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To raw feed or not to raw feed? That is the question...

BigDaddySco
March 17th, 2005, 01:40 PM
Hi everyone...I am getting an 8 week old berner tomorrow and have spent the better part of two weeks stressing over what I will feed him. I have been to countless sites (including this one) and have read arguments that support both sides.

I have pretty much decided that I will feed my puppy a homemade diet for the first 12 to 18 months and then switch to a high quality commercial food. However my biggest concern at the moment (which in essences sounds quite trivial) is whether or not to cook the ground meat I will be serving as part of my homemade recipe.

I figured the best way to get an answer to my conundrum was to ask those of you who have a dog (or many dogs).........what do you feed your dog?

MegShawnMom
March 17th, 2005, 01:45 PM
Sounds like you are going to use the BARF diet,very very tough especially with a puppy.You have to get ALL the proper vitamins,protein,minerals need for strong bones and growth.You would have to have a good coach for this and strong disipline, if not try a good puppy food.They will be lots of opinions available for that.Good luck

Lucky Rescue
March 17th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Do not cook meat. If by "ground meat" you mean hamburger, I would not use that as part of the diet. It's handled too much and can have bacteria.

Here is a good site on feeding BARF (Bones and Raw Food)

Raw Diet (http://www.touchmoon.com/dotters/raw/index.shtml)

BoxerRescueMTL
March 17th, 2005, 02:13 PM
That's an awesome site, Lucky!

To answer your question, BigDaddySco, I feed my dogs a raw diet most of the time but also feed Innova Evo kibble sometimes. If you're interested in raw, I really like this yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDogCanada

and this is where I get most of my meat from, the website is actually pretty informative as well. Oh and they deliver!
http://www.poshnosh.ca

BigDaddySco
March 17th, 2005, 02:19 PM
*LuckyRescue*

Why should I not cook the meat?

BoxerRescueMTL
March 17th, 2005, 02:29 PM
i would just like to add that a raw diet is not more difficult with a puppy than with an adult dog. either way you have to have done your research and make sure that your dog is getting enough variety. if he is getting variety, you shouldn't have to worry about tonnes of supplements etc. it's the people who only feed their dogs chicken wings and call it a raw diet that should worry.

BigDaddySco
March 17th, 2005, 02:38 PM
either way you have to have done your research and make sure that your dog is getting enough variety.

What kind of 'variety' do you serve your dog? Do you ever serve canned fish (salmon, tuna, sardines) or eggs?

Trinitie
March 17th, 2005, 02:42 PM
*LuckyRescue*

Why should I not cook the meat?

Meat, fed to dogs, should not be cooked as it takes away vital nutrients. Not to mention, in the BARF diet, bones are included as part of the feed, and cooked bones are harmful to any animal.

I know I'm not LR, but I can provide a little info for you.

I hope this helps!

Trinitie
March 17th, 2005, 02:45 PM
What kind of 'variety' do you serve your dog? Do you ever serve canned fish (salmon, tuna, sardines) or eggs?

Variety should mean:
Beef, Chicken, Lamb, Veggies, Dairy

No pork as it leads to pancrititis (sp?)

I would avoid canned fish as dogs would rather roll in it than eat it. Not to mention it's very high in fat content and can lead to packing on the poundage too quickly.

BoxerRescueMTL
March 17th, 2005, 02:49 PM
My dogs get offal meals (liver, kidneys etc.from different meat sources) 5 times a week, they get a variety of meat/bones like beef, chicken, lamb, turkey, venison and anything else i can get a deal on. i buy bags of whole frozen mackerels and sardines (cheapest at ethnic grocery stores) and that takes care of the fish/omega part of it. they get a veggie meal here and there as well as natural yogurt, fish body oil added to their food.

BoxerRescueMTL
March 17th, 2005, 02:50 PM
and canned fish is not raw..

Trinitie
March 17th, 2005, 03:04 PM
and canned fish is not raw..

A good point! It would sure taste horrible with Mayo if it were!

BoxerRescueMTL
March 17th, 2005, 03:11 PM
A good point! It would sure taste horrible with Mayo if it were!

LOL! Nasty, Trinitie, hahaha.

BigDaddySco
March 17th, 2005, 03:18 PM
In reality I am not really going to be following the BARF diet but more a hybrid which will include (but is not limited to): ground beef, chicken, liver, etc (raw or cooked - undecided), eggs (raw or cooked - undecided), egg shells (powdered), fish (fresh or canned - undecided), ground flax seed, pureed veggies, yogurt, and a supplement powder supplied by my breeder (contents undetermined - i will ask tomorrow).

This is a diet that has been suggested by my breeder and my question is more oriented on the 'undecided' factors - meat (raw or not), eggs (raw or not), fish (fresh or canned). My breeder has said that they cook their meat but that I could just as well use raw...... i want the opinions of others before i make my decision.

