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Pups sold in pet stores... please read

Jsled
April 12th, 2005, 08:38 AM
Bella’s Story - By Jennifer Sled, Kelowna, BC




April 11, 2005. How many of us have ever had a pet? More importantly, how many of us had ever had a pet that felt more like a member of the family than a pet? If you can say yes to that question then please keep reading.

In this story you will learn about a puppy named Bella. You will learn about where she came from; a pet store. I will also tell you how these pups are cared for, or should I say not cared for, by these pet stores. I must warn you, you may feel angry after reading this article.
I am not going to name the particular pet store in which Bella was saved from, but I will mention that they are a local pet store, franchise owned, who carries puppies and kittens.

Let’s start at the beginning. As an animal lover I have been known to bring home one from time to time, just ask my parents and their three cats!

I had been thinking about getting a dog for some time now. Doing a ton of research, looking at the SPCA, in the paper etc, but not finding the one that I knew should be my dog. That is until I met Bella.

Prior to meeting Bella I was particularly neutral about pet stores selling dogs.

Maybe it’s because I hadn’t walked into this store yet. Upon entering the store I felt an immediate connection with this puppy, the way she licked my nose, cuddled in my arms, and looked into my eyes sent my heart skipping.

After spending a couple of hours with her that afternoon at the pet store I had inquired about the price of her. I was blown away to learn that she was $800.00.

She is not even a purebred!

This still bothered me. Typically a breeder will sell pups to a store for around $300 a dog. Why such a high mark-up? Well the store only has one thing in mind… profit. But what about the most important thing, care? Nope, it was evident that was the last thing on their mind.

All of the dogs in the store are supposed to have a tag around their neck for identification, and the matching to the correct health record to the correct pup.

Bella did not even have a tag on. So, with the process of elimination I learned that there wasn’t even a health record for Bella. The employee told me that they had probably sold another pup with her health record. But there wasn’t even an “extra” record for the already sold dog. So right away I am alarmed that someone purchased a dog, and has the wrong health record, and the poor owner has no idea.

The health record is not just proof that the dog has been vaccinated, and de-wormed. It also informs the owner of any health problems that the pup might have.

For example, one of the health records said that a particular dog had a hernia, and a lazy lower jaw. These are things that could become problems in the future, and could also cost the owner a lot of money. Wouldn't’t you like to know if the pup you just dished out $800 for is healthy?

I hesitantly left that afternoon, without Bella sadly. I could not afford $800.00 for her. Before I left however, I took notice to a couple more things that alarmed me.

The area in which these pups were enclosed was very dirty. The were basically playing in their own fecies. Some of them had doggy doodoo in their hair, Bella as well. The water dish was just about empty, but also filled with shavings. These dogs were clearly being neglected. And what worried me the most was that Bella was half the size of her sisters, she seemed to have no energy to play. I was truly concerned. And not having a health record concerned me even more.

Later that evening I could not get Bella out of my head. I called a friend and asked if she wanted to come and see Bella with me. I did not even tell my friend about the conditions of the store. Upon arrival, my friend noticed exactly what was going on, and turned to me and said “We have to do something”.

The store was closing, and we were quickly asked to leave. It was clear that the employees did not like us asking the questions we were about the dogs and their health. The next morning, after staying up all night researching what kind of care these dogs were to receive, we entered the store again. To our horror, the kennel was in the same condition. They had not received any fresh water still, and the fecies had not been cleaned. We spent the rest of the afternoon talking to Vets and the SPCA.

If you’re wondering, yes, we reported them to the SPCA. However there was nothing the SPCA could do immediately for any of these pups, including Bella. First they have to send an investigator in, and then it becomes a court issue. They said it could take up to six months. We didn’t have that kind of time. The store Wouldn't’t even hold Bella for us. They just wanted to make a quick sale, and who ever wanted to spend the money could gladly go home with a pup.

We put our brains together, managed to call some friends, and with a combined loan and our grocery money we had enough to purchase Bella. We brought her home immediately, gave her a bath, fed and gave her water. She drank and ate like it was her last meal. Then she slept for a good twenty hours straight.

I have called the pet store and requested they recover her health record.

In the process I asked them how exactly they would find the correct health record for a dog that didn’t have an ID tag. Their previous sale records were obviously incorrect due to that poor pup that was sold with the wrong record. I asked which vet the dogs had seen, and upon calling, the vet said that the store should be responsible for re-vaccinating and de-worming Bella. That without proper ID there is no way to tell which record belongs to her.

So, once again I contacted the store, only to have the manager tell me that he would not pay for the re-vaccination. And that I should bring the dog back because he wasn’t going to help me. Then he promptly hung up on me. Well, I am certainly not returning her to those conditions. I have since been contacted by the pet store, saying that they have miraculously found the missing health record, and have blamed the vet for incorrectly stating the sex of the pup. I can’t say I feel comfortable believing them.

Feeling a little more at ease now that I have Bella safe and sound, and knowing that the SPCA is investigating, I still feel there is more that we can do to help these pups.

Fist off I want to discourage anyone from purchasing pups or kittens from pet stores. If the public keeps a demand for these pups from the store, the store will keep selling.

I have decided to start a petition within our community I call “PAPS”.

Puppies. Against. Pet.Stores. I will be acquiring signatures from local breeders, the community, friends, and family to stop the selling of Puppies in pet shops here in the Valley, and the rest of Canada.

I am reaching out to all community members to please sign this petition, and give Bella and pups like her your support.

I am also trying to raise money for the expense of Bella. I am not asking for something for nothing. I will be giving back to the community, and all you pet lovers.

I will be contacting the SPCA again, this time offering my services as a volunteer.

If you would like to “sponsor” my hours at the shelter, all donations go to the cost of Bella. Anything exceeding the $800.00 will go directly to the shelter.

My friends and I will also be setting up in some dog parks around town offering Pup Portraits for a donation to the cost of Bella, and her vaccines.

If you are interested in signing the petition, sponsoring me, donating or meeting Bella please contact me.

Let’s stop pet stores from mistreating, and selling puppies! Support our local breeders. Together we can!

Jennifer Sled

meb999
April 12th, 2005, 08:56 AM
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-002.gif

Lucky Rescue
April 12th, 2005, 09:43 AM
Fist off I want to discourage anyone from purchasing pups or kittens from pet stores. If the public keeps a demand for these pups from the store, the store will keep selling.

That's right. Supply and demand - profit and loss. That's the only consideration.

Typically a breeder will sell pups to a store for around $300 a dog. Why such a high mark-up?

When you figure how many people are getting a piece of each little puppy, no wonder the price is high. The puppymills/backyard breeders want a profit, the pet store needs a chunk as well. And here, even the government gets it's pound of flesh in the form of GST and PST on each puppy.

As well, the pet store needs to compensate for any of the goods spoiling enroute - lots of puppies die while being inhumanely transported from mill to pet store. Can't make any money from dead puppies.

Since none of this is technically illegal (although many places are closing down particularly brutal mills) the only way to fight this IS through education.

You're not the only one who saw nothing wrong with selling puppies in petstores. Many people believe the staff when they tell them the puppies come from "private breeders" aka mills and disreputable backyard breeders.
NO remotely responsible breeder would sell puppies to a pet store. Ever.

No Puppy Mills Canada (http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/what_is_a_puppy_mill.htm)

Prin
April 17th, 2005, 02:19 AM
Typically a breeder will sell pups to a store for around $300 a dog. I don't know any good breeders who sell them that cheap!! You can't give an accurate health forecast of a mutt either. I don't know why you are even bothering. And you paid the money... I mean the story is a common one and a bad one, but you seem not-so-knowledgeable about any of it. I honestly don't know what makes you different from any other person who went into a pet store and bought a pup on a whim.I had been thinking about getting a dog for some time now. Doing a ton of research, looking at the SPCA, in the paper etc, but not finding the one that I knew should be my dog. That is until I met Bella. Real research would have led you away from pet stores, no? The newspaper is a terrible source as well. The SPCA is not the only rescue out there and it is certainly not the best one either.

And I don't think I will sponsor your purchase of a puppy mill dog either.

Sorry, if I am really negative, but this story makes me angry for the wrong reasons. I'd rather we consolidate our efforts into No Puppy Mills Canada than spread it out amongst people who are not really educated on the subject and just want to feel like heros.

Cactus Flower
April 17th, 2005, 10:47 AM
I am not going to name the particular pet store in which Bella was saved from

Why not name the store? Why protect them while trying to shut down their puppy-mill sales?

Just curious- who will you give your petition to?

I'm glad you called the SPCA, and I hope they get in there in time to help the current set of poop-covered, water-deprived pups from Bella's litter.

I, too, am a little surprised by your request. Can you try to see it from a reader's angle, please?: You bought a puppy-mill pup from a pet store. You are now telling people not to buy puppy-mill pups from a pet store. You want us to help pay for the cost of the puppy-mill pup that you bought at a pet store, under the heading of "sponsoring" your volunteer hours at the animal shelter (where you should have adopted from in the first place). This, you ask of the many people here who volunteer out of pure compassion and support for the cause (and they do it without hope or request of ever getting paid/"sponsored" for it ) .

I'm sorry, but your logic escapes me.

I hope that you are not too suprised by the responses you get from the good people here who foster, support their local shelters, volunteer, expose puppy mills, and do not buy puppy mill pups from pet stores.

LL1
April 17th, 2005, 10:48 AM
I'm not going to support breeders,I support rescues.

YOU bought a dog at a pet store and YOU supported puppymills.

I am not going to "sponsor" YOU by donating money to YOU so YOU can recover the money you spent to buy YOUR own dog from a pet store.

Am I missing something?

twodogsandacat
April 17th, 2005, 11:01 AM
I'm not going to support breeders,I support rescues.

YOU bought a dog at a pet store and YOU supported puppymills.

I am not going to "sponsor" YOU by donating money to YOU so YOU can recover the money you spent to buy YOUR own dog from a pet store.

Am I missing something?

Right on. :thumbs up

At first I found the posters a little holier than thou when it comes to breeding and neutering and spaying. Especially where newbies are concerned.

Well you know what? They need to be.

CyberKitten
April 17th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Re:" I'm not going to support breeders,I support rescues.

YOU bought a dog at a pet store and YOU supported puppymills.

I am not going to "sponsor" YOU by donating money to YOU so YOU can recover the money you spent to buy YOUR own dog from a pet store.

Am I missing something?"

