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Appeals panel refuses to order Schiavo feeding

heidiho
March 23rd, 2005, 10:26 AM
Parents had sought reversal of lower court ruling
Wednesday, March 23, 2005 Posted: 9:44 AM EST (1444 GMT)


Mary Schindler, with husband, Bob, cries as she speaks to reporters on Tuesday.
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VIDEO
The battle lines over Terri Schiavo aren't as clear as they appear.

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Appellate ruling is latest setback for Terri Schiavo's parents.

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A federal appeals panel won't order Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted.

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RELATED
Timeline: Schiavo case


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• FindLaw: Appellate ruling
• Poll: Sympathy for parents
• Interactive: The feeding tube
• MedPage: Does she feel pain?
• Interactive: Opinion poll
• FindLaw: Florida court ruling
• FindLaw: Terri Schiavo law

11TH U.S. CIRCUIT
LOCATION: Atlanta, Georgia.


JURISDICTION: Federal cases originating in Alabama, Florida and Georgia.


JUDGES: There are 12 active judges and six senior judges on the 11th Circuit. Three-judge panels are randomly drawn to consider cases. Senior judges do not regularly hear cases.


AFFILIATION: Seven judges were appointed by Republicans, five by Democrats.


CHIEF JUDGE: J.L. Edmondson, whom President Reagan appointed in 1986, became chief judge in 2002.


REPUTATION: The court is considered moderate to conservative, said former U.S. Attorney Kent Alexander.


Source: The Associated Press


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ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- By a 2-1 vote, a three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals declined early Wednesday to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.

A lawyer for the parents of the brain-damaged woman said they would continue their fight, The Associated Press reported.

Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, had filed with the appeals court Tuesday, after U.S. District Court Judge James Whittemore in Tampa, Florida, decided he would not grant a temporary restraining order that would allow reinstatement of the tube.

The tube, which was removed last week, had been providing the 41-year-old woman with water and nutrients since 1990. She is being cared for at a Florida hospice.

"The Schindlers will be filing an appropriate appeal to save their daughter's life," Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing the parents, told the AP.

In issuing their majority opinion, 11th Circuit Judges Ed Carnes and Frank Hull said:

"We agree that the plaintiffs have failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims. We also conclude that the district court's carefully thought-out decision to deny temporary relief in these circumstances is not an abuse of discretion."

Judge Charles Wilson, who said he "strongly dissented" from the majority opinion, said refusing the parents' appeal "frustrates Congress' intent, which is to maintain the status quo by keeping Theresa Schiavo alive until the federal courts have a new and adequate opportunity to consider the constitutional issues raised by plaintiffs."

Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Friday on the order of Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer, a Florida judge who ruled that he had no jurisdiction in the case. He said judicial doctrine bars losing parties from using federal courts to appeal state court decisions.

Both sides in the case -- the Schindlers, and Schiavo's husband, Michael -- filed documents Tuesday with the appellate court in Atlanta, Georgia.

Courts have consistently ruled that Terri Schiavo's husband, who wants her tube removed, is her legal guardian and has the legal right to make decisions about her treatment. The Schindlers insist that she continue to be fed.

Attorney George Felos told reporters that Michael Schiavo is by his wife's side at a Tampa, Florida, hospice, saying, "That's where he'll remain until she dies."

President Bush has expressed support for the Schindlers' fight, signing the law that allows the case to be reviewed by federal courts. (Full story)

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said the administration hoped the Schindlers find relief in the appeals process. (Full story)

The Justice Department filed documents in the appeals court late Tuesday supporting the Schindlers' effort to have the feeding tube reinserted while the legal battle plays out.

"Unless preliminary relief is immediately issued, there will be significant and irreversible injury: Theresa Schiavo will die," the document declared.

Reached in Tallahassee, Florida, Randall Terry, an anti-abortion activist and spokesman for the Schindlers, said the parents were "devastated" by the appeals panel's ruling.

Terry said he is in Tallahassee trying to convince state senators to vote for a bill that would reinsert the feeding tube.

Schindlers 'shocked'
In denying the request for a temporary restraining order, Whittemore on Tuesday wrote that Schiavo's parents didn't have a "substantial likelihood of success" on the merits of their arguments.

"This court concludes that Theresa Schiavo's life and liberty interests were adequately protected by the extensive process provided in the state courts," the judge wrote.

Bobby Schindler, Terri Schiavo's brother, said his family was "just shocked" at the decision.

"I don't understand how the judge can predetermine our success," he said, adding that his family remained hopeful.

Schindler spokesman Gary McCullough called the decision "extremely cruel."

"Here's a woman whose life is hanging. She's being slowly starved," he said.

Howard Simon, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida, defended the decision.

"What Judge Whittemore did in his decision was to defend the 'culture of freedom' that each of us has to exercise control over our lives, and the circumstances of our own death," he said in a written statement.

Woman's wishes debated
Michael Schiavo insists that his wife would never want to continue to live in her condition -- what Florida courts have deemed a persistent vegetative state.

People in such a condition cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings.

Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage. Michael Schiavo said his wife suffered from bulimia that resulted in a potassium deficiency, triggering the heart failure.

The Schindlers said because of the absence of a living will, or written document, clearly spelling out her wishes, their daughter's due process rights have been violated. They believe her Roman Catholic faith would prevent her from wanting to die this way.

They also contend that their daughter's condition could improve with treatment.

CNN's Matt Smith, Bob Franken and Ninette Sosa contributed to this report.



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Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.


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heidiho
March 23rd, 2005, 10:28 AM
I just have to say if i was ever in that condition i would hope someone would help me die,that woman is not alive...I would never wnat to live like that,let her go is my opinion........

chico2
March 23rd, 2005, 10:34 AM
I agree Heidi,but it would be horrible to watch your child starve to death,no matter what kind of state she's in.
I just think it's sad her condition is being used as a pawn to politicians and over-zealous religious groups.
I only wish she could have a peaceful death,because she certainly is not alive.

Safyre
March 23rd, 2005, 10:40 AM
I would agree, I would hope that my family would allow me to die.
Her parents think she can get better... they won't listen to doctors.

Trinitie
March 23rd, 2005, 10:52 AM
It disgusts me to see it turn into a political battle like it has.

In my opinion, the husband has lost his right to say what's in the best interests of his "wife" when he left her to start another family. If he can't be bothered with her any more, then transfer her care to her family.

Not to mention, can't they find a better way to end her misery than to starve her to death? Death by starvation is the most horrible way to die. If she must be euthanized, then do so more humanely. Even prisoners on death row aren't starved to death. They're given lethal injections and allowed to drift off to sleep. At least allow her that last dignity.

CyberKitten
March 23rd, 2005, 11:16 AM
It is disgusting that sshe is being used as a political football. She is likely not in pain since she is medicated I am sure and probably not sure what is going on but it is all heartbreaking! It is tough to know what side to believe but if this is not what she wanted, then those wishes should be honoured. Certainly, it is a good reason to ensure we all have a living will. She will likely die at some point from a heart attack - dehydration causes electrolytes to become unbalanced and the lack of certain electrolytes leads to irregular heart beats and then ultimately to heart failure.

I was once very ill with a gstrointintestinal problem where I could not keep any food down and my electrolyes were just crazy. My potassium level was not "cosistsnet with life" tho I did not know that till I went to the ER - I hate to think of her going thru that tho at least she is probably close to unconscious. (In my case, I had to have a partial gastrectomy- half of my stomach removed), Anyway, my thoughts are with her!

heeler's rock!
March 23rd, 2005, 11:22 AM
I don't agree at all. She's not completely brain dead. According to an interview with her mother that I saw on the news, she still smiles, laughs, and cries. That's what changed my mind. If she's showing progress, even after 15 years, she deserves the right to live. The husband should just transfer over care to her parents. They're doing everything for her already, and they want her to live so badly! This case is just so heart wrenching......If she is doomed to die, I agree with doing it quickly and painlessly. Starvation is never the best option....

