Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Puppy or Adult dog

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 5th, 2005, 10:40 AM
We have committed to a breed of dog now,English Cocker Spaniel and thought an adult would be easier than a puppy until I asked a breeder about housebreaking (sorry to keep bringing the subject up) I said as I just started a fulltime job I thought the time constraints of housebreaking lack of sleep etc may be too much. She said it wasn't as hard as I am anticipating and in most cases a pup will go through the night if you stop their water at 8pm or so before you go to bed and take them out before you go to bed. During the day housebreaking is no issue as my husband is home, and is excited about getting this dog now, and the evening is no problem as I am home. At the night the pup would be taken out at 7-8pm, again at 12-1 am (when my husband gets home if needed) and at 4-5am in the morning when I get up, then again at 7:30 when may husband gets up with the kids.

We are currently looking at some adult rescues in the states as well as breeders in BC. It seems if we do get a rescue from the US it could end up costing us almost as much as a puppy from here, once we factor in shipping, adoption fees etc, and the risk of shipping the dog as well. Also with a pup more local we would know more about the history of the dog and would have some health guarantees with it. But with an adult dog, we may be able to get one that is already housebroken and somewhat trained. Both either an adult or puppy would be taken to obedience classed regardless. :pawprint: :)

Eleni
June 5th, 2005, 11:00 AM
i dont know to expect a pup might make it thru the night even after taking its water up is probably a false hope. asi mentioned in the other thread my 6 month old pup despite not having water after 7 pm still gets up once in the night.


if your not able to deal with interupted sleep id suggest an older housebroken dog.


Eleni

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 5th, 2005, 11:18 AM
At the night the pup would be taken out at 7-8pm, again at 12-1 am (when my husband gets home if needed) and at 4-5am in the morning when I get up, then again at 7:30 when may husband gets up with the kids.

that is realistically how much we could take the pup out in the night is that reasonable or not enough. I have had the experience of being up with kids in the night as well, athough they don't usually go outside to pee ha ha.

Lucky Rescue
June 5th, 2005, 11:20 AM
if your not able to deal with interupted sleep id suggest an older housebroken dog

Totally agree. Not only will you have to get up during the night with a young puppy, but no doubt there will be a few nights of crying that will keep you awake.

Even an older housebroken dog may have an accident or two from the excitement and stress of a new home, but a few days with a consistant schedule should fix that.

Eleni
June 5th, 2005, 11:33 AM
that is realistically how much we could take the pup out in the night is that reasonable or not enough. I have had the experience of being up with kids in the night as well, athough they don't usually go outside to pee ha ha.


that sounds good, but know that a tiny pup may need out more then that, or a pup who isnt sure how to tell you he needs to go may need out more.

I know when we were in the wrst part of hosuebreaking with sam any sensation he had to go he whined, and wanted out right away ratehr then hold it, honestly i dont blame him.

its been 3 months and now he will hold it for 4 hours at a stretch.

every dog is truely different, and to set a schedual before you get teh dog is in my opinion a setup for failure.

sam is on a set schedual now, once we saw what is normal toilet habits were, but its still flexible for things liek stress, tummy upsets etc.

also remember too dirreah isnt uncommon for pups when you first get them, lots of timesthey need deworming, and change in food/households is quite stressful

same for an older dog, but with a pup it can be frustrating with a busy schedual doing the walk and housebreaking deal when the dog is stressed and you dont know what to expect.

just my thoughts, if you can handle a pup i say go for it, pups are definatly quite the experience, but if there is ANY doubt on yours, or your husbands mind then get an older mroe established dog for the sake of less chaos and more stress free time to bond


Eleni

puppup11
June 5th, 2005, 01:03 PM
It does depend on the dog, and sometimes the breed too. My Staffordshire Terrier would be just fine through the whole night (8-10 hours) when we first got her at 3 1/2 months old (crated, of course).

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 5th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Thanks for the info. If we get a puppy we can expect to be tired for at least a few months.

