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How about those Cardinals, eh?

Prin
April 20th, 2005, 03:07 AM
It has a totally different meaning now with all the Pope electing going on. I thought it was a funny literal parallel... It's all there is on the news. It's still an interesting process though. I'm not religious, per se, but I love to watch huge groups of people unite peacefully, even if I don't believe what they stand for sometimes. Like the "No" rally, or the Olympics-- I am glued to the tv for the olympics...

I really don't want to start anything heated, but I wanted to ask how significant it is to all of you. Is the election process something you followed? Are you happy with the choice?

If it's not something we're allowed to talk about, feel free to close this thread. I don't know how sensitive people are about just talking about it, but I am interested to hear something from anybody about it who is not a reporter... What does it all really mean?

JDG
April 20th, 2005, 09:48 AM
I'm not Catholic, but I think that is one of those moments where 5 years down the road someone will ask you where you were. . . .

Television and the media allowed everyone to be a part of moment. I'm thankful I got to be a fly on the wall. . .

I always appreciate these moments in life, even if they spring from something sad.

Today is the anniversary of Columbine. . .I know where I was when that happened. . .

I know where I was when the Challenger downed, the white bronco chase, and of course 9/11. . . . .

Safyre
April 20th, 2005, 10:55 AM
I actually had goosebumps seeing the white smoke ... then watching as the bells started to move, live.
i'm not catholic, I think im ore just like the history of the process. its great.
Problem is, he is 79 yrs old already, how long is he REALLY going to be Pope. He has already been hospitalized in the past 5 years, twice. He is avery different from Pop John Paul II, as John Paul was a very friendly Pope, well travelled, well liked. This one, has a lot of bad publicity, even his chose named Benedict, is seen as a way to get into good graces with the people, as t he last Benedict was a beloved Pope.
I wish they woulda picked someone from Latin America, or even South Africa. I want to live to see the day that a black man is Pope.

Princesss04
April 20th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Safyre I was not going to post hear but I think I will since you said it first. LOL I agree I was shocked that they picked him with his age, health, and past history. Was he not a guard in Hitlers (not sure if this is the right man) army? I knew with his health that would be a big concern. I hope this is not to stressful on him. I wathced and followed this as well the last few days. I know the people loved the last Pope but we will see. I am not Catholic so it really does not matter to me. Just thought they would pick someone younger that would live a little longer (or should) he is like 78 right? How much traveling can you do than.I respect him and think the Catholic people should as well. This is the man they felt should be in this high position. But I am with you I wanted to see the black man get it. I want to live to the day that we see a balck pope. :D

Prin
April 20th, 2005, 03:03 PM
Was he not a guard in Hitlers (not sure if this is the right man) army? I know, I don't get that. They say he's honorable because he deserted the army-- but in 1945. Wasn't that the year the war ended?

jiorji
April 20th, 2005, 09:35 PM
i agree Prin i find it interesting. Good to see people united peacefully for whatever reason.

Safyre, I would've loved to see a non white pope too. Would've been interesting. I think it has to do with the politics of the church and where the world stands right now. I don't think they're ready for an African pope or a Female president. As for the age, he is a bit too old I thought as well. But you never know he could live to be 90. lol

twinmommy
April 20th, 2005, 09:44 PM
I agree, I would love to see these things.. a woman president, a black pope, and I am tired of hearing that the world is just "not ready" for these things.

What exactly are we waiting for, and why is it such a big deal?

Safyre
April 20th, 2005, 10:23 PM
Princess - I wasn't scared to post my feelings, because they were asked for. I knew my thoughts on it might be controversial, but more likely, they are shared by many others. I didn't know he was in Hilters Army, i suppose that does explain his constant strained expression.
sorry, i just don't like this man. there has already been tons of complaints about the choice. but I wasn't around when JP II came in, there might have been bad stories about hmi at first as well.

I look at his age in a differnet way, he's 79, chances are, he'll be gone soon enough and maybe when he is gone we will be ready for that black pope. (think we are far from female president, but i would love to see that too!)

Writing4Fun
April 21st, 2005, 09:28 AM
I actually had goosebumps seeing the white smoke ... then watching as the bells started to move, live.
i'm not catholic, I think im ore just like the history of the process. its great.
You know, that's funny. When my husband and I were watching the funeral, he mentioned how impressive the scenes were - like nothing has changed in 2000 years, like it would have been completely normal to see a chariot rolling by. :D We both love Europe and the history to be found there. When you think of it, Canada (and the US) are mere toddlers when compared to Eastern civilization. It's a little humbling, IMO.