I couldn't live with myself if I had to do that for my husband. I'd transfer care to his family because the last thing I'd want to do is upset them anymore than they already are. I also thought that part of the reason he wanted her to die was because of insurance money, or because as long as she's alive, he's still legally married to her and he wants to be with his new family. At least that's what was being said last time this all happened.

CyberKitten
March 23rd, 2005, 11:28 AM
I don't want to debate this but at this point I don;t believe either side in this matter - especially after they got Congress for God's sakes involved. I saw an interview with a nurse who claimed she could talk some time ago (tho not recently) but she testified for the family and had been fired by the facility. Then her husband seems to have ulterier motives as well. I wish she had clearly delineated her wishes - it makes it bad all around. I know what I would want - and I have been near death on a few occasions - but everyone is unique and had different religious and moral beliefs. It is just so sad that she is iin this situation! I sit on an ethics committee and face these kind of issues weekly and it is NOT fun!!! And the decisions we make tend to involve children!! It's awful!

heidiho
March 23rd, 2005, 11:32 AM
I cannot believe they are starving her to death,that is wrong,but that is not living,she cannot speak eat etc etc that is not living in my opinion,and i would almost bet she would not want to have lived like that either.

LavenderRott
March 23rd, 2005, 11:43 AM
So let's look at the big picture regarding her husband for just a second:

He is obviously not in this fight for the money. Any money awarded in the malpractice suit some years ago is about gone - round the clock care for someone in Terri's condition is quite expensive. A couple of weeks ago, some man in California offered in $5 million dollars to just walk away and leave everything up to her parents. I am guessing that money would do wonderful things for the family he now has, but he turned it down.

He must have loved his wife a lot to stick this out for 15 years. I know plenty of men who have left their wives for considerably less reason.

And about his new family. Congratulations! How unhappy Terri would have been if she knew that he had spent a large part of his life mourning the loss of what they had before this happened and that he never had the chance to have children of his own to raise and love. I love my husband very much and I consider myself a fairly jealous person - but I certainly wouldn't expect him to endure what Terri's husband had with no one to turn to and no chance for a family.

The court appointed doctors, who have no stake in this whatsoever, have said that Terri will never recover. To hold on to her like this is cruel. Not just for Terri, for everyone involved.

The U.S. unemployment rate is uncontrollable and people are losing everything because they can't find work. It seems to me that my President should be spending a bit more time trying to solve these problems and less time worrying about one poor woman in Florida. (Oops, I forgot that she seems to be a pet project of his brother, Jeb - the Governor of Florida.)

Trinitie
March 23rd, 2005, 11:46 AM
If they decide that her life isn't worth living, and euthanizing her is the only way to handle things, why is her husband doing it now? Why didn't he do this 2 years ago, or when he decided to leave her for another woman? If he doesn't want to be burdened with her, then legally transfer her care to the people who are willing to care for her, for the rest of their natural lives, her parents.

If there's ANY possibility that she could get better over time, they have a moral obligation to look at other options.

heidiho
March 23rd, 2005, 11:46 AM
CLEVELAND-Patients in a persistent vegetative state like Terri Schiavo are a subgroup who suffer severe anoxic brain injury and progress to a state of wakefulness without awareness.


It is judged to be permanent after three months if induced nontraumatically. After 3 months, recovery is rare and life expectancy is approximately 2 to 5 years.


Patients in a persistent vegetative state do not feel pain, nor do they "suffer," says Michael De Georgia, MD, head of the neurology-neurosurgery intensive care unit at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation here.


Pain, as well as suffering, requires consciousness, which is lacking in a person in a persistent vegetative state, says Dr. De Georgia.


"Certainly these patients don't suffer," he adds. "Suffering is really that whole emotional aspect of pain: fear, anxiety, panic surrounding pain. You have to have consciousness to experience these emotions. So just as a person in a persistent vegetative state can't experience pain because of a lack of consciousness, they also don't suffer."


The issue of the potential pain and suffering of Schiavo, 41, the Florida woman who doctors say has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years, has become a national cause celebre. On Friday doctors at a Florida hospice removed Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube after a Florida judge approved the action. Since then President Bush signed a rapidly approved law that puts her fate in the hands of a federal court judge. A federal judge in Florida then refused to order doctors to reinsert the feeding tube, and the Schindlers' lawyers said they intend to appeal immediately to the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals based in Atlanta.


This marks the third time Ms. Schiavo has been taken off parenteral nutrition during a long and contentious legal battle between her husband - Michael Schiavo who says his wife would want the tube removed - and Ms. Schiavo's parents who steadfastly maintain that their daughter would not want the tube removed. The parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, say their daughter responds to them and is not in a persistent vegetative state.


Dr. DeGeorgia says that a patient in a persistent vegetative state can experience arousal, meaning that the patient's eyes may be open and the patient may laugh, cry or appear to track someone who is in the room.


And that is what can be confusing for people, especially relatives, he says. "For example, a patient in persistent vegetative state will grasp your hand. In fact if you put anything into the patient's hand, the hand will grasp it. But this is a very primitive reaction. A newborn baby will grasp your finger, but there is no consciousness."


It is consciousness that determines whether one can "feel" pain in the sense that most people understand when they talk about feeling pain.


This doesn't mean that a patient like Terri Schiavo won't respond to pain stimulus - if you pinch her arm, she is like to flinch away. "That is called nociception," De Georgia says. "Tissue is damaged by the pinch, this generates a response in a receptor, which sends an impulse along the peripheral nerves. This impulse travels to the thalamus, which directs the arm to withdraw," he said. It is what is commonly called a reflex.


Pain, on the other hand, is the recognition of nociception by the nervous system, which sends the impulse to regions of the brain where consciousness exists. In the case of a severely brain injured person - one in a persistent vegetative state - those areas of consciousness have been destroyed, and as result "they don't 'feel' pain."




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heidiho
March 23rd, 2005, 11:48 AM
It has been about 20 years enough is enough,i could understand a couple of years but 20 no,let her go with some sort of dignity..

Trinitie
March 23rd, 2005, 12:04 PM
People can, and do, get better over time, with no apparent explainations. Take Christopher Reeve, for example. He was paralyzed after being thrown from his horse, and was pronounced a quadriplegic, having to remain on a respirator for the rest of his life. He didn't remain on a respirator. He retrained himself to breathe without the use of a machine. In 2000, he was able to move a finger, something that is so momentous that it made world news. The only reason he died, was from an infection caused from a pressure wound, that caused cardiac arrest.

I realize this has nothing to do with the topic being discussed here, but if Mr. Reeve's body could repair itself, why can't someone else's? IF the doctors could say that there's absolutely no possibility that she would ever get better, then fine, do what needs to be done, as long as she's not aware of her surroundings. If she shows any sort of recognition of people, places, events, pain perception, cries, laughs, or appears to know what's happening around her. If she can do these things, who are we to judge if she should live or die?

LavenderRott
March 23rd, 2005, 12:29 PM
If they decide that her life isn't worth living, and euthanizing her is the only way to handle things, why is her husband doing it now? Why didn't he do this 2 years ago, or when he decided to leave her for another woman? If he doesn't want to be burdened with her, then legally transfer her care to the people who are willing to care for her, for the rest of their natural lives, her parents.

