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Liberals = Extortion. Kickbacks. Forgeries. Blackmail. Fraud. Waste.

twodogsandacat
April 8th, 2005, 05:55 PM
I really enjoy this and I enjoy the fact that many don’t recognize the difference between Federal and Provincial Liberals. Good Luck Mr. McGuinty in convincing the voters that birds of a feather don’t stick together. As Mr. Bryant said “a breed apart”.

Reminds me of a line from an eighties song: Kick em while they’re down.

I'm just lacing up my boots, this ought to be fun. They seem so good at shooting themselves in the foot it may be the real reason behind the gun control laws.

************************************************** ****
He glanced at reporters salivating to escape his news quarantine, looked at the bank of television cameras carrying his inquiry live for the first time in a week and issued the order: Unleash hell.
When Justice John Gomery lifted his own publication ban Thursday on jaw-dropping testimony by Groupaction president Jean Brault, a nightmare of allegations against the federal Liberal party gushed forth into the public domain in a firestorm of ferocity……………………………………….
The Liberals swapped cash for contracts, kicked back money for nothing and traded payola for spots on Brault's payroll…………………………………………
If Brault's allegations stick and voter revulsion spreads beyond Quebec, this Liberal government's fate can now be carved in six words on its sponsorship program tombstone: Extortion. Kickbacks. Forgeries. Blackmail. Fraud. Waste.
Full Story Here: http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=a8f0cd91-bc48-48d6-afc1-35b9bc4027c1

db7
April 8th, 2005, 06:45 PM
Wooohoooo! Good -bye Criminals.

Lizzie
April 8th, 2005, 08:43 PM
I honestly don't think it's going to make any difference. People have already forgotten about it...or have been saying that they will still vote Liberal. I personally think that's a HUGE mistake--I'm far from a Liberal--it's going to take much more it seems to crack the Liberal followers.....

kigaro
April 8th, 2005, 09:08 PM
what's happening to the liberal party now could happen to any party in power.

db7
April 8th, 2005, 09:40 PM
NO NO NO.

People say "Oh, politicians always take care of themselves. It doesn't matter what party it is"

That is true but this is really different.

This is not an MP giving someone front of the line for a mid-level job.

This is long-term systematic criminal behaviour that is the culture of the Quebec (at the very least) wing of the Liberal party.

It has severely eroded Quebecois trust in the government of Canada. And has caused long term damage to the health of the federation.

Jean Chretien's brother has been implicated in stealing cash from you the taxpayer as part of a kickback/extortion scheme.

And what we know now is only the tip of the iceberg. There will be more and larger criminal actions revealed as the Gomery Commission goes on. Brault is just the beginning.

Wait 'till the start revealing the connections between the Liberal Party and the Mafia.

This is awful for Canada.

The government will fall and there will be an election in November. (You heard it here first folks!)

Faceless
April 8th, 2005, 10:15 PM
The scariest part though is that Ontarians generally vote for different parties federally and provincially. So if the federal Liberals get trounced, it's quite possible that McGuinty and fools will be re-elected. McGuinty's popularity is rising now because the geniuses in this province think he's actually standing up to his federal cousins.

Politics is for suckers.

Prin
April 8th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Maybe this is a conspiricy that is deeper than we think? I mean if it's a Quebecois thing like you say db7, maybe the reason they did it was not about the money. Supposedly this garbage is getting anglos who were "unquestioning federalists" to consider voting yes in the next referendum, so maybe that was the plan all along? I mean REALLY, who ever heard of a federalist from SHAWINIGAN??? There are hardly any federalists outside Montreal. They fought their way in just to bugger up the fed's image so we would turn against Canada.

What do you say aboot that, eh?

kigaro
April 9th, 2005, 10:55 AM
NO NO NO.

People say "Oh, politicians always take care of themselves. It doesn't matter what party it is"

That is true but this is really different.

This is not an MP giving someone front of the line for a mid-level job.

This is long-term systematic criminal behaviour that is the culture of the Quebec (at the very least) wing of the Liberal party.

It has severely eroded Quebecois trust in the government of Canada. And has caused long term damage to the health of the federation.

Jean Chretien's brother has been implicated in stealing cash from you the taxpayer as part of a kickback/extortion scheme.

And what we know now is only the tip of the iceberg. There will be more and larger criminal actions revealed as the Gomery Commission goes on. Brault is just the beginning.