One of the breeders that we talked to said that house breaking was not a big deal and even the young puppies make it through the night. I found her response questionable so that why I came on here. Also I emailed at least five breeders asking general questions but not actually committing to anyone of them all that have replied have given us great info and told us to keep in touch and let them know what we are doing and want to know about us and meet us as well. Except this one that replied that "your pup will be coming along soon, or I could take one of the ones already born it sort of alarmed me as I they seemed almost to eager to give me a puppy. We have a few rescue ecs that we are looking into one is an adult a choice of a (2 year old female or 5 year old male) in Utah, if it worked out I have family their right now that could bring the dog back by plane at the end of the month. The breeder their was reccomended by the ECS rescue as they seem to know what are the good and bad breeders, but we still need to talk to this breeder in Utah to see if he has an adult dog that would be suitable for us. There are also two others that we are interested in as well
http://www.ecsca.org/currentrescue.html#Northern_California:_Eddy
Eddy in Northern California

and Bibo in Indianna
http://www.ecsca.org/currentrescue.html#Indiana:_Bibo
it doesn't say whether Bibo is housetrained and I am not sure what "go" on concrete actually means?

Dogastrophe
June 5th, 2005, 02:15 PM
We adopted a 6 mos old yorkie / Silky mix about 5 weeks ago. He wasn't housebroken at all -- for the first week, he tought the entire house was his personal latrine. For two weeks we would have to take him out at 9ish pm, again at 3 - 330ish am, and at 6am (we are crate training, otherwise I expect that we would not have known about his 330 pee until the mornings), unless a noise outside started him or one of the others barking, then the stimulus usually jiggled his bladder around enough that he would have to go. He is now making it though the night without any problems and is about 90% over all -- just gone our first week accident free.

As many of the others have noted, working out a schedule (and discovering the pups body language) is a big key to the process. It is a real PITA, especially fumbling for a housecoat or sweats while your brain is trying to wake up, while holding a pup who will pee on you at any second, while trying to open the umbrella up, and not trip over the toys on the way down the stairs, but well worth it.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 5th, 2005, 03:09 PM
Hmmm interesting I think I will go over to the cockers online forum and see what they say about house breaking an ecs, I will return with more info and see what they say.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 5th, 2005, 03:33 PM
This is what the cockers on line (specific too ECS said in their housetraining section

Nightime and Leaving your puppy

When you have to leave your puppy – don’t be surprised to find an accident on your return. This goes for them being left during the day or night.

At night you can either get up when you hear your puppy stir and take them out or leave them until the morning. If you choose to take them out – don’t be tempted to play with the puppy. Just let them toilet and gentle praise and straight back to bed. If you wish to leave your puppy in the kitchen – watch where you step in the morning! Your puppy will learn to hold on more with time.

Deal with any accidents as shown above. You can put paper down if you want but that does confuse some puppies and many owners are cross when the puppy wee’s on the unread Sunday papers!

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 5th, 2005, 05:07 PM
Here is what some of the ecs owners say about housebreaking in the night

my pup wont sleep at all just now so im up ALL the time lol but other people ave said theirs sleep right through from 11 to 7 some wake up at five etc. .

when Spike was a tiny pup he would wake to go out a couple of times a night. But by 11 weeks old that was just once and by 16 weeks he was OK by and large.

Both flip and flop have never wanted to go out at night but during the day when they were pups have wanted to go out whenever they are awake

To be honest, night time has been the easiest bit for us, I would say the most important thing to consider is the day time as puppies demand constant attention, something I hadn't really anticipated.

At eight weeks and on 4 meals a day, Snoopdog would want out twice a night. As he got older and meals reduced he would usually manage to go through 11pm - 5am.

all dogs names have been changed in this thread.

Worst case scenario up all night, best case scenario sleep all night.
Well if we do decide we can handle this I will expect the worst case scenario and hope for the best or somewhere in between.

Safyre
June 5th, 2005, 07:49 PM
When I got Justice, she was 8 weeks old. We went to bed at 11, having gone out just before, then she would whine around 2 am, and around 6 am.
After 2 weeks, she was down to once a night, right around the 4 oclock hour.. and within a month of that, she was holding it from 11 pm to 7 am. Crated, at night.
During the day, we still went by the normal guidleines of month age +1 for how long she was crated during the day.
Now, she goes out when ppl are home.. three different ppl, three different shifts ...

