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Now My Dog is a Pitbull and has to die?

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JenSteele
May 24th, 2005, 12:13 PM
Today, we had a visit from the Kitchener-Waterloo Humane Society. Not because our dog bit anyone. Not because our dog barked at anyone. Not because our dog did anything to anyone. A person in our neighbourhood who isn't particually fond of anyone, called the Humane Society and told them that we had a pitbull. We've been told we have to kill or move our dog.

When we first got the dog, Lily, we had our concerns when a person at Petcetera asked if she's a pitbull. So we called the Humane Society of Kitchener Waterloo and they said "If she ends up being classified as a pitbull you'll have to spay her, have a locator chip put in her, have her restrained and muzzled when she's outside, and allow unannounced visits to your home by the Humane Society to ensure you stay in complience." We then had her seen by 3 different vets, to be really safe, and all came back as lab cross or lab/boxer, no staff no pitbull anywhere on the papers.

When the humane society showed up at our door taking pictures of our dog and saying she has to be moved out of province or destroyed because they - the Humane Society - are calling her a pitbull on a neighbours complaint, we were completely blown away. We told the moron who said the word destroyed with a smile on her face that we've had 3 vets classify her to be sure, her response was "Vet's will put anything down anything you tell them to."

So now, a dog that we love dearly, who is gentle, good with kids and all people, wags just because the sun came up, is going to be shipped away or destroyed because the Humane Society thinks vets lie for a living.

Can anyone point me to any body, group, something in Ontario who will help us fight for our dog's life?

Much appreciated.
Jen

kayla
May 24th, 2005, 12:18 PM
what an aweful story :( i don't know much about the laws but i didn't think pit bulls had to be "destroyed", i thought they just had to be muzzled when outdoors? hopefully someone here can help you out better than me. good luck!

Trinitie
May 24th, 2005, 12:20 PM
This really breaks my heart. Can anyone in Ontario point her in the right direction??

Copper'sMom
May 24th, 2005, 12:21 PM
OMG!!! I can't believe this. First off, I'm so sorry for your situation - this is horrible.

Is your dog registered with the city?? Are you located right in Kitchener? I think there is a ban on Pit Bulls in Kitchener and if your dog was not registered before this took effect, you may have no options but to move.

With the new ban for all of Ontario, any dog that looks like a Pit, will automatically be condemned until they get the their ***** together as who can identify what breed a dog is or isn't unless you have a pure bred whatever WITH registration papers and the bloodlines.

levimh
May 24th, 2005, 12:21 PM
This is ridiculous. I just read in the paper this morning about a family, that owns a 13-year-old APBT, which they have to give over to the municipality to be destroyed because that county has banned "pit bulls", Rottweilers, Dobes, and AmStaffs. This 13-year-old dog has absolutely no history of aggression.

Sorry, I don't know of any groups, clubs or organizations, but I'm sure someone on here will be along shortly to help. Keep fighting and good luck!

BMDLuver
May 24th, 2005, 12:22 PM
http://bulliesinneed.fivepixelmedia.com/

Try this group. They may be able to help you fight this and they will definitely be able to point you in the right direction. I'm very sorry that you and your family are being so badly treated by your community and HS. Give your girl a big hug and fight hard! :grouphug:

LavenderRott
May 24th, 2005, 12:23 PM
Hold on a sec and I will see what I can find out.

Copper'sMom
May 24th, 2005, 12:24 PM
How long have you had the dog and how long ago was it that you called the HS to ask about IF she was a Pit Bull when someone from Petcetera asked is she was a Pit?

canine14
May 24th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Am so sorry. Kudos to you for fighting for your girl. Someone should start a class action suit against the government for violation of human rights.

Beaglemom
May 24th, 2005, 12:26 PM
From what I understand of the new law, all pit bull type dogs must be spayed/neutered and muzzled and leashed in public and registered. All dogs currently residing in Ontario can stay so long as they are in compliance with the above. All of this comes into effect in August. No dog currently residing in Ontario with their owners have to be shipped away or destroyed. Although, like CoppersMom said, there are some municipalities that have their own bylaw already in effect and this may be the case in your situation.

I know of someone who has a pit bull and the humane society only asked that they provide proof of immunization and a dog license. There was no mention of them having to ship the dog out of province or have the dog destroyed. This happened in Toronto.

LavenderRott
May 24th, 2005, 12:38 PM
From what I understand of the new law, all pit bull type dogs must be spayed/neutered and muzzled and leashed in public and registered. All dogs currently residing in Ontario can stay so long as they are in compliance with the above. All of this comes into effect in August. No dog currently residing in Ontario with their owners have to be shipped away or destroyed. Although, like CoppersMom said, there are some municipalities that have their own bylaw already in effect and this may be the case in your situation.

I know of someone who has a pit bull and the humane society only asked that they provide proof of immunization and a dog license. There was no mention of them having to ship the dog out of province or have the dog destroyed. This happened in Toronto.

The new law in Ontario is moot in this case. Kitchner - Waterloo is a whole nother ball of wax.

Jen - check your pm's.

JenSteele
May 24th, 2005, 01:05 PM
First, thank-you all so much about your replies and thoughts and suggestions. We're doing everything that anyone comes up with. We have people calling the Vetrenary Society of Canada because of the remarks made by the KWHS, the Toronto Humane Society who spoke out against the pitbull legislation, mps, mpps, and as many people who will give us an ear. To answer a few questions.

Yes we're right in Kitchener. The dog was not registered as a pitbull because we trusted that two vets in two seperate cities and one vet who works exclusively at an emergency clinic, all with over 20 years of experience each, knew what they were looking at.

Yes there's a bi-law in Kitchener that completely bans pitbulls. This law, that has been in effect since 1997 - which I found out about today, was never mentioned to us when we originally called the Humane Society for advice when we first got Lily. You would think with such a harsh and cruel law in place they would have told us about it to make us aware of what we might run into if we didn't classify our dog.

The pending Ontario Law passed this year is what was stated to us originally. Considering she was definitely living with us before March 1, 2005, the restrain, muzzle, spay and monitor should be all we're looking at, however, unknown to a lot of dog owners in this area, Kitchener-Waterloo quiety passed an additional municipal law in 1997. The KW-HS made no mention whatsoever of the KW bi-law. So much for trusting the Humane Society to know what's what. Instead, they now say we have to destroy her because we didn't register her as a pitbull. They're now not even giving us the option of moving her away. But we're digging our heals in. In a conversation with the SPCA there have been more than just a few complaints about the Kitchener-Waterloo Humane Society.

The timeline from that person's inquirey at petcetera if she's a pitbull, to calling the HS for advice and having her see vets was within one week of getting her. She's now just over a year old.

If I missed anything please let me know. I'll check my pms now. Thanks! If you pray, pray for the innocent. What people do with irresponsible laws, putting people in charge with no training, caring very little to get facts, if any at all, is going to have a lot of dogs destroyed in Ontario.

Jen

Schwinn
May 24th, 2005, 01:08 PM
Who's the group who hired Clayton Ruby? Advocates for the Underdog? This sounds like the perfect opportunity to challenge a BSL in court. 3 experts claim the dog isn't a pit, and some putz with an axe to grind says it is? Wrong. If anyone has the link, post it here.

JenSteele
May 24th, 2005, 01:19 PM
Found them.. we're contacting them now. Thanks!

bluntman
May 24th, 2005, 01:20 PM
They're now not even giving us the option of moving her away. But we're digging our heals in. In a conversation with the SPCA there have been more than just a few complaints about the Kitchener-Waterloo Humane Society. Jen
Good for you jen! :thumbs up , dig in those heals and fight for what you know is right. They cannot stop you from relocateing her to save her life, they are definatly trying to bully, and intimadate you . Here is the link for avocates for the under dog, E-mail them your situation and hopefully they can help.
http://www.advocatesfortheunderdog.com/

Copper'sMom
May 24th, 2005, 01:20 PM
Try these two links:

http://www.bannedaid.com

http://advocatesfortheunderdog.com/index.html

JenSteele
May 24th, 2005, 01:33 PM
http://www.advocatesfortheunderdog.com/media.html

Have a look at this and maybe more will understand that the Humane Society being in charge of this is absolutely rediculous and I feel we should all fight to have their authority in this completely revoked... Scroll down and you'll see a story about a woman who is currently fighting to save the life of her dog unlike the 200 other dogs in the Windsor Ontario area who've already been killed since the Windsor bi-law passed last October.

Shamrock
May 24th, 2005, 02:59 PM
How terrible this is! I'm so sorry you are now faced with such an upsetting situation, and wish you all the best of luck in your fight for your girl.
I just dont know how things have come to this.. witchunt on dogs..in Ontario..
Sad. :sad:

Lissa
May 24th, 2005, 03:18 PM
I can't believe the injustice of this situation! I don't understand how int his day, when human rights and equality are paramount how this can happen!

I know that this isn't something anybody wants to think about right now but here it goes: If this doesn't work out are you going to have to give your dog away to someone (family member?) or will you move away? I only mention this because I know that I would move away but it's easy for me - but for people who have a family and careers underway it is entirely different. I know that none of them could afford to move away, lose their pension and uproot their children and/or SO. How the humane society can put you in this predicament is beyond me! :mad:

I can't believe that this humane society is being so ludicrous (not to mention the neighbour). I truly wish you the best of luck and hope that more people with similar complaints will join you in this fight! I can't imagine how distraught you must be!

Good luck!

Melissa

Safyre
May 24th, 2005, 03:21 PM
Alright, I am completely against the ban as everyone knows, but here is some info.. trying to clarify things for the OP

Kitchener waterloo has had a ban on Pit bulls since 1997. Any 'pit bull' under that age found in the city that is not given an exception (pure bred Am Staffs registered) are to be destroyed. No exceptions.
The problem is in what the by-law states

530.1.3 Pit Bull dog - defined
"Pit Bull dog" means a dog of any age which can be identified as a dog of one or more of the following breeds or mixed breeds by the Poundkeeper, namely:
(a) Pit Bull Terrier
(b) American Pit Bull Terrier
(c) Pit Bull
(b) Stafford Bull Terrier, except a Staffordshire Bull Terrier which is registered with the American Kennel Club or the Canadian Kennel Club;
(e) American Staffordshire Terrier, except and American Staffordshire Terrier which is registered with the merican Kennel Club or the Canadian Kennel Club. By-law 2002-232 18 December, 2000.

530.1.4 Poundkeeper - defined
For the purpose of this Chapter the Kitchener-Waterloo and North Waterloo Humane Society, including its officers and employess, shall be deemed to be the poundkeeper of the City of Kitchener.

Here is a link for a PDF of the By Law http://code.municipalworld.com/kitchener/530.pdf


THE POUNDKEEPER which is the Humane Society determines what your dog is, NOT YOUR VET.
That is the MAJOR problem in this persons case. The Humane Society, under the by law has the right to say what a dog is, therefore, if they say its a pit, its a pit. Only way to prove otherwise is purebred dog with papers.


Fight your lil @ss off, KW is an example city for the Ontario by law. Fight it!

Just wanted to explain to those not in KW or familar with the breed ban there more info so that you can understand the full predicitment.

BMDLuver
May 24th, 2005, 03:33 PM
THE POUNDKEEPER which is the Humane Society determines what your dog is, NOT YOUR VET.
That is the MAJOR problem in this persons case. The Humane Society, under the by law has the right to say what a dog is, therefore, if they say its a pit, its a pit. Only way to prove otherwise is purebred dog with papers.

That's the saddest part as they can be totally clueless and just plunk a label down conveniently. :sad:

chico2
May 24th, 2005, 03:49 PM
I certainly can be of no help,but I am horrified at what KWHS is doing,it's unbelievable :mad:
You are supposed to kill your 1yr old dog?Pit-bull or not,that is outrageous!!!
I sincerely hope there is something you can do,hopefully with the help of some of the organisations mentioned here.
I'd tell you one thing,HS would have to walk over my dead body before they killed an innocent dog,whom I love....it's sickening!

JenSteele
May 24th, 2005, 04:51 PM
Thank-you again all for your sentiments. We just got off the phone after an hour and 1/2 conversation with the SPCA about this situation talking about what we can do and they can do about the KW by-law. The SPCA's hands are tied in this situation and believe it or not the woman we were speaking with was almost in tears that she can't help us. Because the KW by-law says .. just like you said above.. it's up to the poundkeeper who has nowhere near the training of 3 vets basically KWHS can doom any dog they like just by calling it a pitbull. Wish I knew that before I gave them a tonne of money last year. There's irony for you.

We're also going to be doing an interview with the local news station and newspaper next week. We contemplated letting the court route ride it out but nobody in Kitchener has ever won their case yet. So, we're going as public as we need to because there's more impact when you can make legislators and policitians look like idiots and you can say a lot more in the press than you can in a court. If we're going to lose we're going to stir it up. There's already talk of us walking Lily up the stairs of City Hall on camera to have the mayor tell us why our dog has to die? Whatever it takes.

Not only has this made us realize that it's time to sell our home and get out of a town that would be so cruel to any living thing, it's also made us realize, because lets face it nobody knows better about something than when they're in the thick of it, that win or lose, we're going to start fighting to have the provincial laws and KW by-law changed and not just with petitions.

Can we move with her? No. Not for a least a year. All of our business is here. We will pay as many fines as the city wants to throw against us for not turning her over to be destroyed. I told a few people today they're going to have to throw us and few dozen people in jail before we'll let her be destroyed. Yep the heals are digging in even harder.

We are in the process of making arrangements for her to be borded at a farm that will hide her until we can relocate out of Ontario. Our business employs many people and brings more business into the this city. It's interesting that a city will cost people their jobs and a viable business just because they don't want my breed of dog in it. But you all know as dog people they're our family and if what we have to do is put the plans in place to close down business and be out of this city and province in a year, then that's what we're going to do.

Even if we were to win, I promise our fight won't stop. I signed a few petitions against bans that have come my way, I think it's time to do more than just lend a signature. I've learned a lot today about how willing the world is to save the life of an innocent, and I'm very overwhelmed with kindness of people today and kindness and real sincere concern expressed in here today.

I'll keep posting in here day by day as events unfold. Either way I promise all of you Lily will live no matter what we have to do.

BMDLuver
May 24th, 2005, 05:12 PM
I'm glad that you have decided to fight with all you have. If there are things that any of us can help you out with or if you need backup from rescues who deal with pitts or anything, just give a holler on the board and you'll see how many of us truly love pitts. If you're just having a bad day with the struggle then vent, we'll listen. I can't imagine being told what you were today. Go get em!

satchelp
May 24th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Jen, I'm very sorry to hear of your predicament. It goes without saying that the KW legislation, not to mention the provincial legislation is unfair, unfounded, and completely sickening. I just wanted to commend you for your level-headed handling of this difficult situation. I wish you and Lily all the luck in the world. Neither of you deserves this.

Dianne

Writing4Fun
May 24th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Our business employs many people and brings more business into the this city. It's interesting that a city will cost people their jobs and a viable business just because they don't want my breed of dog in it. But you all know as dog people they're our family and if what we have to do is put the plans in place to close down business and be out of this city and province in a year, then that's what we're going to do.
Have you spoken directly with your mayor yet? I would hope that the income your business brings in, all the people you employ and the revenue they generate, would be worth something to the City and they might be persuaded to re-evaluate the current by-law (or at least appoint a qualified person to determine a dog's breed!).

This is rediculous. I so feel for you and your family! :grouphug:

twodogsandacat
May 24th, 2005, 05:28 PM
This is exactly the type of situation that should get the Ontario ban overturned. You have no way to prove that you are trying to obey the law until you are charged and then……. you have a problem.

I have a mix and every once in awhile I hear “Is he part pit”? The answer is no.

He was adopted as a mix.
The first vet called him a mix.
His new vet has him down as a mix.
Animal Control still needs a look at him.

Now when some non-dog person says is that a pit it would suggest that some people think that he is. Still these are often non-dog people but it does suggest that we may have to defend that someday. Now some would say well if they ask then maybe you should be worried. Should I? Some have looked at my Pointer and asked the same question. His only defence is that a Pointer is a purebred. Here are our options..

Register him as a pit and never throw a ball in the river for him again. Why do that if he isn’t a pit? My co-workers say “he’s not a pit” but I have to say I know but what are my options are you going to pay my legal fees? I won’t know until I see a lawyer.

The issue is if we are told over and over again by vets, animal control, and the SPCA that we ‘should’ be OK it still won’t protect us. SHOULD what kind of word is that? Will SHOULD be a valid defence? Bryant the idiot said if you own a pit then you know you own a pit. Really? Then based on that statement is “I didn’t know and therefore I don’t” a valid defence?

If I move to the next municipality over and some city employee animal control officer that simply had more seniority than the guy that really knows something about dogs thinks he is part pit then I could be arrested, convicted and fined. That would impede my ability to earn a living, cross the border and live a decent life.

So here is somebody who was told by three vets and the SPCA to not worry and now the dog is at risk (the dog however is still LEGAL in Ontario just not KW so tell them to shove that ‘out of Ontario’ you know where). Soon you will see innocent people charged for having a pit as there is no clear definition of what a pit is. By not providing a mechanism to have your dog looked at and ‘cleared’ as a non pit bull the Attorney General has left a lot to the discretion of a few individuals with varying levels of skill.

I’m not anti-pit (infact now I'm pro pit) and will continue to fight BSL completely but if you have a pit and you know it you should comply with the law until it is overturned but for those who own mixes it leaves many of us completely at the mercy of the animal control in one municipality and if we move at the mercy of another.

Terrie
May 24th, 2005, 05:32 PM
Ok, I've got my Grrrr On !
I'm so so sorry to hear of your troubles, please refrain if you can from putting her down.
Does this neighbor have a teenage kid? I'd be watching THAT :evil: angelic little thing.

I hate it when people have nothing else to do with their lives but make others lives miserable.

My heart goes out to you and Kuma will say a puppy prayer for Lily!

kandy
May 24th, 2005, 05:41 PM
I just can't imagine being told that you have to destroy your sweet baby for no good reason other than some *itch at the Humane Society says he's a pitt!?! :mad: I totally agree that you should go public - get as much publicity as you can and make sure that everyone sees how sweet your baby is!! It would be really good if you could get some pix of her kissing a toddler's face or something! I feel so bad for you - I am in tears just thinking about this! I would fight tooth and nail before I let someone tell me to destroy my dog and I don't care what breed it is! This ban is so wrong - I don't even want to think about how many wonderful dogs have been destroyed because of it! Aggressive dogs should be treated just like aggressive people - one case at a time. Laws like this make me think that Hitler is still alive and well. I wish you all the best in your fight against this inhumane law!!!

JenSteele
May 24th, 2005, 05:59 PM
Ok, here's a way you can help us save Lily. Email the KWHS, and ask them what the qualifications are for the poundkeepers who determine what a pitbull is? How long where they trained? Were they trained on this specific breed or was it a crash-course for finding determining a pitbull? What previous experience do the people training the poundkeepers have in identifying pitbulls? What gives a poundkeeper the authority to over-ride the findings of vets and a dog breeder (who has now joined us)?

What the KWHS needs to realize, that it's not just one dog person who's on to them, and it's not just one family that's upset at the loss of their dog. If you would entitle your email subject "Saving Lily The Lab-Cross Pitbull on Birch Street" and have all the same questions, I think they'll get the point loud and clear. If the KWHS feels that lots of grief is about to come their way , because we were just told nobody has the "balls" to fight the HS, I have a feeling this may turn a bit.

Their email address is info@kwhumane.com . My real name is Jennifer (Steele) Mitchell and the people who are fighting for Lily's life and now the life of every dog in this idiotic city are Jennifer Steele Mitchell and Sam Mitchell. If you would like to send a copy of your email to me for our records, the address is jen@2gogroup.com

If they don't answer you, press them for an answer. They have yet to return our phonecalls and emails on this same point.

As for pits or whatever, after we save Lily one way or another, yes, the bigger fight is the legislation. We're not pulling the clout card with the Mayor because while it would probably back everyone off of Lily, it won't save the 100s of dogs being killed every month in Ontario owned by people who don't have that kind of card in their back pocket. Changing things, in my opinion, is only good if it changes for everyone.

Thanks again!!!!!!!
Jen

LavenderRott
May 24th, 2005, 07:13 PM
Jen, please post your first and last post on the pit-bull forum that I sent you the link to. These people are serious about fighting BSL. I am sure you can get plenty of letters from those folks.

twodogsandacat
May 24th, 2005, 08:01 PM
I have posted a link into the DLCC forum and hopefully one of them will show up soon.

Jen: Did you own Lily before the ban went into effect?

canine14
May 24th, 2005, 10:28 PM
Jen,

Keep fighting. You're in the right! We are all behind you. What you are doing can potentially save many dogs, not just Lily. Maybe the movement can be called, "Lily's Law" ... it has a ring to it.

I'm moving to Ontario soon and am beginning to wonder if it's as great a province as I thought. Hmmm.

Lisa.

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 08:37 AM
UPDATE FOR TODAY:

First, yes I'll get those posts going in the other forums today as well and thank-you to everyone who has emailed the KWHS so far.

We were just officially served with the notice to destroy her or have her moved out the city today.

However, we received WONDERFUL news today that Advocates for the Underdog said "we will do whatever we can to help you in this situation". We've also received the same message from reporters and politicians. The AFTU is having a phone meeting with us tonight. It really is HE/SHE who BARKS the loudest and I appeal to anyone in the same situation to get out there and get your voice heard.

After really reading over the Provincial and Municipal by-laws, and I mean for hours studying and comparing both laws, we found a small but possible loophole in the point of law between the Ontario Law and the Kitchener by-law. The Ontario pitbull by-law states that whichever by-law is more restrictive - between the province and a municipality, in that area the point of law in that by-law shall supersede the other. Meaning which ever law is tougher, that's the law that holds. So, while the KW by-law is more restrictive in a complete ban on dogs determined to be pitbulls, the Ontario by-law is more restrictive in saying a certified vet must determine the classification instead of the KW by-law which is simply poundkeeper, therefore, making the Ontario by-law supersede the KW by-law.

After doing a bit more research, we found that none of the appeals so far in Kitchener even bothered to argue that point or bothered to argue the point of the training of the poundkeeper. Instead the argument was, whether or not the dog is a pitbull. Because the KW Law is so very vage in that area, you're bound to lose if the whole argument is based on that point.

