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regarding free

sweatpea
March 9th, 2005, 09:03 AM
Hello everyone I am new here and have been reading the threads and wanted to make a comment on the discussions about free. I agree with what you are saying in the terms of that some folks are not good folks to have pets free or payed. I have seen cases of folks who have payed and not payed for their pet and treated it poorly.
On the other hand I have seen wonderful folks who have gotten their pet for free or for a small adopotion fee and have loved their pet.
We got our last dog for a small adopotion fee ($50.00 to be honest) and that pet became a member of our family.
Our children loved her dearly as did we all. She went everywere with us. She, and I quote my children, was their best freind and they called her their sister. They are young ( my children).
When our pet passed away we were all devestated and had a funeral for her. Now almost a year and a half later our 6 yr old still cries for her and our 9 yr oldwill cry and still misses her terribly ,as we all do. She was not "just" our pet she was our family.
We are currently looking for a new family member ( a shih tzu ) and I know with out a doubt that this new family member will be as loved and as much a part of our family as any other memeber.
As for paying the cost that some people want ($800. or higher in some places) No I cant afford that. We are a one income family. Does that mean we cant or wont love and take care of our pet?
No.
We always take our pets to the vet and do what ever needs to be done to make sure they are well taken care of , healthy and loved.
I just wanted to say that not all folks that are looking for an addition to their family for free or low cost are unable to care proberly for them.
Thanks for your time
Sincerly Sweatpea

wjranch
March 9th, 2005, 09:15 AM
God bless you for being a good, responsible pet keeper :D

The reason people are so set against 'free to good home' ads is that the risk of the pup/kitten/rabbit/rat/guinea pig...etc..etc becoming food for a local Boa or bait for a dog fighting ring is too great. If even one ends up in that situation, that is one too many!

There are folks out there (called Bunchers) who will scoop up 'free pets' and even occasionally 'left alone in the yard pets' to be sold to medical research companies. They don't show up on your doorstep with a tattoo on their forehead proclaiming their intentions! They 'claim' to be loving, responsible pet seekers.... sadly they aren't. :(

We realize there ARE people who truly just want a family pet and either can't afford a purebred from a breeder, or just prefer a mutt :D These people are wonderful...but again they do not show up with a tattoo that proclaims they are honest.

I might suggest you select the breed your most interested in, interview a few breeders, occasionally they have a pup or older dog that has been returned and in need of a good home...they may bring their prices down to meet your needs, OR set up a payment plan for you :) If it means the dog is in a good home, they might do this.... Good Luck with your search :thumbs up

sammiec
March 9th, 2005, 09:18 AM
Hi Sweatpea....welcome.

Have you had a chance to view the "Free to a good home" sticky ? Here it is: FREE (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=12884)

No one here can deny that there are caring and loving people that will take in animals that are "free to a good home". There are some. BUT as you can see in the thread that I shared above there are others that will take free animals for research facilities, feeding other animals, etc. It does happen.
By asking for an adoption fee for an animal that is a way of weeding out those that could use the animal for reasons other then a companion and a friend. No one here has ever said that ALL people who get a free animal are hateful and mean and going to use that animal for the reasons in that thread.

Our beloved dog was rescued from a shelter, the adoption fee was $150. Even $50 can be a respectable adoption fee should the person getting rid of the animal actually care to find a great forever home for the animal.

But some - NOT ALL - people are looking for a free animal because they think of them as disposable. Why would they pay 2000 for a surgery when they got the dog for free... that's the point that we're trying to make. Some people unfortunately have that thought about animals.

The sticky is meant to be information for those hoping to adopt out their animals. Many people don't understand what can happen shold their pet fall into the wrong hands. It not stating that everyone getting a free animal is a monster.