If there's ANY possibility that she could get better over time, they have a moral obligation to look at other options.

Her husband has been fighting this in the courts for YEARS. It isn't that he doesn't want to be burdened with her. He wants to carry out her wishes. SHE did not want to be kept alive like this. It is my impression that, while he doesn't live at the hospital like his in-laws, he still sees Terri frequently.

How much time - seems like 15 years is a pretty long time. Many doctors have seen her and all but one says there is no hope for recovery.

I would hope, that should something happen to me, that my husband would be so diligent in carrying out my wishes. And if it took a long legal battle, I would not begrudge him happiness. Even if it meant that he loved someone else and had children with her.

LavenderRott
March 23rd, 2005, 12:32 PM
I am sure that Cyber Kitten is much more qualified to talk about muscle spasms and such that can appear as smiles and such. From everything I have read, the only people to see Terri smile, etc. are her parents. That sounds a bit odd if you ask me.

If I am not mistaken, Mr. Reeves WAS on a respirator until the day he died. He did, however, learn to talk. His injury was a spinal injury. Terri's injury is a brain injury.

Trinitie
March 23rd, 2005, 12:36 PM
This is the exact reason to write a living will. I have one and I recommend it to everyone I talk to, about situations like this.

IF it's Terri's wishes that she not be kept in a "vegitative state", then her wishes should be carried out. What I don't understand, though, is why her husband waited SO long to do this. Certainly he knew this years ago, back when he left her to start a new life. This should have been done 15 years ago, not now when too many opinions rule too many lives.

My living will dictates what is to happen to me, in the event I can no longer speak for myself, and my will disposes of my physical possessions, as well as my physical body.

I think I've hyjacked this thread too long now, and leave you all to discuss this amongst yourselves. My eyes have been opened to Terri's wishes, and will research this further on the Internet. Gotta love that "google" thing huh? :D

Shannon83
March 23rd, 2005, 12:55 PM
http://www.terrisfight.net/

Britishvixen21
March 23rd, 2005, 01:09 PM
I never wish to be in this situation and I can only comment on how I feel, but I just dont think its right that a women that was so vibrant and alive should be forced to live the way that she is. thats no sort of life, and whether she could recover or not is not the question. I know for a fact that if i was Terri, and even if i knew what was going on around me without being able to communicate it I would want to die.
As for her husband I really dont think he would have battled this far if all he wanted to do was cop a leg over someone else. I think that he should be commended for fighting so hard for what his wife wanted!
While she is still alive he cannot move on, remarry, start a family. its ridiculous. He may well have been severly disabled like she.
Her parents are just selfishly hanging on to a small thread of what was there daughter. So she smiles! so what man. If im stuck in a vegetative state with the only function being what could be a smile - well shoot me right there and then!!! :mad:
I have made it plain and clear to all family members that I would NOT want to be like that. not only is it a waste of my life when I could be set free. Its a waste of a hospital bed and money.

chico2
March 23rd, 2005, 01:20 PM
I agree with LR,as far as I have read the husband has been fighting for Terries right to die for more than 10yrs.
There is no money left for him,he will not benifit from her death.
He recieved $1.5 million in a malpractise suit,but it's gone to lawyers and the medical care for Terrie.
The parents say he's an unfaithful husband,but I am sure this is what Terrie would want,I know I would.
There are millions of people in the US,who are still living and fighting to live,but unable to get the care they need because of lack of money,the President,his brother and all these religious groups,would do better working on a National Healtcare system so nobody would have to die needlessly and leave Terries fate up to the people who love and know her.

heidiho
March 23rd, 2005, 01:25 PM
That goes to show u to me the parents are just not all there,is he really expected to not move on with his life, i would want my spouse to move on ,what was he supposed to do,watch his wife live like that and now u have a second life wasted ,that is just ridicoulous thing to me....

Prin
March 23rd, 2005, 01:33 PM
I don't know about you guys but I am common law and I want my man to decide even if legally, my parents decide if I don't have a will. I think it is way harder to decide to have your CHILD removed from life support than it is to have your spouse removed. It's just a different relationship and a spouse would act more compassionately than a parent, who would usually want to hold on to their child as long as they could. It's a harsh generalization maybe but it's how I feel. My boyfriend would let go and keep the promises he has made to me (including caring for my two doggies) and my dad would hold on and hope I would be fixed up one day.

mastifflover
March 23rd, 2005, 02:11 PM
I feel bad but I would never want to be kept alive in that state. As the gentleman from Toronto said about his condition is that they humanely put animals to sleep to end their misery why can't he be treated as well. I find it disgusting that the government has the nerve to step in on this issue. From what the public opinion of this government intervention majority think they should mind there own business that it is not a gov't issue. There is a small majority of religous groups that think it is there business. Everyone needs to have a living will so nobody else ends up like this poor woman.

CyberKitten
March 23rd, 2005, 02:17 PM
This is my break so this will be short (yeah right I can hear ppl saying, lol) - ironically I have an ethics cte mtg in an hr.

Chris Reeves' situation was so very different than Terri's like lightyears! (and I kow you did not really mean to compare the 2 Trinitie). His brain was functioning very well - he was a very bright man - and there is even hope that changes in brain injury assistance will be coming soon. (Soon in that world may be a decade but he had much hope).

As a doc who was interviewed said, he had not examined her so it is hard to know - in the yelling between the interest groups and the parents and the husband. I do agree about the husband - he has stuck in there and there seems little to gain for him. (and her inlaws also heard her say she would not want to live like that) The parents are not strictly her legal guardian so the court should have probably listened to him a long time ago.

I work with a disabilty rights org so I do have mixed feelings about this. If there is any hope of a recovery of some kind (and a life is a life!), then one can understand the parents. But if Terri's wishes are to have no intervention, then who am I or any of the other Right to Life groups et al to have anything to say on this matter.

It is ironic that the beginnings of life and end of life are when these issues come up. Small babies who will die without a respirator and with a respirator will live maybe a year- should they live even when the resources in keeping them alive mean that one child who has cancer may die because that bed is not available. And whould someone who is 95 and had a great life live when they are oblivious to their surroundings. I think in the 2nd case, if the 95 yo wants that, we have no choice but to honour his wishes. The same is true of the baby imho - it means ensuring the wait list is not so long! But every day in every hospital in the country, doctors will accept the desperate demands of patients who wish to die - they no longer can control the pain, etc. They do not take the course this bizarre case does- it is a matter of controlling the pain with narcotics and eventually that will kill you because it depressed the respiration.

In my own personal life as a patient - even when I knew surgery might mean I would never walk again or even be bedridden, my opinion was that there was always something I could do. And later in the ICU, in spite of the unbearable pain - even with morphine - it was wonderful because I was alive. But I was 17 and had my entire life in front of me. I did learn to walk again! :)

As to Terri's smiles, i doubt they really are smiles per se. (But I have not seen her chart). Even so, most patients in that state (I hate the term vegetative, ughh!), have muscle movements that can be interpreted any way someone wants to.

Anyway -that's it! It really is a tough situation, more so because it is in the public eye. I hope people will get a living will (if none exists already) made after this case!! Terri herself had her initial heart attacke because she had bulemia and electrolytes inbalance caused it. That could well occur again, ironically!

