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Really need help--house training (long)

dogmelissa
April 8th, 2005, 12:11 AM
Ok, I can admit it, I probably screwed up pretty good with this dog. Regardless, I need and want to "fix" him. The sooner the better!!
Background: Cube was purchased at 6 wks of age (Valentines Day 2004) from Petland. He is a Maltese X Japanese Chin. The people who bought him (my girl friend and her husband) had (at the time) a 1.5 yr old daughter, and got the dog on a whim. Due to lack of time, lack of knowledge or lack of care (I don't know), they kept the dog in a small vari-kennel pretty much all day/night every day. He may or may not have been house-trained, I'm not sure. Regardless, in November of last year (he was 11 months old), he escaped from the vari-kennel while they were away, rooted around in the garbage and pooped on their bed. When husband got home, he freaked out and kicked the dog in the head, then chucked him back in his kennel. When my friend got home, she immediately noticed the dog's condition and talked to me, and we took him to the vet the next day. My vet and I tried to work with him, but he ended up losing his left eye in early January. He was also neutered and vaccinated at the time.
So. Now I've had this dog at my house since very late November, and we're having some house-training troubles. Mostly it's that I think because he was kept in a small crate his whole puppy-hood, he never was able to learn how NOT to soil his den, and so he does. Not only does he pee and poop in his crate (which is MUCH bigger than the vari-kennel) but he'll also walk through the poop and smear it everywhere. He gets a bath at least twice a week. Ok, so that part I'm not sure what to do with either. But my main thing is that when he's NOT in the kennel, he doesn't TELL me that he has to go. He'll just be sleeping, then stand up, take 3 steps and poop, or he'll get up to go for a drink, and then I find out later that he peed on the floor while he was up. There doesn't seem to be any consistent "place" that he goes. I've tried hanging a bell next to the door and making him ring it everytime he goes out (which he does only when I ask him to but never without me asking). I've tried tying him to me which just seems to result in both of us being frustrated and him not peeing or pooping *anywhere * inside OR out. When he goes out, I go with him most of the time, and give him his cue words (pee & poop), and when he does go (which happens about 40% of the time), he gets TONS of praise, lots of "good pee (or poop)" and as soon as he's done lots of pets/rubs/good boys. My big problem right now is him pooping in the house. We seem to have gotten the peeing (mostly) under control (at least when I'm home) but the pooping is a problem. Today (I think he ate something that didn't agree with him) he's pooped in the house twice, and ALSO pooped in the back when I got home from work AND once while we were out for a walk. Yesterday I put a puppy-pad down in his kennel, which he peed on during the day while I was at work, and I didn't change it cause I thought he'd be more likely to use it again if it smelled like the right place, and overnight, I think he spent more time SLEEPING on it, than peeing on it. Seriously, I woke up this morning to him laying on his soiled puppy pad. He does sleep in his bed some of the time, but I guess he gets hot at night and wants some place cooler, I'm not sure.

So what I'm dealing with here is a combination of me being an inadequate trainer and obviously having made lots of mistakes, and him having had 11 month of his life, prior to the 4 he's had with me, to learn some really nasty den-habits. Plus I'm concerned about the possibility of brain-damage. Yes he's learned other things, but this one thing seems to be something that he just can't get his little head around.

I'm thinking: litter-training, but since he's inconsistent about WHERE he goes in the house, how do I do that? Would putting him back in a small vari-kennel until he's reliable in the house help? I've taken him for basic training which he did pretty well at, and we have come a LONG ways in terms of his fear-responses (especially to men). He still has separation anxiety pretty bad, but I really need to concentrate on one thing at a time.

I know I'm going to have a suggestion of many things, but there's also a catch. Because of the vets bills for this dog (over $1000 in the last 3 months), I'm near broke. I'm barely making my regular bills, feeding myself and my pets. I can't afford a behaviourist/medication/dog-walkers or things like that. But I can't live with this dog like this, I'm nearing the end of my patience.

So I've come for help. Someone must have some suggestions that I haven't tried. Or just methods for making the things I've tried work better. Please.

Sorry for the length of this post, but thanks in advance for replies. You can also email me privately if you desire (melissa.c@shaw.ca)
Melissa

Eleni
April 8th, 2005, 07:15 AM
are you able to put him on a strict schedual.

my pup doesnt soil his crate, but he is inconsistent where he goes, and doesnt tell me when hes got to go.

over time I realised if i put him on an exact schedual for my dog its 2 am, 6 30 am, 9 am, 11 30 am, 3 pm, 5 pm, 8 pm and 10 30 pm

on that schedual my dog has no oppertunity for accidents in between usually, my thought being catch him just before hes got to go and bring him to where its appropriate and its been working beautifully.

however it doesnt lend itself well to a person who works, do you have someone who can walk him during the day??


I wish you luck, my suggestions are only what worked for me.

Kudos for taking on a pup who needed help, and even bigger kudos for sticking thru his training despite troubles and not taking him to a humane society or some such



Eleni

Trinitie
April 8th, 2005, 10:27 AM
That type of treatment to a poor, defenseless animal, makes me so angry. If only I could meet this person bat to face, I'd show him how it felt to be kicked in the head. :mad: :evil: :mad: Abuse against animals is something I CANNOT STAND!

Now, to you I say "well done!". You rescued this poor puppy from a situation that could have resulted in it's death. You should be very proud you rescued him.

You must treat this dog like a little puppy. Do not trust it alone, loose in the house. Take it out every 10 minutes, as you would an 8 week old puppy. It plays, take it out. It drinks, take it out. It eats, take it out. You get the idea. Eventually, the dog will learn that outside = potty breaks. Fuss up the dog each time it does good, and grumble quietly to yourself (never yell at the puppy, but I bet you knew that) when it makes a mistake.

He'll get it, it'll just take patience.

Lucky Rescue
April 8th, 2005, 11:34 AM
This poor dog has been abused and forced to live in it's own waste from day 1 - first at the puppymill, then the petstore, then at your horribly cruel friend's place.

Puppies are instinctively clean, and for ones raised normally, their mother first makes sure they are always clean, then a new owner will do the same so the puppies develop a real aversion to being in contact with their own waste.

Your puppy is very psychologically/emotionally damaged now and it could take a very long time and tons of patience to fix this problem. The fact that you aren't home all day is a big problem.

You must NOT keep him in a crate. YOu are reinforcing the living-in-filth that this baby has endured all his life.

Try gating him in the bathroom. Put some soiled papers on one side, to give him the idea that he can get away from his mess if he desires.

The instant you come home, clean up his papers and him. You want to try and get him UNused to lying in filth so he will come to dislike it. NEVER EVER scold or punish him for doing what humans taught him to do all his life.

If there was a chance of getting him a home with a knowledgeable and sympathetic person who is mostly home, I would do it.

I know you won't do it, but your friend's cowardly and brutal b/f should be reported for cruelty. Quite a prince she's got there. Lucky her. :rolleyes:

dogmelissa
April 8th, 2005, 12:28 PM
Eleni,

I'm doing my best to put (and keep) him on a schedule, but unfortunately, I do work outside my house, and I live alone. I am fairly close to home (10 minute drive) so by all rights I should be able to get home at noon to put him out, but that never seems to happen because I'm so busy at work. If I go away for lunch, then I end up staying late and that isn't good, either. :(

It's weird because *some* days he's perfectly clean in the kennel, *some* days he just pees and *some* days we have a full-out disaster, and it doesn't seem to matter whether he's peed and pooped in the morning or whether he ate... I can't quite figure out what happens on the days he's clean.

Anyhow, I will ask a few of my neighbours and perhaps the lady who works the show home in my community to see if someone could let him out during the day for me. I think everyone works, but maybe I can find *someone*.

Thanks very much for your suggestions.
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 8th, 2005, 12:37 PM
Trinitie,

I totally agree, and what's worse, is that he didn't show any remorse for it. I've been contemplating reporting him to the Humane Society, and I probably should have (or still should) but I really don't know if it'll do any good. If he gets a fine, it won't teach him anything, and if not, it won't stop him from going to Petland and getting another dog. What DOES scare me is the presence of the little girl--and I sent my friend *every* article I could find on the connection between animal abuse and spousal/child abuse. Unfortunately, because I don't think she's making the right choice in staying with him, and I can't tolerate thinking about him, I've had to let go of this friendship. When something happens to her or her child, I'll be there for her, but I can't stand by and just watch as it builds up to that. Ugh, too horrible.

Anyhow... dog-related.
I don't let the dog loose in the house--the best he gets is being on a leash but not having his leash attached to anything (when he's just been walked and I know both his bladder and bowels are empty). Most of the time he's leashed and either attached to me or a handy door knob, couch leg or other item that he can't drag around.
As for going out every 10 minutes... I try (well, every 20-30) when I'm home, but for the almost 9 hours a day I'm not home, that's useless.
And yes, I will admit that in times of frustration, I have yelled at the dog when he's messed in the house. And I'm sure that has set him back quite a ways, but on bad days when I've been really sweet to him, been out with him for 15 minutes trying to get him to go and then gave up and came in and he poops on the floor right away, the frustration gets the better of me. I've never hit him or otherwise punished him, though I did once put him outside (I have 3 steps out the door) a little too roughly and he fell down the stairs. I think I punished myself for THAT more than the punishment he got for messing. :(

Anyhow... thanks for the suggestion, and I will try to be more consistent with his "going out" times when I'm at home.

And if you know anyone who has a bat with a picture of a small dog on it, I'd be willing to give you dog-kicker's address. :)

Thanks,
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 8th, 2005, 12:49 PM
LuckyRescue,

I agree, and this house-training problem is just one more reason why I'd never get a dog from Petland. I had a multitude before, but this is just one. I haven't even stepped into a Petland on moral grounds in over 3 years.

