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genealogy

raingirl
April 7th, 2005, 03:23 PM
Anyone a genealogy expert??

I only have names, but no birth dates or city info for my great grandparents, and I was wondering where I should start. I don't talk to my father, so I have to rely on what I have only....

I know my grandfather was born in Ireland, and that's my goal, as I need his birth certificate to get an Irish Dual Citizenship (then if Archie marries me, he could be triple citizenship with Canada, Philipines, and Ireland).

db7
April 7th, 2005, 04:20 PM
I know a lot about tracing genealogy in Ontario and in Ireland. Let's back up to all the details you have on your grand parents. Birth, death, marriage, maiden names, cities. Probably better to do this by private message.

raingirl
April 7th, 2005, 04:49 PM
I sent you what I have, which isn't much. I know more about my canadian history than my irish one.

happycats
April 7th, 2005, 05:47 PM
Interesting Raingirl. How do you go about applying fot dual citizenship?
Can anyone do it? Please tell me more.

db7
April 7th, 2005, 05:53 PM
For Ireland you need to have an Irish born grandparent. Other countries in the EU are more strict.

happycats
April 7th, 2005, 06:00 PM
What about Holland ?

db7
April 7th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Dunno 'bout Holland. Phone the consulate and ask.

Prin
April 7th, 2005, 08:30 PM
Hey db7 maybe you could tell me too... We can't find my ancestry. We know what year my great grandfather left Ireland but his name is not on any lists... I just really want to know if my last name is different than he said it was...

db7
April 7th, 2005, 10:06 PM
Your great grandfather's name will be on your grandfather's birth registration and also on his marriage registration.

I don't know where the records are kept in Quebec. But they will be with the government archives, or with the Church archives or at the parish church.

The older records are available to the public. More recent records, basically of people alive, are not accessible.

Once you have the name you can research the census records to find all the family.

You know when he came so you may also find immigration records.

Prin
April 7th, 2005, 10:19 PM
Ya but the thing is if he changed his age and his name before he came here, the records here won't lead us to the records in Ireland, right? There are no people in Ireland with our last name. It's a Scottish name but we know he was born in Ireland...

db7
April 7th, 2005, 10:29 PM
What makes you think he changed his name and age? If you send me a little detail in a PM I might be able to narrow things down.

But if he did change his name completely, you are probably out of luck.

db7
April 7th, 2005, 10:32 PM
If you were searching ships list you should know that they are far from complete. And depending on when he came it is quite likely that there are no immigration records. Back then all of Ireland was part of Great Britain as was Canada so there was no documentation. Just like moving across town.

raingirl
April 8th, 2005, 10:33 AM
DB7,

I was searching the 1901 census, but it only has addresses, not names. Am I reading it wrong?

Prin, I know what you mean...I think it was my great grandparents changed their names during WW1 as they had a german name, and didn't want to be prejudiced against...it was only temp though, and I never knew what the name was. They went back to their original name after WW2.

db7
April 8th, 2005, 12:50 PM
The 1901 census does have names but the computerized version is not indexed by name. So you need to search geographic areas to find the names. That's the way you asearch all the censuses except the 1871 Ontario, which is indexed by the government. And also the 1881 census which has been indexed by the Mormons at familysearch.com.

Prin
April 8th, 2005, 12:54 PM
db7 I sent you a pm

db7
April 8th, 2005, 12:55 PM
And I forgot to mention, unless you are loaded don't bother paying anyone to search for you. They don't have access to any information you cannot find yourself.

The only exception is using somebody to do a look-up overseas. But you can usually find what you need without paying. For Europe, if you want a church record searched make a request to the individual church and send a small donation, they will do the look-up for you. That is on an individual basis some churches will be more co-operative than others.

raingirl
April 8th, 2005, 02:08 PM
db7,

When I was in the 1901 census, I did a search for Toronto east, and the only thing that came up was pictures of pages, and the pages only had addresses on them, no names. I know the approx area my dad grew up in, was hoping maybe his dad lived around there at the time.

db7
April 8th, 2005, 03:17 PM
First, every census is listed by address.
There are two sections to the census.
The first section lists the names in a family gropu at the address and includes personal info like DOB, ethnicity, religion etc. schooling profession.....
The second section list information about the land/lot. I don't remember what they have for cities but this section is also known as the agricultural census and lists what crops were planted,how much was produced, livestock, buildings on the land.

You may be looking at the second section. There will be a corresponding section with names. I hve no idea if that section has been computerized. When I did my research none of the 1901 was computerrized so I am not familiar with the tool online.

read the faq it will help you
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/02/020122/02012208_e.html#1

Did you try searching the 1881 census on familysearch.com?
or the 1871?