Wait 'till the start revealing the connections between the Liberal Party and the Mafia.

This is awful for Canada.

The government will fall and there will be an election in November. (You heard it here first folks!)


i'm not saying don't hold them accountable. just don't think for one second that this couldn't have happened to another party, perhaps under a different context.

links b/t government & mafia at all levels of government are nothing new.

db7
April 9th, 2005, 11:21 AM
links b/t government & mafia at all levels of government are nothing new.

No kidding, like the Christian Democrat party that ruled Italy for 50 yrs after WW2.

The same party that included senator Maurizio Creuso who was, you guessed it, convicted of corruption, fraud and kickbacks on government contracts. This same senator fled Itlay to avoid the jail-time. He is a wanted man.

But he is safe because Alfonso Gagliano, his buddy, arranged a free pass to emmigrate to Canada for him, despite his criminal status. Where he has enjoyed a multitude of generous Canadian Government contracts.

The fact is it didn't "Happen" to the Liberal Party, the top leaders of the party actively stole our money. We know today that it involved the Prime Ministers Office making decisions and that Jean Chretien received $30,000 of the stolen money for election campaign.

Regardless of what party they have to pay. We cannot let the government steal from us and get away with it. The government must fall for this.

They should all go to jail.

CyberKitten
April 9th, 2005, 11:38 AM
As scandals go, it probably trumps Watergate but I have to admit I am not shocked by it. I AM more shocked about Galiano (sp?)'s ties to the mafia and why that is not being explored more. The country began with the Pacific Scandal - all that money stolen by Upper Canadian bankers, <g> - and there have been others throughout our history at every level of govt.

Then again, there is that old adage about Cdn politics - in BC, it's a cause, in the west a religion, in Ontario a business, in the Maritimes a disease and in Quebec a crime.

Lizzie
April 9th, 2005, 11:45 AM
I disagree that it would happen with another party.

If the NDP or the CPC were in power they wouldn't have the balls to do that. They would value the fact that they FINALLY got a chance to change things. The Libs did it because they've been in power so long--thought no one would notice bc of their big heads...

The other parties don't have that going for them...they are much more responsible and if you look at their platforms they even include that they will step down, etc if something like that ever came out on them...the libs don't say they will....that means something.

twodogsandacat
April 9th, 2005, 12:22 PM
For me it just means I can have some fun and not be charged with slander or libel.

I recently had to remove my back bumper after getting hit as it interfered with opening the rear doors. I drive an Isuzu Trooper and can't seem to find a decent replacement at the wreckers. I won't buy a new one as I am thinking of buying a new SUV (dog hauler).

Instead I plan on having a graphics shop print of a bumper sticker to put in it's place 'I think the Liberals stole my bumper".

Other posters I'm considering are:

Two Liberals Talking is a Conspiracy.

Liberals - The New Teflon Dons.

Basically I don't plan on converting too many hard core Liberals - I plan on converting a whole bunch of those that vote Liberal without much thought, convincing those that don't vote that they ought to and for those undecided that arrive at the polls before really knowing how they will vote with such a bad taste in their mouths for Liberals that they will simply vote for another party without much thought.

If a Liberal is convicted in this scandal then all the better.

Lizzie
April 9th, 2005, 12:47 PM
I want them out just as much, if not more than you do twocatsandadog..so i understand!!

Enough is enough as far as im concerned!! I simply can't take it anymore!

chico2
April 9th, 2005, 05:28 PM
Cyber-kitten,Galiano is a real sleeze-ball,as punishment he was sent to Denmark as the Canadian Ambassador,what an insult to the Danes :evil:
Well,he's back here in Canada and I hope a nice jail-cell :evil:

CyberKitten
April 9th, 2005, 08:13 PM
Lizzie, surely you are not naieve enough it does not happen in other parties. I admittedly have never voted Liberal EVER in my life and do not intend to start but do not consider the other parties lily white either - even tho I am a card carrying member of one of the two you mention. The NDP has tied to organized labour - which causes some probs for them and the Tories also have weathered a few scandals (check your history books). I do think the CBC would be much more ON this story if it happened to Mulroney tho.

Sadly, I think national unity is ruined forever and that is the worst casualty of all.

I agree Chico - I hope he gets a jail cell too.