Jackie467
March 23rd, 2005, 03:23 PM
Not too long ago my family was in a similar situation. My aunt (from marrige) went into the hospital for what is called routine sugury, I'm not sure what it is called and am not comfertable explaining it here if anyone wishes to know you can pm me. She went into surgury, an hour later she was in a vegitative state, it had something to do with the fact she never told her doctors she was undergoing shock thearpy for smoking and that made the sugury very dangerous. she had absolutly no brain activity, had to be feed and put on a resperator. she was 62, my uncle was 42 (yes 20 year age diff.), her mother was and is still alive (it's amazing she's 92). After a couple of weeks she had a massive heart attack, then four weeks after that she had a series of small strokes. After the strokes her doctors told us there was little hope of her ever waking up and there was no way of telling how long she would stay like that. My uncle wanted to remove the resperator and place a DNR on her, her mother did not agree. They were fighting over this for about a week when the lord decided to take her. Our situation ended, maybe by seeing this it was for the best that we didn't have to make the decision. It was very difficult because she too smiled, blinked, and squeezed our hands, it was really hard to believe that she had no control over it and didn't even know she was doing it, but in the end we knew she couldn't control it.

Princesss04
March 24th, 2005, 04:22 PM
This breaks my heart :sad: I just do not see if they are going to let her die do it in a faster and more humane way. Letting her lay there and strave to death is not right nor will it even be right in MY book. I think this is so sad! :sad: :sad:

chico2
March 24th, 2005, 04:45 PM
I agree Princess,as a parent I would be absolutely heartbroken,I am only hoping she knows nothing,feels nothing and will not linger too much longer.
I know it's the right desicion to let her have peace and die,but starving to death slowly seems such a cruel way :sad:

Trinitie
March 24th, 2005, 04:52 PM
As I said earlier.
Not to mention, can't they find a better way to end her misery than to starve her to death? Death by starvation is the most horrible way to die. If she must be euthanized, then do so more humanely. Even prisoners on death row aren't starved to death. They're given lethal injections and allowed to drift off to sleep. At least allow her that last dignity.

CyberKitten
March 24th, 2005, 06:44 PM
If a doctor (or a nurse for that matter) were to give her an overdose of ay morphine or even the right dose of pottassium chloride, she would die peacefully but the medical professional would be guilty of murder - if convicted at any rate. I often hear patients (kids!!) tell me that their cats and dogs and rabbits have it easier than they - they can just have a needle to be put to sleep. (Sometimes children who are extremely ill get very depressed). It gets very contentious when the patient is almost the age of majority and knows what s/he wants but their parents have the ultimate say so the person ends up on a respirator even tho that is not their wish. I hate situations like that and they do happen all the time!

Prin
March 24th, 2005, 07:48 PM
My grandmother starved herself at the end. She had ovarian cancer and decided that it wasn't worth the fight to gain a rotten few extra days. Not once did she ever say "put some food in me". It took about 7 or 8 days and by day 4 she was in a coma. I didn't think that it was too harsh. Sure I would have rathered that she be "euthanized" earlier and in one shot but between the starving and continuing on hoping to die, I think she didn't regret the choice she made.

Karin
March 24th, 2005, 08:53 PM
I hate the media...but the latest report from the medical insiders is even if a court would grant the right for intervention at this moment, it would not help. Terri is alredy going through organ shut down, her renal system is failing, respiration is low and shallow. It is expected she will also go into cardiac arrest within the next 48 hours. Re-insertion of the GI tube will be futile from this point on. On the other hand, extreme measures may help if started now.

Terri Schindler needs to be with her family as they need to be with her.

Safyre
March 24th, 2005, 10:53 PM
This thread hits home for me, this story does, as it reminds me of a very terrible time in my life. I am going to share this story, becasue it effects my view.

My former boyfriend, had a very serious car accident. He was in a coma for 2 1/2 months. If I recall correctly, he was in what is referred to as a stage 3 coma. Stage 1 is brain dead, stage 15 is normal (CyberKitten if I have explained that wrong, can you please clarify?)
He stayed in this stage 3 coma for weeks upon weeks. The doctors told his parents that IF he were to survive, he would never be able to walk or talk again. he would not be the same person.

After 2 1/2 months, he awoke. Yes, the doctors were right, they had to teach him how to walk again. He talked with a slur for a few days, and that went away.
He is now in University studying Chemisty, and holds a 3.8 GPA
The only real lasting effects were a shortened memory, he gets frustrated more easily, almost like adult ADD.

The reason I posted this? If there is a chance for recovery, even the slightest chance, then I believe the person should be on life support. For as long as is needed. If at any time, it is determined that the person is a permanent vegitative state, in other words, no chance to recover, the person should be allowed to die. (the above said only in regards to those with no living will)

The doctors have determined, many doctors, that there is NO chance for recovery, and there has been no chance for a very long time.
At this time, it is her quality of life that needs to be assessed.
They have proven that they can keep her alive, but they can't make her better. At no point, do I believe, should we allow someone to live, just because we can make them live.

I agree with all those on this thread that feel starvation is a TERRIBLE way to die. And, MY OPINION is that Euthenasia should be allowed in cases such as these.

chico2
March 25th, 2005, 09:35 AM
I was reading the paper this morning and it looks like Terrie does not have long to go for her release from being a living dead.Intervention at this point would be of no help.The pictures we are continuosly shown shows Terrie from at least 10yrs ago..and gives the wrong impression of how her"life"has been up until today.
It's very sad,when you have people,who have never met her saying,Terrie is laughing and joking,likes to hum to music :mad:
The whole sad situation has brought out all the crazies in the world and who knows what is going to happen next?
In the middle of this circus are grieving parents and even if now,they were willing to let their daughter go in peace,different religous groups would not allow them to give up..
I was watching the Larry King show last night,there were two beautiful disabled women as guests,to show the public you can recover....but they were proving nothing,since they were not even remotely as bad as Terrie and not for 15 yrs,it was very frustrating listening to them,calling the husband a murderer.Numerous experts have proven,Terrie will never recover,prayers,deaththreats and Mr Jed Bush cannot change that fact..
I do not blame Michael for being"unfaithful"like people say,I would want my husband to go on with his life and that my wishes not to live like a "vegetable"be honoured and I know my husband feels the same were the situation reversed.
All I am hoping is that Terrie will be released from her prison and let go in peace.

Princesss04
March 25th, 2005, 10:01 AM
Chico that is how I feel I mean behind all of this there are two parents that are about to lose their daughter. I am sure they public is not making this process any easier. Can you imagine them staying there and watching her get worse and worse. How they must feel to have that feeling is she hurting? Is she laying there thinking mom dad why are you hurting me. Mom I am hungry please give me a drink. This breaks my heart. I feel for this family. They have not left my thoughts or prayers. I do not agree with her "husband" at all. When you take those marriage vows you say till death do us part. In SICKNESS and health. Not in sickness till I have waited long enough than I can move on. If Justin was in this boat he is MY husband not MATTER WHAT! Just my view I am sure no one agrees and that is fine. I know we will not all agree and that what makes us human. Thanks for listening sorry if I upset anyone. :grouphug: I do feel for her mom and dad and I think that is something we can all agree on! :grouphug:

chico2
March 25th, 2005, 11:00 AM
Princess,I agree with the"in sickness and health"part,but when do you draw the line,Terrie is beyond sick.They had been married 5 yrs and apparently happily so,Terrie suffered from Bulimia(Sp?)unbeknownest to her family and suffered a heartattack.What I know is,that Michael stood by her for 5 yrs,did everything possible.I don't know what the malpractise-suit was all about,but he recieved 1.2 milion and it has paid for Terries care up until now,he did not get rich from it.
Michael was a young man,I would not want him to waste his entire life waiting for a miracle that would not happen,so he met someone,now has 2 children,he gave Terrie 10 yrs of his life,5 of those years with her in this terrible condition.I don't feel he abandonned her,he could have gotten a divorce a long time ago,but did not.
I would not want to be either him or Terries parents and I wish there was a legally easier way for Terrie to say good-bye to this world,but there is not,so all we can hope for is her peaceful passing.