As far as putting him in the bathroom, I've tried that. He was in there for almost a week; during which time he ripped the soiled (pee & poop) puppy-pad off the floor, tore it up as much as possible, smeared the poop on just about every square inch of the floor, and up the walls anywhere he felt like jumping, and apparently fell off the toilet lid or tried to jump out of the tub, slipped and hurt himself (he limped for 3 days). Plus he was extremely anxious because he couldn't hear the radio or see any daylight or see any of the cats--I think he felt like I'd abandoned him completely. I had left him with toys, the chews he likes, a blanket, everything that he needed... and he took about 20-25 minutes to calm down once I got home. Then I had to clean my whole bathroom, which was a nightmare.

The crate he's in now is a "medium" sized wire crate--3' wide & 4' long. It's designed for things like Chows & Keeshonds. I have about 1/4 of the kennel covered in puppy-pads (taped down *really* well), then he has a wicker basket with a towel for a bed (doing the laundry is much easier than when I had a blanket in there!), and I leave him a small amount of food in a bowl, and he has one of those rabbit water bottles. He has enough room to lay on the floor of the kennel and stretch out without getting into the puppy pad, he can lay in his bed (not big enough to stretch out in but close), but he chooses to lay directly on the soiled puppy pad. :( I really don't get it. Regardless, at least with him in the crate, he can see the sunlight, see the cats when they get up on the bed or sit in the window, he can hear the radio, and any messes he makes are contained and my clean-up is MUCH easier.

As far as getting him a different home, I think I'm out of luck there, plus I don't really want to since I've spent so much time (and money) on him that to give him to someone else would mean it was all a waste. I'm comitted to sticking this out, I just would like to not have to clean so much, so that I could spend more time doing things that HE likes, like walking or perhaps get him into agility--but I don't have the time for that right now.

I probably should still report this guy, even though I think it's useless. I've just been so busy cleaning up the mess that he made out of his dog to get in touch with the Humane Society. Do you think there's a point where it's too late to report someone?

Thanks very much, and any other suggestions are *very* welcome!
Melissa

Eleni
April 8th, 2005, 01:40 PM
unfortunatly your dog has been abused, there wont be any easy way to get him trained, I think time and patience and understanding would go a LONG way with your pup.

my mom once adopted a dog who was abused. and she was told NEVER raise her voice to the dog.

a dog who is already reluctant to trust would be so badly effected by being yelled at.

fast forward a few years the dog trusts my mom and loves my mom and my mom got a boyfriend, the boyfriend yelled at the dog, the dog regressed completly accidents in the house and cowering when people came near her, it was horrible, when my mom left that relationship it took that dog more then a year to come around again.


its so horrible that a dog ever has to go thru so much.

please even tho you my get frustrated dont raise your voice to the dog.

Eleni

BMDLuver
April 8th, 2005, 01:47 PM
With him in the crate he will always be this way. This story is heartbreaking and if I were closer I would definitely be doing something about this situation. Right now his life is exactly the same as if her were in a puppymill. I'm sorry that sounds harsh but it's a reality. I have brought in more mill dogs with the same problems and it has taken weeks of constant vigilence to get them to the point of only a few accidents per day in the house. I understand that you have put a lot of money into this dog but I think you owe it to him to show him that mankind is not cruel and rehome him. If you would like help finding him a rescue who will address his meriad of problems then do not hesitate to ask. They will work with him and get him to the point of being ready for adoption to a home that will have more time for him.

I appreciate the fact that you have helped this dog but now he needs more help than you are able to give him. Please do the right thing and have him rehomed.

mafiaprincess
April 8th, 2005, 02:43 PM
In putting the dog in the bathroom, I'd babygate the door, so my dog could see light. I find a lot of dogs I know get anxious in small rooms with completly closed doors.

kandy
April 8th, 2005, 05:14 PM
I agree that since this dog has learned to sleep in his own waste, the crate thing will never work with him. It might be easier for you on the cleanup end, but it is just reinforcing what he has already learned. You first need to 'unlearn' the sleeping in waste thing and then work on the house training. Is there anyplace else in your house that you can put him that restricts his space? I have heard of a product that is supposed to encourage dogs to go in a specific place - here is a link to the product:

www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=599&N=2001+113514

I have never used the product, but I would think that it might be worth a try and its not pricey.

I feel so bad for this dog and I would certainly turn in the *astard if it was me!!!

puppup11
April 10th, 2005, 07:23 PM
Is it possible that he sleeps on the puppy pads because he thinks it's a better location? You could try swapping the location of the puppy pads and the bed and see if that makes a difference.

Also perhaps decreasing the amount he's fed before you leave in the morning and not leaving any food when you go might help you regulate the pooping better so that you can time yourself to be home at the times he has to go out the most. At his age and size I think he should be ok with one meal per day (of the recommended total daily quantity of course, I don't mean to suggest feeding him less food unless he's getting too much now, which is something that definitely would make housetraining more difficult) and maybe just a very small amount in the morning but not enough to make him need to go poop a lot while you're gone. Ice can be left in his kennel so that he doesn't get thirsty but doesn't consume more than necessary when he's confined, and of course give him full water privileges when you are home and ready to take him outside. This way you're not really changing the amount of food and water but regulating when it comes in (and therefore when it comes out). If you come home for lunch you can give him water then too if you're worried he might need it, but if he mostly sleeps when you're gone and the house is cool it's very doubtful that he would become dehydrated.

And don't give up when you take him outside. Start noticing when he eats and when you see him drink a lot and notice how long it takes before he has to go poop or pee after these things (exercise will make it happen faster). Once his food and water intake becomes regulated it will be easier to anticipate when he has to go out and therefore easier to train him.

I think what you're doing with the crate is ok. This isn't actually crate training, but just confining to a small "room" which happens to be a crate since it's so much bigger than him.

dogmelissa
April 10th, 2005, 10:32 PM
BMDLuver,
Thanks, but I wasn't looking for advice on what to do with the dog. I have already decided to keep him, despite the money, time and extreme frustration it's put me through. Despite the things that I have given up for him, I'm going to stick him out. He's been through enough in his life to have earned a permanent home, even if it's not perfect. But then again, no one is perfect, so I can't and don't expect that from him.
I was asking for advice on how to train him, and obviously you don't want to offer that. You have no idea the progress he's made in every other area of his life in the few short months I've had him. I refuse to give up on him because he hasn't learned to be house-trained yet.
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 10th, 2005, 10:33 PM
mafiaprincess,
I appreciate the suggestion, but I still don't like the idea of cleaning my entire bathroom. He's gotten better in the crate and I think I'll stick with that.
Thanks,
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 10th, 2005, 10:39 PM
kandy,
I am already using a similar product (different brand, same idea) in combination with puppy pads which are supposed to contain some of the same scent in order to teach him where it's ok to go to the bathroom when I'm not around or not able to focus on him. We've had some success, but it'll take time.
As for crating "never" working, I disagree. Yes, he needs to un-learn sleeping in his own waste, but he needs to learn this hand-in-hand (or paw-in-paw??) with being house-trained. We have made some progress this past week (only a couple messes in the house), and I refuse to give up hope that he can NEVER be trained. He's just slower than I'd like him to be, but he WILL get it eventually.
"Thanks for the link. The product I am using is called "Out!"--I can't find a link to it, but I'll let you know how it works.
Thanks,
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 10th, 2005, 10:53 PM
puppup11,
I thought it might be that he sleeps on them because he gets too hot during the day (or night) and so during the day now, I leave the window (basically above him) open a little. Not sure if that's helping. He is also going to get a haircut next weekend, so that might help, too. I did shift the position of the pad so that he can stretch out on the floor of the kennel better and so it'll be a little more difficult for him to lay on the pad, as well. Again, not sure if that's helping yet.
Generally because of the fact that he's a small dog, and more of a muncher than a gulper when it comes to food, I'm not comfortable only feeding him once a day. He doesn't eat a lot during the day, but I will try to leave him less during the day and more in the evening and overnight. At least if he has to go during the night, he wakes me up. He doesn't have that option during the day. :( I have been trying to leave him *less* water during the day, but on days when he's run out of water, he'll literally spend 5 minutes at the water bowl when he gets out of the kennel at night. I'm not sure if he barks or whines or what. My house is kept relatively cool, but again, he's got quite a bit of fur right now and he gets *very* excited when I come home, so he works up quite a heat I'm sure. Not sure what he does during the day, but I would expect it's mostly sleeping. That's mostly what he does when I *am* home.

Thanks for the support re: crate. That was my logic on getting him such a large one as well. And eventually, once I get him litter-trained, there is enough room in the crate for a small litter box in case he can't wait till I get home. I know based on his age he *should* be able to wait that long--and most of the time he does overnight--so it's just a matter of teaching him that it's in his best interest to wait.
Thanks again!
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 10th, 2005, 11:00 PM
Eleni
I know... I know I shouldn't raise my voice to him... and I've really really been working on that the last couple of weeks, and I think it's better. And I've always felt bad when I did lose it and yell at him. I know he's not doing it on purpose, he just doesn't know how to tell me what's going on with him.
He's amazingly good at trusting. I have absolutely no one to thank more than my bf for that. He was just horrible around strangers at first, especially men, and I didn't blame him one iota. Now, since he's been spending so much time around my bf, he barely even gets ruffled around strange men. He is still fairly easily startled, and will bark at a man until he realizes that it's someone he knows and can trust, but he's SO much better. Trust doesn't seem to be his issue. I think if I had someone at the house, or took him somewhere, where he got kicked or hit physically corrected in anyway, that he would regress terribly. And obviously I don't take him places where that might happen.