Lizzie
April 9th, 2005, 08:28 PM
CK--I am certainly not naive...however, I do believe that the inclusion of a "step down" clause within the platform stands above no inclusion at all--which was void in the Liberals...perhaps they will add it. This at least gives Canadians the opportunity to hold a party accountable without having to wait for a legal battle to conclude.

I think it shows responsibility--which I believe is far more prevalent in other parties.

I don't feel like saying where I work--but I can assure you I am familiar with what goes on in politics. :thumbs up

CyberKitten
April 9th, 2005, 08:44 PM
A step down clause? You mean, like recall? That has not worked so well in BC! There may be some vague wording about this in the policies of other parties but it is not written in law - one needs to form a govt and actually pass the law for that to happen so I will hold my breath for that to happen. Due to privacy concerns, I too will not name the party or position but I have been involved in politics too -.

When I was much younger, I thought my party becoming govt would be so wonderful. Alas, sometimes then the real fighting begins, lol It is like the Premiers with their health accord. Like that really is going to change my day every day when I care for sick and dying children - they come for the photo op. That's it!!

(Although admittedly John Hamm of NS has been good since he actually IS a doctor and understands the system).

chico2
April 10th, 2005, 09:10 AM
Harris,Eves and their co-horts at least kept their promise,cut taxes,destroy the social safetynet,destroy our education and healthcare,make the poor poorer,fill the pockets of their businesspartners,fight organized labour,lets not forget :mad:
Yes,my husband and I got to keep a few more $$$$ in out wallets,but at what cost??More kids going hungry to school,more home-less...more strikes,threats of privatization..
I would never vote for PC,never have,never will,Mr Tory might be a amicable,friendly looking fellow,but still PC.
Mr Harper,with his holier-than-thou attitude,his Alliance connections,he would shut down any progress Canada has made on social issues and we would take one giant step backwards :evil:
Maybe by voting NDP,although they cannot win,they would get a stronger voice and be able to fight any unfair cut-backs...we'll see.

Lizzie
April 10th, 2005, 09:46 AM
Ultimately a minortiy goverment is the best way for Canadians to get what they want...which is what we've got now. One party with too many seats will always buzz a group of people. That's how it works.

With a minority at least they have to put more effort in--and work for their money a little more.

Faceless
April 10th, 2005, 12:07 PM
Harris,Eves and their co-horts at least kept their promise,cut taxes,destroy the social safetynet,destroy our education and healthcare,make the poor poorer,fill the pockets of their businesspartners,fight organized labour,lets not forget :mad:
Yes,my husband and I got to keep a few more $$$$ in out wallets,but at what cost??More kids going hungry to school,more home-less...more strikes,threats of privatization..
I would never vote for PC,never have,never will,Mr Tory might be a amicable,friendly looking fellow,but still PC.
Mr Harper,with his holier-than-thou attitude,his Alliance connections,he would shut down any progress Canada has made on social issues and we would take one giant step backwards :evil:
Maybe by voting NDP,although they cannot win,they would get a stronger voice and be able to fight any unfair cut-backs...we'll see.

You really think that you haven't been affected by media (read: the Star's) propaganda?

Destroying the social safety net? Give me a break. They introduced workfare, big deal. I have known many welfare cheats in my time, so making them work for it shouldn't be a big deal. Healthcare was destroyed by the federal Liberals cutting the transfer payments to the provinces; the Harris government actually spent MORE money on it than previous Liberal and NDP governments. As for education, it doesn't matter which government is in power, the teachers' unions will cause conflicts ... see all the strike threats against the provincial Liberals, who basically got elected on a platform of giving teachers EVERYTHING they want. And, academic standards are higher, it's about time.

Fighting organized labour: again, I work in a unionized environment, and let me tell you, there are a lot of problems, and if you don't believe union leaders just exist to cause conflict and trouble, while lining their OWN pockets with worker's money, well, what can I say.

As for privatization, yes, it is troubling, but goverments mismanage most of their responsibilities so maybe you can understand why looking into that would be appealing for some. How about the huge Hydro Debt that has no chance of being paid off anytime in the future?

The ignorance you display about Harper and the Allliance borders on the ridiculous. They are no more evil than any other party. In fact, they have basically just become identical to the federal Liberals with their new adopted policies. Believing that Harper and the majority of his party is "evil" reeks of Liberal and the Star's propaganda.