LavenderRott
March 25th, 2005, 11:28 AM
He still hasn't abandoned her! He is still in there fighting for what she wanted.

How unreasonable is it to ask a young man to spend 15 years sitting in a hospital room watching the woman that he loves suffer? How unfair to tell him that he can't have a family because his wife is in a vegetative state?

I think he has done an admirable job defending his wife. I would hope that my husband (who is many years younger then me) would do the same thing. I would certainly not be angry if he found someone else that could love him and care for him when I would never be able to be there for him. I love my husband too much to cause him that kind of anquish.

Princesss04
March 25th, 2005, 11:36 AM
What happens IF she would come out of all this wake up tommorow and be fine. What than! ? Who does he love who does he be with. His "wife" or his "affair" who does he love who does he love with? But we are getting down to his word against her parents word. How do we really know this is what she wanted. All we have is what he says. When he got all that money on that law suit thing he was suppose to get her this special treatment and than he refused to once he had the money. They thought that treatment would be just what she needed to maybe help her. I understand what you all are saying and I am not trying to start a fight just stating my opinion like everyone else is doing. I do not wnat to upset anyone.

Princesss04
March 25th, 2005, 11:39 AM
I would not want to be either him or Terries parents and I wish there was a legally easier way for Terrie to say good-bye to this world,but there is not,so all we can hope for is her peaceful passing.[/QUOTE]

Chico I think this would be the hardest thing to do on either side. I wish there was an easier way as well. I do not agree that she should not suffer like this but I also wish there was an easier why for her to pass. I mean they do not even do this to people that are in prision. It is so sad. I hate to see them all fighting and suffering. :grouphug: WE just need to all be in prayers for the family and all concerned. :grouphug:

chico2
March 25th, 2005, 12:04 PM
Princess,the point that he did not allow her proper treatment is not true and there is no chance she will ever wake up after 15yrs,it's better to listen to the people who have the knowledge,than the screaming accusatory crowd outside.
If I ever had to watch my husband in this state for 15yrs,or any of my sons...no,I probably would not wait 15yrs,it's a desicion I hope I never have to make,but bad things happen
You might think Terrie is screaming inside for water,but how do we know she is not silently screaming,let me go....?

MegShawnMom
March 25th, 2005, 12:14 PM
At 25 I was more interested in living. Death was just for old people and I was never going to die till I was very very old.Remember, back them people didn't talk about dying,especially about what to do with me IF something should happen.
Lets see now
-IF I'am aquadapelegic;keep me alive
-IF Ia'm uncounscious'keep me alive
-IF i'am in a vegative state and my systems are working fine and I will never recover with brain activity-pull the plug-oh one more thing IF I need a feeding tube-pull the plug.
Seems very unlikely to me that a conversation went on, maybe a mention that'I wouldn't want to live that that.
Remeber when giving birth you would say-scream-think- take me now PLEASE, the pain the pain, thank God the doctors didn't do as you directed.
Why can't the parents look after her?

CyberKitten
March 25th, 2005, 12:52 PM
I agree with the first two BUT if either of the first two were in existence and I needed a neogastric (feeding) tube, I'd do it. I lived on one for a month and a half with a couple days off and you get used to it. My throat was sore for awhile after but heck, I was alive!!

MegShawnMom
March 25th, 2005, 01:22 PM
thank you CyberKitten, your absolutly right.There are so many variables involved when we say "i want to die IF"

My next rip to the dentist I'am going to take a note that says
"don't beleive anything I say/scream, I'am only being hypathetical.

Princesss04
March 25th, 2005, 01:26 PM
MYTH: Many doctors have said that there is no hope for her.
FACT: Dr. Victor Gambone testified that he visits Terri 3 times a year. His visits last for approximately 10 minutes. He also testified, after viewing the court videotapes at Terri’s recent trial, that he was surprised to see Terri’s level of awareness. This doctor is part of a team hand-picked by her husband, Michael Schiavo, shortly before he filed to have Terri’s feeding removed. Contrary to Schiavo’s team, 14 independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists) have given either statements or testimony that Terri is NOT in a Persistent Vegetative State. Additionally, there has never been any medical dispute of Terri’s ability to swallow. Even with this compelling evidence, Terri’s husband, Michael Schiavo, has denied any form of therapy for her for over 10 years.

This is something I have read Chico in many places.

Princesss04
March 25th, 2005, 01:28 PM
MYTH: Terri is PVS (Persistent vegetative state)
FACT: The definition of PVS in Florida Statue 765.101:
Persistent vegetative state means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:

(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind.
(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.

Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move around her. None of these behaviors are simple reflexes and are, instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has limitations, she does interact purposefully with her environment.

goldenblaze
March 25th, 2005, 02:31 PM
My opinion is let this poor lady go, 15 years is long enough to wait and hope. I would never want to have a so called life if it meant living that way! Her husband I feel has done nothing wrong, he was there for her and he did also have the right to keep living. Her family yes I feel sorry for but still feel Terri's wishes should be the only thing that counts. Hope she passes in peace as she never wanted to live that way. Sad :(

Princesss04
March 25th, 2005, 03:18 PM
I hope she passess peacefully as well. I hope this new court order does not get passed and they put this tube back in it will make things worse. I mean she is almost gone now. I just wish there was a more humane way to do this that is my big thing with it. :( Best wishes to her husband and her family.

chico2
March 25th, 2005, 05:00 PM
Well,it's easy for us to judge and have different opinions,I am sure it's been a long 15yr nightmare for all involved,including Terrie and lets hope the end is near and that we never,ever have to make such a difficult desicion.

goldenblaze
March 25th, 2005, 06:34 PM
I agree with chico2, long time to go through this and some many people wanting different things for Terri. I believe it's her time to let go and be in a better place. But I do feel for everyone fighting for her, they all love her and want what they think is right.

doggy lover
March 29th, 2005, 09:16 AM
I believe that sometimes doctors try to play god. They should have never tried to save her by putting in the feeding tube. I work in a nursing home and we have been getting in more people all the time with tubes in, and yes these are elderly people. Why do this too them, let them die with dignity. It is hard to let someone die this way, they normally dehidrate before they starve to death if they are not taking fluids, why not give them a needle and let them die peacefully. I believe that we should have the right to be put to sleep the same way we do our pets, when they have no quality of life left, it is the humaine way.

Eleni
March 29th, 2005, 10:02 AM
unfortunatly, that brings on teh question as to when is it inhumane to let someone suffer

and when is it humane to end their life.

That seems to enter a very grey area, everyones definition of humane differs, there would be no clear cut definition of THIS is when you end someones suffering.

as for teh Terry this, Hopefully her suffering will end and she can ahve the peace she righfully deserves


Eleni

Trinitie
March 29th, 2005, 11:35 AM
Why can't the parents look after her?

Terri's parents have been trying to gain custody of her since 1993, or at the very least, have Michael removed.

Lizzie
March 29th, 2005, 12:40 PM
My biggest issue is that Terri, being someone who was self concious of her weight and appearance, would NOT want to be broadcast around the world in this state. Her images are in papers, magazines and on tv---judging from the tales told about who she was, she would want nothing to do with this sort of publication of her.