I absolutely agree. I can't believe anyone would even make that request. I can understand if it a rescue or a shelter trying to save a pet's life or help say a cat with FIV who needs money for medical expenses. I'd be there in a heartbeat! (In fact, there is a blind Siamese kitty at Siamese Rescue with my name on it now - not for adoption - this kitty cannot travel by air - but financially I can help her!)

IF one does proper research, one learns about puppy mills = pet stores and simply does not buy there or even purchase other goods, period! There are only two places to adopt pets imho - a rescue operation and the SPCA is the last choice if there are no other rescues. (It has been my experience that where many rescues do not exist and the SPCA is the only one around, it tends to be better in terms of its kill rate, often attempting no kill but that is JUST my experience and in no way is that necesaarily valid everywhere!!!) - and a reputable breeder. A reputable breeder (in short) is one who loves the breed, raises and shows a particular breed - certainly no more than two breeds - and breeds only his or her show champions to advance geneticly the breed standards. That is what my research led me to discover.

I AM very sorry about Bella but she is one in a long tragic sorry line of stories of pets from pet stores. If I support her, I support the store and the puppy mill that bred her. My advice to you is to get the word out about the store, (newspapers love this kind of story tho you will get grief for having purchased from a pet store to begin with), sue the store, find out what puppy mill the dog came from and go after them. If I discovered I had a pet that became ill because of a puppy mill, you can rest assured I would not be satisfied until they are out of business! You owe that much to Bella!

Kismutt
April 17th, 2005, 11:12 PM
I hope you are not discouraged from posting again. Unfortunately, you have to understand when purchasing any dog from a Pet Store, you are supporting the mill industry. Which means, "Bella's" mother will be re-bred again and again and again.

If you thought "Bella's" living conditions were bad, her mother has it 10 times worse. Please take the time to read over some stories on my website.

Kimberly
www.canadanopuppymills.com

savannah
April 18th, 2005, 09:20 AM
So basically this woman wants us to pay for her dog?
She bought a dog she could not afford, and now she wants to take advantage the "animal lovers" and fool us into paying for her dog.
If you could not afford the dog, you should not have bought her. Period.
You got taken advantage of, and fell into feeling so sorry for the dog that you had to "save her" from the pet store. dont try to sucker us into your pet shop purchase.
By you purchasing Bella from the pet store, that just opens up another spot for another dog to come into the store, and continuing the cycle that is the puppy mill.
Oh, so you have to pay for vaccines. Big deal. It comes with the territory. You buy a dog, you have to pay vet bills. You don't hear me moaning and groaning over the $5,000+ i have paid for my 3.5 year old dog in vet bills alone.
If you can't afford her, please find her another GOOD home. Dont try to take advantage of people.
If you wanted to do a good dead, if anybody actually donates to BELLA, you should give all the money to an animal shelter, and you should not pocket it!
:mad:

goldenblaze
April 18th, 2005, 09:30 AM
This is sad, I know how you felt that you were saving this pup but, for every pup we save from a puppy mill or pet store there are thousands more waiting to be shipped for people to see in the store and feel sorry for. I do not go in pet stores that sell puppy, I stay away and you should do the same thing. Lets all try to stop the puppy mill from selling to the pet stores..that is the main problem. :sad:

Eleni
April 18th, 2005, 11:07 AM
My suggestion is this, instead of illiciting donations from a group of people whom beleive purchasing a dog from a petstore is helping puppy mills, why dont you find a local vet who either will take payments or give your pup treatment at a reduced cost.

also you should seek out local rescues, and see if they might be able to help you in exchange for volenteer hours from you. many rescues are shortstaffed and may appreciate the help.

I can sympathize with you, but surely there are better ways to get your pup treatment the seeking donations on the internet


Eleni

Joey.E.CockersMommy
April 25th, 2005, 09:32 PM
I know of two people now that have bought pups from the pet store. One is having alot of problems and the other is still a puppy. I also have read of a puppymill that was shut down in Kamloops selling just the same kind of puppies. So chances are the puppies may have came from this puppymill or another one that hasn't been found out yet!

happycats
April 26th, 2005, 06:30 AM
And I don't think I will sponsor your purchase of a puppy mill dog either.

Sorry, if I am really negative, but this story makes me angry for the wrong reasons. I'd rather we consolidate our efforts into No Puppy Mills Canada than spread it out amongst people who are not really educated on the subject and just want to feel like heros.

I totally agree :thumbs up

Vas
April 27th, 2005, 01:54 PM
Sorry for bella and for your sad experience. Pet shop buiseness is not going to end. But if you want your money back, go to the pet shop and make a threat that if they're not giving your money back you'll make your case public and they'll loose their clients. Name the pet store publicly, write your story to some news papers so people would know about it. And you can even have a stand next to the pet store with Bella, her photos and information to discurage all potential clients.

For those who live in Montreal there is a pet shop( and a dog training place) Le (edited by Trinitie) owned by a puppy mill owner himself at (edited by Trinitie). I was very curious to take a look so I entered as "a potential buyer" and asked to see a puppy. I asked for a shizu.The dog was so dirty and matted...I put him on the ground and he peed all over from the excitement and then he ran circles. I asked "where did the dog came from?". The owner replied proudly that he's the breeder himself and he has a farm. So I asked again:" How many dogs do you have there". He replied that he has about 150 dogs. So I looked him in the eyes and said: "it should be very hard to care for all of them for just one person, don't you think so?". He said nothing and I left.

If you want to help a dog, do not buy it from a pet shop!

Trinitie
April 27th, 2005, 02:11 PM
Vas -
Do not post names of stores on the forums. If you want to share information with other members, such as the name of a particular store that's "allegedly" selling milled puppies, do so only by PM.

Vas
April 27th, 2005, 02:25 PM
Vas -
Do not post names of stores on the forums. If you want to share information with other members, such as the name of a particular store that's "allegedly" selling milled puppies, do so only by PM.

Sorry I didn't know.. Thanks for correcting.

Trinitie
April 27th, 2005, 02:31 PM
It's ok. No harm no foul.

heidiho
April 27th, 2005, 02:35 PM
Interesting story here... :rolleyes:

Lucky Rescue
April 27th, 2005, 02:47 PM
Vas there are about 1500 puppymills in QC, just like the one you mentioned. They proudly advertise in the local papers all the time, listing about 30 breeds they are milling.

They (and a few backyard breeders) supply the petstores, so the name of the petstore doesn't matter since anyone buying petstore puppies is supporting and condoning puppymills.

Idolicious
April 28th, 2005, 08:58 AM
Pet Stores? The name should bring warning enough. If I am correct the CKC doesn't allow "breeders" to "sell" to pet stores. If you are researching a particular breed (many people have a fondness to certain breeds) go to the CKC and check out approved breeders. The breeders have to meet with strick standards for the breed, as well as the living conditions. A good breeder will remain part of your family for life - they want the little bundle of joy to have the best home possible.

Breeders? What makes a breeder is my question? Am I a chef because I made a bologne sandwich? Stop referring to "mass produced/reproducing" places as "breeders". If you are paying the $800 you should be provided with CKC registration (this ensures you are not supporting a puppymill) as well as health records of the pup as well as the parents. Many BREEDERS will give you detailed records going back 3-5 generations.

Saving the Puppy - just like a crack addict, that Mom of Belle is off in her 2x2 crate mass producing the next lot to be shipped on a transport truck.

As many have noted before me, there is always the SPCA or rescue groups. Even fostering to help out either of these groups is a good way to get your feet wet. Having a dog is a life long committment, and if you are "desperate" for funds before the dog is even in your home, you should take a look at what it actually costs to raise a dog in a healthy responsible environment. What does food cost for a year, basic vet bills, pet insurance, training, licencing, toys & treats (always a biggie for the momma who spoils), arrangements during travelling if not going with you???

As well, everytime you go into these "Pet Stores" and purchase other items, you are supporting that business to continue their puppy-mill practices. There are plenty of stores that sell the dog supplies you may need without caging these animals. I do admit, some in the YYZ area have areas of adoption that are sponsered by approved SPCA/Humane Society donated pups. They are sold for a nominal adoption fee, not the $800 chunk of change. These work hand & hand to find the animals homes.

As said, research!

levimh
April 28th, 2005, 09:18 PM
Vas there are about 1500 puppymills in QC, just like the one you mentioned. They proudly advertise in the local papers all the time, listing about 30 breeds they are milling.

This may sound stupid, but puppymills are illegal right? Then why are they advertising in the newspaper? Wouldn't someone figure them out and go after them? Or atleast check them out and see what they're up to? Just curious. :)

mona_b
April 28th, 2005, 09:52 PM
you should be provided with CKC registration (this ensures you are not supporting a puppymill)

Actually this is not true.This is not what the CKC registration papers mean.The registration papers ONLY mean that the dog is a purebred.Under the CKC Pedigree act,it is ilegal to sell a purebred without registration papers.


Registration Information


In the case of a CKC member breeder, he cannot, under any circumstances, sell puppies from any litter, unless they are being sold as purebred. Selling them without papers (which automatically makes them non-purebred), is a serious violation of the By-laws. [S.28 & S.7.2 CKC By-laws]

badger
April 28th, 2005, 10:19 PM
There's a new 'outlet' in my neighbourhood. One huge window full of cages, two puppies to a cage, all shapes and sizes, some may be purebred but most not, I couldn't look for long. I felt like putting a rock through the window. Now I give it a wide berth. On Papineau below Gilford.

Idolicious
April 28th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Thank you Mona_b. Perhaps you could enlighten us a bit more regarding the CKC and what is involved for a "Breeder" to register a litter and what are the regulations regarding the sale of these puppies?

savannah
April 29th, 2005, 07:53 AM
I have read an article before about how some millers purchase ckc papers from shady ckc members, and sell their dogs as ckc registered. So to me, buying a dog being registered by the ckc does not mean all that much.
Badger, where are you from? I have never seen such a discription in toronto (although i am sure they are here as well - but maybe not as easily seen).

Idolicious
April 29th, 2005, 08:37 AM
I guess there are "shady" people in any area of life. One might hope, hope, hope that the responsible ones would abide by the CKC code of Ethics and Cod of Practice for CKC Member Breeders. Those who take advantage of the system should be reported. If the people would stop purchasing their four legged friends from these places there would be as said by someone earlier, "supply and demand".

What are those sayings: "heads up" or "buyer beware".