BoxerRescueMTL
March 17th, 2005, 03:32 PM
cool, in that case i would go for anything as raw and as fresh as possible. cooking kills the vitamins/nutrients, and fresh is certainly better than canned, right?

Prin
March 17th, 2005, 04:06 PM
I thought about giving the raw diet but doing the math, it was way too expensive. Following raw diet recommendations I was going to have to feed a total of 1.7kg of meat/day for my two big doggies. KA-CHING!!!

luvmybeagles
March 17th, 2005, 06:29 PM
I am very confused. Perhaps I'm just naive. :confused:

I've never heard of anyone deliberately feeding their pets raw meat before. Is that even safe?

I have over 20 years of restaurant experience under my belt, and have had several courses in food safety. They emphasize over and over and over again the dangers of serving under-cooked meats or eggs to people. Isn't it just as dangerous to feed under-cooked (or raw!) foods to our pets?

Eggs may contain salmonella amongst other things. Even the exterior of the shells can be contaminated if they weren't washed well. (From the chickens feces coming in contact with the egg after laying).

Beef can contain various types of staph bacterium as well as E.coli. Pork can actually contain a parasite (trichinosis) that will live in the host animal and can kill if left untreated.

I'm not sure what if anything lamb carries.

But the potential for food bourne illness (food poisoning) is extremly high if these foods are not cooked to the proper temperature to kill the living bacteria within the foods.

So I wonder why it's safe to feed these foods uncooked to our pets when it isn't safe for people. Do animals have a higher tolerance for these bacterium than people do? I know dogs can get food poisoning, I had one get it once.

(But I also know that wolves in the wild eat raw stuff all the time and they do fine).

Safyre
March 17th, 2005, 08:03 PM
I feed my dog commercial dog food.
My vet recommends agsint the BARF diet, and I will admit, it was not something I ever even considered doing.
The experience I have had with the BARF diet is as follows;
I have a purebred dog, and have met many breeders, and thier dogs, of this type (Toller). All the dogs are palyful, hyper, great lil family dogs.
The breeder that I havem et who feeds the BARF diet, thier dogs are more aggressive, standoffish, and typically do not do well around other animals. Even though they are the same breed.
I cannot prove that the BARF diet is doing that to the dogs, it may be that they are handling thier dogs differently. But, thats my experience. Food for thought

MegShawnMom
March 17th, 2005, 09:15 PM
I was trying to point out that with a puppy and the constant weight change you would have to recalcualate the %portions of each food group.Even using carrots you would have to be very precise on the amount.Yes, you would be foolish to use only raw chicken wings,again its not the item but the weight/portions to ensure a proper balance.Commercial dog food meets all those requirements.
The dogs stomach can hand the raw meat better than we can,I would always freeze the meats and feed them frozen to ensure killing any bacteria.
Overall I would not go back to BARF unless it became a health/allergy/reaction problem to commerical food

BoxerRescueMTL
March 17th, 2005, 09:23 PM
Here's some reading material. I don't want to turn this into a "raw" debate, but if you'd like to educate yourselves on this topic, check out these sites:

http://raw-dogs.com/ -this site is by one Pets.ca member, Carina, who actually wrote a book on raw feeding.

http://www.rawlearning.com -a great site to answer all your basic questions.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com

I'm not saying everyone should feed raw or anything like that. Everyone should stick to what they are happy with and what is best for their own dogs. Thousands of people feed their dogs a raw, natural diet. I have a vet who totally agrees with the raw diet and my own dogs are the picture of health-in body and mind. There is absolutely zero evidence that a raw diet makes dogs "aggressive" "standoffish" etc. and to assume that is what is making them that way is really short sighted. JMHO.

LavenderRott
March 17th, 2005, 09:40 PM
I feed my dog commercial dog food.
My vet recommends agsint the BARF diet, and I will admit, it was not something I ever even considered doing.
The experience I have had with the BARF diet is as follows;
I have a purebred dog, and have met many breeders, and thier dogs, of this type (Toller). All the dogs are palyful, hyper, great lil family dogs.
The breeder that I havem et who feeds the BARF diet, thier dogs are more aggressive, standoffish, and typically do not do well around other animals. Even though they are the same breed.
I cannot prove that the BARF diet is doing that to the dogs, it may be that they are handling thier dogs differently. But, thats my experience. Food for thought

Most vets have about a semester of nutritional training in vet school. I am sure that if I asked my vet what to feed my dogs - he would recommend the dog food that he sells in his waiting room. Not something that I would ever bring into my house.

I fed my girls raw for over a year before I had to switch back to kibble for reasons I won't go into. I promise you, it had nothing to do with the health or behavior of my dogs. My senior girl lost the weight she needed to lose to get back to a healthy weight, she had much more energy, her coat looked better and her joints were not so painful in the winter.

