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March 29th baby seal clubbing starts...

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 08:20 AM
Today is the day,when"hunters"grab their fishooking gear and their clubs to beat 300.000 harpseals to death,at times skin them while they are still alive,their cries are heard all over the world.
Please spare me all the arguments about the economy etc...the Seal-Hunt and cruelty is something we Canadians are becoming infamous for and it makes this proud Canadian very ashamed.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 08:30 AM
Off-topic.

Shannon83
March 29th, 2005, 08:55 AM
How's is it off topic?

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 08:57 AM
This is a General Forum,seals are still part of the animal-world :confused:

Shannon83
March 29th, 2005, 09:00 AM
I guess to some people if you can't own it, it doesn't matter.

Sneaky2006
March 29th, 2005, 09:01 AM
Technically the general forum is for pet related issues. So this would be considered off topic but definitely didn't need to be pointed out :(

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 09:03 AM
Yes,cruelty is cruelty be it to a dog,cat or seal.... :mad:

Katze
March 29th, 2005, 09:13 AM
Well to me it is on topic, as my cats will be participatng in the international boycott of canadian seafood until the day this inexcusable spectacle of greed and barbarism is ended permanently. :ca:

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 09:22 AM
Sneaky,I see your point..I did only see General Forum,did not read the small-print..I don't know how to move it to Off Topic.. :confused:
The fact remains that at this minute a blood-bath is going on,a barbaric,shameful deed :mad:
Katze...thank you...

Sneaky2006
March 29th, 2005, 09:25 AM
It's not a big deal Chico, if it's that important one of the mods would move it for you.
I just wanted to say that I thought it (the off or on topic part of it) did not need to be pointed out.

happycats
March 29th, 2005, 09:42 AM
Thank you for pointing this out chico2, it is something everyone needs to be aware of!!!
I just want to know what it will take to stop this horrible, disgusting barbaric, slaughter? There is no valid reason for it !! When is Canada going to get into this century?
Today as a Canadian I am also very ashamed.

I just try to remember, what goes around comes around :evil: they will all get thiers one day :evil:

TWilson9498
March 29th, 2005, 09:46 AM
Wow, I have heard of the seal bashing before but I did not realize it was THAT many! I mean sure, one is bad enough, but we don't hear much about it down here, so I really didn't know. That's the kind of things that make you just sick, literally. If it's due to overpopulation what will they do next, go to China and bash in the skulls of babies that are not wanted there, because there sure is ALOT of them adopted to the US because they are unwanted due to population issues, or God forbid because they are the wrong sex. Isn't that the same thing, really? Killing is killing no matter if it is human or animal, they are dying for the same reason. Sad...
Who cares if it is off topic, had you not posted I still would not know anything about the topic, so thank you for educating people like me who live WAY away from you, and otherwise wouldn't know. Some people are so grumpy in the A.M.

Cinnabear
March 29th, 2005, 10:16 AM
You would have thought it would be outlawed by now. Just sickening. :sad:

BMDLuver
March 29th, 2005, 10:33 AM
Have stood on the shores of Cavendish Beach in PEI when the ice is breaking up and watched the seal hunt. It's an experience I will probably never forget. I will say two things on this subject...

A majority of the hunters are extremely adept and deliver one blow which results in immediate death. (Comparative to a cow receiving one shot of electrocution between the eyes while heading into the slaughterhouse)
Others are not so adept. :sad:

The true hunters use almost every part of the seal killed. The trophy hunters keep only the pelts and discard the carcass. :sad:

It is an issue which is extremely controversial and I would suggest everyone witness it live once so that they can remember that man is truly a cruel animal who has not evolved very far IMHO.

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 10:42 AM
I think it will probably be on the news all over the world tonight..
For those of you who do not know much about it.
Picture this horror:White baby-seals will be laying defence-less on an ice-flow,a big burly man with a club and a hook will bash his head in,the babyseal will cry like a baby for every blow.
When it cries no more,not neccesarily dead,a big hook will be jammed into it's body and dragged away to be skinned,often still alive.Bloodied carcasses will be left on the ice :sad: The pelts being worth up to $100 for the hunter.
Our natives have hunted seals for hundreds of years,but not in this manner and they use every bit of the animal they kill,not to be even remotely compared to this yearly brutality.
I will not watch anything about it on the news,the mere mention of the"seal-hunt"makes me sick and sad and I change channel....it's totally frustrating :mad:

Lucky Rescue
March 29th, 2005, 11:59 AM
A real black eye for this country, but hey - people gotta have fur coats you know!

I know someone who wears fur, saying it's the only thing that keeps her warm. I understand, as she would surely be in danger of freezing to death without one, going from heated home, to heated garage, to heated car. :mad:

Thank goodness there are animals to be slaughtered so SHE can wear their skins and feel better about herself.

MegShawnMom
March 29th, 2005, 12:09 PM
The seal hunt as miserable and disturbing to us all, so is the slaugher of chickens and cattle.
The bottom line for the government is :seals eat to many cod .
With no hunt there would be an explosion of seals who would desimate the fish population and there are not enough natural preditors to keep the seal population in check.
This is what happens when we interfer with nature.We saw what happened when we went after the wolves/foxes/cougers/etc.
No matter what the government does they will still scew it up,thats the law.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 12:43 PM
It's off-topic because seals are not pets. No controversy there.

However I'm up for a little flaming today and since so many people have responded I'll weigh in.