The big picture beyond that - that the press likes - is if Kitchener can pass a by-law that supersedes that of an Ontario Law, 1) What is the point of voting in Ontario Elections, and 2) Are the powers of an individual city becoming so absolute that Ontario laws no longer matter within a city or town? Basically it's not the Premier who's Big Brother, it's your local Mayor. And when that much power is in the hands of one small council who are fed campaign donations by the likes of the Humane Society and others you're living in a dictatorship, not a democracy. The Provincial Government of Ontario has been shifting the power of law down to municipalities since the late 80s because they don't want to be seen as the bad guys. However, the shifting of power is costing innocent lives.

I just want to clarify something else, even if we lose, we will not let anyone destroy our 1 year old Lily. She didn't ask to be part of this, and she did nothing to bring this on her innocent little self. We honestly don't care what fines we have to face for not handing her over, and we're ready to send her into the "doggie underground" to protect her, until we can move out of this city if we lose.

Again, thank-you so much for your help and pointing me in the right direction... I'll continue posting updates as we know more.

Jennifer

Schwinn
May 25th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Good luck, Jennifer! You have lots of allies here! Two things. Is there anything that allows them to enter your home or property to take her? And I would contact CityTV, Alex Pierson specifically. I think if this hits City, it will bring even more support on board.

BoxerRescueMTL
May 25th, 2005, 09:07 AM
I just wanted to say good luck, Jen!!!!!! I will be emailing your humane society! You are doing an great job :)

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 09:12 AM
This is word for word the notice handed to us today. I'm doing this so you know what the City of Kitchener and the Kitchener-Waterloo Humane Society is willing to put you through and how the City of Kitchener, Ontario and the Kitchener-Waterloo Humane society expect you to find a lawyer, get witness affidavits, detailed papers from your vet, figure out how to write an appeal and have your appeal in within 5 days. You'll also notice that they don't mention anywhere in the letter that if you file an appeal the appeal can let you keep your dog for another 30 to 60 days until the hearing. So you can imagine the number of people in the Kitchener-Waterloo area who have no clue about law, or what to do, feeling absolutely defeated and forced to just hand their dog over to be destroyed. What's going on here isn't law, it's a crime and it includes very poor grammar which can't even get the spelling of our dog's name right.

Here's the notice:


From: Kitchener-Waterloo Humane Society , 250 Riverbend Drive, Kitchener, On, N2B 2E9, Phone: (519) 745-5615 Fax: (519) 745-3224

NOTICE OF PROHIBITED DOG DESIGNATION

May 24, 2005

TO: Ms. Mitchell

Your dog, described as a dark brown with white markings Boxer/Labrador mixed breed dog named "Lilly", has been identified as a Pit Bull dog by the Kitchener-Waterloo and North Waterloo Humane Society. The Poundkeeper therefore has reason to believe the dog is a prohibited dog and the dog is hereby designated as a Prohibited Dog. As the owner of this dog, you are required to deliver the prohibited dog within six (6) working days to the Humane Soceity at 250 Riverbend Drive, Kitchener or provide proof satisfactory to the Poundkeeper that the dog has been removed from the City. Please be advised that if delivered to the Humane Society your dog will be euthanized and disposed of in a humane manner.

As the owner of said dog you must ensure the dog is muzzled at all times when it is off your property until this notice becomes a Confirmed Designation and thereafter shall comply with the requirements of Confirmed Designation. This notice will become a Confirmed Designation upon expiry of the time for requesting a hearing if a hearing has not been requested and that if a hearing is requested this notice will become a Confirmed Designation upon the day that Council affirms or ratifies, rescinds, varies or substitutes any decision of the Dog Designation Appeal Committee.

You are entitled to and may request, within five (5) working days of receiving this notice an appeal hearing by the Dog Designation Appeal Committee, whcih may affirm or rescind the Humane Society's deisgnation of your dog or substitute its own designation or its own requirements of the owner of a prohibited dog. Please be advised that any decision of the Dog Designation Appeal Commitee may be substituted, varied, affirmed or rescinded by Council. Such request must be made in writing to:

City Clerk's Department
The Corporation of the City of Kitchener
City Hall, PO Box 1118
200 King Street West
Kitchener, Ontario, N2G 4G7

---------------------
As a side note: Here's the information from the lovely white linen 3 colour business card (nice for people who are supposed to be putting the money toward animals) the woman who sentenced our dog to death or exhile has given:

Sheri Walker
By-Law Officer
Kitchener-Waterloo and North Waterloo Humane Society

Princesss04
May 25th, 2005, 09:19 AM
OH I am so sorry to hear this. Hang in there and keep fighting this. We are all on your side. I would love to see a picture of your baby! :D

Schwinn
May 25th, 2005, 09:24 AM
Your dog, described as a dark brown with white markings Boxer/Labrador mixed breed dog named "Lilly", has been identified as a Pit Bull dog by the Kitchener-Waterloo and North Waterloo Humane Society.

So, what they are saying is that a Boxer/Lab cross is a pit bull...does not compute

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 09:35 AM
Just following up on a few questions. Again, Lily is a year old. I'll get pictures posted in here soon.

The Kitchener By-Law actually gives the "poundkeeper" the authority in retrieving the dog in that they may enter and take the dog. However, it doesn't say anything about the poundkeeper having the authority to stop about 50 to 100 people from covering our front lawn so the poundkeeper can't get near the house or what happens if we chain ourselves to the dog. Sounds rediculous but again, we're planning to be as public about this as we can to show everyone dog owners period will do anything for their family.

We've contacted Alex's office and we're waiting to hear back from her. GREAT LEAD! Talk about a woman who's single handedly trying to change the laws with powerhouse of influence.

Schwinn
May 25th, 2005, 09:51 AM
We've contacted Alex's office and we're waiting to hear back from her. GREAT LEAD! Talk about a woman who's single handedly trying to change the laws with powerhouse of influence.

If you do hear from her, could you do me a favour and let her know that Daisy says thanks! ;)

Copper'sMom
May 25th, 2005, 09:53 AM
We were just officially served with the notice to destroy her or have her moved out the city today.

You have got to be kidding! Jen, I can't believe what you are going through right now! This is absolutely insane. First off, is there anything you can get your neighbour in ***** for?? Anything to make his life a living hell? Do unto neighbours as neighbours do to you!

Your story really opens my eyes to this Pit Bull ban even more. Most of us Pit Bull owners thought this ban will only affect us and make our lives hell, but now I see it's not only affecting us, it's affecting other innocent people who's dog may look like a Pit but isn't a Pit.

Let's all raise some :evil: !

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 10:08 AM
I thought you'd like to know a bit more about the law in Canada. Here's a Federal Point of law, offered to us by the Dog Legislation Council of Canada (the CKC is the Canadian Kennel Club):

"Technically, under the Animal Pedigree Act of Canada, the CKC or registering body for that breed, are the only ones that can legally identify a breed."

Interesting that the province leaves it to a vet and the city leaves it to a poundkeeper when the federal law says neither of them have the legal authority other than the CKC.

lezzpezz
May 25th, 2005, 10:16 AM
Just a quick question.

I noticed that you would like us to address any emails to the KWHS with "Saving Lily The Lab-Cross Pitbull on Birch Street", but you state that numerous professionals have decided unanimously that she is indeed NOT a pit bull cross. Just wondering if "pitbull" should be used here while addressing KWHS, as this just might further their case. Perhaps we should address our letters as such: "Save Lily, The Lab-Cross on Birch Street" , to prevent any unnecessary confusion? It seems to me that if you put "pitbull" in the heading, you are agreeing with them.

heeler's rock!
May 25th, 2005, 10:26 AM
This is horrific!! I can't believe the amount of biased, unfounded, and RIDICULOUS judgements going around from the KWHS as to what Lily is! It is so great that you are going about this fight so level headed and calm. You are a much stronger person than I am! I would have seriously raised some hell and broken a few skulls had this have been my dog. Kudos to you for doing everything in your power to save Lily, and the calmer you stay, the more scared they become I'm sure! :o The fact that you have done your homework and research, are going to the media, and are bombarding them with e-mails and phone calls from concerned people, is truly amazing. I too wonder how in this day and age of acceptance and tolerance, there can be such massive amounts amounts of clear and poignant discrimination towards dogs and the humans that love and protect them! Do you think if I e-mailed the KWHS it would help? I'm in another province so I don't know if they would even care about my opinion. If you think it could help, I can get the word out to friends and bombard them with e-mails from Alberta. Let them know this isn't being tolerated ANYWHERE amongst dog lovers. Let me know, and I'll get right on it. :)

TrishB
May 25th, 2005, 10:33 AM
Hi all,

I lead the committee against BSL for the Rottweiler Club of Canda (RCCBSL). I'm very sorry to have heard this and would also like to offer our support.

You're on the right track with emails - but you'll need to step it up. Phone calls and written letters. Emails are easy to filter and ignore - phone calls and letters are not.

Written letters should also say who else you have carbon copied them to (CC) on the bottom, such as Politicians and Media Personalities. They LOVE to see their names together. ;)

I'd like to commend you Jennifer, for finding the 'more severe' clause in the legislation. The requirement of a veterinarian identifying the dog should override the poundkeeper and their uneducated opinions.

The only thing that I see is that the legislation doesn't come into effect until August 29th for Ontario. So until then - KW's bylaws stand. However, questioning their training / qualifications and how they warrant a higher opinion than veterinarians is beyond me. Also - according to federal law and the Livestock Act only the CKC can identify breeds in Canada (a reason for challenging the Ontario Bill 132). Maybe you can call the CKC to see if you can get someone to identify your dog for you as well.

I wish you all the best - please consider another group of people in your corner.

lezzpezz
May 25th, 2005, 10:42 AM
Oh my goodness! I was so focussed on my email address question that I forgot to praise you for taking the bull by the horns and trying with all your might to protect your beloved pet! My heartfelt sympathy goes out to you and your family and I wish you all the best in this terrible time. Know that MANY many people out here support you 110% and are very proud of what you are doing! Keep it up! You are a beacon for many to follow, as, unfortunately, more cases like this will no doubt have to be dealt with, and YOU are lighting the pathway. Good luck, we are with you :thumbs up

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 11:18 AM
YES PLEASE - no matter where you're from CALL and EMAIL and WRITE the KWHS and Kitchener City Hall. AND YES, thank-you for the suggestion it's probably a bad idea to include "pitbull". The purpose is to make them feel the impending storm and if you could include at least your first name and where you're writing from, it gives them a darn good idea that Lily is being fought for by more than just two people and two adoring cats. When you put enough pressure on people they make mistakes and say public things that they shouldn't. The more pressure put on them the more we're hoping when it goes public they'll look and feel like idiots.

Here's something interesting for you that just happened. The KWHS told us that a member of the CKC sits on the Appeal Board. We called the CKC and they said "We do not assess any dog other than qualified breeds and therefore cannot determine if a dog is a pitbull". That sounds ominous but, the Pitbull is not a recognized breed in Canada and therefore, there is NO qualified person or body in Ontario who can say our dog or any dog for that matter in Ontario is a Pitbull despite the KWHS saying they are qualified. The CKC has nicely given us a letter that says just that .. that begs the question.. If the only legal authority that may determine breeds says "Pitbull is not a breed in Canada" then how can the pitbull "be" in Canada? and how can any dog in Canada be a pitbull?

We're arranging for an independent breeder who was recommended by the CKC and is also a show judge for Staffordshire Terriers, and what the CKC considers the only person in Ontario who can properly idenify breeds associated with Staffordshire Terriers to have an independent assessment of Lily done prior to submitting our appeal. What we're going for here is having yet another official and well respected official say that it can not be determined that Lily is a pitbull.

As for my calmness in all of this.. the beauty of writing.. Trust me, we're working our way through these issues, having good cry sessions in between then playing with Lily until her never-ending waggy tail has us laughing so hard we have the strength to keep pushing.

Dog Dancer
May 25th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Okay, I live in Vancouver, but have spent a lot of time in KW and really feel for you (and all the other affected owners) Jen. I will be sending an e-mail per your request to the KWHS on this issue. I understand you not wanting to pull the trump card by going to the Mayor, but wouldn't that give you even more amunition in the fight if they turned the issue over for you - would it not set an example that there is some flexibility? I have a question relating to this breed by-law issue though. My boss recently adopted an American Bull Dog from the SPCA out here. She's so sweet. I know the difference basically between this breed and a pitt, although everyone who see's her says "oh you got a pitt". With these By-laws, does the American Bull Dog fall under those types of legislations? Just curious. So far it's not a huge issue here, although there's always talk about it. Another oddity with his adopting this dog, one SPCA would not adopt him a lab X they had because he has an eleven year old son and they didn't think the child could handle the lab. Then a different SPCA adopts him this American Bull Dog who is solid muscle and just over a year old. Go figure huh! People assume the SPCA is the end all and really they are not always...

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 12:31 PM
What I can determine is that boxer should have be licensed as the breed specified by the SPCA. Also, and this may scare a few people in Ontario, the KW by-law, when it went into effect revoked all licenses for all dogs that were registered truthfully as pitbulls. If you've done this and you live in Ontario, find a way to get your dog registered as another breed, you can take the dog to another city where a family or friend live and have them register the dog there, then transfer the license back to where you live, or if it happens in your city they come after you first.

Anyone out there who has a dog who even remotely looks like pitbull, don't hesitate. If you can get that dog identified and licensed as any other breed do it now. At the very least you'll buy yourself some time before they come looking for you.

It's a sad day when the law makes you lie and makes you purposely do illegal things in order to save lives. This isn't the Canada , the Ontario, or the Kitchener I remember as a kid.

After speaking with legal and several organizations, yes, if we pull the "our company is leaving if our dog leaves" this horrible nightmare might just stop and everyone can go back to their normal lives. But I'll tell you, it won't stop for the people who can't do that. I can't help but to think of an 80 year old widow who picks up a lovely little dog for a companion and then one day receives one of those notices. She's not on-line, she has a restricted income, her friends are passed or in another city, she doesn't have the luxery of knowing where to look for the law or how to understand it, .. her only action would be to give up her companion and watch another loved one die. It's for her, that whatever Sam and I do for Lily has to be for everyone who has a Lily out there. And consider the bigger picture - Obviously if the KWHS are not doing anything about any of the other dog laws in town other than enforcing the bitpull by-law, there's an agenda.

The woman who served us with the notice this morning said, when we questioned her about why NONE of the other by-laws regarding dogs in this city are being enforced, agreed with us and said "There's not enough manpower" So you know there's an agenda which obviously has something to do with the Ontario Agenda. Maybe they think, by killing our dogs we'll be less opposed to a law that just muzzles, restrains, chips, monitors and demands s/n. But we're smarter than that.

I just want to thank you all again so much. The letters that are going to the KWHS and the City of Kitchener are just overwhelming us. It is because of all of you and Lily's big brown eyes that we're continuing to keep the fire burning. There are no words to say how very grateful we are for all of you.

Loki
May 25th, 2005, 12:32 PM
Jen, I'm so sorry to hear about your situation.

I don't know if this is of any use to you, but there was a Dr. Gary Goerée, from
The ANIMAL HOSPITAL OF KITCHENER-WATERLOO, that testified against bill 132 at the public hearings for the Ontario law. He sat on the dangerous dog and pitbull appeal comittees in KW.

Here is a link to that days testimony:
http://www.ontla.on.ca/hansard/committee_debates/38_parl/session1/legassembly/M010.htm

raingirl
May 25th, 2005, 12:44 PM
Have you thought about moving the dog out of KW area in the meantime while you fight the law, or at least have someone as a backup to take the dog in case they come for it without notice?

I kinda know how you feel. The law is so stupid. I have an english bulldog, which is obviously not a pitbull, but because he is a rescue dog, there is no *real* way to proove he is an english bulldog (despite the fact that he looks like one!). After the new law for all Ontario is in place, all someone needs to do is complain that my dog is a pitbull, and they can take him away and I would need to prove he is not.

I run a store online at cafepress. Here is the link.

www.cafepress.com/luv_a_bull

It's fairly new, been up for a few months. I design the logos and such and all of my proceeds are donated to www.bannedaid.com. I don't know what the bill/law name is in the KW area, but if you provide me with more info, or if there is something you want on a tshirt etc ("help save Lily and fight the KW law/ban", I can make something up for you to buy to help support your cause... Just post it here or let me know by private message. If you send me a pic of her, i can design something with her pic on it.

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 01:20 PM
We've put up this link to Dr Gary Goeree's testimony. Please have a read to get a flavour for what is going on in Kitchener. It will make you furious!!!! It's also, what were facing next.

Here's the Link: http://www.2gogroup.com/savelily/drygarygoeree.html and soon http://www.2gogroup.com/savelily will have the whole story posted as well as pictures of Lily.

Again, we are making arrangements to have Lily moved out of Kitchener. We have been told that the Appeals Board only sits once a month. So our appeal trial date will more than likely be June 27th. We are allowed to keep our dog with us during the appeal process. We're not going to upset or move Lily out as long as we can.

LL1
May 25th, 2005, 01:42 PM
You could get a PEN from CKC, that might help,and would not hurt.
http://goto-enter.com/PEN.pdf

I have an english bulldog, which is obviously not a pitbull, but because he is a rescue dog, there is no *real* way to proove he is an english bulldog (despite the fact that he looks like one!). After the new law for all Ontario is in place, all someone needs to do is complain that my dog is a pitbull, and they can take him away and I would need to prove he is not.

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Below is the email response we got back from the KWHS. And Below that our response.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jamie LaFlamme [mailto:info@kwhumane.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:49 PM
To: 2 Go Group - Admin
Subject: Fw: Complaint - Please Respond

I have read your email and looked at the pictures and I feel that I must respond, and I hope you will agree with my position. At least you will understand the process and history of how the designation works in Kitchener and Waterloo.

The City pit bill bylaw was passed in 1996 and came in to effect in 1997.

Our Officers at the Shelter have over 100 yrs. of collective experience to draw on in the performance of their duties. I myself am a former Regional Inspector for the OSPCA and have investigated the sickening sport of dogfighting. I am also the owner of two Labrador Retrievers, the supposed breed of the dog in question.


We do not take the responsibility of designating a dog lightly. Our job is to designate any animal that would look similar to the dog in question, and make the person aware of the ability to appeal the designation before the Animal Review Committee at the respective City Hall (Kitchener or Waterloo); which I believe we did. I would suggest you contact www.city.kitchener.on.ca . That is really the extent of our involvement with the designation. The Committee would then make a ruling one way or another.


I believe a lot of confusion comes from the new Provincial Statue that will come into effect on August 29, 2005. Even the proposed new law and its restrictions are not that far removed from the wishes of any Animal Welfare Organization which are: Spay/Neuter your pet; make sure your dog is in control of an adult when outside (all dogs should be leashed when outside and off their property unless in one of the two leash free dog parks in the Twin Cities); make sure your dog has a current Municipal licence affixed to its collar; and an identification Microchip which helps identify stray dogs, as tags and collars can easily come off. No where does the proposed BSL say to kill anything but rather have the animal grandfathered and get the animal registared. Unfortunatly our city by-law will not allow certain breeds of dogs and mixed breeds to reside in the city limits of Kitchener or Waterloo.



Good Luck

Ward McAlister

K-W Humane Society

----------------------------------------------------------
Here's our response:

Dear Ward;

Thank-you for your reply.

First, the breed of the dog in question is Lab/Boxer if you had read your own inspectors report. As far as taking your responsibilities lightly you may want to stop your by-law people from laughing, playing with our dog and smiling while they give us her death warrant.

Have you seen the testimony of Dr. Gary Goeree and what he said about what is going on in Kitchener? I’m sure you’re familiar with him. It would appear that his testimony contradicts with what you just stated.

You may want to go here: http://www.2gogroup.com/savelily/drygarygoeree.html and carefully read what he has to say about the so-called expertise of this city.

Our dog doesn’t have until August 29th. Our dog as the next 5 days for us to make an appeal and then hopefully on June 27th, 2 months and 2 days before the other legislation is enacted if we lose our dog has to die or get out of town. Can you really live with this???

You’re killing innocent dogs – You’re taking innocent lives when YOUR supposed to be SAVING THEM. When the Nazi’s said kill the Jews was it right for the Nazi soldiers to kill them? You're doing the same thing here.

We spoke with the CKC today who said, which we got in writing, that NOBODY in Canada has the legal right to judge a breed of dog other than them and that the pitbull is not a recognized breed in Canada and THEREFORE there are NO pitbulls in Canada. You, Sir, are not certified to judge no matter what a backward money padded city council has to say.

If you know a law is wrong and you do nothing about it and act to enforce it even though it was based on lies, the death of every happy kind sweet adorable dog is on your head personally every second you let it continue. You alone can stop this and you do nothing. I feel nothing but shame for you and shame that in this day and age there are people who have no morals or ethics whatsoever.

We are going as public as we can with this. We have many organizations involved and this isn’t going to rest even if we save Lily from people like you. It won’t stop until somebody grows a conscience.

It stops WITH YOU.

Sam & Jennifer Mitchell

Schwinn
May 25th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Our Officers at the Shelter have over 100 yrs. of collective experience to draw on in the performance of their duties.

So if they have 15 officers, that's just over 6 and a half years each. Well, have at it then!

I am also the owner of two Labrador Retrievers, the supposed breed of the dog in question.

He's also the owner of an ass, but he doesn't know that from a hole in the ground.


I like your responding letter, by the way.

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 03:13 PM
Too funny Schwin...it's nice to laugh!!

Here's what recently we sent the idiot backed by 100 years of experience (cough )

Ward;

Here’s a link to another BOXER/LAB since you are unfamiliar with the breed. You think now you’re collective 100 years of experience might be signing the death warrant on the WRONG DOGS??? Other than our dog being chocolate THIS dog is IDENTICAL to ours.

http://dogoftheday.com/archive/2004/September/08.html

We’d like your response to this and the immediate reversal of our dogs notice.

