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thinking of Suing

slavetomypets
March 23rd, 2005, 07:25 PM
Hello All, We came here for help... has anyone sued a breeder for breech of contract? What are the proceedings for sueing a dog breeder? We bought a bull dog puppy from a first time breeder who is reg'd with the ckc, and who is being guided by another reg'd breeder who is more experenced. (So we were not dealing with a puppy mill) We bought the puppy last January, my husband and i had 2nd pick of the litter and we chose a playfull little boy. (He was our baby, as we decided not to have children.) Everything was great until one day in april (just weeks shy of his 6th month) he had his dinner and went into the back yard. He colapsed and was choking on his own food. He was rushed to the emerg clinic and died on the operating table a few hours later. We then took him to Guelph university (for an autopsy) the results we that he has hypertropy of the left ventricle. (the left side of his heart was too think to properly pass blood).
Our written contract was for one year health, if the dog should die (they requested an autopsy) A replacement puppy is to be given. Well she has since had another litter, and all the puppies except one has died. When i asked her about that puppy it had major health problems so i refused to take it. Around Christmas time i called her again to see what the update on her breeding program is, she offered us our money back. So we have been waiting for our $2,500. I talked to her this week and she stated that she dosen't know when she will get the money together. She also is hoping that we just wait until october for her next litter, and she will give us another puppy, because that is all that is promised. (she told us she doesn't have to give us our money back, just another puppy) From what I was told is that our puppy died of a heart condition that is hereditary. We just want our money back, so we can get another puppy from a another breeder. Do we have to take another puppy from her or can we sue for our money?
any thoughts would be greatly appericated

coppperbelle
March 23rd, 2005, 08:26 PM
First let me say how sorry I am that you had to go through this. It sounds to me like there may be something wrong with either the mom or dad dog. Too many flags go off for me. She is a first time breeder, your pup had a hereditary problem, all the pups in the litter died, except one and he was sick.
Have you thought of small claims court? I would think there has to be a reasonable time limit on getting a replacement puppy . A judge may side with you because you have been waiting so long for resolution to your problem. You did mention that she offered you money, right? Now she is changing her mind? How often is she breeding this mom anyways? I don't think I would even want a puppy from her at this point.

Lucky Rescue
March 23rd, 2005, 08:38 PM
Yes, sue her. She is wrong - you are not obligated to take a new puppy, and I sure don't blame you for not wanting another one from this person. You can get your money back. If her contract states you can only get a replacement puppy, it doesn't matter since this contract is self-serving for her and is NOT the law. I hope you don't let her get away with this.

I know this wont' bring your puppy back to life, but it may make this person think about what she is doing. Breeding bulldogs is extremely difficult and not for novices.

What health testing against genetic defects and what titles did the parents of your puppy have?

CKC registration means virtually nothing at all as far as quality and health go.

ETA: Make sure you have a written report from your vet on the cause of your puppy's death - not just a vet bill. If he feels it was genetic or hereditary, make sure he adds that to his report.

meb999
March 23rd, 2005, 09:32 PM
SUE SUE SUE!!!

The amount is small enough to go to small claims court (at least it is in Qc, but I'm sure it's about the same in ON) Just call the city and ask where their small claims court is (if you don't already know where it is). Then you go to the court and they'll give you all the paper work to fill out.

Before doing that, might I suggest putting him in default. this means writting him a letter which includes the following:
1- detailed history (date of purchase, date of death of the dog, date of autopsy, when you asked for your money back, etc, etc)
2- clause in your contract which he has breached (you repeat what is written in your contract)
3- you end the letter saying that because of these reasons you feel you are entitled to your money back, and that this is the last step before you take the matter into the courts.
Send this letter by registered mail

Putting someone in default usually scares them enough to pay you right away, it shows that you mean business. If they don't get scared and don't pay, it proves your good faith to a judge.

If you want, you can send me a copy of your letter by pm, and I can tell you if it's ok before you send it....

Good luck!

CyberKitten
March 24th, 2005, 12:31 AM
I agree- sue. She was a novice and she should have noticed immediately (or het vet should have) that this puppy had a heart defect. That can be determined quite early tho not always. It is worrying that she would continue to breed the mother after the first health problems so litigation by you would serve to help others, I hope!

Most reputable breeders - and while she is just on the fringe inmho - (was this a champion she'd bred, why would she have bred a dog with obvious defects? - you may find that out in court and she will be out of biz). That said, if she has not sold her puppies, you may have difficulty getting the money but at least you might have the satisfaction of outing her for the terrible breeder she is. There are all kinds of red flags in the scenario you expressed - most pointed to by others.

I would take the money - if you get it - and buy a dog from a breeder with lots of experience and whose dogs are well known on the show circuoy. Ask to see their health records. A good breeder will not mind.

Good luck! And I am so sorry for your loss!!!

Dahlia
March 24th, 2005, 07:54 AM
OMG! Those people shouldn't keep breeding those dogs, if they're all coming out with health problems. Sounds like they don't have breeding quality dogs to start with. I would absolutely sue them and turn them into the authorities so that they can make them have those poor dogs altered.

CyberKitten
March 24th, 2005, 10:30 AM
Can I ask why you paid so much for the dog? That price also seems excessive!