Your complaints would be valid 20 years ago. But in 1984, the Progressive Conservative Minister of Fisheries and Oceans John Crosbie in the Mulroney administration activated the Malouf Royal Commission on Seals and the Sealing Industry. The result was a complete overhaul of the industry banning the taking of small pups, highly restricting the hunt and highly regulating it. Since the implementation of the Malouf recommendations it has become a sustainable and humane industry. Seal populations are the highest they have ever been recorded at and 3 times what they were in the seventies.

In 2000 further consultations were conducted including over 200 organizations from industry, government, aboriginal, conservation and animal rights groups were invited to provide their input.

The hunt has been monitored and the killing methods approved by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association. The CVMA has stated that equal to or more humane than standard practises in domesticated animal processing.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 12:46 PM
ATLANTIC CANADA SEAL HUNT
MYTHS AND REALITIES

Myth #1: The Canadian government allows sealers to kill adorable little white seals.

Reality: The image of the whitecoat harp seal is used prominently by seal hunt opponents. This image gives the false impression that vulnerable seal pups are targeted by sealers during the commercial hunt.

The hunting of harp seal pups (whitecoats) and hooded seal pups (bluebacks) is illegal - and has been since 1987. Marine Mammal Regulations prohibit the trade, sale or barter of the fur of these pups. Furthermore, seals cannot be harvested when they are in breeding or birthing grounds.

Myth #2: Seals are being skinned alive.

Reality: The most recent Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA) Report and numerous reports mentioned by the Malouf Commission (1987) indicate that this is not true.

Sometimes a seal may appear to be moving after it has been killed; however seals have a swimming reflex that is active - even after death. This reflex falsely appears as though the animal is still alive when it is clearly dead - similar to the reflex in chickens.

Myth #3: Seals are not independent animals when they are killed - they still rely on their mothers and can't even swim or fend for themselves.

Reality: Only weaned, self-reliant seals are hunted after they have been left by their mothers to fend for themselves.

The vast majority of harp seals are taken after more than 25 days of age, after their white coat has moulted. Harp seals have the ability to swim at this stage of development. They are also opportunistic feeders and prey on whatever food source in readily available to them.

Myth #4: Countless seals that slip off the ice after being clubbed or shot are lost and never accounted for.

Reality: "Struck and lost" data from at-sea observers as well as the CVMA indicate that this is not true. In fact, the record of struck and loss for the Canadian commercial seal hunt stands at less than five per cent.

For one thing, most of the harp seals taken in Canada are hunted on the ice rather than in the water and this makes losses much lower than in places like Greenland. Second, harp seals that are hunted have very high levels of body fat, making them quite buoyant. That, coupled with the buoyant qualities of salt water, make it quite easy for sealers to retrieve a seal should they slip into the water after being shot.

Myth #5: The Canadian government is allowing sealers to kill nearly one million seals to help with the recovery of cod stocks.

Reality: Several factors have contributed to the lack of recovery of Atlantic cod stocks, such as fishing effort, poor growth and physical condition of the fish, and environmental changes. Seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod, therefore it is difficult to hold any one factor responsible for the decline in cod stocks.

In addition, there are many uncertainties in the estimates of the amount of fish consumed by seals. The commercial quota is established on sound conservation principles, not an attempt to assist in the recovery of groundfish stocks.

Myth #6: The club - or hakapik - is a barbaric tool that has no place in today's world.

Reality: Clubs have been used by sealers since the onset of the hunt hundreds of years ago. Hakapiks originated with Norwegian sealers who found it very effective. Over the years, studies conducted by the various veterinary experts, and American studies carried out between 1969 and 1972 on the Pribilof Islands hunt (Alaska) have consistently proven that the club or hakapik is an efficient tool designed to kill the animal quickly and humanely. A recent report in September, 2002, by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association, had results that parallel these findings.

Myth #7: The methods used to kill seals are far less humane than those used to hunt or slaughter any other domestic or wild animal.

Reality: Hunting methods were studied by the Royal Commission on Sealing in Canada and they found that the clubbing of seals, when properly performed, is at least as humane as, and often more humane than, the killing methods used in commercial slaughterhouses, which are accepted by the majority of the public.

Myth #8: The hunt is unsustainable.

Reality: Since the 1960's, environmental groups have been saying the seal hunt is unsustainable. In fact, the harp seal population is healthy and abundant. In excess of five million animals, the Northwest Atlantic seal herd is nearly triple what it was in the 1970s. DFO sets quotas at levels that ensure the health and abundance of seal herds. In no way are seals - and harp seals in particular - an "endangered species".

Myth #9: The "hunt" is simply a front for what is actually a cull aimed at reducing the population of harp seals.

Reality: The seal hunt is not a cull. It is a sustainable, commercially viable fishery based on sound conservation principles. In fact, the Department has adopted an Objective-Based Fisheries Management approach using control rules and reference points to establish management measures for the harp seal hunt. This process will facilitate a market-driven harvest that will enable sealers to maximize their benefits without compromising conservation. If the current three-year Total Allowable Catch (TAC) is fully taken, the population will still remain well above 70 per cent of its highest known abundance, found in the latest survey in 1999.

DFO takes a number of factors into consideration when establishing TAC levels for harp seals, including - ice conditions, pup mortality, natural mortality, incidental harvest or by-catch, the Greenland and Arctic hunts and commercial harvest levels.

Myth #10: The seal hunt provides such low economic return for sealers that it is not an economically viable industry.

Reality: The landed value of seals was $16 million in 2004. Pelt prices as high as $70 have recently been recorded. Seals are a significant source of income for some individual sealers. The money is earned over a very short period. Sealing also creates employment opportunities for buying and processing plants.

