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Your Not Welcome

Safyre
March 18th, 2005, 09:47 PM
or at least that is how I feel from most of the people on this website anymore.
Because I came on here,looking for advice, and the only advice was some I could not take, it seems that everything I say is suspect, and incorrect now.
I thought this would be a wonderful place that I could share my animals with others who understand my love and passion fro thme... but I guess I am not welcome, only one person even bothered to say hello.
I hope you all learn that your passion for animals is great ... but if you over step, and force your opinions on the people asking for help, you are doing nothing for them, and have wrecked your chance to help.

Trinitie
March 18th, 2005, 09:52 PM
or at least that is how I feel from most of the people on this website anymore.
Because I came on here,looking for advice, and the only advice was some I could not take, it seems that everything I say is suspect, and incorrect now.
I thought this would be a wonderful place that I could share my animals with others who understand my love and passion fro thme... but I guess I am not welcome, only one person even bothered to say hello.
I hope you all learn that your passion for animals is great ... but if you over step, and force your opinions on the people asking for help, you are doing nothing for them, and have wrecked your chance to help.


Opinions are just that, opinions. If facts are being provided, and it's requested that sources be given for the facts, then it's only fair to provide the sources. There are times when even the mods say things that are suspect. You can't expect everyone to agree everytime - it just won't happen. You have to understand that most of the people here either run rescue organizations, help rescues in some fashion, or are so passionate about animals that judgements can be clouded. You, I, and everyone else on this site must answer to the others. If you feel you've been mistreated, that's what you'll feel, and there's nothing anyone can say to make you think differently.
And, for the record, there are so many people joining so quickly now, that usually "welcomes" are made to the OP when a question is posted, or it could take a few (or more) posts before a welcome is given. I, myself, have given "welcomes" as late as 20-30 posts into someone being here. Just because someone doesn't say "welcome", doesn't mean they aren't. Heck, the only one (if I remember correctly) that said welcome to me, was Marko. Did I feel slighted? Nah, it was ok by me. I KNEW I was welcome, even though the words weren't said.

maddoxies
March 18th, 2005, 09:55 PM
Did you receive my private message?

jjgeonerd
March 18th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Try not to get too worked up. It doesn't seem to me that anyone was attacking you, just speaking their mind...like you. Keep in mind that you are reading what someone has to say instead of hearing it from their mouth...meaning you infere that persons tone. If you think they are attacking you, then you'll infere an angry tone when one may not have been intended. I find myself doing things like that all the time when I think something is wrong. More often than not I'm just overreacting.

Anyways, just my opinion...take it for what it's worth. Also, nobody welcomed me, but then again there wasn't an introduction thread at that time. It's not intentional in any way.

Ghullums_mom
March 18th, 2005, 11:13 PM
i knew exactly how you feel. thats how i felt when i first came to this site. people here are really quick to burn ya. but i understand its cause they love animals and there sick of seeing people treat them like disposable friends. and i feel the same, but if you give them a chance alot of them are great loving people. they just love a good newbie roast....all the time

dmc123
March 18th, 2005, 11:39 PM
Sorry you feel that way, i have been here since May 2004, and have been welcomed. I love this site, it is a site I check daily. I don't get the responses i want each time, but why should I expect someone to answer what I want to hear or when I want to hear it. Still most times someone will say something.

Don't come here expecting what you want to hear, or when you want to hear it, some here are buddies and chat daily. Somedays, you will hear back three times in one day, another time, maybe once in a week. I come in almost daily, but not as a chatter or a buddy, and don't expect those here to chime in on what I say right away. All the advice i have been given thus far, has been good, and I write back when I agree or disagree.

As far as the advice you are asking for, be careful what you ask for, these folks are very interested in animal welfare. Don't ask what to do about a dog or cat bleeding....take it to a vet. And so, on and so on....

If you are wanting immediate answers, find buddies and use aol buddy list or msn messenger, or wait here and get good animal loving answers.

Just my opinion,
Diane

CyberKitten
March 19th, 2005, 12:28 AM
I am sorry you feel this way. I thought I said hello when I replied to your query the first time around - is that what you mean? I have to admit I almost never look at the introduction section (I did not introduce myself I just jumped in). It was a function of the amount of time I have and where I can allocate it and I click the New Posts and work from there. So pls be assured no snub was intended.

We are an opionated group here who are not at all hesitant to express those opinions and I try to be diplomatic. It is late so I do not recall offhand what your first question was and I do not judge people by their first question. I am often offended by people whose posts reveal they might be a backyard breeder or favour declawing in which case I probably debate the issue with them but I do believe people can disagree in a respectful and dignified manner. I was offended by what someone replied to a post of mine tonite and told them so - with me, WYSIWYG - to use that computer acronym, lol
I kmow I was overtired when I replied but I still believe they belittled and called into question my response - which was backed up by research (my stock in trade) - and I will not hesitate to defend myself.

There have been a few times I have felt frustrated by something someone said but in the end, we "made up" after disagreeing over whatever it was, :)

And just because I may have disagreed with what you said on one post (if I did, I do not recall, lol) does not mean I am not in accord with everything you post. That makes no sense. Nor would I judge someone from one post. Everyone makes mistakes, has a bad day or may not see something the way I do. That's life!

Safyre
March 19th, 2005, 12:52 AM
GoldenGirl - No I did not get your private message.
CyberKitten - the 4lb pregnant cat issue was my first post to this website. A website found out of desperation.
After i started posting on that, I introduced myself , and put up pics of my aniamsl, which were overlooked, and yes, i do wonder if that was because A LOT of people read that thread and were unhappy with me.

DMC123 - You never joined the topic of the 4 lb cat, or at least, not that I can recall. Beleive me, i got answers to that immediately.

Thats really allI have to say at this time I guess

CyberKitten
March 19th, 2005, 01:32 AM
Oh right, I recall now. I hope for a miracle in that case or that you will be able to somehow help the cat! I am sure you will keep us up to date if there are changes and I am happy that you are trying to help this kitty!

I did look at your pets but did not post anything - I do not post everytime I peek at messages. Your pets are lovely and you obviously care for them!
I posted pix of my little Siamese kitty a few days ago and I think maybe one person responded. I just wanted to share them - I think she is a beautiful cat but then we all think that of our felines, lol I would not worry about the lack of responses there - I am sure people had little time to respond to mine too. And how many times and ways can they tell me my cat is cute - or maybe their silence means they are diplomatically saying they don't think so. We all, after all, have different tastes, lol

LavenderRott
March 19th, 2005, 01:50 AM
All posts don't get answers. I have been here a long time, but I don't think anyone noticed when my rottweiler passed away a couple of weeks ago.

Lots of people may read your threads and just not have anything helpful to add, or they may not want to become part of the yelling match.

Personally, I think it was rather crass of people to tell you to steal a pet from a friend.

You know what they say about opinions. And some people have experience with things that others do not. This is the place to share that experience. Also remember, this is a PUBLIC forum, meaning you don't have to be a member to read what is said. Some of what is said about breeding and such is not just meant for the OP but for the person who is willing to read and learn but doesn't want to become a member.

Eleni
March 19th, 2005, 02:32 AM
I would persoanlly say you ARE welcome , at least in my mind

I was greatful for some good advice you gave me on questions ive posted about my Sammy,

I think alot of times when it comes to message boards when people first join they always feel a bit like they are outside looking in because your coming someplace where there already usualy exists a circle of friends, sometimes it just takes time to get to know everyone.

my advice is give it a bit of time and patience, im new here too, LOL we can be new together:)

nah seriously I wouldnt sweat the little things much:)

Eleni

ScottGoodburn
March 19th, 2005, 07:51 AM
Safyre, being a new member around, I agree with a lot of the things you say. I find that if you ask a question, sometimes your just looking for an answer or maybe a recommendation. Instead you get put down by people who think you have done wrong by your dog or cat and then you get an entire one sided opinion on what you should do.

Katherine1
March 19th, 2005, 08:56 AM
Sorry to hear that you feel this way Sayfre.
When I found this site after my Sadie past away, I was looking for a dog free to a good home. I thought that I would find compassion here. Needless to say I got bombarded with opinions about that (free to good home). Although it disturbed me ( more I think because I was still in the grief mode after losing my Sadie ) because I was having a hard time finding a furbaby that someone didn't want 5 or 6 hundred dollars for which I could ill afford at the time being right after Christmas and the shelters that were close to me didn't have any puppies or dogs. I expect most people express their opinion to things they are realy passionate about as I express mine and there are times when people just don't agree about some things.
I have been on here for about 3 months now and I check the new posts when I log on. I try to answer posts that I may know something about or yes even give my opinion about. I don't always have the time to answer posts and I think to myself that I will answer them later on when I have the time but seeing as how I check the new posts by the time that I go back on I forget which post that I wanted to post to and it may not be there till several days later. I don't intentionally slight anyone. I also try to help when I can - like when someone needs pics reduced for posting. Some people don't have the program on their computer for changing pics. I usually send them a message with my email address so they can send me their pics and I reduce them and email them back to them. I like playing with pics and have even lightened a few that I couldn't see well on a post ( hope this is alright ) so that people can see the furbabies better.
Overall I enjoy this site. I usually check this site several times a day and my husband even asked me the other day who I am chatting with after he goes to bed LOL he thinks I am nuts because I told him that I have to check pets.ca one more time before I go to bed.
BTW LavenderRott I am sorry to hear about your furbaby's passing. I do not usually look at the rainbow bridge because my losing Sadie is still painful (she passed Dec 28) but I am thinking that maybe I should be responding to those post as I know how they must be feeling after losing a member of the family and at least offer my condolences as I know it doesn't take away the pain but it does help knowing that others understand the loss.
Sorry so long I guess I got on a roll here :D again.

chico2
March 19th, 2005, 09:02 AM
Safyr,I looked at your animals and they are really sweet,I think you take good care of them.I did not feel a welcome was needed,since we already had 3 pages of discussions regarding your friends very unfortunate animals.
It was cut short and I still wonder and worry about the little cat,but no answer,no update... :confused: She should be due by now,I would assume..
I cried over those posts,I was angry at the owner and we were left totally up in the air...
Every time I see"Safyr"I am hoping for some good news,I just cannot simply forget about your first posts.