The NDP has made a complete and utter mess everywhere they have been granted power (think BC and Ontario provincially.) They lost official party status in Ontario for awhile; their hopes of ever forming another government are miniscule to say the least.

Look, I am not a Conservative voter (I have never voted for a PC in my life) but I'm not going to sit around and not comment when you try to pass off your opinion (which apparently has been heavily influenced by the media) as fact, especially when it's just parroting the same crap that the Liberals slander the PCs with.

Lizzie
April 10th, 2005, 12:15 PM
Facts to consider:

Mulroney won the most seats in Canadian history

Harris was voted in twice--getting his majority.

Therefore--many many people out there in Ontario and the entire country do in fact enjoy that these two individuals kept their election promises.

LL1
April 10th, 2005, 02:55 PM
You're right,and it boggles the mind.Much like realizing people actually would vote in Bush.

CyberKitten
April 10th, 2005, 03:46 PM
The real debate and concern here should not be a trivial discussion about what party is better than another but about the sorry state of affairs the Liberal Party has left national unity in. We may not have a country to worry about after the mess they've left us with. Yes, it enrages me that the taxes I pay (and I pay lots!) has gone to some disreputable people and I want the money back in the govt coffers and the guilty parties (pun intended) in jail. Ironically, the money was spent to advance national untity.

Now, Quebec voters are so angry at the Liberals that it will be a warm day in February before they vote Liberal as a province - or so it seems. I never underestimate voters. In the last election, the Liberals sucessfully portrayed Messers Harper et al as slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun and not in tune with Canadian values. Of course, the Alliance-Conservatives were complicit in this and aided the cause immesnely when they ridiculed the Atlantic Provinces (calling us lazy which is more than ridiculous - I bet they never fished lobster in -40 weather!) and had the occasional Yahoo in the party make some remark that bordered on racism. There are some good people in this newly constituted party and I do not want to judge them all as "right wing bad guys" who want to hurt every "poor" person and help every rich donor. The Liberals have always campaigned from the left and governed from the right so actually, irregardless of the personalities, there is not much difference between the two. To be honest, I sadly miss the Progressive Conservative Party. Even Brian Mulroney often quipped that he was a PC "with the emphasis on the adjective rather than the noun". Given the typical Canadian voter - if such an entity exists given our regional variances - s/he is a moderate voter who wants tax cuts and credits but also is proud of our national health care system with all its problems. (I studied medicine in the US - at Harvard - so my sense of the US is they are paying for a system they do not have. ie - their govt spends more of its GDP on health care yet nearly 40 mil Americans have no access to health care). For all our complaints, we still have access and a very goos system!)

I come from a PC family (sort of a Maritime tradition - if your family voted one way, you tend to define yourself thus). The problem is the PC Party is dead and buried. Stephen Harper may very well be a smart man - he often tells the jokes you just know the reporters do not get and has an intriging sense of humour. I met him twice and he is more likeable in person than the personna that comes across on screen, at least to me. That said, when he strays from the tax credits and the PC Party tradition of conservatism (in the best Edmund Burke school of thought :) ), and opts to highlight so called "family values", a rather ubiquitous import from the Republican Party in the US, he loses me and I think, many other voters. He also would have gone to war in Iraq, not something I could ever support. As I cast my ballot last spring, the thought of Myron Thompson serving in any cabinet portfolio - not to mention the loud and superagressive Jason Kenny (who causes me to change the channel) - ensured the X I marked did NOT go for the Conservative Party. Now, if Bernard Lord were to become Leader, I might rethink that choice. ;)

This entire thing scares me. The NDP - who have great ideas and I adore Tommy Douglas (It is thanks to him we do have medicare and he even balanced a budget the entire time he was in office in Saskatechewan - something the person who wrote above about the NDP fails to note) - I'd love to support. I like Jack Layton too - even if he is from Toronto which does not seem to understand the rest of Canada <Really ducking> - but Jack grew up outside Montreal sooo...... - but the ties with organized labour always bother me. I do not think any party should represent a particular interest group. Then again tho, as old Tommy used to say "He who pays the piper calls the tune" and in both the Liberal and the Conservative parties, the the piper is bought and paid for other interest groups, some of whom would like to dismantle medicare.

