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Nice family buys nice pet store puppy

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 23rd, 2005, 11:00 AM
So I am on this other forum ask this person about their dog as its the same kind of dog that I want. Their dog seems great, they seem great. a lot like us actually. So I ask them how they picked their breeder and what questions they asked. So it turns out they got her from a pet store and they just lucked out that she turned out. Then I'm told they wouldn't reccomend getting a dog from a pet store as its probably a puppymill dog and their thinking of getting a second dog from the same store.

kandy
May 23rd, 2005, 02:15 PM
WOW - they are very lucky that the pup was healthy and really pushing their luck to get another one! It's folks like this that keep the puppymills in business! :mad:

Dahlia
May 23rd, 2005, 05:33 PM
Well, a lot of people don't know that there's anything wrong with buying a pup at a petstore. I had no idea until I came to this board in March. And backyard breeders? That's about all we have around here. My sister in law has a 10 yr old Shih-tzu and she went to a puppy mill and got him. Never had a minute's trouble out of him. My MIL just told me a couple of months ago that's where he came from and I told her what I had read on here about puppy mills. She said that since then she has heard bad stuff about them but had no idea at the time.

Dahlia
May 23rd, 2005, 05:39 PM
Just wanted to add that I got Sophie from a back yard breeder, I guess you could say. I found out a week after I got her that she had coccidia. We got that taken care of and then found out she had demodex mange. She's over that now, too. But at no point did I wish I hadn't gotten her. She's one of my babies. But I got her for free so the money I spent on vet bills was nothing compared to what a lot of people spend buying the dog initially. If I had shelled out big bucks for a puppy and then found out she was sick I would have been very upset with the breeder. It still upsets me that he didn't have a little more regard for his dogs, though. So now I know what you all mean about the BYB's and the puppy mills.

kandy
May 23rd, 2005, 05:58 PM
Although I had some prior knowledge of puppy mills and backyard breeders, my husband didn't even know what a puppy mill was until I was talking about something I had read on this site. It just astounded me that he didn't know about puppy mills. His family only had two dogs when he was growing up, and both of them came from a pet store. I think the key to getting puppy mills shut down is to educate the public. As long as the average Joe thinks its okay to buy a dog/cat from a pet store, the puppy mills will stay in business. The problem is, the public already pretty much ignores the problem of all the unwanted pets, otherwise all pet dogs/cats would be s/n. If you started an advertising campaign about how puppy mills operate, people would ignore that too. Americans are really good at ignoring what they think doesn't effect them or if its something they don't want to face.

Vas
May 23rd, 2005, 08:43 PM
There are people who had never heard of puppy mills and people who heard enough and still ignore where the dog comes from. One of the reasons why they buy from pet shops, is that they don't need to wait, they don't care how pure the breed is, nobody asks them questions and they get a cute puppy or a kitten instantly. A quick solution. And I hope that at least there are people who don't throw them away.

LittleLoves
May 24th, 2005, 07:28 AM
You know what? Before coming to this site, I had no idea what a BYB was, or that pet stores are supplied by puppy mills. So, Lady is from a pet store, and Oscar is from a BYB. Since I've come to this site I've been tip-toeing around hoping no one would ask! It's out in the open now. I am one of the horrible people who keep puppy mills and BYB in business. Had I known then what I know now? I for sure would have bought from a responsible breeder.

You shouldn't be too hard on people. They do what they know, and until they are educated you have to understand that sometimes they really don't know any better.

JDG
May 24th, 2005, 08:49 AM
Colin and I came onto pets.ca before we adopted any pets to learn about cats/kittens to make an 'informed' decision. . . .

I didn't know the ins and outs of puppymills before coming here, and didn't know anything about byb before hand either. . . . I guess we were some of the lucky ones who learned about them beforehand. . . . .

But in the end, cuteness prevailed, and we did the 'other' cardinal sin - and got our kittens from the SPCA. . .haha.

We too got lucky there too, Marty and Minou are the dogs bollocks! They rock. Our kittens never had to be in a cage at the SPCA, they were in a loving foster family situation so perhaps that is different anyways. . . .

SnowDancer
May 24th, 2005, 09:57 AM
What is awful is to have done your research, travel 5 hours, see the dog - and his/her living environment - and the realize the person is a BYB. By then it is too late if you have formed an attachment with a pup.

Dahlia
May 24th, 2005, 12:07 PM
Ok, what if someone raises pups in their backyard but they take really good care of them and they have ideal living conditions, vet treatment, the parents are show quality, then what? Is that person not a responsible breeder? I don't see anything wrong with that, but just wondering what your standards are for a responsible breeder.

levimh
May 24th, 2005, 12:30 PM
That sounds like a responsible breeder to me. It's if they are selling them for the money and only the money that you need to look for. For example, I was reading the classifieds today (curiousity) and noticed an ad that said "Tiny tiny toy chihuahua or really tiny toy poodle, $800". IMO, this person is just doing it for the money, by saying they are really small - because people are always looking to buy little (little) dogs. A reputable breeder wouldn't mention the fact that they were "tiny tiny" toys, IMO.

JessXx
May 26th, 2005, 12:25 AM
:sorry: I dont get it...
WTF??!?!?!?
How stupid. :yuck: makes me sick

NickMali
May 26th, 2005, 03:14 PM
Hi,

I'm new here but just wanted to chime in... My inlaws were "backyard breeders" who not only have pedigree quailty, champion bloodline, yellow labs but also registered every puppy they sold with the AKA. They are retired now and had Toby, the bitch, fixed. The stud passed away recently. They never brought in external dogs for breeding help, only toby and scout(stud). Also never sold a dog without a full bill of health i.e. shots, tracking chip, hip dysplasia check, etc. from a vet.
Just a thought, but anyone considereing backyard breeding should do their homework.

Nick

Writing4Fun
May 26th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Just to clarify - I don't think "back yard breeder" refers to the location of the dogs. :p If the parents were champions, health tested (not just vet checked, but tested for genetic defects, etc...), didn't over-breed or breed "designer" dogs (I bet your parents would never have considered breeding "Labradoodles", would they?), bred purely for the love and betterment of the breed, etc..., then they were not (IMHO) "byb"ers - they were reputable. ;)

mona_b
May 26th, 2005, 07:46 PM
Just to clarify - I don't think "back yard breeder" refers to the location of the dogs. :p

LMAO...To funny.

Also wanted to add something.Champion in some of the pedigree doesn't really mean much.What does matter in a reputable breeder is that their Dam and Sire are Champion/Titled dogs.And that they have been shown.And are of breed standard.And all the breeders I know have a waiting list.And will not sell to any Joe Blow off the street.And they sell "show" and "pet" quality pups.And they have a non-breeding contract and a s/n contract.Also,here in Canada it is ilegal to sell a purebred without CKC papers.

