a vegetarian dog food.

moontamara
June 19th, 2005, 07:57 PM
Actually, my dog is a vegetarian, and the vet says that she is extremely healthy. She is allergic to meat protein, so she is on a vegetarian dog food.


Wow -- what is the main protein source? I understood that dogs were allergic to soy.... is it nuts? Hmm, I have never heard of a vegetarian dog before! That's neat!

Cactus Flower
June 19th, 2005, 09:39 PM
It does list soy flour, and various supplements among the veggie ingredients. She's been doing wonderful on it, and her coat has never looked so good (her skin as well). The brand is "Avo Derm". This one is the vegetarian type, but even their non vegetarian dog foods all are made for dogs with skin problems/sensitivities. They don't add nasty preservatives and common allergens to any of their food.

I can't say enough good about this food! It has saved Raj, big time.

http://www.breeders-choice.com/Dog_Products/avodermdog_veg.html

moontamara
June 20th, 2005, 08:05 PM
That one actually is available in Korea -- although not every type of it, and definitely not the vegetarian type. The only kind I saw didn't have a very good ingredient listing, however -- but I'll check again..... it's good to hear such a glowing endorsement! Food is always an issue with Casey.

Vas
June 20th, 2005, 08:44 PM
Oops, the discussion not done yet! :p :highfive:

Cactus Flower
June 21st, 2005, 01:12 AM
I hear that the same dog food can have different ingredients/quality from country to country. I don't know if that's true of AvoDerm, just a thought.

Sorry for the hijack, Vas.

Prin
June 21st, 2005, 03:10 AM
Wow -- what is the main protein source? I understood that dogs were allergic to soy.... is it nuts? Hmm, I have never heard of a vegetarian dog before! That's neat! Soy can cause gas, which can lead to bloat. That's all I have heard about soy. :)

Crazy Hippie
June 21st, 2005, 04:43 PM
Soy may cause gas when you first introduce it to your diet. But when you do it bit by bit, your system will adjust (for animals too I'd assume) and soon it's just like any other food.
Milk also causes gas/bloat in many ppl (I read that over 80% of population is lactose intolerant and don't realize it...and I'm one of em but I sure realize it...hehe)

nymph
June 24th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Read an article today that the meat producers are expecting US FDA approval of cloned meats. There are about 300 some animals cloned as food supply in the US. :eek: