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To crate or not to crate? What do you say?

Prin
March 10th, 2005, 01:03 AM
We started a discussion on crating in another thread (maybe this has been discussed before, so I apologize if it has but I guess there may be unresolved issues...).

Melanie asked why we crate so much here, she said:
and jsut a q to all the crate people, i am not being smart here but this is a genuine concern for me in this method, dont go gettin all cranky, its an inquiry-, if you lock you dog in a cage when you feel like it, how does that make them an equal and respected member of your family?? when they seem to have no rights or choice of freedom??and cannot hang out or come and go as they please? isnt hanging out what a dogs life is all about???also i would like to know how this method fosters a healthy pack, when one member of the family is only in the pack when choosen?

And I answered:
Melanie-- I don't agree with crates either, none of my babies were ever caged except at the SPCA... The thing about North America (AND I HOPE I am not offending anyone too badly) but work is a huge priority here. People are so busy and work so many hours that they just don't have the time to spend with a puppy, in training and in supervision.

And then Amber 416 replied:
Prin, i live in North America and i am not offended at all.....in fact i completely agree with you. I think you nailed it right on the head. It's not like i think crate training is cruel, when used in moderation of course, but I know a family who has this beautiful,extremely energetic chocolate lab and not only do they leave him in a crate when they work their normal 9-5 job, but then they turn around and put the poor guy in a crate overnight too! So basically he is confined to a cage for two thirds of the day. Makes me wonder what the point of having a pet even is in that type of situation.

So that's where we are... What does everybody else feel about crates?

meowzart
March 10th, 2005, 01:57 AM
crates are great - that's my opinion. The two dogs I have crate trained vs the two that weren't were far easier to handle and were 'potty trained' properly whereas the other two always had toilet issues.

My two crate-dogs LOVED their crates. (well not the first night..) but that was 'their' space - their den - to which they would retreat for rest peace and security. Long after we quit putting our spaniel in her crate at night - she would put herself in there, and we would come home and she would be lying in her crate with the door open. There's nothing cruel about it, unless used to 'cage' incessantly. As a training tool it is a good one, as a punishment or convenience it is bad.

Yes people have jobs and prefer not to come home to having their dining room chairs chewed up etc., and that is reality - not selfishness.

how does that make them an equal and respected member of your family

the dog is NOT an equal member - I am in fact the boss not the dog. Respected yes - equal no. The dog doesn't have a right to be everywhere and anywhere he wants to when ever he/she pleases. People I know with this mentality have obnoxious dogs that are out of control. The dog earns the right to gain freedom in the house by learning self control and dependable behavior.

BMDLuver
March 10th, 2005, 07:27 AM
Why we crate train every dog that comes through this house. It's for their safety as well as to try and have a house not totally destroyed. All dogs go through a destruction stage and for their safety when you do have to go out, it's best to crate. Once they become more mature we do away with the crating but continue to use it periodically so that the dog does not stress if it is needed at some point again, for instances such as:
Travelling in a vehicle, travelling by air, or working with a new dog that has just come in and is not very social with our resident dog.

Dahlia
March 10th, 2005, 07:38 AM
I'm no expert but I think crate training is fine, as long as it's not overused. If someone works 8 hrs a day and has to leave the dog in a crate all day, then puts him back in there at night, then they shouldn't have a dog. And I'm not someone who doesn't know how it is to have to work. I've worked full time jobs since I was 16 - and that's why I haven't had a dog since I was a kid - until now. Fortunately my husband is now making sufficient income that I can be home with the kids, so we decided we could finally have a dog. I couldn't expect her to stay in a crate all day while I worked and stay sane.

I agree with the person who said why not get an older dog who's already past this stage? Then you can enjoy spending time with the dog without having all the puppy issues to deal with.

I personally chose to get a puppy so that I could control how she's socialized and what she's exposed to so that she is well adapted to our family and lifestyle, but I'm home all day and have time to mess with her. My husband got a 1 yr old Aussie a few weeks ago and sadly we had to send him back to the prior owner because he had biting issues. He loved me and the baby but would full out attack my dh and also bit my 2 older kids, and none of them did ANYTHING to bring it on. If I hadn't had kids I would've kept him and worked with him, but with the kids around it was just too risky. He was also a product of being kept in a crate all day, let out for a few hours in the evening, and back in there at night. The owners found an older single lady to take him and I hope he's doing well with her. On the bright side she will have a wonderful watch dog.

Sorry, I got a little off topic, but that's my view on the subject.

heidiho
March 10th, 2005, 08:38 AM
I used to think crates sounded like a horrible thing,but when i had my puppy,and started him right off with it,i loved it,so did he,he would go in there on his own and eat his bones,or nap,i would grab my keys in the morning and he would go right in,no i think 8 hours in one sucks,But believe me there could be worse things for a dog then a comfy,air conditioned crate....................I am all for crating,,,,,,,,,,,,

Dahlia
March 10th, 2005, 08:55 AM
:eek: Oops, I just went back and read what I wrote earlier, and I didn't mean to say that if you work you shouldn't have a dog, but I don't think you should get a puppy IF it's going to have to stay in a crate all day and all night. Sorry.

mona_b
March 10th, 2005, 09:18 AM
I find nothing wrong with crating.What I do find wrong is someone using it to punish the dog/pup, or still crating once the pup is housetrained and not chewing.This should be the time when the dog/pup becomes a real part of the family.Sleeping at the end of the bed.Or in the kids room.Having them go from room to room to check and make sure the family is ok... :)

My fear about crating is what if there's a fire.Do you really have time to get them out of the crate?Especially those who keep them in the basement.

I never crated.I just blocked off the kitchen.And by 5-6 months,they had the run of the house.

sammiec
March 10th, 2005, 09:24 AM
Well, Briggs has had a crate since we brought her home at approximately 11 weeks old. She loves it, and it helps me realx a little while she's at home unsuperivsed. We NEVER use the crate for disipline! She goes in there on her own when we get home from work and the door is open. Some days she can spend up to 7 hours in there and she is perfectly content. She has toys, food, water, blankies.. everything. I leave the radio on, and the kitchen light. She has no problem with it.