Feeding raw does not cause your dog to be aggressive. If the aforementioned breeder kenneled his/her dogs without as much human interaction that the family house dog would have - THIS would cause the dogs to be stand-offish and even aggressive. Not the diet they were on.

Natasa
March 18th, 2005, 09:08 AM
Both my dogs are on raw and I’m in the process of trying to switch Monster the ferret on raw. So far its not working that great so I might just give up on her.
I’ve been feeding raw for 5 years now, both my dogs were on it since 2-3 months old and there is no way I would ever feed commercial food again. My animals get pretty much everything except pork (one of them can’t digest it and vomits)….chicken, turkey, beef, lamb, venison, buffalo, tripe and any other meat / offal I can get my hands on (bone included). Same goes with fruit and veggie, with few exceptions which can be toxic to them. Also egg, yogurt, cottage cheese etc sometimes. Variety is important.

If you are thinking of feeding raw, please do not cook meat or veggies. It defeats the whole purpose of raw (NOT cooked) as many enzymes and vitamins are destroyed and protein greatly altered in the cooking process. Not to mention that cooked bones are dangerous for dogs and growing puppy needs calcium.
Feeding raw meat will not cause them to be aggressive or in any way alter their temperament.
Vets have very little knowledge on nutrition, unless they choose to educate themselves beyond what they learned in school (very little) or what company reps tell them.

Lucky Rescue
March 18th, 2005, 09:19 AM
My vet recommends agsint the BARF diet

I'm not surprised. His shelves are probably loaded with Eukanuba and Science Diet, no? ;)

Dogs have been eating raw food since they first appeared on the planet, and it seems to have worked for them. It still works for all the wild canids of the world. While they are not as purely carnivorous as cats, but are still on the carnivorous side of omnivorous.

Eating raw food makes a dog stand-offish? What is the connection here? How would it do that?

As Sandi says, it's more likely improper handling or bad breeding would make dogs aggressive.

raingirl
March 18th, 2005, 09:23 AM
luvmybeagles, dogs stomachs are made to digest raw food, so they don't have the same problems with food poisoning. They don't get ill from salmonella, or ecoli etc.

Prin
March 18th, 2005, 02:04 PM
YES dogs CAN get salmonella and E coli. E coli can be fatal in dogs with an underlying virus or to puppies. Salmonella causes almost an identical reaction in dogs as in humans. The thing people don't realize is that not ALL chicken and beef is infected with these two harmful bacteria. I think the last stats in Canada say about 1/3 of the poultry here has salmonella and even less for eggs. So chances are, if your dog doesn't get salmonella at least once, it's luck. Animals in the wild don't have the traditional bacteria, but they have their own. Yes wolves eat raw meat, but so did humans. The difference is that wolves don't have a choice to cook it or not and they also don't know the science behind cooking. You don't know how many wolves have severe diarrhea RIGHT NOW as a result of eating some sort of infected raw meat. Just because they eat raw diets in the wild doesn't mean they CHOSE it over something else. They just eat to survive and eat what they find. They evolved as carnivores and what they find happens to be raw. I wouldn't see a wolf pass up a steak that has been cooked if he happens to pass one.

Yes there are more nutrients in raw, but it is not all safe. And I seriously don't believe that dogs are less sensitive immune-wise than humans. Yes your dog can eat some unmentionable stuff off the sidewalk but he does get sick from it. And I don't know about you all but my dogs CERTAINLY throw up way more often than I do and get sick way more often than I do. They are also around less conspecifics. I see how many people every day and how many dogs do my dogs see? Maybe they are not sick simply because they are not exposed to enough bacteria and viral pathogens, not because they are stronger.

I feed my dogs the best food I can afford. And yes, there may be some protein in it that got killed by the cooking, that is why some of the better foods are cooked at lower temperatures and why they make Sea Weed Meal to go with your food.

Honestly, and I know I may offend people, but I feel that raw is a fad (like vegetarianism was about 3 years ago- not to say that there aren't real veggies out there-but it was cool for a while and people did it unprepared and for the wrong reasons). The problem is, when raw dogs get diarrhea, what are the odds that the human will say, "It must be the food"? Chances are he'll say "I've been feeding him this food for so long, without any troubles, it must be something else", even if there is a ton of day to day variation in different meats.

That's all I have for now. I hope I didn't offend anybody, but sometimes it is easier for people to prove a point by leaving the science out, and that's where I come in...

Lucky Rescue
March 18th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Processed dog food - canned or dry - is a very recent invention which appeared around WW1 (not sure exactly when). Until it came about dogs ate whatever was available. Dogs are opportunistic feeders, carnivores and scavengers who will eat anything that is edible. They are constructed to run down, overpower, kill and eat other animals. Their powerful jaws, speed, endurance, and sharp teeth did not evolve for them to feed on kibble.

Since they are scavengers, no - a wolf wouldn't turn away from a cooked steak, but also wouldn't turn away from a cheese sandwich. Doesn't mean cheese sandwiches are a good diet for dog or wolf.:p

For dogs to eat raw food can hardly be considered a "fad" since they have been doing it since the dawn of the dog.