wjranch
March 19th, 2005, 09:19 AM
I totally agree with your opinions of some on this board. There are opinions and then there are tirades. I am 100% in favor of posting and expressing ones opinions, however, I'm not in favor of posting attacks or defamations against a person..new poster or not.
If this board exists in order to inform and educate pet owners, it should do so in a respectable manner. If I had paid the money I paid to go to college and my teachers spoke to me in that manner, I'd have had a refund! That being said, I also have the option of removing this board from my favorites list. I won't be doing that, because there are folks on here who truly do care, and have great knowledge. Those who have it and can express it in a caring manner.
Look for those folks..don't judge the whole place by the strongly expressed, poorly constructed opinions of a few.
Stick around :D

chico2
March 19th, 2005, 09:56 AM
Lavenderrott,I am sorry if I did not comment on your beautiful dogs passing :sorry: Sometimes words seems so trivial and it's hard to express how you feel,it's so very sad..but that does not mean I don't feel some of your pain,I've cried buckets of tears for the owners losing their cats/dogs and sometimes it's better to stay away from that thread.
So,if I did not comment,especially to you,whom we all know quiet good,I am sorry :sad:

chico2
March 19th, 2005, 10:04 AM
WJranch,there are subjects that will bring out heated discussions,but we all are on the animals side.....these subjects being,irresponsable breeding,the need to spay/neuter and cat de-clawing,24/7 outdoor dogs,only to mention a few.If anyone has followed this Forum any lenght of time,they would be informed about how most people feel.
Opinions differ and I think we respect that fact,but not if it's about what in many cases is considered abuse.

Little Angels
March 19th, 2005, 10:14 AM
Safrye, you are welcome on this board. It can be a very difficult board at times. Many a times I do not reply to posts, I just read them, as I try to avoid being blasted and questioned on every word. When I feel stronly to answer I will PM and let them now how I feel. As everyone on here has their own opinions and ways of dealing with situations. All to many times the original topic at hand will get lost.

Please feel free to post as this is how people will learn from your questions and/or experiences. Just remember not to take everything to heart.

luvmybeagles
March 19th, 2005, 10:45 AM
*Hesitantly adds to thread*

I too am new here.

This board is a little intimidating. I belong to many forums about many different things. I even administrate and moderate at two of them, so I know my way around message boards quite well.

This board can be very harsh at times.

Until coming here, I never knew people had such a negative feeling towards those "backyard breeders". I'd never even heard the term used before.

The same goes for feeding raw foods to pets. I didn't know you could do that. It was something I'd never encountered before.

There's a lot of things that we don't know. And if no-one tells us, if we're never educated about it, then we'll never learn.

I've seen a thread turn vicious at the turn of the hand if someone mentions they want to breed their dog, or if their cat is pregnant. Flame wars ensue, words are exchanged, and it gets downright scary. The person who has come here for help, perhaps because they didn't know where else to go, is vanquished. They get no help, they only get chastised for being so evil as to want to breed their dog. They get told how stupid they are for not having had their cat spayed before she got pregnant. How does that help? No-one is getting educated. They're only getting humiliated and made angry by the harsh words directed towards them. And then, people wait for them to make a reply. "Why haven't they replied yet?" people write. After 15-20 people have told them how wrong they are, how stupid they are, they still wonder why they don't reply. If 15 people made me feel bad when I asked a question that was important to me ... well, I wouldn't reply. I'd be afraid of another deluge of negative comments directed my way.

Sometimes the advise is given in a mature and helpful manner. But more often the offending poster is shot down in flames and simply leaves this message board without the information they came here seeking.

This is just an observation I've made. For the most part I like this forum. I enjoy looking at the pictures of people's pets, and I hope the advise I've given people has been useful to them in some way.

*Waits for deluge of negative comments to come my way*

wjranch
March 19th, 2005, 10:46 AM
chico2 I totally appreciate valid opinions. What I was trying to get across is the fact that jumping down peoples throats is really not the best way to educate them.
I also agree with s/n and responsible breeding of animals. I commend everyone who is responsible enough to do those things. I just think there is a much more appropriate way to educate... my mother always taught me "you'll catch more flies with honey then vinegar" I try to live by that :) So, IF I have an opinion, I too will voice it. I will just do it in a less offensive manner then some others :D And hope they will learn a better way to do the things they're doing (or stop doing some of them all together)

Friends?? :D

wjranch
March 19th, 2005, 10:48 AM
luvmybeagles - AMEN!! :grouphug:

amber416
March 19th, 2005, 10:58 AM
I don't know about this...i have never seen anybody actually be mean or rude on this board. To be upset because people don't say what you want to hear or with the amount of patience you would prefer i think is ridiculous. It is nobody's job to sugar coat things and i think any response you get should be appreciated. It is people taking time out of their lives to help you, even if you don't agree with their suggestions. I highly doubt people wake up in the morning thinking "hmm..what kind of fight can i start, or who can i 'put down' on the pets.ca boards today". All of the responses have the best interest of the animal in mind and for some reason a lot of people don't want to admit that. Many people offered you good avice BESIDES stealing that cat. Some of which you certainly could have taken and i know i felt like you were endlessly defensive and not really wanting any real advice. I feel like you wanted someone to say "you are doing all you can do, good job" and i for one didn't feel like you were. You have to understand, that was a case of serious abuse and it upset people and is hard for some people to get out of their minds, i'm sure. I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt but this is a message board on the internet. Not everything gets responded to, look at the amount of views a thread gets and compare it to the amount of posts. If you stick it out and listen to people on here you will learn a lot.....and by the way, just for the record, i did look at your introduction pictures and your pets are beautiful, sorry i did not post.

poohbear123
March 19th, 2005, 11:07 AM
I know what you are saying safyre (spell??) i find many people to be very harsh on this board and make you feel very unwelcome...i know I went through this awhile ago when I asked for help about a growth on my hampsters leg and made the mistake of saying that I didnt want to spend alot of money to take him to the vet knowing that hampsters dont live long and I really didnt know if they could do anything for him anyways....he has since passed on poor little fella. But if you can hang in here there is lots of really good info on here and you can meet some really nice people. How is your friends cat doing I wish you all the best and hope everything works out ok. :thumbs up

Prin
March 19th, 2005, 12:35 PM
If it makes you feel any better I think there were only three people who answered my intro post and I put all my classic doggy shots up there too. I don't think it was meant to make you feel unwelcome, I think that there is just so much to look at on this site that people don't get around to the welcomes.

As for rudeness, yes people were very rude to you in the first thread you posted but you touched a subject (animal suffering) that hits people in this forum hard. I've noticed that even though we all have a different writing style, a lot of people read the boards from different views and different tones and things upset people that you would never expect. Sometimes I have to reread my posts just to make sure that no matter how you might read it, where ever you put the emphasis in a sentence, it can't be construed as offensive. I'm not too good at that.

There are a few posters who give people a hard time sometimes when you talk about subjects they are passionate about, but that doesn't stop me. Even if I have a lot of doggy experience, I always want to learn more. Even about controversial stuff.

I think I hooked on not too long before you and I think I have seen most of your posts, and I think (aside from the pregnant kitty thread) that you have good things to say and it would be a loss to this board to lose a different opinion.

I guess that I try to see the posts around here as people saying what they know, not people trying to start fights, so I read it with that tone. Like your post about raw-- it was clear to me that you were not sure but the only dog you know that eats raw became aggressive, so MAYBE there is a link. And a few people misunderstood it, thinking that you were declaring that aggressive behavior is a consequence of a raw diet.

I think we all just need to chill out and when we get upset by a post, assume first that maybe we misread it, and maybe these posters aren't trying to upset everyone. Yes, we are all passionate about animals and about animal welfare, but we need to ask for clarity before we assume the worst.

(And if people take offense by asking for clarity, well, then we're a lost cause...)

Trinitie
March 19th, 2005, 12:45 PM
GoldenGirl - No I did not get your private message.
CyberKitten - the 4lb pregnant cat issue was my first post to this website. A website found out of desperation.
After i started posting on that, I introduced myself , and put up pics of my aniamsl, which were overlooked, and yes, i do wonder if that was because A LOT of people read that thread and were unhappy with me.

DMC123 - You never joined the topic of the 4 lb cat, or at least, not that I can recall. Beleive me, i got answers to that immediately.

Thats really allI have to say at this time I guess

Safyre,
No offense was intended, but as you can tell, we are a VERY passionate lot when it comes to animals. If your first posts were regarding a 4lb pregnant cat, it could explain some of the harsh feelings you've been feeling. BUT, one thing you'll come to realize, the feelings we have towards people who post what we don't like to read, can change pretty quickly. There are people posting here who started off on a rocky start. But, they are still here and are contributing to the education of new members.

You've learned what kind of people we are, from the reaction you got to your post. We may have looked at your pets photos, but may have not commented on them. Should this reflect badly on you? Not in the slightest. Threads are often read, but often not talked about.

Heck, I posted a cute little item in the Jokes section titled "Dear Cats and Dogs:". People read it, but I've only had one response from BritishVixen. Does that tell me that it's not funny? Heck no. I KNOW it's funny, but I know it without people having to tell me so. Are your animals cute and precious? You bet they are! But you knew that without us having to tell you. It's the same for LavenderRott, who's dog passed away recently. She knows how we feel without us having to spell it out for her. We feel for her loss, as she would if one of our pets passed away.

Don't hold how we post at the beginning against us, as we won't hold it against you for the 4lb cat post. We're all adults here (well, most of us) and we know how to move on. Life's too short to hold grudges.

Safyre
March 19th, 2005, 03:18 PM
I am not going to defend the small pregnant female thread. The advice that was given was good advice, and the advice that was already being given to the friend. It was stuff I already was doing. In my last post, i thanked everyone for thier posts.

Reading through the posts.... I am glad to hear that i am not the only one that takes this website, and some of the people on it as being terribly harsh, and that, some people understand that jumping on someone is not the way to help them.

The fact of the matter is, some people find the website out of sheer desperation, looking for advice on how to help and animal... and if that person gets bombarded, jumped on right away, they leave and are not helped.
I am passionate about my animals, and about the welfare of animals as well. I also know that shoving my opinion on someone, doesn't do ANY good. My friend, is now ignoring me due to the situation with Baby, because I pushed too hard.