My breeder bred GSD's for over 20 years.I was put on a waiting list BEFORE breeding took place.Her pedigrees,including both Sire and Dam where show Champions and Titled in SchH III.If I didn't have my boys neutered at 6 months,(neuter contract)I would have been fined $5000,this was for each.I have had 3 dogs from her.My current is a retired Police dog who worked with my brother.And I lost my other in Sept.

As for wanting to be a BYB and doing your research first,I say don't bother.Leave it to the pros.We have enough BYB's.

Vas
May 26th, 2005, 07:57 PM
Should a REPUTABLE breeder always investigate a family and decide whether it's the right place to put a puppy for adption? Because there are some GOOD breeders who are registered in dog clubs, showing their dogs, taking care of the well being of their puppies, but yet are not investigating a potential buyer, not asking questions! All they do is showing how they care about their animals, how proud they are. Is this a reputable breeder?

By the way, a really reputable breeder will charge quite a lot (around 2000$ and more) for his puppy and that means that more then 50% of all animal lovers would not be able to afford it.That's why BYB are filling the gap between pet shops and reputable breeders.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 26th, 2005, 08:10 PM
I believe a reputable breeder should ask questions of a potential buyer and vice versa too. I know enough that if I suspected a puppymill I would definately walk away. There is a pet store here in town and I now know about 4 people that have adopted ****zus I don't really have the nerve to say anything because I see these people on a regular basis. If someone is considereing buying from a pet store I would definatley tell them its a bad idea and ask them to research puppymills on the interenet.

mona_b
May 26th, 2005, 08:28 PM
I believe a reputable breeder should ask questions of a potential buyer and vice versa too.

Exactly.And I know many breeders who put you through a ton of red tape.


As for this breed being sold for $2000,a co-worker has 2 Labs,a yellow and a chocolate,he does trials with them.He did not pay that much for them.And both Sire and Dam are titled.He actually payed $800.I don't of anyone who has ever payed $2000 for this breed.

LavenderRott
May 26th, 2005, 08:42 PM
IMHO - a truly reputable breeder has/does the following:

1) has shown dogs to a championship
2) has shown dogs to a working title (more of a necessity for working breeds)
3) has had the dogs tested and certified clear of any genetic diseases
4) has planned the breeding very carefully based on bloodlines of both sire and dam
5) has asked potential puppy buyers more questions about pet care and lifestyle then the puppy buyer could imagine being asked
6) picks the puppy out for the buyer - carefully matching puppy to new family
7) is willing to take every single puppy they have ever sold back for whatever reason
8) is active in some way, shape, or form with rescue for their breed.

I know of several rottweiler breeders who meet the above criteria and they sell their pups for less then $2000.

Vas
May 26th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Exactly.And I know many breeders who put you through a ton of red tape.


As for this breed being sold for $2000,a co-worker has 2 Labs,a yellow and a chocolate,he does trials with them.He did not pay that much for them.And both Sire and Dam are titled.He actually payed $800.I don't of anyone who has ever payed $2000 for this breed.

The price depends on the breed also. Sometimes small breed dogs are more expensive, large popular breed dogs less expensive. And a breeder who does all health and genetic tests will charge more , especially in US.

Prin
May 26th, 2005, 09:09 PM
picks the puppy out for the buyer - carefully matching puppy to new family I was wondering about that. My friend is getting a doggy from a breeder and the breeder picked her dog out. I thought it was weird, but I guess it's the way it's supposed to be. :)

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 26th, 2005, 09:20 PM
IF we get a dog from a breeder I expect them to pick out the best pup for us as they know their dogs best and I would trust the one I eventually picked to pick out the best dog for us.

LavenderRott
May 26th, 2005, 09:30 PM
I was wondering about that. My friend is getting a doggy from a breeder and the breeder picked her dog out. I thought it was weird, but I guess it's the way it's supposed to be. :)

A good breeder has plenty of puppy experience. If an person wanting a puppy wants a great housedog but isn't into the great out-of-doors, it doesn't make much sense to give them the most rambunctious puppy. Yet I bet if that same family would go to pick out a pup - the rambunctious one with the silly antics would be the one they fall in love with. Makes for a miserable time for both the pup and the family.

NickMali
May 26th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Just to clarify - I don't think "back yard breeder" refers to the location of the dogs. :p If the parents were champions, health tested (not just vet checked, but tested for genetic defects, etc...), didn't over-breed or breed "designer" dogs (I bet your parents would never have considered breeding "Labradoodles", would they?), bred purely for the love and betterment of the breed, etc..., then they were not (IMHO) "byb"ers - they were reputable. ;)

From my experience I can say that proper breeding is rewarding even without being a professional. I wouldn't have my beautiful lab Rocky if weren't for my inlaws. I think there is a fine line to be drawn. Life is a beautiful thing why impede something that is so natural. If someone can find all the right information has a pure bred dog and wants to try... I say go ahead.
Backyard breeding is detestible because of the conditions of the poor dogs and the lack of love from owners/profiteers. They turn life into a sellable, marketable thing which almost pure evil. (think slave trade)
I'm not going to leave it to the pros. :p Thats like saying to me "adopt a child so your wife doesn't have to get pregnant" My dog is family. When the time is right, I will find a mate for him let nature happen. His family and blodline continue right along with mine :thumbs up Nothing said will change my mind of that. :evil:

NickMali
May 26th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Exactly.And I know many breeders who put you through a ton of red tape.


As for this breed being sold for $2000,a co-worker has 2 Labs,a yellow and a chocolate,he does trials with them.He did not pay that much for them.And both Sire and Dam are titled.He actually payed $800.I don't of anyone who has ever payed $2000 for this breed.

No, labs usually go for $750 to $1250. Depends on bloodline... Rare like choc/red go for more. Also depends on location and season.

LavenderRott
May 26th, 2005, 09:43 PM
From my experience I can say that proper breeding is rewarding even without being a professional. I wouldn't have my beautiful lab Rocky if weren't for my inlaws. I think there is a fine line to be drawn. Life is a beautiful thing why impede something that is so natural. If someone can find all the right information has a pure bred dog and wants to try... I say go ahead.
Backyard breeding is detestible because of the conditions of the poor dogs and the lack of love from owners/profiteers. They turn life into a sellable, marketable thing which almost pure evil. (think slave trade)
I'm not going to leave it to the pros. :p Thats like saying to me "adopt a child so your wife doesn't have to get pregnant" My dog is family. When the time is right, I will find a mate for him let nature happen. His family and blodline continue right along with mine :thumbs up Nothing said will change my mind of that. :evil:

Glad you have your mind made up. I am quite sure that the following numbers will do nothing to at least make you think about the what's or why's of what you want to do.

Dogs listed on Petfinder:117,637
Black labs: 4266
Labrador Retrievers:12,000
Yellow Labs: 1,677

If memory serves, Petfinder lists about 70% of the homeless dogs in shelters and with rescue groups in the United States.