My dad - a cynic at heart- voted for the Green Party because he said they may as well get some money so they too can become crooks. Indeed, in Halifax, the Green Party outpolled the new Conservative Party who came fourth.

So our next Parliament may well have a Tory government but if the Bloc wins Quebec, the Conservatives the west and maybe parts of Ontario, the Liberals Toronto and parts of the Maritimes, we will have another pizza parliament. Maybe we need to be looking at changing our first past the post system to some form of proportional representation. Israel is the only country to have true prop rep but it is a constant game of govt making. Other democracies - Austalia, Ireland, etc have a combination and with five major parties and the Greens now on the scene, we need to do the same.

The 25% of New Brunswickers who voted NDP for ex (many Tories unhappy with Harper and social conservatism) are not represented unless they happen to live in Acadie Bathurst. Similarly, the 21% of electors in the Sagueny who voted Tory have no rep at all either.

Jeffrey Simpson called the Jean Chretien govt a "Friendly dictatorship" It appears it was friendly only to ad agencies who played their extortion game. Paul Martin was Finance Minister in that administration and while he may have been too busy trying to knife Jean in the back and win the top prize for himself, no one involved in politics is so stupid to not know what is going on in his own province!!

Anyway -- sorry to be so long! I like politics and I am getting fed up with all this!

chico2
April 10th, 2005, 05:21 PM
Cyberkitten you have on more than one occasion shown you know what you are talking about,thank you for that :thumbs up

Faceless,I respect your opinion,we all have different reasons for thinking the way we do,The Toronto Star not being one of them,at least not in my case.
I am not standing on a soap-box trying to convert anyone,just simply stating how I feel,if that displeases you,that's fine,no problem... :D
Canada is finally making some headway,regarding certain important social issues.Mr Harper might be a great stand-up man,wonderful family values,a great believer,but so is Mr Bush and Mr Harper would quickly shut down any progress we have made in showing the world we are not the US,we can think for ourselves.

Prin
April 10th, 2005, 05:26 PM
Personally, I'd like to see what the NDP does with power.

Faceless
April 10th, 2005, 07:02 PM
Faceless,I respect your opinion,we all have different reasons for thinking the way we do,The Toronto Star not being one of them,at least not in my case.
I am not standing on a soap-box trying to convert anyone,just simply stating how I feel,if that displeases you,that's fine,no problem... :D
Canada is finally making some headway,regarding certain important social issues.Mr Harper might be a great stand-up man,wonderful family values,a great believer,but so is Mr Bush and Mr Harper would quickly shut down any progress we have made in showing the world we are not the US,we can think for ourselves.

And of course I respect your right to state your opinion, but if it is presented as "fact" then expect it to be questioned.

Oh yeah, and there are differing opinions on whether we're really making "headway" on certain social issues or not. Being Canadian is not just about proving we're "different" from Americans. Truthfully, the US is Canada's greatest friend and ally, even if Liberals and liberals want to think otherwise.

chico2
April 10th, 2005, 07:43 PM
Faceless,first,I never stated that what I said was a fact,the fact is,it was my opinion,how I FEEL about the PC/Alliance party.
As for my ignorance about Harper and company,I don't just believe he would be a bad leader,I even THINK he would be a dangerous leader.
Again,my opinion :D
Oh...and Happy Birthday!!!

Prin
April 10th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Harper is not for Canada. He's an american republican in disguise. No abortion, no gay marriage, extensive ties to the US... It might not be about trying to no be Americans, but I won't vote for a guy who takes the worst things about the US and tries to enforce them over here. No thanks.

We need to separate church thinking from the state. Eventually there will be so few catholics that it will be ridiculous to uphold so many unbelievable traditions..

chico2
April 10th, 2005, 08:17 PM
Ditto to that Prin!!! :thumbs up

db7
April 10th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Just to set the record straight.

Quote from Harper.

"I have no intention of supporting abortion legislation, so that _there's no way that abortion rights are going to be overridden by my government._ It's that simple," he told reporters.

He has said this over and over. And the Conservative party REJECTED anti-abortion policy at ther Nationalconvention last month.

All the anti-abortion private members bills ever introduced (not that they could ever pass) were introduced by LIBERALS.

Harper is an economist not a SoCon nutbar.

LL1
April 10th, 2005, 08:29 PM
I agree with you on that first paragraph.

