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What can I do to this backyard breeder?

nymph
June 6th, 2005, 02:48 PM
This girl is shamelessly selling Husky puppies in this Chinese forum I frequent. It's already the 2nd litter in less than a year!

First litter: Oct-3-2004, 5 pups;
Second litter: April-15-2005, 7 pups (estimated)

She lives in Toronto, I only have her phone number (she posted online), which is an unlisted Bell Canada phone number. Is there anyway I can find out where she lives and report her to GTA's animal control or get GTA's humane society involved? Her phone number is 416-661-****.

sammiec
June 6th, 2005, 02:53 PM
From what I saw this person is selling Golden Retriever puppies as well... There are SOOOOO many people that are BYB it's nearly impossible to find an organization that will take the time to act against them. Maybe pretend to be a interested buyer and ask to see the house and facilities that she is peddling these dogs out of. Then you could go to the SPCA if you find that it's dirty and the dogs are not cared for...

Luba
June 6th, 2005, 02:55 PM
There's no law unfortunately against breeding.

BUT if you are concerned call the Humane society and file a complaint...yours may not be the first and they could be more of a 'mill' setup and the H.S would like the information.

nymph
June 6th, 2005, 03:01 PM
Yeah I thought about pretending to be an interested buyer, but that's kinda sneaky, I've never done anything like that before.

I'm going to contact GTA's humane society anyway with the information I have.

It's sickening to know that some 12 Husky pups have been produced in the last 7 months, and they all look gorgeous! Who knows where they are going to end up. I feel so hopeless I just want to scream...

Daniac
June 6th, 2005, 07:02 PM
Why not report her to Revenue Canada? :angel:

Chances are she's not paying income tax on her "income" from selling dogs.

nymph
June 7th, 2005, 08:37 AM
Only if I could find her address. I called the number she posted online, it was a dead number. That's what those backyard breeders are: gutless, shameless, money-thirst @sses!

Schwinn
June 7th, 2005, 09:25 AM
Just a quick question about policy...I noticed the number was edited due to be printed without permission. But if it was published in a public forum as advertising, does that not give implied permision? Just curious.

Sorry, not trying to thread jack.

goldenblaze
June 7th, 2005, 09:49 AM
Why not report her to Revenue Canada? :angel:

Chances are she's not paying income tax on her "income" from selling dogs.

Good idea but unless she is making over $30.000 per year selling dog she doesn't need to be listed as a business in Ontario. :(

Trinitie
June 7th, 2005, 09:59 AM
Just a quick question about policy...I noticed the number was edited due to be printed without permission. But if it was published in a public forum as advertising, does that not give implied permision? Just curious.

Sorry, not trying to thread jack.It depends on the context of the post. In this case, the owner of the phone number is a "suspected" BYB. In a case like that, without the owner's permission to post the number, we are held responsible for providing bad publicity about that person. It makes us open to possible lawsuits. If the owner of the number is the OP of the post that lists the number, then it would be ok.

If the number is posted as part of a good thread, advertising a kennel or person who is doing good for the animal community, I doubt they would have a problem with their number plastered over the WWW, meaning, no lawsuits.

Just protecting our beloved Pets.ca site.

kandy
June 7th, 2005, 10:12 AM
Have you tried doing a reverse address lookup? There are sites that allow you to enter the phone number, and it will tell you what address that number is at. If that doesn't work, I would go the sneaky route and pretend to be a buyer to get an address. At least that way, you've got concrete information to give the SPCA if the dogs are not cared for.

Schwinn
June 7th, 2005, 10:19 AM
It depends on the context of the post. In this case, the owner of the phone number is a "suspected" BYB. In a case like that, without the owner's permission to post the number, we are held responsible for providing bad publicity about that person. It makes us open to possible lawsuits. If the owner of the number is the OP of the post that lists the number, then it would be ok.

If the number is posted as part of a good thread, advertising a kennel or person who is doing good for the animal community, I doubt they would have a problem with their number plastered over the WWW, meaning, no lawsuits.

Just protecting our beloved Pets.ca site.

Makes sense to me. Thanks for clarifying!