After reading through all the responses on this thread I do believe that we are all on the same page in a round about way. The more vocal we can be is how we can stand strong together :ca: :grouphug: :usa:

badger
April 29th, 2005, 08:52 AM
I'm in Montreal, Quebec, the lawless eye of the puppy mill storm. And an endless supply of ignorant people to keep them in business.
Some pet stores have a couple of little darlings running around, try to resist.

Safyre
May 5th, 2005, 08:44 PM
I have a different view of this story. At no time did she say that she knew the dog was from a puppy mill. She stated she was concerned about the high mark up ...

I look at this as if, she probably thought she was RESCUING this dog from the HORRIBLE conditions that it was in. Isn't that what you rescuer's do every day? try to save animals from horrible situations?
She paid money to get this dog out of the situation ... that is the big difference, I see that. And it sucks, because the money went back into helping them treat more animals badly. But I'm pretty sure thats not how the OP saw it though. She problably just saw it as saving the pup ... not supporting a puppy mill.
Maybe I have more compassion, it happened to a friend of mine, because we didn't know where the dog came from, no idea where pet store animals came from. Most people don't know.

Kismutt
May 5th, 2005, 10:21 PM
Levimh - Puppymills are not illegal. Anyone can openly run a puppymill. What is illegal is the conditions the dogs are kept in. Inadequate shelter, food, water, ventilation, cage/kennel size all fall under the laws of animal cruetly.

So to answer your question there are a few large puppy mills in Ontario who provide proper food, water, shelter, ventilation, clean cages/kennels and there is not a darn thing we can do. As long as they are following the Canadian Kennel Code of practice, they are absoultely legal. Please see my website at www.canadanopuppymills.com and see the Canadian Kennel Code of Practices.

Secondly, many puppymills use CKC registration papers. Being CKC registered DOES NOT mean that puppy is bred by a reputable breeder. CKC does not investigate suspected mills. Believe me, you have to jump through hoops to get the CKC to condem a miller. Why? Because the CKC makes $$ on every puppy registered. It's all about the almighty dollar.

About half the puppies sold in the large chain pet stores in Toronto, Hamiliton, Burlington, and Mississauga, are shipped directly from Missouri puppy mills through Hunte Corp.

There are many registries that millers use, and here is the list:

AKC AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB
UKC UNITED KENNEL CLUB
CKC** CONTINENTAL KENNEL CLUB
**NOTE: Do not confuse this registry with the Canadian Kennel Club (also known as CKC). The Canadian Kennel Club is the equivalent of the AKC or UKC in America and is very respected in Canada.

APRI - AMERICA'S PET REGISTRY INC.
ACA - AMERICAN CANINE ASSOCIATION
UKCI - UNIVERSAL KENNEL CLUB INTERNATIONAL
NAPDR - NORTH AMERICAN PUREBRED DOG REGISTRY
DRA - DOG REGISTRY OF AMERICA
APR - AMERICAN PUREBRED REGISTRY
WWKC - WORLD WIDE KENNEL CLUB
WKC - WORLD KENNEL CLUB
FIC - FEDERATION OF INTERNATIONAL CANINES
ARU - ANIMAL REGISTRY UNLIMITED
UABR - UNITED ALL BREED REGISTRY
CRCS - CANINE REGISTRATION AND CERTIFICATION SERVICES
NPR - NATIONAL KENNEL CLUB

Kimberly
foster-in-ON

www.canadanopuppymills.com

mona_b
May 7th, 2005, 08:43 AM
Thank you Mona_b. Perhaps you could enlighten us a bit more regarding the CKC and what is involved for a "Breeder" to register a litter and what are the regulations regarding the sale of these puppies?

I'd be glad to..... :)

Both parents MUST be registered.When the pups are born,an Application for Registration of a litter born in Canada must be completed and submitted to the CKC's Registration Division.Now when you purchase a pup from the breeder,the breeder will automatically recieve applications from the CKC to individually register the pups.And this is at no extra charge to the new owner.And this is done by the breeder only.This is the breeders responsability.Not the new owner.

As for the selling of the pups,they must all be identified by either microchip or tattoo before leaving the breeder..Have written sales agreements,contracts.That includes s/n and non-breeding contracts.New owners must be screened.The pups are never to be sold "with or without" papers.Have a return/replacement policy....These are just a few I can think of from the top of my head...And at this point and time,my brain is fried.Being on nights and doing 12 hour shifts is no help......LOL

Hope this helped a bit.... :)

Also,when you are on a Non-Breeding contract,(this will be put on the registration papers)if you go against it,and you breed,CKC will not register the pups.Only the breeder can take you off it.And this pertains to "show" quality pups.The only way you are taken off the Non-Breeding contract is if you are showing and the dog has met the CKC Standards for that breed.

And for the S/N contract,some breeders will not give you the registration papers until it is done.My breeder stated to me(in the contract) that my boys had to be done at 6 months.If I didn't,I wold have been fined $5000 for each pup.But I knew her very well since I got my previous GSD from her and she knew I would not go against her contract..I know of a Bulldog breeder who will fine you $10.000.

Idolicious
May 9th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Well Stated! Now if some of the "brrreeeders" would follow the standards that Mona_b explained we wouldn't be in this tizzy - a second TY! Since everyone has their oppinion I pose a question:

What is the IDEAL situation for a puppy/dog to come from? What kind of regulations can we try to impose? Who is the "watch-dog" of these "breeders"? Instead of venting on this does anyone have any brilliant ideas to make this into a pawsitive?

Lucky Rescue
May 9th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Who is the "watch-dog" of these "breeders"?

There are no watchdogs on any breeders. The AKC/CKC will give registration papers to puppymills and disreputable backyard breeders. It's strictly "buyer beware". Anyone wanting to buy a purebred puppy must do his/her homework, and make sure the breeder is reputable.

Kismutt
May 9th, 2005, 07:05 PM
What is the IDEAL situation for a puppy/dog to come from? What kind of regulations can we try to impose? Who is the "watch-dog" of these "breeders"? Instead of venting on this does anyone have any brilliant ideas to make this into a pawsitive?

Idolicious - You can read the thread I posted a while back (Foster-in-ON) which will help people determine if they are purchasing from a reputable breeder:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=9736

Warmly,
Kimberly
Foster-in-ON
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

Idolicious
May 9th, 2005, 07:36 PM
There are no watchdogs on any breeders. The AKC/CKC will give registration papers to puppymills and disreputable backyard breeders. It's strictly "buyer beware". Anyone wanting to buy a purebred puppy must do his/her homework, and make sure the breeder is reputable.

And now to take my question further - what would it take to set up a "watchdog committee"? What level of Government? Do we involve some sort of licensing - something for breeders, sellers, owners. Just a simple 'NO' there aren't any watchdogs and having so much oppinion on the matter means let's put our heads together and find a way that works for the animals.

Excellent site Kismutt - everyone should read that when they get the four legged urge. I was fortunate that the past two breeders I dealt with did meet all the list & then some! I must say, that for our last boy we called 15 breeders, went to visit 8 (now that I've travelled southern Ontario) and decided on one. We were not looking for taking a pup home on any of these visits - even though they were offered. We found a perfect match with our breeder - but the key was doing our research!

CyberKitten
May 9th, 2005, 08:00 PM
Some jurisdictions - too few for my liking - have the necessary laws that govern breeding. Mind you, these like any other law - can be amd are broken. It really is still up to the buyer to do the research and be an informed person. There are many unscruplulous backyard breeders out there and it is actually pretty easy to determine who they are. Even among breeders who are credible, not all are "perfect" sp one must exercise due diulligence as one would do in any situation. Adopting a pet is a significant milestone in one's life. It is not tobe done on a whim - tho if a stray and needy cat does manahe to find you, welll... that is a different story, lol

Kismutt
May 9th, 2005, 08:19 PM
I was fortunate that the past two breeders I dealt with did meet all the list & then some! I must say, that for our last boy we called 15 breeders, went to visit 8 (now that I've travelled southern Ontario) and decided on one. We were not looking for taking a pup home on any of these visits - even though they were offered. We found a perfect match with our breeder - but the key was doing our research!

Good Girl :thumbs up If only more people would.

Kismutt
May 10th, 2005, 11:57 AM
The SPCA is not the only rescue out there and it is certainly not the best one either.

This is an interesting statement. Could you eleborate? To my knowledge there isn't a rescue that has the power to seize a dog/cat/horse etc. from an unfit enviornment. As I do both SPCA work, and run my own rescue, I see both sides of the fence. So, I am interested to know why you down the OSPCA in this statement. I bust my butt everyday to make sure animals are not suffering at the hands of abusive, neglectful owners. Let me tell you, from my position, rescue is the easy part of the job. It is very easy to judge when you have not walked a mile in someone elses shoes.

The OSPCA certainly has it's faults, however, I see more problems arise through the rescue's than within the OSPCA. Secondly, the public tend to lump all Humane Society's together. There are OSPCA branches and then their are affiliates. The affiliates are NOT funded by the OSPCA. That makes a HUGE difference. For example: London HS is an affliate. They get 0 funding from the OSPCA. ALL their funding is through private donations and fundraising. In my opinion, and this is my opinion only, they have many problems. They do not have the funding, resourses of an OSPCA branch. Basically, they are like a big rescue, with the exception that they have hired 1 investigations officer, who can and does do investigations and seizures. They have only had their investigations officer for a short time.....before that they relied on the OSPCA to do any and all seizures and cruelty investigations.

This is not intended to start a heated battle, it is just my opinion of seeing things from both sides. So when you say the SPCA is not worthy of adopting from, are you referring specially to the OSPCA or an affiliate, or both?

www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

Toonces
May 10th, 2005, 03:09 PM
She did not say they were not worthy of adopting from, please don't put words in her mouth. I don't know what she meant, but I would prefer to adopt a dog that has lived in a foster home with a real family for several weeks before adoption to be properly assessed, rather than a dog in a cage in a shelter. I also work in rescue and the public has no idea how many dogs the SPCAs euthanize, the OSPCA and affiliates I mean. Also they send the dogs they plan on euthanizing to rescues, and rescues can find them homes. Why can't they? I admire rescues for that. I know of 2 dogs our rescue wanted to help and were killed by the OSPCA. I also know our rescue has taken many, many dogs from Humane Societies and SPCAs that were going to be euthanized, and some that tragically were euthanized as we ran out of time finding them foster homes. The public should know this.