However,I would not say it is a Catholic issue,anymore than I would say it is a Christian,born again or Protestant issue.And the rest is offensive.

Harper is not for Canada. He's an american republican in disguise. No abortion, no gay marriage, extensive ties to the US... It might not be about trying to no be Americans, but I won't vote for a guy who takes the worst things about the US and tries to enforce them over here. No thanks.

We need to separate church thinking from the state. Eventually there will be so few catholics that it will be ridiculous to uphold so many unbelievable traditions..

db7
April 10th, 2005, 08:31 PM
Personally, I'd like to see what the NDP does with power.

Just look at Ontario under Bob Rae.

Massive debt
Recession
Unemployment
lower wages
businesses leaving the province
Government credit rating destroyed
high interest rates.

Lizzie
April 10th, 2005, 08:39 PM
As a follow up to that--it's also a part of their new policy declaration---A conservative government will not support any legislation on the issue of abortion.

NOT SUPPORT.

This was passed at the convention. Of course, the media only prints the negative since they are Liberals themselves.

Lizzie
April 10th, 2005, 08:44 PM
I agree with you DB7---the CPC are primarily about the fiscal policies. It's the SOCON's across the country that want and desire them to be a SOCON party. However, that doesn't mean that is what they are.

Yes, as with any party, there are members on both sides of these issues. This sort of make up is found within the Libs, NDP, Bloc and CPC. No party is void of these differing views.

CyberKitten
April 10th, 2005, 09:02 PM
I thought the issue of abortion recieved a lot of coverage during the Conservative convention - since it was so contentious. What channel do you watch, lol (NOT the one I was looking at I guess)

Alas, having actually participated in these policy conferences, my experience is the policies (and Mr. Harper's campaign mgr in NB agrees with me on this tho maybe not publicly, lol) may never see the light of a legislative fight. They are just that - a place to debate policies. When I was much younger and a party president, I honestly thought parties adopted policies and then somehow they became law when the party won the election. Politics is the art of deal making though and compromise and counting the votes (both in House and in the country) so I was mistaken on that account and I am much wiser now. :) (On that score at least)

I would not use the Bob Rae govt as an example for the NDP. Sask is a better one. The one in Ontario was such an aberation. Not saying they are perfect in govt - just that Ont is a horrible example and not at all that relevant to the rest of us. The social democratic policies of the PQ might be even more significant actually. (NOT their language laws but issues like auto insurance, etc)

CyberKitten
April 10th, 2005, 09:06 PM
I do not want to hijack the thread but as a short side question re: "We need to separate church thinking from the state. Eventually there will be so few catholics that it will be ridiculous to uphold so many unbelievable traditions.."

What on earth does that have to do with this issue? And what's wrong with someone observing their religious views? Why are they unbelievable?

Lizzie
April 10th, 2005, 09:13 PM
The difference CK is that you are interested in politics and follow it with a educated background in how it works. Not to offend anyone, but many people run with the headlines and jump on the fear mongering bandwagon without doing their own research. Sure, the paper's print what's going on, but it's up to each and every individual to find out what's what. Relying soley on the media for information does not necessarily lead to informed citizens. While it SHOULD in theory, with the twisted media system we have now, this is not the case.

And no. You are correct. When a party takes power, the entire contents of their policy documents do not become law. These are simply the promises they plan to work on. Some, not all, may make it to the table and become law. You can be assured that within each party platform there are several policies collecting dust, that will likely collect dust forever.

Lizzie
April 10th, 2005, 09:17 PM
Canada is founded on Christian values--marriage, if that is what you are referring to, is not soley a Catholic tradition. It is a tradition respected by many religions and non-religious people for that matter.

I'm sure that many of the laws, rights and freedoms we have today are due in part to the Christian and religious values brought to the table by the individuals responsible for drafting them.

CyberKitten
April 10th, 2005, 09:20 PM
For some reason, I feel compelled to point out that Bernard Lord was able to check off each of his promises in his first govt anyway, lol (including removing the tolls which he probably should not have promised). But c'est la vie!

Lizzie
April 10th, 2005, 09:23 PM
Checking off all of the promises is a much easier task to do in a majority government....minorities don't really provide the atmosphere for that.