She doesn't sleep in there at night, she has a bed beside ours. So the maximum she ever spends (out of 24 hours) is 7. I still think that's alot.

I was a tiny bit offended by the remark about North Americans see work as more important then their animals. I may be the minority, but I don't view work to be my priority. I work because I have to in order to survive. My priority is to make sure that my animals are safe and both alive when I come home. So, in some cases a crate can be your dog's best friend.
In North America people do work alot; but it doesn't always mean they want to...it's the culture and lifestyle that has been created here and everyone is excepted to follow it, if we like it or not.
Not to brag, but I find that my dog is VERY well socialized and very well mannered and I do make an effort to give her the best possible care! Just because someone else doesn't work, doesn't mean they love their animal more then I do.

mona_b
March 10th, 2005, 09:33 AM
AMEN sammie.

I guess I missed that part.

heidiho
March 10th, 2005, 10:00 AM
:usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: I missed that to,are u kiddin me,work is more important than our animals,uh yeah my eating and having a roof over my head is my # 1 priority.....It takes working to feed and buy things for your animal also, :usa: .............................

SarahLynn123
March 10th, 2005, 10:05 AM
My concerns about crating while Im at work is 1) What if theres a fire, she would have to sit there and hope someone saved her. At least if shes able to move around, she has a chance of surviving. 2) What if someone robbed my house. As weve seen time and time again people are cruel and a dog unable to defend itself could get hurt or killed. (Ive been robbed before in a good part of the city so it does happen) Ive had friends fish killed by robbers (poured detergent in the water) and I worry what they are capable of doing to a caged animal. This happend in a small town. I got an older dog so the chewing was over and potty trained her without crating her (It did take a while though)

heidiho
March 10th, 2005, 10:13 AM
I see your point,but i guess everything in life is what if/////If that is what u worry about most then dont crate...To me it is like saying what if i get in my car and get in an accident what if i am walking and get hit by a car,everything has risks and benefits i guess.

sammiec
March 10th, 2005, 10:17 AM
Melanie-- I don't agree with crates either, none of my babies were ever caged except at the SPCA... The thing about North America (AND I HOPE I am not offending anyone too badly) but work is a huge priority here. People are so busy and work so many hours that they just don't have the time to spend with a puppy, in training and in supervision.

It was part of the original post. I don't think that Melanie meant it that way... though.. but I just hate that people have that view of North America... not all of us are money grubbers here!!! :p

I agree with Heidi's last post.. there are always "what ifs" If you have a sign that says "please save my animals in case of emergency" then that aspect can be taken care of.

heidiho
March 10th, 2005, 10:33 AM
It is true,i think the crating benefits out way the what if my place catches on fire,or what if someone breaks in,which whether the dog is in the crate or not most likely they would be armed anyway you know...

topaz_n29
March 10th, 2005, 10:43 AM
I have had many dogs in my lifetime...sumtms 4 or 5 at a time (i live in the country).i crate trained every one..for the nite only..With my new baby now 9 weeks Shih..when i go out ...we have a compartment type bathroom..he goes in there w/hisr toys etc. paper..water and his crate ..left open..he sleeps in there if he wants...other wise she is free to roam..i am out 3x a week for about 3hours to go for my workouts..he has been soo good..YES
I beleive in crate training..it always worked 4 me :grouphug:

lilith_rizel
March 10th, 2005, 11:21 AM
I do see where work would have to be a priority. Without the proper money, you couldn't take care of a pet properly. I am happy that I don't have to really work..... Yet. Will start up work next week or the following. I am getting my mom's company, so I will help run it.

But to say that work is far more important? I think it is more important for everyone (including pets) in the household to be happy is more important.

lilith_rizel
March 10th, 2005, 11:24 AM
I crate, always have and always will. I only crate until they 6 months, and slowly give them the run of the house, until they are a year.

CyberKitten
March 10th, 2005, 12:13 PM
Wow, lots of issues here!

I have lived with four dogs - one when I was a toddler so clearly, I had no input into that, lol. None were crate trained. In fact, I only ever heard of "the crate" a few years ago when my brother's vet recommended one for training his chocolate lab.

It does sound like a good training tool. the aforementioned Lab would go into his crate when my brother was at work but he would come home for a noon break and had someone else come in for other breaks during the day. The dog seemed to actually like the crate - it was his space, he had all his toys, food and water and his fav blanket. He slept with my brother at night and the crate was essentially just used for training. As he got older and passed the destructive phase, the crate was phased out and he never looks at it now. He has a great doggie bed but still sleeps with my brother and his wife. (Not sure his wife planned on having a doggie in bed with her but she does, lol)

Re: "not all of us are money grubbers here!!!" I love my work and earn a good salary doing it but do not consider myself a money grubber. Actually, my family gets angry with me sometimes for doing too much "for nothing" as they see it. I regard volunteering as an investment and contribution to my community. I grew up with a plethora of medical problems so I became a doctor to help people, not to make money!

Lucky Rescue
March 10th, 2005, 01:01 PM
People are so busy and work so many hours that they just don't have the time to spend with a puppy, in training and in supervision.

Anyone who has no time to spend with a puppy should not get a puppy. I think it's selfish to get one and leave it in a cage alone all day. I think this is one of the reasons that so many dogs seem to have problems these days with separation anxiety, improper socialization and aggression. Being raised in isolation from 8 weeks old is a seriously deprived and unnatural existance for a pack/companion animal like the dog.

When getting a pet, we cannot just think "I want" no matter the consequences to the animal. We must be fair and get a pet who suits our lifestyle. If no one is home during the day, get an older dog who is housetrained and used to being alone. I used to dearly want a puppy, but I worked all my life and couldn't visualize leaving a puppy alone all day every day, so never did get one. We can't always have what we want, when it's at the expense of another creature who also has feelings.

Crates are fine tools to aid in housetraining. I agree dogs should be crate trained in case of emergency, for eg. your house burns down and you have to stay with friends or at a motel with your dog.

Dogs are not cage pets. Even with animals who ARE cage pets, like rodents or rabbits, I think anyone would be outraged if they saw one in a dark shipping crate - just big enough to stand up or turn around in - for up to 16+ hours out of 24.