While sealing income may seem negligible by some US or European standards, sealers themselves have stated that their income from sealing can represent from 25-35 per cent of their total annual income. Sealing also represents benefits to thousands of families in Eastern Canada at a time of year when other fishing options are unavailable or limited at best, in many remote, coastal communities.

Myth #11: The Canadian government provides subsidies for the seal hunt.

Reality: The Government of Canada does not subsidize the seal hunt. Sealing is an economically viable industry. All subsidies ceased in 2001. Even before that time, any subsidies provided were for market and product development, including a meat subsidy, to encourage full use of the seal. In fact, government has provided fewer subsidies to the sealing industry than recommended by the Royal Commission on Sealing.

Myth #12: The seal hunt is not worth it - seals are only taken for their fur and the rest of the animal is wasted.

Reality: Seals have been harvested for food, fuel and shelter and other products for hundreds of years. The subsistence hunt is a valuable link to Canadian cultural heritage. Canada exports seal products in three forms: pelts, oil and meat. Traditionally, the pelts have been the main commodity, but production of seal oil for human consumption has grown substantially in recent years. Seal oil markets remain positive, and a large percentage of seal oil is finding its way into areas other than traditional marine and industrial oils.

DFO encourages the fullest use of seals, with the emphasis on leather, oil, handicrafts, and in recent years, meat for human and animal consumption as well as seal oil capsules rich in Omega-3. Any seal parts that are left on the ice provide sustenance to a wide variety of marine scavengers such as crustaceans, seabirds and fish.

Myth #13: The seal hunt is loosely monitored and DFO doesn't punish illegal hunting activity or practices.

Reality: The seal hunt is closely monitored and tightly regulated. Canada's enforcement of sealing regulations is thorough and comprehensive. Regulations and licensing policies stipulate hunting seasons, quotas, vessel size and methods of dispatch. Fishery Officers monitor the seal hunt in numerous ways to ensure sealers comply with Canada's Marine Mammal Regulations. They conduct surveillance of the hunt by means of aerial patrols, surface (vessel) patrols, dockside inspections of vessels at landing sites and inspections at buying and processing facilities. In 2004, Fishery Officers spent approximately 8600 hours monitoring and enforcing the hunt. In the last five years, 94 charges were laid and convictions were upheld in 57 of those cases.

Sealers are well trained in humane hunting methods and are, as a group, responsible and law abiding. Assumptions that large numbers of sealers are violating the laws and regulations governing the hunt are unfounded.

Myth #14: If sealers take more than their allotted quota, DFO simply further raises the quota for them.

Reality: The Government of Canada has strict conservation measures in place, and is committed to the careful management of all seals to ensure strong, healthy populations in the years to come. 2005 is the last year of a three-year harp seal hunt management plan. The harp seal TAC was set at 975,000 for 2003-2005 and it has not been raised. This multi-year management plan was developed in consultation with more than 100 stakeholders, including conservation groups, at the 2002 Seal Forum in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador.

There have been two instances when TACs were allowed to be exceeded to allow sealers disadvantaged by environmental conditions to have an opportunity to seal after good hunting in other areas had allowed the full TAC to be taken early.

These decisions were made only because the increased hunting would not jeopardize conservation and sustainability.

Myth #15: Anyone can get a licence - even those who have never hunted before, and there are no training requirements.

Reality: Before sealers can qualify for a professional licence they must obtain an assistant licence and work under the supervision of a professional sealer for two years. Individuals applying for a personal use licence must demonstrate they apply good sealing practices to ensure the seal is killed in a quick and humane fashion. Personal sealing licences will only be issued to individuals who had a licence, a valid hunter's capability certificate, or big game licence the previous year and who have attended a mandatory training session.

Myth #16: The majority of Canadians are opposed to the seal hunt.

Reality: Animal rights groups currently campaigning against the seal hunt cite a 2004 Ipsos-Reid poll stating that 71 per cent of Canadians are opposed to the hunt. In fact, Canadians support federal policies regarding the seal hunt. An Ipsos-Reid survey conducted in February 2005 concluded that 60 per cent of Canadians are in favour of a responsible hunt. The survey methodology and results of this poll are available on request.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/myth_e.htm

raingirl
March 29th, 2005, 12:56 PM
Having done my degree in Anthropology, and my course of study was canadian aboriginals (and Forensic Science) I can't say anything against the seal hunt. There are still MANY communities that rely on ALL parts of the seal for their survival. I feel that as long as it is being used for food, the bones for tools and things, and the skins for clothes, etc, then it is fine. Keep in mind, the only source of vitamin C in the northern aboriginal diets is fresh animal meat and blubber, unless vegetables are flown in.

I don't agree with any old joe schmoe going in and killing seal for fun or profit though.

Besides, wasn't there a huge increase in seals because of the low number allowed to be killed, which resulted in more fish eaten, and less fish to catch?

Maybe because of my background, I find it hard to be against something like that, as long as they are killing for a real purpose (food, clothes, tools, or even research). Personally, I am not apauled or grossed out by hunting or killing of animals. After you spend 4 years studying human behaviour and criminal investigations, you realise that humans have been killing meat for thousands of years to survive, and it's going to be a LONG time before that changes. I guess I'm a little desensitized though...

MegShawnMom
March 29th, 2005, 12:59 PM
Opened my eyes.

Lucky Rescue
March 29th, 2005, 01:05 PM
The landed value of seals was $16 million in 2004. Pelt prices as high as $70 have recently been recorded. Seals are a significant source of income for some individual sealers

That's the only part of this report I believe. The rest is self-serving babblespeak and I no more believe than I would believe a detailed report on how humane greyhound racing is, if the report came from the race track owners.

