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Is Iams bad?

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 10:55 PM
At the risk of stirring up a HUGE can of worms (but hey, debates are often *very educational*), I'd like to pose the question; prove to me that Iams is bad.

Here are a few links to get us started:

From a company that will get donations from people who care about animals if they can make it seem that one of the biggest pet-food manufacturers in North America harms animals (aka, PETA):
http://www.iamscruelty.com/
http://www.peta.org/feat/iams/fifi.html

And I'm sure there are tons more.

From a company that makes money hand over fist providing food to millions of animals across the world, and who stands to lose everything if this is true (aka, Iams): (apologies for the length of these links!)
http://www.iams.com/en_BI/jhtmls/faq/sw_Faq_detail.jhtml?li=en_BI&pti=FQ&bc=I&qi=2171
http://www.iamstruth.com/iamstruth/en_US/jhtmls/article/IT_Article_Page.jhtml?li=en_US&pti=RP&articleID=6
http://www.iamstruth.com/iamstruth/en_US/jhtmls/article/IT_Article_Page.jhtml?li=en_US&pti=WO&articleID=7

From a completely un-biased source--one that doesn't stand to gain anything either way, but works for the greater good for animals (aka The American Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals):
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iamsstatement
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iams

Ok... and that's all I can find at the moment that is one or the other or none.

Prin
April 14th, 2005, 11:07 PM
Iams is just not a great dog or cat food anyway. Even without the cruelty, there are way better ways to feed your pet.

And the ASPCA is not biased, read this from the ASPCA site:
Today, The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) and The Iams Company took a step toward decreasing these numbers by announcing "Lifelong FriendsTM ," a comprehensive program designed to heighten awareness of the quality pets available at shelters and improve the pet-parent matches made at shelters.

With the announcement, The Iams Company will give more than $200,000 in grants to 10 shelters across the U.S in an effort to expand and improve shelter adoption programs. In addition, Iams and The ASPCA will work with participating shelters to develop guidelines for prospective pet parents that will help pet parents find a perfect addition for their family at a shelter.
Pay me $200 000 and I'll be on your side too. :rolleyes:

amber416
April 14th, 2005, 11:27 PM
Are you asking if Iams is bad on a strictly nutritional level or are you referring to the animal testing? The actual food is not very good, not much to debate there. Look at the first four ingredients, i believe when i checked a bag of Iams adult cat food it went something like chicken, chicken by-products, corn, and then some other kind of corn. I could be a bit off as i'm going on memory here but it was not good. If you are looking to start a debate about the Iams cruelty issues you can do a search of the forum and find plenty of Iams info. I believe it has been debated/discussed extensively already.

Lucky Rescue
April 15th, 2005, 12:17 AM
With the announcement, The Iams Company will give more than $200,000 in grants to 10 shelters across the U.S in an effort to expand and improve shelter adoption programs.

Ummm..yeah - I'd say there could be a teeny bit of bias there.;)

dogmelissa
April 15th, 2005, 01:10 AM
Not really asking, just opening it up for debate.

Reading off the package I have at home (I feed 2/3 of my cats Iams):
Iams Active Maturity Hairball Care Cat food: Chicken by-product meal, Chicken, Corn Grits, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum....
In comparison: Hills Science Diet Light Cat food (which I combine w/ Hills Sensitive stomach for my 3rd cat): Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, powdered cellulose....

Given the first 4 ingredients, I'd say the Iams is *much* better, yet it makes my other kitty extremely sick.

More comparisons?? Well that's all I feed my cats around here, and everyone is healthy and happy, with the exception of the cat eating the Science Diet who has started to show signs that something just isn't right again. I'm thinking of switching him to something for allergies and try to rule out an allergy, but it's been difficult enough trying to find dog-allergy foods that I don't really want to add to the frustration I'm causing many pet-store owners around here.

As far as the abuse part goes; everyone is entitled to their opinion. If they don't like Iams because they think they abuse animals, that's permitted. I personally don't like PETA because I think they spend too much time trying to make news rather than help the animals. I think all that they do is stir up cr@p to try to get companies in trouble who are genuinely trying to make large numbers of animals better, even if they have to test things on a few animals to do so.