CyberKitten
April 10th, 2005, 10:18 PM
Very true but it was copied by John Hamm in his minority govt. later the same year. (I worked in both elections) Nova Scotia will almost certainly have minority govts for the forseeable future with the NDP strong in Metron Halifax, the Liberals in Cape Breton and the Tories in mainland NS.

I also think Bernard Lord would make an excellent leader of the federal Tories since Stephen Harper (who really is quite intelligent whatever else what might be said of him tho I wish he'd stop talking about same sex marriage and clue in to what mainstreet Canada is really concerned with (high taxes (To his credit, he does refer to that as an economist), saving health care...) will have a hard go of it in Quebec. Bernard is effortless bilingual and while I realize one needs more than that to be a Prime Minister, he does have experience in managing both a majority and minority govt. He also did the impossible and brought back the COR party and the PC party when there was a schsim after the dismal 1987 election in which the Tories lost every seat (even tho they rec'd 28% of the vote - another time when prop rep would have been helpful!). In fact, at least two former COR members are in his cabinet and while they may be more socially conservative than I, it does not mean they are the devil incarnate. In the process, they have learned to be less doctrinaire and better at deal making. One of my best friends was a COR MLA - tho not engaged in active politics now, we disagree on bilingualism but that does not mean we cannot be loyal and good friends!

Bernard is also lucky in his opposition - a provincial civil war rages among the Liberal faithful or should I say the leader wannabes.

But my point is the federal Tories would do well to learn from the NB example. Be a moderate party and encourage those (esp PCers) who did not vote for them and bought the scare tactics of the media to return to the fold. Does anyone seriously believe the Conservatives will be able to be Republican Party North here? Bush has already told Harper off about not being hawkish enough on the missile defence issue). Politically, he cannot afford to be seen as too hawkish.

I rather think since the PC oops - Conservative - party has voted not to change abortion law, Harper will not do it. It would be tough to do anyway. One may need votes from other parties, like the NDP and the Bloc! And there are civil libertarians in the Conservative party as well who would not stand for govt interferance in any jurisdisdiction. AND there are people in the Liberal and NDP party who also oppose abortion. (Ex: Tom Woppel, Bev Desjardins)

Anyway - I have gone on too long as usual, sigh!!

I just think the federal Tories should learn from the NB example. And I hate the loss the word Progressive in the title!!

Prin
April 10th, 2005, 10:48 PM
They say that because they see an election on the horizon. Just like how Jean Chretien said "NO MORE GST!!!" A politician is a politician. They say things and then hide them come election time. Vote for him, and we'll see what mess he'll dump on us. We'll see. And we'll see truckloads of gays and underaged pregnant girls going elsewhere to get what they need.

CyberKitten
April 10th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Prin, I am still bothered by your remark about Catholics. I am an Irish Catholic and while I do not get to Church as much as I should - and am angry as (*&^ at the Church for a variety of issues (women's rights for one), you know the adage - once a Catholic. So what is wrong with being a Catholic and why did you say that? I am just curious - not being contentious, just found it somewhat presumptive. I think Catholics are pretty pluralistic in and of themselves - we share so many different views and opinons. In the bad old days in Canada, there was anti-Catholic discrimination - often by mentioning the ceremonies et al in the Church. I just do not think we need those comments in the year 2005! (and please don't assume something about me because of my religion, It smacks of racism and is highly discriminatory!)

And may I add that in a debate, one gets nowhere by insulting one's character, beliefs or religion. I just can't believe any knowledgable person would do that. I am far from perfect but I do try not to laugh at people.

pitbulliest
April 11th, 2005, 02:01 AM
cyberkitten..well put..and I agree as well. I'm catholic..although more spiritual than religious, and I barely go to church myself..but I just didn't see the point of that comment and it offended me..

Prin, if you decide to bring religion into a conversation regarding politics...just be careful..or don't do it at all...its a touchy subject..for me anyways..and as I can see, for others as well...

Prin
April 11th, 2005, 03:59 AM
What I meant is that the main reasons for a lot of laws and such are religion, and mainly Catholic-based because the majority of Canadians were and still are Roman Catholic. Now that more and more immigrants are moving here from countries other than Europe, the face of our country will be changing and having religious based laws will be exclusionary and inappropriate. I didn't mean to single out Catholics as a bad thing, they are just the main rulers around here, that's all.