I, too, had goosebumps watching the scene unfold - all those people united in peace! And when they started chanting and singing and crying together, tears welled up in my eyes as well.

I am Roman Catholic, and I was torn. The "Roman" half of me wanted to see an Italian take the Papacy again. The "Western" half of me was rooting for the African. I love history and tradition, but I think there are times when tradition needs to move on.

Oh, and I almost didn't come into this thread because I thought, when I read the title, that it was baseball related! :crazy:

chico2
April 21st, 2005, 09:50 AM
Prin,I actually thought your thread was Bird-related :D
I am not catholic or anything else for that matter,historically I suppose this was an important event.
I don't want to hurt anyones feelings,but while watching all this pomp and golden luxuries,I cannot help thinking of all the faithful in Africa,who are dying of AIDS because the catholic church will not condone the use of contraceptives or the blessing of the super poor in South America urging more children,only to have them eat out of a garbage-dump.
People are dying of preventable diseases and starvation all over the world,affirmative action is needed from the church,blessings do not feed the hungry.
Pope Benedict XVI,was a member of the Hitler Youth,but I believe he deserted and fled.The Vatican did however have other not so popular involvment with the Nazies.

Writing4Fun
April 21st, 2005, 10:07 AM
I cannot help thinking of all the faithful in Africa,who are dying of AIDS because the catholic church will not condone the use of contraceptives or the blessing of the super poor in South America urging more children,only to have them eat out of a garbage-dump.
;) And that's what I meant when I said there are times when tradition needs to move on.

Princesss04
April 21st, 2005, 10:55 AM
Prin,I actually thought your thread was Bird-related :D
I am not catholic or anything else for that matter,historically I suppose this was an important event.
I don't want to hurt anyones feelings,but while watching all this pomp and golden luxuries,I cannot help thinking of all the faithful in Africa,who are dying of AIDS because the catholic church will not condone the use of contraceptives or the blessing of the super poor in South America urging more children,only to have them eat out of a garbage-dump.
People are dying of preventable diseases and starvation all over the world,affirmative action is needed from the church,blessings do not feed the hungry.
Pope Benedict XVI,was a member of the Hitler Youth,but I believe he deserted and fled.The Vatican did however have other not so popular involvment with the Nazies.


Good point Chico I agree!

CyberKitten
April 21st, 2005, 12:38 PM
I am a Catholic (not as active as I probably should be tho I have reserved time from when I played guitar at mass when I was younger - I hope that counts later :crazy: - my dad always tell friends his age (he is in his 70's) that his friends who go to Church on a regular basis that they're "cramming for the finals", lol).

But I too initially thought the thread was either about the gorgeous red birds or the baseball team, haha. Then men in red robes were third on my list.

They did move fast - no hanging chads or butterfly ballots for these guys? - BUT they also do not give the vote to women and they are a very undemocratic exclsuive club. (Mind you, I know the Church is not a democracy and am reminded of that very good book by Notre Dame theologan John L MacKenaize entitled "Auhtority in the Church."

I hope thise choice is more progressive than he seems.

Luvmypit
April 21st, 2005, 02:14 PM
I agree with you guys some things in the church like the condoning of contraceptives in Africa needs to change. My concern is with people who want to moedrnize it and make the church accepting of gay marriage (I do except it), woman priests, capital punishment and abortion. This is a religion that has certain values and just because our society has become more lax in these things and has progressed I do not think they should change. It should be just as traditional as it was 50 years ago. Then what is the point of the religion if you change it to suit your self. I believe you can have your own opinions and the church certainly doesn't condone that but has to stay true to what made it religion in the first place. The world needs to change not the church as I heard one cardinal say. That is why I wonder how people could say we should have gotten a more liberal pope. Its not like what the pope says is law so i really don't understand this thinking.
As for the age of the pope. Pope John II lasted longer then most popes. They prefer it that way. They purposely try to pick an older pope so the papicy doesnt last for decades. I am Catholic, but I dont go to church. i dont agree with all that the pope says but I treat them as guidelines.
So I like this pope because he is conservative. Hes the priest of all priests, he if anyone in the church should remain traditional and conservative.
Im pro choice, but against capital punishment. Think Gay marriage is fine but I dont think the Catholic church or any other religion should be forced to accept it. I don't believe in woman priests. Im not sure why. They have their role in the church but Im sure you give me a good argument I could sway easily on that. That whole Africa visit Pope john did I was upset he incouraged all those africans to not use contraceptive. Made me sick. I just realized that your your own person and I have my morals and I stick to them. Yes I take some guidelines from the catholic church but I dont live my life by them by any means. Thats my opinion.