MIA
March 17th, 2005, 07:22 PM
I got both my MinPins free! Now I don't know what you call free, one of them did about $3000.00 worth of damage in the first month we had him!!! LOL

I DO think people can give away thier animals, the ticket is screening the new home and making sure they are good people. Bad people do have money!!!! It's also imperative that the animal be fixed PRIOR to going to a new home! That is one way to deter bad people. :queen:

Lucky Rescue
March 17th, 2005, 08:21 PM
the ticket is screening the new home and making sure they are good people. Bad people do have money!!!! It's also imperative that the animal be fixed PRIOR to going to a new home! That is one way to deter bad people.

"Bunchers" collecting animals to sell to laboratories often go to a lot of trouble to appear to be "good people", even bringing kids and wives to collect the animal.

Spaying and neutering will NOT deter them since laboratories dont' require intact animals, nor will it deter people looking for "free" reptile food, in the form of unwanted rabbits, rodents or even kittens being given away.

Screening AND an adoption fee helps to increase the chances of choosing the right home, and why wouldn't someone want to do anything and everything possible to protect his/her pet?

MIA
March 17th, 2005, 08:38 PM
I wasn't saying people shouldn't ask for a fee but I am saying it can be done, if done properly.

If you screen a home the way rescue does you have a pretty good chance of finding a good home, money or no money.

We don't have the lab issue here that I know of, haven't heard of it here so it's less likely to happen.

MegShawnMom
March 18th, 2005, 09:21 AM
Does anybody know what a lab will pay for a dog?
I know that our local shelter(the sign is in the front room) is obligated to give them to the labs for free,it's in the Ontario Law.

LL1
March 18th, 2005, 10:47 AM
Last I recall hearing shelters get $3 per cat and $6 per dog that they send to research.

Britishvixen21
March 18th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Are you serious? what shelters are these? I didnt know that, that still went on in this day and age. I guess we know where all the pit bulls will go.

MegShawnMom
March 18th, 2005, 02:31 PM
research labs do not want pit bulls ,they consider them to dangeous to handle,they prefer beagles and more gentle med size dogs. I checked our shelter and they said they won't give pitties to research,they would be killed .

Lucky Rescue
March 18th, 2005, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by MegShawnMom
Labs/research facilities do not take pitties/rotti, they are to unpredictable and potentially dangerous to the workers.they prefer beagles and med size animals with a gentle nature.

Again, pitties are tough animals for anybody to control,thats' why research won't take them

You keep making these kinds of statements as though they are fact, yet refused to name your source OR state what your personal experience with pit bulls and rottweilers is. Can you tell us now?

research labs do not want pit bulls ,they consider them to dangeous to handle,

So you are saying that your source of all these erroneous and false statements is laboratory researchers?? Because someone experiments on animals does NOT mean they are breed knowledgeable in any way.

All of the above is wrong. Please do not spread myths and rumours that have NO basis in fact whatsoever.

MegShawnMom
March 18th, 2005, 03:20 PM
Sounds like your taunting me Lucy, I hope I didn't hit a nerve with you.
You accuse me of making false statements,be careful.
My simple source is animal control, I phone 3 and they said that they do not send pit bulls to research.When the law comes into effect they hope to ship most of them out to Quebec where there are no laws.
I do not talk to research labs for their info.
Myth and rumour, no.

LL1
March 18th, 2005, 04:15 PM
That's not the law,the lab must pay them for the animals.
Does anybody know what a lab will pay for a dog?
I know that our local shelter(the sign is in the front room) is obligated to give them to the labs for free,it's in the Ontario Law.

LL1
March 18th, 2005, 04:19 PM
The labs chose what they take.You'd have to call them and ask what they would take.Most shelters do not admit they allow any animals to go for research.

You accuse me of making false statements,be careful.
My simple source is animal control, I phone 3 and they said that they do not send pit bulls to research.When the law comes into effect they hope to ship most of them out to Quebec where there are no laws.
I do not talk to research labs for their info.
Myth and rumour, no.

CyberKitten
March 18th, 2005, 04:53 PM
There are many jurisdictions now that have legislation forbidding pounds to give cats and dogs to labs. Alas, as you noted, Ontario is not among them. However, a fee of at least $25 should keep away bouchers and those looking for "free" food for their reptiles and other large animals.