Luvmypit
April 8th, 2005, 03:20 PM
I wanted to get a family tree done for my parents anniversary do you think Db7 it would be better I research it all myself. How expensive is it?

raingirl
April 8th, 2005, 03:30 PM
According to the website you posted, they only copied the schedules 1 and 2, the rest were destroyed and not copied. Maybe the info about the people was on those parts?

Anyway, my grandfather was probably only born in the early 1900's, and in ireland, so the 1901 may not be relevant for my dad's side of the family. If I can get it to work, I will start looking up my mom's side though.

Prin
April 8th, 2005, 04:25 PM
The 1901 census is only the the location census on the internet. To search by name you have to go in person. It says thay on the website.

CyberKitten
April 8th, 2005, 11:04 PM
I zipped thru the other posts - just read your 1st one since I went thru the process of becoming a dual Irisah citizen - grandpa and grandma born in Ireland. It was quite easy actually and the Irish govt was very helpful. It's best to actually visit Ireland to apply. Goes faster!

If your local geneology society has a room at a library or an association, contact them and ask to see the lists for 1851. 1861, 1871 etc. As someone said, 1901 is online and it is not entirely correct alas. The 1951 census states where the individual was born. The Irish govt will not accept that as proof however. They want baptismal or civil birth certificates - your grandparents and yours preferably. Then they need the entire geneological chart done (It was easy for me - I had the birth certificates and then my dad's with parents listed and then my own birth certificate). Plus marriage certificates and other data like obits in the newspaper. But some govt document is much prefered.

As a dual citizen, I get to vote in Ireland and now that the country is part of the EU, the opportunities are endless. I love it!!

Good luck!! This is quick since I am on my way to bed but let me know if you have more questions.

Prin
April 8th, 2005, 11:10 PM
It'll be hard if I can't find out his real name or age...

CyberKitten
April 8th, 2005, 11:16 PM
You can search the 1901 census but you have to do it the old fashioned way. Read thru and find one that might be and so on and so on. Find a local association or the GenWeb site for your region - they will have a list of people who can help and probably the name of the person who input the data for the 1901 census.

Prin
April 8th, 2005, 11:20 PM
It would have to be 1905 for us... I don't know how complete it is for other years...

raingirl
April 8th, 2005, 11:21 PM
Problem is I don't know anything about my dad's side of the family, and that's the part that comes from Ireland. I only know names. I don't know any birthday's, birthplaces, when they were married, where they were married. heck, I don't even know my own father's birthday or where he was born (I *think* it was in Toronto, some time in June...maybe 1942...making his parents being born maybe between 1910-1920, therefore not on the census for 1901 as they would have been in Ireland still).

How often are censuses done? Is the next one only 1951?

Prin
April 8th, 2005, 11:26 PM
On the upside Raingirl, if they left later, there were a lot less people in Ireland after the big exodus so maybe a name will be enough.... The Irish Republic had 8 million people at the turn of the century and now it's around 3 million...

db7
April 9th, 2005, 08:44 AM
Luvmypit - The cost is impssoible to judge. Stimes therecords are easy to find, other times it is very time consuming.

I suggest you do it yourself, that way you can enjoy making the discoveries yourself.

If you really get stuck you can usually find someone experienced to help at the Family History Centres or the genealogical societies.

Pay as a last resort. Be careful who you hire.

db7
April 9th, 2005, 08:58 AM
Schedule One is the portion with Names. Schedule two is the portion you were able to look at. The rest that have not been digitized are schedules that list number of schools, churches etc in regions and also schedules that summarize total births and deaths in the region. Those are purely numbers and not names. Useful for social anthropology but not genealogy.

For the most part all the Canadian census back to 1851 are fully intact. Portions of each will be found on-line, they are transcribed by hobbyists as part of genealogy societies/clubs projects for their region.
'
Some one here mentioned GenWeb. It is a great resource. It is a net based association of hobbyists arond the world. Each local area, in Ontario it is by county, has a website with local info contacts and data they have digitized. Some are more active than others. For example Newfoundland is huge and has vast amounts of data digitized. Others may have only contact info for the local churches or govt. offices.

The last full Canadian Census that is available to the public is 1901. Some regional censuses were done in 1905 and they are available. The 1911 census has not been released and the Canandian government is currently refusing to release it becasue of privacy issues. That is in the courts right now, or was, haven't paid much attention lately.