On another note---I am not sure if this has been brought up yet, but a significant number of people die from starvation--they may have had a disease, old age, or whatever that has led them down a road of deterioration. This deterioration has prevented them from the ability to eat or care of themselves...their body thus shuts down slowly, resulting in their death. This is how many seniors pass away....it's how mine did. While she was never offered a feeding tube, I certainly did not consider this murder, rather it was simply her time to go.

Trinitie
March 29th, 2005, 01:07 PM
I'm sorry to hear that your family member died in such a manner.

Terri is not a senior though, and technology exists today that didn't exist in 1990. Has Michael tried other techniques to see if his wife is capable of regaining any sort of function? Or is he just waiting to collect the inheritance from her estate? (as was mentioned by a court appointed appointed guardian in 1998)

Princesss04
March 29th, 2005, 01:18 PM
That is my thing I am not saying that she would want to live like this but what I am saying is there has to be a better way than not feeding her or giving her anything to drink. Her "husband" let her take communion the other day. How nice of him. LOL They could not even place the bread on her tongue because it was so dry and was cracking open. And my thing is if the doctors thought that she was not suffering why are they sticking her with so much morphine. (spelling) they are loading her up to a point where the dad thinks the docotors are trying to speed it up because they are giving her so much. Why waste it if she is not hurting or can not feel anything. They say they are just being sure. Why I thought they knew FOR SURE! :confused: :sad: This whole story just breaks my heart. I think this has become a side againist side thing and I am sure she would not have wanted it that way. You know you see so much of her parents but very little of her "husband" wonder why that is? :confused: And if she is not hurting or anything why is the press not allowed in there or any cameras just makes me wonder. I mean they arrested a little 10 year old boy that tried to walk to the door and give her a drink of water. I think this has went to far and it needs to stop.

Trinitie
March 29th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Terri was not given communion the other day - those were her last rights.

I agree with you Princess. "Active Euthanasia" is illegal, so she can't be "put to her death" as a prisoner on Death Row would be. But "Passive Euthanasia", or the withholding of food and water to lead to one's death IS legal. Strange world we live in.

I was just told that they announced, on the radio this morning, that Michael Schiavo will hold an autopsy on Terri's body to steer away any ideas that she could have recovered.

As far as the 10 year old boy goes:
To play Devil's Advocate - the protesters outside are, according to Terri's brother, "not speaking for the family". Those are "professional protesters", for lack of a better term. At the end of the protests at the hospice, they pack them in a bus and transport them to the next rally. Protests should not be held. This is between the parents and the husband. If they decide through the courts, then so be it.

According to the Internet - a person in a PVS can still feel pain on a primal level, so morphine is in order. It's good that they're giving her too much. I would certainly hate to think they're not giving her enough and she can feel herself starving to death. (death by starvation is reputed to be EXTREMELY painful)

Princesss04
March 29th, 2005, 02:38 PM
I was watching the news today and she is still hanging in there. She went pee today. They said her organs are still functioning and her pulse is still good. I can not believe that she is hanging on. Her health is failing but she is still hanging on. I do not think we know all that is going on but I do not that it is amazing to me that she is still here. :grouphug: I hope she is not feeling anything. I am glad as well they are giving her something because I would hate to think she is laying there in pain.

Princesss04
March 29th, 2005, 02:43 PM
Updated: 1:13 p.m. ET March 29, 2005

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - As Terri Schiavo began her 12th day without food or water on Tuesday, the feud between the brain-damaged woman's parents and husband escalated when the latter requested an autopsy once she dies in order to prove that she could not have recovered.

George Felos, the attorney for husband and guardian Michael Schiavo, said the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy before her remains are cremated.

He said that Michael Schiavo, who has convinced courts that his wife told him years ago she would not want to be kept alive artificially under such circumstances, wants definitive proof showing the extent of her brain damage.

“We didn’t think it was appropriate to talk about an autopsy prior to Mrs. Schiavo’s death,” Felos told reporters Monday, "but because claims have been made by, I guess, opponents of carrying out her wishes that there was some motive behind the cremation of Mrs. Schiavo we felt it was necessary to make that announcement today.”

Disagreement over the planned cremation rather than the full burial demanded by Schiavo’s Roman Catholic parents has been a subplot to the long legal battle.

An attorney for Schiavo’s parents, David Gibbs III, said her family also wants an autopsy. “We would certainly support and encourage an autopsy to be done, with all the unanswered questions,” Gibbs said.

goldenblaze
March 29th, 2005, 02:46 PM
I thought it would take awhile for her to pass without the feeding tube. I do know someone that this happen to and it was much longer than 2 or 3 weeks. Very sad for everyone but this poor lady didn't want to live like this from the start.
I feel for them all but truly I want Terri to be in a better place.

Princesss04
March 29th, 2005, 02:50 PM
Here is another article....

Jackson Prays With Terri Schiavo's Parents

1 hour, 55 minutes ago

By RON WORD, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - The parents of Terri Schiavo met and prayed Tuesday with the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who called her impending death "an injustice."

Joining the conservatives who have rallied to the parents' cause, the liberal Jackson said he would call state senators who opposed legislation that would have reinserted Schiavo's feeding tube and ask them to reconsider.

Terri Schiavo was in her 12th day without food and water. Her husband and guardian, Michael Schiavo, has insisted that he was carrying out her wishes by having her feeding tube pulled. His lawyer said Monday that an autopsy was planned to show the extent of Terri Schiavo's brain damage.

Jackson's arrival Tuesday was greeted by some applause and cries of "This is about civil rights."

"I feel so passionate about this injustice being done, how unnecessary it is to deny her a feeding tube, water, not even ice to be used for her parched lips," said Jackson, who has run for president as a Democrat. "This is a moral issue and it transcends politics and family disputes."

"I wanted the Reverend Jackson here for moral support," said Mary Schindler, Terri Schiavo's mother. "I feel good with him here. Very strong. He gives me strength."

University of South Florida political science professor Susan MacManus said Jackson's appearance shows that the life-and-death issues surrounding their daughter resonate beyond white, Christian conservatives.

"A person of faith, and not just a white, conservative person of faith will be seen as a welcomed change," MacManus said.

Schiavo's father, Bob Schindler, said he visited his daughter Tuesday and said she was "failing."

"She still looks pretty darn good under the circumstances," Schindler said. "You can see the impact of no food and water for 12 days. Her bodily functions are still working. We still have her."

After Jackson's news conference, a man was tackled to the ground by officers when he tried to storm into the hospice, Pinellas Park police said.

Dow Pursley, 56, of Scranton, Pa., was shocked with a Taser stun gun and was arrested on charges of attempted burglary and resisting arrest without violence, police spokesman Sanfield Forseth said. The man had two bottles of water with him but did not reach the hospice door, police said. He is the 47th protester arrested.

On Monday, George Felos, the attorney for husband and guardian Michael Schiavo, said that the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy.

He said her husband wants definitive proof showing the extent of the brain damage.

An attorney for the Schindlers, David Gibbs III, said her family also wants an autopsy. "We would certainly support and encourage an autopsy to be done, with all the unanswered questions," Gibbs said.

Felos said he had visited Schiavo for more than an hour Monday and said she looked "very peaceful. She looked calm."

"I saw no evidence of any bodily discomfort whatsoever," Felos said, although he added her breathing seemed "a little on the rapid side" and her eyes were sunken.



Doctors have said Terri Schiavo, 41, would probably die within a week or two when the tube was removed on March 18. She suffered catastrophic brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped for several minutes because of a chemical imbalance.