Thanks again,
Melissa

puppup11
April 11th, 2005, 09:01 AM
Hi,
Generally speaking, dogs should not be given free rein to their food to eat whenever they want to (unless they are too skinny and need to put on weight). There's just no good reason to do so. Not only does this make it difficult to housetrain, but it causes other training issues, pickiness, and overweight dogs. He's probably just munching now because he's not really that hungry, if you started feeding him even twice a day, put it down for 10 - 15 minutes and whatever's not eaten by then pick it up, after a day or two he will learn to eat when you feed him and not just when he feels like it. Yes he will have to get hungry to start eating on a schedule but he certainly won't starve himself, he'll start eating when you feed him when he gets hungry enough. Make sure you are following the recommendations for appropriate feeding quantities for your dog's size and feeding a good quality food, feeding too much or the wrong kind of food can cause many other health problems besides just being overweight (not to mention doubling or tripling the amount of waste!). When you control the food it will also help to give him confidence in you as the leader and food provider, which is especially important with a dog who may lack confidence because of their bad experiences. On my bag of dog food it says that a small dog should be fed once a day and a larger dog twice or more per day, so being small is actually in your favor. I don't know the whole situation so perhaps this is an exception to the rule for reasons I don't know, but I know it would have been extremely difficult to housetrain my dog if I let her eat throughout the day.

kandy
April 11th, 2005, 04:54 PM
I am so glad that he's doing better with the house-training. We have a pet product called "Out" around here too, but it's for getting out pet stains - it kind of threw me for a second when I read your reply. I hope it works for you and I think it is great that you're ready to keep working with him. He just might be a slow learner - my mom had a Papillion (probably spelled wrong) that never got fully house-trained. She spoiled him rotten and if it was wet or snowy outside, he would just refuse to go outside. If you carried him out and set him down, he would just stand there with two feet at a time in the air (pretty funny to watch!! :D ) but he never would go if it wasn't nice and dry outside. I think I read somewhere in the replies that toys are worse - this dog could've been the poster child for 'slow-learners'. Hehe! Keep up the good work! :thumbs up

dogmelissa
April 11th, 2005, 08:26 PM
I appreciate your thoughts/experiences on this one, but this dog already has enough problems. He's skinny as it is, and I'm sure he has a tiny tummy--there's no way he could put an entire day's ration into his belly at one go, probably not at 2, and I'm not around enough to do more than that. Generally he eats most in the evenings when I'm around, because he doesn't seem to like to eat when I'm not at home. So he gets about 3/4 of what he should eat in the evening/overnight and about 1/4 during the day when I'm not home. The only other food-item that goes into him during the day is a bit of canned food which I smear on a knobby nylabone-type chew to keep him busy for a little while. That's maybe 1 tbsp worth of food, though.
So I don't know. I suppose I can try eliminating all food during the day, but I don't see how it's going to make a bit of difference. Today I left the regular amount and when I got home (late) he'd peed on his bed in the kennel (not on the puppy pad, but he'd scrunched it up in the corner so that could be why), and so I put him out. Went out with him to clean up the poops, and he peed (lots of praise). I tried to get him to poop but decided not to push him too much as all I had to do was change my clothes and we were going for a walk anyhow. Let him back in, was in the process of changing my pants when he calmly came back into the bedroom, and started pooping. Didn't circle, didn't sniff, didn't ring the bell that he *always* rings before he goes out, just started pooping. As I was standing right there, I was able to grab him and get him out, but it still meant poop on my floor to clean up. *sigh*

Melissa

dogmelissa
April 11th, 2005, 08:35 PM
I am so glad that he's doing better with the house-training. We have a pet product called "Out" around here too, but it's for getting out pet stains - it kind of threw me for a second when I read your reply. I hope it works for you and I think it is great that you're ready to keep working with him. He just might be a slow learner - my mom had a Papillion (probably spelled wrong) that never got fully house-trained. She spoiled him rotten and if it was wet or snowy outside, he would just refuse to go outside. If you carried him out and set him down, he would just stand there with two feet at a time in the air (pretty funny to watch!! :D ) but he never would go if it wasn't nice and dry outside. I think I read somewhere in the replies that toys are worse - this dog could've been the poster child for 'slow-learners'. Hehe! Keep up the good work! :thumbs up

Kandy,
Thanks. There seems to be good days and bad days. Today was *almost* a good day--peed on his bed (he'd scrunched up the puppy pad), but no poops. But then just when I thought he was going to have a GREAT day, the crap hit the fan--almost literally. *sigh*
Yes, slow-learner he is, but I seriously think he has brain damage or just a learning disability or *something* that's just not quite normal. I've got a puppy-pad down in the kitchen that he walks past everytime he gets up for water, no matter where he is (exception being in the living room as I have another water bowl there), and today he walked right past it and pooped on the rug right next to me. I dunno. What I need is a way to secure a litter box to the plastic-tray bottom of the kennel. Then he can't mess up the puppy-pad, can't spill the litter (I'll start him out with just a tiny bit), and doesn't have any excuse for peeing in his bed. Actually, I've gone to plan B with his bedding, too. It's now not in a bed, I've taped a towel to the bottom of the kennel.

As for the Out!... yes, they have that for stain-removal here as well, but this was the most reasonably-priced puppy-training-aid spray they had. All the others were also store-brand and generally I don't trust them as much until I've tried the product in general--and since this stuff doesn't seem to be making much difference I dunno. As a stain-remover/odor remover I use something called Petzyme. I believe it's a Petsmart-brand, but I used to use Nature's Miracle and the cats kept going back to that spot, and they don't with this, so I use this now. I buy it in the gallon jug size and use it for everything--I even put it in the laundry with the pet-blankets!!

Anyways, now that the dog's bladder AND bowels are empty, I suppose I should take him for a walk.
Thanks for the support--and if your mom gets another small dog, suggest she litter train it--supposedly it's just like paper or outdoor-training, just uses a box as the "right" place to go. Of course getting a fresh start and not having to work with a partially-wrongly-trained dog would probably make it a lot easier. Oh well. Patience is a virtue and I'm earning it!!

Thanks,
Melissa

aussiemedogs
April 11th, 2005, 09:12 PM
You may want to try keeping him on a leash when you are home and *slip* yourself into the leash, this way if you see him squat he is already attached to you and you can just run out the door. Usually a quick ahh ahh will stop them from dispursing all over the floor then once outside do your walk and again the praise when he has accomplished something.

Lizzie
April 11th, 2005, 09:14 PM
I appreciate that you want to do what you can to keep this dog in your home, but sometimes we have to face the reality that perhaps you/we may not always be able to provide the best home.

In this instance, while you have the drive and ambition to be the best home for your little guy, no matter what you do, it's impossible as you work all day.

Out of love for the little guy, don't you think finding him a home where someone is there all day to love and cuddle with him would be better? happier?

Just try to put yourself in his shoes/paws. If you had been in an abusive home, then lifted out to safety, and then left alone all day by youself, dont you think you'd maybe prefer to be in a home with someone home all day? I know I would.

This dog has social, emotional and perhaps behaviour problems that cannot be solved from 5-10pm each day. He/she needs full time companionship to recover...just like anyone else recovering from abuse.

Anyways, I do appreciate and applaud your desire, however I have to agree with BMD (who might I add is very involved in pet rescue and knows her stuff).

Let this baby have a forever home where someone is there 24/7...

puppup11
April 12th, 2005, 08:55 AM
Would it be possible for you to change your clothes first, then take him out of the kennel? Peeing happens fairly quickly after becoming active, but pooping takes some exercise first until they feel like doing it, so it sounds like what happened was that the point at which he'd had enough exercise to go poop was the point at which you were in changing your clothes. Or I'm not sure what procedure you're following when you first take him out when you get home, but just standing around probably won't get him to poop. If you try taking him out and doing some quick runs up and down the yard for a minute or two, then stand around for a minute, you might be able to time it better so he'll go outside. Because you know that by the time you get home, if he hasn't done it in his kennel, he does have to go for sure, so it's worth waiting outside for.

BMDLuver
April 12th, 2005, 10:23 AM
What I need is a way to secure a litter box to the plastic-tray bottom of the kennel. Then he can't mess up the puppy-pad, can't spill the litter (I'll start him out with just a tiny bit), and doesn't have any excuse for peeing in his bed. Actually, I've gone to plan B with his bedding, too. It's now not in a bed, I've taped a towel to the bottom of the kennel.

Secure the litter box to the sides by two sides. Puch holes in the litterbox, in line with the cage wires. Use those tie offs to then secure to the sides of the cage where it tucks in. Make sure to punch two holes side by side and secure the fasteners through and out around the cage wire so that there is no plastic bits sticking out for the dog to chew on. This will keep it in place.

amber416
April 12th, 2005, 11:17 AM
As far as getting him a different home, I think I'm out of luck there, plus I don't really want to since I've spent so much time (and money) on him that to give him to someone else would mean it was all a waste.


Not at all! You saved this dog's life! That is hardly a waste. It is not your fault if your lifestyle is not suitable to what this poor dog now needs. Many people have to work and they work long hours and cannot always leave for lunch. However, I think needs would be the key word here. I agree completely with Lizzie, this dog has been abused and needs to be somewhere where he can be worked with consistenly throughout the day, not just in the evenings. What if his accidents never stop? At what point do you decide he can't spend his entire life in a crate? I admire your persistence in wanting to keep him and train him but i would also advise you to look at this from the dog's perspective and think about looking for another option. I want to echo everyone else in saying great job and thank you for rescuing this poor guy from the horrible environment he was in and also for dropping the friend. That takes a lot of strength.... i have heard of people who will just stand by while a friend allows or even commits animal abuse while saying "she's my friend and there's nothing i can do" which is unacceptable and cowardly. Good luck.... there should be more people like you!

dogmelissa
April 13th, 2005, 12:47 AM
Lizzie,
As I've said before... I'm not going to re-home this dog. He's had enough trauma in his life to be forced to go through the process of being shuffled into foster care or a shelter and then out to a new home, having to adapt to a new environment, new people, learn to trust all over again. No thanks. I would't want to go through that and I'm not going to put him through it.

As for him "needing" a home with 24/7 care... there are generally 3 types of homes where people are home 24/7: a) stay-at-home-parents with children generally too young to go to school b) retired people and c) people who work at home. Yes, there are others, but I'm GENERALIZING and categorizing MOST people into these 3 areas. Of these, what's a suitable home for my dog; a) add a non-house-trained dog to a home which is probably hectic enough so that he gets ignored even more than he does now. b) like taking a hyper puppy to a senior's home, not what I would consider a smart move. This dog is not for a person who has limited mobility, can't bend down, can't tolerate being jumped on, scratched, bitten, etc. c) work at home people who are actually working won't have time to give the dog the attention it deserves during the day, either. If a person works 8 hours, of that, they're still only going to have the same 5-6 hours of time during the day to spend with the dog, it just might not be in the evenings as it is for me.