Prin
March 10th, 2005, 02:55 PM
Melanie-- I don't agree with crates either, none of my babies were ever caged except at the SPCA... The thing about North America (AND I HOPE I am not offending anyone too badly) but work is a huge priority here. People are so busy and work so many hours that they just don't have the time to spend with a puppy, in training and in supervision.

Just to clarify, I wrote this... It seems to be the most controversial and Melanie is not to blame... I wrote it TO melanie...

And I didn't mean that work is a priority over pets, I meant that work monopolizes people's time and they don't have enough time left over to give the dog as much attention as it deserves (especially in the case of a puppy).

Travelling in a vehicle, travelling by air, or working with a new dog that has just come in and is not very social with our resident dog.

After working for an airline in the baggage handling area, I have vowed never to put my babies on a plane, ever. The horror stories about losing pets and putting airport strays in the crate so no one would notice, dogs being let out of crates and then running around the airport eventually to get shot because no one could catch him... If I can't drive, I ain't goin'. Travelling in a car-- they make material tubes now that stretch across the back seat. I drive a sedan and there is no way I could fit my 96lb dog in any crate that will fit in there...

The dog doesn't have a right to be everywhere and anywhere he wants to when ever he/she pleases. People I know with this mentality have obnoxious dogs that are out of control. The dog earns the right to gain freedom in the house by learning self control and dependable behavior.

I don't know who you know, but more people I know with uncontrollable dogs crate them. The ones who give them free reign on the house are confident in their training skills and their dogproofing, and it usually shows in a good way.

I would rather dogproof my house than crate any day. If there is nothing to chew except stuff they are allowed to chew, that's what they'll get. My dogs have always had free reign on our house and when they had separation anxiety, we'd set them up-- we'd put out rolled up newspaper and hide bones and cookies. The first target when we'd leave was the newspaper. Shredded to bits. Then the cookies, then the bone. By the time he got through all that, there was no energy left to chew anything else. Besides that, I came home after a maximum of 4 hours alone because that's what I promised the SPCA (even though the SPCA couldn't care less how long my babies are alone...) Shoes cost what? $100? How long do sofas last? 7 years? My dog is worth more to me than that and he'll outlive most of that furniture. Maybe I'm alone in this, but he's a puppy and it's just stuff. (Just don't buy a new sofa right before getting a puppy, obviously...)

Why don't cat owners crate cats when they scratch the furniture when they're at work? It seems to me when you have a cat with nails, chances are you have a few claw marks in the furniture in the beginning.

What about geriatric dogs? They tend to get incontinent. Will the craters crate then too, so the dog won't ruin the carpet? I guess it depends on your patience level and your tolerance for mistakes...

Lucky Rescue
March 10th, 2005, 03:15 PM
Why don't cat owners crate cats when they scratch the furniture when they're at work?
Some people just declaw them.:( Much easier than making the effort involved with training them.

It seems to me when you have a cat with nails, chances are you have a few claw marks in the furniture in the beginning.

Yep. I sure do, but then I didn't expect to have pets AND a perfect house. Cats shed, and scratch, and puke and pee. Dogs chew and bark and shed. IF you have no tolerance for this, I suggest you adopt PURRFECT (http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=4126883&adTarget=468petsgeneral&SessionID=4230aa6450677951-app1&display=&preview=1&row=0&tmpl=&stat=) who is listed on my site now.:p

What about geriatric dogs? They tend to get incontinent. Will the craters crate then too, so the dog won't ruin the carpet? I guess it depends on your patience level and your tolerance for mistakes...
Yep. My old dog peed on the floor, sometimes pooped on the floor too. I cleaned it up.

sammiec
March 10th, 2005, 03:17 PM
By your post it sounds as though you're looking for an argument. I thought you were just curious as to why some people choose crates. We gave you reasons as to why we feel more comfortable; I don't know if it's just me, but I sense a whole bunch of digs at those that crate to be bad owners. To each his own I guess.
I am quite happy with my dogs obedience skills and the fact that she is very well mannered. It seems that you're saying that dogs having free reign over the house are better and more obedient then those that are crated, is that not what you're trying to say?
We too have had accidents, chews, stratches and such. That's not why I choose to use a crate. I could careless about that.

Prin
March 10th, 2005, 03:20 PM
I agree-- I was being a tad sarcastic... I totally don't expect a nice house with two big doggies. The black tumbleweeds roll all over...

I'm so afraid now about these dogs' bladders. When I was younger, my dad would make us leave our dogs at home because he was too allergic to put them in the car when we went up to my grandparents' cottage. The dogs would last from Friday night until Sunday afternoon without going out. When one got older she had really bad incontinence and the vet said it could have been caused by a lifetime of making her hold it too long... I tell you, as soon as I got my license, I got a car and I drove the dogs up separately... Now though, I am neurotic. I bring my doggies out so often just for a pee because I don't want to see them embarrassed by their old age puddles...

sammiec
March 10th, 2005, 03:24 PM
What your father did is harsh and cruel. And those dogs were free to roam throughout the house right...? Well, just because the dog has free reign of the house doesn't necessarily mean that's the best for them then does it!?

No one here is saying that we leave our dogs in crates for 72 hours, forget even being ALONE for that long!! That's abuse.

A dog can be very well adjusted and very well mannered when using a crate properly.

So are you saying that people who work for 12 hours, but their dog has free reign of the home is better off then a dog that is crated for 5 hours??

Prin
March 10th, 2005, 03:28 PM
Actually, those dogs were locked up as my dad was allergic... We didn't have a choice back then as my dad was very military-- why did we have dogs? He wasn't allergic the whole time, he started to travel for work and while he was away developped allergies.

Now that I am in control, my doggies have it much better. They have free reign, good training, good food and frequent pee breaks..

Prin
March 10th, 2005, 03:28 PM
No dog is better off being alone for 12 hours, no matter what the other option is.

sammiec
March 10th, 2005, 03:30 PM
So then you've seen the MISUSE of a crate and assume that's what all people do to their dogs?

Prin
March 10th, 2005, 03:31 PM
I've seen it more often than I have seen the good side of crating. I'm not denying that some people use crates well, what I am saying is that crates are not necessary and do not legitimize getting a dog that you don't have time for.