Ah, but I see you have a male. So, you will find the "proper" female and then take one pup of oh, could be up to twelve. At least you won't have to worry about finding homes for the other 11 puppies.

As far as comparing breeding dogs to adopting human babies - that is pretty thoughtless. There are thousands of women in the world who would give anything to have a child and are unable for one reason or another.

NickMali
May 26th, 2005, 10:02 PM
Glad you have your mind made up. I am quite sure that the following numbers will do nothing to at least make you think about the what's or why's of what you want to do.

Dogs listed on Petfinder:117,637
Black labs: 4266
Labrador Retrievers:12,000
Yellow Labs: 1,677

If memory serves, Petfinder lists about 70% of the homeless dogs in shelters and with rescue groups in the United States.

Ah, but I see you have a male. So, you will find the "proper" female and then take one pup of oh, could be up to twelve. At least you won't have to worry about finding homes for the other 11 puppies.

As far as comparing breeding dogs to adopting human babies - that is pretty thoughtless. There are thousands of women in the world who would give anything to have a child and are unable for one reason or another.

As far as assigning the blame to me for a bunch of irresponsible breeders who can't care for dogs and find them right homes would be quite thoughtless.

As far as assuming i wouldn't care where the puppies go would be quite thoughtless.

As far as assuming that i haven't cared for homeless cats and dogs is completelly thoughtless.

Also as far as I'm concerned I'd rather help homeless stray humans who need more love and attention than the 17,943 labs you list there.

I ask: have you ever worked in a soup kitchen? Have you ever delivered food to a needy family at 10pm in the evening? Have you ever woken up at 4 in the morning to get day old bread and pastry from the supermarket to feed the homeless. I have. And I have half a heart and would not be wasting my time here if i didn't.

Please do not assume things when you don't know somebody.

LavenderRott
May 26th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Not only have I helped in a soup kitchen (although not near as often as I should) I have also held countless puppies and kittens while they were put to sleep because there was no more room at the shelter.

I do not, for the life of me, understand the whole idea that just because someone has a nice dog it needs to have puppies. I will never - ever condone the breeding of an animal that is not done responsibly.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 27th, 2005, 06:45 AM
Actually I don't understand why there is not a fine for not spaying and neutering pets especially non purebred ones. What if there were strict liscences given out to pure bred owners that had to past strict tests to breed their dogs or they would not be allowed to breed. What if for one year no one bred any dogs or cats at all they could call it operation pet control.

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 07:04 AM
I didn't come on here to start a flame fest.
I understand your cencern for homeless dogs. The same way you held and cared for the poor unfortunate creatures, I've held and cared for newborn puppies. To say someone shouldn't breed dogs because of over population or lack of caring families is irresponsible. Why should a small percent of dog owners who have the know how be prevented from breeding because there are too many homeless dogs.
Rather than punish the minority why not inform the majority. Get the information out there to individuals who might not know otherwise. Besides, although thi may seem sad, the families that are willing to spend $800 to $1000 on a pure bred dog typically wouldn't go to a shelter to adopt.
From our experience there were weird people that came to look at our puppies but we never sold to them. Most of our purchasers were families who still send us christmas cards with grown up pictures of their dogs. I don't think we've ever sold to people other than families. We only did 4 litters total. I think there were only 42 pups spread out over 5 years... hardly taxing on any animal shelter...

I respect your position. Please respect mine. I only posted here to share my experience with others. I never meant to tick you off... :sorry: However, I'll defend my position like the :evil: honest :angel:

LavenderRott
May 27th, 2005, 07:45 AM
I didn't come on here to start a flame fest.
I understand your cencern for homeless dogs. The same way you held and cared for the poor unfortunate creatures, I've held and cared for newborn puppies. To say someone shouldn't breed dogs because of over population or lack of caring families is irresponsible. Why should a small percent of dog owners who have the know how be prevented from breeding because there are too many homeless dogs.
Rather than punish the minority why not inform the majority. Get the information out there to individuals who might not know otherwise. Besides, although thi may seem sad, the families that are willing to spend $800 to $1000 on a pure bred dog typically wouldn't go to a shelter to adopt.
From our experience there were weird people that came to look at our puppies but we never sold to them. Most of our purchasers were families who still send us christmas cards with grown up pictures of their dogs. I don't think we've ever sold to people other than families. We only did 4 litters total. I think there were only 42 pups spread out over 5 years... hardly taxing on any animal shelter...

I respect your position. Please respect mine. I only posted here to share my experience with others. I never meant to tick you off... :sorry: However, I'll defend my position like the :evil: honest :angel:

I am not so much ticked off as not understanding.

How is it irresponsible to wish for a world where people did not breed dogs that shouldn't be bred? Thousands upon thousands of dogs are euthanized every single year.

I have no problem with a small percentage of knowledgeable people breeding dogs. But I think that your definition of knowledgeable and mine differ. Please see my post above. I think that dogs should be bred to maintain or better the breed. From the sound of your post - you think your dog should breed because he is nice and has the proper equipment.

I have two rescue dogs now. One was found on the street and the other was adopted from a rescue group. My recently depart rottweiler was a shelter dog. I would - in a heartbeat - pay $1,000 for a well bred rottweiler from one of the breeders that I described above. I know many other people who have an expensive well bred dog and at least one (if not more) dogs from rescues.

And I am not flaming - just discussing. ;)

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 08:41 AM
I am not so much ticked off as not understanding.

How is it irresponsible to wish for a world where people did not breed dogs that shouldn't be bred? Thousands upon thousands of dogs are euthanized every single year.

I have no problem with a small percentage of knowledgeable people breeding dogs. But I think that your definition of knowledgeable and mine differ. Please see my post above. I think that dogs should be bred to maintain or better the breed. From the sound of your post - you think your dog should breed because he is nice and has the proper equipment.

I have two rescue dogs now. One was found on the street and the other was adopted from a rescue group. My recently depart rottweiler was a shelter dog. I would - in a heartbeat - pay $1,000 for a well bred rottweiler from one of the breeders that I described above. I know many other people who have an expensive well bred dog and at least one (if not more) dogs from rescues.

And I am not flaming - just discussing. ;)

I don't want to breed my dog because he's nice. I want to breed him to continue his lineage. I want him to experience life to the fullest. I want to breed him so others can enjoy a pure bred dog and I want to make sure there are pure bred yellow labs still around in my part of the world. I don't about you but where I live people wear dogs as accessories. I have nothing against small dogs but to carry one around as a fashion statement makes me sick. I want families to enjoy a new family member from a puppy all the way to an adult and even to the grave.
Like I said there is a fine line. You may be knowledgeable about different things than I am but missunderstand me and say "you shouldn't breed because you'll add to the over population". You should say to everyone in genreal "don't breed because you don't have all the facts". "Don't breed if there is no reason to". "Don't breed if there is an over population of your breed of dog in your area" "don't breed just cause your greedy and think you can make money" "don't breed if you're just gonna give a pup away to the first person that walks through the door."
I am going to breed because of my reasons listed above. I'll probably keep a pup from the last litter to start it all over again too. And if one day someone you know is looking for a quality yellow lab don't be suprised if my dogs name shows up in the lineage of the one you find.