Besides... consider the alternative to what he has now: even without the true abuse, he WAS living in a house where he was kept in a tiny vari-kennel for up to 20 hours a day (or more!), got walks maybe once a week, sometimes less. Had to tolerate a screaming child, arguments between the people living in the home, never got brushed/groomed except when he was terribly matted, was suffering from chronic ear infections due to food allergies (which was never dealt with), didn't get his vaccines, didn't get neutered... and then the one day he got a little bit of freedom and did what came naturally to him, he had to suffer through what I know had to have been pretty severe pain followed by the loss of his eye. And in the midst of it, the only home he'd ever known was uprooted and he was dumped with this strange new person who asked him to do things like "sit" and "down" and who wants him to ring this stupid bell before he goes outside. Yes it was traumatic, and no I'm likely not the best home for him, but given the alternative, I think he's probably better off with me than having to go through a home that might not be willing to have the patience he needs.

So please, anyone... don't recommend I re-home this dog. It's not helping the problem. It's a bandaid solution, not a cure.

Melissa

dogmelissa
April 13th, 2005, 01:03 AM
What if his accidents never stop? At what point do you decide he can't spend his entire life in a crate?

Amber,
What if his accidents never stop? They will, that is why I'm here. That being said, if it takes me a year to figure out what method of training works for him, so be it. I've resigned myself to having to clean up messes, and I'll deal with it. And if he always poops or pees on the floor... oh well... I have a cat who often decides she's too good for the litter box and I have never figured out her triggers. And I've had her for 6 years. Do I love her any less? No. Have I given up on her? No. Have I sent her to a new home because I couldn't stop her from having "accidents"? NO!!! And I won't do it for this dog.

At what point do I decide he can't spend his entire life in a crate? You tell me. I don't see any problem with a dog spending 8 hours a day in a crate, given that it provides him with enough space to move around as he desires, stretch out, play with a select few toys, has water and a small amount of food, prevents the cats from bothering him, has a litter box for when he has to "go" and I'm not home, and then when I *am* home he gets to go for walks, play with different toys, chase the cats, eat lots of good food, learn things, sometimes play with other dogs, gets to go camping, hiking, for car rides, go on visits to other people's houses where he plays with kids and gets lots of treats... what's wrong with this life?? As opposed to being stressed because there are people walking around outside and you're not sure if they're coming to the door, if they're going to invade your territory, because there are other animals outside, because there are strange cars moving around, having to defend your food from the cats, having all your toys taken by the cats, etc etc etc... and then likely being ignored more when I'm home? I'd rather provide the dog with a "den".. a safe place from the world than have him loose in the house insecure and worried about things that he can see outside.

And I've known lots of dogs who lived in a crate all day every day and did so extremely happily. I've also known lots of dogs with separation anxiety who never got better because their owners didn't give them a safe place where they could just "be" and didn't have to worry. And then there are the extremely lucky few dogs who get to have the run of the house and are very well behaved and don't have any emotional problems. And I'm betting that none of the dogs that fit into the latter category were abused and neglected for the first 8 months of their lives and behaved that way after only 4 months in a new home. I'd bet that those dogs were well-treated and well-trained and loved right from the moment they were born, and THAT makes all the difference in the world.

Please stop suggesting I re-home the dog. This answer is NOT solving the problems. It's not helping me train the dog.. it's not going to help ANYONE train the dog, and shuffling him from home to home is not the answer. Just because someone is home 24/7 does NOT mean they are a better pet-owner than I am.

Thanks, but I need helpful advice.
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 13th, 2005, 01:07 AM
Secure the litter box to the sides by two sides. Puch holes in the litterbox, in line with the cage wires. Use those tie offs to then secure to the sides of the cage where it tucks in. Make sure to punch two holes side by side and secure the fasteners through and out around the cage wire so that there is no plastic bits sticking out for the dog to chew on. This will keep it in place.

Thanks!! Now if I can just figure out how to put holes in a litter box with a screwdriver and a hammer, I'll have this done in no time!! And it won't be soon enough, he managed to spill every tiny fleck of litter out of the (unsecured) litter box today. Good thing it vacuums up easily!!

Also... what kind of litter is most recommended?? I bought some pine pellets tonight, hopefully that'll be easier to clean up if he makes a mess, and it's the closest thing I could find to what I think the "dog" litter is, and I've also read it recommended on a couple sites. Thought I'd ask here. I will NOT be using the clumping cat litter again, that was too much of a disaster when spilled.

Thanks,
Melissa

BMDLuver
April 13th, 2005, 08:04 AM
Also... what kind of litter is most recommended?? I bought some pine pellets tonight, hopefully that'll be easier to clean up if he makes a mess, and it's the closest thing I could find to what I think the "dog" litter is, and I've also read it recommended on a couple sites. Thought I'd ask here. I will NOT be using the clumping cat litter again, that was too much of a disaster when spilled.



http://www.showpaps.com/litterbox.htm

This link provides several different sources for the wood pellet choice. They are at the bottom of the page.

Lizzie
April 13th, 2005, 08:32 AM
Melissa:

1--A rescue group will NOT place this dog in a home that is unable to provide it with the time and attention it needs as you have suggested. Rescues are extremely thorough and ensure that each home is examined to the nines. Home visits, family interviews, the works. Okay, you want to keep the dog, but don't suggest that a rescue would give it a less good home. A rescue would ensure this dog goes to a home where someone is with him/her all day.

2--How is this dog going to get over his/her anxieties by living in a crate for 8 hours a day? I can't understand for the life of me why you don't see a problem with this but you do see a problem with rehoming the dog through a reputable rescue (like one of the many that frequent this site). Yes, I beleive this dog has gone through a lot, but the longer he lives in a crate, void of human interaction for 8 hours a day, the longer he will endure the struggles that life has thrown at him.

That's all I want to say. Regardless of where he/she lives, I do sincerely hope that everything works out for this pup and that he/she is able to one day lead a normal, happy-go-lucky, doggie life.

amber416
April 13th, 2005, 11:50 AM
and then likely being ignored more when I'm home?



why in the world would you ignore the dog more when you were home in that scenario??? Maybe i misunderstood but that doesn't make any sense.

Also, I re-read my post to you and it seemed very polite. Was there something you took offense to? Perhaps you are just frusterated with the situation but I didn't appreciate the "Thanks but i need helpful advice" comment. I didn't just post because i was bored. I was trying to be helpful, apparently it wasn't what you wanted to hear--as is often the case with advice-- but it was helpful for the dog. I only have the dog's best interest in mind. I have an aunt who rescued an abused dog. That was ten years ago and he still is not trained. They even brought a dog trainer into their home to help. So don't say the accidents for certainty will stop because abuse is a serious thing and it can leave lasting effects, although i hope for your sake they do.

And i do not neccessarily have any issues with a dog (a dog that has not been abused, that does need consistent work and stablitly throughout the day as well as the evenings) being crated for eight hours a day. However, I for some reason thought your dog was in a crate at night too, because I thought you had mentioned the dog not getting run of the house ever at this point. That becomes 16 hours a day. Sorry if i misunderstood, though.

Anyway, i realize that you are looking for specific advice and that you have opted not to rehome the dog. I respect that, i was just responding to your post. Good luck with this poor guy.

puppup11
April 13th, 2005, 05:19 PM
Would it maybe simplify things a bit if you tried doing one form of "potty training" at a time? Right now, you're trying to get him to go in his litter box during the day, and outside at night. Since you know you won't be home during the day and therefore it's impossible to train him to go outside consistently right now, maybe you should think about just litter box training by itself and move to the outside thing after he gets that down. I don't think there's any way you'll be able to actually get through to him that going in the litter box is acceptable if every time he does it you're not there to praise him, and when he doesn't do it (goes in the house) he gets sent outside. If he can learn to go to his litter box when you're at home, it should be fairly easy for him to remember to go there when you're not rather than soiling his crate. That would solve some of your problems and then you could move to training him for outside later.

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 12:37 AM
Would it maybe simplify things a bit if you tried doing one form of "potty training" at a time? Right now, you're trying to get him to go in his litter box during the day, and outside at night. Since you know you won't be home during the day and therefore it's impossible to train him to go outside consistently right now, maybe you should think about just litter box training by itself and move to the outside thing after he gets that down. I don't think there's any way you'll be able to actually get through to him that going in the litter box is acceptable if every time he does it you're not there to praise him, and when he doesn't do it (goes in the house) he gets sent outside. If he can learn to go to his litter box when you're at home, it should be fairly easy for him to remember to go there when you're not rather than soiling his crate. That would solve some of your problems and then you could move to training him for outside later.

See now THAT was helpful advice. I hadn't considered that. Ok.... trip to the store is in order to buy another large litter box & some more pellet litter.

That being said... how do I correlate the litter-training (no outdoor training) with times when we're out walking. 'Cause of course he pees & poops while we're out walking, so do I praise him, or do I eliminate walks/outdoor visits until he understands the litter box concept?

Thanks!
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 12:50 AM
1--A rescue group will NOT place this dog in a home that is unable to provide it with the time and attention it needs as you have suggested. Rescues are extremely thorough and ensure that each home is examined to the nines. Home visits, family interviews, the works. Okay, you want to keep the dog, but don't suggest that a rescue would give it a less good home. A rescue would ensure this dog goes to a home where someone is with him/her all day.

I'm not saying a rescue organization wouldn't be able to find him a good home. What I'm saying is that it would require re-homing the dog TWICE; first into a foster home, then into a permanent home. That, and it doesn't solve the dogs problems, it just transfers them to someone else. I'm asking for help on how to FIX his problems (or at least learn to live with them) not for help on how to transfer them to someone else.