ALL wild cats eat meat only (nothing else) and they were doing very well on this diet until humans decided to exterminate them.

Yes dogs can get sick from eating bad meat, but I'm sure way more of them having all kinds of problems from eating cheap kibble like Purina - a very popular food thanks to misleading media blitz put out by the company.

All that being said, I don't feed raw, basically because I'm too damn lazy! :D

heeler's rock!
March 18th, 2005, 02:39 PM
I feed my border Mountain Dog Food, which is a pre-packaged raw food. It comes in either Chicken, Beef, or Turkey varienties and it is THE BEST thing I have ever done for her. It comes complete with veggies and fruits, and the bone in. I add a few vitamins and such, but not all the time and she's been doing just great. Dogs are succeptable to E.Coli and salmonella, but rarely get it because their digestive tracts are waaaaaaaaaay shorter than people's, so they don;t take as long to digest raw food, thus having less of a chance to get these things. The only times I've heard of dogs getting e.coli or salmonella from raw is when it's mixed with kibble. Kibble takes a lot longer for dogs to digest, therefore trapping the raw food in with it. That's why most people advocating raw tell you to fast your dog for a minimum of 12 hours before switching.

As for raw causing agression, complete hogwash. My in-law's malamute has been on kibble his whole life, and he is prone to killing small animals, and he is very inter dog agressive. My border collie is the sweetest and most gentle dog with all living things. It depends how a dog is first bred, and mals generally have strong prey drives that is bred into them. Border collies are not bred to be as agressive with animals.

jjgeonerd
March 18th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Something else to consider about the BARF diets is that all of that meat is at some point handled and processed. By it's nature this handling increases the risk of contamination by some sort of disease, be it E.Coli, Salmonella, whatever. BTW, ground beef is probably at the highest risk for contamination.

Wild animals eat meat that hasn't been processed, preferrably just killed. I know...wild dogs and wolves eat whatever they find...yes, and a lot of them are malnourished and disease ridden. They eat what is available.

I'm not saying a person should or shouldn't do BARF. I'm personally not comfortable with it, but that's just my choice (and I'm lazy like Lucky :rolleyes: ). I'm just mentioning this as something to be considered when weighing the options. Just because it's human grade doesn't mean it is disease free. I have personally had salmonella, and it wasn't any fun! :yuck:

Safyre
March 18th, 2005, 04:03 PM
I didn't say that the BARF diet was the reason that the dogs were very different from the other breeders I have found, i said it is a possibility.
Think about it this way: You are advised not to feed a snake live food, because it helps build the prey drive. Would that not then be the same idea in dogs? Feeding them raw meet MAY make them more aggressive?

Again, I never even considered feeding my dog a BARF diet. This is the first dog I have ever had, and took the breeders suggestions on what to feed the dog.

I asked my Vet when I was in there what a BARF diet was, becasue I didn't know. He then explained it to me, but he stated that he will support anyone that chooses to do it, but doesn't see that it is that much better than the commercial foods. I don't buy any foods from my vets office, I had talked to him about foods before getting Justice, and told him which brand I would be getting her. I have it sent down from another city.
I asked tons of questions of everyone. No one had told me about the BARF diet, untill i was looking up other Toller breeders online, and found one near me saying that they fed the BARF diet and do not let sell thier pups to anyone unless they argree to feed BARf. Thats what got me looking into it.

I don't know if thats what makes thier dogs have undesirable characteristics.. as I said, it could be apart of it. I was just sharing my experience, which is really all you can do.

jjgeonerd
March 18th, 2005, 04:17 PM
I didn't say that the BARF diet was the reason that the dogs were very different from the other breeders I have found, i said it is a possibility.
Think about it this way: You are advised not to feed a snake live food, because it helps build the prey drive. Would that not then be the same idea in dogs? Feeding them raw meet MAY make them more aggressive?

I would think the difference is raw vs. live. The BARF diet doesn't require the dog to hunt and kill its meal, its just raw; whereas the snake has to hunt and kill its dinner, thus developing the prey drive.

heeler's rock!
March 18th, 2005, 04:24 PM
Think about it this way: You are advised not to feed a snake live food, because it helps build the prey drive. Would that not then be the same idea in dogs? Feeding them raw meet MAY make them more aggressive?

Snakes and dogs are two very different animals. I don't own snakes, so I don't know if that's true or not, but for dogs it is a completely unfounded notion. I had a lady call me and ask me about dog boarding as I do that sometimes. She asked about bringing their food and I said yes because at that time all 3 of my dogs were on BARF and I wouldn't let a stanger's dog eat that if they're not used to it. Also, it's quite controversial. She started going on and on how someone told her that when a dog eats raw food, they become agressive because they've now tasted blood. I laughed!! That is totally a mis-informed opinion, started probably by some urban legend. It's like people justifying putting a dog down because it's tasted blood and now it becomes some sort of evil creature or something. I can understand people not wanting to feed raw based on lack of time, but don't dismiss it completely because of a silly rumor that's completely untrue. I've never heard of a dog becoming more agressive or less agressive based on a raw diet.