Sam and Jennifer Mitchell

JessXx
May 25th, 2005, 03:24 PM
:sorry:
Thats sad.
It doesn't make any sense why people won't leave perfectly nice dogs alone.
I just hate it. :mad:
Good-luck

JessXx
May 25th, 2005, 03:40 PM
I read the letters& replies.
This is just insane. I read up on this and you are right...
I dont understand why someone would pass a by-law like this.
AND if your dog isn't a pit-bull then why is this going on...
and if a pit-bull is not a recognized breed in Canada, then why
are they trying to kill your 'pit-bull'? I hope it all goes well... :(

JenSteele
May 25th, 2005, 03:53 PM
-----Original Message-----
From: Jamie LaFlamme [mailto:info@kwhumane.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:37 PM
To: 2 Go Group - Admin
Subject: Fw: Complaint - Please Respond

I was reading your reply and would have continued to do so until you mentioned the Nazi's and the comparison. That's when I turned it off. If you wish to continue this discussion you should look at your choice of euphemisms and choose them more carefully. You also should be ashamed of yourself for mentioning the word Nazi, I have good friends who have had relatives fall at the hands of the Nazis, and they would be appalled at your comments.

Maybe you should direct your emails to the City from now on.

Thank You

Ward McAlister

---------------------------

Our response........

I’m posting your responses to all of the people who are going to fight against what you’re doing. It is you who may wish to choose your words more carefully. Taking the time to lecture us instead of making sure you didn’t make a mistake is wasting time in SAVING OUR DOGS LIFE if that’s what you people still do.

Maybe you should get educated on how to identify dogs and stop condemning harmless dogs.

I’m Jewish Mr. Ward, and I’ll have you know that blindly following something because you were told without a conscience is Nazi, and I’m not the only one in this town, province or country who feels that’s exactly the mentality of the Humane Society clicking their heals and following this. “I’m only following orders” is what came out of your by-law enforcer today. Doesn’t get any more Nazi than that.

Jennifer Mitchell

CyberKitten
May 25th, 2005, 03:57 PM
I just find this all so sad!! NB at least rejected this route tho certain counties in NS are prohibiting certain dog breeds. Imho, usually when accidents occur especially involving children (and I know ALL too well how emtional that is), it is b/c the child was left alone with the dog. So why arn't the parents called into question for child endangerment? It's not the dog's fault!

I do realize that comment is being preached to the converted. It seems to me that legally, this issue is so far from over!! It's yet to even go before the Supreme Court (and it WILL!) so how can these piddly little officious municipal lackies tell you to destroy an animal that you love? That's horrendous! Don't yell at me for not comparing it to the Halocaust (I think that is a biot extreme - speaking as an Irish person whose bf's grandparents were murdered by the Nazis) - think that's a bit much. The Halocaust victims had no courts available and that I think is still available as well as is public opinion, tourism dollars, your own business, supporters.

If I lived in Ontario, I would be working to make sure those opportunistic politicians who voted for this are ousted!

Anyway, my thoughts are with you!! I hope you win your case. Re something else you said, how could they arrest you if you move? I don't understand that.

JessXx
May 25th, 2005, 04:06 PM
-----Original Message-----
From: Jamie LaFlamme [mailto:info@kwhumane.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:37 PM
To: 2 Go Group - Admin
Subject: Fw: Complaint - Please Respond

I was reading your reply and would have continued to do so until you mentioned the Nazi's and the comparison. That's when I turned it off. If you wish to continue this discussion you should look at your choice of euphemisms and choose them more carefully. You also should be ashamed of yourself for mentioning the word Nazi, I have good friends who have had relatives fall at the hands of the Nazis, and they would be appalled at your comments.

Maybe you should direct your emails to the City from now on.

Thank You

Ward McAlister

---------------------------

Our response........

I’m posting your responses to all of the people who are going to fight against what you’re doing. It is you who may wish to choose your words more carefully. Taking the time to lecture us instead of making sure you didn’t make a mistake is wasting time in SAVING OUR DOGS LIFE if that’s what you people still do.

Maybe you should get educated on how to identify dogs and stop condemning harmless dogs.

I’m Jewish Mr. Ward, and I’ll have you know that blindly following something because you were told without a conscience is Nazi, and I’m not the only one in this town, province or country who feels that’s exactly the mentality of the Humane Society clicking their heals and following this. “I’m only following orders” is what came out of your by-law enforcer today. Doesn’t get any more Nazi than that.

Jennifer Mitchell

I would like to see the responce to that :thumbs up good job.
What an uneducated... person. He needs to look his facts up more carefully. I think you worded yourself very well, and I dont understand his... being an ass-hole.
I can't comment further because I may offend too many people. I hope it gets better... feel free to chat with me whenever. Good-luck

babyrocky1
May 25th, 2005, 05:57 PM
Wow, Ive been off the board for a few days so Ive just caught up to your posts, I can only repeat the words of encouragement from everyone else. Im glad you have been in touch with Advocates for the underdog, as they are part of Banned Aid and are the organizations that we have been supporting. I am so sorry you are going through all of this and it certainly is giving us a glimpse of what may be instore for all of us come August 29th! It is great that you are taking such a strong stand against this inhumne and anti-democratic law. Best of luck ,we are all behind you and we will help with whatever we can.
By the way Toronto alleged pittie owners, when I spoke to the manager for the Toronto pounds, she told me that no matter what breed I say, or my vet says, Rocky is, if they think he looks like a pit bull that is what they will regiser him as. On his vet records hes an American bulldog X. I thought that would give me options when the time came to register him, but now I dont want to take any chances, its safer to have him registered as a "pit bull"
incase a scenario like this were to happen. On the other hand, Im hoping that because the designation is the "pound keepers" and not mine, I can say that I never agreed, it was thier hopefully "illegal determination"

JenSteele
May 26th, 2005, 11:20 AM
Hi Everyone. Sorry we haven't been updating you. We're in the middle of erecting a site for the "Lily-Legistlation" and we have our first on-camera interview with CKCO TV in Kitchener today. Thanks to all of your leads, we may just change this for everyone. I'll post again this evening after the interview and after we've had a few more meetings.

Thank-you again for helping us have the strength to do this

Sam & Jen

lezzpezz
May 26th, 2005, 11:27 AM
YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!!! :crazy:

Copper'sMom
May 26th, 2005, 11:29 AM
Hi Everyone. Sorry we haven't been updating you. We're in the middle of erecting a site for the "Lily-Legistlation" and we have our first on-camera interview with CKCO TV in Kitchener today. Thanks to all of your leads, we may just change this for everyone. I'll post again this evening after the interview and after we've had a few more meetings.

Thank-you again for helping us have the strength to do this

Sam & Jen

No Jen, THANK YOU!!!! Thank-you for having the courage to put up a good fight. You will be a part of history when all this is done and over with. And all dog-owners will have you to thank for standing up and challenging a law against dogs of any breed. :grouphug: THANK-YOU!

And good luck with your interview!

nymph
May 26th, 2005, 11:38 AM
THANK YOU Jen! I've been following this thread since the beginning and am so glad to see that you are not backing down. My only suggestion is to stop dealing with the KWHS, in particular with Mr. McAlister, since he doesn't seem to understand the gravity of the issue: a dog's life is at stake!

I wish you good luck and we are all behind you on this! You go girl!

JenSteele
May 26th, 2005, 12:16 PM
This is where we'll be posting the Lily site. www.savinglily.com Hopefully it will be up soon.

Sam - Sandra is doing the interview with CKCO. We're hoping that it won't be a case of yet another anti-pitbull story that comes out of this area.

Thanks!
Jen

JessXx
May 26th, 2005, 12:23 PM
aww... you are doing so well. This is amazing... the effort. I'm with you on this one. GOOD LUCK! :thumbs up

Luvmypit
May 26th, 2005, 12:55 PM
I just got into this thread and I am appaled but also incouraged.
I applaud you in your thinking and the fact that your exausting all avenues and not leaving a stone unturned.
This can't be considered the right thing to do. It just cant!
That guys response obviously using your nazi reference as a scapegoat not to answer. I would encourage you not to mention that as when the media gets a hold of that they focus on that and nothing else. One lady mentioned this during the hearings and instead of reporting on the hearings and our overwhelming evidence agaisnt this ban they debated the use of a nazi reference. I will be writing to this fool also and calling if I can....


I feel so bad for you! I really am hurting just thinking about it. I encourage to do anything you can. ANYTHING! Put 50 people on the lawn... If the media holds on to this story like we do then I am sure people will see your passion and you will gain some more support. Were here with you just let us know who to call, who to email and who to egg.....oh were not doing that? Ok then...
But seriously I have a feeling you may just be the face we need for this.... no pressure ok? One case overturned is one case closer to denouncing these bylaws.
I really hate Canada for this. I hate the majority of people who think this is a viable solution. .... Even if you were terrified and believed all the hype I still dont understand how death is a solution.... How people could feel ok with supporting this.
I wonder what would happen if all spca's and city pounds just refused to do the politicians dirty work?




As for you JEn, YOU ROCK! This is gonna be hard for you but soooo worth it. You believe in something and your taking it to the airways... Your doing all you can. I wish more owners where more like you and then I think if they recieved this kind of stink from everyone who got a death warrant then I believe they would have no choice but to get rid of this peice of crap bylaw.
Were with you ... I hope you know you have friends at pets.ca!

Good luck! If this if were the case with my dog I think I literally would chain myself to him.... I am just that nuts about him!

Lily is very very very very lucky to have you!!!!

lezzpezz
May 26th, 2005, 01:10 PM
I live in London Ontario and on June 5,2005, the London Humane Society is holding its' annual Bark In The Park fundraiser, where 100's if not 1000's of dogs and people will be in attendance. Is there some sort of petition we can get going or some sort of flyer, sticker, whatever that I can be handing out or getting people to sign to assist you with your situation? I am a on the executive of the London Dog Owners' Association and we will have a booth there that day. Perhaps I can have a petition that you have designed and worded there, if my group will allow, and garner a pile of signatures for you and mail them on to the recipient that would be the best candidate to recieve such documents. Just a thought....but there is strength in numbers and this most certainly affects ALL dog owners, as you are now too well aware. If you or anyone out there thinks that this might be a good idea, let me know and co-ordinate it and it will be done! :thumbs up

chico2
May 26th, 2005, 01:40 PM
Lezzerpezzer,that sounds like a great idea!!
I am so proud of everyone,especially Jennifer Mitchell...people power will hopefully save Lilys and all other dogs lives :thumbs up

JenSteele
May 26th, 2005, 01:43 PM
Yes please please do this. Here's the wording we sent to Mr. Bryant:

Save our Dog and lives of 100s of 1000s of innocent animals by enacting the:

Lily-Legislation that calls for the immediate stop of Kitchener-Waterloo’s by-law and Windsor’s by-law, requiring the burden of proof to be upon the accuser, as it is for humans in this Country, and requiring a vicious act from a dog before it can be considered a menace to society.

Stop this before this becomes the blackest mark on Canadians in the new millennium.

Please include the website www.savinglily.com and the email info@savinglily.com as well.

Thank-you for joining us in this fight.

greaterdane
May 26th, 2005, 01:55 PM
Jen, I just want to commend you for what you are doing. Your email back to the KWHS was awesome. Way to go! I will help as much as possible.

lezzpezz
May 26th, 2005, 01:57 PM
My pleasure. Consider it done. I will speak with the Prez of my group and get the OK to proceed. I do not see a problem with having a petition with an accompanying placard on our table. Just need to put the bug in her ear and I am sure this will be no problemo.

Shamrock
May 26th, 2005, 02:27 PM
That is a wonderful and helpful idea Lezzerpezzer, kudos to you.
Kudos to you all for helping to fight this fight, and to change this draconian legislation.

You are a true inspiration, Jen!
When a person, or group of people, stands up to fight against such appalling persecution, we all benefit and are strengthened.
The line is drawn in the sand ...

Good luck to you and Lily - will be following your campaign closely

JenSteele
May 26th, 2005, 02:30 PM
Wonderful thank-you!

If everyone who is the email mood could send an email to:

mbryant.mpp@liberal.ola.org

The is the man who is responsible for trying to put the BSL through in Ontario, and it is the provincial government who can stop or stay a municpal law. Only when the province formally refuses will we move to the Federal government.

Please Subject your email: Please envoke the Lily Legislation

Please address him as Mr. Bryant or the The Honerable Mr Michael Bryant

Please please be curtious, and level headed.

Please use this phrasing:

Save Lily and lives of 100s of 1000s of innocent animals by enacting the:

Lily-Legislation that calls for the immediate stop of Kitchener-Waterloo’s BSL by-law and Windsor’s BSL by-law, requiring the burden of proof to be upon the accuser, as it is for humans in this Country, and requiring a vicious act from a dog before it can be considered a menace to society.

Stop this before this becomes the blackest mark on Canadians in the new millennium.


Thank-you so much!

lezzpezz
May 26th, 2005, 02:40 PM
ver batim, as requested. Keep 'em going, folks!! :love:

Shamrock
May 26th, 2005, 02:56 PM
Sent verbatim!
Couldnt bring myself to use the word "honorable".. "Mr Bryant" is all he gets from me.
Please let us know if there is anything else we can do to help.

lezzpezz
May 26th, 2005, 03:04 PM
FYI...I have emailed the Prez of the LDOA and requested permission to post petition, stickers, flyers, poster or anything to aid in Lily and her family's plight. It occurs to me that the event I am participating in is a Humane Society event and the issue at hand is also involving a Humane Society, and I would not to cause a conflict. I want it looked at as a "dog" issue, an "inhumane" issue and NOT a way to slam the Humane Society. Mind you, the KWHS needs a good slamming, but I don't want to pizz of the London HS in any way. Do you see a possible dilemma or do you feel it is safe to proceed if I get my groups' blessing? Please, any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciate.

chico2
May 26th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Jen,I do not think anyone here holds any hope that a Pit-Bull hater like M.Bryant would ever be of much help,but then again this might be a chance for him to redeem himself,although the BSL-legislation he advocated in Ontario is not quiet as inhumane as K-W,it's bad enough,especially for little pit-puppies born after August and I believe even now.
We all wrote him e-mails when BSL was about to become law,but to no avail,but another e-mail certainly does not hurt.

levimh
May 26th, 2005, 03:34 PM
I wonder what would happen if the daughter/son of one of these politicians wanted a "pit bull" or if they had owned one in the beginning. I bet things might've been different.

Dog Dancer
May 26th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Good luck Jen, keep it up. Wasn't it on this board that I read recently about the laws they've enacted in Italy that require people to walk their dogs three times a day, no tail docking, etc.? What a difference huh!!! Kinda makes ya all warm and fuzzy to be a Canadian! Anyhow, Lezzerpezzer I can't see why or how the Humane Society should take issue with your petition. Freedom of speech and all that too you know. If it's wrong it's just plain wrong. Go for it.

lezzpezz
May 26th, 2005, 03:45 PM
Thanks Dog Dancer. I want to make waves but not the wrong kind of waves. Our HS here is fantastic! And Lily sure needs our help! I will press on.....

JenSteele
May 26th, 2005, 05:00 PM
I have no doubt that the London Humane Society is a fine organization. I used to think that about the KWHS until they forgot what their mission is. We are in no way bashing the Human Society as an Organization, but just one chapter in Kitchener. Don't hate the group because one person is an idiot.

We're not talking about the HS as a whole, we're talking about the KWHS. The Toronto Humane Society is an organization that has publicly spoke out against the BSL and absolutely deserves your support, your money, and anything else you can do for them. The Kitchener-Waterloo Humane Society on the other hand should have it's funding revoked until they understand that their mission is not to assist in the death of innocent animals who already have a home.

In other news....

We have a commercial that has been done pro-bono by the florida voice talent artist Paul J Warwick - www.pauljwarwick.com .. If you would like to hear this commercial or you would like to download it and try to talk radio stations into playing it... this is the link http://www.savinglily.com/savinglily.mp3

There is also a banner - http://www.savinglily.com/savelily.jpg to use on websites.


Thank you again for all the warm comments and carrying.

greaterdane
May 26th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Great commercial!

Loki
May 26th, 2005, 05:25 PM
If you are going to send emails to Bryant - it would probably be a good idea to send a cc to the opposition party. I think Joe Tascona is the critic to the AG (not 100% sure).

That way Bryant can't deny recieving them - Or worse, just count them, and then claim that they are letters of support for his ban.

JenSteele
May 26th, 2005, 05:54 PM
The CKCO interview has aired. While they let Sandra get her point across about Lily being guilty before being proven innocent they cut out ALL of the proof she offered about what the Vet Medical Association said, what the CKC said, and what Dr Gary Goeree offered us for information. They also let the City Council of Kitchener lead people to believe that they're fine because they have a CKC member on the appeal board, even though the CKC themselves said nobody in Canada is qualified to determine what a pitbull is.

CKCO interviewed Sandra for an hour and give her about 10 seconds of clips. They cut out the website address and every thing about the Lily Legislation and Sandra saying the BIGGER issue is that these by-laws are being enforced by untrained people and that BSL is NOT going to save people from dog bites leash laws will. What looked really bad, in our favour, the Humane Society declined any comment. Interesting huh?

We'll have the CKCO interview posted on the website by tomorrow for what it's worth. In a city where both the newspaper and the television station are responsible for only reporting bitpull related attacks, you can't be too surprised.

What they did put in which we were very pleased with but unfortunity it got cut off in the panic to record it, the newscaster said "A local woman is going to move her family and her business out of Kitchener before she'll put her dog down"

There is an interview going on, on the Roy Green show AM 900 CHML Hamilton at 10:05 tomorrow morning ( listen live link http://www.900chml.com/ ) with Stever Barker of the DLCC who will be bring Lily's story to the Hamilton/Burlington area.

By the way, Brantford Ontario City Council, just passed similar legislation today. If you have a dog that even remotely resembles a pitbull, go to ANOTHER sympathtic city NOW and have your dog registered under whatever you can get that city to put down on the license by a friend or family. Do what we should have done the first time somebody said "Does that dog have some pit in her?"

For the bitpull owners, get the heck out of dodge now.

JenSteele
May 26th, 2005, 06:17 PM
YES YES you're right!! Write the opposition at the same time!

Also, by law, government officials are required to respond to your letters an emails. If they do not, complain or keep sending with a response request.

BoxerRescueMTL - your inbox is full! PLEASE send a banner for your company that we can post under "People Saving Lily" to jen@2gogroup.com .

happycats
May 26th, 2005, 06:22 PM
I believe in order to get an audience to sympathize with your plight, you have to show the emotional side of this fight. This dog who "may" look like a pit bull is a loving and valuable member of your family, and if there are children involved, Lily is their best friend, and maybe their only friend!
And to rip Lily away from her family and destroy her would be very detrimental to your family, and will have a life long phycilogical (sp) effect on a young impressionable child!! How can this family especially the child ever respect or feel proud of the government or this country, if they come in and kill it's family member??!!! How will this child grow up to be a upstanding law abiding citizen, when this childs government rips this childs heart out by killing his best friend!!

I may be getting carried away, but maybe someone may want to talk to a child phycologist to find out what effect something like this would have on a child (taking the childs dog and killing it). I believe the public would listen if they knew this could have an adverse emotional effect on a child!

babyrocky1
May 26th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Hey everyone dont forget to cc Peter Kormos as well or Howard Hampton! Also Emails are good but letters carry more weight. I dont know how much good any communication with Bryant will be, well actually I do know but are you thinking that this is a necessary step in the process Jen? The fact that innocent dogs and their familys are already suffering may be enough to get some debate going in the house again but Bryant hates pit bulls or dogs that look like pit bulls. He points to citys with bans as good examples! Im happy to do it but I don't understand the strategey. I just flipped back to your post Happy Cats, excellent Idea, the child psychologist!

LittleLoves
May 26th, 2005, 08:31 PM
:sorry: I can't believe this is happening! :mad:

I sent an email to that Micheal Bryant guy, but I'm in New Brunswick, does it matter? Would have sent an email to the opposition along with it but I don't know who that would be.

Jen, you ARE a hero. :grouphug:

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Writing Bryant shows the number of people who have tried to get him to see the other side and he just ignored him. Writing the others, will definitely bring it forward. But yes to hand write him, and the others is even better. Sorry, I'm new to this and learning as I go.

Having proof that he's refusing to listen to the issues is a good thing. It makes him look publicly like he has an agenda brewing instead of knowing the issue.

Alex Pierson CityTV has been officially banned from Bryants office since she tricked him into picking a pitbull out of a lineup of dogs.. he was coached already on the infamous pitbull line up and picked #15 like he was told to do. Alex knew he was coached and said "That would be the right one if this was the same sheet you were coached on but we moved all the pictures around" and challanged him to find the pitbull. This was all on Camera. So, she has a real nasty on over this BSL issue and for Bryant. The rep from the DLCC said she'll be contacting us shortly.

Doctor Gary Goeree said he's pitbulled out. He talked to us for over an hour and gave us a lot of coaching for how to beat the pannel, especially the person posing as a CKC member. We'll be posting all that on the savinglily.com website. The poor man has been through years of fighting this and being "summoned" to the Death Pannel 3 times. His spirit is completely broken.

The hacked up cut bad editing report that CKCO TV in Kitchener put out is here... http://www.savinglily.com/ckcointerview.rm It's a Real Audio File. That's Sandra on there. I was busy with the webmasters and arranging more interviews.

Sandra did her best to get the facts across unfortunately like I said they edited the hell out of the interview with her. Notice too, for a little chuckle, the clip they choose to show of Lily "sitting" in front of Sandra... it's a clip of our dog peeing. They keep the peeing in and the facts out. Welcome to Kitchener. Have to love dealing with professionals eh? But doesn't Lily play a nice game of fetch? At one point she tried to give the ball to the camera man.

We're all really exhausted. The webmasters are doing a wonderful job on the site and have been working around the clock side by side with us. They just finished another series of photos of Lily. tronserver.com has donated the server and all of the bandwidth we require. They gave it to us until the entire legislation has been changed and said we could keep running it to assist people around the world who are facing the same issues. tronserver.com are not even in Canada.. they're in California. Amazing.

Sandra has a meeting with a printing company tomorrow who have volunteered to make lawn signs with Lily's face on it and the website address. Hopefully that will go well.

A bunch of our neighbours came over today after seeing Sandra on the news and offered their support. They had an impromptu pot-luck and forced us to sit down and eat... completely didn't realize it's been over 48 hours since I had a 1/2 a bagel with cream cheese.