But then again, all I have to do is remember one girl and it all becomes funny. This girl was a vegan, and her pets ate a home-made vegan diet. But her shoes were leather. Personally, I use all parts of the cow, I eat what I can, wear the outsides, grind up the insides and give them to my pets, and what I can't grind up, eat, or wear... well I'm sure *someone* has a use for it, and if not, then it'll decompose and feed some worms, who fertilize the grass to feed the other cows who are next on my list. :)

Melissa

Cactus Flower
April 15th, 2005, 01:19 AM
Not really asking, just opening it up for debate.

It has been debated at length in this forum. If you do a simple search, you'll find enough to keep you reading into next week.

Prin
April 15th, 2005, 01:26 AM
Here are threads with ingredient lists: (I searched the forums for Bison because it seems I list ingredients more than anybody and whenever I mention solid gold, there is bison in it...)
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=13893&page=1&pp=30
This one has lists of cat food:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=13841

Comparison:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=13473&highlight=bison
What is in your pet food:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=13203&highlight=bison
And a recent one about small dog food:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=14056&highlight=bison

This is about cat raw diets:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=13613

With this list, there are a ton of comparisons to check out.

Writing4Fun
April 15th, 2005, 08:02 AM
Reading off the package I have at home (I feed 2/3 of my cats Iams):
Iams Active Maturity Hairball Care Cat food: Chicken by-product meal, Chicken, Corn Grits, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum....
In comparison: Hills Science Diet Light Cat food (which I combine w/ Hills Sensitive stomach for my 3rd cat): Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, powdered cellulose....

Given the first 4 ingredients, I'd say the Iams is *much* better, yet it makes my other kitty extremely sick.
Given the ingredients you listed here, I'd say they are both bad foods. CORN should not be listed in the first 5 ingredients of any food. BY-PRODUCTS should not be listed in the first 5 ingredients of any food. Iams and Science Diet - or any food you can buy at your grocery store, for that matter - are junk food for your pets. It's not a matter for debate - it's a fact that has been discussed at length on this forum. Get yourself to a pet food store, like Global&Ryan's, or even PetSmart (if you know what you're looking for). Read all the labels, side by side, and compare. HTH.

chico2
April 15th, 2005, 08:12 AM
Neither Science Diet or IAMS is something I would want to eat if I were a cat,today there are a plentitude of great foods out there,no need to feed your cats corn and chickenfeathers!!!

Schwinn
April 15th, 2005, 10:10 AM
I'm not sure why when someone wants to debate certain things, they should have to go back to an old thread. Even if it has been debated at length, if they have something they want to talk about something, they should be able to, and anyone who doesn't want to participate, or feels it's been talked about enough, can choose not to get involved. Just my opinion, but to me, that's what an open forum is for. It's kind of like mentioning something to my friend, and he says, "oh, we already talked about that before". Being a guy, we have limited things we talk about, so we need to recycle topics once in a while...

amber416
April 15th, 2005, 11:07 AM
Don't really see the point of debating things if they've already been debated to death, unless somebody has something they really feel wasn't said before and should be added, for others education. Looks like this poster was simply reopening it and I think pointing this poster to old posts that can educate her on different aspects (which is hopefully what she was looking to get from the debate) is better than ignoring her post because people don't feel like participating again. Plus debates like this seem to always get heated and then people take offense and unecessary comments about flames and "being nice" end up taking up the majority of the thread as the original topic becomes lost. But that is just my opinion.

Beetlecat
April 15th, 2005, 11:41 AM
Reading off the package I have at home (I feed 2/3 of my cats Iams):
Iams Active Maturity Hairball Care Cat food: Chicken by-product meal, Chicken, Corn Grits, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum....

In comparison: Hills Science Diet Light Cat food (which I combine w/ Hills Sensitive stomach for my 3rd cat): Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, powdered cellulose....


The *first* ingredient in Science diet light is rice!? Wow, I didn't know such things existed? I remeber thinking Science diet was a good catfood when I was young 'cause it was sold in the vets office. I figured it was like a hair salon, the products sold there were automatically better... :rolleyes:

I can't believe we used to feed Science diet to our hedgehogs. For an animal that naturally eats insects, eating corn and rice must have been pretty hard on them. I occationally supplmented my girl with earthworms and crickets, maybe that was why she lived so much longer than the rest. Something for me to think about anyways.