JMO.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 01:30 PM
None of the above information comes from anyone with a vested interest in the seal industry.

Here's the report written by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association.

http://canadianveterinarians.net/Documents/Resources/Files/130_2002_September_pg687.pdf

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 02:41 PM
All descriptions in the world,does not change the fact,it is a brutal killing...if the only reason for killing 300.000 seals was for the cod-fishery,why not shoot the seals,rather than clubbing them to death....NOBODY can convince me this is a humane way of killing,it's all for $$$$$ and for the many morons still feeling the need to wear dead animals.Natives of course excluded...

db7
March 29th, 2005, 02:54 PM
It's got nothing to do with cod.

And it's not about fur alone. It's about food, fuel, nutritional supplements.....

By your standard then Chico2, every cow, chicken and pig is killed inhumanely. Be honest, you don't really believe that do you?

They use the clubs because they are MORE HUMANE than shooting them. Read the CMVA report.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 03:05 PM
The Mexican government has just passed a motion denouncing the seal hunt. That's rich! Want to advocate for anti-cruelty? Contact your MP and insist that Canada adopt a motion denouncing Mexican bull-fighting. Now that's cruel.

happycats
March 29th, 2005, 03:14 PM
As long as pigs chickens, and cows are being raised for human consumption, Why the need to kill seals ??

Gazoo
March 29th, 2005, 03:26 PM
Db7,

Thanks for presenting some solid evidence from the other side of the debate. Although I'm sure many here will rail against it.

Gazoo
March 29th, 2005, 03:27 PM
The Mexican government has just passed a motion denouncing the seal hunt. That's rich! Want to advocate for anti-cruelty? Contact your MP and insist that Canada adopt a motion denouncing Mexican bull-fighting. Now that's cruel.

Thats hilarious!!! This coming for a country where many men prove their manhood by killing domestic animals :rolleyes: un-freakin-believable.

Jackie467
March 29th, 2005, 03:57 PM
Men in Mexico don't prove their manhood by killing domestic animals, I have no idea where you heard this but it is untrue and a very offencive derogative remark. My SO is Mexican and would never imagine such a thing and neither would his father who grew up in Mexico and did not leave until he was 42. Mexico does not hold bull fights anymore than the US or Canada does, that is Spain. My SO and all his family are from Mexico and have never heard of such a thing, they told me if they do have them in Mexico it's a localized thing to a certain city (probably a small one). Bull fights and bull runs are held in spain (pamplona is known for bull runs) along with other horrific events such as throwing goats from 4th story windows and hanging live chickens by their feet over the street and then people ride horses down the street and rip their heads off, these are preformed as some kind of celebration (who would want to be part of that celebration). I don't agree with any kind of inhumane killing whether it be seal hunts, bull fights, greyhound racing, goat drops, chicken decapitating, or rodeos (popular here in TX).

Gazoo
March 29th, 2005, 04:06 PM
Men in Mexico don't prove their manhood by killing domestic animals, I have no idea where you heard this but it is untrue and a very offencive derogative remark. My SO is Mexican and would never imagine such a thing and neither would his father who grew up in Mexico and did not leave until he was 42. Mexico does not hold bull fights anymore than the US or Canada does, that is Spain. My SO and all his family are from Mexico and have never heard of such a thing, they told me if they do have them in Mexico it's a localized thing to a certain city (probably a small one). Bull fights and bull runs are held in spain (pamplona is known for bull runs) along with other horrific events such as throwing goats from 4th story windows and hanging live chickens by their feet over the street and then people ride horses down the street and rip their heads off, these are preformed as some kind of celebration (who would want to be part of that celebration). I don't agree with any kind of inhumane killing whether it be seal hunts, bull fights, greyhound racing, goat drops, chicken decapitating, or rodeos (popular here in TX).


Ummmm there is mexican bullfighting....saw one in the flesh about 5 years ago.

There are also many many many dog fights there.

Many places in Mexico young men do kill dogs or cats to prove their manhood...documented fact. Check some animal rights groups for info.

Jackie467
March 29th, 2005, 04:14 PM
think i'll believe the people who lived there over the people who just talk and "document" it. In that case look for dog and bull fights in the US and Canada I gurentee you you'll find some. There are illegal here in the US and are also in Mexico, but that doesn't stop people from doing it. And many people kill domestic animals in the US and Canada and think it makes them manly, doesn't mean that is the norm here just as it isn't in Mexico. Look at the rate in which animals in the US and Canada are killed and abused, just look through this site and you'll see that it's not something that is only going on in Mexico, I promise. Just because some people do it in Mexico does not mean everyone does and to make a generalization like that is sterotyping. Just as if someone said that because the US has the highest murder rate means that everyone in the US is a murderer which is very untrue and sterotyping.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 04:40 PM
I don't doubt your SO and family are gentle people however it takes but a second to find the following tourist information websites.......

Bullfights every Wed. at 5 in Puerto Vallarta
http://www.virtualvallarta.com/vallarta/activities/bullfights.html

And in Mexico City on Sundays.....

http://www.citi-guide.com/mexico/m-juarez-bullfights.asp

"The traditional art of bullfighting is alive and well in Mexico. In fact, there are over 225 permanent bullrings scattered around the country. You can witness the spectacle just across the border from El Paso in Juarez at the Plaza de Toros Monumental Bullring on sporadic Sundays in the spring and summer."