There is something I want to ask, I asked someone through PM the other night. I want to this to be a CIVILIZED discussion.
Why is declawing a cat wrong? I have seen a few people on this site that are against it. No one I have come across in my life has been against it, so I am wondering if someone can explain, intelligently, why it is a bad practise.

Oh, and to those who cannot spell my nickname: my real name is Heather, if you want to type that instead. lol sorry

Sneaky2006
March 19th, 2005, 03:26 PM
In my opinion declawing a cat is wrong because it's a form of amputation. They don't just cut out the nail, they amputate the first joint of EACH toe. It's very painful for cats. No one should get a cat if they don't want it to scratch, that's what they do.

Also my opinion, there's been numerous discussions/debates about declawing on this forum. You can do a search for declawing and see for yourself. I don't know if another declaw discussion is such a good idea when it's already been done.

Here's one that was pages and pages long.
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=5333&highlight=declaw

lezzpezz
March 19th, 2005, 03:37 PM
Safyre, go here and read this: http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/declaw.html

Then here, to view pictures of actual procedure: (graphic photos! of an actual surgery): http://declaw.lisaviolet.com/declawpics.html

This should tell you and show you why declawing is not a popular procedure to many on this site, but, a cruel procedure to be performed on cats/kittens, usually for the convenience of the owners' and their furniture.

Having personally worked for a vet that performed this inhumane procedure, I can attest that it does no good to the cat and is extremely painful. I have seen botched jobs (performed by other vets) that led to amputation and finally death of the animal due to gangrene. I have seen cats who have an awful recovery period. It is just sad and painful.

Picture it as having the first knuckle on each of your fingers and toes removed. Enough said.

Safyre
March 19th, 2005, 03:44 PM
Sneaky, thank you for providing that thread for me, didn't know that I could do a search of threads... again, relativley new to the site.

chico2
March 19th, 2005, 04:33 PM
Safyre,in my opinion,a GOOD vet,who really care,would discourage amputation of a cats toes.My vet did not perform the procedure,thought it to be unnecessary and cruel,my motto was always,cats come with claws,if you are too concerned about your possessions get an aquarium,not a cat :D

CyberKitten
March 19th, 2005, 05:46 PM
This is one of the better declawing sites - in that it provides many links to other sites. There are also some personal stories that demonstrate the horror declawing can cause.

http://declaw.lisaviolet.com/

This one is also good:

http://www.water-spirit.com/Dragons_Lair/declaw.shtml

Declawing is actually an amputation of the last joint of a cat's "toes". There is no good reason to declaw a cat - agree with Chico, if you want a pet and worry about your furniture, get an aquarium or better yet, a stuffed toy. No worries there. Cats NEED their claws - and any surgery we put an animals through should be for medical reasons alone, not for the satisfaction of the human. (ie - protecting one's belongings). Declawing is traumatizing to a cat - just as any surgery is.

Cats can easily be taught to use scratching posts and one can also trim their nails (I do YY's once a month tho I examine them often).

There is also the product called SoftPaws but several people I know who have used it have not been impressed.

As most of you know, declawing is illegal in most industrial countries. Canada and the US are exceptions. The municipality of West Hollywood in California recently outlawed and there are more communities examining it (thankfully).
Also, if you show your cat in competition, declawing means automatic disqualification. It is simply not natural. Most reputable breeders have clauses (no pun intended) stipulating the cat will not be declawed.

Many vets are also opposed (tho many alas obviously do perform it, sigh!). In fact, some execellent peer reviewed journals have published research indicating just often complications can occur with this procedure. And compared to other surgeries, the complication rate is abnormally high! One vet wrote. "Declawing is actually an amputation of the last joint of your cat's "toes". When you envision that, it becomes clear why declawing is not a humane act. It is a painful surgery, with a painful recovery period. And remember that during the time of recuperation from the surgery your cat would still have to use its feet to walk, jump, and scratch in its litter box regardless of the pain it is experiencing." Christianne Schelling, DVM"

Two of these studues found:
1) Vet Surg 1994 Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80) concluded "Fifty percent of the cats had one or more complications immediately after surgery.... 19.8% developed complications after release."
2) (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1998 Aug 1;213(3):370-3) comparing the complications of declawing with Tenectomy concluded "Owners should be aware of the high complication rate for both procedures." Many cats also suffer a loss of balance because they can no longer achieve a secure foothold on their amputated stumps.

One highly regarded veterinary textbook by Turner and Bateson on the biology of cat behavior concludes a short section on scratching behavior with the following statement: "The operative removal of the claws, as is sometimes practiced to protect furniture and curtains, is an act of abuse and should be forbidden by law in all, not just a few countries."

Another vet wrote:
"The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of cats' recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so horrible that it has been employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge." (Excerpted from The Cat Who Cried For Help, Dodman N, Bantam Books, New York).


Yet another study conducted by a cat rescue group found Seventy percent of cats turned into pounds and shelters for behavioral problems are declawed cats.”

Recently,I asked one of my young patients about a cat they had adopted from the SPCA. The cat had been brought in because of behaviour problems - one of the 70% I guess. I asked him if he enjoyed the family's new pet. "He's great", J responded "and he is cute but he has stumpy feet."

I just wonder time and time again why people who really love their pets would subject them to this cruel and really useless and disabling procedure, betraying their trust at the same time. It makes no sense at all.

Anyway - I'd better get down from my soapbox. I read somewhere declawing is to the cat lovers' world what abortion is to some in the human world. Controversial and emotional!

Katherine1
March 19th, 2005, 06:01 PM
I had a kitten a long time ago named Boots. I had her for awhile and discovered to my horror that I was very alergic to cat scratches. When she would accidently scratch me, the area would swell and and turn an angry red. I made the choice to have her declawed because the only other solution at the time was to find her a new home and I loved her and didn't know if someone else would take care of her the way I did. She was an indoor cat and lived to be 14 before she passed away. However, had it not been for my health I don't think that I would have had it done. I love cats but after she passed away I decided to own dogs. One of the main reasons was because I did not want to have to do that to another cat. I was lucky she did not have any complications due to this procedure but I have known some friends of mine that had problems when they did this to their cats.

Prin
March 19th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Ok... I don't agree fully. I have only seen the vet side of this, I have never had a cat for its whole life (my only cat was a roommate's and it died at 8mos of heart failure...). I have never seen a vet use toenail cutters to declaw. I am sure it happens, but no vet I know uses that "technique" (or lack of technique...). The vet I worked at did it delicately with a scalpel, cutting one tendon at a time. There is almost no blood. They do cut off at the first knuckle. Using a nail guillotine cutter is by far more brutal than it needs to be and than most vets actually perform it.

I think it is not terrible if it is done before 3 months and the cat in question has not started using it's nails. When the little ones wake up, they don't even realize. It's like puppies- when you put a puppy on a wood floor, it's silent. When you put an adult on a wood floor, no matter how short the nails, there is always nail noise. In becoming adults, they become more aware of their bodies and use their nails for everything. Same as a dog would be lost without a tail if you cut it as an adult but if the tail is docked as a puppy, there is no sign of discomfort or lacking as an adult.

The inhumane part, I feel, is when people wait and they feel forced to decide between declawing an adult cat or giving it up. I have seen declawing of a 6 year old cat and that cat went INSANE afterward. He ripped off his bandages and was flipping out so badly, he opened the incisions up and ended up sitting in a pool of blood. That's inhumane. Being in the city and a part of town where people don't have much respect for animals no less, we put cats to sleep for peeing outside their litter box, because the owners were moving, because they were too allergic, so somebody who declaws at 2.5 months is not near the top of the pack as far as animal abuse goes...

Usually the people who declawed were people who had cats before and felt it would be a less stressful environment if they didn't scratch. Personally, (and I know everyone will disagree...) I would rather people declaw a kitten really early than realize later on that they can't manage. If it's an older cat and they feel that it's either declawing or rehoming, I advise rehoming.

Prin
March 19th, 2005, 07:14 PM
By the way, some vets have laser surgery for declawing now. So long 1920's guillotine vets!! I was searching and those pics are the only ones on the net. Maybe when I get a new digital camera, i'll go back to the vet I worked at and take pics of the surgery done properly.

Safyre
March 19th, 2005, 09:28 PM
Thanks for the information, I'm glad tha I have the informstion.
A lot of people have mentioned 'health risks' of declawing, and I must say, that in my family, and clsoe fmaily, no one has ever had a bad reaction to declawing. It has been something that has always been a consideration before getting a new animal, whether can afford to the vet bills, including a front declawing while getting spayed. It was just.. ractise in my family, everyone does it.
I do look at it differently now... but I have some questions, and I'm not meaning to be rude, just trying to get more of an understanding of how you would live with a cat that has full claws.
I'm just wondering what happens in different situations.
If you had a pure bred dog, that you were going to show, you don't want any scars on it. If you had a cat, they very well may cause scars by hitting the dog (playing with the dog), so in that case, what would the suggestion be? Regardless of how short you make the claws, they can still scratch. They also seems a bit sharper, rougher would be a better word, after being cut. Do you guys also file the claws to take away this roughness?
To clarify, my cats have back claws, and no front.
If you had a young child, I mean, YOUNG, baby, they might get scratched, so wouldn't declawing the animal help protect them from this?
I'm just wondering if there is any situations in which declawing would be considered acceptable.

Jackie467
March 19th, 2005, 09:38 PM
My cat has all her claws. I'v never had trouble with her scratching except when it was out of fear, not even furniture. as far as the dog, if the cat is playing it will not use it's claws just as it won't when playing with you, my cat doesn't like the dogs and would only swat if cornored which we never let happen, she has lots of hiding places where the dogs can't antaganize her. and as far as the baby my sister-in-law has a cat with all it's claws with her newborn and two year old child (cat was there when the first was born) and never had a problem. any animal should never be left alone with a baby, the cat doesn't really have too much interest in the newborn and is spoked by the two year old so avoids him. neither have ever been scratched.