Dahlia
March 24th, 2005, 11:42 AM
Can I ask why you paid so much for the dog? That price also seems excessive! That price seemed ridiculous to me, too. I certainly wouldn't take another pup from those people.

mafiaprincess
March 24th, 2005, 12:10 PM
I wouldn't want another pup from that breeder either.

I personally wouldn't pay that much for a dog, but in talking to people lately 2,500 seems to be a fairly standard price for bull dog pups. But, they are usually from titled parents with proper health testing (not sure if the OP's breeder has shown her dog(s) or what testing they did...) I find the price steep, but when I inquired to people who paid that much, I was told that some of it has to do with needing regular c sections because they have heads often too large t obirth naturally.

Lucky Rescue
March 24th, 2005, 12:54 PM
$2500 for a well bred English Bulldog is not expensive at all, if the parents have been health tested and shown.

I was told that some of it has to do with needing regular c sections because they have heads often too large to birth naturally.

This is correct. Breeding EB's the right way is a very expensive hobby!

mona_b
March 24th, 2005, 07:00 PM
So sorry for your loss. :(

As it was asked by others,did the Dam have any health and genetic testing done?Was this a champion or titled dog?What about the Dam?Or the Sire and Dam of the parents?Does this other breeder know what is happening with these pups?Where you put on a spay/neuter or Non-Breeding contract?

Yes,you can definately sue this so called breeder.And I would definately do it.Keep all the vet statements and papers.

Also,since all reputable breeders/kennels are registered with the CKC,I would definately get a hold of the CKC and let them know what is going on.

I have been an active member with the CKC.If you want,pm me with the info about this breeder and her kennel name(if she has one) and also the other breeder who is guiding this one.I will look into it for you. :)

This person should NOT be breeding. :mad: :evil:

Gazoo
March 24th, 2005, 07:44 PM
Sorry for your loss. Very sad situation. I'm not a lawyer, but I have some experience with business/contract law. In a perfect world you'd get your money back...

but......

Under contract law the warranty you accepted with the purchase contract, is the warranty you get.

In this case a similar/equal quality replacement puppy.

If the purchase contract warranty stipulates a puppy to replace the unhealthy one that died, I'm not sure that you'll have much success in court getting your money back, unless they are breaching the contract and refusing you a new puppy.

Most importantly is there a stipulation in the contract for the length of time they have to offer you a new puppy.

Alll that said....a well worded and assertive letter from your lawyer threatening to sue for loss, costs and damages might be worth the money spent!!!!

Good Luck

mona_b
March 24th, 2005, 07:55 PM
I agree.....BUT,in this case she has a chance.This so called breeder is producing sick puppies.And she has every right to not accept any puppy from this person.And has every right to get her money back.

Lucky Rescue
March 24th, 2005, 08:13 PM
The law also states that whatever you purchase (a puppy in this case) must be fit to use for what it was intended. The puppy was intended to be a pet, and a puppy that dies from heart failure or has a genetic defect is not fit for that purpose.

The law sees dogs as any other "merchandise". If you buy a TV, and it conks out after a few weeks, the merchant must give you your money back OR give you a new TV, but the choice is yours, even if your bill of sale says "Replacement only" as this is store policy but NOT the law.

Gazoo
March 24th, 2005, 08:21 PM
The law also states that whatever you purchase (a puppy in this case) must be fit to use for what it was intended. The puppy was intended to be a pet, and a puppy that dies from heart failure or has a genetic defect is not fit for that purpose.

The law sees dogs as any other "merchandise". If you buy a TV, and it conks out after a few weeks, the merchant must give you your money back OR give you a new TV, but the choice is yours, even if your bill of sale says "Replacement only" as this is store policy but NOT the law.


Good luck trying to get your money back on a TV after using it for 6 months.

Boisian
March 24th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Often a letter with attorney letterhead will be all you need to resolve this issue. Most of the time lawyers are willing to write letters for a small fee or no fee at all in the hopes of bringing you back for business (it's happened with us in the past). Lawyers have a way to make people sit up and take notice. If this person thinks they will have a hard time coming up with the $2500, that's going to be nothing compared to what it will cost them for a lawyer and then they might need to pay back the money (at the very least give up another puppy). It might be a first step before you launch into a law suit. However, I don't know the laws there so take this advise with a grain of salt.

After hearing the cost of a bull dog, I'm so glad I like pit bulls ;) . Wow - $2500. However, I have heard that they are very expensive in the states as well. :eek:

I'm so sorry for your lose and all the pain this has caused you. I hope you are able to resolve this issue quickly and put an end to this stress and pain. Good luck to you!