LavenderRott
May 27th, 2005, 08:56 AM
Well, Labrador Retreivers are the number one registered dog according to the American Kennel Club. The number two has almost half as many dogs registered. In Florida, right now, there are 502 Labrador Retrievers listed on Petfinder.

Look, you seem like a nice guy and if I was looking for someone who bred dogs that weren't health tested or proven, I might even look you up. Your motives seem pure - you don't seem to be in it for the money and you do seem to have the best intentions. I am really not trying to start a pissing contest. I guess I just don't understand why, at minimum, you don't have the dog you want to breed OFA certified.

BTW - not a single member of my family is into Labs. Sorry. ;)

happycats
May 27th, 2005, 09:03 AM
Also as far as I'm concerned I'd rather help homeless stray humans who need more love and attention than the 17,943 labs you list there.


I don't want to flame or offend but....

Most of us here feel very passionately about animals, thus the name "pets.ca”. Maybe you’re in the wrong forum, maybe you should be looking for "people.ca"!
I'm sorry, but I feel everyone has a cause, and ours just happens to be animals, and if yours isn't, then maybe you have come to the wrong place!

I feel it's totally wrong and irresponsibly to bring more dogs and cats into the world with so many being dumped, and PTS every day. (That's my 2 cents)

Oh by the way, if you end up with 11 puppies and a few years down the road 5 of the owners don't want them anymore, would you be willing to take them all??


42 pups over 5 year.... lets see 8 pups per year. (not much you say)...If everyone felt this way as you, OMG could you imagine... my city has a poupulation of 160, 000....hmmm thats only 1280000 puppies..(hardly taxing on any animal shelter, you say :confused: )

Lucky Rescue
May 27th, 2005, 09:14 AM
I want him to experience life to the fullest.

I see. I had hoped the comment you made in your post about the dog's rash was a joke, but I see it's not.

You must think dogs sit around daydreaming about being parents? Or fantasizing about having sex? Please do not project your own feelings into an animal, although of course, you are not the only man who does this. Animals do what instinct and hormones make them do.

If your dog is not a champion - in field or conformation - and you're breeding him (even after you have been told how many homeless Labs are out there and dying) then you are just a backyard breeder who obviously cares nothing for the breed. Anyone who would mate her dog with yours is just as irresponsible as you are, since no one with a titled and health tested bitch would ever consider using your dog as a stud.

If you did care, you would adopt one of those homeless dogs and get your own dog neutered. Without titles, your dog is no better than any of the thousands and thousands of other Labs dying in shelters and sitting in cages. I'm sure many of them have good "lineages" too.

Do you know there are 502 Labs listed on Petfinder in Florida? I wonder how many of these poor dumped dogs came directly from your family?

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 09:39 AM
I don't want to flame or offend but....

Most of us here feel very passionately about animals, thus the name "pets.ca”. Maybe you’re in the wrong forum, maybe you should be looking for "people.ca"!
I'm sorry, but I feel everyone has a cause, and ours just happens to be animals, and if yours isn't, then maybe you have come to the wrong place!

I feel it's totally wrong and irresponsibly to bring more dogs and cats into the world with so many being dumped, and PTS every day. (That's my 2 cents)

Oh by the way, if you end up with 11 puppies and a few years down the road 5 of the owners don't want them anymore, would you be willing to take them all??


42 pups over 5 year.... lets see 8 pups per year. (not much you say)...If everyone felt this way as you, OMG could you imagine... my city has a poupulation of 160, 000....hmmm thats only 1280000 puppies..(hardly taxing on any animal shelter, you say :confused: )

Yeah, I think homeless people need more love and attention. I have to leave here because of that fact? Please forgive me for saying, but that is a little arrogant.

Read my previous posts. I've taken in strays. I encourage my idiot neighbors to spay there cats. But to simply imply that the families that We have sold our dogs to would drop them off on some alley corner or at a shelter is simply offending. And I already said that breeders like us are small percentage of the population. Maybe I am in the wrong place if I'm flamed to death for caring enough about my breed of dog to want to continue a proper and healthy lineage.
In regard to taking back in a dog, we always would offer to take the dog back if there were extraordinary circumstances, even refund all the money.
Once again, why should I be held liable for misinformed undeserving @$$holes who don't care about thier pets. Most of those 500 labs in FL probably came from puppy mills anyways.

Maybe I don't understand your ideology: save the helpless dogs and find them homes before breeding more. You would put all the breeders out of business. Wouldn't it make more sense to inform people before taking home a puppy the necessities of caring for one. Let people build a relationship with their dog so the next generation of dogs isn't homeless.
Dont get me wrong, I know all the homeless dogs need a place to live and a family to care for them but that doesn't solve the root of the problem. There is a way to breed with out compounding this problem and it has to do with information. You should see the packets of info we used to give to each person that bought a dog. Between the info pack and the vet bill of health the shots and akc papers 8 weeks of boarding and puppy chow, each dog was a financial loss. But there was something more to gain for each family that adopted one of the puppies and if you dont understand that then i'm sorry.

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 09:46 AM
I see. I had hoped the comment you made in your post about the dog's rash was a joke, but I see it's not.

You must think dogs sit around daydreaming about being parents? Or fantasizing about having sex? Please do not project your own feelings into an animal, although of course, you are not the only man who does this. Animals do what instinct and hormones make them do.

If your dog is not a champion - in field or conformation - and you're breeding him (even after you have been told how many homeless Labs are out there and dying) then you are just a backyard breeder who obviously cares nothing for the breed. Anyone who would mate her dog with yours is just as irresponsible as you are, since no one with a titled and health tested bitch would ever consider using your dog as a stud.

If you did care, you would adopt one of those homeless dogs and get your own dog neutered. Without titles, your dog is no better than any of the thousands and thousands of other Labs dying in shelters and sitting in cages. I'm sure many of them have good "lineages" too.

Do you know there are 502 Labs listed on Petfinder in Florida? I wonder how many of these poor dumped dogs came directly from your family?


It was a joke. I guess you don't have a sense of humor.

I've already said my reasons for breeding and to say I don't care makes you look like a fool.

Oh I would never stud my dog out... Sex fantasies (where the hell did you get that from you evil sick twisted freak.) My dog is not a whore. I would get a life partner for him.

Sneaky2006
May 27th, 2005, 09:55 AM
Are you going to marry them too?

Lucky Rescue
May 27th, 2005, 09:59 AM
Most of those 500 labs in FL probably came from puppy mills anyways.

Right. Actually, most of them probably come from people like you, who want to breed just because they have a cute dog, or think he needs a sex life. The people who bred all these Labs also would have been indignant if anyone suggested they would end up being killed in shelters, but they did.