Prin
March 10th, 2005, 03:33 PM
People get fed up easily with puppies these days and crates provide relief to these impatient people. That is what I disagree with. Crating him because he is a puppy and you can't handle it. If you crate for his safety and don't crate when you are home, that's fine.

heidiho
March 10th, 2005, 04:16 PM
You know seems some people here think every dog is the same,well they are not,so what works for some may not work on another dog.............................................Ma ybe we cant all have perfect dogs that are just a dream to train without a crate.....Yeah crating a puppy for 8 hours sucks,but u seem to think we live in an perfect world,well i know i dont,a dog could have it a hell of alot worse than being in a crate in a loving home./...It could be in a shelter,chained outside all day etc etc.................................

Sneaky2006
March 10th, 2005, 04:29 PM
It seems to me you started this thread just for arguements sake. What exactly did you want out of it?

We crate our dog... I myself don't work, but at night and whenever we are away, he's crated.
He hasn't chewed anything yet and that's because he's watched when we're home and the crate watches him when we're not. It makes perfect sense. I know my dog would chew things, probably chase the cats, eat their food and whatever else he wanted if he wasn't crated.

Comparing that to crating cats is just insane. My cats scratch the furniture when I'm sitting on it. while we're away, quick scratch on the way to sleep yet again doesn't make a difference, but chewing furniture is a completely different story.

You're having this arguement about people who crate when they're home (and not asleep, I'm guessing) and nobody here that posted does that...

CyberKitten
March 10th, 2005, 04:54 PM
Re: Prin's remarks about the airlines. I think for the most part that's true- you hear so many horror stories, a cat and her carrier run over and the big bugaboo - the lack of oxygen (to save money) in the cargo hold. I do travel with my cat by airplane but I make the arrangements first so that I can take her on the plane with me. I've never had any bad experiences that way. Even travelling by car, cats should stay in their carrier - so many have been lost when they bolted out due to an accident or some scare.

Just my thoughts on travel by air with a cat.

Prin
March 10th, 2005, 10:33 PM
Ya, I wish that I could bring my doggies on the plane- they'd make the ride much more fun then talking to strangers... But if there's barely room for a person, I don't know how a 96lb dog will fit in the chair. He won't have room to put his tray down.

As for this thread, I have only seen bad crate usage and I wanted to hear from more responsible people, and how they feel about it. Whether they have tried anything else and this is a last resort or if they jumped right into it.

Sneaky2006
March 10th, 2005, 10:47 PM
Whether they have tried anything else and this is a last resort or if they jumped right into it. Last resort??? Try my first. You're still making it seem like everyone here that crates their dog is only doing it because we don't know what else to do, and that crating shouldn't be a regular option.

Prin
March 10th, 2005, 10:51 PM
No, I'm just wondering what the reasoning is for people who crate. Just like how you guys who do crate seem to think that we who don't are all stay at home moms or have dogs that dominate us, I just want to hear the reasoning from the people who do it. Like ask pitbull owners what they think about breed bans, ask craters why they like crating. Judgements aside, I just wanted feedback from the other side.

Sneaky2006
March 10th, 2005, 11:03 PM
Just like how you guys who do crate seem to think that we who don't are all stay at home moms or have dogs that dominate us, Who thinks that?? Some people agree with crating, some people don't, it's that simple. I am not judging anyone for not doing it, just as I hope no one is judging me because I do.

You said judgements aside, but that's all you're doing is judging, I don't get it.

Everyone here that crates does it for the safety of their other animals, themselves, or to save what's left of their house. Isn't that all you wanted?

meowzart
March 10th, 2005, 11:39 PM
The dog doesn't have a right to be everywhere and anywhere he wants to when ever he/she pleases. People I know with this mentality have obnoxious dogs that are out of control. The dog earns the right to gain freedom in the house by learning self control and dependable behavior.

I don't know who you know, but more people I know with uncontrollable dogs crate them. The ones who give them free reign on the house are confident in their training skills and their dogproofing, and it usually shows in a good way

You missed the point of what I said - My comment was directed at the mentality of the dog being an 'equal member of the family' ; that has nothing to do with crating. People with the mentality that the dog is equal hence there's no alpha being are the ones with obnoxious pets - that has nothing to do with crating! A dog needs to 'earn' the right for more freedom in my opinion.

crating or not crating isn't what creates a better behaved dog.

I don't think that those of us that crate are saying anyone's wrong NOT to crate - whatever floats your boat. But if you have never TRIED training by crating then don't critisize. Obviously all of us 'animal freaks' are using it successfully and in a way that is working to create a healthy well adjusted family member.

Prin
March 11th, 2005, 01:21 AM
I don't get it-- I reread all my posts and it seems like I am getting attacked for things I didn't even say. I never said uncrated dogs were more obedient than crated dogs. I just replied to the person who said dogs who had free run of the house were obnoxious and out of control. I repeat what other people wrote and that makes me judgemental? It seems I'm getting attacked here more than anybody else. I just wanted to know why you all crated and I get attacked. I got my answer a long time ago and I am still getting attacked. Why does everybody assume the worst tone in what I write? I meant no tone. I asked if it was a last resort. If it wasn't all you had to answer was "no, it's my preferred method." I just don't understand the BASICS of crating. I didn't understand what came first, the dog or the crate. That's all. I didn't need the jumping to conclusions or the attacks.

I got my answer harshly and despite that, I am happy I know why now.

meowzart
March 11th, 2005, 02:23 AM
to the person who said dogs who had free run of the house were obnoxious and out of control

WOULD YOU PLEASE GET YOUR QUOTES RIGHT!!!!! yes I'm yelling - I explained AGAIN that that is NOT what I said. Would you read it please sheesh that's annoying!

BMDLuver
March 11th, 2005, 03:06 AM
Prin wrote in a thread about incontinent Beagle: I'm so glad you're giving this doggy another chance. What about putting him in a smaller room, like a bathroom when you're not home, instead of a hard to clean basement? You can even buy a baby gate so he won't feel as confined because he'll see out.
How does this differ from a crate?

happycats
March 11th, 2005, 07:35 AM
OK, I just started reading this thread, and I think, Prin was just trying to start a good debate on why people do or don't crate, and their reasons for it!