matt
March 25th, 2005, 09:21 AM
I think at the end of the day it is buyer beware but you trusted them and they let you down. I do not think it is right what has happened. I agree with sending a letter officially. You can go to small claims but if she has no $$$ good luck. Can you appeal to the more experienced breeder that is mentoring her? They could explain the real cost of a bad rep in the breeding business. Do not count on the CKC as they have no real power and they DO NOT ensure quality just because you are registered with them. Anyone can get membership. :(

badger
March 25th, 2005, 09:58 AM
If she is registered as a business and doesn't have the cash, I believe the court can seize assets to the value of the debt and sell them at auction. If the promised 'product' is faulty, then she has not lived up to the contract and can be sued. It is a long process but there are several points where she can stop it by complying with the judge's order (assuming her/his decision goes in your favour). If you have the stomach for it, and if you win, your costs will be covered (by the breeder) as part of the judgement. I think it would be a good lesson: this is not only a lousy way to do business - if she were an honest breeder, the money would be in your bank already - but a lousy way to treat animals. The first letter is key, laying out all the facts and why you think she has not complied with the contract. If it is convincing enough - no need to lie - she might pay up immediately.

mona_b
March 25th, 2005, 10:35 AM
Do not count on the CKC as they have no real power

NO they don't have real power,they do have some though.If this person is registered with them(kennel)then there are rules that must be upheld with the CKC as registered kennel members.Therefor,they should be contacted about this person.They can be very strict at times.

matt
March 25th, 2005, 11:26 AM
Mona, what CKC rules is this breeder actually breaking? This kind of issue is not unheard of even with current breeders registered by the CKC. I would think the CKC stance would probably be what the breeder is offering...... a replacement which is usually the only option most breeders offer. Never mind that this one's ethics are a issue. After all the CKC is supported by breeders.

Gazoo
March 25th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Can you appeal to the more experienced breeder that is mentoring her? They could explain the real cost of a bad rep in the breeding business. Do not count on the CKC as they have no real power and they DO NOT ensure quality just because you are registered with them. Anyone can get membership. :(


Thats a really good idea. That more expereinced breeder should probably take some responsibility in this mess!!!

MegShawnMom
March 25th, 2005, 12:01 PM
Years ago we got a lab from a breeder as a pup, 1 year later he died.We contacted the breed and he felt bad and the best he could do was to offer a replacement.We declined,just wanted him to know what happened,we never asked for our money back.
There are some rescues that do not refund ,regardless,some will offer a replacement,no money.We sign a contract understanding this,we should live with it the same as the breeder or rescurer.From what Iam reading the breeder is trying to hold up to their contract thay you signed.
Yes, I'am sorry this happened,it is awful

Lucky Rescue
March 25th, 2005, 01:02 PM
It all on why this puppy died. If it was from something YOU did, or failed to do, that's one thing. I know of someone who tried to get their money back after their Dobie puppy died after being left outside in January. :mad:

If it died from a genetic defect or illness that was present at the time of purchase, then you should get your money back, since this is the breeder's fault.

Your vet can tell you if this was the case.

Good luck trying to get your money back on a TV after using it for 6 months

I took a TV back after two months, when it stopped working. It needed repairs and since I didn't agree that something this new should need repairs, I demanded and got my money back. How easy this is to do depends on how reputable the dealer is.

MegShawnMom
March 25th, 2005, 01:18 PM
when you got the puppy did you take it to your vet for a health checkup and what did your vet say?

matt
March 25th, 2005, 02:01 PM
Providing a replacement pup is the most common standard for this situation. As was mentioned earlier , the breeder , by offering a replacement, IS living up to the contractual agreement. There are not many breeders that offer $$$ refunds even for health issues. Replacing the pup is the standard out there regardless of what we think should happen in our hearts.

Lucky Rescue
March 25th, 2005, 02:09 PM
Matt I agree that replacing the puppy certainly is standard practice, but that is what it is, merely a policy, and is NOT the law.

Our written contract was for one year health, if the dog should die (they requested an autopsy) A replacement puppy is to be given. Well she has since had another litter, and all the puppies except one has died. When i asked her about that puppy it had major health problems so i refused to take it

No reasonable person or court would expect the OP to take another puppy from this person, assuming any live ones are to be had.

matt
March 25th, 2005, 02:18 PM
Valid point Lucky, I agree. I hope a resolution can be found.

MegShawnMom
March 25th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Why have a contract if it can't be honoured?Have we actually seen a copy and a lawyer looked to see if it is standard.
Lucky if a person decides to violate your adoption contract what can you do about it? Have you had to go to court to enforce its terms?

Lucky Rescue
March 25th, 2005, 03:16 PM
Lucky if a person decides to violate your adoption contract what can you do about it? Have you had to go to court to enforce its terms?

Luckily it's never come to that, but it could! But most of the terms of our contract are to protect the animals and not us. Naturally, we have no knowledge of the history or breeding of the stray animals we adopt out and we are a non profit organization so the above situation is really not comparable.

Again, anyone may make a contract saying "No Refunds" but that is a self serving clause and policy and NOT the law.

MegShawnMom
March 25th, 2005, 03:21 PM
I understand what your saying, you cannot guarentee the health of the animal, that makes sense,rightfully so. How can any breeder guarentee the health of their animals. Read above and you can see I had that happened.
You see all the time where people want rescues/breeders to help pay for vet bills,etc, what whould you do if somebody gave you a bill for $1000 vetting for an animal you adopted that turned out to have a disease? would you go to your contract and say, sorry but no.

amber416
March 25th, 2005, 03:52 PM
megshawnmom, i see what you're saying to luckyrescue but i really don't think you can even make a fair comparison between rescues and breeders in any aspect of the adoption/selling process. Rescues get, what, 100/200 dollars for an animal wich i assume barely helps these non profit organizations stay afloat what with medical expenses and everything else they have to pay for, and breeders (this one, anyway) are pulling in 2500 per puppy. They are too different to compare in such a neutral way, in my opinion.

slavetomypets, i am so sorry about what happened to your baby and i agree that you should get your money back. Whatever you decide to do, i hope everything works out for you and you eventually find a new, HEALTHY furbaby to love.