Lucky Rescue
May 10th, 2005, 05:05 PM
The SPCA is not the only rescue out there and it is certainly not the best one either

I'm pretty sure Prin is referring to the Montreal SPCA, and I agree with her totally.

Kismutt
May 10th, 2005, 08:56 PM
I don't know what she meant, but I would prefer to adopt a dog that has lived in a foster home with a real family for several weeks before adoption to be properly assessed, rather than a dog in a cage in a shelter.

Really? I have been with the OSPCA for 17 years. All the dogs that need to be in a home for socialization, recovery from surgery, training ect. are fostered at my home, and many other approved foster homes. Kismutt has been around forever, it wasn't until we officially applied and received our non charitable status that we put ourselves up on Petfinder. Kismutt does both...fostering "OSPCA dogs" and "rescue dogs".

When we seize dogs from mills, abusive homes etc., they are not ready to be placed for adoption right away, therefore, they are fostered in homes. Are you saying my home isn't a real home?? LOL

The OSPCA certainly enuthanizes dogs. Dogs that do not pass temperment testing, and the very ill. I can tell you that dogs that pass their temperment tests, are all adopted. Now, take "Daisy" for example. If she sits for weeks and starts to show signs of "Kennel stress", there is the chance she could be enuth. If I have room, I will pull her and foster her in my home or an approved home at the first sign of stress. We are always looking for more foster homes. Everything is paid for....meds. surgeries, bandages, vaccinations, and even food if you wish. All you provide is the home, love and your time.

Affiliates may enuth. dogs if they run out of room, example that I gave you is the London HS. They are called the London Humane Society however they are an affiliate, and do not receive ANY funding from the OSPCA. I think this is were some of the confusion lies. There are many affiliates out there.

When the OSPCA runs out of room, an alert goes out to the foster homes, to take in dogs. This happened just 3 weeks ago. Our amazing foster Mom's/Dad's were able to scramble and we were able to send over 38 dogs from different branches into foster homes.

Have a look at the dogs on Kismutt. All but "Coco" are OSPCA dogs, and were fostered in my home. "Tucker" was in a high kill pound, and was going to be PTS. I took him, fostered him in my home, and the OSPCA paid for his surgery on his bone spurs, neuter, vaccs. anti-biotics, micro-chipping etc. etc. and he is now happily in his new home.

Potential adoptor's come to MY home to meet the dogs, once they have been approved through the OSPCA application. Because they are fostered, the foster parent does the home visit, and decides which home is most appropriate for the dog.

Also they send the dogs they plan on euthanizing to rescues, and rescues can find them homes. Why can't they?

The OSPCA does not contact rescues when they plan on enuth. a dog. If it is decided a dog is to be PTS the dog is PTS. There is no phone call to a rescue, and for good reason.

Animal Control's and Animal Service's will call rescue's when a dog is going to be enuth. but NOT the OSPCA. If a dog is adoptable why do they need a rescue to adopt the dog? They don't. If the dog needs to be placed in foster care before being placed for adoption, that is exactly what happens.


Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

Safyre
May 10th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Kismutt - Most of the posters on this website, or a lot of them, are from Quebec. So SPCA refers to the Quebec SPCA , not OSPCA (ontario SPCA)
Dunno if that changes you're argument, but I jsut thought calrification was needed.
Quebec SPCA seems tobe VERY Differnet from what these posters (Prin, LuckyRescue and others) are saying ...

LL1
May 10th, 2005, 09:52 PM
Are you trying to say all SPCA dogs are in foster homes not cages?
Really? I have been with the OSPCA for 17 years. All the dogs that need to be in a home for socialization, recovery from surgery, training ect. are fostered at my home, and many other approved foster homes. Are you saying my home isn't a real home?? LOL


Maybe you should clarify the difference between the OSPCA Branches and affiliates.My rescue has also taken in several dogs from various Ontario SPCAs (as well as from Humane Societies and I am not grouping them together) as have most rescues that I know of.These are not for reasons of space,they ARE for temperament or health or age issues that the SPCA has deemed the dogs "unadoptable".Rescues then rescue them from the SPCA.Happens all the time.


The OSPCA certainly enuthanizes dogs. Dogs that do not pass temperment testing, and the very ill. I can tell you that dogs that pass their temperment tests, are all adopted. Affiliates may enuth. dogs if they run out of room, example that I gave you is the London HS. I think this is were some of the confusion lies. There are many affiliates out there.The OSPCA does not contact rescues when they plan on enuth. a dog. If it is decided a dog is to be PTS the dog is PTS. There is no phone call to a rescue, and for good reason.Animal Control's and Animal Service's will call rescue's when a dog is going to be enuth. but NOT the OSPCA. If a dog is adoptable why do they need a rescue to adopt the dog? They don't.

LL1
May 10th, 2005, 09:53 PM
It's not different in Ontario.
So SPCA refers to the Quebec SPCA , not OSPCA (ontario SPCA)
Dunno if that changes you're argument, but I jsut thought calrification was needed.
Quebec SPCA seems tobe VERY Differnet from what these posters (Prin, LuckyRescue and others) are saying ...

Kismutt
May 10th, 2005, 10:06 PM
Kismutt - Most of the posters on this website, or a lot of them, are from Quebec. So SPCA refers to the Quebec SPCA , not OSPCA (ontario SPCA)
Dunno if that changes you're argument, but I jsut thought calrification was needed.
Quebec SPCA seems tobe VERY Differnet from what these posters (Prin, LuckyRescue and others) are saying ...

Toonces is from Belleville. This is why I was replying to her regarding OSPCA.

I do not know how committed the SPCA's in Quebec are in regards to fostering their needy dogs into homes. Maybe you could enlighten me?

Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

Kismutt
May 10th, 2005, 10:14 PM
Are you trying to say all SPCA dogs are in foster homes not cages?.

I am not sure where you read that ALL OSPCA dogs are in foster homes. Dogs that are recovering from surgery, dogs that need socialization, puppymill dogs, and dogs who require training are placed in foster homes. If the dog is healthy and ready for adoption, it remains at the shelter.


Maybe you should clarify the difference between the OSPCA Branches and affiliates.

I explained this in an above post.

LL1
May 10th, 2005, 10:18 PM
So most are in cages,that's what I thought.If I were adopting I would prefer a dog that has been in a foster home too.Which SPCAs are Branches and which are affiliates?Maybe if you say which are OSPCA that would help,as I know dogs are rescued from SPCAs all the time.I know the difference,I just do not know which ones are which.And clarify if you are saying ONLY affiliates of the SPCA,some that are in fact called X SPCA,send dogs with temperament issues to rescue.And clarify that branches of the SPCA don't.I'm not clear on that.Some shelters I am told decide to be affiliates rather than be under the thumb of the OSPCA.The OSPCA also shut down the Peel OSPCA dog rescue program which was sad.

Safyre
May 10th, 2005, 10:30 PM
LL1 - From what I have heard from Qeubec SPCA, they do not even vet check, spay thier animals do anything of the kind. OSPCA DOES, at least they do in MY city! :) Therefore, there is differences between Quebec and Ontario for the SPCA. I do not know of any other big differneces, have never been to quebec to deal with the SPCA there.

LL1
May 10th, 2005, 10:33 PM
That's awful!At least they do that here!
LL1 - From what I have heard from Qeubec SPCA, they do not even vet check, spay thier animals do anything of the kind. OSPCA DOES, at least they do in MY city! :)

Cactus Flower
May 10th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Maybe I don't understand your organizations well, so forgive me if this sounds ignorant. Here in New Mexico, we have the animal shelter (City-run, and most are kill shelters, some non-kill), rescue organizations that are breed specific, and the foster homes that foster for the rescue organizations. That's it.

So let's say the animal shelter had a Dane, and I was looking for one.

First of all, if they have a Dane, that means that the rescue's foster homes are full, otherwise they'd have placed the dog with Great Dane Rescue.

If I had to choose between adopting this Dane from the animal shelter, and going to Great Dane Rescue for one, I would without a doubt adopt the animal shelter Dane.

Why?

Because I'd know that it would only have a short stay at the animal shelter before being killed. I'd feel that the Danes in the Great Dane Rescue foster homes are not facing a kill date, so I'd have to adopt the Dane from the shelter, to "save" that life!

I know myself well enough to predict that this is what I would do.

I have all the respect in the world for people who foster, and who have rescues. I don't know how you folks do it, but I'm glad you do.

If I couldn't find a Dane in the shelters (they are rare here indeed), I would go through Great Dane Rescue without hesitation to adopt. In fact, I had just completed the long application process, background check, and been approved by GD Rescue when I was lucky enough to get Raj (long story- she and another Dane were taken from a terribly abusive situation and placed with me).

Kismutt
May 10th, 2005, 11:14 PM
Cactus Flower: God Bless you! And, thank you.

LL1:

Branches in Ontario:
Barrie
www.ospca.org/barrie

Brant County
www.brantfordspca.com

Bruce-Grey
Dryden & District

Huronia & District
http://www.huronspca.ca

Kapuskasing & District
ospcanorth@hotmail.com

Kenora & District HS
www.mykenora.com/ospca

Kent County
www.ciaccess.com/~ospca/index.html

Leeds & Grenville
www.recorder.ca/spca/

Lennox & Addington
www.geocities.com/napaneeanimalshelter/

Marion Vernon Memorial Animal Clinic
ospcavet@bconnex.net

Midland & District
www.ospca.org/midland

Midland Wildlife Centre
wildlife.midland@ospca.org

Muskoka
www.ospca.org/muskoka


Orangeville & District
www.orangevillespca.ca

Orillia
www.ospca.org/orillia

Oxford County Branch
www.oxfordspca.on.ca

Parry Sound
www.ospca.org/parrysd

Peel
www.ospcapeel.on.ca

Petawawa/Renfrew
http://www.webhart.net/ospca


Prescott-Russell

Scarborough / North York Branches
www.geocities.com/ospcagta

S.D. & G.
www.ospcacornwall.ca

Sudbury & District
www.come.to/sudbury-ospca

Temiskaming Branch
York Region
www.yorkregionospca.com

Affiliates in Ontario:

