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Legal Blues

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 01:55 PM
Ok so my sister just somewhat adopted a blue doberman puppy. He is 5 months old. She got him from the US from a woman that did not want two males in the house. Well the woman sold him to my sister for $100 down and $400 to be paid over time. Here is the question: The woman never gave my sister any paperwork on the dog. He is AKC registered and everything. My sister is just looking for ownership and does not want to breed him or show him, just proof that he is legally hers. The woman she bought him from was somewhat shady so Katie my sister does not want to send more money until she can at least know he is legally hers. If the woman still has his AKC paperwork and vet records can she not just come and get him seeing as she has proof that she owns him and Katie dosent? It is all so confusing but I do not want my sister losing out on her dog and money as well. He is scheduled to go in for his teter(sp) test to see if he has his shots and then he is going in for his neuter at the end of June. What would you guys do in this situation? Would you send the remainder of the money? The woman has already told my sister that she is not giving her any paperwork. I really do not know what to tell her. All you legal minds out there, any info or opinions would be great. :)

BMDLuver
May 31st, 2005, 01:58 PM
How did your sister make the first payment of $100? Is the pup micro chipped? Then I can go from there, lol.

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 02:00 PM
She payed the first $100 in cash, and she is not sure if he is microchipped or not and needs to find a vet that can check.

BMDLuver
May 31st, 2005, 02:01 PM
k, did the lady give her a receipt of any kind for the cash?

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 02:05 PM
they have a little hand written agreement that shows that she recieved the 100 down and that the rest will be payed off in 2 months or less and if not that she has the right to come and take the dog home(exact wording) then they both signed and thats it

BMDLuver
May 31st, 2005, 02:08 PM
So no mention of paperwork being given or any such thing? hmmmm, how did she get the dog across the border without even a DHPP vaccination certificate or a health certificate.. What state did the dog come out of? Some states have pretty high regulations about selling dogs out of state etc.. and what's required to transport. There may be a loophole there that your sister can use. Also, she can contact the AKC to see if the woman is a member in good standing.

Lucky Rescue
May 31st, 2005, 02:08 PM
Where is the dog now?

they have a little hand written agreement that shows that she recieved the 100 down and that the rest will be payed off in 2 months or less and if not that she has the right to come and take the dog home(exact wording) then they both signed and thats it

If your sister already has the dog, then that is all she needs.

raingirl
May 31st, 2005, 02:09 PM
If you have something in writing they both signed, they your sister should be fine.

Make sure that your sister writes on the next cheques in the memo section "payment # 2 for blue doberman as per agreement". The cheque is then returned to her bank after it is cashed, which will have the original owners signature. If there are any discrepancies or problems, she just needs to provide the written contract and copies of her cheques from the bank. If the dog is not microchipped, she should microchip him and register it in her name. Also get the dog registered in the city she lives in under her name. All should be fine with that.

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 02:10 PM
She wants to contact the AKC but she dosent even know his registered name. She got him from PA, the woman claims she can come and get him but she dosent have my sisters address just the city that she lives in and her unlisted number. I know Katie wants to give her the money and money isnt the issue but she really does not trust the woman.

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 02:12 PM
Oh and about the border, they just drove across and no one asked about the puppy. She had the receipt and the former owner said she would just have to pay duty if they asked about the pup.

BMDLuver
May 31st, 2005, 02:14 PM
The AKC has a record of owners names as well as dogs. If the dog came out of PA, there's a good chance it's a mill dog. LMAO, the lady can't find your sister if she doesn't have an address unless she wants to pay some money to find her. I would not send another penny, let the lady try to find her. All she can do at the time is hand her over the other $300 that she owes the lady and say there, transaction complete. The lady wants her cash, she doesn't care about the dog obviously or she would not have let someone she hasn't a clue about take the dog in the first place.

Lucky Rescue
May 31st, 2005, 02:24 PM
And if your sister doesn't know it, tell her she will probably end up with a hairless dog, as alopecia is VERY common in blue Dobermans.