I don't think people should get so offended, I don't think any harm was meant by it, flame me is you want for saying it. Why do some use crates and some don't??
It's getting everyones take on it, and maybe after new people(or people just getting a new dog) read through all the threads they can make a more informed decision, based on the answers that people here give.

Basically what I'm trying to say is,don't you think it's better to make this thread more for educational purposes then, flaming purposes??

mona_b
March 11th, 2005, 08:52 AM
"people are so busy and work so many hours that they just don't have the time to spend with a puppy,in training and in supervision"

(sorry,couldn't find this to quote it)

This is not true will all people.I do shift work,and work 12 hours.I raised 2-3 month old GSD's.No I didn't crate them.Like I stated before,I blocked off the kitchen.Yes I paper trained them.This was 9 years ago.And I had no problems house training them this was.They were taught all basic commands,and were both socialized all the time.I made sure of that.Especially since my one was going to become a Police Dog.And with they training I gave him,he passed with flying colours.He became my brothers partner.Even with my shift work and hours,I made darn sure I was going to focus on their training and socializing.Both my dogs were very well trainined and very well socialized.

Yes,I do know of some people who do get a puppy and have no time what so ever.The poor puppy is left alone for hours at a time.Which is not good for a very young one.Especially since they can't hold it in for a long period of time.This is where a famly friend or dog sitter comes in.They are handy.And if they puppy chews,where does it get put?Yes,back in the crate instead of being re-directed and taught what he can and cannot chew.And they wonder why they can't break the chewing habit.Sorry,but I have seen this a few times.And then they end up in shelters cause they can't take it no more.And they go out and get another.This ticks me off.

So if you don't have time for a pup,then no,you definately should not get one.

heidiho
March 11th, 2005, 09:36 AM
I do agree with getting a puppy if u cant have someone come over and let it out..My experience with the crate was great,at night when he was a puppy we had him in bed with us he would get up in the middle of the night and go lay in his crate,when i had to run to the store i would say kennel he would go right in,if i had to go out for a bit i would put him in there,i never put him in there as punishment,he would go in on his own and chew on a bone or just nap,i used to think they seemed cruel but it was the best tool i used..I let him have the kitchen once ,he chewed the baseboards so if u dont mind stuff like that then that is great but if u do then the crate is perfect,and like i said before ALL DOGS ARE DIFFERENT,we cant all be blessed with a perfect dog that doesnt need to be crated......

sammiec
March 11th, 2005, 09:48 AM
but more people I know with uncontrollable dogs crate them. The ones who give them free reign on the house are confident in their training skills and their dogproofing, and it usually shows in a good way.

Shoes cost what? $100? How long do sofas last? 7 years? My dog is worth more to me than that and he'll outlive most of that furniture. Maybe I'm alone in this, but he's a puppy and it's just stuff.

Why don't cat owners crate cats when they scratch the furniture when they're at work? It seems to me when you have a cat with nails, chances are you have a few claw marks in the furniture in the beginning.

What about geriatric dogs? They tend to get incontinent. Will the craters crate then too, so the dog won't ruin the carpet? I guess it depends on your patience level and your tolerance for mistakes...


I even called Prin on the fact that the posts were soundsing very antagonistic and Prin repsonded:
I agree-- I was being a tad sarcastic... I totally don't expect a nice house with two big doggies. The black tumbleweeds roll all over...

Prin says that they have only seen bad usage of crates, by people that don't care for their animals. By creating this thread it was to see what others think about crating.. I don't see where the antagonizing comments are required.. but it seems that every post is very sarcastic. For the future, if you're looking for information rather then an argument leave out the scarcasim. :)

Lucky Rescue
March 11th, 2005, 10:04 AM
Quote:
I'm so glad you're giving this doggy another chance. What about putting him in a smaller room, like a bathroom when you're not home, instead of a hard to clean basement? You can even buy a baby gate so he won't feel as confined because he'll see out.


How does this differ from a crate?

To me, it would be like the difference between me spending the day locked in my closet, or spending the day locked in my bedroom. I would certainly choose the latter.:p

heidiho
March 11th, 2005, 10:17 AM
It seems like alot of people compare putting a dog in a crate to sticking bamboo shoots under your nails,my god a dog could have it so much worse than being in a crate i just dont get it,the horrible things people do to animals and how they treat them,if the worse a dog has it is being in a crate while u HAVE to work,i dont see that as cruel and unusual punishment.....AS long as the dog is well cared for,played with,loved and fed...................

mona_b
March 11th, 2005, 10:43 AM
It seems like alot of people compare putting a dog in a crate to sticking bamboo shoots under your nails,my god a dog could have it so much worse than being in a crate i just dont get it,

Actually no we are not heidi.Would you like to be locked up for 8 hours and confined to a small area that you can't really stretch your legs,or play around then be let out for a few hours,then straight back in there for the night?I know I wouldn't.Here is something to think about.Before crating came around,how do you think people managed to have raised pups?And I'm talking about working families.Because as a child growing up with them,there was no such thing as crating.And my parents managed training them with no problems.

Honestly,I am not trying to argue about this.I'm just stating my opinion. :)

Prin
March 11th, 2005, 11:20 AM
How does it work with crating? Like the first day with an uncrated dog, you come home with the dog and there are blankets or a dog bed in some corner and eventually you show the dog where they are and where the water is and stuff and that's it. What do you do with a crate? You bring the dog home and what do you do to match him up with the crate? I guess puppies would go in it voluntarily to explore but what about older adopted doggies? I've never crated, and I just want to know the process...

happycats
March 11th, 2005, 11:40 AM
but what about older adopted doggies? I've never crated, and I just want to know the process...
Why would you want to crate an older adopted dog ?? :confused:
They should already be over the chewing stage.........I don't see the point, in crating an older dog.

Lucky Rescue
March 11th, 2005, 11:49 AM
Would you like to be locked up for 8 hours and confined to a small area that you can't really stretch your legs,or play around then be let out for a few hours,then straight back in there for the night? I know I wouldn't.Here is something to think about. Before crating came around,how do you think people managed to have raised pups?And I'm talking about working families.Because as a child growing up with them,there was no such thing as crating.And my parents managed training them with no problems

:thumbs up

You must have grown up in the Dark Ages, like I did.:p When most moms were home during the day, and puppies were raised like family members. No one heard of crates, and I never saw one til I was grown and met someone with showdogs.