2--How is this dog going to get over his/her anxieties by living in a crate for 8 hours a day? I can't understand for the life of me why you don't see a problem with this but you do see a problem with rehoming the dog through a reputable rescue (like one of the many that frequent this site). Yes, I beleive this dog has gone through a lot, but the longer he lives in a crate, void of human interaction for 8 hours a day, the longer he will endure the struggles that life has thrown at him.

I don't expect that he WILL get over his anxieties simply by living in a crate. I'm saying that by keeping him in a crate, the only anxiety he has to deal with is the one of being left alone; a problem which I am ALSO seeking a solution for, but can't at the moment, spare the time or the money to solve. I've asked my boss, I can't take the dog to work. I've considered working from home, but it's just not possible at this point in my career. I've considered medications in order to de-sensitize him, combined with taking time off work to ease the process (gradually increasing the time he's left alone), but I can't afford medications, and I don't get enough vacation time to get him much past the 3-4 hour mark (assuming that all goes according to plans that have been suggested by many, including my vet), plus then I'd be sacrificing an *actual* vacation, where I would be taking him with me and spending the time WITH him, instead of trying to spend it away from him.

I'm attempting to solve only one problem at a time, and if I can solve the house-training issue, I'll be more likely to allow him to be loose (or at least have greater freedom) in the house than he has right now. Maybe. That would depend on his behaviour and whether or not I could trust him not to irritate the cats, my neighbours, etc. However, I refuse to spend an hour a day searching my house for the locations of where he relieved himself and attempting to remove the smell and stains from my carpet, furniture and/or bed simply because some people think that keeping him in a crate is bad for his separation anxiety.

I appreciate your stance on this, but to me, it's not a solution. There's this wonderful thing called an opinion; you're allowed to have yours and I'm allowed to have mine, and I can choose to take your advice or not. In this case, I choose not to.

Melissa

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 01:13 AM
Amber,
1. The dog would likely be ignored more in a scenario where he was loose in the house because it would take me a significantly longer amount of time to locate and clean up the messes that he made while I was away. The (very few) days that I tried him loose in the house (even when I was only gone 1/2 hour), it took him a disturbingly large amount of time to settle down once I did get home, compared to what it took him even the first day I put him in the crate and left him for 8 hours. And the only way I've figured out to get him to settle down is to completely ignore him--which is also next to impossible when you have a dog loose in the house who is jumping, barking, nipping at your feet, knocking into your legs while you stand anywhere, climbing (or trying to climb) up on your lap if you sit. In the kennel he barks and gets excited when he hears the door unlock, but by the time I've got my shoes off and got into the room with the kennel, he's quiet. Still physically crazy, but responsive to "sit" and "wait" as he knows that he doesn't get to come out until he is sitting quietly. He only gets ignored for a matter of minutes this way, rather than the 1/2 hour or more it takes when he's loose or even just tied up.

2. I took offense to the fact that I'd responded to 2 other posts stating that re-homing the dog is NOT helping me figure out how to train the dog, it simply passes off the problem to someone else. Sure, someone else may be able to fix him, but I'm trying to save those homes for the dogs who have owners who aren't willing to figure them out. I'm *attempting* to solve this problem, and I'm asking for solutions, not cover-ups. I'm sorry if I seemed harsh, but I was simply stating that your advice is not workable for me. The joy of being a person asking for advice is the option to use or discard any advice given. If one giving advice can't tolerate their advice not being taken, then they shouldn't be giving advice at all.

3. Yes, some abused dogs never get trained. I'm not trying to predict the future. I'd *really* like to get this dog trained, and I'm here trying to find ways to do so. If I can't get him trained, and I exhaust every possible form of training including trainers, behaviourists, medication, etc, then that's fine. At least I'll be able to clean up his messes knowing that I tried everything and that he simply was too traumatized/physically- or mentally harmed by his previous life to have the capacity to learn. However, I refuse to accept that answer without having exhausted all possible solutions. And re-homing the dog does NOT solve his problems. It simply removes them from my life. It's like amputating your arm because your wrist didn't mend after 6 weeks in a cast.

4. The dog is kept in his crate at night, simply because when he's NOT in his kennel, he seems to be incapable of signalling that he needs to go to the bathroom. When he is in the crate, which is kept 6" from my bed, he simply stands up and whines (directly in my ear!) and I get up and put him out. The point I'd like to get to is one in which he is only in the crate during the day--better if I can simply leave the door open and he can choose to be in there or not--and sleep wherever he chooses at night. However, since I don't have the time, or patience, or desire, to search my house top to bottom in search of where he pooped and/or peed every morning before work, he is kept in the crate at night. Given that 95% of the time that he spends in the crate, especially at night, is sleeping, I don't feel that bad about it. And no matter what you say, I guarantee that you can't make me feel guilty about it, because you are not the person who has to find, clean up & ultimately pay (in time, materials and carpet) for the messes that he makes when he's loose in the house. I appreciate your sentiments on this, but until you are living my life, you don't have the perspective to tell me what is a solution. I have to choose things that I think can work, given what I have available, and I just don't have the finances to re-carpet & re-furnish my home as well as pay for professional cleaning services to clean everyday.

Thanks for the good-luck wishes, I can only hope that luck will help us find a solution we can all live with.
Melissa

badger
April 14th, 2005, 07:40 AM
Sorry if someone has already brought this up, but have you tried changing his food (I agree that there should be no food in the crate and regular meal times)? Maybe there is something in what he eats now that is 'overstimulating' his gut - grains, for instance. Just a thought.

puppup11
April 14th, 2005, 07:46 AM
Well, you definitely wouldn't want to correct him for going outside, and not taking him for walks probably wouldn't be a good idea either because he needs his exercise especially being locked up all day. Probably what you want to try to do is get him to go in his litter box as much as you can, so that might mean waiting until he tries to go in the house after you get home so that you can immediately put him in his litter box and then praise him for doing it there, then going for your walk. If he goes outside at this point it might be the least confusing thing to just ignore it. The main thing is just catching him every single time he tries to go in the house so you can correct him to go in his litter box.

Eleni
April 14th, 2005, 07:54 AM
even one of those puppy pee pads underneath the litter might encourage him to go in the litter, they ahve a scent most dogs take too and decide to go on the pad.

might be worth a try


Eleni

Lizzie
April 14th, 2005, 08:22 AM
Please keep in mind that if he uses litter and is trained to go inside your home, he will likely go inside anyone's home.

adplater
April 14th, 2005, 11:18 AM
Here's a great website on how to litter train dogs

http://www.kturby.com/litter/litter.htm

I use the newspaper pellets since it's convenient to pick up.

I secure the litter in the wire kennel (36 x 24) by using plastic vice grips / quick clamps purchased at the dollar store. I clamp 2 sides of the litter box and it seems to be stable. The clamps make it easy to remove and clean the litter as soon as I get home.

For the most part, Rosie will use the litter box during the day when she is in her kennel - she still sometimes pees on her blanket which I am attributing to her being excited when she hears us come home.

I will admit, Rosie is not completely house-trained - we're still working on her "have to go pee" signal. I tried bells at front door, doesn't work, I've also set timers, but life always seems hectic at our house and I forget to re-set the timer to take her back outside at the appointed time.

For some reason, Rosie doesn't associate that when I'm home she can use her litter box, so if she has to go and I'm not understanding the "have to go pee" signal, she will go and hide and pee within the house somewhere. Totally my fault, but I do tell her in a very quiet, disappointed, shaking my head voice that she is a bad dog.

I'm hoping that eventually she become fully house-trained - keeping my fingers crossed - but I feel the exact same way that you do that if she doesn't ever become fully house-trained, it is no reason at all for me to re-home her.

Personally, I think that I alone am responsible for keeping Nature's Miracle in business some days :) Maybe I should buy shares in the company - they may give shareholders preferred prices!

I wish you nothing but the best of luck - I think you are absolutely a wondeful person to be putting in so much effort into Cube. Don't let the negative comments get you down. Just keep trying and eventually you will persevere. If Cube never does get it? Oh well, the main thing is that you and Cube love each other to bits!!

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 08:49 PM
Sorry if someone has already brought this up, but have you tried changing his food (I agree that there should be no food in the crate and regular meal times)? Maybe there is something in what he eats now that is 'overstimulating' his gut - grains, for instance. Just a thought.

Not sure if I mentioned this in the thread, but Cube has an undiagnosed food allergy. As such, he is eating a Venison & Rice food and overall seems to be much better on it than he was when he was on a "regular" food. The last couple of days he's had diarrhea but I think he may have eaten some of the cat's food when I wasn't looking and also that he's stressed because I'm stressed about him.

I have taken away all his food and water during the day for the last 2 days, and today the kennel was mess-free, so perhaps that's a big part of it. Not sure yet. Don't want to assume that fixed the problem yet.

Thanks,
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 08:54 PM
Well, you definitely wouldn't want to correct him for going outside, and not taking him for walks probably wouldn't be a good idea either because he needs his exercise especially being locked up all day. Probably what you want to try to do is get him to go in his litter box as much as you can, so that might mean waiting until he tries to go in the house after you get home so that you can immediately put him in his litter box and then praise him for doing it there, then going for your walk. If he goes outside at this point it might be the least confusing thing to just ignore it. The main thing is just catching him every single time he tries to go in the house so you can correct him to go in his litter box.

Poor guy, I feel pretty bad for him today. He's so used to being able to go outside and relieve himself the second I come home from work.. and today I refuse to open the door, and he just doesn't understand what this box with pine pieces in it is for. :( So we're trying to modify this plan a little. I've put the litter box outside where he always goes to the bathroom, and for the next--however long it takes--I'm taking him outside every 5 minutes on a leash and putting him in the box. He can't hold it all night!! I don't want to take him for a walk until he's at least peed in there, so it might be a late walk tonight.
But I'm persistent (I'm more stubborn than a dog's bladder, surely!), and we *will* win this battle tonight. I'm sure he's going to be totally lost as to why I'm throwing him a party for peeing, but I think he'll get it eventually.
As I said in a previous response today; he didn't mess in the kennel at all-so I know he has to go. Won't take too long, I'm sure, as he's also had a drink and some food now, too. :)

Thanks,
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 08:56 PM
even one of those puppy pee pads underneath the litter might encourage him to go in the litter, they ahve a scent most dogs take too and decide to go on the pad.
might be worth a try
Eleni

I've got one in there, too, and I'm spraying the box & the litter with the house-training aid I have. So far, no luck, but it'll work eventually, I'm sure. The few times I left him tied up in the kitchen with a puppy pad down, he DID use them, just he destroyed them and dragged the poop all over the place *after*.