And powdered cellulose? It's like the makers just said, "Okay, now how much total crap can we put in this catfood so that overweight cats will lose weight fast 'cause there are no nutrients of any value here."

I wouldn't feed either of those foods to anything. At the very least I demand that the 1st 2 ingedients are some type of meat, and that corn is not listed in the top 5 (preferably not listed at all)

You'll probably continue feeding those foods, which is fine to me since it's your life and your animals. I'll also continue feeding what I'm feeding and I will never switch to Iams or Science diet.

Prin
April 15th, 2005, 02:06 PM
Beetlecat, it's not just rice it's BREWER's rice-- very bad.

Beetlecat
April 15th, 2005, 03:56 PM
You're right Prin, I just looked it up:

Brewer's Rice is the small milled fragment of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice. Brewer's rice is a lower quality rice product that is missing many of the nutrients found in ground rice and ground brown rice. It is basically a waste product of the alcohol industry.


And here are some more ingredients I'd stay away from:

Propylene Glycol is a chemical preservative used as a less-toxic version of automotive antifreeze.

Poultry By-Product Meal consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcasses of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines; exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices. This is a low-quality, inconsistent ingredient, with multiple organs used, constantly changing proportions, and questionable nutritional value. The origin can be any fowl (turkeys, ducks, geese, buzzards, etc.), instead of a single source, like chicken. Poultry by-product meal is much less expensive and less digestible than chicken meal.

Corn Gluten Meal is the dried residue from corn after the removal of the larger part of the starch and germ, and the separation of the bran by the process employed in the wet milling manufacture of cornstarch or syrup, or by enzymatic treatment of the endosperm. Corn gluten in dog foods is cheap protein filler.

Dried Beet Pulp is the dried residue from sugar beets, which has been cleaned, freed from crowns, leaves, and sand, and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. Dried beet pulp is added to some pet foods to act as a fibrous stool hardener.

Meat By-Products consist of organs and parts either not desired, or condemned, for human consumption. This can include bones, blood, intestines, lungs, ligaments, heads, feet, and feathers.

http://www.ourpetfood.com/comparison.html

raingirl
April 15th, 2005, 04:11 PM
iams as a company=bad

iams as a food=bad

need we say more.

CyberKitten
April 15th, 2005, 04:28 PM
I debated this issue awhile back on this forum and I am not getting into it again - one can search for the info. <g>

I would NEVER NEVER NEVER feed Iams to my cat! I don't care how much money they bribe various causes. Even without the indiscrimnate testing of animals - which they do very poorly (at least in terms of how the animals are treated - I have no idea whether their research is valid) - the food is certainly not the best for a cat.

Schwinn
April 15th, 2005, 04:38 PM
I'm not going to debate the quality of thier food, because I honestly don't know, but as to the company being bad, I have to say, respectfully, that I'm very skeptical. Of all the reasearch I've done on the internet, it's only PETA that has anything bad to say, and there is certainly plenty out there to refute PETA's evidence. I certainly don't think they are any worse than any other major pet food company, especially after reading the back ground history on why PETA has chosen to go after IAMs.

MIA
April 15th, 2005, 04:43 PM
Just remember WHO IAMS is made by..... It's Proctor & Gamble and I personally do not buy ANY Products that they make as they animal test on most of thier products, it's a personal choice to support companies that do NOT animal test.

CyberKitten
April 15th, 2005, 05:12 PM
I made a promise I would not say more and this is the last, lol Schwinn, I am no fan of PETA too. They seem to care more for themselves and their causes in the abstract than they do about actual animal care AND they are a little too outlandish in their methods for me. However, I have read a couple reports about Iams that did not come courtesy of PETA. If it were just PETA, I would question it - given their record.