Trinitie
March 19th, 2005, 09:41 PM
Having a cat declawed is like having your fingernails removed. Basically it's done by taking the first knuckle and cutting. So, if you look at your hand, you're without a last segment on ALL your fingers. If it becomes a choice of having the cat put down, or having the claws removed, I'd have to agree on taking the claws, but only if it meant death for the cat if they stayed.

If a child is supervised around a cat, there is slim chance of getting clawed by the cat, unless the child grabs the cat in a way the cat finds offensive. I lived with my brother for a while, when my nephew was quite small and still in diapers. He was able to speak and make his feeling clear, and was capable of understanding when something was told to him. He was told, in no uncertain terms, that the cat would hide from him when he didn't want to play. It was my cat, and I was quite adament that the cat keep his claws, even though my brother wanted them gone. The cat scratched my nephew, who in turn came bawling into the living room with a big scratch on his arm. The reason the cat scratched him? He had cornered the cat on the top bunk of his bed, which he could just reach but not climb on. The cat felt threatened and scratched him. He was told to leave the cat, but didn't, therefore he got scratched. Was it the cat's fault? No. Was is the boy's fault? No, not really. He was young and wanted to play. Had they both been in the living room, where we could see them, it might not have happened.
While I know a child and cat can't be supervised at all times, while together, you cannot prevent the inevitable from happening. My brother and I grew up around cats, and none were declawed. We're none the worse for wear and learned how to respect cats and their claws.
Children will burn themselves on stoves, matches, hot liquids. Should we not allow stoves, matches or hot coffee/tea? That would be silly. Tell a child not to touch it, and thirty seconds later, it's touched. That's what a child does. Learn by touch. Let them get a little scratch. It's part of life. (sorry about the long post)

Safyre
March 19th, 2005, 09:51 PM
Trinite - You're not as long winded as LuckyRescue and CyberKitten are .. no worries.

I know that animals and children should never be left alone unsupervised. I don't have any children of my own, I have worked as a nanny, and while at my house, they were watched with my aanimals. Zeppo is wonderful with kids, and she is the type that will alow the kis to pull her fur, pull her tail, use her to help them walk... everything. She is the type that, when kids are scared, I let them meet Zeppo, cuz she is soo sweet. I taught her the word 'baby' when she was younger, using it to tll her to be more gentle, and it seems to work. Thats neither here not there though.

My friend cats that have claws, Justice never cornered them, she went unto her back to play, and they swatted her, with claws, for getting close. In the middle of the room. So that if why I am fearful for if I was to get a purebred for showing. I love having cats, and dogs.

Prin
March 19th, 2005, 09:53 PM
"The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of cats' recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee.

Like I said in my previous post, the only cats I have seen react like this are the ones that are done as adults. The young ones wake up and paw at you to play as if they just woke up from a nap.

twinmommy
March 19th, 2005, 10:06 PM
I believe if a cat is going to scratch with the front paws and you declaw him, he'll scratch more with the back paws. Remove those claws as well and he'll bite more to defend himself, not to mention the character changes that declawing can provoke.

Jackie467
March 19th, 2005, 10:09 PM
I'v never seen or heard of a cat doing this unprovoked. if the cat and dog are both trained it shouldn't happen, it must have been a rare instance with your friends cat, playfully they do not use their claws. If you interduce a cat as a kitten to a dog and vice-verca they should get along great. also many times once the dog is swatted once they won't try it again unless they have a high prey drive in which case there should not be any cats living in the same house as the dog because it may kill them. usually a swat won't cause a scar, though you do have to worry about the dogs eyes, but after once they learn which cats will play and which won't. and declawing a cat will often make them more defensive and they will bite. cat bites are much worst than scratches and can easily become infected.

wjranch
March 19th, 2005, 10:18 PM
I don't have any cats currently (long time ago I had 2 polydactyls that were awesome)
However, I do not agree with the de-clawing of them along with many other posters here. Even if the cat is an indoor pet, there is always the chance it could get out accidently...then what protection would it have to defend itself in the big, bad world? They come equipped with claws as part of their arsenal to defend/protect themselves, I say they should keep 'em. :D
Personal Opinion Only

Safyre
March 19th, 2005, 11:33 PM
The friends cat that scratched Justice was about 2 yrs old, and Justice was about 4-6 months. Justice does not attack cats, she likes to try to paly with them, often offering her toys (still trying to convince her cats cannot throw the ball). Justice was going up to Ed to smell him, and Ed freaked with Justice getting close at all. They were not backed up against a wall or anyting, as I personally know its a bad idea to back up a cat. Anyways, Ed just got mad that the dog went towards him and Ed swatted her, with clows, causing a small wound.
THIS is why I worry about cat claws. I do realize that MOST cats will not attack with claws, and that this very well could be a one time deal *Justice will not approach Ed anymore* BUt the fact that I have seen it happens, gives me another view to see declawing from.

I am personally torn.

Jackie467
March 20th, 2005, 12:30 AM
now don't get defensive but isn't Ed the intact cat from the 4lb pregnant cat thread? He is probably aggressive like that because he is intact. Just a thought.

CyberKitten
March 20th, 2005, 01:36 AM
Oh my!! I just wrote a long treatise only to mistakingly hot a key that lost it all. I guess it was not meant to be and some of you may be cheering :p

I'll be brief, lol (Or TRY)

1. Re: no vet I know uses that "technique"
Unfortunately, some do but the problem is less with the technique than with the procedure itself. Amputation is amputation, however it is done.

have you read this vet tech's observations?
http://declaw.lisaviolet.com/declawvettch.html

2. If you had a pure bred dog, that you were going to show, you don't want any scars on it.
I have a purebred "show quality" cat - I have no plans to show or breed her but that does not mean she should be scarred because I am worried about an inanimate object like my couch. (and she never sractches it).

3. If you had a young child, I mean, YOUNG, baby, they might get scratched, so wouldn't declawing the animal help protect them from this?
This harkens to that "but the cat might suck the breath out of the baby". The scientist in me abhors anecdotal info used as research but as a pediatrician, it would take me no time at all to enumerate the number of times I have seen a baby scratched by a cat. If cats and babies are properly supervised, it never happens. If it occurs frequently to the same baby, I would be bound by law to report the parents for neglect.
With all due respect, this is one of the worst reasons I have heard for decalwing a cat. There are proper ways to introduce a cat and a new baby and if these are followed, the cat will not feel insecure because of the new little one in the home.
I am more concerned with my young patients who are immunocompromised - with leukemia and HIV or aplastic anemia for ex - and a cat scratch. It has occured with fortunately no ill effects. Any other knowledgable pediatrician knows that cat bites are far more dangerous and declawed cats often bite as their only defense. Cat saliva has all manner of bad stuff in it and teaching my young petients to prevent their kitties from "kissing" them or allowing their kitten to bite them in play is a more serious problem.

4.Re: "Like I said in my previous post, the only cats I have seen react like this are the ones that are done as adults. The young ones wake up and paw at you to play as if they just woke up from a nap."

Once again, that may be your experience but anectodal remarks cannot be used as a global reference. That of course also refers to people who cite horror stories. I know those people are aboslutely combvinced their cats were irreparably harmed after a declawing procesdure, just as you are convinced of your own experience. But these are just that - what happened to one person (or one or more) cat(s) at that point.

But the Dr. Gary M. Landsberg - the renowened feline expert whose work the Atlantic Veterinary College referred me to when I called them seeking some sound academic research on the subject - cites some stunning an scary statistics in the workshops and lectures he provides for vets at universities and association meetings and educational CME's. (Or is CVE's for vets?)

I'll just note a few of them:

- Eighty percent of the cats that are surrendered that are declawed are euthanized because they have a behavioral problem….
- A study of 163 cats that underwent onychectomy (declawing), published in the Jul/Aug 1994 Journal of Veterinary Surgery, showed that 50% suffered from immediate postoperative complications such as pain, hemorrhage, and disability; and long-term complications, including prolonged lameness, were found in nearly 20% of the 121 cats who were followed up on in the study.
- In a study published in the January, 2001 JAVMA, 33% of 39 cats that underwent onychectomy developed "at least" one behavior problem immediately after surgery, with the most common problems being litter box problems and biting.
- A recent national survey of shelters from the Caddo Parrish Forgotten Felines and Friends indicates that approximately 70% of cats turned in to shelters for behavioral problems are declawed.
- In his own practice, he enumerated his own data - showing that 95% of calls about declawed cats related to litter box problems, while only 46% of clawed cats had such problems—and most of those were older cats with physical ailments.
- Of his calls, only declawed cats have cost their owners security deposits, leather sofas and floorboards. And it’s declawed cats that are more often prescribed pain killers, anti-depressants, tranquilizers and steroids. Two-thirds of my calls are about litter box problems. In 90% of those cases, the cat is declawed, sick or old.

One vet - at the Atlantic College also asked me (rehtorically) (and he is a malamute "owner")- why don't we declaw dogs- who have ruined more than a few floors, rugs, doors - well you get the picture?

Anyway, nuff said. This will always be an emotional issue for me. I myself was born with an imprefect body (tho through the marvels of medicine survived and thrived with one that looks pretty good - tho I won't count those few pounds I could loose, lol). I spend most of my days trying to help seriously ill children get better and overcome conditons that may lead to amputation or worse! And my vacation time freqently is consumed by my volunteer activities in third world and war torn countries with Medcins sans Frontieres (Doctors without Borders) where we are often in the unenvieable position of trying to save limbs and other mangled body parts torn apart by guns or tsunamis.

So it is with a heavy heart, perplexed ruminations and an inquisitive nature that I wonder why my fellow humans would even consider deliberately mutilating and harming a defenceless and vulnerable little creature whose only transgression is to have been born with claws.

chico2
March 20th, 2005, 09:01 AM
We have debated this issue back and forth several times,thank's for the stats CK.Whatever reason anyone comes up with FOR declawing,it's a lame excuse to design a cat to their liking.
I personally feel sick in the pit of my stommache,just thinking of the procedure.Whether it's done by laser or not,the result is the same :mad:
I've had cats most of my life,babies and even dogs,my cats were never a threat to anyone,claws and all.
Cats are actually not brainless,you can,with a little time and effort teach cats not to scratch....but if they do scratch someone in anger,they probably have a very good reason.Declawing a cat because he scratched a dog,is about the lamest of all excuses,the dog will quickly learn cats come with claws and will be a little more careful the next time,hopefully.
My son has a Jack Russel,she has scratched and destroyed more items than any cat ever could.Should she be declawed :confused:
There is just no debating the issue for me,declawing is cruel,period!!!

badger
March 20th, 2005, 09:15 AM
In answer to your final question, cyberkitten: because they can.