MegShawnMom
March 25th, 2005, 04:27 PM
What I'am really trying to say is a contract is a contract and you have to stand by it.If the breeder says a replacement only,you signed the contract and have now agreed to the terms. Regardless of the fee involved,$2500 or $100-200, its not the point.The health of the pup at the time was okay(we assume till we find out what the vet says at the time of sale)
example
If Lucky adopted out a cat that turned out to be very ill ($1500)can she be forced to pay for the vet bill regardless of its contract terms and limitations.Her contract says no refunds and she is not responsible for the health of the animal after it leaves their possession,standard-and thats the way it should be-no lliability
To force the breeder to reimberse the fee is to ask the rescue to be responsible for all medical care after adoption. Don't say it won't happen,there is always a possibility.

Being a nonprofit organization does not protect you in the courts,it means mostly that you don't have to pay taxes(at least in Ontario) and you are registered with the government,otherwise you are considered a sole proprietor-just like a business and subject to taxation.
We had a case involving a baseball league that got sued for an injury, the league stated that the sign up form gave the n.p. league protection against such lawsuits.Guess what, they lost and was forced to pay over $50,000, they were lucky and had -by law- an insurance policy that paid,the town had to pay 1/2 and the president and vice president were to pay $5000- which the insurance company ended up having to pay.
Small point,yes, but its there and we should all be carefull in rescue.Best to check with a lawyer to see who is protected and from what and most of all make sure your contract is binding. Sorry for rambling

Prin
March 25th, 2005, 04:40 PM
As far as I know, when you adopt a dog from the SPCA, if you have a problem with it health-wise, you are supposed to go to their vet. If you go somewhere else, the guarantee doesn't pay. When we got our doggy fixed at our vet because the spca wouldn't do it, they wouldn't cover the costs, no matter how hard we tried (we didn't sue though...) but it seems too, that when you get a pet from a shelter, you expect vet bills at first. You don't know what the history is, you don't know what the genetics are... If you're missing the logic and reasoning when you adopt a pet, chances are the healthiest one won't work out for you.

Of course in this case, I feel that the breeder guaranteed a HEALTHY, tested and genetically certified pet and there appears to be no way that she can follow through with her end of the contract. Wanting the money back is a result of the vendor not fulfilling their part of the deal.

MegShawnMom
March 25th, 2005, 05:01 PM
We don't know if all the necessary test were done, the exact wording of the pups guaranteed and the terms of the contract.What we do know(from what we are told) part of the contract is that the original pup can be exchanged due to illness or death.The vendor is upholding their end of the terms of the contract, the buyer is rejecting those terms and doesn't want an exchange.I don't think the courts will side with her.

When you go into a store and see a sign== All sales final,no refund ,exchange only you have the choice to live with the conditions
or to leave.Regardless if the item is flawed,you agreed to the terms.
I would think that the breeders have had the contract written up by a lawyer to prevent any possibility of a lawsuit.Most likely from the CKC or AMK.Hopefully the new breeder will have their problem worked out and can give her a healthy pup in the future.
Maybe if she goes to the breeder they may be able to come to a deal.

Prin
March 25th, 2005, 05:27 PM
When you go into a store and see a sign== All sales final,no refund ,exchange only you have the choice to live with the conditions

In Quebec, we have "Protection des Consommateurs" and regardless of what signs there are in whatever store, this govt organization trumps them. If a door-to-door guy comes over and sells you crap and you change your mind, you have 10 days in Quebec to get your money back. All these stores with the signs "No refund after 7 days" are in violation of that and get away with is because people don't know the law. It's the same thing when you buy something under $10 at the grocery store and it scans in wrong. Here you are supposed to get it free, but most cashiers will just change the price to what it is supposed to be-- even though there is a sign posted on most cashes stating what the law is. People can make whatever return and refund policies they like but the government is the one that will be followed in a legal situation. It's just up to us to research what that is before buying.

MegShawnMom
March 25th, 2005, 05:48 PM
In Ontario we have a simular law but not as long a time.
As you say,people have to do their homework and at $2500 maybe have somebody have a good look at the contract.

matt
March 25th, 2005, 06:24 PM
From your average breeders perspective there are NEVER any sure things with health of pups. All the genetic testing in the world can be done and it WILL NOT 100% guarantee a healthy pup. Testing, screening can be great indicators of offspring health but still sadly things can turn out poorly. Call it natural selection , mother nature, but this the reality. Most breeders go to great lengths to screen out issues but alas there is sometimes no control.
Now I'm talking about responsible breeders. It sounded to me like they bred these dogs more than once and THAT is irresponsible breeding!
In the breeding world the breeder is contractually providing an alternative even though we all FEEL they should do more. Again, most breeders would offer a alternative dog and NOT a $$ refund regardless. :(

goldenblaze
March 25th, 2005, 06:26 PM
Even paws r us kennel gives one yr guarantee and if something happens to the pup that can be proven with Vet note that can not be healed or fix with meds then they do give replacement pup...no money given back for pup. From what I understand as long as they offer to give pup from next litter they are doing as asked. The contract is signed and must be honored, never any guarantee with replacement pup so you take your chances I guess.... I have with Blaze as my replacement pup.