Alliston & District HS
www.allistonhumane.com

Arnprior & District HS

Cambridge & District HS
spca.cambridgeweb.net/


Etobicoke & District HS
http://www.etobicokehumanesociety.com

Fort Erie SPCA
http://www.forteriespca.ca


Gananoque & District HS
www.kingston.org/gananoquehs/

Guelph HS
www.guelph-humane.on.ca

Hamilton SPCA
www.hamiltonspca.com

Humane Society of Durham Region
www.humanedurham.com


Kingston HS
www.ikweb.com/humane

Kitchener-Waterloo and North Waterloo HS
www.kwhumane.com

Lanark Animal Welfare Soc.
www.falls.igs.net/~animals

Lincoln County HS
http://www.lchs.ca


London HS
http://www.londonhumanesociety.ca/services.htm

Niagara Falls HS
www.niagarafallshumanesociety.com

North Bay & District HS
www.northbayhumanesociety.ca

Northumberland HS
www.northumberlandhumanesociety.com

Oakville HS
www.oakvillehumane.ca

Ottawa-Carleton HS
http://www.ottawahumane.ca

Peterborough HS
www.peterboroughathome.com

Quinte HS
www.quintehumanesociety.com

Sarnia & District SPCA
www.sarnia.com/groups/spca

Sault Ste. Marie HS

Simcoe & District HS
www.s-dhs.ca
Thunderbay & District HS
http://www.tbayhumane.ca

Timmins & District HS
www.timminshumanesociety.ca

Toronto HS
www.torontohumanesociety.com

Upper Credit HS
www.uppercredit.com


Victoria County HS
www.geocities.com/vchshome/

Welland & District HS
www.wellandhumanesociety.com

Windsor/Essex County HS
www.windsorhumane.org

LL1
May 10th, 2005, 11:30 PM
Thanks for clarifying!I have rescued dogs from Branches and affiliates that were going to be euthed for temperament issues,as have many rescues that I know of.Which were you trying to say did NOT send dogs to rescue that they were going to euthanize for temperament issues????

Prin
May 10th, 2005, 11:34 PM
By the way, I'm probably the one who said that the SPCA in Montreal doesn't check to see if the doggies are spayed or neutered. They certainly didn't check on Boo... They didn't even remember me one bit when I went back 3 months later to say thanks...

Kismutt
May 10th, 2005, 11:52 PM
Thanks for clarifying!I have rescued dogs from Branches and affiliates that were going to be euthed for temperament issues

LL1 - Very interesting. What is your rescue's name? Are you registered? Are you the registered owner? Do you work/volunteer for a branch of the OSPCA? If you were given these dogs you will have a copy of their case numbers on file. Email me each case number, the dogs name, the branch that you pulled from, the name of the person that authorised it's release to you, and the assesment (temperment wise), for each dog.

Good night all!

Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

LL1
May 11th, 2005, 12:04 AM
I prefer to remain anonymous so I won't take you up on that offer.I do not work or volunteer for any Branch or affiliate of the SPCA.I was only given written info on one dogs temperament issue,the rest were strictly verbal conversations.All were temperament issues.Sady there were several dogs I could not take in when asked as well.Maybe you should join a rescue list and you'd learn more about this.Just because your Branch does not release to rescue,doesn't mean others don't.I think they all should,and the reason why they don't is strictly politics and refusal to admit rescues can do a better job.So they kill them instead.Not very humane.

Kismutt
May 11th, 2005, 12:08 AM
I prefer to remain anonymous

I thought so. Have a good night LL1, sleep tight :)

Prin
May 11th, 2005, 12:18 AM
The SPCA here is rumored to kill any dog who comes in with kennel cough. They all leave with it, so I don't get it.

poodletalk
May 11th, 2005, 07:50 AM
They put dogs and cats down for much less than that!

Lucky Rescue
May 11th, 2005, 10:50 AM
They put dogs and cats down for much less than that!

Yep. They sure do. This is Gedeon, a purebred 2 year old Himalayan who was killed because of a protruding canine tooth. This somehow made him "unadoptable." :(
http://www.petfinder.org/fotos/QC12/QC12.2646332-1-x.jpg

poodletalk
May 11th, 2005, 11:03 AM
I don't understand HOW any veternairn can work there! Its them who are euthanising the animals, not......(you can guess what I was going to say)
I yelled at the staff and....last year because of euthanising a dog for a stupid reason. My first and last time walking in there.

I understand if you need to edit my post.

Prin
May 11th, 2005, 11:34 AM
I figured that one out, poodletalk. I didn't get into vet school this year, but I know so many people who have gotten in who have never even had a pet. Never. A girl I know had a bird. And she got into vet school. No interest for animals whatsoever, but as long as you have good marks, you're in. So when these non-animal lovers graduate, where do you think they work? SPCA, Labs, Iams....

poodletalk
May 11th, 2005, 12:11 PM
I agree with you prim. I went to the cat show at the Bonadventure around Christmas time.The lady who organized the show, its a VET at a pharmaceutical company!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Theres some vets who just do it for the money! They make me sick! I am so lucky to have a caring vet, who does it for the animals and not for money!

Blaze01
May 11th, 2005, 01:52 PM
I have a different view of this story. At no time did she say that she knew the dog was from a puppy mill. She stated she was concerned about the high mark up ...

I look at this as if, she probably thought she was RESCUING this dog from the HORRIBLE conditions that it was in. Isn't that what you rescuer's do every day? try to save animals from horrible situations?
She paid money to get this dog out of the situation ... that is the big difference, I see that. And it sucks, because the money went back into helping them treat more animals badly. But I'm pretty sure thats not how the OP saw it though. She problably just saw it as saving the pup ... not supporting a puppy mill.
Maybe I have more compassion, it happened to a friend of mine, because we didn't know where the dog came from, no idea where pet store animals came from. Most people don't know.


I agree with what is above...she sounds to me like she had the best of intentions...i do beleive it was wrong of her to ask for money but maybe she is stuck in a hard spot...I got Blaze from a newspaper ad in the paper...his mother is not fixed and might never be...the old lady that owned his mother was going to put him down (she will pay to kill but not to fix her cat) that next morning but i called and went to go see him and i fell in love with him that i just had to have him...I didnt know at that time it was wrong to get a cat from an ad i didnt pay anything for him but i think i rescued him he would of been put down if i wouldnt not have gotten him that day. Should i have went in the shelters and look...yes but i was ignorant to this fact...not everybody knows about the dangers of puppymills or backyard breeding...i had no idea until i started researching cats and came upon this forum...i personally think some comments were a little harsh...i

Toonces
May 11th, 2005, 03:39 PM
I am a foster Mom for GSRT and we rescued dogs from some of the OSPCA branches. I'm not saying which ones, because I don't want to risk any of the branches being told they can't get rescue help. That would hurt the dogs, and I won't do it. Money can't be the problem, Hamilton SPCA is a very fancy shelter and must have lots of dough but they send to rescues all the time, and we're all real happy they do.

We said no to one dog from one Branch for severely aggressive bahevarious and there's been a couple we just did not have spots for. We don't have anything saying case number, we have some numbers like the log in number on the top right of the Ontario OSPCA Animal Surrender Form is that what you wanted? I'm not putting that up. We have slips and they marked box F for miscalaneous and they put down transfer to our rescue.

This dog's owners brought him to the SPCA branch, and the SPCA had to call them to come back in and muzzle him so they could get near him because he was acting real aggressive, and they asked GSRT to take him.

http://www.gsrt.net/images/RexMidland.jpg


This dog was aggressive with men in the SPCA branch and they asked GSRT to take him. Another rescue gave us lots of help with him.

http://www.gsrt.net/images/Striker2a.jpg

This skinny female was completely wild and untrained, so the SPCA branch asked GSRT for help.

http://www.gsrt.net/images/Tara_1.jpg

This male was seized in cruelty, and barked and lunged and carried on when anyone walked by, so the SPCA branch called GSRT to take him. The head of my rescue took him and the skinny one on the same day and said it was one heck of a drive!

http://www.gsrt.net/images/Brady5a.jpg


This dog was nice, the SPCA would have taken him but had no room and asked for help.

http://www.gsrt.net/images/Cody1a.jpg

This boy was old, and the SPCA had no room and it was a desperate scene. He was a very good boy.

http://www.gsrt.net/images/Timber004az.jpg

Kismutt
May 11th, 2005, 07:21 PM
I am a foster Mom for GSRT and we rescued dogs from some of the OSPCA branches. I'm not saying which ones, because I don't want to risk any of the branches being told they can't get rescue help. That would hurt the dogs, and I won't do it. Money can't be the problem, Hamilton SPCA is a very fancy shelter and must have lots of dough but they send to rescues all the time, and we're all real happy they do.

We said no to one dog from one Branch for severely aggressive bahevarious and there's been a couple we just did not have spots for. We don't have anything saying case number, we have some numbers like the log in number on the top right of the Ontario OSPCA Animal Surrender Form is that what you wanted? I'm not putting that up. We have slips and they marked box F for miscalaneous and they put down transfer to our rescue.

This dog's owners brought him to the SPCA branch, and the SPCA had to call them to come back in and muzzle him so they could get near him because he was acting real aggressive, and they asked GSRT to take him.

Awsome! Keep up the good work :thumbs up

Toonces
May 15th, 2005, 12:16 PM
Thanks! Just wanted to let you know that what you wrote was wrong.

Safyre
May 15th, 2005, 04:14 PM
Prin - I recall you stating that they did not check up to see if Boo was s/n or not. Thats not what i was quoting, but a nice example of possible difference between OSPCA and Quebec SPCA. OSPCA will s/n before adopting if there is a vet available to do it early. If not, they DO check up, as I have found out recently. :) There has been other meembers who have given various info about Quebec SPCA as well

Kismutt
May 15th, 2005, 05:08 PM
I am a foster Mom for GSRT and we rescued dogs from some of the OSPCA branches. I'm not saying which ones, because I don't want to risk any of the branches being told they can't get rescue help. That would hurt the dogs, and I won't do it. Money can't be the problem, Hamilton SPCA is a very fancy shelter and must have lots of dough but they send to rescues all the time, and we're all real happy they do.

We said no to one dog from one Branch for severely aggressive bahevarious and there's been a couple we just did not have spots for. We don't have anything saying case number, we have some numbers like the log in number on the top right of the Ontario OSPCA Animal Surrender Form is that what you wanted? I'm not putting that up. We have slips and they marked box F for miscalaneous and they put down transfer to our rescue.

This dog's owners brought him to the SPCA branch, and the SPCA had to call them to come back in and muzzle him so they could get near him because he was acting real aggressiveThis dog was aggressive with men in the SPCA branch Another rescue gave us lots of help with him.