Lucky Rescue
March 18th, 2005, 07:45 PM
You accuse me of making false statements,be careful

Merely asking for substantiation of your claims is an accusation or "taunting"? Why so defensive? I should be careful? In what way?

And yes your statements are misguided, inaccurate and false. They have no basis in fact. I am NOT questioning your claims that research labs wont' take them, but on comments as to temperament. By listening to heresay and/or the media, and labelling two entire breeds as "hard to control, unpredictable and potentially dangerous" you are perpetuating damaging myths and possibly influencing people who read this nonsense and who are looking for information.

You feel justified to say this after phoning 3 ACs?? Is that the sum total of your breed knowledge?

I take it you are pro-BSL? You must be, using those kinds of terms to describe an animal. This is a PET board, and anyone harbouring hatred or bias for a species or breed is in the wrong place.

For the third time, what is your personal experience with these breeds (or with any dogs at all) that you feel confident making these kind of blanket and breed specific statements??

MegShawnMom
March 19th, 2005, 12:21 AM
You have accused me of being pro BSL.
I don't understand you and why you would say such a terrible thing. I make a statement-you don't agree with and all of a sudden you start to attack me.
If you read what I say carefully I am saying that labs don't want this breed, they want dogs like beagles because in their opinion they are easier to handle.
You asked me earlier on another thread if I have donated any money to the fund,Yes ,I have and yes I do know Clayton Ruby and he is the right man to take this fight

Lucky Rescue
March 19th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Anyone who condemns two breeds as ""hard to control, unpredictable and potentially dangerous" on hearsay, then yes, I think anyone would conclude that person is pro-BSL, as these are the very terms that pro-BSL people use to justify their stance.

In your original comments on the other thread, you stated no source and put forth this description as your opinion. So I really wonder: Why would YOU donate anything to help dogs who you feel are "dangerous" etc? :confused:

I respectfully suggest you get some hands-on experience with these breeds, or consult with people who deal with these breeds on a regular basis (and NO, I don't mean AC staff who hardly see any animal at it's best.) and until then please desist aiding and abetting hatred and hysterical media hype.
Does that seem reasonable?

Thank you.

deerclan
March 19th, 2005, 07:12 PM
hi ladies and gents i noticed when reading this thread there seemed to me that not everyone realy knows what the Animals for Research Act really says so here is a link to that,Sorry if i crashed your thread or got off topic

http://192.75.156.68/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90a22_e.htm

Prin
March 19th, 2005, 10:14 PM
I take it you are pro-BSL? You must be, using those kinds of terms to describe an animal. This is a PET board, and anyone harbouring hatred or bias for a species or breed is in the wrong place.

Uh oh... I have extreme hatred (probably or certainly based on fear) for every species of spider...


(joking, does this lighten up the board a bit?)

Prin
March 19th, 2005, 10:18 PM
By the way, I know a lung lab in Montreal that only takes viscious, unadoptable dogs for it's research. Whether pits and rotties are viscious, that's not my call (I say NO,) but if you're saying that labs don't take dogs that are hard to handle, that is really not true.

Labs that take beagles only are probably under size restrictions (cage-wise) or they have to kill a huge load and the beagle cadavers don't take up a lot of room...

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 11:15 AM
Lucky, lets try this again. What breed of dogs would you now want to have to handle when its very upset about its surrounding and what is being done to it.
Yes, all breeds would be hard to handle,but whick would be difficult,considering the size and weight and power.
This is all I'am saying,that lab workers have to handle all types of dogs-depending on the research-they would choose not to handle pitts,rottis, and some other breeds.
Unfortunately the vet colleges do have to work on these breeds for teaching .

The new law will lay the foundation for other breeds being banned,rottis will be next.It is a bad law and needs to be taken out.We were one of the first people to support hiring Clayton Ruby and donating at that time.
Yes, I do know the breeds well and have had them in my life over the years

You will find that when the law comes into effect tha many h.s. and shelters will be trying to send their pitties out to Quebec, I hope that people concerned about the breed will start a pitty rescue there.Would you consider starting one or helpiing somebody to do this-I'an not being snippy ,I'am being sincere.