"Ticket prices at the Plaza De Toros Monumental in Juarez range from $4 to $25. On hot days, spend the extra money for tickets on the shady side of the arena. Plaza De Toros Monumental is located at Paseo Triunfo de la Republica #4630, one block from the Rio Grande Mall. Tickets can be purchased in El Paso at the El Paso Trolley Company downtown at 1 Civic Center Plaza (915-544-0062) and close to the airport at Smitty's BBQ at 6219 Airport (915-772-5876) or at the bullring at the Plaza de Toros Monumental (01152 6566-13-16-56) in Juarez."

And to check the schedules, results and sign a petition against a proposed ban go here. (somehow I feel that won't get any support from this board)

http://www.bullfights.org/

A bull fighters website.

http://www.eljuli.com/

melanie
March 29th, 2005, 04:42 PM
i saw this on the weekend news in australia, i was just shocked, i really thought canada was beyond such things, well it is often said to be a foreward thinking and open minded country, perhaps in many areas they are.

but i did instantly realise why BSL is so popualr in canada and made it through (this issue always confused me), if this sort of animal abuse is conducted publicly i can imagine BSL is not really shocking or thought of as wrong in parliment, wow im sorry about your government, if they dont watch it they will end up as shameful as the aussie governemnt :p .

but i read about people staining the coats of the seals as it makes it useless as a retail item. but then i dont think that is so nice, but if it is non toxic and harmless it is a considerable option.

if i were you i would be down that beach like a shot and give those hunters a hell of a time, yes i know they need the money but that is why we create new industry in such areas. and get your government, make it an international issue and that may help stop it. bloody mongrels :yuck:

MegShawnMom
March 29th, 2005, 04:52 PM
I saw a bullfight in Spain in 1965,totally senseless.It is not a sport because the bull MUST DIE,regardless.He can not leave the ring alive.
Seal hunting is a rally cry for both sides.Everybody has fact and figures.As much as it grieves me to say I don't beleive the hunters nor the anti's,the government has the resources to get the facts.They have the most to gain or loss.
When this country gives up eating meat then we can say we're civilized until them join PETA.

Jackie467
March 29th, 2005, 04:57 PM
well it must not be commercialized being that people from Mexico City never heard of it. But it doesn't matter what bothers me is the remark about how the horrible Mexican men kill animals to show manhood, that would be like me saying that all canadian men kill baby seals to show manhood, It's a sterotype and not true of everone so all people can not be lumped in with it. I think bullfighting is barrbaric just as rodeos are. unfortunetly every country on this earth exploites animals in some way, but to say that all those people in those countries do this is wrong. Just as saying that every person in canada are horrible because some people there believe in clubbing baby seals to death. If it is truly because of overpopulation and fish problems then they could at least do it humainly and not make a commercialized sport day out of it. When I lived in PA my father hunted deer, it was to minimize the population before they ate themselves out of food and starved to death (much worst then getting shot, but I still feel that it's horrible because it's our fault they don't have enough food) and he would bring the venicine home and we would smoke it and eat it. It bothered me but I figured that at least he wasn't just going to kill a deer and then just leave it there to rot, I mean at least we did eat it. (but my father was a very bad shot and only ever got one deer lol).

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 05:02 PM
db7 I can read your reports until I am blue in the face,that does not change my opinion about this brutal practise one bit.
Also I would much rather have someone shoot me in the head than clubbing me to death,it's not as if the seals are a moving target,they just lay there waiting to be clubbed and skinned.
The carcases as has been reported mostly are left on the ice,not used for food or other purposes,unlike when our natives kill a seal.
Even if as you say,they do not club"cute little white babies"it's no less cruel clubbing grown seals,but I am sure the little ones are not being spared either.
I cannot speak for Mexico,but sure,I abhore bull-fighting or anything like it,where animals are being tortured for the enjoyment of humans,or some aged traditions.
Also here in Canada and the US,we are way behind most of the Western world in regards to Animal-Cruelty,if we have any laws protecting the lives of the animals we share our world with,it is 100 yrs old,viewing the animals solely as property,without feelings...be it dogs,cats,cows,pigs or seals.

Katze
March 29th, 2005, 05:04 PM
http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_050329_1.html :ca:

db7
March 29th, 2005, 05:08 PM
Melanie you haven't a clue what your talking about. The hunt takes place on remote sub arctic Islands and ice flows. I guess you could compare it to the middle of the outback. Except you can only get there by boat dodging icebergs or your dead.

There is no economic alternative for these people, most of whom are aboriginal and have an inalienable right to the practice.

Now if you want to disparage other governments call on the Danes. Iunderstand they allow the seal hunt to happen completely unregulated in Greenland.

And while you're at it can you please ask the Aussie fisherman to stop the illegal seabass fishing, it's endangered.

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 05:09 PM
Hurray,for the Farley Mowat and it's very brave crew :thumbs up
I saw them on the news last week,apparently someone had sabotaged their ship,so they could not get out in time.

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 05:12 PM
db7,mostly aboriginal???Where on earth did you get that from??Of all the"seal -hunters"I have seen,none was aboriginal.

Katze
March 29th, 2005, 05:21 PM
The protestations have nothing to do with aboriginal subsistence hunting. It is about commercial mass slaughter subsidized by our government with our taxes.
:ca:

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 05:26 PM
As for reading reports,I have no faith in reports...they are usually onesided.
If I believed everything I read from some"expert"Michael Bryant a good example,I would be terrified of those vicious pit-bulls,with jaws that lock and brains that outgrow their heads :crazy:
The seal-hunt is inhumane,it's a fact not hearsay,no matter how many reports you read..

db7
March 29th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Thanks for the update Katze. It is good to see or Coast Guard is enforcing the peoples legal right to hunt for a living.