The parents on Monday pressed again for President Bush, Congress and the president's brother, Gov. Jeb Bush, to intervene to have the feeding tube reinserted. A small group of supporters protested outside the White House gates.

As Schiavo drew closer to death, extra police officers blocked the road in front of the Florida hospice, and an elementary school next door was closed so students could avoid the crowd.

President Bush's aides have said they have run out of legal options.

At least two more appeals filed by the state seeking the feeding tube's reconnection were pending, but those challenges were before a Florida appeals court that had rejected the governor's previous efforts in the case.

Princesss04
March 29th, 2005, 02:52 PM
Thursday, March 24, 2005
Breaking News: Fired Nurse Claims Terri Feels Pain
March 24, 2005
Cybercast News Service

(CNSNews.com) - A nurse, who worked until Monday at the hospice where Terri Schiavo is dying of dehydration and starvation under court order, claims Terri feels pain and the nursing staff medicates her for that pain. Nora Wagner also claims she was fired Monday after expressing support for keeping Terri alive.

Wagner has been a nurse for 30 years and spent the last two years as a contract employee of an agency that provides nurses to the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park, Fla., where Terri has been kept since April of 2000. She told a Florida television station that Terri's feeding tube should not have been removed.

"She's not physically ill, other than being brain damaged," Wagner told WPTF reporter Sarina Fazan.

Princesss04
March 29th, 2005, 03:05 PM
Okay for whoever wants to see this.. I found this petition on Terris website www.terrisfight.org go to action items on the left hand side of the screen. Than in the middle of the screen it says how can you help Terri than click Join the Justice Petition. You click on that than you can sign if you like.

melanie
March 29th, 2005, 04:57 PM
what about quality of life? is there any point being alive if one cannot actually experience being alive??

by the way, who is paying to keep her alive, is it family or the public??

chico2
March 29th, 2005, 05:18 PM
Princess,I am sorry but Terri is beyond just braindamaged,although it must be horrible to watch your child starve to death,no matter what condition she's in,I believe she should be let go.
Melanie,Terris husband was awarded $1.2 million in a malpractise suit
,all which has been used up in her care and years of lawyers-fees.
Had there been no money,I am sure Terrie would have left this earth a long time ago,not 15yrs later.

Princesss04
March 29th, 2005, 07:40 PM
Like I stated before I do not disagree with the fact that she may not ever come out of this or the fact that something should not be done but my thing is they do not even kill prisioners this way. They are gone in a matter of seconds where she has been days. I just do not think it is right the way they are doing this. :sad:

chico2
March 30th, 2005, 09:22 AM
I know what you mean Princess,but I guess there is just no legal way to help her out :sad:

MegShawnMom
March 30th, 2005, 09:48 AM
By removing the feeding tube no person can 'bear' the guilt of killing Terri.It's nature way of dealing with her.Now it's nature not people killing her.
If they were to give her a lethal injection that would be murder,intentional and deliberate.Somebody must be held accountable
It's all in how you want to be preceived,
Her parents must be going through hell watching her slowly die and unable to do anything for her.
On the news today the Pope has to be fed through a feeding tube,as he slowly dies will they take away his feeding tube, don't think so.

Princesss04
March 30th, 2005, 10:25 AM
They will not remove the Popes feeding tube, I think we all know that. I feel sorry for him and his family as well. Best wishes to all involved!

badger
March 30th, 2005, 10:29 AM
I'm not sure about that, Chico, doesn't Medicaid take care of these things? The only hitch is, I believe you have to be destitute to get it. I read somewhere that medicaid is already paying part of her care and the hospice is picking up the rest.

From everything I have heard, it is not painful to die this way and not that uncommon among people who are terminally ill, who choose to stop eating and drinking. Remember Nancy B? She lived in Quebec City, very young - about 25 I think - she got a bad case of Guillaume Barré, a virus, and was completely paralyzed, except maybe her eyeballs, and the doctors held out no hope of recovery. She had to go to court to stop the hospital from feeding her and won her case. If she had asked for an overdose of morphine, it would have been refused, although that is also done, quietly and with no fanfare, in Canada and the US.

I saw a documentary recently about a woman here in Quebec, a journalist who developed MS in her early thirties, was finally confined to a chair, in terrible pain. She went to Switzerland to an organization that helps people die, all above board, doctors, etc. She drank a sedative, then a massive amount of sleeping pills in solution, slipped away, surrounded by a small group of people. It was all very simple. The camera followed her right to the end. Someone asked her about the camera when she arrived in Switzerland, something like 'is it for television?' 'Yes', she replied, 'and I'm the star!'
I have no problem with these decisions but not sure I could do it myself.

chico2
March 30th, 2005, 10:42 AM
Badger,I actually heard during an interview with one of the many,very expensive lawyers,where a question was asked whether Michael was to gain any money by Terries death.The answer was no and the $1.3 million he had recieved was put into the care of Terrie for 15 yrs+lawyers-fees of course.
I am not sure if medicare would cover her expenses,but I somehow doubt that,since most doctors agree she is beyond help and as far as I know the family is not destitute,probably close to though,every"expert"they call in on Terries behalf cost them between $100-$800/hour.

glasslass
March 30th, 2005, 06:59 PM
Hubby and I both signed "Medical Directives" about 2 years ago, giving each other the right to make decisions for our health care if we are unable to do so ourselves. If my hubby is not available, then my younger brother. Even though I know my mom agrees with me that I would not want to live this way, I know she could not bring herself to make that decision. If nothing else, I hope this sad case has made many more people aware and that they will take action to prevent this from happening to them. I've given a copy of our directives to our doctor as well as to my brother, and a copy is at home near the telephone. My mom wouldn't fight my hubby or brother on this, but I couldn't put the decision on her.

CyberKitten
March 30th, 2005, 07:12 PM
The pope's feeding tube could be much more easily removed tho! He is getting an NG tube - through the nose. Terri was on TPN - more comprehensive and usually requires sedation or anesthesia to be placed in. I have administed both and been a patient with both, actually both at the same time! :sad: NOT fun, either one tho an ng tube if you are alert - as the pope is and I was at that time - is more uncomfortable than TPN.

One of my best friends - a respirologist - helped a desperate patient once. The man was dying paindully of throat cancer. For her efforts, she was charged with murder! Some members of his family seized the opportunity for their 15 minutes of fame. She was acquitted and continues to practice medicince and it would have been a horrendous loss if she had been convicted. We need to change the laws in our country so dying is easier than it is now. It is better than it used to be but we have ways to go and I speak as someone who sees death more than enough in the course of a week. I battle it and I do not always win, alas! But it is a part of life and I think Eliz Kubler-Ross's book - which came out just before I entered medical school, was a Godsend!

That said, it bothers me that Terri is starving to death even though that is not as bad as it sounds and she is getting pain meds, etc. I think it is tough for everyone in that family and the trouble began when her husband was awarded the money - most of which went to her care - but he got what he could afford and therein is another delimma. This is not an issue where someone is brain dead. Her brain might be "like jello" as someone said- but "brain dead", another term I hate - is the state someone is in before their organs are harvested. Their brain, heart, essential organs are kept alive by machines. Terri is no where near that situation! To me, ethically, she is still alive. I would be happier about this sitiuation if I knew for certain this was her wish.

I am obviously conflited by this situation as I suspect most of us are. It may be worse for me because I have experienced some of ther unpleasent procedure discussed plus I have to inflict them on small children, some of whom die anyway!