To bring the dog over the border, you should have rabies vax certificate, and the dog should be clearly described on it.

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 02:36 PM
She knows all about alopecia. This is another reason she is hesitant to send money. She has to take the dog for his health check and what if it comes back that something is wrong. There is more money that has to be spent because the woman told her she does her own vaccines. I am going to call her and have her check the site to see all your helpful awnsers. You guys are awesome :)

BMDLuver
May 31st, 2005, 02:44 PM
If she does her own vaccines then she is most likely a mill. The dog could not possibly have had rabies as that's one you can't buy over the counter no matter where. It's only a 6in1 that can be purchased maximum. As he is under 6 months old, she knew the border laws well and that she would not get stopped at this age for no rabies as it is only a requirement after 6 months and then they will let you go with a 14 day rabies proof sent to customs ag people. How did your sister find out about this dog?

Cactus Flower
May 31st, 2005, 03:03 PM
If they have a written agreement, why is your sister hedging on payment? She agreed to pay so much for the dog, and so she should.

If she doesn't plan to breed this dog, why are the AKC papers important to her?

On her last payment, she should write "final payment for dog, per contract" on the check. Done deal. I doubt if this woman would have any reason or compulsion to drive into Canada, find your sister, and repossess a dog that has been paid for as agreed.

You DO have to show proof of vaccinations to get a dog across the border. Unless she hid this pup somehow, something is not adding up here.

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 03:43 PM
It all adds up. She did not hide the dog, he was sitting in the back seat with his harness attached to the seat belt. I bring my dogs over the border all the time, of course i have my paperwork with me but I have only been asked once. Living 15 mins from the border I am over there about 3 times a week. She called and asked the border what would happen if she brought the dog back into Canada, the man on the phone said that you need proof that the dog was purchased in Canada or you may have to pay duty. She was prepared to pay duty and had the hand written agreement that she was to pay $500 for the dog. I know they are supposed to ask for a vaccination record but in this case they didnt. Enough said, shes not a smuggler if thats whats being intended here. The border is not the point though, its ownership of the dog. Also as mentioned she was worrying about sending more money because she still does not have legal ownership of the dog if the woman still have his paperwork and the microchip is in her name. She had asked the previous owner if she could have some form of ownership for the dog. She does not want AKC paperwork to breed or anything just limited registration as proof of ownership. It all adds up in my head.

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 03:44 PM
BMD: He was listed on the petfinder classifieds for PA. Your answers and pm were very helpful and I thank you.

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 03:48 PM
My sister is just looking for ownership and does not want to breed him or show him, just proof that he is legally hers. The woman she bought him from was somewhat shady so Katie my sister does not want to send more money until she can at least know he is legally hers. If the woman still has his AKC paperwork and vet records can she not just come and get him seeing as she has proof that she owns him and Katie dosent?

Cactus, here is where I state that she is not interested in breeding just in ownership. They have grown very attached to the pup and do not want to see him back in the hands of this woman who was willing to sell him to anyone.

Cactus Flower
May 31st, 2005, 04:25 PM
Right, but you also stated that they have a written contract. The written contract and record of payment shows that she bought/is buying the dog.
How many of us actually have "PROOF" that our dogs are ours? I never put Raj's registration papers into my name, but I'm not worried about the owner coming around and saying that she is still hers. Chloe HAS no "papers", so I guess people will just have to take her bad haircut and my word for her being mine.
Of course, I would not default on a contract to pay for either of my dogs, either, so the original owner would have no reason to want to come and repossess them.
I took my dog, Dacia (R.I.P) across the Canadian border many times, by plane (once) and by car, and I was always asked for proof of vaccinations. I suppose the protocol is just much much more relaxed now? If so, this surprises me. I know of no country that just allows you to bring in an animal with no questions asked.

This situation sounds remarkably familiar....are you sure we're talking about your sister?