And as for this "den" thing - not ONE top predator adult canine in the wild EVER spends any time in a den, expect for females whelping a litter.

I do have a crate, but only cats have ever been it.:D

heidiho
March 11th, 2005, 11:56 AM
That is like saying what did we do before computers, or cell phones,i am just saying for myself personally it was great,i would not like to locked up for 8 hours either,and i said i think that does suck,but not necassarily CRUELTY to an animal....I let Damien have run of my apt for a couple of hours once,which was my fault cause he was only 4 months old,but he chewed everything,yes i know that breed gets bored or whatever..But by no means do i think if u HAVE to crate your dog while you work is that cruel,cruel to me is chaining them outside all day when it is hot as hell or freezin..Like i said before he would go in there at night on his own to sleep,now if he hated it so much because i put him in there for a few hours a day,i really dont think he would of gone in there on his own when he didnt need to.. Just my opinion

meowzart
March 11th, 2005, 12:58 PM
Lest we forget - these are animals - and we are humans trying to domesticate and fit them into our indoor lifestyles. If we all could live in the country and yes be stay at home moms - no we wouldn't need to crate!

However, we seek the BEST way we can to be able to fit an animal - in this case a dog - into an unnatural way of living i.e. inside with a family. Dogs weren't designed to do this you know! So we could take it a step furthur and say it is cruel to keep a dog inside - my gosh it's cruel to keep a dog in a yard! They should all live on farms and work.

I don't think we need to be hissy about the issue - if you don't like it don't do it. But if you find it works - fine! Just stop with the 'i'm right you're wrong stuff'

Another note - vets have told me it is a huge help if a dog knows about being in a crate when/if they have to be in the hospital.

I don't have any rooms I can block off either and locking a dog in a closed bedroom/bathroom has in my experience always led to destruction of the floor and door. One night we 'forgot' to put Gemma in her crate when we left for a couple of hours, and she ate my kids homework - REALLY!!! :D

heidiho
March 11th, 2005, 01:21 PM
Meowzart, ditto with that,Crate if u like it,if u dont like it dont crate it is pretty simple..Jeez i think it is getting just a little ridiculous,you would think we were debating whether to beat your dog or not,i really dont get it,not all people can stay home and raise puppies or dogs or whatever./.........

wjranch
March 11th, 2005, 01:32 PM
I worked around the crate issue this way.... Instead of the crate I use an 8' round exercise pen.. 4' high, wire like a crate. My pup HATES it of course, he has confinment issues and a working need to keep me in sight at all times. :D kinda cute, kinda a pain in the butt
I feed him in there, and give him KONG toys filled with 'yummies' to play with in there. Only when I have to leave the house do I close the door to it. He screams blue murder, but, at least I know he's not chewing wires, or doorways , etc,,etc,,etc It does take up a good portion of living room real estate, but, it works for me. And although he doesn't like it, I know I could never put him in a wire box style crate. he would kill himself trying to get out!
I can post a pic of the setup if anyone is interested....jsut let me know

heidiho
March 11th, 2005, 01:41 PM
I would love to see it

wjranch
March 11th, 2005, 01:53 PM
Here it is. :D

heidiho
March 11th, 2005, 02:00 PM
My neighbors that have rat terrier and min pin have the same thing,they ;love it,that is a good idea...

Shamrock
March 11th, 2005, 02:15 PM
I have read this thread with great interest.
I too had never heard of dog crates until more recent times, and never needing one, didnt know a thing about the the "pros and cons".
My son and daughter-in-law's new puppy is coming tomorrow( mini-doxie) and the question of getting a crate is still "out there".
As she's at home full time, she thought she may not need this, I tend to agree. But - she can assess how things are going once the puppy is here.

She asked me this, though - to which I have no idea.
Would a mesh play-pen work as a crate for a tiny dog such as this?
Or would this not be suitable.. possibly chewed?

wjranch
March 11th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Shamrock-
I wouldn't worry about the chewing, I would worry about the housebreaking though......too much space in the kennel will encourage the pup to use a corner for sleeping in, and a corner for bathroom. Not the best way to housetrain....... with that said....
partition the pen and all should be fine........ with the exception that there is no door for the dog to go in on her own. Not the best setup, If you crate your puppy, you will eventually want to be able to say "go to bed" and the dog goes in the crate on her own.. that might be something to think about also.

They may think twice about the crate after they wake up to a few 'accidents' on the floor in the morning. :) It really is a god send when it comes to housebreaking a young puppy.

Good luck with the new babe :D mini doxie?? too flippin' cute :D

meowzart
March 11th, 2005, 02:53 PM
Instead of the crate I use an 8' round exercise pen

That's a great idea too. Gosh I wouldn't crate an animal with confinement issues - that WOULD be cruel. Good for you for finding an alternative.

The other thing about chewing is the safety thing - my gosh do you know how much damage it could do to an animal to ingest baseboards, paint, couch parts - homework paper and maybe staples, socks, underwear...they could die, or need (very expensive) surgery.

IF you have a chewer - and not all dogs are so those with dogs that don't chew won't 'get this' - a crate or pen can keep them safe.

Shamrock - I think a mesh play pen could be trouble if you have a chewer...just be careful with that.

Prin
March 11th, 2005, 04:31 PM
Why would you want to crate an older adopted dog ?? :confused:
They should already be over the chewing stage.........I don't see the point, in crating an older dog.