Toonces:
I will privately email those interested in reading the reply.

Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

LL1
May 15th, 2005, 05:28 PM
Wow.Exactly why I don't disclose my rescue name.You want more dogs euthanized and less being rescued because you can't stand being wrong.Hope you're proud of yourself.

Kismutt
May 15th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Wow.Exactly why I don't disclose my rescue name.You want more dogs euthanized and less being rescued because you can't stand being wrong.Hope you're proud of yourself.

The OSPCA does not release aggressive dogs to rescues GSRT or any other rescue. This is being responsible. And yes, I am proud that the OSPCA does not and will not release aggressive dogs to rescues and into the general public.

Prin
May 15th, 2005, 11:27 PM
Problem is aggressive is a relative term. Jemma would have been put down by shelter standards. We were told never to bring her out to dog parks and in public places because she was viscious. She is the star of the park now. She just needed a tougher owner. I don't back down from a challenge.

How will you know that the aggressive dogs to you are not trainable by the right person? How do you trust when people tell you that their dog is aggressive? I know so many people whose dog "turned" but they didn't know squat about training. Any experienced person can turn that aggressive dog into a sweetheart. How do you know if the dog's behavior after being abandoned by who knows what kind of person is not a result of trauma and can't be fixed? Every dog is different and every dog deserves a chance.

Aggressive is an opinion. What is aggressive to you may not be aggressive to me. The trouble is, it's an opinion that will cost a dog its life.

Toonces
May 16th, 2005, 02:48 AM
As Prin said there are different types of aggression, some are able to be worked out and others are not, GSRT would never take a dog that was so far gone that it would do harm to someone, most of the aggression issues have to do with other dogs, food or toys, these things are workable and are worked out in foster care with the help of trainers and potential adopters are made aware of this and must take the dog to school themselves.

I don't now if you have ever seen a gsd in a cage at the shelter but they do not do well in cages, they can snarl, growl and jump up and be quite intimidating and look quite scarey but once out of the cage are fine, the dogs we take are tested at the shelter first with the foster parents dogs first to make sure they are good with other dogs.

Anyway do what you want if it makes you feel good that some dogs because of how they act in a cage will be put down and not released to rescue because of your opinions.

Lise
May 16th, 2005, 06:56 AM
This is just my opinion,but with the current anti dog climate,many shelters and rescues are having to be more careful than ever with agressive dogs being adopted.Can you imagine the negative publicity if the OSPCA knowingly adopted out an agressive dog and that dog attacked someone.The general public does not care why that dog is agressive,resource guarding,fear biting etc are meaningless to many people.As far as judging what is aggressive I agree it must be done by a qualified animal behaviorist and yes allowances should be made because of the high stress situation of a shelter,but in the end agressive dogs regardless of why they are agressive should not be adopted out.The risks are too great.

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 09:00 AM
Thank you Lise.

BMDLuver
May 16th, 2005, 09:26 AM
Toonces: I have sent a letter to the head office of the OSPCA, along with a copy of this entire thread.
If in fact there is a Branch of the OSPCA that has released an aggresive dog, it will be revealed, and the circumstances of the release of each dog.

I will privately email those interested in reading the reply.

Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com
I'm a little confused about this. Many shelters do not have the staff to work with certain dogs. If a shelter contacts a rescue group to help with a dog they normally have seen some hope for this dog but do not have the necessary resources to work one on one with the dog. Does that mean because 3 out of 5 shelter workers are afraid to go near this dog that the two who aren't should not try to help this dog? If that were the case, dogs would be dying in shelters left right and center because someone does not understand that particuliar breed and takes the dogs actions as dangerous. We receive emails from shelters on a regular bases and I have transported several dogs from shelters who were deemed to be unadoptable due to lack of time to work with the dog to rehab homes. Does that mean that dog did not deserve a second chance? People lie when dumping dogs, should we all believe every word/excuse they supply? What purpose does contacting OSPCA's and asking about releases to rescues? I know of multiple rescues who take dogs from OSPCA's on a regular bases, should this not happen? I think the judgement should be left to the shelter and the rescue who is taking the dog. Most are not going to risk anyone by taking a dog that has no hope of being adopted or releasing it to a rescue. That's why rescue and OSPCA work together... why in Dog's name would you want to put a stop to that? Is it a personal vendetta because it's really sounding that way. :sad:

Duchess
May 16th, 2005, 10:05 AM
If in fact there is a Branch of the OSPCA that has released an aggresive dog, it will be revealed, and the circumstances of the release of each dog.

I will privately email those interested in reading the reply.

Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

I'm trying to understand the motivation behind your actions, but it's beyond me. Why are you interested in the history and reasons behind the release of certain dogs to certain rescues? Would you prefer that dogs with supposed issues of aggression not be adopted through a breed-specific rescue like GSRT?
I'm sure that all shelter employees are not familiar with the nuances of each and every breed. That's why rescues are so important. For example, GSRT knows that the image presented by a snarling, lunging GSD locked inside a concrete cubicle is often not indicative of the dog's true temperament. But to the average pet owner - and in many cases, shelter employees and volunteers - this dog appears aggressive and unadoptable.
Unless you're qualified in assessing canine behaviour and are willing to test the dog outside of its cage in the shelter, how can you truly deem it aggressive? Why wouldn't you be willing to give it a chance in an appropriate setting?
Yes, I agree that Ontario is becoming increasingly anti-dog. It's very sad. But that's why it's more important than ever that shelters either learn how to accurately assess a dog or be willing to bring in reputable rescue people who can judge that dog on its own merits.
Tattling to the head of the OSPCA about supposed aggressive dogs released to rescue isn't going to help the dogs. Kismutt - I see that you're involved in rescue yourself. Why would you want to put dogs in jeopardy simply because they don't all wag their tails and lick people's hands through the wire cages?

BMDLuver
May 16th, 2005, 10:10 AM
Excellent post!
I'm trying to understand the motivation behind your actions, but it's beyond me. Why are you interested in the history and reasons behind the release of certain dogs to certain rescues? Would you prefer that dogs with supposed issues of aggression not be adopted through a breed-specific rescue like GSRT?
I'm sure that all shelter employees are not familiar with the nuances of each and every breed. That's why rescues are so important. For example, GSRT knows that the image presented by a snarling, lunging GSD locked inside a concrete cubicle is often not indicative of the dog's true temperament. But to the average pet owner - and in many cases, shelter employees and volunteers - this dog appears aggressive and unadoptable.
Unless you're qualified in assessing canine behaviour and are willing to test the dog outside of its cage in the shelter, how can you truly deem it aggressive? Why wouldn't you be willing to give it a chance in an appropriate setting?
Yes, I agree that Ontario is becoming increasingly anti-dog. It's very sad. But that's why it's more important than ever that shelters either learn how to accurately assess a dog or be willing to bring in reputable rescue people who can judge that dog on its own merits.
Tattling to the head of the OSPCA about supposed aggressive dogs released to rescue isn't going to help the dogs. Kismutt - I see that you're involved in rescue yourself. Why would you want to put dogs in jeopardy simply because they don't all wag their tails and lick people's hands through the wire cages?

Lucky Rescue
May 16th, 2005, 10:34 AM
Shelter workers not only are NOT all behaviorists and trainers (who would not have time to work with individual animals even if they were) but some do not even like animals or know much about them. To some people it's just a job like any other.

Some dogs show horribly in a shelter atmosphere and if someone just wants to try and see what that dog is like outside the shelter and maybe give it a chance, I say "GREAT!"

I personally know of one dog who put up a terrible display of agression while in a shelter cage, but once outside the shelter, was a loving and sweet wigglebutt. The difference was astonishing and immediate, and I'm glad someone gave that dog a second chance. Even a dog with a great temperament can be frightened and stressed by the scary shelter environment.

NO rescue is going to knowingly adopt out an aggressive dog. They would be setting themselves up for serious legal repercussions by doing so.

The accusation or implication that someone is doing so is very damaging and I have deleted some portions of the above posts by Kismutt.

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 10:59 AM
NO rescue is going to knowingly adopt out an aggressive dog. They would be setting themselves up for serious legal repercussions by doing so.

The accusation or implication that someone is doing so is very damaging and I have deleted some portions of the above posts by Kismutt.

The entire thread was copied. Investigation is fully underway. No one implied a rescue was "adopting out" aggressive dogs.

Toonces, is stating that brances of the OSPCA is releasing aggressive dogs to her German Shepherd Rescue. And this is completely false.

Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

Duchess
May 16th, 2005, 11:11 AM
The entire thread was copied. Investigation is fully underway. No one implied a rescue was "adopting out" aggressive dogs.

Toonces, is stating that brances of the OSPCA is releasing aggressive dogs to her German Shepherd Rescue. And this is completely false.

Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

Investigation into what? This implies that all forms of aggression are the same. What is your definition of aggression?
It is completely appropriate for dogs with certain types of "aggressions" to be released to a rescue that can evaluate and work with these behaviours. I still don't understand what you are hoping to accomplish by putting the OSPCA and certain rescues on the spot.
One could assume from your posts that only happy tail-waggers deserve a second chance.
Just out of curiosity, under what circumstances will the OSPCA release to rescue? How do they determine that a dog should be slated for euthanasia? You mentioned in an earlier post that the OSPCA never releases dogs to rescue that they plan to euthanize? I find it hard to believe that all dogs put to sleep by the OSPCA are raging, aggressive maniacs. What about the old and the sick? Are they ever released to rescue?

Lucky Rescue
May 16th, 2005, 11:29 AM
I'd like to know what kind of "aggression" you mean as well.

Do you mean unprovoked human aggression? Dogs who will attack anyone who comes near them? I doubt any rescue would take on a dog like that.

Do you mean food aggression? Fear aggression? Both of these are workable by someone knowledgeable and could be totally eliminated. Maybe not, but it's not worth it to try?

If a reputable rescue wants to take a dog who has fear aggression and work with it, isn't that their business?

Prin
May 16th, 2005, 12:13 PM
I would think that a german shepherd rescue would know about GSD behavior better than the SPCA. Why is it so bad if someone else gets a shot? Even if they don't disclose that the dog is aggressive, is it that hard to figure out?

And what do you mean by investigation?

Lucky Rescue
May 16th, 2005, 12:41 PM
No one implied a rescue was "adopting out" aggressive dogs.

