Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Can u show a dog if their ears are not cropped[dobes and such]

heidiho
March 11th, 2005, 01:52 PM
I was reading an article that California is trying to make a law banning cropping of ears,my question is ,like when u show a dog do there ears and tails have to be cropped??????

LavenderRott
March 11th, 2005, 02:07 PM
IMHO - a natural dobe looks a lot like a black and tan coonhound. But that is just my opinion.

It depends on what the breed standard says, Heidi. I know that there are some lovely imported Rotties with tails that are being shown in the States. Since I don't go often though, I couldn't tell you how they are doing.

wjranch
March 11th, 2005, 02:08 PM
CKC standard for Dobie's states that natural ears and tail will not be penalized in the show ring. However, most judges prefer them cropped and docked.

heidiho
March 11th, 2005, 02:13 PM
Ok ,so then do people that do that to there dogs cruel people??Or does that make it ok...

wjranch
March 11th, 2005, 02:57 PM
It is done purely for esthetics yes. However, it isn't like you slam 'em down on the ground, hold him with your knee, and start hacking away :D

The ears are done under general anesthetic and much care is taken to crop the ear properly. The tails are docked usually at 2-3 days old, I believe the nerves are very immature in the tail area at this point, and a good vet will remove the tail properly. There are different methods for docking, some not so humane I might add. :( I believe if you research your vet and get the best possible care for the animals, then there is nothing wrong with cropping/docking.... it's the 'hacks' (forgive the pun) that try to do a job they aren't trained for and make a mess of it that give it a bad image. IMHO :D

heidiho
March 11th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Dont misunderstand me,if i had a dobe or whatever i would crop the ears,i am just pointing it out because there are people that think it is cruel..Same with crating,but show dogs are cooped up for hours at a time also,so does it make it okay because they are show dogs[which is really something that is to the owners bebefit]Why are they not bad people like people that have to work for 8 hours????????? Just a question not trying to start arguements...

Trinitie
March 11th, 2005, 03:18 PM
Please, let's keep this conversation "kennel" (or "crate" as some call it) free. There's another thread that is specifically geared to it.

Ears & tails, if done correctly, are part of what a judge looks for in a Dobie. The only "surgery" allowed is that which does the ears and tail. No other surgery is allowed in a show ring.
Personally, I prefer the unaltered look of a Dobie, but I'm not a professional judge.

maddoxies
March 11th, 2005, 03:44 PM
One story of how tail docking started: - many years ago, there was a luxury tax in Germany on household pets, but working dogs were exempt. The tails were docked to signify a working dog and therefore not subject to the tax ("working" included hunting, guarding, herding) If you think about the breeds with docked tails (poodles, dobies, etc) they are all breeds that originated in Germany.

The breed standard may say that tails and ears do not need to be docked, but judges' preference will probably rule the day in the show ring. When I used to show my golden, it was known which judges preferred the English blond goldens, and which ones preferred the American reds.

Beetlecat
March 11th, 2005, 04:15 PM
I used to show cattle, and it's the same. No matter what the breed standard says, and no matter how good your animal is, half the battle is enticing the right judge into the ring.

I've seen families win year after year simply because they were the people picking what judge would be at the show and they knew what he/she wanted to see. I've seen judges pick animals with major faults simply because that fault was 'in style' currently and they didn't think about what it could do to the animal in the future. I prefer judges that actually propogate that breed themselves because they tend to be a little more realistic.

This 'favoritism', you could call it, is actually why (amongst other reasons) I'm not a fan of purebred dogs.

Prin
March 11th, 2005, 04:23 PM
What I don't get is that shows are to choose the dog that is closest to perfection for the breed, right? So if his ears are cropped, is the judge supposed to think that genetically, the dog is closer? Or does the judge just think you have a better doggie cosmetic surgeon? Speaking from experience, I had my ears pinned when I was 8 and I will remember that pain FOREVER. I was under general anesthetic and I had the best surgeon in canada at the time supposedly, and it is a pain that is unbelievable.

Ears are erogenous zones on humans and on dogs. People are becoming more and more anti circumcision and I think ear cropping should fit in the same ballpark.

Maybe we should ask some whacked out trekkie who had his ears done spock-style how much it hurts? It's the only way to know for sure.

maddoxies
March 11th, 2005, 04:35 PM
Dogs are supposed to be judged against the breed standard. The standard allows both styles. But at the end of the day, it is one person's judgement on that day, so in the end of course, it has to be somewhat subjective.