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 5th, 2005, 07:58 PM
That doesn't seem to bad, we have three potential adult dogs that could be suitable for us. One in California, one in Indianna and one in Utah. The one in California could look promising as he is only 4 hours away from Carson City Nevada, my neice has agreed to bring the dog home with her at the end of the month if we end up getting him, there is also one in Salt Lake City that could work as well. :)

tenderfoot
June 5th, 2005, 10:27 PM
Really long web address for gorgeous female cocker being training in a prison training system in Colorado. Worth a look!
Also check out Petfinders.com for any cockers in need of adoption.

http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4462520&adTarget=468doggeneral&SessionID=42a3b39a3d540d44-app2&display=&preview=&row=0&tmpl=&stat=

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 5th, 2005, 10:50 PM
http://www.ecsca.org/difference.html

Thank you tenderfoot she is pretty I emailed her to my hubby although he does prefer the brunettes over the blonds. I had to look at her twice as on first glance she looked american. then her snout is too long for an american, but I thought her eyes looked more american than english. I posted the difference from the ecs sight. I would have posted the pictures but I dont know how to do that on here, if you scroll down the page a bit it as an american and english cocker side by side and you can see the difference. I also saw a show on the prison training program, a while ago, it seems to be a good program that helps the inmates and the dogs as well.

tenderfoot
June 6th, 2005, 10:27 AM
Sorry I wasn't really focusing on the English vs American - I saw a Cocker in need and thought of you. I know how it is though, there can be very strong differences.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 6th, 2005, 06:30 PM
No Problem we officially filled in the ECS adoption form and we are on a wait list for July, we are now awaiting a home visit to see if we officially qualify. Eddy in California may not work out as the temps are getting to hot to ship and the breeder may prefer to adopt the dog to somewhere closer. We are now going contact the ECS rescue for Washington/Idaho as it is close enough that we could drive.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 6th, 2005, 06:31 PM
Sorry I wasn't really focusing on the English vs American - I saw a Cocker in need and thought of you. I know how it is though, there can be very strong differences.

By the way thanks for thinking of me! :)

happycats
June 7th, 2005, 07:48 PM
Hi researchbulls.
I just found this english cocker spaniel in a rescue in my area.
http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4523737&adTarget=468petsgeneral&SessionID=42a631664118e58b-app2&display=&preview=1&row=0&tmpl=&stat=

happycats
June 7th, 2005, 07:54 PM
And another !!http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4557162&adTarget=468petsgeneral&SessionID=42a633583d9f29a3-app4&display=&preview=1&row=0&tmpl=&stat=

mona_b
June 7th, 2005, 08:52 PM
To be honest,there really isn't a breed housebreaking rule.My GSD's where housetrained no different then my sisters Siberian Huskies and Border Collie.Or all my friends who own Dobes,Great Danes,Labs,St.Bernards,Afghans,English Springer Spaniels,Bichons.The list goes on.

But do you understand what I'm saying?

Housebreaking takes time and patience with ANY breed... :)

And just for the record,I never crated my dogs.They were papertrained.And I had absalutely no problems with them.By the time they were 6 months,they had free run of the house with no accidents.And you know what,I would do it this way again...I'm just not big on crate training.Call me old fashioned.... :D

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 7th, 2005, 10:39 PM
Thank you for the ecs on pet finders. We are contact with the ecs rescue my husband spoke to the ecs contact lady in Oregan and she is actually looking for a dog for us. She reccommended getting a rehome rather than a rescue, rehome meaning an adult ex show dog or a female that is to old for breeding, I would take either. It seem it be a good way to go as they know the background of the dogs, and will place them in suitable homes. They would not place Eddy with us http://www.ecsca.org/currentrescue.html#Northern_California:_Eddy
as they said the previous owner gave him up because he was a one owner dog and did not like it when they paid attention to the kids. We also have a breeder picked out if we go that route, she has been breeding for 40 years and have been reccomended by both the ecs rescue contact head people.
Adopting this dog could take a while as they are a bit rare and we also need to find one that is suited to us too. Thank you for thinking of me. Oh I did inquire about poncho and is unforunatley not the right dog for us and the one in Ontario would be a bit to far for us, we would be willing to drive about 12 hours, right now shipping is questionable as it is starting to get hot and it could endanger the dog to ship it long distances. :pawprint: :cool:

Angeleyes1437
June 14th, 2005, 04:46 PM
I am not sure what "go" on concrete actually means?