Maybe I don't understand your ideology: save the helpless dogs and find them homes before breeding more.

That doesn't make sense to you? So your ideology is what? Keep pumping out more puppies when thousands are dying? You don't want to "put breeders out of business?" It's not supposed to be a business. Breeding should be done for love of the breed, AND ONLY if you have a champion dog, who has been health tested against all genetic defects common to the breed. In other words a near perfect example of the breed.

IF you have not done these things, you should not breed. Your dog's lineage means ZERO if he is not himself a champion. AKC papers mean next to nothing and anyone could get a dog comparable to yours at any shelter. Labs are a dime a dozen and you should be trying to cut down on the number of them flooding the country and not adding to it.

caring enough about my breed of dog to want to continue a proper and healthy lineage
What makes your dog so special? What do you like about him, in terms of conforming to breed standard?

No one is flaming you. We're just trying to understand what makes your dog special enough to be bred, when the country is overrun with Labs. Cursing doesn't make you very credible.

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 10:24 AM
Right. Actually, most of them probably come from people like you, who want to breed just because they have a cute dog, or think he needs a sex life. The people who bred all these Labs also would have been indignant if anyone suggested they would end up being killed in shelters, but they did.



That doesn't make sense to you? So your ideology is what? Keep pumping out more puppies when thousands are dying? You don't want to "put breeders out of business?" It's not supposed to be a business. Breeding should be done for love of the breed, AND ONLY if you have a champion dog, who has been health tested against all genetic defects common to the breed. In other words a near perfect example of the breed.

IF you have not done these things, you should not breed. Your dog's lineage means ZERO if he is not himself a champion. AKC papers mean next to nothing and anyone could get a dog comparable to yours at any shelter. Labs are a dime a dozen and you should be trying to cut down on the number of them flooding the country and not adding to it.


What makes your dog so special? What do you like about him, in terms of conforming to breed standard?

No one is flaming you. We're just trying to understand what makes your dog special enough to be bred, when the country is overrun with Labs. Cursing doesn't make you very credible.


First of all, no ones cursing.
Second of all don't twist my words. I didn't say breeding was a business infact proper breeding is very unprofitable.
Third, saving the helpless dogs and finding them homes before breeding more IS what i understood your idealogy to be. I don't see how that helps your case of stopping pet homelessness. Your solution is temporary. Infoming people so they don't dump a pup on the side of the road is permanent. Then you wouldn't have to spend your time attacking a small part of the population that doesn't even contribute to the overall problem. You don't know my situation. I have more than just akc papers and hope and a prayer...

You can call me whatever you like. BYB, breeding enthusiast, dog killer. You still don't know me and I'm still going to breed with my good intentions.

LittleLoves
May 27th, 2005, 10:31 AM
Companies who test products on animals have "good intentions" too. :rolleyes:

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 10:42 AM
Companies who test products on animals have "good intentions" too. :rolleyes:

Its like nothing I said was read execept what you don't want to hear. How irresponsible you are to compare what my intentions are to the intentions of experimenting scientists. Well I could say then what you do makes your pet about as asexual as an amoeba. That would be irresponsible of me because that was your decision. You understood the implications and took responsiblity.

You all are being very unreasonable. I think i am in the wrong place :o

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 10:44 AM
Are you going to marry them too?

Yeah, your invited. :rolleyes:

Lise
May 27th, 2005, 10:50 AM
How can somebody fail to understand how placing labs from back yard breeders and educating people to stop producing more can help with pet overpopulation?As far as the argument that people who are willing pay for thier pet will not go a rescue ?My beardie is from a breeder who imported her mother from england ,has shown her father to championship ,has been a breeder for more than thirty years and I waited two years for her,my english shepherd ,who I just lost at 15,was from a breeder who cleared hips and eyes ,all of his dogs are titled working dogs and I was on his waiting list for more than a year,those are great breeders,who do more for thier breeds than produce more cute puppies to die in shelters,thier dogs go out on spay neuter agreements did yours?I also have a cairn and a collie from rescues.As far as your argument that you are saving the pet quality yellow lab from extinction in your area,unless you live on the moon I doubt that.

Lucky Rescue
May 27th, 2005, 11:00 AM
You don't know my situation. I have more than just akc papers and hope and a prayer...

What "situation"? Your dog has titles? What are they? Health testing? Why won't you say? I would be proud to and wouldn't keep it a secret.

First of all, no ones cursing

I call this cursing. JMO.
undeserving @$$holes

I forgot to add name calling to your repetoire. Charming.
you evil sick twisted freak....you look like a fool)

I didn't say breeding was a business

NO?
You would put all the breeders out of business.

And I already said that breeders like us are small percentage of the population.
Breeders like you? You mean people peddling puppies from unhealth tested and untitled parents? Sadly, you are nothing unusual. You are just one of millions of backyard breeders, pumping out badly bred dogs for selfish reasons. Just the usual.

You can tell yourself that the 12,000 Labs on Petfinder all came from puppymills if that helps you justify what you are doing, but they did not.
I'm sure many of them are direct descendants of your family BYBing "business".

You can rant all you like and evade direct questions, but that will not change facts.

LavenderRott
May 27th, 2005, 11:03 AM
But to simply imply that the families that We have sold our dogs to would drop them off on some alley corner or at a shelter is simply offending.

Last week a very nicely bred rottweiler from a very responsible breeder in California was traced through her tattoo. The dog was found in NEW JERSEY and was picked up by animal control as a stray. The dog sat there for two weeks before she was turned over to a rescue group. The breeder is devestated that the dog was found wandering the streets and is paying to have the dog returned to her.

caring enough about my breed of dog to want to continue a proper and healthy lineage.

I care tremendously about "my" breed of dog. Because of this I will probably never breed. I don't have the time to show the dog to make sure that it conforms to the breed standard. Then there are obedience titles to get to make sure that the dog is of solid temperment and a good working dog. Then there are OFA certifications to make sure that there is little chance that any puppies my dog might have are as healthy as humanly possible. Then there would be the search for the perfect mate. Bloodlines would have to be studied and each dog would have to be researched to find out about hip scores, temperment tests, working titles, etc. Then there are possible problems with pregnancy, labor and delivery. And we won't even talk about trying to home every pup.

Trying to educate people who buy pups and people who breed pups can stop the overpopulation problem. If everyone was aware of the genetic issues associated with the breed of dog they wanted and insisted that the parents were tested for these issues - puppy mills and backyard breeders would quickly find themselves out of business.

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 11:04 AM
How can somebody fail to understand how placing labs from back yard breeders and educating people to stop producing more can help with pet overpopulation?As far as the argument that people who are willing pay for thier pet will not go a rescue ?My beardie is from a breeder who imported her mother from england ,has shown her father to championship ,has been a breeder for more than thirty years and I waited two years for her,my english shepherd ,who I just lost at 15,was from a breeder who cleared hips and eyes ,all of his dogs are titled working dogs and I was on his waiting list for more than a year,those are great breeders,who do more for thier breeds than produce more cute puppies to die in shelters,thier dogs go out on spay neuter agreements did yours?I also have a cairn and a collie from rescues.As far as your argument that you are saving the pet quality yellow lab from extinction in your area,unless you live on the moon I doubt that.