They've all vowed to show up on Lily's trial date which should be June 27th. Could everyone please spread the word to anyone who can make it on that day. It's not a protest, it's just happens to be a BUNCH of people walking their dogs at the same time and taking a nice peaceful break at City Hall by the fountain talking about legislation and hopefully with "Get Your Bark On about BSL" t-shirts which we're still working on getting donated or cheap. A small warning, if you have a pitbull the city of kitchener may lock it up. Remember the dog isn't the "protestor" so we ask that you don't risk your dog going through any tradgedy and bring a tonne of water and a raincoat, weather here goes either way :)

PLEASE let us know by emailing info@savinglily.com

After speaking with everyone who works with us, everyone has agreed to shut our business down and work non stop on this. Everyone said if the Mayor doesn't care that an entire business is going to move out of the city, then we're all going to save these dogs.

That's all I have for today.. I'm sure there will be more tomorrow. Thank-you all again soooooooooooooooo much, with every comment and suggestion you make you know in your heart that your helping to save lives.

Jen

chico2
May 27th, 2005, 06:43 AM
Jen,I eagerly watched CKOC news,but the"interview"was very short,anybody seeing it would definetly not get the whole tragic story.
It was funny that Lily decided to pee and they showed it :D she was just trying to tell them how she feels about them.
The Rep from the K-W HS said it's now up to the City..which surprises me,would not HS fight for an animals life,as was the case of Bandit the Lab/PitX(who had attacked a child).I believe Bandit is still at the Toronto HS.
I realize each HS have their own agenda,but I also believe they could refuse to euthanize..and fight this by-law if they had the animals welfare as their priority.
Could the OSPCA help?

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 08:16 AM
We contacted the OSPCA who have spoken out against the legislation. They don't intervene with HS chapters unless they've violated the law. Now the KWHS has been investigated twise by the OSPCA and have been fined at least once.

Here's an interesting inside fact we found out yesterday somewhat annonymously. Ward McAlister was told if he ever mentions the word bitpull in a council meeting again he would be banned from council meetings and if he pressed the issue of BSL not being past, he may resign. We were told this by sympathic council people who are also in fear of their jobs if they speak out. We were also told that anyone attempting to raise any issue about the pitbull ban in Kitchener at a public council meeting will be escorted out of the meeting. Essentially the Corporation of the City of Kitchener has the abililty to silence the Humane Society, silence the Vetranarians, silence their own councilmen and silence the media.

Berry Vrbanovic, the councilman who spoke in the CKCO interview was parimount in having the BSL legislation past in Kitchener. It is interesting to me that the city would let him speak when he's a primary target, unless somebody is setting him up to fall. Here's the point of law we're searching for now. We believe that the goverment has a legal responsibility that they must fully disclose all information and fully disclose if any previous information supplied for legislation was false. I'm told it's a criminal offence if they don't.

Copper'sMom
May 27th, 2005, 09:07 AM
Jen, I saw the interview on the news too and I was quite disappointed on how they reported it. It certainly didn't tell the whole story!

Schwinn
May 27th, 2005, 09:08 AM
You definitely want to pass this info on to any groups that are helping you. I believe both the DLCC and Advocates for the Underdog have been working with lawyers, so they will be able to tell you how to proceed with this information. Also, make sure you mention it to Alex when you talk to her. She probably won't be able to report it as it is heresay, but she could certainly make some people feel uncomfortable questioning them about it. You're doing awesome. Things sound like they are going well (considering), and I hope is only encouraging you more. I know I'm feeling pumped just reading about it!

canine14
May 27th, 2005, 09:11 AM
Jen/Sandra,

Your girl is one lucky dog to have such a devoted, loving human like you. I don't care what breed a dog is; they have to be evaluated individually. I just met a nasty Sheltie. Amazing how in today's day and age we can stilll find targets for our stupidity and we can still stereotype ... only now it's animals. Argh.

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 09:31 AM
The Radio interview has been reschedule to 11:05 AM today.

Copper'sMom
May 27th, 2005, 09:34 AM
The Radio interview has been reschedule to 11:05 AM today.

Thanks! I tuned in but didn't hear anything!

Copper'sMom
May 27th, 2005, 10:30 AM
Anyone listening?? There will be another segment next week!! These guys(Steve Barker and i forget the other guy) she's talking to sure like to beat around the bush! Why can't people just give a staight answer??

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 01:51 PM
Here is a draft letter for you. PLEASE sign it.


The Honorable Michael Bryant MPP
803 St. Clair Avenue W,
Toronto, ON, M6C 1B9

Dear Sir,

We beseech you as the Attorney General of the Province of Ontario, Canada to enact emergency legislation that will immediately force an injunction to stop all Breed Specific Legislation across municipalities, in specific, The City of Kitchener, Ontario, Canada, The City of Windsor, Ontario, Canada, and the City of Brantford, Ontario, Canada due to the following facts and points of law:

1. To date, personnel that have been contacted who are charged with the initial identification of a dog as of the pitbull breed have refused repeatedly to disclose any information with regard to their federally approved training as required by federal law in identifying this specific breed, which should be available upon public inquiry.
2. Canadian Federal Law stipulates that the Canadian Kennel Club are the only federally recognized body to legally determine the breed of a dog.
3. In accordance with the Canadian Kennel Club and the Veterinary Medical Association of Canada, due to lack of data federally required to determine a dog to be of a specific breed, there are no certified personnel legally recognized who are able to properly identify a dog as a pitbull or as pitbull-like in appearance in Canada and that even a CKC member does not have enough knowledge of this breed to identify any dog as being of the pitbull breed or family of the pitbull breed.
4. Because there are no such federally certified personnel, there are no federal, provincial or municipal pitbull breed identifiers who can identify the breed sitting in the organizations of the people charged to uphold the BSL by-laws nor sitting on the appeal boards who review cases nor sitting on City councils who enforce appeal decisions.
5. Veterinarians who have sat on the appeal board in Kitchener have given an estimate that 40% of the dogs being identified as pitbulls are incorrect identifications of the by-law enforcement organizations, and at least 2/3s of the appeal boards are not people federally recognized to legally determine the breed of a dog. As the appeal board requires a majority decision, this decision cannot be made without federally recognized personnel who can properly determine the breed in question.
6. The method by which a dog is identified upon appeal requires the owner to produce paper evidence of the dog's lineage and does not require burden of proof for the by-law enforcement organization that placed the designation or accusation upon the dog. However the majority of dog owners in Canada, in Ontario, and the cities as listed, who own mixed breeds are not able to produce such evidence as many of these dogs have been rescued and adopted via private shelters, via the Humane Society Chapters and via private breeders.
7. A law which requires evidence that cannot be produced by the majority of defendants is a law that shows bias and all biased laws must be revoked in order to maintain the validity of all Canadian law at every level of Government.
8. A law that does not put the burden of proof upon the accuser is a law that is in violation of the principals of Canadian law wherein all shall be innocent until proven guilty. The law reads “to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal”. Additionally many of the appeal boards include people sitting on that board that for personal reasons have an agenda against the pitbull breed or have spoken out in a public manner against pitbull breeds and therefore cannot be deemed to be impartial and therefore not ensuring a method of gathering that ensures the fundamentals of Canadian law are upheld.
9. There is no method in place that allows the defender of the dogs to challenge the bias of members sitting on the appeal boards during the appeal process or in the city councils and therefore bias may exist unchallenged which is against the fundamental principals of Canadian Law.
10. There is no method in place that allows the defender of the dogs to challenge the experience, certification, knowledge, licensing, and federal approval of the members sitting on the appeal boards during the appeal process or in the city councils and therefore there is no proven expertise which exists to enforce the law or defend against the law, which is against the fundamental principals of Canadian Law.

In the interest that you are charged with ensuring all laws passed in the Province of Ontario are based on factual evidence, enforced in methods that are in compliance with federal law, and uphold the principals of Canadian Law, and in consideration of the above points of law and fact, we ask you immediately impose this emergency legislation forcing the injunction of all BSL by-laws in the province of Ontario, Canada.

We respectly ask that you entiled this the Lily Legislation, named after a dog wrongfully identified, despite Canadian Federal Laws, by non-federally certified personnel in the City of Kitchener Ontario Canada under by-law c530 of the Corporation of the City of Kitchener By-Laws.

Thank-you for your time. I look forward to your response. Kindly respond in writing to the address supplied below my signature.

Sincerely;

Your Name
Your Address


FAX this letter to 1-519-742-6907. In Ontario, letters addressed to MPPs DO NOT require postage if sent by an Ontario Resident which is what we are. We will then take your fax, and mail it to Michael Bryant as well all MPPS not in support of the BSL, and all local Kitchener Council and MPs not in support of the BSL and all organizations fighting to stop the BSL..

PLEASE, this is specifically important for ALL residents of Ontario and Canada to send this letter! For anyone not in Canada your letter matters just as much because it helps the government and organizations understand the amount of world-wide support this issue has.

Thanks!!!!
Jen

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 02:08 PM
Fax Number Is 1-519-742-0992 Sorry

kellyla
May 27th, 2005, 02:09 PM
I heard the interview and you were great.That one guy couldnt/wouldnt give you a straight answer.Typical politician.I will be tuning in next week when you are on again and they are discussing BSL.

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 02:30 PM
I'd love to take credit for the quick thinking and smart questions. That was Sandra who did the interview. And yes, it went over quite well. We'll post in here as soon as we know what the date and time of the next interview will be.

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 02:35 PM
In the Interview.. just for clarification, Steve Barker is the representative of the DLCC who have been working very hard to have this issue brought to the public. Steve is dedicated to the abolishment of all BSLs in Canada.

The one who had no idea what he was talking about even though he was parimount in getting the BSL by-law in Kitchener passed is City of Kitchener Councilman Berry Vrbanovic the same guy who lied on CKCO about the appeal board being represented properly.

Schwinn
May 27th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Any transcripts, or anyone want to provide a summary?

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 03:44 PM
The entire interview is here : http://www.savinglily.com/AM900interview.mp3

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Fatal Dog Attacks Leading to the death of a child - Canada: 1983 - 2003

1983 (2) Farm Dogs Roaming dogs kill child (Edmonton)
1987 (1) German Shep X Chained dog attacked child (Vernon)
1988 (1) German Shep Unsupervised child (Quebec)
1990 (1) Chow Chow Attack on newborn (Ontario)
1993 (1) Sled dogs Chained dogs kill child (N.W.T.)
1993 (5) Sled dogs Attacked by loose dogs (Alberta)
1994 (1) Maremma Sheepdog Family dog killed child (Ontario)
1995 (2) Am Staffs Drunken man provoked dogs (Ontario)
1995 (2) German Sheps Killed by uncle's dogs (Saskatchewan)
1996 (?) Strays Child killed by stray dogs (Manitoba)
1997 (1) Sled dog Chained dog w/pups (Saskatchewan)
1998 (?) Sled dogs Pack chained on sea ice (Iqaluit)
1998 (1) Bullmastiff Playing w/neighbor's dog (Ontario)
1998 (8) Lab/Huskies Xs Mother & son killed by pack (Newfoundland)
1998 (6) Strays Boy killed by strays (Manitoba)
1999 (1) Husky X Neighbor's dog (British Columbia)
1999 (1) Husky One of 24 chained dogs (Quebec)
1999 (1) Husky X Grandfather's dog (N.W.T.)
1999 (?) Strays Girl killed by starving dogs (Alberta)
2002 (2) Lab X & Rott Attacked in field (Ontario)
2003 (3) Rottweilers Boy wandered into yard (New Brunswick)
2003 (4) German Shep Xs Grandmother's dogs (Manitoba)

twodogsandacat
May 27th, 2005, 06:16 PM
Fatal Dog Attacks Leading to the death of a child - Canada: 1983 - 2003

1983 (2) Farm Dogs Roaming dogs kill child (Edmonton)
1987 (1) German Shep X Chained dog attacked child (Vernon)
1988 (1) German Shep Unsupervised child (Quebec)
1990 (1) Chow Chow Attack on newborn (Ontario)
1993 (1) Sled dogs Chained dogs kill child (N.W.T.)
1993 (5) Sled dogs Attacked by loose dogs (Alberta)
1994 (1) Maremma Sheepdog Family dog killed child (Ontario)
1995 (2) Am Staffs Drunken man provoked dogs (Ontario)
1995 (2) German Sheps Killed by uncle's dogs (Saskatchewan)
1996 (?) Strays Child killed by stray dogs (Manitoba)
1997 (1) Sled dog Chained dog w/pups (Saskatchewan)
1998 (?) Sled dogs Pack chained on sea ice (Iqaluit)
1998 (1) Bullmastiff Playing w/neighbor's dog (Ontario)
1998 (8) Lab/Huskies Xs Mother & son killed by pack (Newfoundland)
1998 (6) Strays Boy killed by strays (Manitoba)
1999 (1) Husky X Neighbor's dog (British Columbia)
1999 (1) Husky One of 24 chained dogs (Quebec)
1999 (1) Husky X Grandfather's dog (N.W.T.)
1999 (?) Strays Girl killed by starving dogs (Alberta)
2002 (2) Lab X & Rott Attacked in field (Ontario)
2003 (3) Rottweilers Boy wandered into yard (New Brunswick)
2003 (4) German Shep Xs Grandmother's dogs (Manitoba)

I've posted these before also but the latest is .....three year old Cody Fontaine in British Columbia in 2004...Rottis and Sheepdog - who did the killing wasn't proven to the best of my knowledge but the mother was a real piece of work.

Jen you are doing an awesome job here. Maybe I'll take a day of in June and try and attend.

babyrocky1
May 27th, 2005, 06:17 PM
[QUOTE=JenSteele]Alex Pierson CityTV has been officially banned from Bryants office since she tricked him into picking a pitbull out of a lineup of dogs.. he was coached already on the infamous pitbull line up and picked #15 like he was told to do." I know your bombarded right now with info Jen, but I just wanted to clarify that one statement. Alex was ACCUSED by BRyant of trying to trick him, but the reality was that she caught him cheating. The Pit bull quiz is and has been all over the internet, realising this, she had the graphics teem move the order of the pictures around, just incase, which turned out to be a good thing cause he picked number sixteen, without hesitation. Number sixteen was were the pitbull was before the pictures were moved. So she didn't trick him, she prevented him from cheating, which he tried to do and was caught on camera, much to the delight of all of us that watched over and over again!

twodogsandacat
May 27th, 2005, 06:57 PM
[QUOTE=JenSteele]The Pit bull quiz is and has been all over the internet, realising this, she had the graphics teem move the order of the pictures around, just incase, which turned out to be a good thing cause he picked number sixteen, without hesitation. Number sixteen was were the pitbull was before the pictures were moved. So she didn't trick him, she prevented him from cheating, which he tried to do and was caught on camera, much to the delight of all of us that watched over and over again!

Exactly. When Alex asked Out of all these dogs, can you tell me which one the pit bull is?

He did not say I don’t know, I won’t be the one to determine, or experts will do that.
He said without hesitation: 16…that one.

When Alex told him they moved it around he becomes visibly upset and calls it a neat trick but man did she earn her pay that day. He regains his composure but it was too late....he thought he had the answers to last years test, the question stayed the same but the teacher changed the order...in school that would be called cheating....not a neat trick. A liar caught in the act.

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 08:21 PM
Ya gotta love when killers look like idiots... and yes I stand corrected, she did absolutely stop him from cheating, poor choice of words on my part.

Thank-you by the way to everyone who has faxed in their letters so far. We will be sending them out 25 Letters at a time. If you haven't done it don't kid yourself, BSL legislation is coming to a city near you and from all the research we did today the scariest thing we found out was that the majority of BSLs that have gone uncontested get expaned to more and more breeds. Silence in this sends a message that you accept what's happening. Don't prove Berry Vrbanovic right - he said "People agree with the legislation" and that's only because the people who vote these idiots in aren't saying whats really on their minds. Silence will kill more dogs, it's not going to stop.

PLEASE PLEASE go to www.savinglily.com and click on the link that says CLICK HERE, print out the letter with your info on it and FAX it as soon as you can. If you're the member of a dog club, get the info to them. If you're in Ontario this BSL by-law is coming, and your silence won't stop it. PLEASE get that letter filled out and FAXED in to us. We've got 6 faxed in so far. 6 will not stop this. Take it to your ball clubs, take it to your work, your favorite hang-out and don't stop talking about it. If you stop, dogs will die. PLEASE I can't say it enough, spread the word and get these letters faxed to us as soon as you can. It has to be swift, loud and public and sneak up on them before they have the chance to have those ready made answers prepared.

Thanks!
Jen

Safyre
May 27th, 2005, 08:45 PM
Jen - Can I make one suggestion on your letter to Mr. Bryant? You have only mentioned Brampton, Windosr and Kitchener .. Waterloo needs to be mentioned as well.
While Kitchener Waterloo is connected in most things, they have thier own seperate BSL laws. Waterloo's BSL is BASICALLY the same as Kitcheners, wording is a bit different. Just thought I would mention.

Loraxp
May 27th, 2005, 09:30 PM
Awesome job Jen!!!! Keep trucking!

Pitbulls, Stafshires, Rotties, and Mastifs are all banned from my dinky little town here in the north. There are a few people fighting the municipal by-law presently. They didn't go into the details at council about the court cases (as they knew I was present and didn't want to open a can of worms).

Count me in on helping out!! I wish I lived closer so I could do more! Best wishes and GREAT LUCK!! :thumbs up

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 27th, 2005, 11:27 PM
I sent my email to Mr. Byrant I wish you all the luck with Lily I posted her web site on another site as well. ITs mostly in the states but there is also another lab boxer owner on there.

JenSteele
May 27th, 2005, 11:43 PM
Thanks so much for sending to Mr. Bryant, the only thing I ask is that you do it in writing and fax it to me at 1-519-742-0992 (on 24 hours), because he's required by law to respond. While I know we may all get form letters back, which is his history so far, it gives us amunition to give to the politicians opposing him that he had people on people on people trying to stop BSL and he did nothing but send a form letter out as the Attorney General of Ontario. He's already being accused of not being able to pass any legislation implying he doesn't know what he's doing. The Lily Legislation is the easiest piece that's come across his deak in a while, and it will definitely make him look like an absolute idiot if he doesn't try to pass it. And that's what we're going for so that nobody trusts anything that comes out of Micheal Bryant's mouth. I think this is the first time since I've been able to vote that I've seen so many people turn against Ontario's own Attorney General.

In answer to mentioning Waterloo, we are calling for the injunction of all BSL legislation in Ontario. Let's be clear an injuction is not a permanent stop it's a stay of execution. There is much stronger legislation that is already being drafted that then can see the light of day if we can just get an injunction but we need 1000s on 1000s on 1000s of people to start printing out the letter at http://www.savingdog.com/lilyletter.html and faxing it to us. Lily now has 31 days to be in the hearts and minds of everyone who has a TV, a Radio, a Newspaper or a computer. If at the end of the 31 days on June 27th, we haven't created the biggest media hype they've seen ever on BSL, they will forget all about this the next day.

GET YOUR BARK ON!!!!!

Jen

JenSteele
May 28th, 2005, 12:26 AM
To answer about the BSL in Waterloo, here's an official quote:

"In April 1997, the Cities of Kitchener and Waterloo combined their Animal
Control By-law to govern both cities. "

If you kill the Kitchener by-law you kill it for both cities.

JenSteele
May 28th, 2005, 01:59 AM
Just to keep you up to date, the website www.savelily.com is launching very shorty. Remember we have to ensure everything we say on it is backed up by fact. Dotting the I's and crossing the T's time. :)

Jen

JenSteele
May 28th, 2005, 05:16 PM
Hi Everyone.. quick update on a legal conversation.

Serious Flaws with The Notice of Prohibited Dog Designation:

:the first page does not quote the by-law number or section being enforced.
:it includes a seperate page attached to the Designation that does not quote the correct By-Law Number and sub-sections and therefore misleads the defendant of the dog
:it does not include as is your entreched right under full disclosure laws in order to properly formulate a defence, a copy of all evidence brought against the dog including a copy of the original complaint report, a copy of the pictures of your dog, an outline of the proceedure used to determine that the dog is a prohibited dog and what specific traits were identified in designating your dog
: It does not, in writing, indicate anywhere what happens to your dog while you file an appeal
:it advises you that the appeal may be overturned by council but does not indicate how you appeal to council nor if you have to turn over your dog until council meets
: it does not give you your basic right to appeal a municipal decision to the province or advice you of that right
: it does not honour the Canadian right to a fair trial when charged with violation to a public and fair trial, rather it tells you that it is your job to request a hearing. In order for this to be proper it should have immediately given a trial date not told you that you have to to arrange for one.


So, while the violations to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is very obvious, in the interest of our right to forumulate a defence, we intend to demand our rights of full disclosure directly to the KW Humane Society on Monday. As well, we are entitled to anything that is public information so we will also be going directly to the Clerks Desk at City Hall and demanding to know :

1) How many appeal notices have been handed out since 1997
2) How many appeals were filed since 1997
3) How many appeals upheld the designation
4) How many appeals overturned the designation
5) How many appeals that were upheld were then appealed to City Council
6) How many appeals were overturned by City Council
7) How many appeals were upheld by City Council
8) The vote results when the BSL lesiglation was passed in Kitchener-Waterloo
9) The number of dog bites from 1997 to 2005 and the breeds involved in both Kitchener and Waterloo
10) The number of violations of the leash by-laws that were enforced
11) The number of violations of the dog at large by-laws that were enforced
12) The total number of fines issued under the breed specific legislation since 1997 and what the fines were for.
13) How many other appeals against a Notice of Prohibited Dog Designation are being held on the June 27th?
14) What are the names and address of the other people also appealing? (remember this is supposed to be a public trial and therefore this information is publicly available unless it falls under the young offenders act which it doesn't)

The KW Humane Society and City Hall will be asked verbally and then will be presented with written letter.

:) Thanks again for the faxes we have 57 and climbing!!!! Need 1000s!!

Jen

Schwinn
May 28th, 2005, 10:57 PM
I'll be sending mine in on Tuesday when I get back to work. In the meantime, it sounds as though you have enough on technicality to get this thrown out. I'm sure you'd like to get that done through the fact BSL is bogus, but I just think that might be something I'd keep in my back pocket.

Again, it can't be said enough...you're doing awesome!

twodogsandacat
May 28th, 2005, 11:45 PM
The Toronto Star has a recent story about the problems of getting access to public information. Remember if some civil servant asks it is not their business why you want it. Get as many numbers as you can.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1117231810097&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes

I won't be sending an email to Bryant or McGuinty as I'm sure I'm on their ignore list already from other emails I have sent.