Lucky Rescue
March 20th, 2005, 03:29 PM
This is all I'am saying,that lab workers have to handle all types of dogs-depending on the research-they would choose not to handle pitts,rottis, and some other breeds.

That's not what you said, but oh, well...

As for researchers not taking this breed, obviously some do. Here's one of those uncontrollable dangerous pit bulls who spent YEARS being experiemented on, until she was saved and rehomed.
Although she panics greatly at the vet, which is understandable, she is sweet and gentle and never has she lifted a lip to anyone and she is 10 years old.

LL1
March 20th, 2005, 03:30 PM
I am surprised at the bias from a member of the Rottie anti-BSL list towards Rotties and Pits.The ACs in your area do not admit to selling for research as far as I recall from the AA list,so how would they be in a position to comment?Good luck on getting real info,AA would be the ones to ask,not pounds.

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 03:44 PM
Animal Alliance gets their information from the municipalites with pounds.
Our pound openly has a letter of statement on the wall.
I'am offended by you using 'bias' to describle me,unfair and untrue.
We can waste our time by showing pics of all the dogs that are being used for experiments, ( I can also show small breed dogs that are use)
Would that prove anything ,no.
Bottom line, research of all kinds including vet colleges use dogs/cats/mice/even fruitflies .
Did you know that France wants to change the law(EC) so they can use animals for research in the cosmetic industry.
This thread has turned ugly and personnal,to bad

Lucky Rescue
March 20th, 2005, 04:02 PM
We can waste our time by showing pics of all the dogs that are being used for experiments, ( I can also show small breed dogs that are use)
Would that prove anything ,no.

You don't feel that a picture of a pit bull who was used in experimentation proves that researchers do use them? I would call that pretty positive proof.

Showing other breeds would prove nothing. I never said they are not used and neither did anyone else. You are the one contesting that pit bulls are used, right? :confused:

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Lucky, lets try again.
I never said they NEVER use pitties.
Only they prefer other breeds.
My wording may not be the same, my thoughts are.
I don't understand why you are nitpicking
Try and look at the overall big picture

LL1
March 20th, 2005, 04:42 PM
I know where AA gets their info and how hard it is to get.I would trust a pound,they don't admit to doing it even when they do.Your pounds do not admit to it,and I will check my list,I don't think they have done it.

It's unfortunate your offended.Re-read your own words.Rotttie and Pit folks I am sure are offended with how you have disparaged their breeds,and painted them all with one biased brush.I have not seen you describe either breed like that on the BSL list.It's this kind of ignorance and bias that led to the ban.It's shameful.

Animal Alliance gets their information from the municipalites with pounds.
Our pound openly has a letter of statement on the wall.
I'am offended by you using 'bias' to describle me,unfair and untrue.
This thread has turned ugly and personnal,to bad

Lucky Rescue
March 20th, 2005, 08:07 PM
"Nitpicking"? Please carefully re-read your very own words that you presented as statements of fact. These are direct quotes. I made nothing up.

Originally Posted by MegShawnMom
Labs/research facilities do not take pitties/rotti, they are to unpredictable and potentially dangerous to the workers.they prefer beagles and med size animals with a gentle nature.

Again, pitties are tough animals for anybody to control,thats' why research won't take them

research labs do not want pit bulls ,they consider them to dangeous to handle

Obviously you have no intention of standing behind your words or revealing what your experience is with these breeds. I hazard a guess that the answer is "none".

And "mid sized" breeds (like border collies or many terriers) are not necessarily docile. Anyone who thinks they are is just as misguided and misinformed as someone who paints an entire breed with one brush and parrots media hype.

I'm done with this.