If you find data on-line from the volunteers transcriptions note the microfilm reel number page and line of the records. You then can go to your local family history centre, check with the mormons to see where your closest one is (familysearch.org) or check your public library to see if they have the microfilms, and look up the microfilmed original.

db7
April 9th, 2005, 09:01 AM
raingirl

"the problem is......" Tht's why the call it saearching! Look at it as a puzzle and you have to find the pieces.

Censuses are done every 10 years.

db7
April 9th, 2005, 09:10 AM
The best way to get started after you have collected all the information you actually know is to check to see if other people have researched any branches of your family. Often you will find the work is already done. Or someone has a little piuece of info you need but are stuck on.

To do this search all the names you have at familysearch.org. That is the database of the Mormons who are required to do know their genealogy for acceptance in the church. (Or some such reason, I'm not so big on religions)

Be careful with the data submitted by individuals without the sources/proofs. Lots of people fudge the data to get closer to God I guess.

Also check rootsweb.com, it hosts name and region specific mailing lists. They are searchable back 5 or 6 years. So you might find someone working on the same tree as you. Subscribe, post your questions, you will get help.

The master index of all genealogy websites is called Cyndi's List. Google it to be overwelmed with data.

CyberKitten
April 9th, 2005, 08:36 PM
I think the mystery and the search is part of the fun!! I doubt the 1911 census will be released - even tho geneologists (many hobbyists) are fighting for it. New privavcy laws may circumvent it tho. The previous census data provide great info.

Ireland is hard to get info from if only because many of the data in the 1800's was lost to fire and other tragedies. The British did not exactly care for the Irish Catholic resources and until 1825, it was illegal even to practice Catholicism or for a Catholic to go to school hold office, vote, etc (and that extended to Canada!)

BUT it is possible and if you need data from cica 1905, I am sure you can find it. It is best - as I mentioned - to actually visit the country and have local people help you. There is a records center in Dublin.

Surely someone can fill in the blanks.

When my uncle died recently, we were faced with a plethora of photos from the early 1900's - all unsigned and unmarked. The most interesting one I thought was of a nun - the photo was taken in Bangor, Maine and so I called the studio and as I expexcted, it no longer exists. So I have a friend (several actually, lol) who are nuns and asked them if they recognized the habit - which would be older than even the nun's habits of the 1950's etc. They were not certain but it looked like it might be the Sisters of the Sacred Heart - tho they had no mission in Bangor. So I emailed the photo to another friend who actually belongs to that order and she is trying to see if in fact this woman can be IDed from it. It does not help that women sometimes literally lost their ID when they changed their name upon entry to a religious order but the org must have records somewhere!!

Soo - so far we have IDed all of two photos, not so good but we are getting there, lol

badger
April 9th, 2005, 09:07 PM
Actually, the Mormons have a specific reason for all the valuable geneological research they do, although it is not widely advertised: their mission is to baptize as many people as possible, posthumously, into their church. When Jewish organizations got wind of this, they demanded to be excluded, and are. Everyone else is fair game. Of course, for most people it has no meaning - to my mind, it is simply ridiculous - but that is their motivation, to save people from the Other Place.

CyberKitten
April 11th, 2005, 11:09 PM
This is an update on my "nun" photo - not that I want to hijack the thread - but I was excited, lol (I think Raingirl's post brought me luck - the luck of the Irish :) ) (Now if I could figure out how to create a shamrock with an ASCII, lol


Anyway- my friend in the Srs of the Sacred Heart was able to find someone who IDed the habit as in fact an older habit of that order and so she emailed it to their Headquaters (Motherhouse - they used to call them that, not sure anymore?). A retired college administrator with time had computerised most of the records and a picture was found exactly like the one we found. It turns out this woman was my great grandmother's sister who became a nun. I'd never met her - mind you, my gr grandmother died at the age of 86 but met me in my incubator just before she died or so I'm told. This woman had been a university professor - of theology - at the university operated by the Sacred Heart in New York. It was in those old days tho when nuns did not travel to their families tho, sigh!! At least I solved the mystery - now I can write about her!

raingirl
April 12th, 2005, 06:53 AM
The best way to get started after you have collected all the information you actually know is to check to see if other people have researched any branches of your family. Often you will find the work is already done. Or someone has a little piuece of info you need but are stuck on.

tried, didn't find anything. No one has researched our family yet that I know of. We don't have a big family though.

To do this search all the names you have at familysearch.org. That is the database of the Mormons who are required to do know their genealogy for acceptance in the church. (Or some such reason, I'm not so big on religions)

Nothing there on my family name

Also check rootsweb.com, it hosts name and region specific mailing lists. They are searchable back 5 or 6 years. So you might find someone working on the same tree as you. Subscribe, post your questions, you will get help.