Thanks!
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 09:03 PM
Please keep in mind that if he uses litter and is trained to go inside your home, he will likely go inside anyone's home.

Wow, I must have touched a nerve with something I wrote, because we both know that this isn't true. I have 3 cats, all of whom are litter trained (surprise surprise there). And when I take them to someone else's house, or they have to stay in a kennel (only 2 of them ever have), I've *never* had any problems with them "going" all over the place. I simply put them in the litter box wherever the person tells me to place it and let them find their way out of it. And that's all it takes with them. I don't see why it would be any different with a dog that's litter trained.

And I'd rather pack along a litter box and know that I can just put it down, show him where it is and then not worry about having to take him out every 10 minutes, than worrying about taking him out, about how his urine is going to damage their flowers or trees and how much of a hassle it is to have to take a bag outside and pick up the poop and then try to find their outside garbage bin... worse even if it's a high-rise that I'm visiting, where I have to carry the dog down 10 flights in the elevator to get him outside. What a pain in the BUTT!
Thanks, but I think I'll stick with the litter-training.

Lizzie
April 14th, 2005, 09:09 PM
You never mentioned you were going to take a litter box with you. I was simply pointing out the fact that the dog will need a litter box in other homes. He won't know to use the outdoors at other people's houses.

I have no problem with litter training dogs. I never said I did.

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Here's a great website on how to litter train dogs <snip>
I use the newspaper pellets since it's convenient to pick up.
I secure the litter in the wire kennel (36 x 24) by using plastic vice grips / quick clamps purchased at the dollar store. I clamp 2 sides of the litter box and it seems to be stable. The clamps make it easy to remove and clean the litter as soon as I get home.
For the most part, Rosie will use the litter box during the day when she is in her kennel - she still sometimes pees on her blanket which I am attributing to her being excited when she hears us come home.
<snip>
Personally, I think that I alone am responsible for keeping Nature's Miracle in business some days :) Maybe I should buy shares in the company - they may give shareholders preferred prices!
I wish you nothing but the best of luck - I think you are absolutely a wonderful person to be putting in so much effort into Cube. Don't let the negative comments get you down. Just keep trying and eventually you will persevere. If Cube never does get it? Oh well, the main thing is that you and Cube love each other to bits!!

I found that website accidentally (ok, I was searching) and printed it awhile ago. I'm not really able to follow the instructions to the letter, but I'm considering it a guideline. Every dog is different and since I'm not working with a puppy, things are a little less time-dependent (ie taking him to the box every 20 minutes is useless because I know that he doesn't have to go every 20 minutes), but I'm going to do my best.

I purchased a bag of generic (Walmart-brand I think) pine pellets. I prefer them to the newspaper ones because I can just reach into the bag and take out a handful and not get my fingers all inky... plus having a white dog, I don't want *him* to be all inky either. And I've used some newspaper ones, and they *did* leak colour. I'm sure some brands wouldn't, but I don't need to be spending $40 on a 10lb bag of litter, either, and the Yesterday's News stuff is almost the price of the pine pellets.

*slaps herself in the head* Clamps would have been so much easier... I manually drilled some holes (with a screwdriver) into the litter box and I'm using those little ratchet ties (not sure what they're called). They're kinda permanent, and one-time use only, as if I want to take the box out of the kennel, I'll have to cut them and replace them. Ah well... at least he didn't spill it today. I'm sure he'd find a way to undo clamps anyhow, so maybe this is the best.
What kind of dog is Rosie?

I agree with you... some companies really should allow the public to buy shares. Sort of like with Coop (not sure if you have one there, it's a grocery store/liquor store/gas bar line here) where you can buy a membership and then get a return at the end of the year based on how much you spent there. Last year I got a cheque for $60 plus they rolled over a bunch into *more* shares so I'll get more next year. Now if I could get a "return" on buying a certain brand of pet food... Petsmart needs to hurry up and get their reward card into Canada, cause their prices are better than Petcetera, where it's taking me forever to get my one free bag!

Thank you for having a similar outlook re; possible permanent "accidents". The less accidents he has (actually the less messes he has in the kennel) the more I find I enjoy him being around, so if we get to the point where it's only the ocassional pee in the house, I probably won't even blink, I'll just kiss him for reminding me to pay more attention to him. :)

Thanks!!
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 09:17 PM
You never mentioned you were going to take a litter box with you. I was simply pointing out the fact that the dog will need a litter box in other homes. He won't know to use the outdoors at other people's houses.

If I take my cats to someone else's house, I don't expect to find a litter box waiting there for me.

Lizzie
April 14th, 2005, 09:41 PM
Sorry--I couldn't have known that.

dogmelissa
April 14th, 2005, 09:43 PM
Ok... seriously... is there a possibility the dog has an aversion to the litter box? How can he? I just took him outside *again*. At which point he started to do his normal "I'm going to poop" circles. When his butt dropped and he started pooping, I picked him up and put him in the litter box, and said good dog good dog good dog in a quiet but very enthusiastic voice. He looked at me really funny... kinda pinched his poop (turd hanging from him) and then after about 10 seconds, his butt came up again. Well I know he wasn't done, but he obviously wasn't going to go in the box. So I let him get out of the box. The second all 4 feet were back on the gravel (I have a little gravel spot that he uses), it was like a rocket and the rest of the poop came out. Still no pee. And he didn't poop in the box. So what do I do? Do I go pick up the poop, put it in the box and bring the whole stinky thing in the house? Or do I just keep trying, taking him to the box every few minutes knowing that he'll have to go eventually??

Or do I *really* piss off my cats and lock them out of whatever room I'm in and bring the litter box in and don't let him outside *at all* until he does something in the box? Do I forfeit his walk tonight because I know he'll poop more and pee gallons while we're walking? What should I do??

Beetlecat
April 15th, 2005, 12:17 AM
I'm afraid I've never been in your situation of litter training a dog, so I don't really have any personal experience advice to give you but only what is coming to me from what feels right to me.

Firstly, when my dog was just a little pup and he started to go somewhere inappropriate and I lifted him and took him top a better spot, he wouldn't just squat and finish peeing. He seemed to take the fact that I had interrupted him as a sign I was upset with him and didn't feel sure of the situation. Then when he realized I wasn't mad at him, he'd sniff and look for a good spot on his own and finish up.

Your dog is probably a little upset and touchy now, and lots of his early human interaction was not good, so whe you put him in the litterbox, he might have been trying to figure out what he had done wrong, and why you had inturrupted him in a vulnerable position. And no dog wants to **** in an uncertain situation.

Honestly, (and I don't want you to take this as gospel, I'm just trying to figure out what I'd do in your place) what I think I would do is take him outside to potty without the litterbox and let him go wherever he wants to. After all, going outside is not bad, and I see no reason to try to train out peeing on the ground at this point. You can have normal walks

And when he is inside, you would take him to the litterbox if he starts to potty inside.

I really don't think that the concept of 'going to the litterbox is good and going outside is good too' is too complicated for him.

dogmelissa
April 15th, 2005, 01:29 AM
Honestly, (and I don't want you to take this as gospel, I'm just trying to figure out what I'd do in your place) what I think I would do is take him outside to potty without the litterbox and let him go wherever he wants to. After all, going outside is not bad, and I see no reason to try to train out peeing on the ground at this point. You can have normal walks
And when he is inside, you would take him to the litterbox if he starts to potty inside.
I really don't think that the concept of 'going to the litterbox is good and going outside is good too' is too complicated for him.

Beetlecat,
Thanks for your honesty in never having dealt with this kind of situation...

The reason I took the litterbox outside was because we've developed a routine where he goes outside and at the very least pees (sometimes poops) the minute I get home. Of course then I went and screwed up this routine today by deciding to litter-train him instead. So when I got home, instead of opening the door to let him outside, I put him in a box with pellets at the bottom and told him to "go pee" (he's used to this command as we've been using it since I got him, he just doesn't always respond to it). And he couldn't figure this out. I thought that if I could take it outside, and catch him in the act, then I might be able to move him into the box, get him to finish there and praise till I ran out of air. Such was not the case, apparently.
How long does a person have to wait for a dog to realize they're NOT in trouble, relax and finish their business, before giving up and letting them out of the box so we can *both* go and have our dinner?
I'm not trying to tell him that he *can't* pee outside, just that I want him to know that he *can* use the litter box. It's just very frustrating to not know how far I can push him before I've pushed him too far! I don't want to do things too fast or expect too much too soon, but honestly, the turd was hanging out of him and he *refused* to drop it in the box!

Unfortunately, I think that trying to teach him it's ok to go outside AND it's ok to go in the litter box IS too much for him. We've been doing the "ring the bell" trick *everytime* he's gone out for more than 2 months, and he has only done it once without me telling him to (and that was today when he was getting desperate and I was standing there watching him--I put the litter box at the door). And then while I was preparing my dinner, he started to poop in the middle of my kitchen floor, and when I grabbed him and put him in the box, again, nothing. However, since my dinner was about to burn, I had to put him outside instead of waiting for him to go in the box (I don't think he would have anyhow).

So I don't know. I really think I need to stick to one kind of house-training, but which one is the right one?? If he hasn't learned how to ring the bell and tell me he needs to go out in 2 months, is he ever going to? And what if it takes him 6 months to learn that, then how long is it going to take before he learns to use a litter box? 6 years??