On the other hand, once when showing my dog, we were the only entrant in our group and she won First. I was told that this was not a cakewalk, that she had to have been "on" that day, we could have received 2nd or 3rd or nothing. (She went on to get Best Opposite Sex that day).

FYI I showed her from age 6 months to 9 months purely for socialization purposes. She was always a family pet, and spayed at 9 months. But those three months of showing, being around all those people, noise, other dogs, etc was wonderful for her. She taught herself to look after my dad (blind) and did hospital visitation right up until she was 16 yrs old.

Jackie467
March 11th, 2005, 04:41 PM
In the US you can show a dog with natural ears and tail, but will they win, almost certainly not. a lot of it is what that specific judge thinks looks best. yes the judge is suposed to pick a dog that is very close to what it genetically should be, but truth is dogs shows are a lot about appearence just as the Miss america show is. I'v had dobies since i was born and my family always had their ears cropped (the tails were docked when we got them because we only went through a certain breeder and that is just the way he did things.) yes it's mostly done for asthetics. I personally like the way a dobe looks with his tail docked and his ears cropped. all our dogs that had their ears done were on pain meds and it never slowed them down. they never showed any sign of pain at all. if i get another dobie i will crop his ears. many people think it's crule and that is fine if that's what you think it doesn't bother me then don't do it, but i don't think it is crule and see nothing wrong with it.

Just thought i'd throw my oppinion in. :D

Prin
March 11th, 2005, 04:55 PM
What about if you had to do it 4 times in 3 months, like a guy at our park? Would you consider it cruel then?

I don't think tail docking is cruel, personally, because the nerves are not developped at a super early age (any later on and I would think it's very very cruel), but in ears, there are always a ton of nerves, regardless of when you cut them.

Working at a vet, we declawed 2 cats every day and the ones that were 2.5 months woke up and batted your fingers with their bandages and were ready to play and didn't show any pain at all but I am pretty sure that nearly EVERYBODY in this forum disagrees with declawing...

Jackie467
March 11th, 2005, 05:20 PM
if you had to crop your dogs ears that many times it means either one your vet isn't doing it right two there is something wrong with the muscules that hold the dogs ears up or three your not letting the cone on his head and ears long enough or it's comming off too much. We have owned many dobies and only one ever had to have another surgury for his ears to stand. sometimes when they are older their ears will fall and there is nothing you can do about it. we had a dobe whos ears fell when he was 5, this happens and we just left them that way. if your dogs ears are falling that much it means something else is wrong. I would defenitaly tell this guy to just accept that the ears won't stand and also tell him to find another vet for cropping. you shouldn't paly around when cropping ears, it's very serious. for instance we drove 4 hours to a vet who specialized in doing crops. our regular vet would have done it but we wanted it done right the first time so we went to the specialist and payed the little extra cash. well worth it because we only had that one problem with the ears falling when the dog was young. but like i said sometimes they fall when the dog gets older and there is nothing you can do about it.

greaterdane
March 11th, 2005, 09:30 PM
I am a little biased to ear cropping as I have seen a horrible job. The dobe that my mother in law owns had the worst cropping job done. His one ear folded over his head and they were done way too short and too much of the ear on the sides was taken off. It looked as if it was a home job. He was a rescue so we are not sure who did it but whoever it was should be banned from owning a dog. His ears are still sensitive and he is over 3 years old now. I like the look and all and prefer it, but would only want it if the dog came that way, I would never purchase a dog then have it done.

Jackie467
March 11th, 2005, 09:51 PM
that makes me so mad. how could they do that to the dog? it's just horrible. when you crop a dogs ears you need to do serious research on a vet and make sure they are a specialist, and if they're far away well then prepare for a drive. If you crop you need to get references from people that had their dogs ears cropped by that vet. if possible ask to meet the dog and inspect their ears. this is what we did when looking for a vet to do the cropping. our vet was highly recommended by both his patients and teachers he had that we spoke to.
Cropping is a serious decision, and has to be treated as such. a lot of research needs to be done before you pick a vet. I'm really sorry that happened to your moms dog. I'm glad he found a good home.
oh and i just noticed that prin said the guy did his dogs ears 4 times in 3 months. earlier i thought it said 3 years. what is wrong with this man. talk about negligence. after being cropped a dogs ears will usually be bound up for about a month for them to stand. he was not leaving the cone on long enough and obviously didn't do his research on a vet who knows what he is doing.