Our border collie protects our 3 cats and our rabbits and loves playing with them. Since starting raw, she's never even attempted to hunt them down and kill them based on the fact that she's tasted blood. That's just sooooo funny to me!! :p

mastifflover
March 18th, 2005, 05:24 PM
http://www.droolingdog.com
This is a great site about raw diet and raw means not cooked that is the whole point of it. Cooking it takes out all the nutrients that the dogs need. I would feed raw but my job allowed it but I work very erratic hours and you do need to be consistent. I have a friend who had switched her Bullmastiff about 8 months ago and the difference in Jasper is unbelievable she is no longer getting UTI's she was very prone to them. She has more energy and has lost weight I have not seen any negative effects from the foods only improvements.

Lucky Rescue
March 18th, 2005, 05:36 PM
You are advised not to feed a snake live food, because it helps build the prey drive. Would that not then be the same idea in dogs? Feeding them raw meet MAY make them more aggressive?

ALL predators - from shrews to Siberian tigers AND snakes - have prey drive. If they had none they would starve to death, no? :p

Predators, like our dogs and cats, are born with prey drive. They may not be good at hunting if they didn't have parents to teach them, but the drive is still there.

Prey drive is NOT aggression. A wild dog chasing down an antelope is not being aggressive. It's merely getting dinner in the only way it can. You go to the supermarket to buy it, they must catch it.

Truly aggressive dogs aren't aggressive because they see you as a meal. They are aggressive for other reasons.

The notion that feeding raw food to a dog makes it aggressive is a laughable myth, and an old wive's tale.

What exactly would be the connection between a dog eating raw meat and being human aggressive? One has nothing at all to do with the other.

Prin
March 18th, 2005, 05:43 PM
I agree with that. If a dog has a strong prey drive, it will be there regardless of the food. Or whether or not that food is raw.

Our dog rolled on a cooked piece of deer on the kitchen floor. Raw has nothing to do really with the predator reaction.

We used to give our old dobie a bit of raw meat when he was around and my cousin bit him on the a** when he was two years old and my doggy didn't do anything. If he had gotten a taste for blood, there is no juicier source than a plumb 2 year old... ;)

mafiaprincess
March 18th, 2005, 05:44 PM
My aunt had a dalmation (which in later years I think was partly great dane) that was fed cooked ground beef, veggies and rice its entire life. I think that a lot of that dog's health problems had to do with diet, but yet again, the vet told her it was the healthiest thing she could do for her dog, and she trusted her opinion even though other people in our family suggested some of the health issues seemed food related.

My pup goes wild over raw meat. She could care less if I play with kibble, but if I am cutting up beef, or venison or anything she whimpers and paws, and is desperate for the meat. Out of anything I feed for treats, raw meat is the greatest of all for her.

Safyre
March 18th, 2005, 06:06 PM
The situation that I am aware of, with the dogs being more aggressive, is that they ar more aggressive with other animals, not just humans.
And again, I did not say that this was definately, no questions asked, the reason that the dogs from this breeder have different characteristics, just thought it might be a possibility.
Obviously, some people on this site have very strong opinions, and that can put people off.

I don't feed raw, because I think it's completely digusting, as I don't eat meat myself.
Oh and LuckyRescue - you completely took that wrong, and i don't know if you were being a smartalec, or really did just take it wrong. I was NOT saying that if you feed dead mice to the snakes that they will have no prey drive, i said that feeding live mice helps to BUILD thier prey drive. Obviously they already have a prey drive, otherwise they would ignore the squeaky lil thing.

Lucky Rescue
March 18th, 2005, 06:16 PM
i don't know if you were being a smartalec, or really did just take it wrong. I was NOT saying that if you feed dead mice to the snakes that they will have no prey drive, i said that feeding live mice helps to BUILD thier prey drive

I am in no way trying to be a "smartalec". I was just trying to inject a bit of humour and obviously didn't do it well. :o

Snakes emerge from their eggs or from the birth canal fully equipped with completely developed prey drive, since they are on their own immediately. It is deeply ingrained and nothing can "build it" or take it away.

This is not my opinion, but fact.

Safyre
March 18th, 2005, 06:18 PM
I cannot prove that the BARF diet is doing that to the dogs, it may be that they are handling thier dogs differently. But, thats my experience. Food for thought Just wanted to go back to the beginning and remind you all what I originally said.
I admitted that they may handle thier dogs differently, and this could be the cause of the difference in personality.
I admitted to not knowing what caused it, but I know that they feed BARf and did not know if that could have caused the difference.
Thanks for taking my head off.