In the city there aren't patches of grass all over for your dog to go to the bathroom on, so we like when they go on the concrete... plus it's easier to clean. However, people in the country tend to hate this behavior and some even call it "City dog syndrome" lol. To me it's funny... to you it might make sense. Depends where you live.

As for the puppy thing- it really depends on the dog. I got my American Pit Bull Terrier at 4 weeks and he woke up every 2 hours... which is not abnormal. Once he reached about 8 weeks he was sleeping through the night and holding his blatter. By 3 months (a few days after his last shot) he was completely house broken, asked to go out and could hold his bladder for 8-10 hours if neccesary (only had to hold it for 10 hours once... I had a wedding and my friend flaked on coming to let him out). So like I said it depends... because I know people who have dogs for 6-12 months since they were little and can't even housebreak them. Probably has something to do with consistency, but regardless- it's going to depend on a mixture of you and your puppy.

Additionally, if you adopt a 5 year old and have children- don't expect that 5 year old to romp around with the kids. It may, but 5 years old is almost senior age for dogs... they may just want to relax with a nice bone and get some loving most of the time. However, my mini poodle Suzy ran around until about 16 (a year before she died)... after 12 her running became less and less often of course- but she was a champ. (sniff sniff... I miss her)

chico2
June 14th, 2005, 05:00 PM
I dog-walk my neighbors little English Cocker..she's soooo sweet,but piddles a little every time I come to get her,or give her treats through the fence,but she's a wonderful little girl..Good Luck in finding one,I would take my neighbors Cocker in a heartbeat,piddling and all :D
Here's a pic of her...in my birdbath :D

mona_b
June 14th, 2005, 07:57 PM
Additionally, if you adopt a 5 year old and have children- don't expect that 5 year old to romp around with the kids. It may, but 5 years old is almost senior age for dogs... they may just want to relax with a nice bone and get some loving most of the time.

Hmmmmm,I don't think I have met a dog that doesn't love to romp with kids at that age.My previous GSD romped around with my daughter till he was 13..My GSD now is 9 and LOVES to play with the little ones.My sisters 4 dogs(2 are 8 and 2 are 9) also love to play with the kids.And my neice and nephews are all teenagers...I don't think the age of a dog matters.If they love kids,they will romp with them till they drop.... :)

Best of luck finding your furbaby..... :)

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 14th, 2005, 08:34 PM
It is looking like we may end up getting a puppy possibly in September.If it all works out as planned. We have talked to the breeders in BC and out of the three that we have been talking with the one closest to us seems to be our best choice, not just because of distance but also her reputation, her dogs have ear,eye, and hip clearances, no history of this in any of her dogs. Her dogs have been therapy dogs, and also they are black and orange roan our two favorite ecs colours, we were told from a former breeder that the solids tend to be more prone to temperment issues, why I do not know. One of the breeders has had dogs returned because of temperment issues. We would take which ever pup the breeder thought was suitable for us, I don't have a preference for the black or orange roan, and I think we may end up with a male as usually the breeders keep the females. I am preparing myself for the housebreaking part, and residing myself to the fact that I will lose some sleep, we are also starting to puppy proof the house and yard and are fencing off a section of our yard for the dog to use as a toilet area, hopefully this plan will work. My husband wants to take the dog to obedience, he is right into having the dog as well which is nice, as it took him a bit to come around, but now he is right in there, making calls, getting info etc....We are starting to get excited. This is the breeder we have choosen! Thanks for all the input.
http://members.shaw.ca/fieldancers/


:o :pawprint:

mona_b
June 15th, 2005, 08:40 PM
Sorry to get off topic here.But I checked out the Flat Coated Ret.And look who it is.It's Odin...Dr Stanley Coren's Baby..... :D ...This dog is soooooooo very well trained... ;)

http://members.shaw.ca/fieldancers/Odin.htm

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 15th, 2005, 09:41 PM
Who is Dr. Stanley Coren isn't he on the life network, She must be a good breeder if she is using one of his dogs. We can't wait to meet her!!