CyberKitten
April 21st, 2005, 02:27 PM
I am a strong believer in women Priests! It is one of the reasons I get angry when I go to Church - it makes me so angry that what we have as Priests are often men who could not get into other grad schools - at least at the local Church. (Does not help that one of the local Priests I went to school with and he had a hard time to even pass!). That said, I think if one uses the Church's argument that Jesus selected men for the role of disciple - those men were also jewish and fishermen. So why are not Priests Jewish and fishermen? (rhetorical question). Anyway -- that is my feeling! I know some women who have felt called to be Priests - but my Church turns it back on women when it treats us this way! It just irks me so much!!

Jackie467
April 21st, 2005, 03:04 PM
I am roman catholic. I was also raised in a very deeply religious family. I believe the pope was chosen because he was the best possible choice and I will stand by him though all. I sometimes wonder about the progression in the catholic religion. It's hard to see but it has been progressing, for instance when my mother was a child they couldn't eat meat on any friday didn't matter if it was lent or not. My mother was not permitted to play any sports or watch TV on sundays because it was the day of rest. Now a days you are not considered sinning just for doing these things (the church has decided that the Lord wouldn't see them as sins). I also don't have a problem with women not being priests. When I was young I asked our father (priest) why they weren't allowed and what he told me was it was because priests are not allowed to have children and God specifically blessed women with this ability and because women were so special in this respect God wanted to be sure that they could have the children if they wanted. because if they chose to be a priest and then later regretted the dicision and wanted to have children if they did they would be committing a sin against God by leaving the priest hood. I'm not sure why but after he told me that it all made sense. I'm sure I didn't put it as well as he had. He was a very special priest to me (God rest his soul), when I was young I spent a lot of time at church when my parents were really going at it, and he would bring me back to his house where he lived with his sister and she would make us something to eat and we would all sit in the garden and say some prayers and eat. It's one of my fondest memories.

CyberKitten
April 21st, 2005, 03:14 PM
Actually, our current Parish Priest is a good friend - like me an Irish Catholic who makes the requisite visit to Ireland every year. We went together once - not long after my ex and I divorced - you can imagine how that went over in the Parish among the older women in the CWL, lol I do like the traditions of the Church but I also think it needs to change with the times. I really hope this guy will grow into the Papcy (I liked John 23rd - a little before my time but he set up Vatican II at least) and I wonder what really happened to John Paul I since he was so progressive. But I just find it frustrating sometimes to listen to someone ill informed give advice at the alter, sigh! (Maybe I have hig expectations, lol)

chico2
April 21st, 2005, 04:50 PM
I grew up non-religous with my mom,although I am baptiste and confirmed Lutheran.
I always had the naive idea,that priests and pastors should live a humble life,serving their God,not in the lap of luxury,being treated like Kings,living in a guilded castle as in the Vatican.
We here in the western world,can pick and choose what is agreeable to us and what we will live by.
But in the third world,where maybe the only thing they have to hang on to is their faith,the word of the Pope is gospel.I've always been very disturbed by the power that still exists in the Vatican and the billions of $$$ that goes directly to the Vatican from often impoverished nations.
Just 1% of the Vatican business could give African Aids patients the medicin they need.
Priests,pastors and Popes are supposed to represent Gods will,not live in castles and be looked upon as the ulimate idol,if there is a God,I am sure that is not what he had in mind.
Sorry for the rant,I am just very much against everything the Vatican represents.

Prin
April 22nd, 2005, 12:20 AM
Just about the contraceptives in Africa-- In the early 1990's, Coke-a-cola changed their formula and all of a sudden the birth rate went up in Africa. They figured out that the women were using it as a contraceptive "douche" and the changed formula was less acidic, and I guess killed less sperm. Nice, eh?

And as for the old pope, they said that they wanted to keep them old because a few hundred years ago thay had a very young pope who turned the Vatican into a brothel... So they say. :)

As for women priests, a lot of times, women are more comforting and nurturing than men, and I think that would be an asset to any church. My grandmother was United, and her reverend was a woman and, quite frankly, I have been to church and was always baffled at what was said, but this woman was so personal and caring. Of course since her congregation was so successful, they now ship her all over to mend others...