Daniac
June 7th, 2005, 11:12 AM
Good idea but unless she is making over $30.000 per year selling dog she doesn't need to be listed as a business in Ontario. :(

I just got off the phone with a very helpful woman at Revenue Canada. If the person is not running their breeding operation as a small business they MUST declare the "income" from selling puppies as Other Income or Self Employed Income on their Personal Tax Return.

I would imagine that most breeders operate as self-employed or small businesses. But how many byb's are actually filing their income from puppies?

The Revenue Canada Narc line is: 1-866-809-6841 :evil: :angel:

nymph
June 7th, 2005, 01:03 PM
Big thanks for everyone's input! The girl selling the pups said her name is Yoyo and she posted her cell phone number in another forum, it's all Chinese, but for those interested, come here: http://www.comefromchina.com/newbbs/showthread.php?s=&forumid=97&threadid=383753

I called her and confronted her, besides some heavy swearings she actually gave me her home address. I'm going to file a complaint against her with the Toronto Humane Society. I've also found out her building management's phone number and will file a complaint with them as well. The Revenue Canada thing sounds like a long shot since I believe she's an internatinal student, but it's worth trying.

Trinitie: Yoyo posted her own number online, I wouldn't want to involve this board in any legal battles for sure.

Trinitie
June 7th, 2005, 01:07 PM
I know you mean well. Posting the link to the thread where SHE posts her own number is the best way to go. That way you're not responsible for her number being spread across the WWW, she is. :highfive:

happycats
June 7th, 2005, 01:19 PM
you say you have her address? go to canada 411 website, and do a reverse address look-up, or a reverse phone look-up.

Revenue Canada takes tax evasion VERY seriously!! so it's worth a try calling them.

nymph
June 7th, 2005, 01:23 PM
I did the reverse search but she lives in an apartment building, the phone number is listed under the building management.

I've got a response back from the Toronto Humane Society, it's rather disappointing, they said that 2 adult dogs are within the limit of the bylaw so that they can't do anyting about it.

She could still have puppies handing around her apartment, wouldn't that consititute some kind of violation? I studied Toronto's bylaw, it didn't mention age of dog to be considered adult. I'm wondering the THS just didn't want to get involved.

Daniac
June 7th, 2005, 01:34 PM
What about contacting her apt. building management company. They might have a rule about the number of dogs allowed in the building or they might have a rule against someone having a breeding operation in an apt. building.

If you can believe it, there is a "breeder" in Toronto that breeds Great Danes that lives in a Metro Toronto Housing Apt. building and is breeding in her apt! :mad:

nymph
June 7th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Will definitely do that! As soon as I get access to make long distance phone calls, my office blocks LD phone calls.

nymph
June 7th, 2005, 02:36 PM
Now she keeps calling my cell phone to harass me, anything I could do to stop this?

GWPsRock
June 7th, 2005, 02:48 PM
Well....it sounds like you did kinda start the harassing against her...so, hopefully, you do understand where she is coming from. You could just not answer your phone when she calls it - or, try to block that number from coming through (not sure if that is possible)

Since she lives in an apartment - a lot of leases state that you can't run a "home business" out of the apartment - that might be one way to get her....

Good luck - I know that you are trying to do the right thing, but, be careful......

nymph
June 7th, 2005, 03:07 PM
Thanks for the heads up. I called her because she said in the forum that she "was waiting for me to call", so I did. I called her once and got her address, that was it. I wouldn't think I was harassing her, oh well even if I was so be it.

She just confirmed:
1st litter: Oct-3-2004
2nd litter: Apr-30-2005

7 months apart, 2 litters for a total of 12 pups!

maddoxies
June 7th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Call Immigration. There are strict rules about how students can earn money. As for Rev Canada, you cannot claim losses from a hobby, but MUST declare income from a hobby.
Good luck and keep up the good fight.