CyberKitten
March 25th, 2005, 06:35 PM
I do not know any reputable breeder who makes money or profit from their work. They show their dogs or cats and breed only in order to improve the breed or the standard. It may cost you more than a pet store or a backyard breeder but you should get an animal whose health is guranteed for a certain set period (A good breeder would not intentionally breed for ex an animal with any medical problem!!!). I really wonder if this breeder was legit in the first place!

matt
March 25th, 2005, 06:54 PM
Problem is determining just what a legit breeder is. They certainly are not experienced and they seem to lack integrity in my books. You really have to do your homework on this.

CyberKitten
March 25th, 2005, 07:07 PM
It is not easy but can be done. It can take a year even but if you do the show circuit and learn who the legit breeders are - who can be trusted, who cares and is honest - you can discover the best breeders.

Lucky Rescue
March 25th, 2005, 08:21 PM
In Quebec, we have "Protection des Consommateurs" and regardless of what signs there are in whatever store, this govt organization trumps them. If a door-to-door guy comes over and sells you crap and you change your mind, you have 10 days in Quebec to get your money back. All these stores with the signs "No refund after 7 days" are in violation of that and get away with is because people don't know the law.

This is exactly what I've been saying! If there is an applicance liquidation "All sales Final, blah blah" and you take a stove home and it doesn't work you ARE entitled to get your money back no matter what the store policy is. \

Store policy, standard breeder's contract - does not matter. Laws are in place to protect consumers from being ripped off.

IF the OP has signed a contract saying "I understand that this puppy could have a fatal genetic illness from bad breeding and could die before it's a year old and I agree to assume that risk and will never ask for reimbursement of purchase price OR vet bills"' MAYBE this breeder could away with it. I doubt very much she signed anything to that effect.

You really have to do your homework on this.

That would certainly save a lot of heartache and financial burden AND would put the bad breeders out of business.

Gazoo
March 25th, 2005, 08:39 PM
This is exactly what I've been saying! If there is an applicance liquidation "All sales Final, blah blah" and you take a stove home and it doesn't work you ARE entitled to get your money back no matter what the store policy is.

Store policy, standard breeder's contract - does not matter. Laws are in place to protect consumers from being ripped off.

IF the OP has signed a contract saying "I understand that this puppy could have a fatal genetic illness from bad breeding and could die before it's a year old and I agree to assume that risk and will never ask for reimbursement of purchase price OR vet bills"' MAYBE this breeder could away with it. I doubt very much she signed anything to that effect.
That would certainly save a lot of heartache and financial burden AND would put the bad breeders out of business.


Consumer laws are province specific. The OP is in Ontario, not Quebec,

Besides:

1) this is 6 months after the contract was agreed to...not 10 days.

2) the agreement is most likely between 2 individuals not a corporation and a consumer.

My opinion in the matter is still.... that contract law will take precedence:

and since the OP AGREED to the contractual obligations in dealing with this breeder.....

(The remedy for an unhealthy or deceased dog is a replacement....not a refund of the purchase price.)

The OP will have to accept the remedy the contract stipulates.

The only way that the OP can get a different remedy than a replacement is to PROVE in court that what they got wasn't what they AGREED to in the contract......which will be exceedingly tough to do after 6 months, especially since pets sometimes die of genetic or other diseases.

Prin
March 25th, 2005, 09:23 PM
If the breeder is agreeing to give another pup, that proves that the breeder accepts that they are in the wrong here. What matters now is proving that the breeder cannot provide a pup that is better "quality" than the first one-- that is the breeder's side of the agreement. That is the real issue. Not whether the pup died because of genetics-- offering a new pup confirms that the breeder is aware of the disease in her dogs.

Gazoo
March 25th, 2005, 09:44 PM
If the breeder is agreeing to give another pup, that proves that the breeder accepts that they are in the wrong here. What matters now is proving that the breeder cannot provide a pup that is better "quality" than the first one-- that is the breeder's side of the agreement. That is the real issue. .


You're bang on, but that will be a tough row to hoe. How can the OP prove that this breeder cannot provide a healthy puppy?

The litter where supposedly all but one died would have to be proven or it's just hearsay.

Prin
March 25th, 2005, 10:26 PM
Maybe she could try to contact other people who may have bought a puppy from this breeder (If that is at all possible).... I'm gonna have to think about that... How about the breeder's vet? Wouldn't he know something?

Gazoo
March 25th, 2005, 11:00 PM
Maybe she could try to contact other people who may have bought a puppy from this breeder (If that is at all possible).... I'm gonna have to think about that... How about the breeder's vet? Wouldn't he know something?

Prin,

It would also be important to know how many siblings the deceased puppy had in it's litter and their health status.

Another salient point is that we have only heard one side of the story and sorry to say but the story does seem very biased in favour of the OP.