I meant older like 6 months and still chewing or a year and still chewing...

melanie
March 11th, 2005, 05:20 PM
thank you everyone, what an informed and openly (nicely sorta) debated topic, it thirlls me to bits as this is why i love this place, we can talk it out and educate :grouphug: and im spit spot tickled pink that no one got cranky with me, luv yas.

ok, now i do to an extent understand yoru reasons for crating, toileting etc. i am now wondering what the average home on north US is like, do you ahve yards or is it mainly small spaces?? just wondering. but im still not much of a fan ofthe method, jsut because i never heard of it and i have a lovely dog so i really think you can train without it, but its the ndividual i suppose.


now a bit of background, i am australian, its near impossible to rent apartments here with a dog, it is mainly houses with yards you get. so i always have a yard. now charlie girl did chew when she wa a pup (only heard of crates in past 2 yrs, she is now 9yo). but it was strictly related to seperation anxiety and my inexperience with dogs, very inexperienced. but we sorted that out by the time she was 4mths and she has chewed only once or twice since, and they were all food related, ie they contained food so she had a go.

in my world a dog is equal, they earn that right just by being alive, that is the right of all animals on this earth, just because some of those animals can hold and fire guns does not diminish the rights of other animals, i live by this belief. .charlie is a central member to my family, she is a loved family member with all rights of the rest of us. my family would never work without her, i love her too much. in my house you either respect her as an equal member or you are not welcome in the house. i honestly am so close and inlove with her that she makes my world right, i cant live without my baba girl, we are two spirits that were meant to be. and she is treated with all the kindness that such a member deserves, i sigh like a young lover when i look into her eyes, i am truly spell bound by the undying love of my beloved girl. my human family, sisters etc treat her this way as well, she is their family, they openly love her too. it just how we treat our life companions is all.

so for those reason she can do as she pleases, but she is in no way arrogant or without manners and i am without a doubt top dog in this pack. she has exceptional manners of which i am very proud, i do not tolerate friends or family members without manners, her manners are so good that we hitchhiked together for years when she was a pup, and without a problem, in fact her manners are better than mine. she has also been in many share houses, with other animals of all shapes and sizes too, and ehr manners prevail. she cna walk off lead without even considering ever mving away from her beloved human and she fulfills all or most of my requests in any environment. she recently won at a dog show and had a great time socialising with all, not a hair flew that day. so there is no real question of non crated dogs having poor manners its jsut training, and what i said before can be repeated for the dogs i know also, i have never physically met a crate trained dog or an owner who uses the technique, so us aussie must be doing something right.

charlie hangs out basically. she has a huge yard and house, the door is open at all times when a human is home and she loves her yard, she will be out there by choice half the day sniffing and chasing the skinks (tiny lizards, she has never caught one, too slow :D ). she does not destroy anythign, she is safe in our well fenced yard and she has a huge sheltered area with beds and toys and everythnig else, she is a chilled out girl. and is cool anywhere, she is happy to hang in another persons yard anyday, she loves her auties the best :D and she has done this since a babe, i think it comes down to what you teach them, dogs are jsut so smart and canbe taught to be happy in so many situations, it comes down to yourwn planning perhaps, what you do and what best suits your environment.

as far as robbers and fires go, when my girl is loose she is accessible by anyone who would be trying to rescue her if they called her, dogs are smart, but she likes to be in the yard when im out so she could escape easier. robbers, well if someone wants to rob us i will give them all our stuff as a prize, my girl loves to protect her things and her home so if someone smashed in a window i wish them the best of luck, i have seen her in action, and if were together, well oh boy.

so those factors i have considered yes.

but i can see how such a tool could be useful, but also could be extensivly abused. but then that is the same for all dog tools and methods, they can be great or horrific, jsut depends whos using it..

thank you lovely ppl, great chatting to you all. :thumbs up :D

topaz_n29
March 11th, 2005, 05:42 PM
I put my 9 week shih Tzu in a crate for the nite..to sleep..he is right by my bed..as soon as he sees me put my pj's on he goes in.
When i go out which is 3x a week..for 2 and 1/2 hours..hi is in the compartment bathroom..board up and crate in there (left open)..his toys and paper and water.He is doing just fine..we have 3 other dogs, he cant see them but can hear them..i nite crated all my dogs..for the nite..even my shep/rottie..till they were completely trained..so i think ..yes it is a matter of choice. My shep. now sleeps in bed w/me lol..80 lbs. of him and the Shih will too..after his training is complete. I am retired..but i go out the 3x aweek for my workout. Hubby is also retired..but does work now and then.
This my thoughts and input. Thx for listening..Top. :grouphug:

CyberKitten
March 11th, 2005, 11:46 PM
Wow Mel, that post was so long I forget the question. :D Kidding! I sometimes go off on tangents myself, lol

Most of us live in Canada I think but there is not much difference in archirtecture between the two countries - except that in the north, a home must be really sturdy and have lots of insulation to witstand the cold. (I have a brick house so that works for me - now I need new windows one of these days, lol). Homes in Florida where my parents winter tend to be well made but a/c is more of a concern and constructing for hurricane season comes into play. There are many regional variation though - the adobes in states like NM (seems to me there is someone here from AZ or NM?) for example.

I have a large yard and a swimming pool which would be fine for a dog and you should see the hair that ends up in the strainer after my brother's chocloate lab has jumped in the pool. :( I don't think YY will be jumping in though, lol (and she is an indoor cat, will be out on a leash only!) I live in a subdivision where most people have fairly large homes (they have become more in vogue in the last decade) and much property.

The cities in the Maritimes where I live have parks that allow dogs and their walkers but it is not unusual to see neighbours walking their dogs on the sidewalk. It is a pet friendly neighbourhood for the most part but everyone has lots of space too.

Can I ask what a "share house" is (a rooming house?) - like a dorm. I went to Australia 3 yrs ago (seems like last yr) to give a lecture at the Univ of Western Au and no one used that term there or at least I never heard it. Or I heard it and it did not register.

Hope this long windedc reply sort of answers your query!

mona_b
March 12th, 2005, 01:09 AM
:thumbs up

You must have grown up in the Dark Ages, like I did.

Yup..... :D

No one is getting hissy here.We are just voicing(typing) our opinions.It has nothing to do with the I'm right your wrong thing.

Like I have said over and over again,I have nothing against crating.What I have a problem with is having a young puppy crated ALL day without being let out to get some exercise,pee breaks and even fed.Young puppies should be fed 2-3xs a day.Not once.And there is no way say an 8 week old puppy can hold it in for 8 hours.

Prin
March 12th, 2005, 01:53 AM
I believe somewhat what melanie said about the doggie being equal.