I stand corrected. Thank you. In that case, I'm wondering even more what is your objection to a shelter giving dogs they cannot handle or have time for to a qualified rescue?

What one person calls aggression, another may not. Even if these dogs are slathering beasts, they are not being put into the hands of the general public or clueless people in any way.

most of the aggression issues have to do with other dogs, food or toys, these things are workable and are worked out in foster care with the help of trainers and potential adopters are made aware of this and must take the dog to school themselves.

I think that explains it pretty clearly.

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 01:10 PM
I stand corrected. Thank you. In that case, I'm wondering even more what is your objection to a shelter giving dogs they cannot handle or have time for to a qualified rescue?

No objections with an "affliate" shelter handing over dogs to qualified rescues.

Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

Duchess
May 16th, 2005, 01:16 PM
No objections with an "affliate" shelter handing over dogs to qualified rescues.

Warmly,
Kimberly
www.kismutt.com
www.canadanopuppymills.com

Hmmm...what's the difference in responsibility between a branch and an affiliate releasing dogs to rescue? Why is one OK and not the other?

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Hmmm...what's the difference in responsibility between a branch and an affiliate releasing dogs to rescue? Why is one OK and not the other?

Hi Duchess,

OSPCA (Branches):
-have licensed Animal Cruelty officers on staff
-are No Kill (with the exception of human aggressive dogs)
-do not sell to research
-go to great lengths to save animals lives (example: dentals, broken bones, eye surgeries, etc. etc.)
-use carefully screened foster homes
-every animal is spayed/neutered prior to adoption

Affiliates:
Private not-for-profit animal welfare organizations.
They receive 0 funding from the OSPCA.
They make up their own rules as they are privately run.
They often (about half of them) are on contract with the “city” or “county” to do animal control
The only funds they receive are through bequest income, private donations, and company donations
IF they receive enough funding, they can hire a Licensed Animal Cruelty officer from the OSPCA. The majority of affiliates cannot afford this. Very few Affiliates have a Licensed Animal Cruelty Officer. They have to beg borrow and steal from the OSPCA if they cannot afford their own.
If they do not have the room to house animals, and they have not received enough donations that week, that month or that year, they will resort to euthanasia or send dogs to rescue.
They make up their own rules.
If they did something "wrong", that is their worry. Not the OSPCA.


The easiest way to differentiate the two is this: think of Affiliates as a big private rescue.

Warmly,
Kimberly

Toonces
May 16th, 2005, 04:44 PM
No, I did not say that. If the dogs were actually aggressive, we would not have taken them. Let me quote myself:

I don't now if you have ever seen a gsd in a cage at the shelter but they do not do well in cages, they can snarl, growl and jump up and be quite intimidating and look quite scarey but once out of the cage are fine, the dogs we take are tested at the shelter first with the foster parents dogs first to make sure they are good with other dogs.

You said that OSPCA Branches do not release to rescue, for any reason. That was incorrect.



Toonces, is stating that brances of the OSPCA is releasing aggressive dogs to her German Shepherd Rescue. And this is completely false.

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 05:14 PM
I am a foster Mom for GSRT and we rescued dogs from some of the OSPCA branches. We said no to one dog from one Branch for severely aggressive bahevarious and there's been a couple we just did not have spots for. This dog's owners brought him to the SPCA branch, and the SPCA had to call them to come back in and muzzle him so they could get near him because he was acting real aggressive, and they asked GSRT to take him.

When the investigation is fully complete, we will know the truth. I have had one responding letter already. I know what the truth is. I have every confidence in the OSPCA, to investigate each dog that you state GSRT was "asked" to take and the one that was released to GSRT. Be patient.

Warmly,
Kimberly

LavenderRott
May 16th, 2005, 05:25 PM
Gosh, Kim, it sure is a good thing that we have you here to report everything said directly to the OSPCA. I sure hope that your "investigation" gets you the answers that you are looking for.

Personally, I think it would be rather irresponsible of a shelter, of any type, to disregard rescue groups. There are some breeds that do not handle shelter life very well at all and some individuals of those breeds who would appear viscious in a shelter environment. That those who work in a shelter realizes this and is willing to give dogs of "questionable" temperment over to a responsible rescue group that is capable of dealing with a dog's issues is something that should be applauded, not condemned.

At my local shelter, the "trained animal control officers" can't tell the difference between a golden retriever and a labrador retriever. I sure wouldn't want them to be responsible for evaluating temperment!

Toonces
May 16th, 2005, 05:28 PM
The sad truth is we are asked to take dogs they don't think they can rehome, what is the problem with that? Just because a dog has problem with his or her toys, food or other dogs does not mean they would not make a good pet they just need a firm hand.

I really don't understand why you are making such a big issue of this, sounds like you have a personal problem with laureen and that is really sad because all people in rescue sould pull together and help one another isn't it supposed to be about the animals? Why is it so different for a branch to hand over a dog rather than an affiliate if the rescue they go to makes sure they are fixed and healthy and tempermant tested? Please help me understand this.

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 05:44 PM
Gosh, Kim, it sure is a good thing that we have you here to report everything said directly to the OSPCA. I sure hope that your "investigation" gets you the answers that you are looking for.!

When people make false statements on a public forum, that is not only serious, but potentially liable.


Personally, I think it would be rather irresponsible of a shelter, of any type, to disregard rescue groups. There are some breeds that do not handle shelter life very well at all and some individuals of those breeds who would appear viscious in a shelter environment.

Most breeds do not do well in a shelter enviornment. OSPCA dogs with questionable behaviors (other than human aggression) are placed in screened foster homes to evalute. A home evniornment often makes the difference. If there were more responsible, committed foster homes, more dogs could and would be placed in foster homes. I am streched to my max, as are the other foster homes.


At my local shelter, the "trained animal control officers" can't tell the difference between a golden retriever and a labrador retriever. I sure wouldn't want them to be responsible for evaluating temperment!

Animal Control officers are just that...animal control officers. I am sure there are good ones and bad ones.

Secondly, MI and Ontario, besides the obvious, they have their own regulations, policies and laws. That is like comparing apples to oranges.

Warmly,
Kimberly

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 05:50 PM
The sad truth is we are asked to take dogs they don't think they can rehome, what is the problem with that? Just because a dog has problem with his or her toys, food or other dogs does not mean they would not make a good pet they just need a firm hand.

I really don't understand why you are making such a big issue of this, sounds like you have a personal problem with laureen and that is really sad because all people in rescue sould pull together and help one another isn't it supposed to be about the animals? Why is it so different for a branch to hand over a dog rather than an affiliate if the rescue they go to makes sure they are fixed and healthy and tempermant tested? Please help me understand this.

Quite the opposite, Toonces. I think GSRT runs a trustworthy, reliable rescue. I highly doubt Lareen would state the OSPCA turns aggressive dogs over to her rescue. That would be bad for both the OSPCA and Laureen. I would think both are more responsible than that.

BMDLuver
May 16th, 2005, 05:52 PM
When the investigation is fully complete, we will know the truth. I have had one responding letter already. I know what the truth is. I have every confidence in the OSPCA, to investigate each dog that you state GSRT was "asked" to take and the one that was released to GSRT. Be patient.

Warmly,
Kimberly
What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this thread taking the turn it has? Many of us know whom you are talking about and respect her and the work she does. If you have a personal vendetta against this person then take it privately. Do you not see the harm you are doing by this "investigation" through the OSPCA? You are not only going to affect the way rescues are viewed by the OSPCA but will also affect the number of animals then turned over to rescue. You are trying to work reputably but the appearance is not that of someone who understands how hard rescues work with dogs in their care. Perhaps a mistake was made with one dog, I really don't know, but I do know that many rescues try to help dogs that may in the end need to be euthanized as their problems are unsurmountable or they get into a situation that the trigger was not evident for, either way, no one is infallible and no dog is completely predictable at all times. Why go after someone publically? Is it for personal gratification? Why become a member of several different rescue forums and offer help for transportation etc if you aren't willing to cut some slack for other rescues? I don't understand the need for this whatsoever and would appreciate some honest answers. Thanks.

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 06:17 PM
I don't understand the need for this whatsoever and would appreciate some honest answers. Thanks.

Re-read my last post.

As stated in the very beginning, I do both rescue and OSPCA work. I see both sides of the fence. For individuals to come on a public form here and make false accusations against the OSPCA, is completely insulting.

If I were to come on this open forum and make slanderous, false accusations against a reputable rescue without merit or proof it would be removed from this board. Does that make it OK for an individual to make false slanderous statements against the OSPCA? I do take it personally when an individual tries to condemn the OSPCA. They save more lives each year then all our Ontario rescues put together.

Warmly,
Kimberly

BMDLuver
May 16th, 2005, 06:28 PM
I posted while you were posting. So, then I'm still confused. If you feel this is a good person/rescue then I'm not sure who is being reported to the OSPCA and who made inappropriate comments? Bear with me, I think I'm now a bit muddled. Thanks.

happycats
May 16th, 2005, 06:35 PM
PLEASE everyone, If your love for animals isn't stronger then your dislike for eachother, then please get out of the rescue business! Please put your focus and energy into saving animals, not arguing here PLEASE!!
The only ones who will suffer in all this are the animals :sad:
So please I ask all of you, love animals more the you dislike each other.

Everyone here has one thing in common (the love of animals, and I am sure everyone here can agree on one thing, you all have their best intrest at heart) please look at that and beyond everything else, and move on!!

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 06:47 PM
I posted while you were posting..

:) Why don't you just call me, it would be much easier to speak than type. ;)

So, then I'm still confused. If you feel this is a good person/rescue then I'm not sure who is being reported to the OSPCA and who made inappropriate comments? Bear with me, I think I'm now a bit muddled. Thanks.

I believe GSRT, is a very good rescue, and I believe they do very very well with the dogs the pull from shelters.

What I don't believe is the OSPCA handing over aggressive dogs to any rescue. Could you imagine the public thinking the OSPCA hands over aggressive dogs to rescue's because "they" can't deal with them? So now there are aggressive German Shepherds being sent out into the community? I can guarantee you the OSPCA does not hand over aggressive dogs to rescues. Mine, yours, or anyone elses.

If the dog is adoptable, it is adopted through the OSPCA. Why would the dog need to go to a rescue? If the dog has some problems, it is sent into foster care, and then adopted.