Prin
March 25th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Well, in this case, I think it would have been hard for the OP to be biased to the breeder... lol :)

matt
March 26th, 2005, 09:06 AM
Also just because a breeder shows their dogs DOES NOT mean that they are a GOOD breeder with integrity. I could share some stories about WELL KNOWN show kennels right here in Ontario that would suprise you. This area is very much "BUYER BEWARE" which is why it should take sometimes years to find a good line AND good breeder.

Lucky Rescue
March 26th, 2005, 10:38 AM
Also just because a breeder shows their dogs DOES NOT mean that they are a GOOD breeder with integrity

VERY true!!

An old friend of mine bought a Westie puppy from what she called "the best breeder in Ontario." I asked what made him the best. She said because he had lots of ribbons.

BUT when you are pumping out 50 puppies a year one of them is bound to win SOMETHING.

Her puppy had serious temperament problems, very poor conformation, eye malformations, and a liver shunt. The breeder didn't care. :rolleyes:

MegShawnMom
March 26th, 2005, 02:00 PM
It would be an idea to check out the CKC to read their Code of Ethics to see if the breeder had violated their terms.To access the bylaws woould require being registered,so unless somebody is a breeder we won't know what this breeder has acutually done wrong.
I would also imagine that being a member of the CKC she would have ample insurace coverage-standard protection-just like if you were a dog trainer.
To sue would be met with a room full of 'their' insurance company lawyers.

matt
March 26th, 2005, 05:28 PM
To my knowledge that kind of insurance is not held by breeders but I could be wrong. Yeah, temperment is something that honestly is not the highest priority for many show breeders I agree. My own brother has a weimieraner that is a AM/CAN Champion( what ever that is suppose to mean). He looks beautiful but is a disobedient , aggressive( has lightly bit 2 joggers) numbskull. He cannot be around strange children etc.. What a waste in my opinion. They neutered him so he could not be bred at least.
As they admit, he was trained to know how to run the ring, stand for exam and that my friends is it. Mind you my brother has never bothered to tarin him either :confused: I have some experience with show breeders and am not impressed by many of them. There ARE some great ones out there though. :)

MegShawnMom
March 26th, 2005, 06:10 PM
Being a business I would say that they have insurance. I know that as a dog trainer I carried a heafty package,just in case. Most banks require businesses to have insurance.
Your brothers dog is high strung,part of the breed,yes a knucklehead, much like my old Walker hound was

Gazoo
March 26th, 2005, 06:14 PM
They don't necessarily have insurance, in fact they may not even be a registered business.

Lucky Rescue
March 26th, 2005, 06:49 PM
He looks beautiful but is a disobedient , aggressive( has lightly bit 2 joggers) numbskull

That is certainly not correct Weim temperament, but hard to say what caused it. A dog who is not socialized or trained to do anything except look good in the show ring (this is not uncommon) is not likely to mature to be a good representative of the breed, other than conformationally.

I feel conformation showing is ruining many breeds. Unfortunately that is the only standard to judge if dogs, who are not working or sporting breeds, are actually breeding quality.:(

db7
March 27th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Not only is Quebec a different legal jurisdiction, but it is also based on a completely different legal system than the rest of Canada. (civil vs. common). So be careful making decisions based on what you've read here. If you want legal advise, best to ask a lawyer. I doubt anyone here is up to speed with torts. I would offer some common sense perspective though. It sounds like this attempt to start a breeding business is failing, regardless of how well intentioned they may have been. You can be pretty certain you are not the only one that ended up with a problem dog. Chances are, even if you were to sue (if you have a case) and win, they won't have any money to pay you anyway as they have had so many problems. So then you end up in a legal cycle with collections agencies and the bailiff to collect your money and at the end of the day you have months/years of stress and little or no payout after the collections fees are paid.

You may want to seriously consider walking away and taking the hit. Even if they did come up with another dog for you, history would predict high med bills for the next 10 years. And maybe considering a breed with less risk of genetic problems.

If you do want to fight it, also take a look at suing the senior kennel that supplied your breeder with the foundation sires/dams.

Judging by your story the biggest loser in all of this is the Jr. breeder. I'd be furious if I were them and was supplied with a genetically screwed up foundation. I would be all over the senior breeder.

rush_0
December 12th, 2005, 08:54 PM
Was wondering how things turned out with SLAVETOMYPETS. My husband and I are having a similar problem. We bought our border collie last January from a breeder. They advertised a health guarentee. When we was speaking to them about the purchase of Zeb we questioned them about hip displaysia and any other health problems. We were assured that neither of Zebs parents have HD or any other health problems. When we brought him home we noticed a bad smell and it seemed as if he was congested. We took him to the vet and he had a severe upper respoiratory infection. We contacted the breeder and they agreed to pay half of his vet bill. Zeb has just turned 1 year old and now our vet says he has very severe hip displaysia and that one of his parents must have also since Zebs is so progressed and he is only one year old. The only treatment will be a hip replacement on both sides which is going to be extremely expensive. He also said that as bad as Zeb is, that the other puppies in his litter was/is probably affected. I have tried to contact the breeder and requested a refund to help with medical costs but didn't get a reply. Now I'm just really mad.. :mad: Mad that they advertise a health guarentee, mad that they told us that their dogs were healthy and didn't have hip problems... and mad that our Zeb has had nothing but pain and illness his entire short little life. :mad: We are thinking of suing also but don't know where to begin. Any comments or information would be greatly appreciated.