Tried that. Never used a mailing list before though so no idea what I should do. I sent an email to the subscribe address....never heard anything back...

The master index of all genealogy websites is called Cyndi's List. Google it to be overwelmed with data.

it had nothing on my name, except one website I had already seen which wasn't my ancestors.

Maybe I'm looking the wrong way. I guess I should figure out my recent ancestors first then right? Do marriage records have the parents of the bride and groom listed?? I don't know when my parents were married, but it was some time after 1963, probably in the 60's... in Toronto. How do I find that info out?? (My mother refuses to talk about her marriage to my father, and I don't talk to my father so I can't ask them info...if I could, it would make it easier).

It seems all the records on the net are old (pre-1900) which is not where I'm looking. I want to know about my father and grandparents, and if I find that, then I will go back farther.

I have been searching the message boards at Ancestry.com all morning, and nothing. Do you know how to get unreleased records from the Attorney General's office?? (I think that's where they said you request the info from..)

One thing I did figure out is my grandfather did not divorce my grandmother before 1968 (if at all)...as you can search those by name for all of Canada between 1841 and 1968.

db7
April 12th, 2005, 01:13 PM
The newer vital records (Births, deaths, marriages) can only be found in newspaper announcements and possibly at the church of the event.

The gov't will only release current info if at the very least you prove you are the most direct descendant and the people you are researching are dead.

We're talking COTTER right? There is a lot of info around, but you will have to read through a lot to get the the gems. Here is a link to the past posts on the COTTER mailing list.

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/COTTER/

and the message board

http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=surnames.cotter


also the County Cork board http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=localities.britisles.ireland.crk.general

and mailing list

http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/IRL/IRL-CORK.html

raingirl
April 13th, 2005, 04:16 PM
OK....read through all the posts, archives and such. Only one ref to a man with the same name as my grandfather, but it was in austrailia, and about 20 years too early for his b-day. I tried to find an austrailia census online, but couldn't.

The gov't will only release current info if at the very least you prove you are the most direct descendant and the people you are researching are dead.

By most direct descendant, does that mean my dad (cus he's still alive) would be the person to request info about his father, my granddad? Or can I do it (I don't talk to my father...haven't since 1997). Also, there is the *slight* posibility that my grandfather could still be alive (but in his late 80's or 90's), then will I not be able to get the info?

CyberKitten
April 13th, 2005, 08:05 PM
IF your grandfather is alive (wow, your case sounds most intriging if I may say so) - you would need his permission, especially under the new privacy laws - to access any of it.

I find some of these privacy laws (even while understanding them) a pain in the you know what. NOT the medical ones but recently, I stayed at a hotel on a work related meeting. I sent in my expense claim and the accountants wanted a statement from the hotel showing the final amt - a differnt format in other words. In order to get another one, the hotel had to fax a privavcy form for me to fill in ,hospital had to fax it to me and I had to fill it in - keeping in mid I could barely recall the dates etc. - and fax the whole thing back and then a new one would be issued. That took way too much time out of my day and I was less than impressed! (especially since it is the kind of info that is prob public anyway - of one knows where to look at least, lol - so what's the big deal?)

Anyway -- I do think by direct descendant, they mean parent or grandoarent.

raingirl
April 15th, 2005, 04:38 PM
well, the plot thickens!!

I finally figured out how to search the 1901 census, and view the pages with names on them. I've done about 10% of the toronto east pages, and no Cotters yet!

Second, I found out how to request a long format birth certificate. I was hoping I could get my dad's as it would have my grandparents info on it. Well..turns out I have to either be:
a) the person listed on the certificate (i.e. my dad)
b) a parent listed on the certificate (i.e. my grandparents)
c) closest next-of-kin, if the person is deseased.

Since my dad is still alive (last I heard), doesn't look like I will get getting one! So...I've hit a dead end. Without more info, I can't move forward.

db7
April 15th, 2005, 06:49 PM
You might be able to get around the requirements if you can provide documentation from a doctor saying you need the info in order to find other living relatives due to potential genetic disease. Hope that's not true though ;)

CyberKitten
April 15th, 2005, 07:10 PM
Re: You might be able to get around the requirements if you can provide documentation from a doctor saying you need the info in order to find other living relatives due to potential genetic disease.

Even then, you may still need the permission of the individual whose records you are seeking. Why can't your father apply for them for you? (I may have missed something since I scan so quickly). Is he not around? (deceased or other?)