There are an estimated 460 000 dog bites in Canada according to the CSA. If averaged that's over 1260 a day. There is no doubt that the media will print every story of a pit biting no matter how severe the injuries and you may find a pit attack story every day if you look.......where are the other 1259 bites. They aren't reported by the media. The Chocolate Lab that bit a kid in Niagara Falls that was reported online at one location only - a radio station. I’m sure we all know of local bites that weren’t in the paper.

This is why BSL won’t likely survive a court challenge before a judge. When the Liberals refused to include a dog bite registry in Bill 132 they did so in order to hide the truth. Still a judge is very likely to believe that with so many bites occurring on a regular basis but only the pit bites making the paper that there are a hell of a lot of bites we aren't hearing about so maybe pits aren't 'inherently dangerous' after all.

Judges don't buy emotional arguments but they love numbers and they love facts....everything else is BS. Once again.....good luck to you.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 29th, 2005, 12:23 AM
http://www.petfinders.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4494091&adTarget=468petsgeneral&SessionID=4299516b7b40e744-app2&display=&preview=1&row=0&tmpl=&stat=

Here is another dog thought has gone through a case of mistaken identity.

JenSteele
May 29th, 2005, 01:34 AM
Thanks for the links!!! The Access to Information was also printed in our local newspaper TODAY! Man that felt good! On Monday they'll be terrified not to give us the information.

Thanks for the link on that poor pup... We'll definitely add it to the area that we're building for stories on dogs effected by BSL. We need A LOT of those types of stories.

Jen

www.savinglily.com

babyrocky1
May 29th, 2005, 01:37 AM
theres a good, or I should say, really sad story about Taco on the BSL thread. You may already know about it since your intouch with Advocates for the Underdog. If not I can find it for you.

Safyre
May 29th, 2005, 11:07 AM
2 more faxes comming your way today :)

LittleLoves
May 29th, 2005, 03:19 PM
http://www.petfinders.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4494091&adTarget=468petsgeneral&SessionID=4299516b7b40e744-app2&display=&preview=1&row=0&tmpl=&stat=

Here is another dog thought has gone through a case of mistaken identity.

OMG! That's my dog Lady's twin!! They say he's a Fox Terrier mix, and so is Lady. :eek: I admit then that I am thankful I don't live in Ontario. :mad:

This whole thing just sickens me. :mad:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/ChantelleK/littlelady.jpg

JenSteele
May 29th, 2005, 03:46 PM
It's time to scare you all into action... Remeber I was saying that BSL is spreading and it's spreading to more breeds?

The official list of BSL legislation in Canada:

Winnipeg and MacDonald, Manitoba - Pitbull BSL

New Brunswick has been drafting BSL legislation since January 29th, of this year.

Edmonton Alberta has already enacted a light BSL

The Village of Clavet in Saskachewan has enacted BSL - Pitbulls

Ontario BSL-Pitbull Cities include Brantford, Lakeshore, Kitchener-Waterloo, Midland, Powassan, Vaughn, Windsor

Quebec BSL-Pitbull and/or Rottweilers and/or Mastiffs cities include Sherbrooke, Saint-Jean-sur-Richilieu, Lachine, Kirkland, Outremont, Saint Genevieve

Nova Scotia - BSL- Pitbull Clark's Harbour, Guysborough County

Prince Edward Island - BSL - Pit Bulls and Rottweilers - Montague

Everyone move to Newfoundland or do something!!! Those are the ones already in, it doesn't mean there isn't one being drafted in every city in every province in Canada.

Nobody is safe until we can get BSL completely abolished and out-lawed in Canada.

Loraxp
May 29th, 2005, 05:04 PM
Don't forget Chapleau Ontario!!
Actually in this weeks paper the major story is all about the municipal by-laws for pets. Here is the article:

"Although a kitten or puppy may be too cute to resist, they come with a lot of responsibility.
Pets demand a lot of time and attention, as well as expense, in order to keep them healthy, happy and also keep them from being a nuisance to the neighbourhood.
An added expense associated with pets is the municipal license, which must be purchased every year. Irresponsible pet owners may face more expenses due to charges stemming from neglect of rules and regulations outlined in the municipal by-laws. It is also more expensive if your pet is considered dangerous or a vicious breed.
Dangerous or vicious breed dogs must not be allowed to breed and must be spayed or neutered. This type of pet must be leashed, muzzled or kenneled at all times, whether on the owner's property or on public property. A sign, warning of the existance of a dangerous or vicious breed of dog, must be posted by the owner.
Vicious breeds are banned in our community since 2003 and only those that were acquired before that year are allowed, with the prior stated conditions. These unacceptable breeds are American Pitbull Terrier American Staffordshire Terrier Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Rottweiler and Mastiff. A dangerous dog is one that has done something without warrant a Notice of Caution.
Any household is not allowed to own or care for more than two dogs and/or cats. Only a kennel is allowed to house more than two of each of these animals with the appropriate licensing.
Dog and cat owners are responsible for picking up after their pets (poop & scoop) and to keep them on a leash at all times when thery are not on the owner's property. Cats must have a collar with the license attached. When on the owner's property dogs that are tied out must not be able to enter anyone else's yard or reach the sidewalk. Our neighbours and their children must be able to walk without worrying about stepping in something or being jumped on by someone elses dog. Not everyone appreciates a friendly dog.
Excessive barking is also a problem which is addressed in the municipal by-law pertaining to excessive noise and is enforced by the OPP in partnership with the By-Law Officer.
Dogs and cats that are not tied or fenced in, will be picked up by the By-Law officer and the owner will have to pay a fine and possibly veterinarian fees. Dogs and cats are brought to the municipal pound where they are kept approximately 3 days.
The pound has 3 kennels and a large outdoor pen. Cats tend to occupy the pound more consistantly than dogs do. The township has humane live traps for cats that may be borrowed by citizens who are encountering problems with a nuisance cat.
Pets who run free throughout the neighbourhood are not only bothersome but may also face dangers of their own such as abuse, vehicles and exposure to poisonus substances. Being a responsible neighbour is just common courtesy. It isn't cruel to secure your pet on your property but it may be cruel not to!

Okay, long article, but NOWHERE do they mention what happens to the dogs and cats after the 3 days in the pound (i.e., SHOOT THEM and toss them into the DUMP). Nither do they encourage providing shelter, food and water for your pet when tied out. I think I'll be writing a letter to the editor for next weeks edition... and how dumb is it to allow only 2 dogs and/or cats per house hold??!!
We have three dogs and a cat - if they told us to get rid of one or more we'd do just like you Jen and fight and possible leave town. NO WAY is anyone taking any of my babies away!!!

babyrocky1
May 29th, 2005, 06:53 PM
Two more coming from me tomorrow!

Shaykeija
May 29th, 2005, 07:10 PM
All I can say is... Our goverment is run by flipping idiots. On the llighter side... I owed the goverment $40 or so in taxes. I sent it to Paul Martin and told him to take it out of the millions they stole. Think I am going to be audited.. :p

LittleLoves
May 29th, 2005, 07:23 PM
Ok...a stupid question, and I'm so sorry for not knowing this one!

What does BSL stand for? I have been thinking you were all using it as a slang term for "Bull ***** Law". :o

JDG
May 29th, 2005, 07:26 PM
BSL=Breed Specific Legislation

LittleLoves
May 29th, 2005, 07:33 PM
BSL=Breed Specific Legislation

Thanks! It's good not to be in the dark. :thumbs up

JenSteele
May 29th, 2005, 08:14 PM
Thanks for the update on Chapleau, I've added it. That's the most comprehensive list of registered breeds I've seen banned yet. This is crazy.

Thanks for the faxes folks! We now have 123.. need at least 1000 keep 'em comin!!!

The first round are going out tomorrow.

You all rock!! I can't believe how well everyone is doing at getting the word out!

On the site, we've posted on the first page to the right, the current cities again and all of the suggestions from people who've been signing petitions and faxing in letters on how to financially cripple a city that has BSL... if anyone would like to post this on their website please contact sandra@2gogroup.com

Thanks

Jen

babyrocky1
May 29th, 2005, 08:25 PM
Jen, Ive started a thread on the BSL page to ask for people to help us find and go through the committee hearings, if you get a sec, could you please give us feedback as to the specifics of the info that you need.

JenSteele
May 29th, 2005, 09:59 PM
There are new, colour clear photos of Lily on the page. Scroll to about the middle, and I've explained the picture and what we're pointing out in each one.

http://www.savinglily.com

Let me know your thoughts.

I'll go back over to that BSL thread in about an hour.. we're still sorting through pictures...


Jen

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 29th, 2005, 10:06 PM
Shes a beauty I bet she feels like velvet. She doesn't look very pitbull like either. :)

JenSteele
May 29th, 2005, 10:18 PM
Thanks :) She's really velvety when she hasn't been rolling in the dirt we're digging up for the garden.

Are there other angles anyone think we should display?

happycats
May 30th, 2005, 06:25 AM
With all that's going on with Lily, and I'm sure will soon be going on all over Ontario, I wonder if Doggie DNA would help these situations? Is there a way through DNA testing wethere these dogs are Pit Bulls or not??

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 30th, 2005, 06:30 AM
I think the angles look good but I am no expert, what about using a digital camera to take a short video clip of Lily or maybe even setting up a web cam of her.

......I was also thinking that the Boston Terrier looks somewhat similar to a pit bull
http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogbreeds/bostonterriers.html

does anyone else see it. :)

twodogsandacat
May 30th, 2005, 06:36 AM
With all that's going on with Lily, and I'm sure will soon be going on all over Ontario, I wonder if Doggie DNA would help these situations? Is there a way through DNA testing wethere these dogs are Pit Bulls or not??

No. DNA was ruled out early when this Bill 132 heated up. However DNA can be used to confirm bloodlines. That is to prove that a dog has a common link with some other pit bull.

babyrocky1
May 30th, 2005, 10:15 AM
But breeds of dogs aren't distinquishable by DNA they are all K9, so are you saying that they can be shown to be "related" to another "pit bull"? Im not clear as this is the first time Ive heard this. I think what your saying is that if a dog, any breed, were related to another dog, any breed, then that could be proven through DNA. If so, if Lilys parents were a pure bred boxer and a pure bred lab then if that could be proven through DNA she could not be a Pit bull. Or have I misunderstood?

twodogsandacat
May 30th, 2005, 10:34 AM
But breeds of dogs aren't distinquishable by DNA they are all K9, so are you saying that they can be shown to be "related" to another "pit bull"? Im not clear as this is the first time Ive heard this. I think what your saying is that if a dog, any breed, were related to another dog, any breed, then that could be proven through DNA. If so, if Lilys parents were a pure bred boxer and a pure bred lab then if that could be proven through DNA she could not be a Pit bull. Or have I misunderstood?

From what I understand (CyberKitten maybe can explain this):

There is nothing to say that a lab is different than a pit in DNA. However if you have DNA from the mother you can prove to a certain degree that the pups are from that mother or at least related to that mother.

So if you had Lily's parents you could prove she is their offspring. Of course they would have to accept that the boxer and the lab were exactly that.

Found this link: http://www.akc.org/dna/index.cfm

The AKC DNA Database and Parentage Verification

Comparison of the DNA profiles of a dam, sire, and pup(s) will determine, with greater than 99% confidence, whether the pups are from the tested dam and sire. The AKC DNA database examines the parentage of all AKC DNA Certified registered dogs and litters whelped on or after January 1, 2000. When problems are discovered, the DNA staff works with breeders to determine correct parentage at the breeder's expense.
.........
Furthermore, AKC DNA Profiles cannot determine the breed of a dog.


CK?

nymph
May 30th, 2005, 11:15 AM
And she has amazingly shiny coat! Good job in raising her Jen!

babyrocky1
May 30th, 2005, 11:48 AM
Jen, I have spoken to the Queens Park Clerk and as I suspected they do not keep the records that you were asking for, so, do you actually want the records, or did you just want to confirm that they, the provincial government do not keep them? I do not believe that accurate records are kept and that is why an amendment to bill 132 was propsed, asking for a bite registry. It was refused by the Bryant clan cause they don't want to know, they just want to ban pit bulls. If you would like me to keep making calls for that kind of info, let me know, and Ill be on it ASAP.

KessyWessy
May 30th, 2005, 11:57 AM
Are Lily's parents puerebreeds, ckc recognised? With papers (wouldn't that be good)

IF I understand correctly the ckc can't identify a non breed dog. Ok.
And DNA can't identify breed, BUT can be used to identify parentage.

So..... could Lily be proved to be her parent's daughter by DNA, and then the CKC identify her parents a purebreed dogs, a lab and boxer? Wouldn't that give you a little loophole to prove she's not a pitbull? Would that stand up in court, if necessary?

I had to paraphrase whats been posted to make sure I understand correctly. Did I get it right?

Or does it seem like to easy an answer in a world thats a big giant grey area?


Jen, at first when I saw a pic of Lily (this weekend- you only had 1 or 2 on the site) I said to myself "If somebody told be she is a pitbull I'd probably believe them"

I'm not telling you this to make you upset- just to show how to the untrained eye -and believe me I've got 2 of those- it can be hard to tell, especially from a picture taken from and angle that skews the body shape. I'm a perfect example of your point. The people "identifying" your dog do NOT seem qualified.

The new pic you're postet are great, by the way.

*sigh*

The whole problem with BSL is, that its not. Breed Specific that is. They're banning a "breed" thats not a breed. Does that meen a yorkie-poo is at risk too? Yorkie-poo is not a breed, any more than the pitbull. A big giant grey area and no one with the balls, or qualifications to draw the line.

Best of luck, Jen.

I'm rooting for you.

lezzpezz
May 30th, 2005, 12:44 PM
All I can say is... Our goverment is run by flipping idiots. On the llighter side... I owed the goverment $40 or so in taxes. I sent it to Paul Martin and told him to take it out of the millions they stole. Think I am going to be audited.. :p

I thought that was a riot! :D

heeler's rock!
May 30th, 2005, 12:53 PM
Jen, I looked at the pics on your site and the first breed that came to mind wasn't lab, boxer, or pitbull. It was actually Rhodesian Ridgeback.

I pray that this bull ***** law gets thrown out. I am OUTRAGED at the fact that I live in a country that allows people to dictate to people based on NO FACTS! Bryant didn't listen to facts, but passed the law anywas. Thats a dictatorship, not a democracy. Here in Calgary, we don't have any type of BSL, yet. I've heard talks of it on the news, but so far nothing I know of. It is more like a plague than a law. Once one city does it, the rest of the country gets on borad, and it's because of uneducated people that we're losing our freedoms and rights.

I have 1 heeler cross, and one rescued heeler that the rescue I got her from believes is purebred, and she has the head shape of a bull terrier. Now, heeler's are bred from bull terriers, among other breeds like digos, rough collies, and dalmations. Does this mean that a pit bull ban will affect any pure bred dog that's bred from a "pit bull", just because I don't have papers?? Even if I had papers, wouldn't that still not matter because she's bred from a pit bull?? That's ABSURD!! That's a whole other breed, suffering needlessly.

I pray that BSL doesn't come here, but I think it's just a matter of time. I wish you all the good luck in the world. You are a doggy saviour! I admire your fight and determination, and I can't wait until the KWHS just gives up on this stupid ban!! :)

Oh, and Shaykeija,

On the llighter side... I owed the goverment $40 or so in taxes. I sent it to Paul Martin and told him to take it out of the millions they stole. Think I am going to be audited..

That's HILARIOUS!! :p I love it! I got a huge tax bill to, and I was like, who's gonna pay me back the thousands stolen from me by the government?? I should do up a fake bill for all the money those turds have taken from me to fund their lavish lifestyles. *******s!! :)

twodogsandacat
May 30th, 2005, 01:45 PM
Jen, I looked at the pics on your site and the first breed that came to mind wasn't lab, boxer, or pitbull. It was actually Rhodesian Ridgeback.

We adopted a Rhodesian Ridgeback \ Boxer mix. When I saw the face shot I thought ‘oh no’ . So yes that face could definitely have some Rhoady in it. The body is a little shorter and squatter than mine though.

The reality is that the reverse onus laws really place too much emphasise on what isn’t known and can’t be proven. One test for reverse onus laws is the possibility that an innocent person could be convicted. As Bill 132 has possible jail time attached the situation is that many could be charged with breaking the law without even knowing it applied to them as there is no mechanism to have your dog checked or cleared ahead of time. Once again, only when the courts rule on it will the general population know that Bryant’s an idiot.

chico2
May 30th, 2005, 03:42 PM
Well,looking at her pictures,I can see Lab in her...now,I have really untrained eyes :D
If I compare her to Luckys sweet Chloe,Lilys face is longer and the webbed feet are certainly not those of a"Pit-Bull".
She is beautiful and looks really soft...
Having said that,I can also see how someone not knowledgable could take her for a Pit-Bull.
I have new neighbors and they have a 1-year old Black Lab,even he,could probably be thought to be a Pit,by someone not knowing anything about dogs,but of course he's larger than most Pitties.
I admire your strenght and determination,you are fighting for the rights of someone you love,like so many others in this screwed up Ontario and I wish you,your family and Lucy tons of luck and support.

JenSteele
May 30th, 2005, 06:11 PM
The official position of the Vets Medical Association of Canada said that DNA testing is effective only to determine the parents of a puppy. DNA testing does not verify a breed and there is no scientific method established, in Canada, for the scientific determination of dog breeds.

With all that's going on with Lily, and I'm sure will soon be going on all over Ontario, I wonder if Doggie DNA would help these situations? Is there a way through DNA testing wethere these dogs are Pit Bulls or not??

JenSteele
May 30th, 2005, 06:14 PM
You can see a video of Lily here:

http://www.savinglily.com/ckcointerview.rm

It's a Real Audio/Media file. You need Real Audio installed to see it.

Jen :)

I think the angles look good but I am no expert, what about using a digital camera to take a short video clip of Lily or maybe even setting up a web cam of her.

......I was also thinking that the Boston Terrier looks somewhat similar to a pit bull
http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogbreeds/bostonterriers.html

does anyone else see it. :)

CockatooMomx4
May 30th, 2005, 08:42 PM
I am so sorry to here of what KwHS is doing. I hope you keep fighting this ban on any pitbulls. I feel that if a pitbull is that dangerous than it is the owner that made him that way and maybe they should be destoryed not the dog. The dog was not born mean it was made mean by someone of the human race, they didn't get mean by themselves did they? If we let the laws dictate what kind of dogs we are allowed to have and which one we are not thatn I better start packing up my two dogs, my 4 cockatoos and of course let me not forget my cats because maybe they will be ban. My dogs are Jack Russell Terriers, are they going to be banned next because they are YAPPY dogs? If we let Ontario dictate about "pitbulls" then how far are we going to let them go?? I won't stand for it! "Pitbulls" are made mean by owners, "Owners" who are doing this to these specific breeds should be "destoryed" for what they are doing to the dogs, "Leave our Pitbulls alone"!!!! :mad: :ca:

JenSteele
May 30th, 2005, 08:46 PM
Yes I just wanted confirmation that they have no records. PERFECT THANK-YOU!!!

Jen, I have spoken to the Queens Park Clerk and as I suspected they do not keep the records that you were asking for, so, do you actually want the records, or did you just want to confirm that they, the provincial government do not keep them? I do not believe that accurate records are kept and that is why an amendment to bill 132 was propsed, asking for a bite registry. It was refused by the Bryant clan cause they don't want to know, they just want to ban pit bulls. If you would like me to keep making calls for that kind of info, let me know, and Ill be on it ASAP.

JenSteele
May 30th, 2005, 09:05 PM
Well we have bad news with regard to that. The father of lily, who was a purebred lab, has since been moved from the london address we had...and we can't find the guy who owned daddy. Private Investigators are too expensive. So we're doing lots of phonecalls.

The Mother of the boxer, who promised to supply pictures and so forth and promised to offer a statement that this is Lily's Mother, has said after understanding that we may need her to testify "I don't want to get involved, it's not my fight". People do that. We had a vet do that already that's why we're down to 2. We're finding out if we can supena her so she has to come. We have a feeling she sold the dog and wasn't supposed to. You know how some breeder agreements of sale prohibit people from selling the dog to an unknown source.

The person who has Lily's sister is completely freaked out and scared about BSL sweeping across provinces but fortunately lives in a city without BSL in another province.

Now we're trying to find the original person that sold her Lily's mother.

Not giving up... we're this close to forcing them to prove the other way.


Are Lily's parents puerebreeds, ckc recognised? With papers (wouldn't that be good)

JenSteele
May 30th, 2005, 09:13 PM
You bet your sweet butt we're mad as hell and we're going until BSL is gone from Canada and then hand everything we've gone through to organizations in the US fighting it in cities down there AND I'm currently working with thepetshow.com distributer in Australia who have a nasty BSL to compare our charter of rights and BSL legislation to find if there's common ground we can give them to fight with.

:) Count on it

I hope you keep fighting this ban on any pitbulls. :

babyrocky1
May 30th, 2005, 09:24 PM
It seems to me that if you can find Lilys parents and they look just like a classic boxer and a classic lab, and you can prove through DNA that they are her parents, that whether or not they are papered it would still be enough to prove that Lily is obviosly not a pit bull and it would prove somethig else as well, how easy it is for misidientification and how far ONE family had to go to PROVE INNOCENCE! How many people have the determination and the resources to do what you are doing for Lily, yet this is what is required if you are to save the life of your pet. If this isn't an example of why reverse onus can never be law I don't know what is! I sent two faxes today, one from me and one from my daughter, I hope they were recieved without problem.

JenSteele
May 30th, 2005, 09:26 PM
WOW!! I went to http://rrcus.org/ and it looks like a website for Lily. You have an amazing eye. We're contacing the club, the AKC and the CKC immediately!

Now how do you like that?.. if they can identify her positively as that mysterious third that makes you wonder... , then we were lied to by everyone involved.. and the 2 certified vets couldn't even identify her properly.. now more than ever EVERYONE has to fight BSL.