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 10:23 AM
To the person who posted about very YOUNG babies and cats with claws.

I had 6 cats (all claws in tact) when I had my son, I also was fostering 4 more (all claws in tact). My son is now 4 years old and has only been scratched once (when he was 2) for holding one of our cats and not letting him go.
We have always stressed to our son, that the cats are not toys and if he bugs them he will get scratched,and as far as I am concerned it was a good lesson for him(it was a very small scratch), how else would he learn ??

I think alot of people run into problems when they allow their kids to treat their cats like a toy, and allow their kids to man handle and carry these poor cats everywhere, the cat eventually gets fed up.

So the reason kids get scratched in my opinion is all the parents fault!

As far as I am concerned, if you have kids (or are planning to) and are using this as an excuse to declaw, please get your kid a stuffed cat instead!!

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 02:43 PM
CK 0 You only responded to the idea of NOT showing your pure bred animal. Again, what happens if you are showing the animal, scars are not acceptable, what would you do in that situation?

To the people who think that if the baby gets scratch, its the childs fault for doing something wrong. A 6 month old baby doesn't always understand 'leave it' ,yes they should not be left a lone together, but how many of you are able to watch your children every single second of the day? 1 room house then huh?

I was just wondering what the people that are terribly against declawing would do in those situations. I have responses now, thank you.

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 02:51 PM
as I stated before, my son was 6 months at one time (he is now 4) and I have 5 cats with claws in tact, and there has only been one scratch !!

I NEVER allowed my son to treat my cats like toys!!

if a child gets scratched often, ,then it's the parents fault!!! Teach your kids to RESPECT animals, they are NOT toys. If you don't want to teach them that then as I said before. (get your kids a stuffed cat instead)!

Sneaky2006
March 20th, 2005, 02:56 PM
To the people who think that if the baby gets scratch, its the childs fault for doing something wrong. A 6 month old baby doesn't always understand 'leave it' ,yes they should not be left a lone together, but how many of you are able to watch your children every single second of the day? 1 room house then huh?

I was just wondering what the people that are terribly against declawing would do in those situations. I have responses now, thank you.Well I am one of those people. I don't think a 6 month old baby should be left alone, period, with or without a cat in the room. But that is another story.
I have 4 cats, and I babysit a total of 3 kids, 2 of them being 3 yrs old and I've watched them since they were babies. Of course all of my cats have claws... what is there to be concerned about?? You watch baby, you watch cat...? And no, I think my house is more than one room. :rolleyes:
And no, it's not the baby's fault if it gets scratched, it's the parents (or in my case, the babysitters :love: ) fault for not being there.

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 03:09 PM
OK Safyre, lets put it this way .
Are you going to have your dogs teeth pulled if and when you have a child ??

If not, why? It may bite!!

Dogs bite and cats scratch, when you allow children to abuse them!

Cats come with claws and dogs come with teeth, and if you can't handle that then youy should not have them!

I relate declawing a cat with removing a dogs teeth!

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 03:16 PM
Ok... I don't have as much cat experience as most people around here, but I have been clawed by cats working at the vet enough to say that with you around, the cat may be fine but turn your back and there may be a completely different kitty there.

Personally, I find cats unpredictable. I grew up with dogs, and I can tell what a dog is thinking even if it's not mine. I have separated fighting dogs that weren't mine up to three times/day in the summer and I have never been bitten even once as a result (the only time I was bitten was when I was at the kennel and there was a severely abused dog who was just really really wacky and no one warned me he was a biter, but it didn't even leave a mark)... I had a cat in the kennel at the vet for 31 days. We got along great. Every day I would let him out and brush him and play with him and give him cookies... I think it was day 26, I followed the same routine and this guy decided all of a sudden as I was brushing him that he was going to scratch me. HARD. He pierced a vein in my arm and tore a tendon in my hand with his two front paws at the same time. I was not this cat's owner, I was not the person this cat was used to and the cat reacted suddenly, out of context and completely differently than he would have had his owner been there.

Babies just don't have the same relationship to your cat as you do. And it's up to you to protect your baby, no matter what you feel is the best way. :)


(Just so people know and I avoid further misunderstanding-- I told that story to elaborate on why I think cats are unpredictable, not to encourage declawing. If the cat in question had been declawed, I would just have been bitten instead. My experience with cats is extensive only in a VET setting and there, cats that are great at home can be absolutely viscious... For sure when you get to know your cat, you are better able to predict its behavior.)

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Prin I am an experienced cat owner, and have had cats my entire life, And every cat I have had, has been very predictable! I know how to read their body language just as well as you read your dogs body language!

I believe you are right, it is up to me to protect my child, and having my cats declawed would make no difference, if I allowed my son to abuse my cats they would just bite him instead wouldn't they?

Sneaky2006
March 20th, 2005, 03:25 PM
So you think it's okay to declaw because a cat may be unpredictable?

That's just BS! If you're ever worried about a cat scratching anything or anyone, don't get one! It's that simple.

You also can't compare your incident to any other cat. I would never call cats unpredictable, but 26 days is hardly enough time for a cat to become comfortable, especially in a vets office, he was there for a reason, no? This cat was in a cage most of the time, maybe he didn't want to be brushed, was he intact? There's so many factors that aren't even being looked at.

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 03:27 PM
He always liked to be brushed, he was fixed, he was 2 years old and very affectionate.

And no I NEVER said "Declaw your cats because they are unpredictable". Do you see that ANYWHERE in my post? No. I said protect your kids however you see best. Nothing about declawing. Chill.

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 03:31 PM
Maybe thats why so many cats are having to being rehomed

Sneaky2006
March 20th, 2005, 03:33 PM
I'm not stupid, I know you didn't say that in a previous post. But when we're having a discussion about declawing, you say "protect your kids however you see best." That means what if it doesn't mean declaw if you feel necessary?

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 03:35 PM
Read my other posts if you want to know how I feel about declawing. Are you just looking for a fight, or what?

Sneaky2006
March 20th, 2005, 03:40 PM
No thanks, I don't need to research your posts.
I'm not looking for a fight... looks like you're the one who needs to chill!

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 03:47 PM
This is a debate on declawing, and you are speaking with people who have alot of cat experience, so wouldn't we be the ones with most knowledge on this subject?

Declawing a cat is no different then having all your dogs teeth pulled!

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 03:48 PM
when confronted with a choice of declawing or PTS or pound what would the best option be.

Sneaky2006
March 20th, 2005, 03:50 PM
Why would you have to make that choice?

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 03:52 PM
This is a debate on declawing, and you are speaking with people who have alot of cat experience, so wouldn't we be the ones with most knowledge on this subject?

Declawing a cat is no different then having all your dogs teeth pulled!
Is isn't it more like getting the dewclaws removed?

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 03:57 PM
IF you are worried about your precious furniture, or the big bad mean cat attacking you innocent children for NO reason.......DON'T GET A CAT !!!!!

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Sneaky, what I was trying to get across is if you have a cat that is constantly clawing-I know that there are many reasons- and you've come to the point of having to do something about it,dmage-scratching kids-whatever. What would you do?.
Keep the cat or give it away.If you give it away you are just relocating the problem?
To keep the cat you may have to declaw, is that a fair option?
Wait a minute,are there other options and are people always made aware of them.

Sneaky2006
March 20th, 2005, 04:01 PM
Is isn't it more like getting the dewclaws removed?You're missing the point. I think happy means cutting off the tips of a cats toes, which is their defense if faced with danger, is the same as ripping out a dogs teeth, which is theirs.

Dewclaws being removed for medical reasons is way different than declawing a cat, totally unrelated.

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 04:03 PM
Thank you sneaky, that exactly what I meant!!!!

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 04:06 PM
Dewclaws are removed in canines for safety reasons, they are not attached to the bone, not the same as declawing in cats

Sneaky2006
March 20th, 2005, 04:08 PM
Sneaky, what I was trying to get across is if you have a cat that is constantly clawing-I know that there are many reasons- and you've come to the point of having to do something about it,dmage-scratching kids-whatever. What would you do?.
Keep the cat or give it away.If you give it away you are just relocating the problem?
To keep the cat you may have to declaw, is that a fair option?
Wait a minute,are there other options and are people always made aware of them.The new carpet on my stairs is ripped to shreds, the ends of my couch has the wood showing, and one of my cats *tries* to scratch people all the time. You say, what would I do? I am keeping my cat, and his claws. I was ready for it when I adopted him, when I signed the contract that said I would not declaw. I don't have an answer for people who don't love their pets enough to keep them if they destroy something. And if you (not YOU, anyone in general) aren't willing to work with an animal who scratches, then you shouldn't have gotten one. It's what they do.

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 04:14 PM
Thank you Sneaky, thats the response I was looking for.
Everybody has to handle the problem their own way. No more than I should be telling you what to do in your life we have to respect others for their deision based on what is going on in their lives.
Far to many cats ar given up because of 'behaviour 'problems that people don't want to deal with, that doesn't mean they don't love their pets

Shamrock
March 20th, 2005, 04:18 PM
This topic is most certainly a touchy and emotional one. :(
I dont find cats at all unpredictable myself, but the signals may be more subtle. switching tail, etc. A baby or young child is not going to recognize "warning" signs from a cat- or dog. Even adults can miss them.

I have only seen one declawed cat personally.
My neice in Florida, had her roughly- eight-year old cat done when they bought new furniture. I was horrifed :sad: .. but the deed had already been done when she informed me.
They also had a Rottweiller, and the dog and cat had lived together peacefully for all those years.A few months after the cat's surgery, they returned home to find her seriously injured - her stomach was ripped open and she was near death. She was rushed to a vet and saved.. but what caused this? It can only be speculation.. but I believe the cat bit the dog - a new form of retatilating - and the dog bit back.
When visiting their home shortly after this incident, I found I felt very, very sorry for this poor girl still recuperating from these injuries and hiding all the time, fearful.