So what is your solution? Keep trying to save the poor things with out any other action. I was purely stating how informing and education the people who buy the puppies can go along way to prevention. Do you agree with that? I never said to stop taking care of sheltered animals. Only that prevention may be the only way to stop it.

You all make it sound like i'm shooting puppies out of a grenade launcher and just don't care what I hit...

Oh saving the yellow labs argument... read a line down from that i was being funny, haha. Its like all of you just hear what you want and ignore everything else.

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 11:21 AM
What "situation"? Your dog has titles? What are they? Health testing? Why won't you say? I would be proud to and wouldn't keep it a secret.



I call this cursing. JMO.


I forgot to add name calling to your repetoire. Charming.




NO?



Breeders like you? You mean people peddling puppies from unhealth tested and untitled parents? Sadly, you are nothing unusual. You are just one of millions of backyard breeders, pumping out badly bred dogs for selfish reasons. Just the usual.

You can tell yourself that the 12,000 Labs on Petfinder all came from puppymills if that helps you justify what you are doing, but they did not.
I'm sure many of them are direct descendants of your family BYBing "business".

You can rant all you like and evade direct questions, but that will not change facts.

Evading questions, and ranting, selfish. mean puppy peddler, looks like you like name calling too

My Dogs parents aren't untested or unhealthy. I'd ask you to say it to my face and see it i didn't punch you in the nose.

You all are very rude. I feel uncomfortable here and unwelcome hardly the loving caring place this seems like on the outside. I just wanted to share my pleasent experiences. You can twist my words all you want. I don't care how many posts you have or how many of you gang up on me. My dogs parents weren't both champions but thier parents were. And there parents before their parents were as well. I have full papers to prove it too.

I've said too many time that I'm responsible for my actions. Do i have to spell it out: T H E Y H A V E B E E N H E A L T H T E S T E D. I havn't been keeping secrets but have been trying to expain my situation from the begining. All I have recieved back is character asassination and hatred. I'm not even going to discuss it anymore.

My inlaws bred dogs. I intend to breed dogs. End of story.

Who wouldn't want one of these... :p
http://www.video-monitoring.com/nick/pictures/dcp_1018.jpg

happycats
May 27th, 2005, 11:35 AM
Maybe you can answer these questions.
If you go on to breed your dog, and end up the same way as your family member with 42 dogs....

Can you be sure that none of those 42 puppies ended up in a shelter, or PTS?

Of those 42 puppies, did any of them have puppies of their own?

Of those puppies, puppies (if any of the original 42 had any) can you guarantee that none of them ended up in a shelter or PTS?

If you can't be sure these things, then don't you feel somewhat responsible for their situation, if they did end up in a shelter, dumped, abused or PTS (before their time)?

LavenderRott
May 27th, 2005, 11:39 AM
OK, let's all take a deep breath.

Nick. Please remember that MANY members of this forum are heavily involved in canine rescue. If you want to understand where they are coming from - read the thread about e-mails that they get. You will be appalled and amazed. I once knew a family that got rid of the family dog because it didn't match the new furniture!

Also, this is a PUBLIC forum. That means that those who are posting here are not the only people reading what is written. If anything written here stops one person from breeding - well that is one less litter of pups.

I don't think anyone has been rude. Brutally honest and passionate maybe. But I can show you a couple of rude threads and this doesn't even come close.

You have a beautiful dog. I promise you that if you look at the pictures of some of the labradors listed on Petfinder - you will see that they are beautiful dogs too. Please don't take that the wrong way.

Don't leave mad. The people here are some of the most honest, caring people I have met online. But they sure won't pull any punches.

Lucky Rescue
May 27th, 2005, 12:15 PM
I'd ask you to say it to my face and see it i didn't punch you in the nose.
Would that make you feel better?

What health tests? And it's been explained to you carefully that it doesn't matter if your dog's ancestors were champions if your dog is not.

What makes your dog better than this one, who is sitting homeless in Florida? Specifics please!
http://www.petfinder.org/fotos/FL183/FL183.3960981-1-x.jpg

nymph
May 27th, 2005, 12:16 PM
NickMali: I was patiently reading all your responses until I read this: "I want to make sure there are pure bred yellow labs still around in my part of the world"

I just lost it. Do you know how many purebred yellow labs are being abandoned and euthanized each year? Every one of the pet owners has a utmost RESPONSIBILITY to HELP the pet overpopulation problem, not contributing to it.

I was going to get a purebred yellow lab, it was until I came to this board that I've learned about puppy mills and BYB. Now I'm a very proud mom of a lab/golden cross rescued canine. Your dog is absolutely beautiful, so is my little baby. Diego deserves just as much as a purebred lab to be in this world.

Who wouldn't want one of these?

happycats
May 27th, 2005, 01:12 PM
Here are some beuaties "who wouldn't want these ones??" Obviously someone dumped them, even though they are pure bred and a beautiful speciman of the breed!!
Just because they are "pure" and "beautiful" and have a "wonderful temperment" they are STILL homeless!! What makes you think your pups would fare any better??
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4422535&adTarget=468doggeneral&SessionID=42975fb74e176b02-app1&display=&preview=&row=0&tmpl=&stat=
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=3881178&adTarget=468doggeneral&SessionID=42975fb74e176b02-app1&display=&preview=&row=0&tmpl=&stat=
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4484356&adTarget=468doggeneral&SessionID=42975fb74e176b02-app1&display=&preview=0&row=25&tmpl=&stat=

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 01:42 PM
You've all got to be kidding me... OMG. I think I've learned a little from this... You can't expect people to read everything you write. But hey thats what life is, right?

I'll just say to everyone, relax, have a cup of tea, and read my posts again. If you still have a problem with the things I said then you need xanax...

By the way, cute Dogs... I would adopt them in a heartbeat if I wasn't already commited to another Dog.

Does anyone have a better idea about how to prevent this other than to stop breeding? Ya know, like constructive criticism. I say we need more education and information before breeding or adopting pets not stop breeding pets all together.

nymph
May 27th, 2005, 01:52 PM
Oh HappyCats, they are all so handsome! It just breaks my heart knowing this. http://bestsmileys.com/crying/8.gif

Cactus Flower
May 27th, 2005, 01:54 PM
In your early post, you said that your in-laws used to be back yard breeders. And that you are planning to now breed your own.

From there on, "they" (your inlaws) became "WE". "WE hand out information packets", "WE get Christmas cards with pictures of the dogs", etc.

I think that you were/are more involved in this backyard breeding business than you are admitting.