Chico2 - "Sabotaged" LMFOA. Nice spin!

The Farley Mowat ship was SEIZED FOR NON-COMPLIANCE OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS

glasslass
March 29th, 2005, 05:29 PM
When I was in the 6th grade, my family went on a trip into Mexico and attended a bullfight in Guadalajara. The cape work was beautiful and graceful. Then the bull was taunted by men who stuck decorated, barbed sticks behind their upper neck in a big show of bravery. Then a man came out on a padded horse and with a long pole with a sharp end, thrust the end into the shoulder and down into the lung. One horse was knocked off it's feet by the bull and gored from underneath where the padding couldn't protect it. By the time the matador came out, the bull was tired and slowly his lungs filled up with blood. We walked out before the end. My parents had checked before going and were assured this was the national sport of Mexico and suitable for children. Blood sports are barbaric! How can anyone be entertained by watching an animal suffer? :mad:

db7
March 29th, 2005, 05:34 PM
You say you have no faith in reports but then you just take the reports by the extremist eco-groups in blind faith. You should be open to look at what others have to say that have studied the issues and are impartial.

As I mentioned earlier, you are holding on to a vision of what the industry was like 20 years ago before it was regulated.

Katze
March 29th, 2005, 05:36 PM
You're welcome db lots more to come, including video of this very humane and legal slaughter if you wish.

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 05:37 PM
db7,this is one argument nobody can win,least of all the seals..
Peoples rights violated??? You have to be joking,what about the animals rights to be treated as humanely as possible,time to wake up girl,this is 2005,not 1805!

melanie
March 29th, 2005, 05:37 PM
db7, you havent clue about manners. touchy touchy,dont want any other opinions in the threads do we? oh dear me :( i have no idea what upset you so in my post, it reads fine to me and the points you raise were not mentioned by me). i see no reason apart from your ego for you to be rude.


did i ever at any stage state that austraila was perfect, did i comment on other countries practices other than those in the topic, so are you saying i cant have an opinion because im not canadian? but those seals are a resource that are not owned by anyone, they may be governed and cared for by your government but you do not own natural resources. and yes there are plenty of things i dotn like and express to my fellow australians about our poor practices and expressin my life, but hey at least i can admit it :D

oh i am sorry, i did not realise i gave grid references for the hunting activities, i said canada mate, that is where it happens.

secoundly i have jsut finished a thesis in aboriginal tourism formation, that is a developing industry very popular with indigenous people and if they dotn want that, other industries can be developed, or are you implying that indigenous people are only good fror traditional industries such as hunting, i personally believe they have a brain as good as mine, and thus can create their own industries and move into new industries, with out the loss of culture, practices or self determination, but never mind that.

and if there is no economic alternative for these people, what will happen when the resource runs out (yes it can run out, for example- reasons for its loss could incude over hunting, pollution, climate change, habitiat loss and damage), resources dont last forever so new industry and creation is the way to keep food in their mouths when the resource is gone.

oh and i know australia is far south, but it really has not affected our brains, but amazingly we can get to the outback and there are thriving industries there and large cities too :rolleyes:

oh and my information comes from news sources in australia that are focusing on these issues, and im sure they source that info from your country and their media industries.

to disparage other governemtns, no i did not, i gave comment on my government who are crap and useless, with a warning to watch your gov or they may turn out as crap and evil as ours, so as an aussie and voter, i do feel it is my right to crap on my government, it is my country and life they screw, so i can say what i like about the howard gov.

well good luck canada, i hope you sort it out and it does not damage you too much, such as impacts in tourism and other related industries.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 05:50 PM
Katze, you're off-base, there are no Gov't subsidies and it is not a mass commercial operation. Licenses are issued to INDIVIDUALS after they have completed two years of apprenticeship and DFO training on humane treatment.

Show me how much money is used to subsidize the hunt.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 05:59 PM
Actually Chico2 the right to hunt these seals is constitutionally protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's the law. Like it or not. Back when the Govt' introduced the restrictive regulations the large commercial fisheries, in cahoots with the union, challenged the regulations as unconstitutional and it went all the way to the Supreme Court. The big fishery companies lost. The Court basically said the gov't had the right to exclude the big commercial companies from the hunt. And at the same time affirmed the constitutional right of the Inuit etc. to hunt.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Melanie,

I didn't mean to be short with you and should've been more explicit in my comments to you. I'm having trouble keeping up with the debate, it's about 10 to one i figure. if you read my posts around hear I think you'll see that I am not one to make personal attacks.

I was just trying to make the point that the opportunities are extremely limited for the people that live in the area and rely on the seal industry. The only other significant income besides the fishery is whale watching tourism and dog sled adventure tourism. Both of which are mature industries and are certainly not a ticket to a comfortable living. The population reaches 80% unemployment. There is just simply not much to live off there. Most of the other natural resources have collapsed due to overuse.

The seal industry has been studied top to bottom and went through a huge change to control it 20 years ago. The anti-fur group won this battle 20 years ago. They didn't get everything they wanted but they did force a lot of change for the better. The seal population is bigger and healthier than it has ever been, due to the tight restrictions.

That and the carribou is all there is left for a reliable protein supply.

As far as the future of our aboriginal people is concerned. I'm the last person that would disparage our Inuit and First Nations peoples. I'm all for self-determination, in fact I also wrote a paper on self-determination back in my university days. The only thing holding them back is our Ferderal Gov't. (And believe me, I'm much more likely to be arguing against our Gov't than for it).