I will stick with the best nutrional product I can find. For me that is Wellness tho I do understand some others are good too. YY came with Hills Science Kitten food but I switched her over gradually - Hills Science was OK but from what I read at the time, Wellness was just a little better. (I cannot even recall the exact points now). Anyway - that's my piece. :)

Schwinn
April 15th, 2005, 05:22 PM
That's fine, and admirable. Just make sure that you realize the ingrediants in the products you buy from companies that don't test on animals may have been tested previously. I know this is a sensitive issue with some, so I'm not going to get into companies, but there are several companies high on the pulpit about being against animal testing, when they use ingrediants that are tested by other companies on animals. I have seen cases where one company puts out the results of thier tests, and then the company against animal testing then chooses to use the same ingrediants because there is now a study showing it is safe. There is another case of a company that bought an "animal tested free" product, and removed that lable. Some animal rights group suddenly went on the attack. But the reason behind the move was the new company felt it was misleading, because the ingrediants were tested on animals previously, and it was no longer necessary to test them on animals any more. Some ingrediants aren't actually "animal test free", but no longer "animal tested".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against anyone who chooses to avoid products that aren't listed as "animal cruelty free". I, too, make choices based on my own moral beliefs, and some of those can be refuted by the same type of arguements as above. We can only do what we can do.

Schwinn
April 15th, 2005, 05:24 PM
...I have read a couple reports about Iams that did not come courtesy of PETA.


Do you have those? I am honestly interested in seeing them, only because I haven't been able to find anything other than from PETA. Or if you have any idea who did them or any info you could give that would help me search on the web, I'd appreciate it. I'm usually known as "the guy who can find anything", but I wasn't able to find anything that was derived from PETA's info.

MIA
April 15th, 2005, 06:01 PM
I go to great lengths to investigate what products I buy, and I know about the 'testing chain' so to speak. It's an individual choice, just as I only buy certified organic free range meat and eggs! I am sure somewhere in the line of production ingredients were tested, I just try my best to support companies that do not test nor support testing, it's a royal pain and can be more expensive but that's what I choose to do with my consumer power (how little it really is).

If people really knew more about the products they buy I am sure many wouldn't be too happy!!!!

CyberKitten
April 15th, 2005, 07:45 PM
Schwinn, the 1st time I heard about Iams and cruelty was a veternary medicine journal where I read about Iams (before I saw the video on the PETA site but the journal article was independent of the PETA stuff. The article does not say it is cruelty (and it was funded in part by Iams) but any study that requires dogs to be killed is not in my view worthwhile research. (I could see if they examined the dogs post mortem with their "owner's" permission but deliberately killing them for the study is not humane.

The study is : White J. V. et al, "Effect of dietary protein on functional, morphologic, and histologic changes of the kidney during compensatory renal growth in dogs", Am J Vet Res, Vol 52, No. 8, August 1991, pp. 1357 - 1365 (No.2 in tabulated file).

Like most research journals, the research methods are outlined (It would never be published otherwise I suppose). It says: "24 young adult mixed breed dogs were given 'acute' (meaning 'rapid onset, severe symptoms') renal (kidney) failure. This was achieved by cutting the dogs twice in the abdomen area, removing one of the kidneys and destroying 75% of the remaining one by cutting off the blood supply to that proportion of the kidney. Thus the dogs were left with only one-eighth of normal renal function.

I have never had a dog with kidney failure but I have seen in it humans. It is painful regardless of species! According the article, post renal failure, 22 of the 24 dogs died. The article also stated: "Dogs that became dehydrated were administered replacement fluids... Other supportive treatment was not administered."

It also added: "After seven months, eight dogs were killed so the condition of their remaining quarter kidney could be examined. Seven months later the remaining ten dogs were killed."

In yet more Iams sponsored research (and often these studies were completed by Iams employees - reminds me of vets who work for meat producing plants, sigh!), specifically, Bueno A. R. et al, "Feline colonic microbes and fatty acid transport: effects of feeding cellulose, beet pulp and pectin/gum arabic fibers", Nutrition Research, Vol. 20, No. 9, pp. 1319-1328, 2000. (No.1 in tabulated file),a sample of 28 cats was used. The researchers write: "All cats were short-haired females, 2 to 5 years of age and purchased from a government approved class-A distributor. The cats were split into groups of two or three, housed in indoor enclosures and fed differing diets for 2 to 3 weeks. One of the cats "was removed from the study for an unthrifty appearance." (I have no idea what they mean by an "unthrifty" appeareance -)

During the "colonic perfusion study" the animals were anaesthetised and "maintained at surgical anaesthesia", laid down on their sides, and their abdomens cut open. A catheter placed into the colon and a tube placed in the animals' rectum. Their bowels were then flushed empty.