You said: I encourage my idiot neighbors to spay there cats.
I'm curious, what makes you any different than your "idiot neighbors"? THEY should spay their animals, but YOU shouldn't neuter your dog, hm? Oh it must be so nice to be the exception, so very special.

You also said, a few times: I think i am in the wrong place That's the first thing you've stated on this thread that I agree with, wholeheartedly.

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Hi cactus flower,
I assume you are a decent human being, And care for your pets. I may have stated things in the wrong tense. We used to, We did but that doesn't mean I sell puppies now. If you read along you will also see i say that the sire passed away.

I have been trying to tell my neighbors, who have unspayed female cats running around outdoors having kittens all over the neighborhood. I think this classifies them as ID10Ts. And doesn't mean that I'm above them. Just a little more keen.

I'm sorry you disagree with me. If this thread makes your blood boil then contact the local authorities. I'm sure someone with a little where-with-all could trace my IP find out who I am. Make 'em send animal cops to inspect my property. I'll gladly show them my dog, Rocky, and bid them a wonderful day.

Cactus Flower
May 27th, 2005, 02:42 PM
Nick, what I'm trying to convey is that you've come to a pro spay/neuter board, where breeding is ONLY condoned under the aforementioned circumstances. You truly are in the "wrong place". I don't mean that sarcastically.

You've come to a board where everyone is going to disagree with what you are doing, or planning to do. I'm not sure what your intention is with these posts, but they are non-productive. The anti-byb opinions here are just as rigid as your desire to breed. I'm sure we'd get the same reception on a pro-byb board. Our positions are simply too polarized to inspire anything but argument and offense.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that anything you've written makes my "blood boil". You are just text on a screen to me. Frankly I'd simply like to see you move on to an appropriate forum, and not continue to upset the good members you've insulted here thus far.

By the way, the person you called an "evil sick twisted freak" is one of the most respected members on this board, as well as a moderator- and she does not seem like a "fool" to any of us.

Perhaps you should evaluate how it looks for you to stick around, merely to stir the pot and cast cursory and juvenile insults at people.

NickMali
May 27th, 2005, 03:04 PM
I only insulted her because she was saying i was having sexual fantasies about my dog... I hope i haven't insulted anyone else. I've not called anyone names but her and I truly apologize for those remarks. However i feel her's were uncalled for.
I'm not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes here. I'm not "pro byb" or whatever. I just stumbled upon this thread with the good intentions of sharing the experience I had with my inlaws. I'm not here to convince you or anyone else to stop fighting for your cause. Rah Rah. I wish you all the best of intentions.

I'm sorry if the things that I've said make you think i'm irresponsible. I really only hade good intentions comming in here. Never thought it would blow up like this.

Guess I should just keep my yap shut sometimes. Nobody likes someone who talks to much, right? :confused: I got that feeling like showing up at party and everyone is dressed in white and i'm wearing black... :eek:

Sorry once again... I'll leave you all in peace.

Lucky Rescue
May 27th, 2005, 04:13 PM
she was saying i was having sexual fantasies about my dog

I said no such thing. Please do not put words in my mouth. What I said is this:

You must think dogs sit around daydreaming about being parents? Or fantasizing about having sex? Please do not project your own feelings into an animal, although of course, you are not the only man who does this. Animals do what instinct and hormones make them do.

I said this in response to your post about wanting your dog to have a "full life", by begetting more badly bred Labs. That is nonsense conjured up to justify you producing dogs of a breed that is way overpopulated already.
Let me simplify so you will understand: HUMANS think and dream about having a spouse, children and all that goes with it. Animals do not.

I do agree that you would be happier on a message board that encourages irresponsible backyard breeding. Just don't go to Lab message boards, because if you think we have been unkind, you'll be shocked at the reaming you will get there. Most of those people know that Labs are not on an endangered species list and will be apalled at your family tradition since they care more about the breed than their own "I want what I want and don't care how many dogs die for me to get it!"

Obviously your dog has no titles, health testing or any qualifications whatsoever that make him breeding quality but you will breed him anyway. This kind of irresponsibilty is not condoned here.
Good luck with your puppies. I guess someone has to keep the shelter staff employed.
Bye!

Loraxp
May 27th, 2005, 04:38 PM
NickMali,

Cactus is right, Lucky IS one of the most respected members on the board, so flinging mud at her is likely just going to make you look dirty.

You somehow keep attempting humor in a subject that is SO serious for the majority of us on the board - it is ill received. (i.e., Referring to spayed and neutered animals as amoebas - totally ignorant statement, joke or not).

I understand that you love and cherish your dog and the puppies derived from him. Please promote to the people who are adopting the pups that spaying and neutering are great ways to decrease the risks of brest/ovarian/uterine, and prostate/testicular cancers in their furry kids.

I agree with you 100% that education is the ONLY way to help alleviate the overflow of animal shelters/rescues... however, having said this you need to open your mind and perhaps take in a few golden nuggets of information from this board so that you might add to your knowledgebase.

Please consider this - if you spread your belief in "responsible BYB" to those adopting your puppies, how many litters will the new owners think are okay?

If you need more information on shelter animals you could volunteer at one and assist with a few euthanizations. This may make you less inclined to make jokes (esp. about sterilizing pets) and want to continue a common breed of dog's lineage (no matter how sweet his disposition).

I agree that the whole sexual fantasies issue got misconstrued... however as you blatantly stated "I want to breed him to continue his lineage. I want him to experience life to the fullest.". Upon first glance these statements seem to imply sexual satisfaction be required for a dog to have a very full life.

You said your dog's parents were health tested... but was your dog? Genetic defects or abnormalities can skip generations, just as they can in people.

Please do not apologize for making us "think" you are irresponsible.

Final question (kind'a silly)... "I wish you all the best of intentions.".... I don't understand what intentions you are wishing us?

:love: My personal 2 cents...
My husband and I recently faced the decision of either breeding our AKC reg. and health checked F. Dapple Mini. Dachshund "just once" so that her fabulous lineage may be continued, or get her spayed before her first heat to reduce her risks of cancer. We decided that we could not live with ourselves if we bred her. To think of the slight possibility that someone might have adopted a dog from a shelter/rescue rather than buy one from us was too severe, as well as the higher possibility of her getting cancer just after loosing a loving shepX to cancer. After compleating some exponential procreation mathematics and adding in the likliness of some of the puppies either being passed from home to home, or worse - abused, we totally decided against breeding.