And as for the "unbelievable" views, gay marriage is one, respect for women is another, and how about people fighting to wear traditional head scarves and such?

I'm sorry if I offended anyone...

The problem I have with gay marriage is the reasons for opposing it. I mean they were saying "Every child has a right to a mother and a father." Well, my parents weren't gay and I didn't have that right either. If heterosexuals are doing so poorly at marriage, why not let gay people take a stab at it and see if they do better? If they do, whatever children they may have will have two parents instead of just one. I think that's progress.. ;)

Lizzie
April 11th, 2005, 08:30 AM
CK--I agree that the new party should look at the provinces to see what worked/and didn't work. This is a completely natural way of reviewing your own qualities. We do it in our own lives, so why shouldn't our politicians.

Prin--IF the CPC were to win, they would not legislate on abortion. It's in their policy declaration, it's the general make up of our entire political system. NO party would step on the toes of women like that. Sure, there are members in each party that would like to make this change, but it would be political suicide to do anything like that. The CPC is more concerned with fiscal issues and wouldn't risk losing their chance to make a difference here simply by enforcing an abortion law. If you didn't watch the convention, then I suggest you check out the debates on abortion. Perhaps this will help relieve your view that they will legislate--they voted, and won on the fact that women and canadians do NOT want this.

So...please, if possible, refrain from suggesting that women will be forced to use backdoor medics to get abortions. This is simply so far from true. You are perfectly entitled to dislike particular parties, but it's certainly not appropriate to continue an assumption when the party has clearly, over and over and over again, said that they do not want any part of that issue. What does it take for people to let up?

chico2
April 11th, 2005, 08:36 AM
I think I'll stay out of this debate,I do definetly not have the inside knowledge some of you have.
I do however believe,religion is a very private matter,politics a very public one and the two should not mix.
Yes,I read the papers and watch the news and basically get my info that way like most average Canadians and yesterday saw glimpses of Harper at some sort of convention,the room crowded with anti-gay-marriage supporters.
I can understand peoples views on same-sex-marriage,although I don't agree.There is no need to change the definition of marriage,people get married because they love each other and want a life together whether they are a gay couple or not should not matter to anyone.
The issue of abortion keeps popping up and to me it's nobodys business other than the woman who for some reason has to make this fateful desicion.

So yes,Mr Harper worries me,any traces of the Alliance party worries me and the signs are there.
Western Canada is strongly opposing any steps towards changing the current 100yr old Anti-Cruelty law regarding our animals...for one. :sad:

CyberKitten
April 11th, 2005, 10:01 AM
I am on my break (such as it is, lol) and opted to check in as I gulp down my coffee- Starbucks capp actually (I can't spell capp a you know what :crazy: )

Re:Prin saying "I didn't mean to single out Catholics as a bad thing, they are just the main rulers around here, that's all."

I see what you mean but I know you are young so I'll just advise you to keep religion out of a debate. It can be hurtful and taken the wrong way. For many yrs in this country, Roman Catholics were discriminated against (My mom had the Ku Klux Klan burn a cross on her lawn when her dad helped bring in nuns to teach at a Catholic school for example) so when you cite Catholicism as somehow bad, it brings back lots of bad memories for me personally.

Those days are over - or so I thought! As for Catholics being the rulers, that is much much too simplistic and naieve. Read your history books again. It is true that Catholics form a small majority of Canadians - or at least those who cite a religion - something quite different from the US where 25% of the population is Catholic and they have a tough time to even elect a Catholic as President. You likely did not live thru the wonderous days of JFK.

Our history though is that Catholics - and others who were not WASPs - had to fight their way into political and economic power and I like to think we are now a much more egalitarian country. We are not there yet mind you but we are working on it. :)

It's true more and more people do not even attend Church or list a religion. And the fastest growing religion in Canada is Islam. I myself opt not to have prayer at public events (Had many debates about it in my own public life), arguing that there are other religions besides Christianity. I should know - my own family fits the name of Herberg's classic study called "Protestant, Catholic, Jew" perfectly!!

I gather you came up with religion because of the same sex and abortion issues. It may be true that people who subsribe to certain religious views oppose those two issues but many many Catholics do not. I am for example pro choice as are most of the people who attended my Catholic high school. I also have no problems with same sex marriage. They are issues of human rights, not religion.

Anyway - those are my thoughts for the day, :)