I know it's only the first day, and I didn't expect perfection on the first try, but I didn't really think this would be so hard for him. I didn't expect him to just *stop* and refuse to finish (or refuse to go at all) simply because he's standing in a litter box. I thought that if I caught him in the act (or waited until he couldn't wait anymore) that I'd be able to have him do *something* in the box today so I could praise him like crazy and feel like it might be something that could work. Now I'm not so sure he'll ever get it.

I need to go to bed... it's late and he's going to wake me up at 2am & 5am as usual.
Thanks again, and please keep the advice coming... the support, moreso.
Melissa

Prin
April 15th, 2005, 02:44 AM
Ok, I am so confused. You don't want the dog to "go" outside. You only want him to go in a litter box? Why? Maybe I missed something.

My first doggy when I was little was paper trained and yes, she did find paper or anything similar on houses we visited, so be careful...

Have you had tests done for diabetes and other possible causes of over-urining?

Someone should really tell people who adopt dogs that their first year will likely be way over $1000 in vet bills so they are better prepared. Boo costed us between 2000 and 3000 for the first three months. My dad's Jack had to have 3 of 4 canines removed at $400 a pop.

SarahLynn123
April 15th, 2005, 12:52 PM
Eleni,

I'm doing my best to put (and keep) him on a schedule, but unfortunately, I do work outside my house, and I live alone. I am fairly close to home (10 minute drive) so by all rights I should be able to get home at noon to put him out, but that never seems to happen because I'm so busy at work. If I go away for lunch, then I end up staying late and that isn't good, either. :(

Melissa

This may not apply to you, but in my situation it works wonders. I also live 10-15mins from work and get a 1 hour lunch. My boss knows that unless I can bring my dogs to work, I need to go home for lunch to let them out. Instead of going out for lunch I always go home and if the girls want to chat they can come on over and do it my place. Its not always possible but I think maybe once every 2 months Im not able to make it home for lunch. It also saves money not eating out! If its possible, training would be alot easier if you were do what you can to make it home at lunch.

puppup11
April 15th, 2005, 01:38 PM
Maybe if you did put some poop in his box he would get the idea faster along with those puppy pads. He knows that going outside is good. He doesn't know that going in the litter box is good too. Trying to correct him from going outside by making him go in the litter box instead of outside might just make him more confused. If you just correct him when he tries to go in the house, you're sending a consistent signal that going in the house is not ok, but going in the litter box is ok, and as he continues to go outside you aren't untraining that behavior either. Maybe if you just used the box with just the puppy pads, no litter at first? Because he's gone on them before, but he's probably not used to litter. Once you get the box thing down you can try a little litter at a time. What I meant before was when you get home, let him out of his kennel, but watch him like a hawk till he tries to do something in the house, then put him in the litter box. If he gets out without doing anything, fine. Watch him again. As soon as he tries to go again in the house, put him back in the litter box. And if you're in the situation where you can't watch him like a hawk, yes put him outside because it's better that he goes outside than that he goes in the house uncorrected.

dogmelissa
April 15th, 2005, 03:56 PM
Ok, I am so confused. You don't want the dog to "go" outside. You only want him to go in a litter box? Why? Maybe I missed something.


No, I don't want him to ONLY go in the litter box, and NOT go outside. But since he hasn't been able to master *not* going in the kennel during the day, I thought it would be better if he learned how to use the litter box. And in order to avoid confusing the dog, it was suggested that I "pick one" and go with that. And since I expect him to use a litter box when he's in the kennel during the day, that was the logical choice. I thought it would be confusing to him if I still let him go outside, because then he still wouldn't understand what the litter box is for.

Have you had tests done for diabetes and other possible causes of over-urining?

He doesn't, IMO, "over-urinate". He, like me, goes about every 3-4 hours. He does seem to poop more than I expect, but that's a whole different issue, IMO, and not something the vet needs to check him for--it's a food issue which I'm trying to resolve. Plus there again, is that financial issue. It's not like he pees buckets everytime he goes, it's appropriate for the size of him, just that he doesn't tell me when he has to go!

Someone should really tell people who adopt dogs that their first year will likely be way over $1000 in vet bills so they are better prepared.

If I had made the conscious choice to get a dog, I would have been able to prepare for vet bills. However, since the situation around which I got the dog was really an emergency (for the dog) rescue situation. And I think generally it's these kind of situations that cost a lot more than the "average" adoption. Unless of course you're getting a puppy, in which case vet bills will be high simply for shots and stuff.

Anyways... such is life. I have the dog now and the bills are already there, and I just have to get through it.
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 15th, 2005, 04:03 PM
If you just correct him when he tries to go in the house, you're sending a consistent signal that going in the house is not ok, but going in the litter box is ok, and as he continues to go outside you aren't untraining that behavior either. <snip>
What I meant before was when you get home, let him out of his kennel, but watch him like a hawk till he tries to do something in the house, then put him in the litter box. If he gets out without doing anything, fine. Watch him again. As soon as he tries to go again in the house, put him back in the litter box. And if you're in the situation where you can't watch him like a hawk, yes put him outside because it's better that he goes outside than that he goes in the house uncorrected.

See, *I'm* confused, and if I'm confused how does the poor dog feel?? I've been *trying* to teach him that it's NOT ok to go in the house, that if I catch him going in the house, he's going to get chucked outside. So now it's ok to go outside when I'm standing at the door telling him it's time, but when he feels that it's time on his own, instead of chucking him outside to teach him to go out there, then I chuck him in the litter box?? This doesn't make any sense. He's not going to end up being house-trained OR litter trained. I need to find some time where I can just sit with him... close us both in the bathroom with some toys and the litter box and just refuse to let him out of there until I can get him to do *something* in the litter box. I can't *sometimes* put him outside and *sometimes* put him in the litter box. He's not going to understand. All I'm asking him to do is give me a signal that he needs to go out, ring the bell, bark, whine, nudge my leg, ANYTHING. Trying to litter train him now isn't going to work. I'll continue to leave the litter box in his kennel and if he uses it, great. If not, then I'm going to continue on the house-training the way I have been; making him ring the bell when he goes out and if I catch him doing something in the house, march him to the door, ring the bell and then outside. When he's figured that out, maybe I'll try offering him a litter box when he tells me has to go and see how that works.

Thanks,
Melissa

dogmelissa
April 15th, 2005, 04:07 PM
This may not apply to you, but in my situation it works wonders. I also live 10-15mins from work and get a 1 hour lunch. My boss knows that unless I can bring my dogs to work, I need to go home for lunch to let them out. Instead of going out for lunch I always go home and if the girls want to chat they can come on over and do it my place. Its not always possible but I think maybe once every 2 months Im not able to make it home for lunch. It also saves money not eating out! If its possible, training would be alot easier if you were do what you can to make it home at lunch.

I haven't had a lunch "out" (as in a purchased lunch) in probably 2 months. I always bring lunch with me. My problem is that I only get 1/2 hr for lunch, and the 10 minute drive (if I speed!!) each way pretty much kills that. I'd do it if it meant that he'd be ok, but also he has separation anxiety and going home for 10 minutes and then throwing him back in his kennel would probably make everything work. My vet told me that the first hour after you leave is really when the dog is upset. After an hour they pretty much settle down and sleep (exceptions apply). So to put him through 2 hours of stress in a day isn't really worth it. I'd rather just clean up after him in the evening then stress him out completely during the day. And if I could spend more than 10 minutes with him while I was home at lunch, then it might be ok, but with my time constraints and his separation anxiety, I don't think it's worth it.
Thanks for the suggestion, though.
Melissa

puppup11
April 15th, 2005, 08:31 PM
I can't *sometimes* put him outside and *sometimes* put him in the litter box.

Maybe I wasn't very clear, or maybe you're right, it won't work. But what I meant was to ALWAYS put him in his litterbox when he attempts to do his business inside. He already knows it's good to go outside, as long as you keep praising him for that he shouldn't unlearn that. But if you want him to go in his litterbox you have to get the message across somehow, and since you don't want him going in the house the easiest thing to do is correct him and put him in his litterbox every time he makes a mistake in the house. That way you're correcting the bad behavior, teaching the second good behavior, and maintaining the first good behavior he's already learned. Or the other option would be to hope that he can hold it all day, which is not a really bad option either if it works. But I think you are right, you can't teach him to both go to the door and ring the bell, and use the litterbox. If ringing the bell is more important to you then go with that. The problem is that it doesn't address the issue of him soiling his kennel when you're gone. But if you ultimately don't want him litterbox trained at all, then I wouldn't bother training him for it at this point.

Prin
April 15th, 2005, 10:05 PM
Personally, I think it would be easiest just to forget about the litter box and just make him pee outside. A box is a box, whether it be a crate or a litter box.

Hey, something just came to mind. How about making him go on LITTER? Like put litter outside and make him pee on it and then when he goes on the litter, praise him? Teach him to go on the substance, not in the box and eventually, if it's anything like paper training, he'll go on anything that resembles kitty litter?

Maybe?

Eleni
April 15th, 2005, 10:46 PM
my other thought too was you mentioned his potty spot outside is gravel, what about putting soem gravel in the litter box and maybe he will associate gravel as his place to go, then once he develops the habit of using the litter box stop using the gravel and use jsut the litter.

dunno if it would work but its worth a try.

I know since my dogs potty spot is on grass that he will ONLY go on the grass now, if we are on concrete or anything else he will jsut whimper and dance till i move him to some grass.

Eleni

aussiemedogs
April 15th, 2005, 11:29 PM
I have had a few stubborn dogs in my lifetime, I don't know if this will help but I think it may be worth a shot....
Your little guy likes to do his *stuff* in his kennel, this is where he feels it should be done at this time. Well when you paper train a dog and then decide you want the dog to go outside you normally would bring a soiled newspaper outside when its time for the pup to go...and hope that their is enough of a scent to make the dog want to go where he feels is the *right* place.