My husband and I do not need to sell puppies (for profit or not-for-profit) to spread the word on responsible and knowledgeable pet ownership. Reading and sharing in posts on this and other discussion boards, as well as discussing critter issues/challenges with other people in the community and abroad are our methods of spreading information.

moontamara
May 27th, 2005, 05:57 PM
I bought Casey from a petstore in Korea. It was a very selfish act -- something I never would have done in Canada. I now know that there are several rescues I could have contacted, and even some pet stores that offer pets in need in rehoming, but at that time I searched and searched for informatino and failed, and was feeling homesick and lonely (my husband was working 16 hour days) and I broke down..... I've since successfully convinced friends NOT to buy from pet stores in Korea, which helps with the guilt a little.... :sad:

:sorry:

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 27th, 2005, 06:02 PM
There are certain breeds of dogs that I am hesitant to get and some of them are labs and retreivers, not because I don't like them but because they are totally overbred and I don't know if the one I am getting is going to be healthy have a good temperment etc... I actually grew up with both these breeds of dogs...but if I was going to get one now I would definatley get one from a shelter as there is alot of them, normally these dogs are considered good with kids but alot of them on the shelters are not that could be because of breeding or circumstances I don't know. It seems if you take a dog and make it so popular that everyone starts breeding it the quality of the breed goes down. This goes for other breeds as well.

mona_b
May 27th, 2005, 06:55 PM
IMHO - a truly reputable breeder has/does the following:

1) has shown dogs to a championship
2) has shown dogs to a working title (more of a necessity for working breeds)
3) has had the dogs tested and certified clear of any genetic diseases
4) has planned the breeding very carefully based on bloodlines of both sire and dam
5) has asked potential puppy buyers more questions about pet care and lifestyle then the puppy buyer could imagine being asked
6) picks the puppy out for the buyer - carefully matching puppy to new family
7) is willing to take every single puppy they have ever sold back for whatever reason
8) is active in some way, shape, or form with rescue for their breed.

I know of several rottweiler breeders who meet the above criteria and they sell their pups for less then $2000.

This is soooooooo very true..... :thumbs up

NickMali.

Not once did you mention anything about your in-laws showing or haveing titled dogs.What makes you think these dogs where of breed standard?What makes you think your is?What testing have you done on yours.Do you do field work with Rocky?What titles does he have?

Do I think you are being irresponsible for wanting to stud out your dog?Hell yeah.I guess you want to keep the BYB in the family.Pretty sad I would say.

My co-worker worked very hard with with his 2 Labs.Gunner and Mack have titles in Field.He has no intentions on studding them out.And they are both of breed standard.And buy the way,he did not pay a different price for Gunner just because he is a Chocolate Lab.And I know of many reputable Lab breeders who do NOT put a different price tag for the colour.At least not here in Canada.

Prin
May 27th, 2005, 11:48 PM
I had a show dobie when I was younger. In his first family, he was a stud, a well recognized champion. I can tell you he was MUCH happier with us, not having sex and not having pups.

If your dog is soooooo good, why DON'T you show him? Why didn't your parents show theirs? Seems like the line's credibility ended with your family.

I would not buy from you. Frankly, the ones up for adoptions look more like pure labs to me than yours does. Truth is you're not bettering the breed, therefore you are nothing but a backyard breeder. If you were a good breeder you would be looking to produce pups that are BETTER than yours, and better than your dog's parents. But you're not. Why should families buy from you rather than a real breeder with qualifications? Even if it's for a house pet-- why should people settle for anything less than the best possible line-- which is certainly not yours.

So you know EXACTLY where all 42 pups are today? I doubt it very much. Getting Christmas cards from a few doesn't make us nearly believe you know where the rest of them are.

Keep making excuses for your immorality, but we've heard it before and we all have the proof: most people here have rescue dogs, the "garbage" of your business.

As long as there are dogs in shelters, I will never buy from a breeder. And yes, to me they are more important than the homeless because WE domesticated them and made it so that they don't survive well in the wild. WE abuse them, WE discard them, WE BREED them stupidly, WE treat them as objects, and THEY do NOTHING to us to deserve the cruddy treatment humans give them. They are here for us and people abuse them.

I'm in it for the DOGS, not for money, not for selfish reasons, or for my EGO. I'm in it FOR THE DOGS. And I will continue to adopt dogs from back yard breeders and puppy mills and animal abusers and uneducated selfish pet owners and YOU, until there isn't one left.

You must think your customers are fools for buying dogs from you when you know you are not a reputable breeder. I bet you're laughing all the way to the bank.

Plus, adopting gives you so many options. You can get Boo, who is a terrific retriever but doesn't have the high energy craziness of a lab, and you can get Jemma, who is a crazy retriever-- the retrieving skills of a hunting lab with the endurance of a husky (and she is way more compact than a lab too). WHY would I want to buy from a Back yard breeder, when the dogs that people with no morals, like you, discard are even better?

Prin
May 28th, 2005, 12:39 AM
I made a collage for everybody... PICK OUT THE DOG THAT IS MOST SUITABLE FOR BREEDING. Does any one stand out from the others? They're all Petfinder dogs, except NickMali's. Frankly there are a few others who look better. Yes, health matters, but looks do too when you are talking about breed standards and quality of dogs.

And here's a mix with a face that has to make you feel SOMETHING.
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4497045&adTarget=468doggeneral&SessionID=4297fbad51f9b557-app4&display=&preview=1&row=300&tmpl=&stat=

Joey.E.CockersMommy
May 28th, 2005, 01:04 AM
Great Collage. I started looking at all the dogs on the thread but there are so many labs and lab crosses I think I may be there all night and still not see them all. I will have to admit though this one is adorable. All the dogs deserve rescuing especially the senior ones.

http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=2&SessionID=4297fbad51f9b557-app4&pet=4472809&display=&adTarget=468doggeneral&preview=1&row=300&tmpl=&stat=

Prin
May 28th, 2005, 01:05 AM
A super cutie. (not a lab though... the sitting pic is closest to lab looking) Isn't the mixed guy's face just so sad? If somebody looks at that face and doesn't see anything in it... I don't know. Here, I'll post him here, so he'll be here even when the link doesn't work anymore because he's been adopted to a terrific, deserving family.

Prin
May 28th, 2005, 01:11 AM
I JUST noticed in the Intro forum, you say the DAD DIED OF HEART FAILURE?!?!? HOW can you peddle these pups, KNOWING they have a HUGE chance of having a genetic disorder??!??!!?!?? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
His dad passed away recently from heart failure and his mom still lives in Melbourne, FL with my inlaws

Writing4Fun
May 28th, 2005, 08:52 AM
Nick, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt when you first posted here, but I see now that I was terribly wrong. Yup, your parents (and you, if you continue on this path) are prime examples of back yard breeders, with all of the negative connotations that go along with that dubious title. :( And I will dance the dance of joy when people like you are put out of business forever.

I hope anyone else reading this thread will learn from it. If the good people here have managed to dissuade even one other person from breeding their untitled, untested dog, then I think all the ranting on this thread would have been worth it.

Tamara, we've all done something "wrong" in the past. Good Lord, we'd be here all day if I listed all of my past pet indescretions! :eek: The point is, we came here and learned about the very real problems of pet over population and puppy mills/BYBs, and we care enough to help others learn from our mistakes. :)

marko
May 28th, 2005, 09:24 AM
This thread has run its course and will now be closed.