MegShawnMom
March 20th, 2005, 09:42 PM
It's unfortunate that you have 'labelled me',but what can one expect.
Just so you know, I gave a lecture in 1999 at the university on animal cruelty/research, over 40 students/pros came out.What was to be 1 1/2 turned into a 3 hr lecture/debate.I took 2 dogs,1 cat and a mouse with me.Guess what one of the dogs were.
Thats all I'am going to say as well, thanks for judging me.

LL1
March 21st, 2005, 11:06 AM
You were not labelled or judged.It was your own words,which Lucky posted,that say it all.

lma1524
September 11th, 2006, 01:17 PM
People are the problem when it comes to animal aggression such as many men think having an aggressive breed of dog makes them more of a man.

Not all that respond to free to good home ads are out to use the animal for bait, research or reptile food etc., etc. However, we are aware that many people get a pet for all the wrong reasons and that there are those out there that will take a free animal for personal gain or money.

I believe the majority of people that have pets love them and treat them well, it is the sad few that have no humanity or compassion in their lives for pain and suffering that allows them to cause pain and suffering to those who cannot speak for themselves.

No animal comes with a guarantee and a small donation is showing good faith in that you are serious about owning a pet. I have been corresponding with a 16 year old girl who's boyfriend has a pit bull, she wants one and when applying to the Humane Societies and rescue groups she was turned down and not without good reason. However, now her boyfriends parents have told her that they will lie for her in order for her to get a pit bull. She's in school and lives in an apartment. This mentallity and lack of judgement will likely show up later when she has to abandon the dog she wants. That another's parents would lie for her in order for her to get such a dog is unfathomable.

Educating people that it's not good giving animals away for free is the best answer. Many people simply don't realize there are creeps out there who have no interest in the animal as a pet and then live to regret giving it away as thousands of stories tell us. If everyone would charge a minimal fee, check out the living arrangement, get a vets reference and follow up on the animals care and condition and if everyone would have their pets fixed, puppy mills were banned and you had to take the pet with you to get a new licence, perhaps we could keep an eye on a small percentage of those that might otherwise end up abused.

It's no good being hostile about subjects, it appears everyone has kindness at heart but the manner of expressing those feelings has caused some nasty come backs on these threads despite all of them basically saying the same thing.

We all want what's best for our animals. Hostility against each other works against this goal. It is the basis of many a war.

As for breed specific bans all animals have the ability to bite for one reason or another. Many have had any characteristic of the original breed taken away by indiscriminate breeding and inbreeding by people out to make a few dollars. These people who let their animals have litter after litter are no better than the mills that mass produce animals for resale. Many people buy a pet because they like how it looks, or the colour of it or its eyes, they want a big dog because they think they look silly with a smaller breed among their peers.

Until we humans are educated enough and well mannered enough to see each others point of view even on pages such as these, then there is little hope for the animals that rely on us to show them the way to behave. Hostility frequently doesn't stop with the pet and hence the reason for Children's Aid and the police being brought in frequently now in cases of animal abuse, it often goes a lot further than that where the children of the home are also suffering.

Education and compromise would go a long way to making earth a better place for all of us and our animal friends. These pages are meant to be pleasant points of view, not radical interpretation that gets everyone wound up. I know some people feel passionately that their beliefs are true but it's the other person's point of view and the next person and so on that makes us unique as human beings after all. If we were all of the same views, the world would be an extremely dull place.

I wish everyone a nice day. Linda Toronto

lma1524
September 11th, 2006, 01:54 PM
Problem Provinces

Alberta
The Universities Act in Alberta forbids laboratories from purchasing dogs for research, but requires pounds to make all unclaimed dogs available to facilities of medicine upon request. However, Calgary Animal Control stopped sending their pound animals to research a number of years ago. In January 2000, staff from the University of Alberta announced that they will no longer take animals from the pound for research because of the risk of experimenting on someone’s companion animal.

Many mistaken for strays: At least 12 pets a year rescued from U of A lab (29-Jan-00)

Manitoba
Pound seizure is not a legal requirement in Manitoba. However, until very recently, the City of Winnipeg maintained a voluntary contract with the University of Manitoba to sell as many as 300 dogs per year from its municipal pound to the University for research. However, as a result of effective campaigning by Animal Alliance and our affiliate, Environment Voters, Winnipeg was forced to terminate its contract with the University and put an end to pound seizure in the city.