I have a puppymill dog, lying in my office right now. He shiver and shakes and cowers. He defecates wherever he decides too. He is also jet black. Who would ever adopt him in the shelter? He would not do well in the shelter. The OSPCA has paid for everything for this dog. They have went above and beyond for this dog. So, when an individual comes on here and states, "the OSPCA puts dogs down because they are not perfect", that couldn't be farthest from the truth.

Who rescued this dog from the mill? The OSPCA. Who paid for his surgeries? The OSPCA. Who paid for his several different medications and vet visits? The OSPCA. Who is paying for his food? The OSPCA. How long would they allow me to keep him until he is adoptable? However long it takes.

This dog, and the other 300+ dogs I have fostered over the years, all owe their lives to the OSPCA.

Warmly,
Kimberly


Warmly,
Kimberly

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 06:51 PM
PLEASE everyone, If your love for animals isn't stronger then your dislike for eachother, then please get out of the rescue business! Please put your focus and energy into saving animals, not arguing here PLEASE!!
The only ones who will suffer in all this are the animals :sad:
So please I ask all of you, love animals more the you dislike each other.

Everyone here has one thing in common (the love of animals, and I am sure everyone here can agree on one thing, you all have their best intrest at heart) please look at that and beyond everything else, and move on!!

God Bless you Happycats. And your right. We all love animals, this is why we are so passionate. I am not fighting, I am expressing my views as are the other posters. I would not come on an open forum and bash another rescue. Ever. If I didn't like another rescue, I would just steer clear of them, and bite my tounge. :)

Warmly,
Kimberly

BMDLuver
May 16th, 2005, 07:10 PM
:) Why don't you just call me, it would be much easier to speak than type. ;)

lol, now I'm even more confused. As I don't know from signons, I guess I know you somehow? Guess once I figure that out, I'll call. :confused:

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 07:13 PM
lol, now I'm even more confused. As I don't know from signons, I guess I know you somehow? Guess once I figure that out, I'll call. :confused:

My number is right on my webiste. www.kismutt.com Feel free :)

BMDLuver
May 16th, 2005, 07:15 PM
I was beginning to think I was losing my mind, I might be but at least it's not totally lost. :eek:

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 07:35 PM
I was beginning to think I was losing my mind, I might be but at least it's not totally lost. :eek:

Would you be kind enough to post a picture on this thread? I have not figured out how to do this yet :)

BMDLuver
May 16th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Can do so. Send it to teddyscaninerailroad@hotmail.com and I'll upload it.

Duchess
May 16th, 2005, 07:52 PM
:)What I don't believe is the OSPCA handing over aggressive dogs to any rescue. Could you imagine the public thinking the OSPCA hands over aggressive dogs to rescue's because "they" can't deal with them? So now there are aggressive German Shepherds being sent out into the community? I can guarantee you the OSPCA does not hand over aggressive dogs to rescues. Mine, yours, or anyone elses.


Warmly,
Kimberly

As stated earlier, this thread might be much less confusing if you offered your definition of "aggression". If you're limiting your definition to human aggression, then there's no question that GSRT does not take dogs into rescue that pose a threat to people. All of the rescued dogs are pulled from shelters and are living in foster homes with real families.
But it's misleading to say that some of the OSPCA branches have never called rescue for other forms of aggression, whether it's dog- or fear-based, or in many cases, caused by barrier frustration. That's where you get the stereotypical GSD lunging at the sides of a kennel. That is not aggression; that's a breed specific behaviour and those are the dogs that desperately need to go into rescue.
I personally know of at least one "branch" of the OSPCA that called rescue to help with a dog-aggressive dog. Fortunately, the dog found a home before a foster came available.
You're trying to turn this into a rescue versus OSPCA battle. Fortunately, this situation doesn't exist and rescues are thrilled when shelters call for help. It simply means that they're increasing the odds for dogs that may not present well in a shelter environment.
Give rescues some credit and realize that they're not going to put "people aggressive" dogs out into the community. But they are often much better equipped to deal with other forms of behavioural challenges, and dogs that were deemed unadoptable in the shelter are often successfully re-homed.
Ultimately, I think the point many posters are making focuses on your "investigation" and the damage that can be done by implying that the OSPCA has done something wrong by contacting rescue. Shelters and rescues need to work together and maintain a co-operative relationship in order to save as many supposedly unadoptable dogs as possible. Why would you try to damage that relationship?

Lucky Rescue
May 16th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Forgive me but I have totally lost track of this thread.

Kismutt, could you please copy and paste the "false slanderous statements against the OSPCA"?

I dont' feel like reading every post here to find these statements. Thanks.

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 08:03 PM
BMDluver is kindly uploading a picture for me.

I would like to tell you Puff's story. She came from a mill here in Ontario. I visited this mill in January. I cannot disclose which one or where.

Several of her mill mates were seized. Puff is 9 years old. She is almost completely blind. She has had so many puppies her underside was a mess. The poor girl lost 7 teeth with her dental. She had many many problems, but, the OSPCA paid to restore her health and confidence. Whatever she needed she got :)

Puff has now been adopted to a wonderful lady named Sandra. Sandra just recently sent me these beautiful photo's of Puff in her new home. I am sure Puff feels she has went from hell straight to heaven.

It has and will costs tens of thousands of dollars to prosecute. All of us have the OSPCA to thank for all the hundreds and hundreds of dogs out there, just like Puff, that are saved and provided for each year.

Warmly,
Kimberly

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 08:15 PM
I dont' feel like reading every post here to find these statements. Thanks.

????

Good night.

Warmly,
Kimberly

BMDLuver
May 16th, 2005, 08:20 PM
????

Good night.

Warmly,
Kimberly
That was in reference to this... lol It's one big request.

Forgive me but I have totally lost track of this thread.

Kismutt, could you please copy and paste the "false slanderous statements against the OSPCA"?

I dont' feel like reading every post here to find these statements. Thanks.

BMDLuver
May 16th, 2005, 08:32 PM
I resized it but this is the photo. There you go Kismutt! :)

LL1
May 16th, 2005, 08:33 PM
I'm kinda confused.You have avoided almost every question Kim.Why?

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 08:53 PM
I am a foster Mom for GSRT and we rescued dogs from some of the OSPCA branches. We said no to one dog from one Branch for severely aggressive bahevarious and there's been a couple we just did not have spots for. We don't have anything saying case number, we have some numbers like the log in number on the top right of the Ontario OSPCA Animal Surrender Form We have slips and they marked box F for miscalaneous and they put down transfer to our rescue.

This dog's owners brought him to the SPCA branch, and the SPCA had to call them to come back in and muzzle him so they could get near him because he was acting real aggressive, and they asked GSRT to take him.

This dog was aggressive with men in the SPCA branch and they asked GSRT to take him. Another rescue gave us lots of help with him.

I have answered every question asked of me.

Aggressive towards humans. It is completely false that any branch of the OSPCA would transfer an agressive dog like described above.

The above statement, even though false, makes the OSPCA look irresponsible.

Warmly,
Kimberly

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 08:57 PM
I resized it but this is the photo. There you go Kismutt! :)

Thank you Bmdluver. Sometime you will have to explain to me how to post pictures on a forum. :)

Warmly,
Kimberly

LavenderRott
May 16th, 2005, 10:27 PM
I must still be missing something here.

The dog mentioned in the above post was "aggressive" towards men. What exactly does that mean? It barked at men? It lunged at men? It snapped at men? Since it doesn't mention that the dog has a bite history, I must assume that it's aggression doesn't include biting men.

A German Shepherd barking at someone certainly looks more menacing than a beagle. What on earth is so wrong about placing a dog with a group that has made it their business, so to speak, to deal with different issues in certain breeds of dogs? If I was looking for a rottweiler to adopt, I promise you, I would be checking out a reputable rottweiler rescue group as opposed to an all breed group. Why? These people know rottweilers. They wouldn't treat a training issue in a rottweiler like you would the same issue with, say, a chihuahua.

Kismutt
May 16th, 2005, 11:41 PM
Ultimately, I think the point many posters are making focuses on your "investigation" and the damage that can be done by implying that the OSPCA has done something wrong by contacting rescue. Shelters and rescues need to work together and maintain a co-operative relationship in order to save as many supposedly unadoptable dogs as possible. Why would you try to damage that relationship?

The OSPCA has done nothing wrong. I have said over and over the statement made that the OSPCA places aggressive dogs into rescue is simply not true.

The dogs mentioned were not turned over by the OSPCA. If they were turned over by an affiliate, that is something different.

You know what? Everyone has access to the email address of the head office of the OSPCA. Copy the above post with pictures included and email it away.

Find out for yourselves, don't rely on me. Seek out the truth.

Enough said on this subject.

Warmly,
Kimberly

Duchess
May 17th, 2005, 08:35 AM
You know what? Everyone has access to the email address of the head office of the OSPCA. Copy the above post with pictures included and email it away.

Find out for yourselves, don't rely on me. Seek out the truth.

Enough said on this subject.

Warmly,
Kimberly

This is exactly the point. I can only speak for myself, but I don't think it's necessary to run to the OSPCA with this post or launch an "investigation". We WANT shelters to contact rescue when they find themselves with dogs that aren't considered adoptable - whether they're old, sick or exhibiting behavioural problems. The last thing we want to do is put shelters on the defensive and make them reluctant to contact rescue.
We know the truth. There are lots of breeds that don't do well in a shelter environment, but put them into a foster home and they're transformed. No one has said that the OSPCA calls rescue for dogs that attack people - it's been said that rescue has been called for dogs that exhibit "aggressive" behaviour, which would understandably put off most potential adopters. Again, keep in mind that aggressive (a word that's constantly overused and misused, by the way) doesn't equal "biter".

Duchess
May 17th, 2005, 08:40 AM
Puff has now been adopted to a wonderful lady named Sandra. Sandra just recently sent me these beautiful photo's of Puff in her new home. I am sure Puff feels she has went from hell straight to heaven.

It has and will costs tens of thousands of dollars to prosecute. All of us have the OSPCA to thank for all the hundreds and hundreds of dogs out there, just like Puff, that are saved and provided for each year.

Warmly,
Kimberly

This is a wonderful story! No one has said that the OSPCA isn't providing a valuable service. It seems like you feel the need to defend the organization, but no one is attacking the OSPCA. Actually, they should be congratulated for contacting rescue when they don't have the resources to deal with certain dogs in the shelter.

marko
May 17th, 2005, 10:26 AM
This thread has run its course and will now be closed.

Remember again please - No naming people or companies or rescues in an open forum.