CyberKitten
June 7th, 2005, 06:12 PM
My bf is an immigration lawyer and Goldengirl is correct - breeding animals for profit is not permitted if you are in this country under a student visa. Unless she is enrolled in agriculture and is a rsearch assitant in some program but that has to be non profit. Now if she came in as an entrepeneur, there are other rules. It is probably not wise to assume anything - she may well have come into Canada under vertain guidelines but it is against the law to not follow them to the letter. And the Customs and immigration officers will never know she is doing anything illegal unless they are notifued. They do not have time to check the thousands of students here on temp VISA's. Depending on her situation, they may even just give her a warning but IF she is here on a student VISA, it is against the rules to be in the breeding for profit biz, even if her animals are show quality stars who've won a zillion awards. Tho - if she has one of those, she may have a temp VISA to attend a dog show, lol (not to complicate your life or anything)

nymph
June 8th, 2005, 10:16 AM
I'm waiting on replies from the City of Toronto Animal Services and her condo management. The THS replied back with "unfortunately we can't do anything at this point due to the fact that she only has 2 adult dogs at the present time, which is allowed by city bylaw...bla..bla..bla.." :mad:

I have not yet reported her to Revenue Canada or CIC pending her change of attitude. She said that she has already sold all her puppies, and that she's already made the appointment with her vet to spay mom dog.

This thread has turned out to be quite educational, thanks to all your feedback. I'm hoping that it would at least make those BYBs think twice before breeding.

nymph
June 8th, 2005, 11:39 AM
The girl said that her vet "recommended to breed the mom dog (in fact, all dogs between the age of 2 to 5) 3 times in 2 years, and depending on the age and health of the mom dog, it's perfectly OK to breed her twice a year".

Mom dog has no title, is not a champion, God knows if she's in good health or that her shots are even kept to date. Bear in mind that the girl may be putting words into the vet's mouth to justify her unlissenced breeding, but if this advice indeed came from a vet, I would be completely shocked.

Does this sound like a professional opinion from a vet? Wouldn't it be unethical to recommend a non-licensed breeder to have 3 litters of puppies in 2 years??

Schwinn
June 8th, 2005, 11:42 AM
I have a feeling it was probably more along the lines that the vet recommend "no more than" or that it was "okay to breed" that many times. It's probably like asking your vet if you should put your pet down. They apparently will NOT give you that recommendation, no matter how much they believe it. They probably aren't allowed to comment on BYB either.

nymph
June 8th, 2005, 12:55 PM
Building manager replied basically saying that unless I'm prepared to present the case in court, both as a complainant and witness, they are not going to do squat, just passing the bucket!

I'm so frustrated! It seems that there is no way to stop backyard breedings.

CyberKitten
June 8th, 2005, 02:41 PM
No vet would recommend that - is is likely as Schwinn suggests - she probably asked the vet about breeding and they are not supposed to be judgemental unless of course cruelty and abuse are evident.

nymph
June 9th, 2005, 09:31 AM
Toronto Animal Service agreed to conduct an investigation. A bylaw officer is notified and an investigation is now in process.

d_stanley
June 9th, 2005, 09:48 AM
The girl said that her vet "recommended to breed the mom dog (in fact, all dogs between the age of 2 to 5) 3 times in 2 years, and depending on the age and health of the mom dog, it's perfectly OK to breed her twice a year".

Mom dog has no title, is not a champion, God knows if she's in good health or that her shots are even kept to date. Bear in mind that the girl may be putting words into the vet's mouth to justify her unlissenced breeding, but if this advice indeed came from a vet, I would be completely shocked.

Does this sound like a professional opinion from a vet? Wouldn't it be unethical to recommend a non-licensed breeder to have 3 litters of puppies in 2 years??
according to my vet. your only suppose to breed your bitch every other heat. so if your bitch goes into heat every 6 months then you would have a litter once a year. You should not have 2 litters in 6 months, its unhealty for the dog. Can cause alot of problems especially in huskies. I should know I raise huskies.
_________________________________
:crazy: crazy bout huskies

MegShawnMom
June 10th, 2005, 05:04 PM
She is required by law to have a PST vendor permit regardless of $income.
Get in touch with the office and they will send an agent to have her registered.At least she will have R.C. to deal with. Correct me if I'am wrong, I thought that the $30,000. applies to the GST break point, not the PST.

SnowDancer
June 10th, 2005, 06:46 PM
I would tread very carefully at this point. I know your heart is in the right place, but you are taking this matter to extreme lengths - and the person in question appears to know who you are if I understand your posts correctly. Remember, you have pets yourself - and the first victims of retaliation are children and pets. So be very, very careful.