My suggestion is that you get a dog pen/ really large crate and place the crate that he is using for his toilet inside of it. For the time being let him think this is where you want him to go (in the smaller crate) but also leave a clean bed at the other end of the pen for him to sleep in and a few toys. If you need to leave food for him during the day, hide it throughout the pen/ under his blanket in corners let him look for it and have fun at the same time, (this is to help divert him from going back into the small crate where hopefully he has done his bussiness). Go out and get a tarp to protect your floor from any messes.

This guy has been taught to sleep in his own *stuff* you need to divert his attention to amusing himself while you are gone. If you succeed in having him just use the smaller crate as his own toilet then I suggest you take the crate outside with you when you want him to do his bussiness, after 2-3 weeks of this and once you have figured out his scheduale then I would test him....at the very last moment (when you know he needs to go) scoop him up and go outside without the crate, sure he is going to panic and not know what to do, may even stop himself from going, but you are the wiser of the 2, you know its there and needs to come out...wait, read a book whatever it takes but make sure he goes outside before you bring him back in.

As for praise sure that works with most dogs, maybe your dog would respond better with a playtime after relieveing himself. All of my guys respomd very well to praise but when I bring out their *special* toy (this is something I donot allow them to play with or chew on) unless I am playing with them. They have learnt now that this is our special time together and the toy only comes out when they have done something I have asked.

Good luck to you, don't know if any of this will help, but it may be worth a shot!

Cactus Flower
April 16th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Been lurking on this thread for a little while. Just wanted to say I was really impressed by your suggestion, Aussie. Good thinking! Maybe even scooting the "potty" crate closer and closer to the door would work (like people do with paper and training pads).

amber416
April 16th, 2005, 12:10 AM
I agree, nice work Aussie :thumbs up and I love the idea of this dog being in a pen/really big crate..that's my favorite part i think! :)

aussiemedogs
April 16th, 2005, 07:48 AM
Thanks, I have trained many dogs and have had a few that were thought to be untrainable, but through time and patience...it can be done.
My other suggestion is when you are home (on the week-ends) see if you can borrow a playful trained dog...this is the fastest method of outdoor training I have seen.

All they seem to do is play, play, play and then pee & poop and play some more. My last 2 dogs were not housetrained and quite stubborn, I ignored the accidents and just let the older dogs train him...the last one I took in I was told as I was leaving with him that ummmmm he is dirty in the house....well let's see now, does 1 pee mean he is dirty? not in my books, he followed the pack and is totally housetrained, just chews the entire house to bits if he is unsupervised.

It is so much easier to train a dog that the outdoors is his personal toilet and not the floor when you have another dog to teach/follow him.

Cactus Flower
April 16th, 2005, 12:03 PM
Oh that is so true! Trained dogs are great dog-trainers, aren't they?!


Well, Melissa, I hope you're still reading. You've got a whole range of good suggestions on here, and quite a few sets of fingers crossed. If rehoming this dog is out of the question, surely these tips and your determination will pay off.

Good luck!

puppup11
April 16th, 2005, 05:21 PM
The crate he's in now is a "medium" sized wire crate--3' wide & 4' long. It's designed for things like Chows & Keeshonds. I have about 1/4 of the kennel covered in puppy-pads (taped down *really* well), then he has a wicker basket with a towel for a bed (doing the laundry is much easier than when I had a blanket in there!), and I leave him a small amount of food in a bowl, and he has one of those rabbit water bottles. He has enough room to lay on the floor of the kennel and stretch out without getting into the puppy pad, he can lay in his bed (not big enough to stretch out in but close), but he chooses to lay directly on the soiled puppy pad.

I think we're already talking about a small dog in a large crate - I'm not sure if an even larger one would make much difference without actually training him to go on the puppy pads or litter box. He will still do his business wherever he feels like it in a large crate or a small one, in my opinion, without some kind of training. To me it sounds like he's doing his business in the crate when she's gone because he's confined there, not because he purposely wants to do his business there.

dogmelissa
April 19th, 2005, 11:38 PM
I like the idea of the larger crate, but what I'd have to do for that is introduce a smaller crate into the one he's in now. My house is only 891 sq ft, and unless I devote an entire room (the one I'm in now, for example, which has about enough room for my computer, a side table with my printer on it and my sewing machine), I just don't have space for a crate that's any bigger than the one I have. Seriously. We are talking about a dog that weighs 9 lbs, is about 18" long (nose to bum) and stands about 12" at the shoulders, and he is in a crate that is 23" wide and 36" long. It's not the size of the crate that's the problem; he COULD get out of it if he chose to. To get a bigger crate (which would have to be the "large" version of this one (30" W x 48" D x 36" H) would give me exactly a one Cube-space bigger crate (a Cube-space being the amount of space my dog-named Cube-would take up). Hardly seems worth it for the $100 it would cost me for the crate. That being said, I *have* tried putting him in the bathroom with a puppy pad taped in one corner and his blanket in the other. He'll pee on the puppy pad, poop on the puppy pad, then pee in his blanket. Then he'll walk through everything. I honestly want to give him the benefit of the doubt--somewhere in there I KNOW there are normal dog instincts--but I've just reached the end of my rope. I've tried everything short of sending him to doggy boot camp; everything I can afford that is. And nothing has worked. So that's fine. I've changed my attitude, and it's ok. There will be messes to clean up when I get home, that's a given. He'll either need a clean blanket, a bath, a kennel scrub, or all 3. But if I can still find things about him that I love--like the fact that he can't run as fast as the other dogs, but tries, and the fact that he does everything in his power to make me happy, especially when he doesn't know what I'm asking him--then I can tolerate having to clean up a little bit of poop. So what? It's not the end of the world. He's not damaging my house, he's not hurting the cats. He's not even hurting himself. So what if I have to do an extra load of laundry every week? So what if I go through a bottle of bleach every week? I have a dog that loves me, and so what if he just can't understand where and when to poop?
We'll all survive.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I'm really just giving up on this. I will continue to get him to ring the bell everytime we go out, and I will continue to walk him as much as possible in the hopes that he is empty when he goes in his kennel. I will continue to keep his kennel food- & water-free when I'm not home. I will continue to clean up everyday. And if there is anything else that anyone might suggest, other than a lot of patience, feel free. I can't guarantee I'll try it, but at least it'll be out there if I decide to later.

Thanks again,
Melissa

doggy lover
April 20th, 2005, 04:03 PM
Dog melissa I have been having a few problems with my border collie and I found this book on non-agressive dog training by Jan Fennell it is called The Dog Listener, it is a great book and she has stories in it about dogs that she has helped, one of her own was a rescue. It is great of you to take in this poor dog and I must say you have alot of work before you taking in one that has been abused, good luck.

dogmelissa
May 10th, 2005, 09:31 PM
Just wanted to let you all know what has been going on in my house.
First: I have restricted food intake to evenings-only. He is free-fed in the evenings when I am home and for about half an hour in the morning (while I shower) and otherwise does not have access to food or water. This has helped somewhat.
Secondly: I rigged up a wire-mesh about an inch above the bottom of the crate. He was having some problems with his feet, mostly due to walking in his own urine during the day, I'm sure, and this has helped with that problem, and also allows his poops to be squished through the mesh (small feet = small openings) onto the bottom below so there are less messes, assuming he doesn't poop on his blankets.
Third: He is now taking, twice daily, a 1/2 dropper full (not sure how much exactly) of Dr Goodpet's Calm/Stress drops (I found these at Walmart). Not sure if these are doing any good but they make me feel better, so I keep giving them to him.
Since the weather has also been nicer, his evenings walks have been much longer. We're now walking almost an hour in the evenings, and when I have time/nice weather, about 15 minutes in the mornings.
He is still kenneled during the day and at night, or anytime I'm not at home.

Results: he has started going to the front door and looking at me when he needs to go out. Not sure why the front door, but I'm not complaining. I've noticed almost everytime he's done this, and have only had two accidents in the house when I was home in the last 3 weeks or so. He still regularly pees and/or poops in his kennel during the day, but as it's contained, I just deal with it. Lots of laundry & dog-baths and otherwise it's ok.
He will now ring the bell at the back door without a command when I'm putting him out, but still hasn't made the connection that it's a cause-effect relationship with the bell being a trigger for me to open the door for him. Will continue to work on this.
I've given up on the litter box. Would like to see him use a litter box, especially in the winter, but I don't have the time or ability to train him to it right now and I'd rather he was just house-trained and not worry so much about the box.

He's a happy dog, loves his walks, loves to play (though doesn't seem to like any of his toys!) and is doing really well.
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions, but the best ones were patience and persistence. I still have days when I'm frustrated, but at least he's showing some improvement. I can wait for perfection.
Thanks again!!
Melissa

adplater
May 11th, 2005, 11:03 AM
A big Woo Hoo for Cube!!!!

I'm glad everything is working out!

skyeonphyre
September 18th, 2010, 08:38 PM
Good for you for being such a wonderful human being, for being patient and loving and for asking for help when you needed it. Everyone has offered you some great suggestions. Our doggie is not so house trained. We dont have her on a strict schedual since we also work. But shes good in her kennel most days.
You could always try taking her out lots, which I imagine you do. When I started letting willoh out of her kennel, I would pick her up and take her straight outdoors. And reward reward reward saying the words "pee, poop, treat" alot. You could also try puppy pads for indoor use. And use scents and sprays you can buy at most stores that attract the pet to the matt to pee/poop on. You could also provide one in a larger kennel with room for her to have a pee/poop area, sleep area, etc.
I also dont make a habit of putting a lot of food/water in her kennel when we are gone. She can eat after we get home from work so she dont have those accidents. Water is a little harder to keep away as in the summer it gets quite hot. But in moderation. She dont need big bowls of it around all day.
Last resort, Caesar Milan.... the Dog Whisperer. Drop him and email. You rescued a puppy thats been thru hell. You opened your arms and your home to her. I am sure your story would inspire others.
Hang in there.
Remember, routine, rewards, restrict food in the kennel, use indoor dog pad training until you get the outdoor training under wraps. Good luck and God Bless you and your doggie!

14+kitties
September 18th, 2010, 10:33 PM
Welcome Skyeonphyre. Don't know if you noticed but this thread is from 2005.