However this never happened again and she did recover fully. There are now two dogs in the home, she's now about 16 years old and apparently doing very well.
So this unfortunate incident may have just been a fluke.
But - was she the same cat after her surgery?
Not from what I saw.. :(
:ca:

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 04:23 PM
Dewclaws are removed in canines for safety reasons, they are not attached to the bone, not the same as declawing in cats
In quite a few dogs (including mine) the dewclaw is attached to a 1st-metatarsal bone. My dog had the whole bone removed. So I think that in this case, when the bone is present, declawing is very similar to dewclaw removal. And the vets claim it necessary because of the snow, so if you don't have snow in your area, it's purely cosmetic.

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 04:29 PM
P.S. I am totally against declawing any adult for any reason. Like I said in a previous post, if you have to declaw an 8 year old or any cat older than 3-4 months, REHOME. The effects on an adult cat are disastrous. On babies who have not realized that they have nails, the kitty wakes up the same way as when they are fixed- still hallucinating from the drugs but otherwise ok. And if this prevents the owners from declawing later on, so be it.

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 04:32 PM
There are ways to stop your cats from ruining your furniture, without declawing them. a few scratch posts, with catnip on them, ,also you can use a water bottle, to spray the cats when they scratch furniture followed by placing then at the scratch post.
You can also cat proof alot of your house... use pcv vertial blinds instead of fabric curtains, or horizontal blinds, use showerdoors instead of shower curtains (a personal favorite destruction item for my cats) . get laminate flooring instead of carpeting. and build or buy scratch posts.
The thought of putting any of my cats to sleep or dumping them because they ruined my furniture, has never ever crossed my mind. I guess it all depends on how much you truly love your pet.

chico2
March 20th, 2005, 04:57 PM
I too consider myself an experienced cat-owner and in my opinion,if you feel the need to declaw a cat don't get one,as I've said before.
Removing dewclaws on dogs, is hardly the same as mutilating paws,dogs do not walk on their dew-claws,they do not use them for defence,or to climb,or grasp things,there's just no comparison.
Also,yes,I know my cats body-language,I know my cats period...they,like most cats do not like to be carried around and at least my cats are not comfortable around little kids,they are not used to the things little kids would do to them.
If you love and care for your cats,like I certainly do,you'll know if they are unhappy,sick or angry,they are no more unpredictable than any other creature.
Happycats,you are right,I do not have any drapes(don't even like them so it's ok!)I have wooden blinds on most of my windows,leatherfurniture instead of fabric...I looove puppies,but I would say puppies are a whole lot more destructive than a cat,but you know that when you get one,what is so different with a cat??? Declawing should be a banned procedure,just like in Sweden and many other countries around the world,where the animals wellfare comes before drapes or couches!!
I think it's time this thread is closed,it's been debated to death and I for one get very upset about peoples dumb reasonings for mutilating their cats...enough is enough!

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 05:01 PM
If we can't even get puppy mills banned here, it is going to be a lonnnng time before declawing gets banned. Along with ear cropping and debarking.

Shamrock
March 20th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Many years ago, I had a couch that had been shredded to ribbons by my Siamese cat. What an unsightly sight it became :)
Wished I'd taken and saved a photo of it - for the Destruction thread.
But isnt that thread a humorous testament to the damage that both dogs and cats are capable of? :D
My hope is that one day North America will join the vast majority of other areas of the world on this issue, and declawing will be banned worldwide.
:ca:

CyberKitten
March 20th, 2005, 05:36 PM
Oh my!! This is an emotional topic. That does not mean however that we have to be disrespectful and rude - as some of these posts seem to be.

Badger, you are so right and it is still so sad that people find the most ridiculous reasons to mame and permanently disable an animal. Frankly, it really makes me ill to think of anyone making a decision to declaw a cat. I do not understand how anyone could be so cruel. I often have to subject children to painful procedures (and feel like an ogre for doing it but I (and the child's family and her/himself can at least e comforted by the fact that it is for a good medical reason. I am thinking of something like a spinal tap for example or even mylograms. And since some of my colleagues and I are involved in the study of pediatric pain management, we can make it less painful. It irks me to think of a poor little defenceless cat who may not get enough pain meds and then must live with the loss of claws - something a cat NEEDS - for the rest of his/her life.

I try to see the other side of an issue and in this case, the only possibility I can see is the cat's human lacked knowledge about the procdeure. It really is the only comforting thing I can assume.

Sayre, I thought I answered your questions. To be frank, whether a show cat is scarred has little to do with this discussion. I do not know what your point is in forwarding it. Scars are not acceptable but a declawed cat is automatically disqualified so the point is moot. If a cat scratches a dog, that is an individual situation that would need to be examined by both parties - I once worried when my little black cat (a cat I lived with as a child) was chased by a huge black lab across the street. I need not have worried. The lab was scratched on the nose by the cat - who ran up the nearest tree. The lab's owner should have kept him in his yard so he was not able to chase my cat - who was on his own property.

I cite this to point out that cats and dogs have lived together for years. Some get along - and sometimes, there will be a fight and someone will get hurt. C'est la vie in the world of pets. It is hardly a reason to declaw a cat!! If the lab had been a show quality dog - the incident would have been the fault of the owner who was responsible for him. (She did not deliberately let him out of the yard). I would hardly mame a cat for life because he scratched a dog , even a show quality dog. I have a friend who shows her Yorkies and one of them was actually scratched by her cat - they were playing and it somehow got a little rough. She certainly would not declaw her cat over it. The dog is fine and he is just not shown anymore.

I think those advocates of declawing who come up with all these secnarios (the cat might scratch the baby, s/he might scar the dog, yada yada) are in point of fact not giving the cat a chance and assumes a cat is guilty before it even does anything. That is hardly fair. The politician in Ontario who introduced the bill on pitbulls makes the same leap or rush to judgement (to use that infamous legal term, lol). A few pitbulls - the product of bad doggie parenting - have attacked people so his reasoning is that all pitbulls are dangerous and must be banned. Those who think declawing is just fine assume that every cat - regardless of her owner - will at some point scratch someone so we better declaw her. Unfortunately, people who are otherwise care well for their kitty are sold that bill of goods by a vet who thinks it's just fine or by others who seem to think this surgery is not brabaric.

Meg, I am not certain what you mean when you asked "Maybe thats why so many cats are having to being rehomed". It is hard to actually rehome a declawed cat. They have more behaviour problems. So many cats are being rehomed because there are owners who are irresponsible - it has nothing to do with declawing, except of course those people who abandon their declawe cat after it develops behaviour peoblems - like inappropriate urination, biting, etc. Those things can sadly be caused BY declawing.

Re: "when confronted with a choice of declawing or PTS or pound what would the best option be." I cannot imagine why anyone would be in that situation. What cruel twist of fate could come up with that horrible scenario? There are other options - like TRAINING the cat and providing her with a scratching post or more and providing the cat with toys and stimulation so that the couch does not look like a big toy.

Re: "Sneaky, what I was trying to get across is if you have a cat that is constantly clawing-I know that there are many reasons- and you've come to the point of having to do something about it,dmage-scratching kids-whatever. What would you do?." Firstly, a good "owner" would not likely be in that situation since the cat should be trained from the time s/he is a kitten to NOT engage in destructive behaviour. It sometimes cannot be helped if one adopts a mature cat but again, there are many alternatives and ways to change the behaviour. As for sratching the kids, well - we've covered that - that requires teaching of both the cat AND the kids. And with small children - never allowing them to be left alone and unsupervised. And yes, this can be accomplished in a home with more than one room.

What is it all these incredible and so very unlikely scenarios? It is almost like really reaching to find some obscure reason to mame an anaiml and I really do not get why one woudl take the time to think these things up. Yes, children get scratched by cats. They can also be hurt by a dog pulling too hard on a leash or bitten by a dog who did not understand the child's notion of play or was hirt. We do our best to protect children and for the most part, we do a good job. It is all part of life.

I was scratched several times by my bunny and even (shock of shocks, lol) on ocasion by my many cats. They were either scared - a trip to the vet for ex - or in the case of the bunny because he wanted down and I did not read him his coimmunication correctly.

I cannot imagine how you can say Prin that you know what dogs are thinking. I think we have a pretty good idea of what they want (The chocolate lab in my life actually brings me my sneakers and jacket and his leash - no miscommunication there, lol) but unless we are clairvoyant, we cannot read their minds. I can't read my cat's mind but she certainly communicates with me. Even if she were not a Siamese with a relatively large vocabulary which she likes to use, her nonverbal communication speaks volumes - the way a cat holds its tail, the position of its ears, how it is positoned. Cat is actully a pretty easy language to understand.

Perhpas the cat you referred to was scared wat being at the vet and somone may have done something to him before. Perhaps he sensed that you were not a cat person. Cats are extremely predictable if yiu can read and talk "cat" :) They actually hate and are stressed by unpreditability.

Re: "On babies who have not realized that they have nails, the kitty wakes up the same way as when they are fixed- still hallucinating from the drugs but otherwise ok." Kittens know very well they have nails and their mom teaches them how to use them - to scratch in their litter box, among other things - and how to care for them. They are hardly the same way as they were before - how do you account for the high complication rate? (and that cuts across age and breeds. Older kitties may have more complications as theu would in any surgery - and this is major surgery for a cat - but kittens will suffer every bit as much when they are older and a lifetime of having to put so much weight on their hind legs and back leads to arthritis.

AND, if you were informed by your doctor that your cosmetic surgery that someone wanted you to have to please them came with a 50% rate of complications, what would you say or do? Gawd, a 1% rate is too high in medicine. I just do not comprehend anyone accepting this!

Anyway, I am tired and have a headache thinking about this destructive procedure. I know I may never change the minds of people who have already closed it to this issue. The best I can do is hope to God that if one legislature can ban a certain dog breed, perhaps Parliament will ban this cruel and unecessary mutilation.

That's ALL I am saying on this topic. It makes me too angry!