I have had several cases where we have encountered probs in getting a match for a bone marrow donor - and I am always amazed that a biological parent will not get involved when the child they "gave up" is dying! And we cannot steal their bone marrow to find out whether they are donors! But you cannot access their records without their consent!

raingirl
April 15th, 2005, 08:26 PM
I have chosen to cut off all contact with my father. I haven't seen or spoke to him since 1997. He is a very manipulative and emotionally damaging man that broke my heart way to many times to count. I finally realised that I didn't have to put up with his crap, so I just stopped. He hasn't made any attempts to contact me either. I don't even know where he lives now, so I couldn't contact him if I tried. Last year my mother hired a private investigator to find him, and even they couldn't. He has a trailer up north that he lives in most of the time, but my sisters and I have only been there as kids, and I couldn't tell you exactly where it is...and because he has no phone, no way to call him or look him up. Even his drivers license didn't have a correct address (my dad hasn't been the best with the law in the past...so he could be hiding out for all I know, probably avoiding some loan shark).

I noticed on the application for the certificate that you can apply and be turned down, but you have the option to appeal the decision. Maybe I will apply anyway, send a letter explaining why I am applying, and if they turn me down, appeal it. It will cost be $35...I think it's worth a try. I'm actually tempted to order my own long format birth certificate as it will have my dad's exact bday and all that info.

CyberKitten
April 15th, 2005, 09:13 PM
I don't know about Ontario - is that where you are? - but in NB, you can search geneological records online through the Provincial Archives. NS has that option as well but NB has more records computerized at this stage. My mother's family - tho from Ireland a long time ago (her grandmother is from Ireland) - is essentially Canadian and I found the record of my maternal grandparents birth online. (It was kinda kewl actually) as well as their marriage certificate. (This applies to civil marriages and in those days, most people just got married in a Church and did not bother to get a marriage licence). I wonder if Ontario has that? Would that not solve some of your problems? In NB - it starts at a certain date (1930's back I think).

You might also locate the Church or Minister/Priest/Rabbi who married them and obtain records from them?

Sorry to hear about your dad!

raingirl
April 15th, 2005, 09:47 PM
they have a lot online in Ontario, but the stuff I'm looking for is too recent. If the person might still be alive, it's not online. Only births from more than 95 years ago are online, and since I don't know when my grandfather or grandmother were born, it doesn't help me. Heck, I don't even know when my father was born!! Or where for that matter! That should be on my long form birth certificate right?

db7
April 15th, 2005, 10:23 PM
Raingirl,

Sounds like you have a real challenge. It will take you some monotonous searching because you don't have any specifics to start with. Once you get the specifics on a couple of generations then you will just have the the regular genealogy frustrations.

You are going to have to spend some hours going through years of microfilm indexes to find some likely relatives and narrow things down.

Any chance you can get some info from your estranged father's criminal record?
I have no idea what you can find on that.

CyberKitten
April 15th, 2005, 10:27 PM
It might be - it all depends on who filled it in. (some eneumerators of the census in the "old days" were given the position mainly because they could actually read and write.


Oh? On your birth cert you mean? It should be - I am not as familiar with the Ontario birth certificates. But I assume - unless you are adopted - a more detailed certificate should list your parents. (Not sure if it would list their birthplace tho - just your birthplace). But with your father's name, it seems to me you should be able to obtain birth info somehow. He had to have attended school somewhere - there are Registers for each school that the Archives also house. Newer info would be obtained in school yearbooks.

But your goal is to obtain your grandparents' info so you can become an Irish citizen, correct?

What about the morgue in newspapers? They'd have old obits and it was only up to about 10 yrs ago that many newspapers started to charge for obits. And weeklies publish ALL of them. Have you contacted any of the GenWeb people? They have contacts in each community and usually have a wealth of knowledge about families, family names - just because they are usually the volunteers who input the data and other info (incl the 1901 census). A parent of a patient does it for two Counties in NB and she has now written a couple books. If I mention a family name, she can list a plethra of info.

raingirl
April 15th, 2005, 10:52 PM
I've contacted a few poeple, sent some emails, just getting into it.

I did find something interesting I was not looking for. Aparently someone has written an entire book on my great grandmother's (maternal grandmother's mother) family name. I found out all the way back to 1700's. My GGGGGrandfather was from connecticut..and was a hatter (made hats) and was in the civil war!

I also have my great grandmother's bday (Feb 21 1857), but not place. Also, it appears that she had my grandmother when she was 55! (then again, she had 13 children, and my grandmother was the last..so it's not that far fetched). It's nice to have some info after all that searching.