For two hours, a test solution was pumped through the cats' bowels and collected every ten minutes.

I do not know at what stage the kitties were killed. I cannot understand why a journal would ethically publish this work tho - other than it being significantly finded by Iams. In yet another study, "The research team sterilised 24 female cats, which were over-fed until they become obese. They were then starved on a crash diet and when they had lost a third of their weight their livers were examined to investigate the link between weight loss and liver disease." This one is in Ibrahim W. H. et al, "Effect of dietary protein quality and fatty acid composition on plasma lipoprotein concentrations and hepatic triglyceride fatty acid synthesis in obese cats undergoing rapid weight loss", AJVR, Vol 61, No. 5, May 2000, pp.566-572. (No.13 in tabulated file)

Once the cats had reached obese proportions, they were placed on a diet that only provided them with 25% of their "energy requirements for 7 to 8 weeks, or until cats had lost 30 to 40% of their obese body weight". This was to mimic "rapid weight loss in cats". Two of the cats did not even manage to consume a quarter of their nutritional needs.

The writers said: "Safe, rapid weight loss in cats can be difficult, because cats have special dietary requirements that appear to make them more susceptible than other species to HL." (hepatic lipidosis, a disease of the liver which results in impaired liver function.) Three of the cats in this study developed the disease.

I have read a list of some 30 plus studies funded by Iams or conducted on their premises or with people in their employ. Most involve the death of animals and certainly in all, animals were made deliberately ill.

I do not have all of them here - my secretary might find them if they are at work tho it was a while ago so I doubt I have that stuff anymore.

I only later - last year I think - read the stuff from PETA- the so called "expose" they did.

There is a worldwide boycott of Proctor and Gamble because of the various groups (Incl PETA) but one has to research to find out what products they make. (I am not personally certain if this works but a more general boycott of Iams would get the message across.)

I do not know if any of these are online but go to a library at any vet school or even lexus nexus at a med school and you can find them. (I think I found them using Quest - this was in 90's, pre browser days and when the internet meant Archie and Gopher. <g>)

I know research has to be conducted but as someone who does extensive research, I know there are many humane ways to do it.

Safyre
April 15th, 2005, 07:51 PM
Justice has reacted to many differnet foods that we have put her on, the only food she has not reacted to at this time is the Iams Lamb and Rice Formula. We have tried Canusa, Pedigree, Nutrience, darn, can't think of them all.
I have seen a few people saying what should NOT be within the first idgrediants, what SHOULD be in the first ingredients?
Some of the foods that I have seen talked about on other posts, I have NO idea what you all are talking about, they are brands I have never even heard of, or seen in my area (sw ontario)
We KNOW that Justice is allergic to wheat. She reacts to 'heavy' foods, she throws them up, does not keep them down. She gets sick on peanut butter. She HATES veggies (won't touch em)
What would YOU feed my dog?? :confused:

coppperbelle
April 15th, 2005, 08:13 PM
Justice has reacted to many differnet foods that we have put her on, the only food she has not reacted to at this time is the Iams Lamb and Rice Formula. We have tried Canusa, Pedigree, Nutrience, darn, can't think of them all.
I have seen a few people saying what should NOT be within the first idgrediants, what SHOULD be in the first ingredients?
Some of the foods that I have seen talked about on other posts, I have NO idea what you all are talking about, they are brands I have never even heard of, or seen in my area (sw ontario)
We KNOW that Justice is allergic to wheat. She reacts to 'heavy' foods, she throws them up, does not keep them down. She gets sick on peanut butter. She HATES veggies (won't touch em)
What would YOU feed my dog?? :confused:

Foods are listed by weight. The first ingredients should be a meat meal. Things that should be avoided are corn, wheat, corn gluten, by-products, brewers rice, to name a few.
I feed Solid Gold, Wolf King but it is expensive. Other good foods are Wellness, Natural Balance, Eagle Pack and Innova although I know of a few people that have had major problems with Innova.
It is important to feed foods that are available in your area and also that you can afford. There is nothing wrong with feeding a food like Iams if it is the best you can afford.

les
April 15th, 2005, 08:16 PM
I just bought Nutro Ultra Dog Food today for my 2 dogs. They seemed to love it at dinner and picked around their old food and only ate the new!