The aboriginal population here is about 500,000, about 2 % of the population and our Gov't Indian Affairs Department (even the name is offensive) spends more than $10 Billion per year, about 12% of the national budget. It does nothing to help these people, it's a disaster. That's a whole other thread though.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 06:35 PM
Gotta go walk my dog so I don't get accused of cruelty.

Keep it coming folks!

happycats
March 29th, 2005, 06:45 PM
" HUNT FOR A LIVING" I don't get it ????
this is Canada, ,we have grocery stores and welfare, who the heck needs to hunt for a living ????? thats a big crock of ***** . this is the year 2005!!
There is NO VALID REASON, for a seal hunt!! $$$ for the pelts (greed) is the only reason it is being done! so enough bulls**t please !!

Lucky Rescue
March 29th, 2005, 07:06 PM
And it's not about fur alone. It's about food, fuel, nutritional supplements

Fuel? Really? Gee, I haven't heated or illuminated my home with seal oil in YEARS!:p

And yes, I understand that the seals are horrible voracious creatures who are solely responsible for eating ALL the codfish, not withstanding the fact that seals have been eating cod since before we arrived on this continent and never managed to deplete them or even come anywhere near cutting their numbers
. I guess the millions of tons of cod that greedy humans take each year has nothing to do with diminishing cod supplies hmmm? Nope, those dang seals!:rolleyes:

Does anyone really think seals would be killed it were not for the value of their pelts? These pelts are not used for fuel or food, but for VANITY and people are willing to pay BIG bucks to wear the skins of slaughtered creatures on their backs to boost their egos. Profits rule.

And yes there are atrocities going on all over. Does the fact that Mexico stages bull fights for entertainment make it okay for us to kill animals for fashion and whim?

Katze
March 29th, 2005, 07:11 PM
20 000 000 $ of public funds has subsidized the seal hunt in the last 7 years.
Publicly funded coast guard ships are used to break the ice for sealing vessels at the annual hunt. Public funds are used to develop new markets for seal products, as there is really very little demand for any of it. :ca:

Gazoo
March 29th, 2005, 07:23 PM
well it must not be commercialized being that people from Mexico City never heard of it. But it doesn't matter what bothers me is the remark about how the horrible Mexican men kill animals to show manhood, that would be like me saying that all canadian men kill baby seals to show manhood, It's a sterotype and not true of everone so all people can not be lumped in with it. I think bullfighting is barrbaric just as rodeos are. unfortunetly every country on this earth exploites animals in some way, but to say that all those people in those countries do this is wrong. Just as saying that every person in canada are horrible because some people there believe in clubbing baby seals to death. If it is truly because of overpopulation and fish problems then they could at least do it humainly and not make a commercialized sport day out of it. When I lived in PA my father hunted deer, it was to minimize the population before they ate themselves out of food and starved to death (much worst then getting shot, but I still feel that it's horrible because it's our fault they don't have enough food) and he would bring the venicine home and we would smoke it and eat it. It bothered me but I figured that at least he wasn't just going to kill a deer and then just leave it there to rot, I mean at least we did eat it. (but my father was a very bad shot and only ever got one deer lol).

No-one said "everyone' in Mexico does this, that or the other thing"...but it's a fact that Mexico is a second world country in which there are many, many more animal and human rights abuses than in Canada.

The point that Db7 and myself were making was that it is ludicrous for them to be making any statement about the CDN seal hunt when their own culture is rife with these abuses.

Sheeeessh :rolleyes:

Gazoo
March 29th, 2005, 07:29 PM
Melanie,

I didn't mean to be short with you and should've been more explicit in my comments to you. I'm having trouble keeping up with the debate, it's about 10 to one i figure. if you read my posts around hear I think you'll see that I am not one to make personal attacks.



Actually I'm really not bothered by the seal hunt either, especially after seeing and studying the information you posted. So it's about 10 to 2 :D

But then again I was raised on a farm and I understand the realities and necessities of animal husbandry and hunting .

I also eat meat, wear leather and I am not going to be a hypocrite and favour one animal over the others we kill and cull just because it's cute and fuzzy.

2Cats&AGolden
March 29th, 2005, 07:58 PM
Caution: Graphic

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=canada_seal_hunt&Player=wm&speed=_med

Gazoo
March 29th, 2005, 08:02 PM
The Farley Mowat ship was SEIZED FOR NON-COMPLIANCE OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS

R U serious??? If so I have a new defintion of irony!!!

Gazoo
March 29th, 2005, 08:09 PM
Caution: Graphic

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=canada_seal_hunt&Player=wm&speed=_med

Killing of any kind is never a pleasant or "sure thing".

db7
March 29th, 2005, 09:40 PM
Lucky Rescue,

I have said that cod has nothing to do with it. The studies show that the seals eat not just cod but other fish that are also cod predators. So there is not an imbalance.

That cod arguement was made by the fisheries simply to argue that if you don't close the seal fishery then you wouldn't have to close the cod fishery. This is a false argument not based on science. The cod fishery is in trouble due to overfishing not from seals eating the fish.

And Lucky, count yourself lucky to live in a place that is developed with infrastructure. Rather than a remote 3rd world community that is not on an electrical grid and may or may not have a diesel generator to power the village.

db7
March 29th, 2005, 09:59 PM
Yes, the eco-terrorists were not in compliance with oil pollution regulations.

http://novascotia.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=20050304SeaShepard

db7
March 29th, 2005, 10:17 PM
Happycats,

Yes, this is Canada, and unfortunately a significant portion of our population live in impoverished 3rd world conditions without grocery stores. Without proper nutrition and without sufficient housing.