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 04:31 PM
Yes Sadie we are talking abouy my sister and not about Atticus thank you very much. If you have anything to say please do so over pm. Thats all I ask, please do not post your suspisions here.

Also she is not defaulting on payment, she is paying the lady with a money order. I do not know this woman, but my sister had bad feelings about her, this is why I asked, not to be interigated about crossing the border.

And I do know that going into the US yes I have been asked about shot records. however coming back into Canada with my dogs I have only been asked once and that was when Sable was still a pup so they thought I bought her over there. I havent even been asked for my id coming back into canada but have been asked going into the US. They seem to be a bit more easy on that. Seeing as I used to work there, I know the border here is still on work to rule. Who knows, but once again that was not the concern I was posting about. Next time I wont ask.

Sneaky2006
May 31st, 2005, 04:39 PM
First, don't get so defensive, second, you had to know this was coming.
I don't normally speak for people but I think the reason for the socalled interrogation about crossing the border is to show pattern, pattern of lies that is.

Btw Sadie... you go girl!! So glad you said something!!! :D

kandy
May 31st, 2005, 05:06 PM
When I was young (around 1978 or 79), we took a trip to northern Montana and decided to go into Canada. We had our GSD with us (no shot records, no nothing)and the Canadian government had no problem letting us in but they were nice enough to tell us that the US would not let the dog back in to the US without shot records. Of course, we decided not to cross the border. I don't know if the border laws have changed, but I know that Canada wasn't the one being restrictive - it was the US.

And I would say that the reason this woman won't give your sister any paperwork, is because she never had any to begin with. I've seen ads down here where someone will give you a dog, but if you want the AKC paperwork, then you have to pay. I wouldn't worry about anyone contesting ownership.

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 05:06 PM
Who wouldnt get defensive when being accused of something? If you have anything to say please do so over pm. Thank you

greaterdane
May 31st, 2005, 05:07 PM
thanks Kandy. Katie knows all of this and has called the woman and will settling the payment. I knew it wasnt just me that dosent have problems getting over the border, i cant be that special lol :)

Sneaky2006
May 31st, 2005, 05:14 PM
Who wouldnt get defensive when being accused of something? If you have anything to say please do so over pm. Thank youKeep playing your games, all is well. No need for PMs, I don't have anything else to say to you. Have a great day.

Cactus Flower
May 31st, 2005, 05:21 PM
The reason I talked about defaulting on payment is because you have said she is "hesitant" to send any more money.

And I can certainly understand why you would not want my "suspicions" posted here for all to read.

I'm with Sneaky on this one. I'm taking my pawn off the game table.

Lucky Rescue
May 31st, 2005, 06:48 PM
I guess further discussion can go to PM. I had no idea this was Mommyto2bullies buying the Dobe. ADD - it's the pits. :rolleyes:

ETA:Proof of ownership - all I have for my dog is a handwritten receipt and that is all that is required. No AKC papers necessary.

All it needs to say is:

"I, ____________ sell to ___________ a male Blue Doberman, 5 months old for the sum of __________ Date__________ Signed__________"

And both parties sign. This is legal even if it's written on a napkin.

Lucky Rescue
June 3rd, 2005, 01:43 PM
I have reopened this thread for now to issue a warning.

IF anyone here is still in contact with this person, and considering sending her any money - DO NOT DO IT!!

If you have already tried to help her out in good faith, I suggest you cut your losses and block her on any email accounts you may have.

Eleni
June 3rd, 2005, 01:50 PM
may I ask what happened? or is this something better off discussed in pm?


Eleni

GWPsRock
June 3rd, 2005, 02:51 PM
I'm with Eleni on this one......

huh?!

doggy lover
June 3rd, 2005, 05:26 PM
I'm clueless and I think I want to stay that way.

Cactus Flower
June 4th, 2005, 12:38 AM
Feel free to pm me with any questions you all might have. I can fill you in directly.

Lucky Rescue
June 4th, 2005, 05:55 PM
Thank you Cactus Flower. I'll close the thread again now, that everyone has been warned.