Thanks!!!
Jen


Jen, I looked at the pics on your site and the first breed that came to mind wasn't lab, boxer, or pitbull. It was actually Rhodesian Ridgeback.

babyrocky1
May 30th, 2005, 09:27 PM
Jen, you should talk to Tybrax, she is very active in fighting BSL in Austrailia and comes on this site often! She is someone else with good information! Shes been at it for years I think.

heeler's rock!
May 31st, 2005, 01:35 PM
Glad to be of some help Jen! :o I dog sat a purebred Rhodesian once who is coming back this summer for me to watch again, and she had the same wrinkles on her head when her ears perk up that Lily has, and the same facial expressions. Even the same white patch on her chest! :) I don't think purebred rhodesian, but definitely a dominant breed in her from what I could tell, and I'm no "expert" like the KWHS staff. :rolleyes: :p

Let me know how things turn out with that, and what they decide she is. Whatever they decide, pitbull is dead wrong for sure. Oh, and don't let them tell you she can't be a Rhodesian at all because she doesn't have a ridge. Apparently, you can buy purebred ridgeless Rhodesian Ridgebacks aswell. ;)

JenSteele
May 31st, 2005, 10:06 PM
Sorry everyone that I haven't been updating today... we did update savinglily.com

Yep you certainly have us on the right trail there with the ridgeless.. That dog must have made quite an impression on you... I was reading a psychologists report on how the brain works to identify objects (that's how far were going with this) and commonly in order to identify any thing you have to see that one thing correctly over and over.. it's like if somebody puts an X in front of you and stays this is a Z and then puts a P in front of you and says this is a Z, you're brain isn't sure what it's seeing. Anyway my point that's amazing that you saw that breed in here.

The more we have comparisons done the more the ridgeless features are apparent in Lily. One breeder explained it. You can have 2 purebred black labs with 4 generations of purebred black labs on either side and then all of the sudden they produce a golden lab because somewhere hidden in the gene makeup of one of the dogs if you don't go back at least 7 to 8 generations may have been a golden Lab.

So, Mom's a boxer, Dad's a Lab.. and somewhere in the bloodline the ridgeback may exist. It explains so much about those little "not quite" bits about her. So, next step, have a rigeback breeder to go definitely ridgeless rigeback in her...

Again everyone.. can't thank you enough for all who have been pushing and taking that extra time to actually study her pictures and tell us what you see..

Many thanks and love to your families bi-ped or quadra-ped :)

Jen

babyrocky1
May 31st, 2005, 10:40 PM
Jen I just re-read your pm. I will call Kormos tomorrow and try and get the hand out. Sorry I'm half a sleep and missed that part. Im sure you know the feeling LOL

JenSteele
May 31st, 2005, 10:46 PM
Some more news for you..

People are begining to fax letters directly to the office of the Mayor of Kitchener.. I had no idea about this ... What they're writing is why they'll never visit Kitchener again and how they're going to tell other dog owners not to go... mention the things in Kitchener like Oktoberfest( - brings in $7Million in Tourism bucks) , the Downtown Farmers Market, etc.. go to www.city.kitchener.ca to see the tourist attractions here and then tell him why you won't be coming to see them...

The Mayor is addressed as Mr. Mayor... Mayor of the City of Kitchener Carl Zehr.. Your Honour Mr. Mayor .. Your Honour... etc.. again, be honest but to his title be respectful.. the egos of politicians don't listen if you don't respect their position or don't use phrases like .. I respectfully request... I beseesh you to reconsider.. etc..

The fax number for the mayor is: 1-519-741-2705 don't bother with email apparently nobody is getting throught to info@city.kitchener.on.ca if you put the words pitbull or BSL in it. However they haven't flagged yet for by-law 2004-265 definition t) <-- that's where they define pitbull as "means a dog of any age wich can be identified as a dog of one or more of the following breeds........ "

Get this.. under that definition... they define Pitbull as..... ready... Pitbull but dont' define Pitbull... unreal and above that in subsection i) -- Dog - "means any dog......." .. Ummm a dog is a canine or K9.. dog means dog does not define dog.

AND email this person: kendra.martin@city.kitchener.on.ca Kendra Martin..

She's the Marketing Manager for the City of Kitchener. Be nice to her she's a very sweet person. Just explain to her why you didn't attend Market Day Food and Fun on June 1st.

Thanks a bunch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jen

JenSteele
May 31st, 2005, 10:49 PM
I just wanted to mention one thing.. Nobody is picking on Waterloo for adopting Kitchener's animal control by-laws blindly..

babyrocky1
June 1st, 2005, 04:20 PM
Jen, the document that you need by the dr. (the hand out) is waiting for me to pick up at the office of the clerk, which is near Queens Park, they only just called me so Ill have to pick it up tomorrow, but its ready and waiting. Once I get it Ill see if its better to fax or mail it to you, I wont have it till tommorrow night because Im picking it up onthe way to work in the eve.

JenSteele
June 1st, 2005, 07:34 PM
That's great news .. that's going to help Lily's Appeal

We found a lawyer who is going to help almost pro-bono... I'm not releasing his name just yet because we want to surprise the idiots, but if you know anyone going through this in Kitchener or Waterloo find them.. and tell them to call us immediately we don't care what time it is.

Here's some law nobody knew:

In Ontario, a city is not a government, they're a corporation. A business. Because they're a business when you get in trouble for breaking a city by-law it's like your employer punishing you. So, until you're actually fined and charged with something, get this, NONE of your Rights Apply. So basically, everything the city has been doing to us, is legal ----- to a degree. And again I can't give you everything becuase I don't know who "else" is reading this but if you know anyone who's going through this in Kitchener/Waterloo tell them to call us. Who gave them these rights? The Municipal Code. The Province and the Federal Government.

We were asking ourselves why aren't all the people and organizations going after the cities first?... take the pillars down and then you can knock down the house. Because Municipal law is trickier to beat. Provincial Law is easier because they can't hide behind being a business. Yes, there are still basic rights issues, and yes they are being violated corporation or no corporation, but if they kill the provincial law they can kill the cities by-laws... they have a president that they can base their arguments on in much less time. It's easier to take the whole roof off than it is to kick out the walls that hold it up by the way our lines of government are set up. But, all they need is a bunch of cases that show blatently that their rights are being repeatedly violated and the Municpal Code will change.

So, we felt some dispare being told that. No Rights, No way of saying "UNFAIR!". But, we learned something else that a lot of people who have been going through this don't know. If the Appeal Committee says "Pitbull", you appeal then to City Council (the boss of the corporation if you have that option in your bylaws) .. If they say "Pitbull" and/or you can't appeal to council you then go to a provincial court and get a stay. Now stay's cost money. But if you do your homework and have all of your research done for a stay, it takes a lawyer very little time to do it but it MUST be done immediately after they've found against your dog. And while a stay is in effect you get to keep your dog. In any case, there are proceedures for a stay and if not done properly can make you wait a week or more if you don't know how to ask for it properly and you lose your dog. GET A LAWYER or you'll blow it! It's worth the hour you'll have to pay and most lawyers worth their salt will let you make installment payments. Keep calling until one says yes, and don't wait for the day you go to the stupid idiots and they call your dog a pitbull, you've got to warn a lawyer way in advance so their ready to run to the courthouse.

What we're hoping to do with this lawyer we found is stick around all day as cases are being heard and pulling the other people aside if they lose. Sandra and I agreed that we don't care what kind of bill we're facing, we're going to make sure the rest of the owners that day get their appeal and their stay.

I have more, but the website is finally going to be launched today.... the one we wanted to put up in the first place. I'll post more on that in a bit...

To everyone doing research for us... first, bless you so much! .. No our problem is we have tried very hard to get the names of the other people appearing that day and have had road blocks at every level. I don't know what you can do to get this information, but if you could find a way to have these people contact us.. you'll save dogs lives.

We were told to try and place an ad in the Kitchener Record. www.therecord.com If anyone has some extra cash, because we definitely don't, we need a big ad placed in the Kitchener Record saying "Is your dog on trial June 27th, 2005? Call 742-6907" It's a small amount of text, but it needs big lettering.

That's all for now...

Thanks again so much everyone!!!
Jen

twodogsandacat
June 1st, 2005, 08:14 PM
This is how it should be done. Win and then teach others to win.

Tomorrow I request June 27th of as a flex day. I want to see this.

babyrocky1
June 1st, 2005, 09:58 PM
WOW this sounds great! I wish I could go!!! I think Ill swear off lawyer jokes for the rest of my life after whoever this heroic sole is!!! What about Advocates for the Underdog?? Wouldn't they know of people going through this? Banned Aid?Etc. Does the Go bus go to kitchener? Boy it would be nice to see something go our way for a change! Good for you and Sandra, Jen, it really sounds like things are heading towards a breakthrough!

JenSteele
June 1st, 2005, 10:33 PM
Thanks :) .. No the go bus goes as far a Guelph and then you'd have to take another greyhound. The best thing to do is take the VIA train in.

Advocates for the Underdog sent us a few emails, told us they were in the process of moving and we haven't heard from them since. We're a bit frustrated with the organizations who have being saying "Anything to help" and then you don't hear from them. We sent an email out asking all of them how many people have confrmed with them for the 27th not a reply yet.

Who has been ABSOLUTELY amazing is the Vet Medical Association of Canada and the CKC with giving us scientific info, breeding standards, lookin up information on the CKC person who's sitting on the panel for this thing and teaching us about federal law with regard to dog breeds and designation. Then there's the absolutely amazing Dog Legislation Council of Canada - They have been unreal in the amount of help and advice, facts, pointers, do's and don'ts they've given us, even pointing us to the lawyer who actually cares and knows this kind of law. If you feel like writing a letter, Steve Barker (Ontario Chapter) needs a million pats on the back for going way above and beyond the call of their own focus. And Sandra Alway of the American Pitbull Breeders Association, calling us and reading law and decisions to us to give us more fuel of facts. They've both been so unreal. We rent our house, and because of what we've been doing we've had to put a LOT of business aside. Our landlord an avid dog lover and owner of the two cutest rolly polly MIXED dogs, basically shrugged off the rent until we sort through this and the Walper Hotel (nice nice hotel), a customer of ours, willing to bill us on barter for website services to cover the costs of the lawyer's hotel and food when he's out here. See, the people of the city of Kitchener are good people, it's just the Corporation of the City that beats you down. And ya know what folks.. all ya have to do in this city is ask... good people live here... we just have lousy people in City Hall.

And a big special WOW thanks to the people who are calling and going to clerks offices and pushing people for information we know should be public and getting results by not taking no for an answer... That's the way to do it!!!! Private Citizens taking the time to help one another just because it's the right thing to do.. You've given us so much faith back in what people are really like.

We're putting a whole section up on the site for how to properly handle this situation in Ontario. Learn, teach, save lives... We're not stopping until this bsl nightmare is gone from everywhere, and every time we learn how to deal with the system in another city, it'll go up on the site.

For coming out, If you can't afford a hotel, we have no problem with people who want to stay over-night filling the house and camping out in the back yard. Lily is perimeter trained so there's no surprises on the yard :) It's not a big back yard. It's about 44 feet by 28 feet, so if you lined tents up tent to tent you could squeeze quite a few in. PLEASE if that's going to be your plan CALL us so we know... 1-888-742-6907 tollfree in the US and Canada

I forgot to mention the Mayor of Cambridge Personally called today. I'm not allowed to quote him.. he made that clear.. but, let me say can you feel the smile? His deputy Mayor is getting an official statement together from the Mayor by the weekend that we can post on the site.

Sorry, we have a few facts to check until re re-launch the site... it will be back up by tomorrow evening.

I just can't stop saying thanks so much... you have all been so incredible
Jen

Schwinn
June 2nd, 2005, 09:35 AM
One other thing I would suggest is putting a PayPal link on your website to accept donations. I've got a Canadian Tire card I'm trying to rack up some points for a trailer for my bike! ;)

babyrocky1
June 2nd, 2005, 11:04 AM
Hey again Jen, I wont be able to come on the 27th cause I dont have anyone t take care of Rocky, my daughter has a two year old, shes the only person I trust with him, the dog, I didn't realise it was so far, But Ill be ther in spirit thats for sure! Ill contact you again once I pick up the document :) I think Schwinns idea is a good one! The one about Paypal. Also there are lots of people here who know alot more about CROSS POSTING other sites of people who may need help. ALSO, it cant be said ENOUGH, THANKYOU for doing this and BREAKING this ground!!!!

JenSteele
June 2nd, 2005, 01:30 PM
Thanks so much. Even though things are looking more positive I was feeling pretty defeated today. I was so busy hopping on my horse to come to the rescue I didn't take the time to let myself deal with it completely on an emmotional level. I'm completely drained. Yes, we're putting a paypal link up on the site. We did have one up there on the other one but I think it was so information heavy all on one page nobody noticed.

I'm a bit defeated today too because the place that was going to take Lily fell through, No letters coming in, no calls, no politicians championing the cause and then it really sank in that the charter of rights and freedoms that you thought protected you isn't worth the paper it's written on because in any city in canada they can write laws that allow them to do whatever they darn well please and the reply from the federal government, from Prime Minister Martin, said that my charter of rights and freedoms being denied at a municipal level isn't in "their jurisdiction". They made those rights but it means nothing.

This is NOT the Canada I thought it was.. I'm off to go buy a muzzle for my dog that's never bit anyone and then take her to the doggie park and recycle some of the energy drain. Back on the horse soon :)

Jen

nymph
June 2nd, 2005, 01:56 PM
You are doing an amazing job!

chico2
June 2nd, 2005, 03:41 PM
Jen,don't feel downhearted,you are probably exhausted dealing with this very emotional issue,today might have been a bad day,but tomorrow it could be great.... :thumbs up
People might just be busy and will get back to you..I wish your story could be printed in the major news-papers,the Toronto Star or the Sun.I am sure there are tons of people in Toronto worrying about their Pits and what will happen in August.

babyrocky1
June 2nd, 2005, 05:54 PM
Hey Jen, i know all of those feelings so well! But thanks to helping you I am at least feeling that Im doing something! We were all fighting so hard with rallies and preparing for the hearings and everyone was hyped up and positive, but then, the hearings failed, the rallies failed, you get tired, and the feeling of helplessness sets in! Yes you will be back on the horse tomorrow and we will all be there with you. It is frightening what they can do under the banner of democracey but we will find a way to get through this. It really is just a matter of education and people not understanding that this ban undermines EVERYONES democratic rights! By the way I had the leg. clerk fax yu over the document, I have copies, just incase, but they said the fax was confirmed.

JenSteele
June 2nd, 2005, 06:49 PM
Hi all.. Thanks so much for the pep talk I really needed it BIG TIME. Gotta keep reminding me what I'm doing here :) I know I'm not alone. But you know how it goes, you get that quiet moment where your brain is going what if what if you look at your dog and just feel very alone.

Yes, thank-you so much we got the fax. LOVE the numbers. Also confirmed those numbers haven't been kept here at all since 1997 by the Ministry of Health Services for Waterloo Region. Interesting that the Humane Society said these stats were down with no official stats to prove it.

The conspiracy continues.........

I'm in the middle of snapping feature shots of Lily and documenting. It's going really well. She's not liking the flash at all and keeps licking the lens :)

I love that friggin dog!!
Jen

JenSteele
June 2nd, 2005, 06:59 PM
Researchers.... We can't find these books...

What we need next is:

From the biology section of the biggest library in town, we need from the "K-9 STANDARDS BOOK" it may also be titled "CANINE STANDARDS BOOK", everything relating to Boxers, Labs, Staff Terriers, American Pitbull Terriers, and American Staff Terriers. Please make sure you distinguish between Staff Terrier and American Staff Terrier.

From the book jacket, we need, the author, and the copyright date.

Then we need the exact same information from the "DOG BREED STANDARDS" book. It has to be these two titles.

We need the picture that goes with the dog, and the full description. If anyone could take this book out of the library, scan the info and email a page at a time we'd be trimendously grateful. The scan has to be pristine because we have to run it through and OCR to convert it back to text and the pictures are vital.

Thanks a million!
Jen

JenSteele
June 2nd, 2005, 07:11 PM
I should explain that the reason we can't find these books is because somebody has signed them out until the 21st. So either it's other owners looking up standards or it's well.. I think we know the or :)

Jen

babyrocky1
June 2nd, 2005, 07:23 PM
RE: finding people who need legal help in KW with their accused "pits" what about speakers corner in Toronto, you can text message for 50 cents or if people who are not camera shy want to go down and have a chat about your situation, its a buck, assuming they air it, but Ive seen someone do it after one of the rallies, with his dog, so maybe some of you aspiring STARS, in the area could go on down to City and get some free publicity, but the text messaging, you guys could do Jen. Something like Looking for people appealing in pit bull deignation in KW. Maybe people from Kitchener, dont watch Speakers Corner but if even one person is watching who knows somebody in the situation, well theres nothing to lose. Anyway just a thought. Glad to hear your feeling better :)

Karin
June 2nd, 2005, 10:32 PM
Why hasn't this thread been moved to the appropriate topic like all the others?



Just asking...

Copper'sMom
June 3rd, 2005, 10:27 AM
Researchers.... We can't find these books...

What we need next is:

From the biology section of the biggest library in town, we need from the "K-9 STANDARDS BOOK" it may also be titled "CANINE STANDARDS BOOK", everything relating to Boxers, Labs, Staff Terriers, American Pitbull Terriers, and American Staff Terriers. Please make sure you distinguish between Staff Terrier and American Staff Terrier.

From the book jacket, we need, the author, and the copyright date.

Then we need the exact same information from the "DOG BREED STANDARDS" book. It has to be these two titles.

We need the picture that goes with the dog, and the full description. If anyone could take this book out of the library, scan the info and email a page at a time we'd be trimendously grateful. The scan has to be pristine because we have to run it through and OCR to convert it back to text and the pictures are vital.

Thanks a million!
Jen

You're not looking for the CKC Breed Standard books are you? It's a fat book-it may also be known as the Big Book of Dogs. I have a book like this at home. I'll double check when I get home. I don't have a computer at home, but will get to one as soon as I can to let you know!

lezzpezz
June 3rd, 2005, 10:50 AM
Researchers.... We can't find these books...

What we need next is:

From the biology section of the biggest library in town, we need from the "K-9 STANDARDS BOOK" it may also be titled "CANINE STANDARDS BOOK", everything relating to Boxers, Labs, Staff Terriers, American Pitbull Terriers, and American Staff Terriers. Please make sure you distinguish between Staff Terrier and American Staff Terrier.

From the book jacket, we need, the author, and the copyright date.

Then we need the exact same information from the "DOG BREED STANDARDS" book. It has to be these two titles.

We need the picture that goes with the dog, and the full description. If anyone could take this book out of the library, scan the info and email a page at a time we'd be trimendously grateful. The scan has to be pristine because we have to run it through and OCR to convert it back to text and the pictures are vital.

Thanks a million!
Jen


I have good news and bad news:
Good news first:

I work at the London Public Library. I have searched for both of the above titles but we don't carry either, however we do have the following:

Title The complete dog book : the photograph, history and official standard of every breed admitted to AKC registration, and the selection, training, breeding, care and feeding of pure-bred dogs.
Pub info New York : Howell Book House, 1992.
Edition 18th ed.
Note Includes index.

Is this helpful? Can find others if you wish.

Bad news: heard back from Prez of my dog group that will be at Humane society fundraiser this weekend and unfortunately, the petition for Lily is deemed a conflict, so I can't post it for you. BUT!! I have a big mouth, and I sure can talk about it!!!! Sorry, but it was worth a shot :(

lezzpezz
June 3rd, 2005, 10:57 AM
How's about this one? Can be ordered fairly rapidly thru interlibrary loan from your end and then you have a hard copy to present in person. Can search and order books on this topic from any library in Canada, by filling out a form at your local library if Interlibrary Loan service is offered. FYI :D

AUTHORTITLESUBJECTKEYWORDSTANDARD NOCALL NOMUSIC PUB NO Beacock ItemsByron ItemsCarson ItemsCentral ItemsCentral Children's ItemsCherryhill ItemsCrouch ItemsEastwood ItemsGlanworth ItemsJalna ItemsJuvenile ItemsLambeth ItemsLandon ItemsMasonville ItemsNorthridge ItemsPond Mills ItemsSherwood ItemsVisiting Library ItemsWestmount ItemsView Entire Collection


Record 1 of 3
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Title The Canadian Kennel Club book of dogs.
Pub info [Toronto, ON ] : Stoddart, 1989, c1988.
Edition Centennial edition.
Canadian Canadian



LOCATION CALL # SHELF STATUS
Cen2 Science/Technology r636.71 Can LIB USE ONLY
Jalna r636.71 Can LIB USE ONLY

Subject Dogs -- Standards -- Canada
Dog breeds -- Canada
Add author Canadian Kennel Club
Add title Book of dogs.
Descript 867 p. : ill. (some col.)
ISBN 0773721916

Also have a circulating copy that can be obtained thru ILLO!!!

twodogsandacat
June 3rd, 2005, 12:02 PM
Why hasn't this thread been moved to the appropriate topic like all the others?



Just asking...

Maybe because of the many flaws identified in this post (specifically an inability to accurately determine a breed) it belongs in the general section rather than BSL section which is of course geared to a ban on pit bulls. Seems that this thread really indicates that breed specific legislation.....isn’t breed specific at all.

chico2
June 3rd, 2005, 01:33 PM
Wow Coppersmom,I don't think that was warranted,Karin probably means,more people would see it if it was in the BSL thread...

Shamrock
June 3rd, 2005, 02:41 PM
I agree, Coppersmom. That comes off sounding a rather harsh reply.
Karin said she was "just asking". A question - not a criticism.

JenSteele
June 3rd, 2005, 05:21 PM
All the books you are all mention will work. Just remember I need the book title, the author's name and the copyright date.

THANKS A MILLION!!!

The site is going well, just have legal check it to make sure we won't get in too much hot water. We expect some, but if we can prove it all they can do is pout....

People in Kitchener are putting signs in their windows starting tomorrow that say " KITCHENER CITY COUNCIL KNEW IT WAS LIES AND DID NOTHING - SAVINGLILY.COM - THE TRUTH" ... they're doing it this way because it makes people want to find out what it's about.

We're currently printing up 100s of these signs and we'll be out on the streets handing them out tomorrow..

Thanks so much everyone!!
Jen

JenSteele
June 4th, 2005, 07:18 PM
The official website has launched now... you can go to either:

www.savinglily.com or

www.savinglilly.com

we found a lot of people were typing it in wrong...

It was a lot of work so please to the people who email us and tell us that we have gammar and spelling mistakes, we're getting to it.. .