I urge you to take a trip to Labrador to witness first hand how some people live, having to strip the panelling off the walls of their newly supplied homes in order to burn it for heat in the winter as it is the only fuel supply they can get their hands on.

melanie
March 30th, 2005, 01:21 AM
db7, im just a fiesty little thing some days, you will note my frequent rants and raves its jsut the nature of things and boy do i love to rant :p .

your comment about dog abuse was very funny, certainly made me laugh :D .

the way i see it, if this act is practiced by indigenous peoples following their traditions and culture (lets not get into evolution of cultural practices, sheesh thats a biggy) then i dont have a huge problem with it as long as they are supporting themselves and not over hunting, oh and that the gov dont take their earnings (ha a joke :rolleyes: ).

but i dont know about it if it is just your average hunter that is non indig doing it for a trade or seasonal trade, hmmmm it is a big issue and would make for a fascinating study if you can detach emotionally.

chico2
March 30th, 2005, 10:22 AM
db7,you are trying to convince us this is a matter of survival and sustenance for our native people,that is simply not true.
It's an organized,seasonal masskilling for the furtrade alone.
Sure,maybe there are a few natives aboard these ships,but I am certain they are not the ones benefitting from the $70-$100/pelt the clubbers recieve.
I have followed this slaughter for many,many years and I see no humane improvement,government regulations or not,the method of killing has not change in more than 20 yrs..it's still a horrific practice in the name of profit.
As for what other countries do or don't has nothing to do with Canada,no animal-cruelty is ok,but this is Canada's shame and it should be stopped.
But like all the other years,once the quota(who is counting?)of 300.000-400.000 seals is filled and the blood washed off the ice,this masskilling will once again be forgotten by most,until the same time next year :sad:

Also yes,I believe more in the "eco-groups"than any reports from our government,I believe in what I've seen over the years,or are you saying videos and films are lying no matter what the source.It might be an emotional issue with me,heck,it is an emotional issue,I cry for those poor animals and their incredibly cruel demise.

Ga76
April 12th, 2005, 07:48 PM
db7... That was a wonderful commercial for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and for the commercial exploiting of animals in general. Anyone interested can go to the following websites http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/general/default.aspx?oid=3 http://protectseals.org/ watch the videos taken of the baby seals being killed, read the journals of what the people on the ice saw, and then decide for yourself if this is acceptable behavior towards animals.

And what about the seals being clubbed to death in front of each other? The ones being killed in front of their mothers? Is this part of the "humane treatment" you're talking about? Do you really expect anyone to buy that?
Also, within the last three years of this hunt, an independent international team of veterinarians examined the corps of skinned seals and found up to 40% didn't have sufficient skull injuries to have caused death. That means they were conscious while being skinned, again, some of them in front of other seals. This directly opposes the findings of the report issued by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association.

db7
April 15th, 2005, 07:01 PM
Once again, the Eco-terrorists are proven to have no credibility.

Journalist fired for writing lies about the seal hunt (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=industryNews&storyID=8197829&pageNumber=0)

BEAR_NZ
April 25th, 2005, 01:40 AM
this topic is really sad.i find it just unbearable to think about. the cruelest animal is truly the human animal... :sad:

happycats
April 25th, 2005, 07:50 AM
Happycats,

Yes, this is Canada, and unfortunately a significant portion of our population live in impoverished 3rd world conditions without grocery stores. Without proper nutrition and without sufficient housing.

I urge you to take a trip to Labrador to witness first hand how some people live, having to strip the panelling off the walls of their newly supplied homes in order to burn it for heat in the winter as it is the only fuel supply they can get their hands on.

IMO
With welfare, Child tax benefits, GST credits, (and so many extra tax bonuses for Native people) there is no excuse for this!

chico2
April 25th, 2005, 09:09 AM
Happycats,db7 keeps mentioning our natives,once again I'd like to point out,that so far I have not seen any proof of how this slaughter benifits any natives.
I agree,many live in deplorable conditions,but the multy million $$$ furindustry and the killers are the only one benefitting from this outrage.
The natives hunt seals,for clothing and food,but not 400.000 and usually not by clubbing them or skinning them alive...so give it up db7,this is one argument you cannot win...The annual sealhunt is without a doubt a big bruise on Canadas reputation and should be abolished.

kandy
April 25th, 2005, 05:58 PM
I knew that seals were culled (or however the government wants to spin it) but I didn't have any idea of the numbers. Although I live in a region where hunting is prevalent (my family has always hunted) I can't bring myself to kill any animal. I don't have any problem eating the meat - but I can't kill them - I guess that makes me a hypocrite. I do think that governments need to rethink some of the things they allow or condone. Many people here go on "Coyote" hunts where they can legally bait and shoot as many as they want. I find it deplorable - and not just because I owned a coyote for 16 years. I totally hate trophy hunting and truly believe that if you are not going to eat it, then don't kill it. I sympathize with all of you who would like to see this stopped. Government entities just seem to make the problem worse while they are trying to correct the last screw up. Unchecked mass killings almost made the wolf extinct in the US and then when the government decided that the wolf was endangered, they started trying to breed them and then release them back into areas where they used to live. One of these is Yellowstone National Park. The wolves have been there for a couple of years, and have bred and have moved to different areas outside of the park. Ranchers are having problems with them killing cattle. Now the government is going to allow wolf hunting again. Animal cruelty happens in all countries in one form or another.