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 06:32 PM
My cats are all declawed already, they have been since they were 6 months old, that was my mothers decision. I am not looking for ADVICE on declawing, What I asked originally was for and explaination as to why some people feel that this is a bad practise. Then, I asked two more questions, so that I could attempt to understand thier argument in regards to a real life siutation.
CyberKitten- The questioni was asking is not about a purebred cat.
If I have a pure bred Toller, who I plan on showing, it cannot have scars, yes? what if I get a cat, that very well may scar the dog. In that case, what is the argument against declawing? Not to get a cat? to choose between two animals that you love?
Just trying to get a feeling of how not declawing your cat works in real life. Again, all of my cats have been declawed

The peopl responding "i have had tons of cats, I know what I am saying"... yes, very good. Many people have had many cats. I have had probably 4 of my own in my adult life, and more as a child. Each and everyone was declawed.

Some people are responding as if the child will never get scratched by the cat, or if they do, it was the parents fault for not watching the child. I'm sorry, but things happen in split seconds, and you can't always be there to stop it.
Anyone who thinks that they awlays have an eye on their child, and nothing happens in split seconds, send me a PM and i'll let ya know my story.

amber416
March 20th, 2005, 06:57 PM
I don't really understand all of these what if's. I can't see how they could even be points of debate. What if the dog gets scratched, what if a baby gets scratched, what about severe cases of destruction or behavioral problems concerning claws. Wouldn't you think about worst case scenarios BEFORE getting a cat. Children, other pets, possessions.... i guess if you're worried your cat will hurt your child or that you won't be able to watch your child all the time and you are planning on ever having children why would you get a cat? I know I thought about anything and everything before getting Tink. There are plenty of pets you can get instead if a cat's claws could ever be an issue for you. It's certainly not the cat's fault it was bought/adopted without being completely thought through, no reason to punish it with cruelty.

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 07:03 PM
What about nail caps? They don't stay on too well, but they're more humane...

Eleni
March 20th, 2005, 07:21 PM
personally I have had my kids around cats their entire lives,

my youngest son is jsut 3 months old right now.

the best way to prevent your child from beign scratched by your pet cat is SUPERVISE the children and the pets interacting together.

My cats have always been gentle with the kids and the kids likewise, but on my insistance that they collectively behave with one another.

claws or no claws pets and kids togetehr always need supervision for the safety of everyone involved.


Eleni

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 07:22 PM
I don't get it safyre ?? You come here asking for opinions, and when they are given you get defensive!

You keep trying to justify why you declaw with "hypothetical" things, We are telling you why not to declaw with "reality", and real life experiences.

No matter what you say, you can never justify to me a "good" reason to declaw.

So if you are worried about your "possible" show dog getting "possibly" scratched and "possibly" leaving scars. You should maybe re-think getting a cat at all!

Maybe a fish would be better suited to your situation.

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 07:28 PM
My dog eats fish.... :)

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 07:30 PM
LOL Prin, I think my cats would to, they would fish them out with their sharp, vicious, killer claws !!

Trinitie
March 20th, 2005, 07:33 PM
It's a simple solution to the "purebred dog with scars" question:
Don't get a cat. A show dog with noticable scars is no good in the show ring. People who show their dogs know this and do not put their dogs in situations that could endanger their prospects in the ring. That doesn't mean that a show dog can't be a pet. I've seen Afghans that run and romp through the woods. Their trainer was with them every step of the way, taking burrs out after they were done. Since a champion show dog can be worth many thousands of dollars in corporate products (commercials and the like) and can contribute to many champion protegy, the likelihood of allowing your dog to get scratched by a cat (when it could scratch an eye and blind the dog, or worse) is a chance any serious prospective champion owner would not take. Do either one, be a cat owner, with a pet dog, or be a champion owner but have no cats in the house. It's just easier in the long run.

Shamrock
March 20th, 2005, 07:49 PM
" What I asked originally was for and explaination as to why some people feel that this is a bad practise."

I feel its a bad practice because:
-Many cats suffer and are traumatized by this surgery, negative changes in personality and behaviour issues CAN result.
Some people report a successful transition, but there is no denying that others really regret this choice.
Is it worth the risk for the animals that you love? Can you know in advance how she/he will adjust over the long haul? Cant put the claws back....

Declawing a kitten ensures a more rapid recovery and ajustement but is a "preventative" measure for problems that might never have even materialized.



If the idea of any scratch mishaps is a scenario you're not willing to take as a parent and /or a show dog owner, definitely better not to have a cat in the home at all than to declaw.

The end will never justify the means to me...
:ca:

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 08:06 PM
ok, so most people think declawing is inhumane. What about if the nails are inappropriately placed? Like polydactyls with nails in the pads (my friend has one like that) or between the toes. What is your position on that?

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 08:21 PM
IF it is for the health of the cat (polydactyls who can't walk or are in pain because of it). But only if it is for the well being of the cat.
I have known MANY polydactyl cats (tons of them in the area where my summer trailer is) and have never known any who have had any trouble with the extra toe?

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 08:24 PM
I'm not getting defensive, I'm trying to get REAL responses to my questions. I am trying to understand how NOT declawing a cat would work in real life. Asking questions attached to real life situations.

Yes, I think the answer of 'the cat will never sratch a baby" is not true, and is an opinion, and yes, I got frustrated over that.

People are responding as if I am trying to start a fight.
At this point, I'm gonna have to ask that you re-read my original post in regards to declawing.
I was asking for someone to explain to me why they felt this way. Then I asked how it works in real life situations, by giving two examples.
At no time have I justified declawing, and btw I DIDN'T DECLAW MY ANIMALS HappyCats. I WAS 12 YEARS OLD WHEN WE GOT MY CATS, MY MOTHER MADE THE DECISIONS AS TO THIS. I have not even provied my own opinion on it, as I'm not clear on my opinion of it yet. And thats why I was asking for others, so I could understand the other side of this. I have lived my entire life with declawed cats, thinking it was normal. The only time i have encountered anyone that felt that this was an inhumane practice was on this website.
In order to educate myself, I have asked questions.
When i ask questions, I get attacked as if I am supporting whatever the question is about (ie, declawing, BARF diet). I am not debating anything, jsut trying to understand how not declawing would work in different situations. Again, living my life with ONLY declawed animals.

The solution of not having a cat if you have a show dog, well, it's a solution, not a very great one. Especially if you love both types of animals. Thank you to those that cared to respond to the REAL reason of these posts. Not to debate, just to answer questions.

Prin - never heard of nail caps... care to explain?

mafiaprincess
March 20th, 2005, 08:35 PM
http://www.softpaws.com/

nail caps

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 08:51 PM
Thanks mafiaprincess ... they look funny, but i suppose they would do the trick as opposed to declawing. people think of crazy things

twinmommy
March 20th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Safyre,

May I ask why you pose a hypothetical question on such an emotional issue?

Declaw questions on cats who are ALREADY declawed.....info on a 4lb pregnant cat that is basically a sitting duck that NO ONE can help.....don't get me wrong, I love a good debate as well, and I really love seeing your pets(ADORABLE btw!!)..but are you just stirring the pot or what?

just curious.

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 09:44 PM
YOU SAID I'm trying to get REAL responses to my questions. I am trying to understand how NOT declawing a cat would work in real life. Asking questions attached to real life situations.

YOU SAID Yes, I think the answer of 'the cat will never sratch a baby" is not true, and is an opinion, and yes, I got frustrated over that.
(SO what, we are lying !!)
this is a REAL life situations. (out of 6 of my own cats and 4 fosters all nails in tact my baby was NEVER scratched. REAL LIFE FACT !!
YOU SAIDThen I asked how it works in real life situations, by giving two examples.
(Which were given by more then one person on more then one response, don't blame us if you don't believe it. )

YOU SAID In order to educate myself, I have asked questions.
jsut trying to understand how not declawing would work in different situations. Again, living my life with ONLY declawed animals.
(Which again we have provided many answers !)


If you were refering to how ED reacts to show dogs and babies.
I can't answer that as I have alway altered my cats.
How unaltered adult males with nails react, you would have to ask someone who has a cat like that..

CyberKitten
March 20th, 2005, 09:49 PM
This discussion is starting to drive me crazy - if I am not already there yet. What if, what if, what if? If you are that worried about a cat scratching a child, don't get a cat! I see so many parents coping with very serious illness and cope with my own health problems that this worrying about a cat scratch is tantamount to an obsession. Either don't get a cat or don't have children if you have cats.

And this argument about a purebred dog- give me a break! You may not think you sound argumentive but this is situation that is so very unlikley to occur in the real life that you want to know about. Most the dog breeders (and they show their dogs) do not have cats and are super careful about their dogs. Mind you, I do not personally know any who have dogs that say go to the show in Westbridge. It's all strictly localand for the love of the breed. And all good breeders stick with one or at the most two breeds of dogs. I know you meant a dog but then I thought maybe you did not realize there were purebred cat shows as well. Yet, now it seems you continue to debate this even though I have tried in good faith to explain my position to you. I have NEVER heard the argument of a show dog being scratched by a cat used before but people do come up with a myriad of obscure reasons to mutilate cats.

How declawing works in real life - what on earth do you think I have been talking about? I do not know about clawing in the abstract - I guess in utopia, it would not happen. It's wy too cruel!

I had a polydactyl - there are various medical procedures tho sometimes it takes plain hard work - as it did with my cat - (I actually had four little polys, handreared when their mama was hit by a car- a stray since I do not breed cats. Clipping nails!

That reminds me of someone I know who told me she declawed her cat because it was cheaper than taking him to a vet or groomer for nail clipping.
In that real world scenario, someone was lazy and her cat suffered for it. (The cat later managed to get outside and was attacked by a dog and ckould not defend itself. It died and her son weas devistated.)

As for Soft Paws, they are a nucience. Cats figure out how to take them off in 20 minutes. People just need to teach their cat not to scratch where they are not supposed to, they need to supervise cats and kids and it all takes work. I hate to think much of this is due to laziness.

I guess I am peeved (I am tired) because I see people fighting for their lives daily and here we are debating "what if" a child is scratched by a cat. My God, that is not the real world. Not mine anyway. In the real world, kids can get scratched by a cat - and it is usually a part of life. Both learn to play nice and it's not the end of the world.