I was feeding them Hills t/d from the vets and my chocolate lab seems to be fine on it but doesn't seem to love it and often just won't eat. My new guy has been okay eating Hills but his coat is kinda dry and blah and I thought maybe switching to something more "natural" would help.

But I also am confused as to which brand is the best??? Is Nutro Ultra pretty good or is something better??? I'm not concerned about the price (at the vets I was paying 48.00 for a large bag!) I just want to feed them whats best!

coppperbelle
April 15th, 2005, 08:17 PM
While Iams is not the best food on the market it is not the worst.

As for the company doing animal testing there is an article in the Whole Dog Journal this month. It seems like PETA was looking to target a company. Iams happened to be the one. I am sure there are other companies that are just as guilty but they have not been exposed.
Apparently since PETA exposed Iams they have really cleaned up their act and animals are treated better.

Safyre
April 15th, 2005, 08:24 PM
Canusa is a food that I had couriered down from Kitchener-Waterloo, because it is an AWESOME food for the breed I have. But it has wheat so she has a bad treaction to it.
Price is not an issue.
I have never heard of Solid Gold, Wolf King ... I have seen it mentioned multiple times, but have never seen it in my area.
Wellness I know is another one we have tried. Justice is 16 months, she started reacting to food at about 7 months. We try each food for about 6 weeks (less if she is getting sick on it immeditely)
Just wondering what other foods they have put their wheat allergic dogs on?

Prin
April 15th, 2005, 09:08 PM
Wellness is heavy compared to Solid Gold. Jemma was on Wellness when we got her and she barely ate. She was free fed in her previous home because she ate so little.

If you have the money, Safyre, I would suggest the Wolf King. Your doggy will LOVE it. And the fur will get so shiny that you'll feel guilty for thinking of feeding anything else. Go here to find a store:(it's a little outdated but even if you find one or two stores, it'll help...)
Eastern Distributer (http://www.jollypet.com)

As for the testing stuff, last summer when I couldn't find a job, I was offered a job taking care of animals. I thought it was cleaning the cages and such but it was going to be watching 200 monkeys, 50 dogs and 50 cats die slowly in toxicology tests where they would be administering more and more drug until the animals got sick or died. I obviously didn't get the job, but I left so traumatized. Who in their right mind would go through animal health and decide to do that? Only a super pro-human type-- the ones who say "Well, it's worth it if it benefits us later", I guess. Disgusting.

Safyre
April 15th, 2005, 09:19 PM
eek, seems the closest to me is in London/Windsor, both an hour away.

There is ONE lil store here in chatham that probably wouldn't get listed on that website, so i'll give her a call in the morning, see if it something she has or can order in.
I don't mind spending the money on my dogs food, its just finding one she is going to do well on.
Right now, Iams Lamb and Rice is great, she is losing weight as we want her to (she was a lil tubby) and she has had no bad side effects, it has been 2 1/2 months on this food *fingers crossed* i hate having to switch her foods.

CyberKitten
April 15th, 2005, 09:20 PM
Re who is going to do that? Alas, there is no shortage of supply of veternarians who work for Meatpacking companies and other organizations like that, sigh!

Prin
April 15th, 2005, 09:31 PM
I guess these guys are the ones that got the spot I didn't in vet school. I wondered how people who have never even seen an animal get a job after vet school but I can use my imagination now...

CyberKitten
April 15th, 2005, 10:29 PM
I met someone via my work who is a vet for a company like that. She was a provincial Liberal candidate at one time and presented herself as this great humane person involved in all these causes. And she essentially made sure cows were well enough to be killed. That I suppose is better than someone who does research on these poor animals! We do need to know that our meat is safe - not that I will ever at beef again!