As for traditions, I think religion is religion. Different religions sprung because people believed different things. I don't agree with so much that the Catholic church preaches, but I feel if you don't like it, just don't be a part of that religion. But on the same token, the clergy should stop complaining about dwindling numbers...

There is a church somewhere in Montreal, I don't remember which one, but I went there for a choir thing my friend was in, and the walls were gold. GOLD. It was so gaudy, I thought, who would give this church money? It seems they have enough.

My dad grew up heavily Catholic (my grandfather being of Irish descent too...), and he tried so hard to get me and my brothers into it, but it wouldn't take. For some reason, from Day 1, none of us believed. I think I was 4 when my dad decided that we would go to church every weekend and the first weekend, we all fell asleep and my dad was so ashamed... We stopped going.

Not having a religion is not all good though. I mean yeah, we can have sex whenever we want, use contraceptives, have abortions, marry the same sex, but we lose the comfort of knowing where we will go when we die. That is a very important thing for a lot of people. I've come to accept that I don't know, but so many people find it so scary, and believing in heaven takes the edge off.

Talking about Ireland, CK, I lived there for about 6 months a few years ago, in the south. A guy I worked with went to church 6 times a week. I tell you though, he was a rotten human being. He had the idea in his head that as long as he went to church, he would be forgiven for all the crap he'd done all day. And then I went up to Belfast and stayed with the daughter of a Catholic judge, who had had her house blown up when she was 18, and burned half her head. It was a bit of a warp for me to see and hear things like that, coming from such a liberal lifestyle.

Nobody is perfect, I guess.

BEAR_NZ
April 25th, 2005, 01:33 AM
i have found this post facinating. Not being a catholic myself, i still watched in awe at the tradition, the age old proceedures that have been recently carried out in the election of the new pope... and also, fascinated at the masses of people gathered in Rome and around the Roman Catholic communities in the world.
Then, like Chico2, i find myself back to the real issues... where people are struggling and dying and sick, and desperately need help to survive.there really seems to be such a lack of equilibrium in the world.imagine if all those masses of people gathered not in Rome but ethiopia to deliver aid....

melanie
April 27th, 2005, 06:24 PM
i was raised catholic and had a great attachment to pope john paul, he was the pope of my life time and a darn good fellow to boot. as a pope he went beyond his call of duty, helped millions and i also find him similar to mother thereasa, in the sense he was a very good person looking to help out for what he consideered the betterment of humans. there are few such ppl around today, to me he represents the death of good giving people, people who lived by belief weather right or wrong, and he wa the pope that came in at the end of the Ratlines saga (nazi war criminal smuggling)(many excellent books about the issue). so when i consider when he came into the job, it makes me think the church was trying to change and he was a fresh breath of air.

now the new pope, i freak out at his association with nazis, but he did run away and all that so he may have just been in the same position as many young german men of the time, he was forced into it. so i give him that. the reason he is so old is the church do not want to change, they dont want a radical and it was obvious they were going for a traditionalist. its really interesting. and the fact he is old and wont last long, very interesting.

as far as female priests, ppl following religion blindly (to the point of giving up will and doing as told) and all that nasty stuff, you know what, i get sick of hearing ppl blame the church. hey humans have will, and brains for gods sake. the catholic church has not changed much since it started, they are open about their ways and if one chooses to go with that religion they go with the practices and beliefs too, i dont understand why woman should be catholic priests, the catholic church is clear about who they are, they are clear about the lack of will to change and their lack of desirte for female priests, so why keep pushing for the impossible. also if woman want to be spiritual leaders there is room around the world in many religions for that. it seems that when ppl dont get what they want, or something fails they blame the nearest thing, and in many cases the catholic church. basically if ppl dont like the church they should go elsewhere and find the faith for them. i

f they want the church to change to suit their desires, practices, lifestyles or such they should develop their own churches for goodness sake, i mean really, do you see me pushing into a masons meeting and demanding i attend, no because i use my brain and see that the masons dont allow such practice and i respect that and their beliefs, i may not think they are great but i respect them,, if i want my own version of such a group then i must invent it, not jsut bully my way into it.

but then its up to the individual, but on another note the bible is a lovely historical tale, may not be very true and written by men (in my belief to control woman- they were afraid of our power and revive patriachial societies, oh and to give them excuse for sin) but yet it is a lovely book, interesting and a good guide of past events, but like any historical investigation and writings it is up to the individual writier and reader to interperate events and their own beliefs.