Thanks all!
Jen

twodogsandacat
June 4th, 2005, 11:52 PM
Jen,

For the first time since Bill 132 was introduced I was left absolutely speechless.
Was it one of Bryant's lies that did it? No.
Was it a picture of a pit that had been forced to fight? No.
Was it finding the web page that listed all of the dog-related deaths in Canada over the last 20 years? No.
Was it opening my Inbox and seeing an email from Mrs. Donna Trempe? No.

All the above left me with mixed emotions but what truly left me speechless was this link at your site. http://www.savinglily.com/images/n03.jpg

This is unbelievable ......

JenSteele
June 5th, 2005, 07:50 AM
I know what you're saying. When Sandra came back with that I was floored. That's how seriously they're taking killing innocent dogs. They give you a blank piece of paper and tell you to write down you're appealing the decision and then they all want us to believe that they don't take this matter lightly????

It is so bad, such a scam, so many liers, people getting promotions and hikes up the political ladder,KW HS getting more money from this, and it's still going on???

I'll confess, I voted liberal, I've been voting liberal since 1984. That's 20 years of voting liberal. Then I look into this. I find 2 liberals start the lies, another liberal feeds the lies, another liberal ignores the lies and then yet another group of liberals start it all over again but at the provincial level all because, the conservative government who was in at the time in 1996 who heard these lies didn't bother checking into it all to see if any of it was true before they gave Kitchener the go ahead to ban breeds and take our rights away.

I don't know about the rest of you but my vote is going permanently to NDP for now on. They may not be as polished as the liberals or as savvy as the conservatives, but at least they know what the people are about.

We have a lot more lies and facts we're verifying right now... wait until you see what we have coming next... that theory on the website wasn't that far off..

GET ANGRY people, if the politicians won't change the law, we will, and we can...

Jen

JenSteele
June 5th, 2005, 10:49 AM
PLEASE EMAIL THIS TO YOUR LOCAL PARTY REPRESENTIVE FOR ALL POLITICAL PARTIES IN YOUR AREA

--------------------------------
To all concerned;

Please review www.savinglily.com

Respectfully would you please answer the following questions after you have reviewed the site:

What are your respective parties doing about this?
Why has your party it allowed to get this far?
Why is it being left to private citizens to do anything about it?
Are you a political party who actually cares enough to publicly act to show it cares about the people who vote?

Your answers, form letters, and/or lack of answers will be posted on the site. If a party won’t act to save lives that are being taken because of lies, how can we trust you for anything else?

You may respond to partyview@savinglily.com . No responses or lack of will be considered confidential.

Respectfully;

The people who vote

JessXx
June 5th, 2005, 12:22 PM
hi,
I just want to say that the website is great! :pawprint:
Good luck..

JenSteele
June 5th, 2005, 08:30 PM
We need to get the word out about the on-line petition to call for the resignation of all the councilors involved in this, stopping BSL in Kitchener/Waterloo, and re-writing the Dog By-laws....

PLEASE CONTACT ALL PEOPLE YOU KNOW IN KITCHENER AND WATERLOO.. HIT FORUMS ETC... THEY MUST BE RESIDENTS OF KITCHENER OR WATERLOO

ASK THEM TO GO TO:

either
1) http://www.savinglily.com/helplily.html - scroll down to STEP 2

OR
2) http://www.petitiononline.com/sandra69/petition.html (go directly to the petition)

Please spread the word that it's only valid if a Kitchener or Waterloo resident signs it.. .

Please please please get it out to any Kitchener and Waterloo forums you know..

THANK-YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jen

P

JenSteele
June 6th, 2005, 03:04 PM
When you have a moment, please go to :

http://pub38.bravenet.com/guestbook/3222249824

It's also a link under the Lily defense.....


Thanks to all who are sending in information. Need more when you have time.

Jen

nymph
June 6th, 2005, 03:29 PM
Come on!

One suggestion Jen/Sandra: the *make a donation* button is not very visible, any thought on moving it up?

JenSteele
June 6th, 2005, 05:46 PM
We caught him red handed with the help of the local newspaper...

Have a look at this http://www.savinglily.com/breeds.html

JenSteele
June 6th, 2005, 06:02 PM
Please don't sign the petition if you are not from Kitchener or Waterloo. It's vital that it's only Kitchener and Waterloo residents only. All of the addresses and emails and phone numbers are up to send, email, fax and snail mail the idiots who did this for everyone else to go after.

Also, it would be a good idea to contact the Kitchener Chamber of Commerce and tell them why you won't be coming to Kitchener anymore.

Thanks a bunch all!!!
Jen

lezzpezz
June 6th, 2005, 06:45 PM
All the books you are all mention will work. Just remember I need the book title, the author's name and the copyright date.


Thanks so much everyone!!
Jen

Here's another dog book with info from our library:


Author Hart, Ernest H.
Title Encyclopedia of dog breeds : histories and official standards
Pub info Neptune, N.J. / T.F.H. Publications c1975 783 p. : ill. (some col.)

lezzpezz
June 6th, 2005, 06:51 PM
Author Larkin, Peter, Dr.
Title The complete dog book : a comprehensive, practical care and training manual and a definitive encyclopedia of world breeds / Peter Larkin, Mike Stockman ; photography by John Daniels.
Pub info [S.l.] : Acropolis Books, c1997.


Title The complete dog book : the photograph, history and official standard of every breed admitted to AKC registration, and the selection, training, breeding, care and feeding of pure-bred dogs.
Pub info New York : Howell Book House, 1992.
Edition 18th ed.
Note Includes index.

Title The Kennel Club's illustrated breed standards: the official guide to registered breeds.
Pub info London : Ebury Press, 1998.


Author Caras, Roger A.
Title The Roger Caras dog book : [a complete guide to every AKC breed] : Roger Caras; photographs by Alton Anderson.
Pub info New York : M. Evans, 1996
Edition 3rd ed.
Note Includes index.

JenSteele
June 6th, 2005, 07:46 PM
Those sound great, again, we can not get any of those books here. So anyone who can get their hands on them, if you could scan the pages and send them one at a time to sandra@savinglily.com That would be GREAT!

Thanks!
Jen

raingirl
June 6th, 2005, 07:52 PM
jen, check your PMs

lezzpezz
June 7th, 2005, 08:59 AM
I don't have a scanner! I will get the books today and try to figure out how to scan the needed info to you asap. The books are scattered here and there throughout the system, so it may take a few days to order them all in to my location IF they are still found on the shelves. I will do post haste! :o

lezzpezz
June 7th, 2005, 09:15 AM
Those sound great, again, we can not get any of those books here. So anyone who can get their hands on them, if you could scan the pages and send them one at a time to sandra@savinglily.com That would be GREAT!

Thanks!
Jen


When you say scan the pages, do you mean just the title/cover page with the title, author and copyright info or do you mean scan the entire contents of the book?? I'm hoping you mean just the required info as you mentioned earlier.

I have placed holds on these items and will scoop the others today and find a scanner somewhere.....

JenSteele
June 7th, 2005, 09:38 AM
I mean to scan the pages that show the pictures of:

American Pitbull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
American Staffordshire Terrier
Labrador Retriever
Boxer

Needed are the breed standards and the pictures that go with those standards, not every breed in the book :)

Thanks so much!
Jen

JenSteele
June 7th, 2005, 10:16 AM
Please Please Please sign this if you live in Canada and tell everyone you know to sign it...

It is because of the way the Canadian Municipal Code is written that cities with BSL are able to strip dog owners of their legal rights. Even if they overturn the provincial legislation, cities are still able to do whatever they want because of this code.

PLEASE pass it on and get people to sign it as soon as you can..
Thanks!

http://www.petitiononline.com/sandra99/petition.html

lezzpezz
June 7th, 2005, 10:45 AM
I mean to scan the pages that show the pictures of:

American Pitbull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
American Staffordshire Terrier
Labrador Retriever
Boxer

Needed are the breed standards and the pictures that go with those standards, not every breed in the book :)

Thanks so much!
Jen

Okeydokey, those breeds plus the title/author/copyright info. You'll never guess what happened! I just went to pull these books and found several more on the topic, all in reference section! Then, I mentioned the need for a scanner to a co-worker, and she is GIVING me one that is an extra at her house! What are the odds of that?!? Now we're in business!!

JenSteele
June 7th, 2005, 11:52 AM
That's wonderful! It's amazing isn't it when you tell people what you're doing it for how fast they come to help.. well at least the people with a heart :)

So terriffic, thank-you so much!
Jen

lezzpezz
June 7th, 2005, 11:57 AM
Oh, she's a dog lover, so she's definitely got :love: :love: :love:

Sadie's Mom
June 8th, 2005, 03:07 AM
Wow, I just went through this whole thread. This is so not right Jen. I was in tears reading this. I can't believe this is happening to you, but I'm so proud of you for fighting so hard for Lily. You're an amazing dog-mommy. You're fighting not just for Lily, but for other dogs out there as well. BSL are absolutely disgusting.

You, Lily and your family are in my thoughts and prayers honey. :fingerscr

JenSteele
June 8th, 2005, 12:30 PM
Thanks so much. We're getting a bit discouraged with the lack of signatures that count on the Kitchener petition and in general the lack of signatures... we think the media and other politicians are waiting to see if Kitchener is finally taking all of this seriously... and so far, not much of a turnout... But on the good side, there are signs going up all over Berry Vrbonavic's and John Smola's ward saying "Kitchener City Council Knew About the Lies and Did Nothing" ... slowly but surely it's picking up pace... it just never feels fast enough does it?

In walking around John Smola's ward yesterday there were people who work for the City of Kitchener who own dogs, agree that it affects them but wouldn't sign for fear of losing their job with the city... You know something is wrong if people are that frightened...


:)

rottndakota
June 9th, 2005, 02:28 AM
Hello to all !

My name is Lee Ann O'Reilly and I am the president of the Dog Legislation Council of Canada. www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org

Right now our council is reviewing Lily's case and attempting to find out more as to who is in charge of identifying seized dogs.It is terribly wrong to say the least that a humane society would particpate in making the seizure of any dog living in a loving home permissible.In fact this whole case and many others we are working on offends our sense of justice,it offends our rights under the Charter of Rights.

It is a difficult situation to say the least as pit bull and pit bull like dogs in KW have been taken and euthanized for no other reason than breed bigotry.

Sadly,all over Ontario we will be watching in horror as innocent families and their dogs are punished for the past crimes of the negligent dog owners as of August 29th 2005.BILL 132 MUST BE DEFEATED.

I wish to take some time here and clarify some points.

The DLCC was created by responsible dog owners who were fed up of being alone ,fighting BSL and praying that someother organization would stand up and take on the fight.We stand for ALL RESPONSIBLE DOG OWNERS.

THE DOGS OF ONTARIO NEED YOUR HELP.


PLEASE HELP US FIGHT BREED SPECIFIC LEGISLATION IN ONTARIO.


Why should you care about the proposed ban of pitbulls, Staffies and Amstaffs in Ontario? Especially if you're in another part of Canada, or the world? After all, "the sacrifice of the few if the vast majority is spared", what could be easier?

This is why. Breed specific legislation ("BSL") historically bans one breed at a time, then another, then another. BSL slowly erodes dog owners' rights. Once one breed has been banned, the precedent is set and all breeds are at risk; indeed, all dogs are at risk. Under BSL, the list of banned breeds usually gets longer over time. Italy is a prime example with its BSL targeting over 90 breeds, including breeds usually considered benign such as the bearded collie.

BSL enforcement relies on the arbitrary judgement of police and animal control officers who may not have the training, expertise or even the legal right (depending on legal interpretation of the Canada Animal Pedigree Act) to identify a dog's breed. Seizure of what the officer thinks is a banned-breed dog may result in the dog being euthanized or sold to a research laboratory.

Ontario's Bill 132 permits an officer to enter your home without a warrant and seize or destroy your dog, regardless of breed. Destroy your dog in your home. It happened in England and Germany, it can happen here.

Are you now looking at your dog and starting to feel very uneasy, even a bit afraid?

You should.
Your breed may be next.

The DLCC has now joined forces with four others - the American Staffordshire Terrier Club of Canada, the Golden Horseshoe American Pit Bull Terrier Club, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club of Canada, and Shirley Bell of Bellcrest Boxers - as Banned Aid, to fight BSL in Ontario.

Banned Aid has engaged Clayton Ruby as Banned Aid's legal counsel to fight BSL on behalf of Ontario dog owners and breeders at the provincial level. This fight is going to be expensive; the early estimate for the legal challenge is $100,000.

We need your financial support to mount this battle against BSL in Ontario and possibly establish national precedent. Every dollar will help. There are several ways you can donate.

1. You can mail your cheque payable to the DLCC to:
Cathy Prothro
351 Pleasant Street
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia B2Y 3S4
Canada

2. For your convenience you can deposit from any bank directly into the Banned Aid Legal Fund by depositing to:
Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce,
Penhorn Mall,
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Account 00513 010 1526839

3. You can also make an online payment from your financial institution's website by sending a bill payment to treasurer@doglegislationcouncilcanada.org

4. You may prefer to donate by PAY PAL. Please go to www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org and click on the "Donate!" link for the Pay Pal tool.

5. Send cheques or money orders directly to Mr Ruby at the following address,c/o BANNED AID LEGAL CHALLENEGE FUND

Ruby & Edwardh
11 Prince Arthur Ave.
Toronto, Ont.
M5R1B2
416 964 9664

The Dog Legislation Council of Canada ("DLCC") is a Canada-wide non-profit organization dedicated to promoting responsible dog ownership, assisting provincial and municipal governments to develop effective licensing and enforcement legislation, and educating the public regarding dog bite prevention. The DLCC does not support any legislation that targets a breed instead of the real problem - the irresponsible owner. Its members are expected to abide by and promote the DLCC Code of Ethics.
The DLCC is a proud member of the Banned Aid Legal Challenge Fund.

Contact: president@doglegislationcouncilcanada.org or vicepresident@doglegislationcouncilcanada.org.
Website: http://www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org/

For more information, please contact:

info@doglegislationcouncilcanada.org

www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org

www.bannedaid.com

LeeAnn O'Reilly RN,PBMH
Pres.Dog Legislation Council of Canada
president@doglegislationcouncilcanada.org
www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org
www.bannedaid.com

JenSteele
June 9th, 2005, 04:06 AM
To the President of the DLCC, so far you've been a great help in pointing us in the different directions we have to go and pointing us in a few wrong ones but that's par for the course when you weren't aware of the legislation we were fighting here.

We haven't heard from anyone at the DLCC since we sent our email out to all the organizations asking who will be joining us on the 27th. We still haven't received a reply. We sent in Lily's bio as requested and were told that every effort would be made to find her a place if it goes poorly. But we've called and sent emails and nobody has responded to say they even got her bio and her picture. We figured you were too busy on to other things and that's why nobody has contacted us for almost a week. We understand you can't be everywhere and can't help everyone but one little email letting us know the picture went up somewhere? We took that into our own hands now like we did our legal council and on foot to get our story out and to the people who would pass it along.

Yes of course BSL must end in Ontario, it must end everywhere period. The provincial government pointed to Kitchener in several of their Legislative Assembly addresses as the prime example of how BSL works because it's been here for almost 8 years. In their addresses they quoted the lies and unproven facts that our councilors used to get it in. Yes BSL must be stopped in Ontario and in Canada, but don't forget there's a clause in there that says if a Municipality has a more severe legislation, like the one Kitchener does, that it is the legislation that will be supersede the provincial one. I'm sorry but if I have a choice of killing my dog or muzzling my dog I'll take the lesser of the two evils and work to have the one that would have my dog killed abolished until I can turn my efforts to the other.

Our website was hit by the ontario legislature 122 times today and by Kitchener City Hall 94 times. On our own we've started a petition to get peoples rights back federally, and to force the resignation of councilors and the end of BSL on the municipal level. Your organization promised us media coverage and help from politicians, we're still waiting for Alex Pierson to show up and Kormos to call.

Nobody told us that your council is looking into it. We contacted Clayton Ruby ourselves and didn't hear back from him. So we hired a firm from Ottawa ourselves who are familiar with these sorts of fights, municipal issues, win them, and agree with how the provincial government is holding up Kitchener as an example, paying for it out of our own pocket the way 100s of people are having to do every month across the country. We didn't give anyone else permission to act as our council and we're satisfied with whom we've chosen because they took the time to listen to us and didn't make us feel like we're not important enough to return a phone call. We know, and so does everyone else what should have happened was efforts were made in every city to fight BSL so the provincial government wouldn't have attempted this.. now we, the private citizens are left to cleaning up our cities and we'll do it.. and when we kick it out of Kitchener we're on to the next one..

I'm sorry if we interferred with the focus, but this is our dog and our family in our city and we're not giving her up because we're supposed to focus on a provincial agenda... Even if the province is won, Kitchener will keep killing until somebody stops it here and every city that has a stronger legislation will keep killing unless there's ALSO people in the cities working to fight there as well, and not just BSL. From the city level we have municipal codes to deal with, political agendas for every party, media that helps the city hide the bad stuff and we get to do all this all by ourselves.

We have a law firm, we have a place for Lily and we have a fight on our hands because the good people in this forum came rushing to our side and wouldn't let us get discouraged and helped us continue fighting when your emails and phonecalls stopped.

I believe in what you doing at the DLCC, but we were abandoned and then you swoop in post this suddenly making our quest as private citizens not an organization, shutting our business down to fight, tredging the streets to get petitions signed, people who have never met us rushing to get us information, putting pressure on politicians at ALL levels of government, every party, our sleepness nites of searching for the truth and revealing things that were never posted before anywhere... our own little fight in our own little corner of the world now looks insignificant. We weren't doing this for which organization will take down BSL first, we're doing this because we can feel the hearts of every person out there going through the same thing.

I apologize if anyone feels we've wasted your time. And for those who have been so generous in helping us, and to the few people who donated what they could to help us with this struggle if you feel it should go to the DLCC instead, then that's what well do. We'll find other ways to keep going... we vowed to the people in this forum before we contacted you that we wouldn't give up from the day they came rushing to our side and we promise we won't.

We'll struggle through this without an agenda other than to stand shoulder to shoulder will others like us... as the people we've always been fighting for what we believe in either way... We were told another owner contacted you some time ago and then you never heard from her again... I hope she didn't feel as abandoned by the DLCC as we do now..

Sorry all... apparently our hometown fight isn't important enough to warrant asking for your help...

Jen

Schwinn
June 9th, 2005, 09:04 AM
I promised to help you, Jen, and that's where I'll be sending my donation. I'm sorry to hear that it sounds as though you aren't getting the help we thought you would. In my opinion, until the ban goes province wide, we need to fight this on the individual level, so that's where I'll be focusing my funds for now.

JenSteele
June 9th, 2005, 10:38 AM
Thanks so much Schwinn... once again somebody restores our faith in people

We're still fuming a little bit over that post but were back and focused on fighting probably even harder now knowing that we really are in this as private citizens doing it for ourselves. Our lawyer may not be costing us a retainer of 250,000 but ours, interested in helping us instead of being in the papers, is already getting results...

It's really unfortunate that all of these organizations who say they're all banned together seem to all be fighting different independent battles. Every organization we spoke to gave us a different game plan except for the Advocates for the Underdog who by email pointed us in the direction we needed to go for helping us do what we needed to do first without any other agenda than making sure we were focused. We were a bit disappointed that we haven't heard from them much but at least with them they started us off in the right direction and we know they're fighting in Windsor which has even more unfair outcomes than Kitchener so my hat is off to them for standing shoulder to shoulder with the people there without any agenda but to help.

I think the worst advice from an organization we were given was to get the breed standards for Boxer and Lab and try to prove she's that instead of focusing on the breed standards they say she is. Much easier to say something is not than to say something is. We spent a lot of wasted hours documenting every inch of Lily to be advised by the lawyer, who's done this before, to focus on the other breed standards. Again I can't stress to people more to get the word out to get a lawyer.. The organizations didn't even know that we could call the the Law Society of Upper Canada for a 1/2 hour for $6.00 to get much needed advice or a second opinion to ensure we picked the right lawyer. They know now.

On our own we found out that Ward McAlister made up his own Canadian version of what a pitbull is that he's been using to judge dogs since 1997 or that he said publicly that a pit bull isn't a breed. We found that out, not through an organization but by personally harassing the local press until, while we're not getting front page, they're at least feeding us information that is helping us and to redeem themselves. That's a vital piece of information that would have helped a lot of cities fight their own Humane Society's designation when another Humane Society has publicly stated what a pit bull is and is not.

On our own we pushed the local Health and Safety commission to give us information that was not stated publicly and shared it with these organizations. On our own we made the calls to get the stats on the number of dogs Kitchener is actually killing and the percentage of mistakes the KW HS is making which a member of the DLCC said they didn't now about. We cross referenced the information testified to what was said and made sure 10 times over everything they said can be proven to be a lie and every time a foundation of proof shows a little waiver we make the calls again to get the information to make sure all of our information is 100% and we're still doing it so that if by some remote chance a media source actually comes to hear our story as promised we're givening them the information correctly and intelligently and making statements that educate people instead of misleading them.

And the only reason we've been able to do this is because of this forum running in to help people they've never seen and before even seeing a picture of a dog they never met giving us encouragement while reps from organizations were saying at the right angle Lily could look like pitbull. If it weren't for all of you the pitbull forums and the boxer forums and the many independent websites wouldn't have found us or we wouldn't have found them... We wouldn't have the energy or the hope to keep going... and we wouldn't have found a way to keep the rage at bay so we can focus and do things in the right order..

We can't thank the people in here enough for the time they're devoting to this.. who aren't ignoring our pleas for help and who are answering our emails... without all of you, it would certainly feel like its entirely hopeless...

I will never stop thanking all of you... and when BSL is done in this country I hope everybody out there won't be pointing to us or an organization or a lawyer as the people who stopped it.. we just picked up the ball when one person was too weary to fight anymore.. I hope everyone will point to Dr. Gary Goeree the man who faught for no reason to but say "This is wrong" for almost 9 years and say that was one hell of gutzy move and thank him personally for having the moxy to do the homework that people could fight with.. A man who because he knew it was wrong subjected himself to the anguishing torment of three terms of sitting on that insane appeal committee watching people's hearts break as they pleaded for their dog's lives hoping that he could convince the others not to kill another dog.. Without him, there'd be no fight to win. That man deserves the Order of Canada when this is all done.