Lucky Rescue
December 12th, 2005, 09:24 PM
Mad that they advertise a health guarentee

What does the guarantee cover? If the guarantee is against genetic defects, then the breeder should honour it.

If not, you will probably have to take him to court. You can go to small claims court for the cost of the surgery.Make sure you have a written report from the vet stating that this is a genetic defect, the severity of it and also stating the cost of the surgery.

Also, find all the info you can on dysplaysia on the net, print that out and take it too since it should also support your claim.

This is taken from one such article:

"Hip dysplasia is considered a hereditary condition. The problem primarily affects large dogs. Even when a dog carries genetic traits that will cause it to develop hip dysplasia later in life, it is born with seemingly normal hips. Veterinarian's are usually unable to diagnose the condition until a dog is 6-10 months old when the dysplasia has developed and the dog is in pain. When a puppy is 5-7 weeks old, however, a veterinarian experienced in the Bardens Palpation technique can make a subjective determination of a tendency toward hip dysplasia."

You can read the rest here: http://www.cah.com/dr_library/hipdysp.html

A snippet from another article about border collies:

"Studies of several breeds in Europe, where hips are required to be graded, indicate the problem is approximately 70% hereditary and 30% environmental"

Full article: http://www.bordercollie.org/hd.html

StaceyB
December 12th, 2005, 09:32 PM
Just a couple of questions. Where did you hear about this breeder? Are the dogs registered? Was it a registered breeder? Did they give you a written health guarantee? Were the parents tested against said genetic defects?

mona_b
December 12th, 2005, 10:19 PM
What does the guarantee cover? If the guarantee is against genetic defects, then the breeder should honour it.

Exactly.

Also,did you see the health/genetic certificate that clears the parents of any health/genetic defects?This means hips,eyes.Where they also Temperment tested?Are the parents Champions or Titled?

I too am curious as to where you found this breeder.

Also,this breed is not recongnized with the CKC(canadian) or the AKC.They are registered with the ABCA(American Border Collie Association)

My sister has a Border Collie.And knock on wood,there hasn't been any problems with her hips.And she's almost 10.And both her parents were tested and cleared of any health/genetic defects.But she too was tested and cleared...:)

mafiaprincess
December 13th, 2005, 11:37 AM
Also, how long is the guarantee. I've read contracts that only cover genetics for a specific period of time. IE: only a year, so if you find out later, it is your problem..

Not a good breeder.. but I have seen it in many a sketchy breeder, or pet stores for that matter too.

Bushfire2000
December 13th, 2005, 11:56 AM
rush_O slavetomypets hasn't posted to let us know what happened. Hope you do. Good luck and so sorry for Zeb.

rjames
December 15th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Sorry to hear your terrible story. But I think it's going to end even worst for you and your family. I realize most people here think you would win in court, however, I think you would lose.

Here's why:

1) The contract states that if you are going to use the health guarantee, you will only receive a puppy and not money. You agreed to that when you paid for the dog.

So the offer of returning the money is basically hearsay. It's your word against his/her. The judge will ignore this.

2) The breeder offered you a puppy and you refused it. The judge will not ignore this.

By refusing the puppy, I beleive you released the breeder from the contract. He/she tried to honour it but you refused. If you refuse to let them honour the contract, I believe that releases him/her from the legal obligation. If not, how does a legal relationship end if one won't let the other fulfill their end? It's like oweing money to a bank - they must take your payment and can't hold you to the debt by unreasonably refusing to accept - for example - the last payment.

The only leaway I can see is that the replacement puppy may be unhealthy. But if the breeder can proove nothing was wrong with it, unfortunately I don't think you have any basis for a case.

Just my thoughts.

rush_0
December 15th, 2005, 07:32 PM
Thanks for all your replies. Lucky Rescue, thanks for the information. StacyB, we found the breeder on Puppyfind.com. We called and spoke to them about purchasing "Zeb" and ask questions about his parents, their health, if they had been tested for hip displaysia and the health guarentee. And they told us that all of their dogs were healthy and were vet checked. However, they didn't present any paperwork nor did they give us a written guarantee. In hindsite, I realize we should have insisted.

This is their web site. http://www.dualoaksfarm.com/pages/1/index.htm

They sent us pictures of Zeb's parents, Dakota Jack (father) and Jan (Mother) but the "Jan" picture on their website is NOT the Jan that they represented as Zeb's mother. Zeb is black and white with one blue eye. The one that looks like the picture they sent to us as Zeb's mother, looks more like the one they call 'Gin". Zeb's certificate of registration with the ABCA says the mother is Jan. So I'm really confused! If we can't recoup any money from them to help with medical bills, I would certainly like to so something to stop them from selling/breeding any more puppies with health problems. They have a litter for sale right now unless they haven't updated their site in a while.