When I was very little (living in the laurentians), we inherited a newfie and my dad, being a single dad, couldn't be watching us all the time so he would put the newf in there with us (or out there with us) and we'd play alone and the newf would protect us. Once she killed a stray dog that came onto our property and approached us (I was too young to remember). My whole life, my dad travelled and we had dogs to take care of us. They even protected us from our babysitters. I'm sure that people feel like their dog is part of the family whether they crate or not, but the way I grew up my dogs were my brothers and sisters. They were my parents and my responsibility. My dad still calls his dog my brother. That's just how I grew up and that is why my dad got us dogs. He might not have treated them great sometimes but he wasn't there 90% of the time. And that 90% was when I grew to respect dogs and learned their motivations, needs and desires.

Yes, in a pack, there are submissive ones and dominant ones but everyone is entitled to have an equally good, happy life. I believe that since I chose to have these doggies, it is my responsibility to have no doubt that I gave them a home that is better than anybody else who might have gone to the SPCA that day or the people who gave them up in the first place.

The thing is I have seen dogs wandering around the house. I have taped them playing together when I am not home. I can't imagine them not having that.

I know you all crate just when they are puppies-- for me that stage is part of who they are and who they are becoming and I wait for a time in my life or in my year that I am free to be there to take care of them and work with them, not just because of the safety and the chewing and all that but because I want to see it. I want to see my baby learn and my baby grow into more complex emotions and be curious. These are probably the only kids I will ever have and their childhood is so short...

(Sorry if this was rambly... :o )

amber416
March 12th, 2005, 02:28 AM
I read through all of the posts in this thread and it seems like Prin was taking a lot of heat for simply starting a debate. I also didn't see anyone saying that either using or not using a crate was the right or wrong thing to do. Something I had posted in another thread in response to an expressed opinion of Prin's was included in the first entry in this thread and in it I referred to a family that crates their lab eight hours during the day while they are at work and then again at night while they are sleeping. I dogsit for them a few times a year and I notice that he also appears to "like" his crate. He enters it whenever we come back in from a walk or playing in the yard and I have heard this behavior mentioned in this thread a few times. Somehow I never interpreted it as liking it, however, it always seemed kind of....i don't know, sad to me. More out of obedience and habbit then a love for his crate. I have also heard people say that sitting in a crate all day is a lot better than many dogs have it. While this may be true, I find myself a little weary of that reasoning. Just because something is relatively better doesn't make it right or desireable. I worked in a vet clinic for a few years and saw a lot of negative effects of crating, ranging from foot injuries to horror stories of dogs strangling themselves in desperate attempts to free themselves from their cages. I was glad when Prin started this thread as I was hoping to learn the positive aspects of crate training and what exactly responsible crate training entails (how often a crate should be used, the purposes, how the dogs are weaned off of the crate, so to speak, excetera). I hope to have a dog of my own at some point and I'm not sure if I will ever use a crate but i appreciate everyone sharing their opinions, whether for or against crating, so i can one day make a well-informed decision.

mona_b
March 12th, 2005, 02:40 AM
Prin,amber,I'm speechless.

Words from the heart.Very touching. :)

It actually made me forget the rotten afternoon shift I had at work.Mind you I should be used to getting spit on,peed on,being called names,dealing with the all around bad people.

Prin
March 12th, 2005, 03:03 AM
:) doggies, the original "nannycam" :)

I just reread my post (to see what I had gotten myself into this time)and this came to mind...

Lucky Rescue
March 12th, 2005, 11:31 AM
Just because something is relatively better doesn't make it right or desireable

Exactly!!
I could stick my dog in a crate night and day and tell myself, "Well, it's better than being fought in a pit, or beaten to death, or tied outside 24/7."

That's not the point. I brought this dog, who had no choices, into my home and I am obligated to give her the best life I can.

And yes, many dog will voluntarily enter a crate. There are some dogs who have known nothing else who are scared to leave it. Doesn't mean it's a good thing. We all cling to what we know even if it's not the best thing for us.

Crate training is fine. Crate living is inhumane.

Mind you I should be used to getting spit on,peed on,being called names,dealing with the all around bad people.

Where the heck do you work? :eek:

heidiho
March 12th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Prin,if u can afford 100.00 shoes,then i wouldnt worry about my sofa or stuff getting chewed either,but i dont buy 100.00 shoes,nor can i buy new sofas all the time,do u work???Do u have a rich man??/Or are u retired???? No crating should not be used for punishment,it should be used for exactly what it was intended for,help in training....

Prin
March 12th, 2005, 12:45 PM
Actually I am a full time university student and I am not rich at all. I currently live in a 2 1/2 apt with my two big doggies and my man. I believe if a woman has a good pair of running shoes, she's set. I mean how many pairs of shoes do you need? Black closed sandal, black strappy sandal, black dress shoe, black heel, brown sandal, brown closed sandal, white sandal, indoor running shoes, outdoor running shoes, dog park boots, dressy boots.... Quite a selection for Furrie to choose from. The most I ever had was 4 pairs and the doggy got 2 (one was $125- most expensive shoes I ever had). From then on, I just wore whatever matched the shoes I had left.

Lucky Rescue
March 12th, 2005, 01:49 PM
My dog chewed a few things after I got her - the strap of a new purse, one shoe, a new pair of glasses and a few other things. I blamed myself for leaving things lying around and tried not to do that anymore.

One of my kittens broke something precious to me, among other things. But that's life when you have pets.

I wonder who would condone leaving a cat in a carrycase all day?

mona_b
March 12th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Where the heck do you work? :eek:


I'll give you a hint...I put bad people in jail...... :D

melanie
March 13th, 2005, 04:06 PM
cyberkitten, if you ever come over here again to lecture please oh oplease let us know, i would love to attend a lecture given by you, i would even travel to WA to see it (take a couple of days to get there) :D

a share house- in american tv i see the word room mate used, its like that but you have your own room in a house that a group of people rent, one person usually holds the lease and rents to the others (with a dog i always hold the lease, more control etc). we have had a huge variety, i once lived with 7 cats, another dog and charlie, i have also lived with staffies and other breeds. its a good way to rent with an animal and much cheaper for the $$$rent. but i havent shared in years, too much drama, hard to get ppl to respect your pets and to many requriements to be flexible doing that, hey im a cancer, i jsut cant be that flexible.. :D