Safyre
March 18th, 2005, 06:20 PM
Care to state the literature that your fact comes from, LR?

Safyre
March 18th, 2005, 06:27 PM
When John (bestfriend) got his snake, we did tons of research, and there were quite afew sties that advised against feeding live food, as it builds the prey drive, they are more likely to strike out, things of that nature.
Looking online now, 2 yrs later, all I can find for not feeding live is that the mouse might hurt the snake.
I apologize, there is false information everywhere.

Natasa
March 18th, 2005, 06:38 PM
Whether you feed live or pre killed, snakes still go though the motion of grabbing and squeezing their pray as if it was alive.
I’ve never heard anyone advise against live feeding a snake because it makes them have stronger pray drive, but it could be true I suppose. When that advice is given its mostly because a snake can get injured by a mouse or a rat in a cage. It happened many times that a not so hungry snake was attacked and chewed up pretty bad by a scared rodent. Other reason is that is unbelievably cruel to leave a live animal in a small enclosure to suffer for (sometimes) hours.

Or look at it this way…..snakes are eating raw food whether they catch them live or they eat them pre killed. Dogs eat pre killed, cut up, raw meat. Its not like my dogs see a chicken and think “oh this is what I had for dinner last night”. They do not hunt their dinner, its given to them in a bowl just like any other food.

heeler's rock!
March 18th, 2005, 07:11 PM
Safyre, I know you never said that you were 100% sure that it was the BARF diet making those dogs seem more agressive, but implying that can seriously hurt the BARF diet's reputation as being a great way to feed your dog to someone who has never heard of it before.

No one is trying to take your head off, it's just that mis-information can cause reactions like yours, or Michael Bryant's with BSL. I'm just trying to set the record straight about raw food. I do agree that there are very good brands of kibble on the market. We feed our heelers Innova Evo which is raw food in kibble form. There are no grains and the kibble is held together with potatoes. That is the only food on the market that can actually be combined with a raw diet as it digests just as quickly.

Sorry if you felt attacked as that was not the intention. I just need to set records straight when people are implying things that I know to be untrue. No hard feelings I hope. :grouphug:

Prin
March 18th, 2005, 07:23 PM
It's hard to sift through all the mis-information and opinions and I doubt that Safyre's misunderstood post will affect anyone's decision. I would hope that anybody considering this would do more than just check a doggy forum, no matter how useful it may be.

There are a ton of websites about doggy stuff out there that are very convincing but are not based on any research. And sometimes it is hard to explain to people that information they are very keen on and have already accepted is not factual. (I have a very artistic vegan brother and he presented me with a stack of scientific papers validating veganism-- only they were all from the same author...).

I think people come here for opinions rather than fact, at least they should.... Nobody's credentials are posted (except the Pet Drs...) and it is hard to know everybody's background here.

Like they say, decisions are usually 10% based of factual reasoning and 90% based on emotion...

heeler's rock!
March 18th, 2005, 07:32 PM
It's hard to sift through all the mis-information and opinions and I doubt that Safyre's misunderstood post will affect anyone's decision. I would hope that anybody considering this would do more than just check a doggy forum, no matter how useful it may be.

Unfortunately, that's how society is. Look at BSL. There were no facts supporting it, yet the majority of people in Ontario belived the BS that was spilled out of Bryant's mouth, and in the media. I'm not saying that one person's mis-information is going to change a whole lot, but I'm hearing more and more people say raw food can lead to a whole lot of untrue things. That's all I'm saying. Again, sorry for making anyone feel picked on or whatever else. I don't want this thread to get off topic, so I'm sorry for making it do that for a bit. :o

Safyre
March 18th, 2005, 08:43 PM
I want to respond, but not quite sure what to say. From what I have seen people on this website have VERY strong opinions, and don't seem to take well to questions, or different views.
I was only offering the experience I have had with dogs on the BARF diet, and thats what the OP asked for. I started very clearly that it might be the way they handle the dogs that is laos different and caused the changes.... I'm sorry if you feel that I should not have relayed my experience to the person.

I'll keep quiet now.

heeler's rock!
March 19th, 2005, 10:00 AM
I'm sorry if you feel that I should not have relayed my experience to the person.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, and you are entitled to yours. My concern is that conceptions like yours are becoming more wide spread and I'm trying to correct any misconceptions. I've apologized, and if that's not enough, oh well. Take what I said however you would like......

Prin
March 19th, 2005, 11:56 AM
Has anything been scientifically proven here? Can we get some facts? Safyre is very entitled to her opinions and she is just explaining what she SAW. Nobody has a right to tell her what she saw or didn't see, or that she is wrong for posting it. If you want to be picky, referring people only to pro-raw sites is just as biased and misinforming. If you want people to make their own judgement, you have to provide them will ALL the info, not just the info from one side.

It's becoming the same style of argument that people have when talking about GMO. It's so rare that someone will present both sides and say, "here, you decide for yourself".