Lucky Rescue
December 15th, 2005, 07:52 PM
OMG. I saw this written 5 times under 5 different bitches:

We are going to breed her early spring or late fall of 2005

Breeding 5 litters in one year - for what reason? I see no titles of any kind, or health checks for genetic defects, although I admit I didn't examine all of the site.

However, they didn't present any paperwork nor did they give us a written guarantee. In hindsite, I realize we should have insisted.

If you're buying puppies off the net from what amounts to a puppymill, then "Let the buyer beware." Reputable breeders do not need to peddle their puppies on the net or anywhere else, since they usually have a long list of prospective buyers for their very few litters.

"Vet checked" means absolutely nothing, since that could be a cursory exam to make sure the dog is not actively sick - not OFA or CERF or anything like that.

Even so, since hip displaysia cannot be confirmed until the dog is 6 - 10 months, this is still a genetic defect which makes the dog unsuitable for the purpose for which you purchased it - to be an active and healthy pet.

If you go to a store and buy, say, a toaster and the sale is "Final - No Refunds" but the toaster doesn't work when you bring it home, you are entitled to a refund. Store (or breeder) policy is NOT the law.

For that reason, I would still take them to small claims court since they supposedly sold you a healthy dog, and he is not.

rush_0
December 15th, 2005, 08:37 PM
If you're buying puppies off the net from what amounts to a puppymill, then "Let the buyer beware." Reputable breeders do not need to peddle their puppies on the net or anywhere else, since they usually have a long list of prospective buyers for their very few litters.

"Vet checked" means absolutely nothing, since that could be a cursory exam to make sure the dog is not actively sick - not OFA or CERF or anything like that.

You are right. We just didn't do our homework. I didn't realize... None the less, we love Zeb and we'll do whatever we can to help him to have the best life possible. He is such a loving boy. A little mischievous at times but he is still a youngin'.

Wonder if or how we could find out about his siblings. I'd like to know if they are having problems also. And, who could we contact about this breeder selling/breeding unhealthy pups?

rush_0
December 22nd, 2005, 07:16 PM
Finally got a reply from Zeb's breeders... This is what the had to say...


I regret to hear that Zeb is having a problem. I appreciate you letting us know so that we can adjust our breeding program to avoid crossing these lines in the future. We no longer have Zebs mother but it helps us to be aware of the potential for problems that may arise. Neither of Zebs parents have ever shown any symptoms of dysplasia. There is no guarentee that breeding two dogs without dyslpasia will result in 100% problem free puppies.

Our gaurentee is for the first 7 days after the date of purchase. As you are aware, when Zeb had a bacteria, we shared in the cost of the treatment because it was within the gaurentee period.

We wish the best for Zeb and you as you decide which option is best, for his long term well being.

I replied by asking them to provide the "certification from their Vet
where Zebs parents had been tested for Hip Displaysia" and inquired as to what happened to Zeb's mother. If you look on their web page, the "Jan" they have pictured is not the "Jan" they represented as Zeb's mother. I've also posted my situation on several lawyer web sites to see if I can take them to court.

Lucky Rescue
December 22nd, 2005, 07:55 PM
Wow. 7 days guarantee, on a genetic defect that only can be diagnosed after 6 months? Not too ethical.
I appreciate you letting us know so that we can adjust our breeding program to avoid crossing these lines in the future.
Since when would any reputable breeder need a puppy buyer to tell them what's wrong with their breeding program?

Neither of Zebs parents have ever shown any symptoms of dysplasia.
Not "showing signs" is not good enough when breeding dogs. The only way they could be sure their breeding dogs are free of any dysplasia is to have them tested by OFA. Something tells me they sure didn't bother with that.

http://www.offa.org/

I really hope you do something about this. Backyard breeders cause so much financial problems and heartache for unknowing buyers, and so much suffering for the dogs they pump that they really need to be stopped. The only way to wake them up is to hit them in their wallets, since money is ALL they care about.

rush_0
December 22nd, 2005, 08:08 PM
Thank you Lucky_Rescue for the web site link. Very informative. I am going to try and do something about these people. I'll keep you updated as things progress.

rush_0
December 22nd, 2005, 09:07 PM
I got a response from a lawyer where I posted our situation on lawyer.com. He said,

Did you have a written contract of sale? If so, the terms of that govern. If not, I doubt any court would hold them liable at this point in time AND if they were held liable it would only be for the purchase price. Consult local counsel.

Is there no one out that that will argue the fact that they are falsely representing their animals? Surely I can find someone to stand up for us! <sigh> :sad: I'll keep searching...........

StaceyB
December 22nd, 2005, 11:15 PM
Unfortunately the only way you are going to get help from a lawyer is to pay for it, unless there is a college or university near by that has a free legal clinic.

rush_0
December 23rd, 2005, 04:31 PM
You are exactly right! The laws surrounding the sale of pets just suck! Bad Breeders, ones that are only out for the money, can do whatever they please. And the law allows it. All I can do now is MAKE SOME NOISE. We plan on scheduling Zebs surgery after the first of the year. I'll keep everyone informed of his progress and informed in my "MAKE SOME NOISE" campaign. That is, if you wanna hear...

StaceyB
December 23rd, 2005, 04:44 PM
If you want to try and find some siblings then I would go to any pet site you can find and post a call for pups from this ?breeder.