Hogansma
June 16th, 2005, 04:47 PM
I know your question was about housebreaking but there are other things too that I hope you have considered as to deciding between a puppy or adult dog. The big one I remember with all my puppies was the chewing of shoes, remote controls, chairs etc. My dalmatian, Molly, went through at least 10 remote controls (we stopped counting at 10). Every time we took a bathroom break and forgot to put the remote up very high, she chewed it. Another dog, destroyed a nice new chair. (I went outside for 5 minutes). Also, with an adult dog, you probably know of any health problems. Molly has a huge problem with alergies and I didn't get the pet insurance soon enough to cover it. She has cost a lot of money in medications, special foods and vet bills. I love her to bits and she is worth every penny but still she is expensive. Just a few things to consider.

Dogastrophe
June 16th, 2005, 06:54 PM
Sorry to get off topic here.But I checked out the Flat Coated Ret.And look who it is.It's Odin...Dr Stanley Coren's Baby..... :D ...This dog is soooooooo very well trained... ;)

http://members.shaw.ca/fieldancers/Odin.htm

Just an FYI -- Odin passed away a couple years ago. I met Dr. Coren at a seminar two weeks ago and he still talks very fondly of Odin. He talked about his granddaughter doing a swan dive off the fireplace onto Odin while he was laid out in a deep sleep. Odin raised his head very quickly, gave a little grunt, saw that it was one of the little kids who did it, and put his head down and went back to sleep.

Dogastrophe
June 16th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Who is Dr. Stanley Coren isn't he on the life network, She must be a good breeder if she is using one of his dogs. We can't wait to meet her!!

He is a professor of psycology at UBC and one of the foremost experts in canine behaviour in the world (I believe there is a brief bio on the pets.ca homepage).

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 16th, 2005, 07:05 PM
There is alot to consider thats for sure, I would like to give our puppy one area in our house specifically the kitchen. I have seen this fifteen foot gate that you can get through petsmart, I was actually thinking about getting two and making about a ten by ten area for the pup with a kennel and some toys so the pup can go in there if we are not able to keep an eye on her. There will be nothing she can chew on except maybe the door frame, which I guess is a good possiblity. She will be under constant supervision until she is house broken so we can watch for the signs that she wants to pee or poop. The breeder that we have choosen has an excellent reputation and although we still need to see the health certificates, we have heard from someone involved with ecs's that none of her dogs have had any history of health or temperment problems. It will be a learning experience I am learning as much as I can now, and will continue to learn when the dog comes. Although we are definatley leaning towards a puppy right now, I think if a suitable adult came along we would consider it too, so our options will be open until we actually commit to a dog. We are prepared to deal with either. Right now the puppies are more available, and the rescues are usually too far and would cost to much to ship, about as much as a puppy. Some of the rescues don't give a lot of info about the dog either so you don't know its history or background. Another option we are considering is an ex show dog as well from a breeder. Which ever we get we can't wait to bring him home. :)

mona_b
June 16th, 2005, 07:50 PM
Just an FYI -- Odin passed away a couple years ago. I met Dr. Coren at a seminar two weeks ago and he still talks very fondly of Odin. He talked about his granddaughter doing a swan dive off the fireplace onto Odin while he was laid out in a deep sleep. Odin raised his head very quickly, gave a little grunt, saw that it was one of the little kids who did it, and put his head down and went back to sleep.

:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

Poor Odin....

here is a link about him research...Not sure if it's updated.

http://www.stanleycoren.com/bio.htm

another

http://www.animalnews.com/coren/bio.html

Joey.E.CockersMommy
June 16th, 2005, 09:26 PM
Thank you for the link. I did email him. He is probably pretty busy so not sure if I will get a reply, but it would be exciting if I did. :)