As to why I am against declawing, I think I responded to that. I could write more but I suspect it is useless. I am sorry to sound frustrated but this entire forum has taken on a surreal tone - I do not debate what if when I see so much suffering in front of me in the real world!

I do thin this thread should be closed!!! We do not seem to be accomplishing anything here.

Sneaky2006
March 20th, 2005, 09:49 PM
I really don't understand what you want then saf, we all gave you answers and reasons behind it. What else is there?
Do you want to know answers to these hypothetical questions you have because you want a cat, but not if it will scar your possibly show quality dog??
If you think there's no way around declawing, so your dog doesn't get a scar, then just don't get one. Simple.

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 09:58 PM
Twinmommy - I was asking questions on declawing because I have never heard someone be against declawing. I was not asking 'hey, is this a good idea? oh, wait, haha, its done already. duh" Read, then comprehend what the first question was. Do not ASSUME what I was asking.

To educate myself, I ask questions. At no point did I DEBATE whether or not it was a good idea. Read my posts. Did I say that I am going to declaw all of my future cats?? No, I said that my opinion is not formed on this topic.
The only way to form an opinion, is to get information. To understand other peoples point of view can help you form your own, can make your own point of view more clear.
By no means was I expecting that this would turn into a debate. I have lived my ENTIRE life with declawed cats. I am worried about NOT having my cats declawed and having injuries to humans and other animals. I asked how people dealt with that in thier lives, with clawed animals. And I have gotten responses.
I find it hard to believe that cats never scratch young children, but that it was people are telling me. So, thats the info that I have.

The 4lb cat, I asked for suggestions on how to help her. It is unfortunate that the suggestions I received, were ones I am unable to follow (ie, steal her). All other suggestions (ie, get your friend to take her to the vet, educate your friend on how to take care of animals properly) have been done to the best of my ability. How is asking for help stirring the pot?

Thats right, i was sitting here thinking up ways I can upset people on a website i hadn't even heard of until i was looking for HELP. make sense?
no?
neither do you.

The debate was started by the people VERY against declawing, who seemed to be in dismay that I would even dare ASK why they felt the way they did.

Happycats - Actually, responses to the first situation, (purebred dog) were not provided by anyone till after your last post. Most people were responding to the situation of young children and clawed cats. As you will note, I thanked the people for their responses.

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 09:59 PM
I'm done on this thread. you all can keep arguing back and forth about whether or not its a good idea, bad idea, or what type of person I am.

oh, and I want to see one of you respond to Prin's last question, becasue its a good one.

happycats
March 20th, 2005, 10:08 PM
If you would read, I already responded to Prins question.

The only one arguing is you!
If you don't want an answers to your "hypothetical" questions. DON'T ASK!!!

Sneaky2006
March 20th, 2005, 10:08 PM
oh, and I want to see one of you respond to Prin's last question, becasue its a good one.If you'd actually be reading this thread, you would have saw that happy responded to that question right after Prin asked it.
I have also seen many polydactyl cats in my time and never have come across a problem, it's just an extra toe, with an extra nail. If there ever was a problem with a nail in the wrong place, or any other abnormality, I would have that nail and only that nail removed, just like I would in one of my own cats with a regular amount of toes, if it were medically necessary.

You seem like you're looking for a good reason to declaw, you're not going to find one here and I'm sorry you didn't hear what you wanted.

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 10:19 PM
Sorry, my account on here was acting stupid, kept showing new PM's for me when i read them and there was none, and was not showing all new posts, kept telling me it was an hour ago.
Fixed now.

twinmommy
March 20th, 2005, 10:27 PM
To educate myself, I ask questions


Yes we know.

But do you actually listen to any of the answers? Post after post of good suggestions. I read them quite well, yup, got that reading thing down pat. :rolleyes:

I don't make assumptions, by the way, I was voicing my opinion, something you asked for...DON'T ASSUME that your going to like answers you get.

Tell ya what, why don't you go to the beginning of the rules and regs and just take note of all the sensitive issues you COULD POSSIBLY "WHAT IF" and then come back and "WHAT IF" us all with another one of your brillant troll-a-thon threads?

looking forward to it!!! :thumbs up

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 10:29 PM
ok, maybe not soo fixed, when i go back to page three, where prins last question was, it tells me there is nothing ast that.
anyone know why this is happening?
ANYWAYS,
I'm not going to apologize for trying to understand how someone lives with cats that are not declawed. Because I have never heard of people being soo against it.
You think my questions are stupid? Why? Because I didn't automatically agree 'yep, its inhumane, lets fight ahainst it with every fiber of my being'? Because I find it hard to beleive that cats don' scratch young children? Because my non showing dog has been scarred by a clawed cat?

There was also something that I asked WAY back in another post on this thread about clipping the cats nails. I have found that they become sharper, rougher right after they are cut. Do you guys file your cats nails? ...

I didn't declaw my cats. I was too young to make a decision. But when I find the cat that I am looking for NOW, it will be my decision, and I would like to make an educated one. You all have given me a lot to think about. But I must admit, the fanatics.. you only scare people away, not help.

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 10:31 PM
oh, so i see only CERTAIN members (You, obviously) are allowed to make personal attacks TwinMommy. good to know. good to know.

twinmommy
March 20th, 2005, 10:37 PM
http://www.discodelic.netfirms.com/signs-dontfeedthetrolls.gif

CyberKitten
March 20th, 2005, 10:38 PM
This is my last post on this thread - and this issue has been debated on this forum constantly at one time or another. I think the next time, I will just refer people to the former ones, lol

Re: The debate was started by the people VERY against declawing, who seemed to be in dismay that I would even dare ASK why they felt the way they did.

You were the one who asked the questions - after putting people on the defensive beacuse we have not been welcoming. (I can only speak for myself and I tried to help you with your situation with your friend. You need to take things less personally - this is a Board on the internet for heaven's sake!)

I AM dismayed that you think declawing is OK and I would like to think it is because you did not know the other side of the question. I do not mind you asking about it - what could be wrong with that? Gheez! I guess what has frustrated me is that when I answered you always came back with an example that seemed so out there. I was doing my best and for whatever reason - perhaps unintentional - you seemed upset that I had not explained to your satisfaction. I can only tell you what I know and cite the stats in the hope that might persuade you not to declaw. It's a horrible procedure and brings out strong emotions in animal lovers. Someone recently described as akin to theabortion debate - the two sides are quite apart and emotional about it. I thought you did want a serious debate/discussion but I cannot understand something like a cat scratching a purebred dog. (A cat is more likely to scratch a purebred cat) but as was already stated, the people who show these expensive animals and spend $$$$ on them are going to be supercautious with them. And then you pushed me when I did not respond to it (I thought it was a joke at first to be honest, lol)

Do you actually have a purbred dog that you are worried about? if you do, you need to be less concerned. There are many more concerns than cats in the dog world. ;)

Re: have never heard someone be against declawing. I have to say the opposite. I never heard of declawing until maybe 10 years ago and could not believe anyone would even do that to a pet they loved! When it was first explained to me, I thought it was something someone had done to one cat and they would be prosecuted for cruelty to animals. I was horrified to later learn it was becoming widespread!

I am against it because it is so barbaric, solves nothing for the cat, causes chronic health problems. I am amazed that you never heard the anti declawing discussion before but then again, I had never heard if declawing - it is less popular in the Maritimes than it is in other parts of the country I think.

twinmommy
March 20th, 2005, 10:42 PM
well said as usual Ck and more patient than I..... ;)

Safyre
March 20th, 2005, 10:51 PM
CyberKitten - I read your response to the purebred dog question, and thought you misunderstood my question.
There has actually been only few others that have responded to that.
Again though, I'm not 'what if'ing random things. The fact of the matter is, I plan on breeding dogs, but I love my cats as well. The situaton of a baby getting scratched by a cat, it happens. I mean, kids can be rough with kittens, and while you can teach them to be 'gentle' (thats the word i use with my friends kids), sometimes accidents happen. You have a different perspective on the illness's of kids, becasue of your career, I understand that.
I ust, have seen kids be scared of cats for years... so it was a real situation I was asking about.
I'm not trying to ruffle feathers... if you go back in the psots, there was a time that i said thank you, and stopped replying, jsut read the thread, then I joined again (can't remmeber why)

I have only lived with declawd animals, that doesn't mean I am pro declawing, I just, have never heard of someone keeping thier animals claws. Never heard people calling it inhumane. If i have only ever lived with declawed animals, then I need to understand how to live with clawed animals, which is what I was trying to do.


TwinMommy - Now who is fighting, calling names, and being juvenile? You don't like that I am trying to understand how to live with a cat that has it's claws... how else am i supposed to know how to live with cats that are clawed unless I ask questions?!?!? you tell me that.
And who the heck is the moderator on this thread that is ALLOWING you to attack me?

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 10:53 PM
I'm just wondering because my friend's cat is SUPER polydactyl-- I have never seen a cat like this. She has one on the underside of her paw right in the middle. This cat has toes almost all the way up to her elbows in the front and the back. It's very weird.

amber416
March 20th, 2005, 10:55 PM
The 4lb cat, I asked for suggestions on how to help her. It is unfortunate that the suggestions I received, were ones I am unable to follow (ie, steal her). All other suggestions (ie, get your friend to take her to the vet, educate your friend on how to take care of animals properly) have been done to the best of my ability. How is asking for help stirring the pot?




Okay first of all, you need to stop saying things like that. That is not true and it is at least the second time i have seen you post something to that extent. It was suggested you take the cat to the vet, without your friend, you could have done that, you made excuses. It was also suggested you could report your friend for animal neglect. You could have and should have done that. So, please quit clinging to the whole stealing the cat idea.

For the rest of you, is this the way this forum has always been? I have only been reading the posts for , i don't know, a few months I guess, but I have seen this cycle so many times. Someone posts something controversial, it gets debated, someone gets defensive, it gets heated, then someone complains that the "regulars" are too harsh, not playing nice. I have seen many of the "regulars" post so many helpful things, share so much knowledge and experience...doesn't it get a little tiring for you guys? Anyway, sorry, this is not exactly on topic with the whole, in my opinion, pointless declawing debate, but this is just a frusterating thread.