Anyhow, I will look at the happy faces on my bandaid and try not to think of this sad situation!

doggy lover
March 31st, 2005, 07:42 AM
My grandmother passed away last year from cancer. But really medically she dehidrated, the IV she was on for almost 2 months was stopped and she hadn't eaten in about 2 months as well. To keep in the IV and to have given her a feeding tube either down her nose or into her stomach would have just prolonged the end. Sometimes it is better to let nature take its course. She was allert until almost the end, and when it became painful she was given painkillers. I loved her very much but what would have been the point of keeping her going the cancer would have killed her anyway. She died peacefully last year on March 1 in her home where she had lived for over 50 years with her children by her side.

Trinitie
March 31st, 2005, 10:47 AM
This morning on CNN:
PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- Terri Schiavo, the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman who became the centerpiece of a national right-to-die battle, died Thursday morning, nearly two weeks after doctors removed the feeding tube that had sustained her for more than a decade.


May she rest in peace. Whether or not she wanted to die is now irrelivant. Let's let the poor woman rest now.

chico2
March 31st, 2005, 10:57 AM
Trinitie,thank you for the news,it comes to me as good news,Terrie is finally at peace :love:

Princesss04
March 31st, 2005, 11:21 AM
Rest in Peace, Terri. My prayers are with all the family (or most of the family) and friends. At least all her suffering is over. This is a matter that we will never forget! :sad:

heeler's rock!
March 31st, 2005, 12:04 PM
I also want to say rest in peace Terri. I just read on MSN that Michael Schiavo and his attorney didn't let her parents in to be with her the final minutes of her life. I didn't agree with this from the start, but it doesn't matter now. I hope she is at peace, in a much better place. God bless her soul...... :love:

Princesss04
March 31st, 2005, 01:33 PM
That is right he would not let them go in with her when she died. That is one of the many things I do not agree with him on. But, oh well not like alot can be done now. Well at least she can rest in peace now or I hope. They will start the autoposy soon, I think. The results will be made public. Well at least her "husband" can move on a get married and be with the new family he started years ago. :sad: RIP Terri!

sammiec
March 31st, 2005, 01:44 PM
RIP Terri. God Bless you.

I'm sorry about your grandmother Doggylover. I tend to agree with you though. In my personal opinion I do not see that it is right that people are kept alive by these means. I think nature should run it's course and people she pass when they are intended to. In this case Terri had been on the feeding tube for 15 years with no visible signs that she was improving. It was sadly her time, about 10 years ago. I in no way am meaning to sound hurtful and rude.

This is very similar to having people alive on respirators for years. They cannot breath on their own and are kept alive for reasons of the people that are alive. Pluggin the plug on them seems to be a relatively accepted act; but Dear Terri could not feed herself... without food, she would pass.... I veiw these things as one in the same.

I just feel that there are millions of people that are starving and dying on a daily basis around the world simply because they do not have the food needed to survive. These people would otherwise tend to live health and fufilling lives if they were not starved. We should concentrate our efforts on helping those that are less fortunate.

There are many different opinions about this case, and I don't know that there is really a right answer. All I know is that people are hurtful.

Princesss04
March 31st, 2005, 01:50 PM
Sammi I think you are right on the fact that there are hundereds of people and children that have no food or water and what are we doing about them. :confused: It is so very sad! :sad:

heidiho
March 31st, 2005, 01:55 PM
Her husband should have decided,and for the people mad that he moved on with his life,what the hell was he supposed to do,die with her 15 years ago,i know my oarents would NEVER want to see me like that,and there is no way they would let me be like that for 15 years,come on,she was not gonna get better.

heidiho
March 31st, 2005, 02:10 PM
I really dont get how anyone can think that is living....It isnt any kind of life at all,we are talking 15 years not 2 years.....

Shamrock
March 31st, 2005, 02:17 PM
Terri's struggle is over now, dear soul. May she rest in peace now..
The whole issue was heartwrenching, on that everyone agrees.

How sad it was to see the "cause" overshadow her life at the end, morphed into a legal/ethical/ poltical platform of epic proportions.

The intense publicity and controversy will at least prompt many people to draw up their own living will.

I do not agree with her husbands refusal to allow the parents in for her last moments here on Earth. Hasnt there been enough pain suffered by all?

heeler's rock!
March 31st, 2005, 02:35 PM
This is very similar to having people alive on respirators for years. They cannot breath on their own and are kept alive for reasons of the people that are alive. Pluggin the plug on them seems to be a relatively accepted act; but Dear Terri could not feed herself... without food, she would pass.... I veiw these things as one in the same.

I do agree with you sammi, in that that is not how nature intended us to live. I don't agree that just because you cannot eat by yourself, you should let nature run its course. My sil is in nursing and she's been at the Foothills hospital for the past few weeks. She told me about a woman that has a rare condition with her stomache. If she eats anything, it doesn't pass into her digestive system and she'll either throw it up whole, or pass it through the other end, whole! This only started 2 years ago, and it's believed it's a parasite or bacteria she picked up while travelling. Now she has a feeding tube directly inserted into her intestines. Should she have her feeding tube removed? She's not intended to live like this, but without the tube, she has no way of getting nutrition. I know it's vastly different from Terri's case, but still has the same principal.

I don't believe Michael should have "died" with Terri 15 years ago, and yes, he has the right to move on with his life. I wouldn't want my husband to be alone if that happened to me, but he's obviously not as sincere about Terri as he was back then. He wouldn't even let her own parents be with her when she died. Why? Why did he have to be so mean? I guess we'll never know now, and it doesn't matter. She's gone and no matter what we believe, all we can agree on is that she be at peace. I hope her family gets the answers they seek, and I hope they now have some closure. :love:

glasslass
March 31st, 2005, 08:02 PM
Terri's husband was with her when she died, as he had a right to be. I'm sure if her parents had been allowed to be there also, it would not have been a peaceful death.

Karin
March 31st, 2005, 09:27 PM
Gods speed Terri.

LavenderRott
March 31st, 2005, 09:35 PM
It is my understanding, from what I have heard through the media, that Michael spent the last two weeks living at the hospice. Due to her parents' inability to peacefully be in a room with him - when he was with Terri they were not and vice versa. Her parents were not in the room when Terri died partly because of that and partly because, just before she died, her brother and sister were asked to leave the room so that medical personnel could check her condition. Her brother got into a loud discussion with law enforcement personnel.

Maybe it is because my husband is so much younger then I am that I feel the way I do, but I think that it is wonderful that Michael found someone to love and grow old with. Someone who could understand that Terri's needs were important. Someone to talk to and hold when he needed someone. I could never wish 15 years of loneliness and lovelessness on my husband. I would never wish him to grow old and never know the love of his own child.

goldenblaze
March 31st, 2005, 10:20 PM
I would not want to see my sisters like this, plus I know they would never want to be kept alive this way. I feel for everyone. :sad:

chico2
April 1st, 2005, 08:42 AM
I believe the reason Michael did not allow Terries parents in the room was not out of spite,but simply because they had police escort,in case they would attempt to "rescue"Terrie and Michael did not want Terrie to die with a policeman in the room.

heidiho
April 1st, 2005, 09:31 AM
I also think her parents were just not accepting the reality of it,and were acting in a very selfish way..I cannot begin to imagine the lose of your child,but i do know myself and to watch my child like that would rip my apart and i could not do it,she died 15 yeras ago..

Princesss04
April 1st, 2005, 09:32 AM
Chico I heard that as well and than I also heard that her brother got into it with the police and had to be asked to leave by the police and he did not want Terris passing to be in the middle of a room full of people that would be fighting so he asked them to leave. That is what I heard anyway. But I have heard like 5 differant stories. :D