Brief to Winnipeg City Councillors
[164K Acrobat PDF]

City ends lab-dog deal (14-Nov-02)

Ontario
The Ontario Animals for Research Act requires pounds to relinquish dogs and cats they have held for more than three days if requisitioned by a registered research facility. This is hardly enough time to find a new home for these animals, or even for someone to find a well-loved, but lost family companion. The Animals for Research Act was created to ensure a cheap source of animals for experimentation, and stipulates that laboratories pay only $6 per dog and $2 per cat. In contrast, a person wanting to adopt one of these animals as a companion could be required to pay up to $150 for a dog and $80 for a cat. At least 10 pounds in Ontario continue to provide animals for experimentation; however, humane societies and shelters affiliated with the Ontario SPCA will not supply animals to laboratories, despite the legislation.

Owner demands answers after dog disappears (31-Oct-01)

Beloved pet apparently sent for research (29-Oct-01)

Quebec
Although pounds and animal shelters in Quebec are under no obligation to surrender dogs and cats to research labs, that hasn’t stopped Quebec from becoming the largest unregulated supplier of pound-source animals for research in Canada. Animal Alliance has begun an aggressive campaign, urging the Quebec government to implement an emergency moratorium on the sale of lost and homeless dogs and cats for research purposes in order to provide immediate protection for the companion animals of Quebec citizens.

Brief to the Government of Quebec
[100K Acrobat PDF]

Lettre adressée au gouvernement du Québec et aux membres de l’Assemblée nationale du Québec
[52K Acrobat PDF]

Of course, as with everything, there are those that will be sold into labs no matter what, "under the table" deals are not limited to merchandise. Bunchers don't just sell to research, they also supply animals for bait for dog fights and if a pit bull type breed they can make up to $200.00 to toss it in a ring. The millions of dollars involved in the illegal dog fights and gambling on it means that even paying $200.00 for a dog, is nothing to them, they make huge profits and don't care where the animal comes from. Even local Animal Services are wary and lot more strict than they used to be in letting an animal be adopted out.

Smaller "feeder" rodents, are often bought frozen for as little as a dollar a piece. So in a days work going through web sites and a higher cost being paid for live ones, some of these people can make quite a good living out of spending a day visiting all the free to good home pets in one area and then selling them to fights or research in high volumes.

I was talking to a woman recently who was delighted that a local teen had taken a "box full of kittens" off her hands. Some people just don't know. It's a pity that our media doesn't cover such issues and get the word out there about what goes on with unwanted pets. Perhaps if we were all a little more willing to write to our local papers on this issues, even our local MPP's, the word get out to those that simply don't know. Of course there will always be those that know but simply don't care, we will never be able to convince such people otherwise.

As for most rescue groups charging too much for animals. They have have paid the fee to get the animal out of the pound, paid to have it vetted, spayed or neutered, inoculations, have it fostered, fed it, groomed, micro chipped, even sent for it training. Not to forget the time, travel and related costs in saving the dog from being put down. They invest so much in an animal. Having rescue animals myself, not all have asked for a huge donation after visiting my home which is well equipped for my four legged friends and probably less equipped for my two legged ones.

In many cases people abandon animals because they can't afford the vet care nor can they afford to have it put to sleep. Rather leave them alone and terrified on a highway somewhere in the hope that someone will take them in and "save" them.

Perhaps a charity specifically for needy animal cases would be an answer, where those who come into bad times need a hand, can get help and their animals get the treatment they need. Perhaps with a stipulation that when their luck turns around they try to put back what they have taken out.

One of my dogs, horribly abused as a pup, was sponsored by an elderly couple who could no longer have a pet. I could have had them pay for his neutering but was able to do it myself but such people do exist, just not enough of them in any organized manner.

meb999
September 14th, 2006, 08:46 PM
This is a REALLY old thread!