After budget considerations, and research on dog foods, I have decided to feed my dogs solid gold wolf king. That's my decision on the matter, and I hope that my opinion and misconception that dogs do great on dry dog food doesn't become any more wide-spread than it already is.

heeler's rock!
March 19th, 2005, 12:37 PM
Okay, for the last time, I am just trying to CLEAR UP misconceptions that raw food makes dogs more prone to kill other animals. THAT'S ALL. There is no proof that I've seen backing up or dismissing that claim, except for the dozens of people who's dogs I know are on raw food and have never shown prey drive to any animals before or after the feeding. I can't run scientific tests in my basement, or else I would. :rolleyes:

I also know that there are AMAZING brands of kibble on the market, but I feed my BC raw because she doesn't digest kibble well and gets sick frequently, no matter what we try. As I stated before, my heeler's are on kibble, and I have no problems with that.

If this is where the thread is going, then maybe it should be closed because now I'm feeling picked on and ridiculed for MY opinions. Kind of hypocritical, don't ya think? I apologized for coming off harsh, and my posts weren't just directed to any one person, they were directed to anyone with the same misconceptions so that they may look at the facts on raw before completely dismissing it because they think their dog will turn into Cujo! I'm done with this thread. I've been gone from this board for a long time, and I didn't come back for this. Say what you want, but I will offer no more responses or help to anyone seeking it on this thread. :mad:

poodlewoman
March 20th, 2005, 08:38 AM
Hi Im new here and Ive got to jump in on this discussion. Ive been a raw feeder for 12 yrs now and have certainly never had any animals dying of salmonella or having their sytems riped by shards of bone or impactions . Ive fed 4 dogs this way with 3 of those being raised since 8 wks on raw plus muliple cats . All I have is healthy animals with clean teeth and skin .
I didnt make the decision to raw feed because someone said thats what they do or from reading ONE book etc... I had heard and read about it from several different sources and made an educated decision for myself because IT MADE SCENSE TO FEED THIS WAY ! I have changed things along the way( I used to feed cooked grains which I no longer do-I used to feed veggies with almost every meal now it is 2-3 X a week) but I still feed raw and certainly not because it convienient but because its what I know in my heart is the way nature intened for them to eat. We may have changed the outside but we havent changed the inside.
Cilla and the gang

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 12:13 PM
I'am going to hold my nose and jump right in. It was suggested to me that I only talk about what I know.
I had 2 b.c. with epilepsy,regular and specially foods didn't work. I was introduced to BARF,did major research and it seemed to be the answer. It was hard,demanding and at times frustrating. I has a seperated kitchen LOL
for their meals,each food group-especially veggies were measured to the gram,balanced so there were no duplications, suppliments.Raw meat was varied,again had to be chemical free-special trips to the organic farms.We were fortunate our freed was a freegraze farmer and we had an excellent source.We had to constantly revise our original package. It took over 3 months to get it close to what it should be. With our vet and all the test to make sure the intake was right we got it right.Our vet was not a fan of BARF,but then she didn't know much about epilepsy either but we learned together and now she is a real 'trooper'. Both our babies died 3 years ago,not because of the diet but because of the disease.The BARF helped give them extra time to be with us, healthier,less gargabe in their system.
It's a lot easier today,you can buy the prepackaged 'meals' in most stores,or go online to see who has them.Problem is like any supplier,you have the good ones that do measure-not just a few carrots here-measured to the gram and properly balanced.Take the time and money and go to a holistic vet and get it right the first time, this will save you time and money and a happier dog.

Yes, ALL animals have prey drive,kibbles or raw,at some point they will chase-ask the squirrels-and possible kill/eat.
The only thought I have-DON'T BEAT ME UP FOR THIS-is, if the intake of vitamines/mineral/essientals are not properly balanced they may be a chemical imbalance that may trigger a negative response.In this case an internal need to replace what is missing,ie: protein.Does that make sense.

bluntman
March 20th, 2005, 01:50 PM
Facts, are facts and myths are myths, I never in a million years thought I would ever feed a raw diet to a dog of mine, I was cought up in all the myths, just like BSL suporters. I assumed if you feed a dog raw meat, it would turn into a blood thirsty killer, this is a myth. But like so many of us, I was afraid of what I did not understand. I did a lot of research into raw, and found a place in town that has pre- packaged raw food for dogs and cats. Zena has never liked comercial dog food wet or dry, and I have tried them all, I was at my wits end untill I heard of raw, but the thought of feeding raw was appauling to me. I relized this was something I had to overcome, dog's have been living on raw for thousands of years.
Zena has been on raw for over 2 months now, and the differance is amazeing.
She eats every day now, not every other day, she is gaining weight, her coat is softer, and she did not turn into a blood thirsty killer, she is still the happyest most freindly dog I could ask for. Raw may not be for everyone, but it is an option if you dog is not doing well with kibble. Sable on the other hand is doing fine on holistic dry food, so I have no plans on a raw diet for her, But thanks to raw, I no longer have to watch Zena slowly starve herself, becuse she cannot stand processed dog food. I'm now a firm beleiver in raw, and a much happier, more informed dog owner.
http://www.healthy-paws.ca/index.htm