Jen

nymph
June 9th, 2005, 11:03 AM
Jen, my donation was to help Lily and to Lily only. I'd rather save one dog at a time.

Angeleyes1437
June 9th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Hello all... I live in the US...NYC to be exact, and I cannot believe the BSL's in some places. If it can happen to you, it can happen to me and I'm willing to do all that I can to help you.

I have a 9 month old American Pit Bull Terrier... I got him after my 17 year old mini poodle died. He is just as sweet if not SWEETER than she was! There is NO SUCH thing as a bad breed...just bad owners. No dog should be banned due to it's breed,...after all we are the ones who have created these breeds. If anything ban who can own strong breeds... people should need a license to own a dog - it would prevent animal abuse as well. Ironic that they will spend money putting these dogs down instead of making money having people get a license to own a dog. I've donated a slew of money to PETA only to recently find out they promote the "Pit Bull" operations of putting down the majority of "Pit Bull" classified breeds in shelters regardless of their demeanor... just because. I mean has everyone gone crazy? Do we believe anything? Sure... the Doberman's brain swells and makes them turn on their owner... Pit Bulls have lock jaw, lol.. I mean seriously- who can believe these myths? I am losing all hope in the human race...only if dogs ruled the world.

Worst case senario if you need help you can always send your pup to NYC and I will care for her until you get everything straightened out. Anything I can do to help you out.

I am going to start finding out what I can do in the US to not only prevent this from ever happening but also what else can help you all over in Canda.

JenSteele
June 9th, 2005, 11:38 AM
Nymph thank-you so much.. Angeleyes if our plans fall through here we'll be meeting you at the border to hand Lily over until we can move out of this insane place...

I used to donate to PETA too until I found out they were just another organization that was more interested in their name than their mandate... much like the Humane Society chapters here who are still enforcing this insanity.. When did city animal control contracts become their new mandate and how come nobody has had the nerve to challenge the charity laws in this country to force them to knock it off or at the very least loose their chapter designation?

It is crazy... when people fight politics with politics it goes nowhere... Look at Brian Tobin who refused to play the political game the way it's always been played and kept those fishing rights for Newfoundlanders... Look at Pierre Trudeau who shrugged when the political game tried to stop us from having our own Charter of Rights and Freedoms... Look at Brian Mulroney's mother marching on the steps of parliment against her own son, the Prime Minister at that time, when he tried to de-index pensions... OR Sheila Copps who dared to show independent thought was still alive and well in the liberal party giving us hope that just maybe a true leader was coming to federal politics again - she may not have won the war but she sure stirred up the courage for battle in many of us.. I strongly believe that you have to be unwilling to play the game to change the game and no matter how hard they try to get you to play by their rules you dig your heals in and get the voice of the people to loudly say ENOUGH!... I've always believed that way and so have many of the great people in Canada and the United States who made any real difference... if the rules are bad, they have to be changed and that's all .. black and white with out grey area answers from politicians who only care about us at election time..

Ok.. off my soapbox and on to Lily... again thank-you all so much
Jen

lezzpezz
June 9th, 2005, 11:38 AM
I think the worst advice from an organization we were given was to get the breed standards for Boxer and Lab and try to prove she's that instead of focusing on the breed standards they say she is. Much easier to say something is not than to say something is.

Jen[/QUOTE]

So do you just want the standards for Amstaff/Pit Bull and NOT boxer or lab? I have several books on breed standards ready to copy/scan. Just say the word.....

JenSteele
June 9th, 2005, 11:45 AM
Yes sorry.. just the anti-lily standards.. I should have made that clear.. thank you so much!!!

Schwinn
June 9th, 2005, 01:15 PM
Ok.. off my soapbox and on to Lily... again thank-you all so much
Jen

I don't think I'd get on Lily...I'm sure she's strong, but I don't think anyone should stand on thier dog. ;)

Don't worry Jen, we've got your back. And I think a lot of us would whether it affected us or not.

One thing I've been doing is passing out your web link. Hopefully others have as well.

lezzpezz
June 9th, 2005, 01:28 PM
Okay, Jen, here's the scoop. I have successfully scanned onto a disc the following breeds from the following books:

Canadian Kennel Club book, published 1982: Obviously, Pitbull not an entry ;)
but got the other breed(s) requested, photos included.

The Kennel Club's Illustrated Breed Standards, 1998, (British): Staffy (I think, had to return to reference area and can't remember which breed I copied), only,w/photo etc.

AKC's The Complete Dog Book 18th edition (1992): Got AmStaff Terrier, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and I threw in the Bull Terrier for added umph.

All title pages included with copyright, author and title information. If you don't see the specific breeds you were looking for, it is because they were not entries in the books. I only scanned the standards for what I could find in them, as per your list. Should be fairly straightforward as to which dogs came from which book.

The scans are quite large to send by email, according to the fellow who did the scanning. Would you like me to snail-mail the disc? Then you can have it for your records and to copy and distribute to whom you see fit. Let me know and I will do whatever you decide :pawprint:

JenSteele
June 9th, 2005, 04:06 PM
Yes please!!!

AND THANK-YOU SO MUCH!!!!

Snail Mail to:

Sandra Mitchell
123 Birch Avenue
Kitchener, Ontario
N2H 4W6

rottndakota
June 10th, 2005, 03:08 AM
OK,

First things first.

The DLCC has contacted everyone to include Alix Pierson along with other media people we thought would be interested in doing a story on your situation.

As for Clayton Ruby,his retainer is 20,000 and if I am not mistaken he is recovering still from open heart surgery.He didnt give us a break at all on the price and he doesnt do it pro bono or reduced fees,period.Heck he doesnt return our phone calls either.

Members of our council were THERE and fought KW bsl LONG BEFORE it became law.Long before many even knew what BSL stood for,our members were out there speaking out.

Members of our council have been fighting tooth and nail,some with others and far too many all by themselves for over 20 years in Canada and the USA.

These people make up the DLCC Board.They have been there where you are and so have I.I fought BSL in my home province pretty much all by myself,when even my own breed club turned a blind eye as newfoundland was not deemed to be a really important place to help out with.I have banged my head against many a brick wall Hun,and was turned down ,manipulated and decieved by clubs,organizations etc all that had either the funds and or other resources to help.

Believe it or not,many of us are still working behind the scenes to find resolution for you and your dog.The problem is,no one in power is listening.They didnt listen in the public hearings for Bill 132 and they are not now.They will continue to turn a blind eye and continue to decieve the general public that BSL is the answer to dog bites and fatalities.

It is not until the average good dog owners stand up for ALL dogs will we see an end to BSL.How many here never spoke out did anything until their dogs were threatened with BSL?Far too many think their dogs wont ever be banned,but what is happening is an all out attack on dog ownership.Today the pit bull,tomorrow the rottweiler,or the doberman.And the only thing that gives a poodle owner for example any comfort in ignoring the horror is that the negligent dog owners who willfully train their dog for agression,have not been forced to use a poodle,when there are so many other breeds that fit their sick needs.

I have written on your behalf to city council,I have posted this story and all the contact emails for council and the various shelters and rescues in Ontario.

I posted as well to a every anti bsl email list I know of,even to show dog lists.Your story has gone all the way down into the USA by means of people my BSL-UPDATES list.I personally have emailed your story to every group and organization I am affiliated with in North America.

For those of you out there mistakenly believe our council is rolling in cash or free time let me tell you our council is soley funded out of our own pockets.EVERY SINGLE PENNY we call our own has gone into BANNED AID COALITION.

We are not some faceless group getting money from the public to pay our personal bills incurred by fighting BSL.Each and every member of the DLCC does EVERYTHING for free.Even our 20 per year membership fee as well has gone to pay the escalating legal fees in preparing to fight Bill 132.

I applaud your efforts.Trust me when I say,NO ONE in our council is asking you to stop.WE ARE SAYING GO GO GO !! I just wish I had more of you in the DLCC !

If we were not facing such a monumental task such as taking a provincial goverment to court then YES we would be parked in front of your door.

The bottom line is,we do not have the man power you may think we do inside the DLCC.What we have are some very hard workers and some people that dedicate their lives to this fight.It is because we are working for all dog owners on the more complex fields that we do not have anything left at the end of our days to take on one on one cases soley.We are just spread far too thin as it is.

JenSteele
June 10th, 2005, 03:34 AM
I didn't say you weren't doing good work. It is however in violation of the forum rules for you to post off topic, flame others, campaign, and start arguments. I sent you an email on this subject, I would advise you to read it.
With regard to your lawyer choice, there are many animal rights lawyers who would be happy to work pro-bono, or at least at a significantly reduced fee. It may be a good idea to consider alternate council.

With regard to your manpower, I understand completely, even more so because we have shut everything down to fight for our Lily. Unlike a non-profit organization and a volunteer group where the people involved normally have jobs elsewhere, we do not make any alternate income while we're fighting for our dog. Our dog's first appeal is on the 27th of this month, not August 29th, so you'll forgive us if we expect that when promises are made to come through for us that the urgency of time is understood and at least a phone call in weeks time would be prudent.

That being said, iff you have positive input or advice on our situtation here, I invite you to participate along with everyone who has worked very hard in here to help us through this with no other agenda than because they can feel the pain our family is going through. But please leave your campaigning for your organization at the door..


Thanks
Jen

twodogsandacat
June 10th, 2005, 06:56 AM
The Posting by the DLCC:
I will continue to support the DLCC (and the coalition) and believe in Clayton Ruby who has successfully won cases against the government in the past. However I did find the original posting by the DLCC a little out of place and it made me a little uncomfortable. Still being aware of the case they are preparing to fight against BSL as a whole I do know they need funds and trust me I know the hours they work. Still it was not the place to try and raise funds without first focusing on the issue at hand but I'm over that.

The Issue at Hand:
Winning that fight against Bill 132 won’t be of much benefit however if the current laws allow municipalities to continue to enact BSL. When Bill 132 is defeated we can expect many municipalities to quickly enact their own bans. Lily’s case is important for this reason and also because from all we know Lily has never done anything wrong other than looking like a pit….and from where I stand there is nothing wrong with that.

Jen and many on this forum ( I am truly impressed with people picking things up after work and scanning books) have done an incredible amount of work that will have future benefit to all whom own pits or mixed breed dogs that may ‘look like’ they have some pit in them. :)

:ca:

JenSteele
June 10th, 2005, 07:07 AM
Thanks so much for coming! We appreciate it very much. For those of you who cannot make it because of work, families and the distance we do understand and appreciate all the support you have shown... sincerely..

A warning to all, there is currently some organization who is going around selling bracelets and leashes saying it's to raise funds for Lily & her family... if anyone knows who this organization is could you please give us a call or email me? We have not given any organization profit or non-profit any permission other than some of the people organizing the BSL march in Toronto this weekend to do anything of the sort of fund raising on our behalf.

Thank you!
Jen

rottndakota
June 10th, 2005, 07:26 PM
I thought this was a open forum for discussion on BSL in general,and I came in here to find out what was happening with your case and others such as Keisha and Zeus.

You are of course correct in stating I am campaigning. I will always campaign for the rights of all dog owners.

If you wish to speak to me directly,then email me and I will give you my phone number.Lets see if there is any thing else we can do to assist you.

Angeleyes1437
June 10th, 2005, 09:41 PM
[QUOTE]Angeleyes if our plans fall through here we'll be meeting you at the border to hand Lily over until we can move out of this insane place...

The offer is on the table God forbid it comes to that... but you never know. Everyone needs to sink their heels in the ground and put an end to this madness. See I did some research and in Canada they are able to make laws like this- where in the US they cannot. However, it still needs to be prevented better. As for you guys up in Canada... one voice may rarely be heard loud, but many voices will be heard. You are fighting this and it's truely inspirational. If there is anything at all I can do from over here let me know. I am going to send out my donations... but financial support is just a small part of the fight.

JessXx
June 10th, 2005, 10:25 PM
Hi Jen,
I was just wondering how are things going? I'm not sure who the organization/person is thats doing that is, but hopefully you find out soon.
I also want to say that you are simply amazing and I can't BELIEVE what level you are going to, to save your dog. I mean I would too, but its still amazing what youre doing and it must be very hard to deal with. Lily has a great owner....
I hope you continue this....
GOOD LUCK! I would help more, but I live in Edmonton ALberta... :ca: so, I can't help much but I'm doing what I can.
~JESS :fingerscr

JenSteele
June 10th, 2005, 10:41 PM
Angeleyes ... thanks so much! and yep.. it's crazy what they can legislate here... but you do what you have to do to keep going :) rottndakota... Steve has our numbers..

Jessex.. Update.. great lawyers giving us solid advice... every time we learn something we're adding it to the site so that others going through this will learn the ins and outs of dealing with this..

Lily is doing great! Thank gawd she doesn't know what humans are capable of... Healthy as ever and looking forward to her vet visit next week.. She just loves her Vet here.. Vet is verifying all the measurements we took already and it's that time of year for heartworm meds.. and all that fun jazz

Since the we found lawyers with hearts we're sleeping more than 2 hours a night...I got a solid 5 last night.. I don't think we would have been sleeping at all if it weren't for all of you..

I'd love to hear some happy puppy stories and see everyone's kids.. we're going to be doing the rest of documenting lily's features Sunday and Monday.. the thesis on what idiots they KWHS et al are is about 14 pages long now and that's not including pictures.. :) I know more about every inch of Lily than I ever wanted to (wink) or that she ever wanted me to :)

I wanted to add something here.. After the exhausting hours of research we've put in to disproving the she's a pit bull crap.. I have to say I've learned a great deal about American Pit bull Terriers and when we knock BSL out of this friggin city and province Lily is going to get a little APBT brother... I'm falling in love with the breed :)

Spirits are good, energy is climbing back up and we're gonna fight the good fight for everyone's babies..

Hugs to you all!
Jen

JessXx
June 11th, 2005, 12:17 AM
:D glad to hear you're in such good spirits Jen... :)

lezzpezz
June 11th, 2005, 08:18 AM
Yes please!!!

AND THANK-YOU SO MUCH!!!!

Snail Mail to:

Sandra Mitchell
123 Birch Avenue
Kitchener, Ontario
N2H 4W6

I am chucking it into an envelope as we speak and will post on Monday. I'm gonna burn a few copies to keep on hand on my end for future use. Good luck and you are most welcome! ;)

twodogsandacat
June 11th, 2005, 10:07 AM
I wanted to add something here.. After the exhausting hours of research we've put in to disproving the she's a pit bull crap.. I have to say I've learned a great deal about American Pit bull Terriers and when we knock BSL out of this friggin city and province Lily is going to get a little APBT brother... I'm falling in love with the breed

This is the same reason I also have fallen in love with the breed. Still not convinced that it's the right one for me the next time we get another dog but I can assure you that the reasons have nothing to do with 'inherently dangerous'. We just may want something a little smaller that has less exercise requirements (we are getting older). Then again it may keep us young so don't rule anything out.

Keep focused stay strong. The majority in most cases is an uneducated majority.

JenSteele
June 11th, 2005, 11:28 AM
There's a wonderful branch in the Vet community ... Behavioral Vetranarians. I'm pretty sure your local vet can recommend you to one who specializes in behaviour. You tell them your lifestyle, energy level, how much time you have to devote to a dog, current pet situation, how much space you have, etc ... etc... and they're good enough to tell you what breed is appropriate for you, if you should get a puppy or a mature dog.. etc.. etc.. They've done years of study on the behaviour of many breeds... I couldn't tell you though if they've published anything ...

You know just touring around our area this morning, we've run into Mastiffs, Rottweillers, German Shepards, Dobermans, and any dog you can think of that's been accused of being vicious by breed.. and the ones we've run into are tame as anything, sweet... what I did get bit by was a little terrier mix on a lunge leash.. Why somebody needs a 15 foot leash for a little tiny dog no bigger than your foot is beyond me. That woman looked so scared when I turned around to grab my leg. I laughed, suggested she get a shorter leash and told her to consider getting her pup into some socializing training. And then I told her about Lily the dog that doesn't bite. She looked more afraid than she did when her dog bit me. I had the woman right up until I started telling her about all the APBT researh I had done and that I'd acutally love to get one... She told me I was crazy and rushed off with "killer" and her 15 foot leash... Is it me or is it really like chipping away at marble to get to granit?

Jen

JessXx
June 11th, 2005, 12:49 PM
yea, I know what you're saying...
I ran into this rotty... she was soooooooo sweet...
and not even a hint of anxiousness. She was loyal and
sweet. I think that breeds get a bad rep. because of
certian owners doing SOMETHING WRONG! Just like certian
groups of people get bad reps. cause of past actions by others.
I think all dogs have the right stuff tobe good (so to speak) and its all
a matter of how they are treated, just like humans... :)

JessXx
June 11th, 2005, 12:52 PM
oh and about that little dog...
:rolleyes: why would ANYBODY have a frigen 15 foot leash
for a little dog like that?>

JenSteele
June 11th, 2005, 04:23 PM
Haven't a clue on the leash.. I don't believe in lunge leashes at all myself. Fine for a doggie park but not taking your dog on a walk in the city... it's bad enough by-laws say 8 feet, but a 15 feet? By the time you real the dog in they've done what they wanted to do..

I really think there should be a standard IQ test for people before they can have a dog.. lately with all the things I've been hearing.. I'm starting to think the process should be just as difficult as adopting a baby.. loving home, attentive parents, yadda yadda..

We're working on a process of graduated licensing for dogs.. the same way you get a drivers license now with minimum requirements at each stage of dog's life.. it would piss a lot of people off but don't you think those are the people you'd want to piss off so they won't get a dog and be irresponsible with it? Just me thinking out loud....

Jen

JessXx
June 11th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Jen, I have to agree with you~
Adopting an animal is so easy, but they really
are just like a child... just like a human, other than
the fact that they depend on us to teach them and to feed them, to take care of them. EVERY life should be valued and I don't think animals should be any different.
Thats a good idea. And another thing is adopting animals for the children :rolleyes: yes we all think its so much fun (of course WE know the truth) but if there is nobody who is willing to take care of the animal and you dump the responsibility on the children then its just another 'unwanted' animal.
there SHOULD be something in place to help with animals like that, and some sort of animal advocate... more than what we have now... more serious.

And the leash thing-
If somebody can't handel a dog on a leash thats that big (with that small of a dog) why have a leash that big??
I don't know why people are so stupid--
I just think people should be looking for people like that and
HELP them or take away their animals...

JessXx
June 11th, 2005, 07:08 PM
Haven't a clue on the leash.. I don't believe in lunge leashes at all myself. Fine for a doggie park but not taking your dog on a walk in the city...

Jen

And to add to that...
*In the city there SHOULD be a law only allowing 8 ft leashes... and ONLY THAT! Because its dangerous on so many levels to have a leash even that big...
but anyways... I could ramble on and on for hours so I'll ttyl :pawprint:

JenSteele
June 11th, 2005, 09:15 PM
Yep dogs and babies, it should be all the same rules... and in some respects the reverse needs to be true too.. can you imagine if you had to get a breeder's license before you could have a child? (smirk) That would make a few people think..

Yes, definitely the leash laws are way too lax... I still think 8 feet is way too long myself.. but yep.. that conversation could go on for days :)

Just wanted to let you know that the petition links are still active even tho there isn't a link on the site...

For Kitchener Residents Only: http://www.petitiononline.com/sandra69/

For Canadian Residents Only: http://www.petitiononline.com/sandra99/

Any thoughts on if we should start an American Opinion Petition???

All is calm here, happy puppy .. and spirits are up :)

Love to see everyone's babies when you have time to post their pictures...

Jen

JessXx
June 11th, 2005, 11:24 PM
Hey Jen,
Thanks for that link for the canadians (I think an american one is a good idea too.)
I didnt realize there was a canadian pention as well.

Thanks again and I did sign it!! :highfive:

JenSteele
June 12th, 2005, 10:49 AM
We'll come up with a US petition later this week.

We put up a pre-election poll here:

http://www.savinglily.com/statements.html

Please take a moment to vote... doesn't matter what part of Canada you're from.. AND PLEASE pass on to people to vote... Parties are actually checking our statements area...

Thanks!!!!!!!
Jen

JessXx
June 12th, 2005, 08:43 PM
:highfive: Nice!!!
Good luck w/ that, keep us updated. (as u are!)
:thumbs up

JenSteele
June 13th, 2005, 02:03 AM
We have to finish up all of Lily's comparisons and get more pictures done to ship off to the lawyers..

I'll try to post once a day for the next few days to keep you all up to date.

I want to thank everyone again who got all of the research done and have sent it and are sending it and for those who have donated to our legal fund.. and to everyone who's hung in there and are hanging in there with us to keep us going... you all really do help us keep believing in humanity while Kitchener council tries to break that belief down... You've really made us realize that we're not going through this alone and that means so much.

I'll post again tomorrow night and let you all know how things are going...

Thanks again everyone!!!!
Jen

Luvmypit
June 13th, 2005, 02:04 PM
I they are reading it then I think it would be smart to open a section such as this forum where we can talk about it and voice our opinions. The more 'voters' they see that are not impressed will definately cause them to pause and listen.
Why not open a discussion area??

JenSteele
June 13th, 2005, 02:10 PM
We put up a guestbook last week. You can find that under The Lily Defense. I'll look into having a forum added.

:)

Jen

Luvmypit
June 13th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Ahh perfect! I found it and posted. I hope all is well and your site is the best.

I think its great mainly because you put these politicians on the spot so that they are forced to care because the public is watching. It makes them accountable and I wish we would have done the same when Bill132 was being brought forth. Keep up the good work. I love seeing politicians squirm!

I have to apoligize I accidently I think a couple days ago signed your Kitchener only petition. I was overzealous in wanting to help and just skimmed through and signed that letter and faxed it to you and then signed each petition without even looking until I was done and actually read the stuff you posted. I am so sorry is there a way for you to remove me. First name is Colleen. :sorry:

JenSteele
June 13th, 2005, 08:07 PM
Don't worry about signing the wrong petition. We're circulating them in Kitchener as well :)

We're still searching for a polititician who cares about voters... we'll keep you up to date on that. Our lawyer gave us a tonne of homework for 2nite, so I have to keep this short.

Lily is getting tired of having a camera flashed in her face :eek:

We've got a bunch of coffee brewing...

Thanks again all!!!!!!!
Jen

JenSteele
June 14th, 2005, 12:52 PM
Anyone care to express their opinions to the people in this forum:

http://www.canadaka.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=97521#97521