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Good to hear that BARF is working for you. Please have blood test done on a regular basic to make sure that all the internals are getting what they need.
I ,unfortunaltely for a while was 'taken' by a supplier that didn't put everthing that a dog needs in the packageand it caused more problems at the beginning till we got everything 'worked out'
.Don't forget the chicken wings.
BARF/commercial, it up to you,just make sure you have as many facts as possible

bluntman
March 20th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Thanks MegShawnMom, I will do that, I'm rotateing her on turkey, beef, chicken, to make sure she gets what she needs, as well as a bit of yogurt. I'm still new to this whole BARF thing and still learnig, what do mean about chicken wings? Is this something else I should be feeding her ocasionally? I'm not sure I would trust her to chew the bones poperly.

Natasa
March 20th, 2005, 06:42 PM
They do need bones in their diet. I would suggest starting with chicken wing or neck bones as they are softer. Of course, make sure you are watching her especially in the beginning to make sure she is not swallowing big pieces. Mine get everything (bone included) and have no problems. They finish lamb necks with no problems. You can also feed any other meat (lamb, venison, buffalo, rabbit, etc) for variety. I also try to give my dogs green tripe (not bleached) once a week. It has a lot of good bacteria and digestive enzymes.
As for supplements mine get kelp and salmon oil. If I have it handy they get some antioxidants (vit A, E and such), but not on regular basis and only those vit that don’t store in the body. Remember that over supplementing is as dangerous as not having enough.
I’ve been feeding mine raw for years. They love it and they are healthy. Not everything needs to be “balanced” every day. Mine get meat dinners 4-5 days a week and veggie dinners 2-3 days a week. As long as they get what they need in a week or two periods they are fine.

I know that many will not agree, but we’ve been brain washed by commercial food companies. They are telling us that they are the only ones who know what’s good for our animals, need for balanced meals every single day (think about it, do you get balanced meals every single day), its easier to feed kibble, etc……overall we are helpless without them and their expertise. Anyway…..

This is one of mine eating her turkey wing
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/SashaOmar/Sasha-eating.jpg

bluntman
March 21st, 2005, 06:09 AM
Thank you Natasa, Zena is on a compleat pre-packaged raw diet, so there is meat,bones, kelp,veggies, and vitimins in every package, It's good to know I can give her wings from time to time, provided she chews them properly. As I learn more about BARF, I will eventualy make my own meals up for her with less kelp(she hates that stuff) I'm hopeing there is something else I can use instead, if I look around.

meimei
March 21st, 2005, 03:17 PM
I want to respond, but not quite sure what to say. From what I have seen people on this website have VERY strong opinions, and don't seem to take well to questions, or different views.
I was only offering the experience I have had with dogs on the BARF diet, and thats what the OP asked for. I started very clearly that it might be the way they handle the dogs that is laos different and caused the changes.... I'm sorry if you feel that I should not have relayed my experience to the person.

I'll keep quiet now.


I hate seeing conversations like these!
To the original poster..... who developed this silly idea... I don't know how you can quantify or justify your statement.

A dog on raw food is no more agressive than the same dog with a cookie, a toy or other goodie who simply doesn't want to lose a good thing.

Statements like yours can be very harmful and can harm entire communities.
Just my two cents worth!
MM

Safyre
March 21st, 2005, 06:35 PM
I said that there were different characterisitcs in the dogs that were fed BARF, compared to the breeders I have gone to that fed commercial food. breeders of the same breed dogs.
I ALSO stated that they may be handling thier dogs differently, and this may be the cause for the character changes.
Thats it.

Prin
March 21st, 2005, 06:44 PM
Meimei-- it seemed like the topic was getting back on track. Please just let it.

meimei
March 21st, 2005, 09:53 PM
For those of you still on the fence, here's a very good read which will help you better understand what you are feeding your dog when you serve up commercial dog foods.

What's Really In Dog Food
http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm

Cheers
MM

2Cats&AGolden
March 22nd, 2005, 12:15 AM
My 3 1/2 year old golden retriever has been on a completely raw diet since late puppyhood. She is in excellent shape and has the mildest temperament around. No health problems whatsoever, a dynamite coat with little shedding, no doggy smell, and sparkling teeth to boot. We feed a wide variety of meat, bone, veg & fruit, no grains or dairy. It has been a wonderful experience and has taught our entire family a lot about nutrition.

While research is in order, I find it patronizing when people say canine nutrition is much too complicated for pet owners to "handle" on their own. We feed ourselves and our children without a PhD, don't we????