Fatten me up??

Hi folks, I have a Dobermann puppy 7 mth male intact (staying that way)
I have kept him purposely lean during this time to allow his bones to grow without any added stresses. My vet reccommended this.
Here is my question...

I'm already feeding him 5-6 cups daily of Nutro Natural Large Breed, plus training treats (cookies and cheerios) What can I add to his diet that will 'pump up the groceries' for him in a fast way? He's hit his adolecent/gangly stage now and I am preparing to start his daily exercise in earnest. So he will be using up all available calories, he needs more...though adding much more at meal times I'm not real comfortable with as he's a breed that is prone to bloat problems...
So you see my dilemma??

Appreciate all input :)

Why will you not get him fixed? :confused:

No, I will not neuter him. He is a registered dobermann and will be shown to complete his Canadian Championship this year. He is one of the 'very few' dogs that should be kept intact. I will not breed him to just any bitch. And not until he's 18 months old minimum. I will ensure his offspring have homes before they are even bred and whelped, and will be responsible for them after that time as well. Any pup produced that finds itself in need of a new home will be returned either to myself, or the dam's owner to deal with.
Responsible breeders do not allow their dogs to end up in rescue or shelters. (if they are aware of it of course, you can't do something about things you're not informed of)

My Doberman was pretty thin until she was about 2 and is still developing, I don't think you want to add too much and just give the pup what he's supposed to have.

If you do breed please tattoo and chip your dogs so they can be traced back to you, that's a great way to ensure none of them ever end up in rescue.

Good luck :crazy:

6 cups of food a day for a 7 month old puppy?

What can I add to his diet that will 'pump up the groceries' for him in a fast way?

What's the rush? With proper diet and exercise, he'll fill out in proper time. As you say, he's in his gangly adolescent stage and you can't skip that.

He's completing his championship? How exciting.:) Congrats! What titles has he earned so far?

You must have some show pics? I'd love to see them! I'm a big Dobie fan!

Me tooo,beautiful dogs! Love to see some pics!!

I posted a couple pics today in the picture forum. He hasn't started his show career yet... this is way I'm in a bit of a hurry to get some 'meat' on his bones...
He is too lean for showring at this point. It's been great for his growth, but, now he needs more substance to compete.
He will (if he has the quality) finish his Cdn Ch before he out grows puppy group. :) And if he does real well there (ie: finishes quickly) I will take him through as an adult as well.

I am learning the 'show world' as I'm new to it. But, I will keep ya'll posted on how he does (beware! I may brag ;) )

Oh, you've never shown him, so you have no idea if he even IS show quality. Only one way to find out.;) Are you talking about conformation and/or performance?

I wish you luck. It's a long road to championship - tons of work and very expensive. Will you handle him yourself? Are you training him for show now?

Has any expert given you an opinion on his chances in the ring? Who told you he is too lean for showing? Judges certainly don't expect puppies to be as beefed up as 5 year old dogs. They are looking for bone and movement and conformation as a whole.

I'm sure all of us would be interested in following his career.:)

Oh, you've never shown him, so you have no idea if he even IS show quality. Only one way to find out.;) Are you talking about conformation and/or performance?

I wish you luck. It's a long road to championship - tons of work and very expensive. Will you handle him yourself? Are you training him for show now?

Has any expert given you an opinion on his chances in the ring? Who told you he is too lean for showing? Judges certainly don't expect puppies to be as beefed up as 5 year old dogs. They are looking for bone and movement and conformation as a whole.

I'm sure all of us would be interested in following his career.:)

Thank you LR!

I am interested on hearing more about this Champion myself.

I recently had him evaluated by one of Canada's top breeders (he is not from their lines). They not only spoke very well of him, they are willing to handle him for me. They're only suggestions to me was that he is lean mostly through his chest, to beef him up alittle and get him more socialized and used to being physically handled by strangers. I am seriously considering having them handle him, although I still plan to attend handling classes myself.

I currently have him enrolled in obedience (agility coming up next month) I do plan on 'finishing' him in conformation and then onward and upward to performance.
He does very well in obedience at this point, so we will either strive for advanced levels in that arena or I as I have recently developed an interest in Personal Protection training, that seems like a likely field for him also.

I do have high expectations for this dog, you've seen his pics? He should prove to be a serious contender in any arena we train for. But, of course, conformation is the first on our list. :)

*shaking head in dismay*

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/dustycouch.gif

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/dustycouch.gif

I do not normally open these due to the cookies but his was worth it.

LOL!

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage15/16.gifhttp://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage14/8.gif

*shaking head in dismay*


Pardon?? :confused: dismay of what?

Marko, I promised you I would try to be good.....

I have recently developed an interest in Personal Protection training, that seems like a likely field for him also.



You want to do what with this dog? Sorry I saw all the great things you are going to do with him, then saw this. I knew a guy that wanted to put his pittbull through this, needless to say we no longer talk. Hes the reason pitts have a bad name.

My budding interest in PP is not because I wish to have a mean dog. I'm sure there are folks out there who train a dog as Personal Protection that just want a mean dog. I am not one of them. I see Personal Protection as the next step after we've perfected Obedience. I have no interest whatsoever in creating a biting machine! He has a wonderful temperment, but, the breed needs to be put to work. He is somewhat driven and already 'protective', I would prefer to be in the position to control that rather then just handle it if it arises. I'm not so sure that makes sense to most folks, but, oh well. If I decide not to do PP then, I'll still probably put him into Utility Tracking or Search and Rescue. What I am most interested in is having a job for him to do.

Thanks for your comments, I truly understand the concerns you present. But, you can rest assured I will never put him in a situation where he is at risk either mentally or physically.

Beware! Personal protection training, can be a very very dangerous thing!!

it's kind of an oxymoron (sp?) isn't it ??
A dogs instinct is to protect it's family?? So why would you want to train it to do something it will already do if need be ?

wjranch,I cannot comment on PP,or any training for that matter..but your Dobie is absolutely stunning,beautiful!

You want to do what with this dog? Sorry I saw all the great things you are going to do with him, then saw this. I knew a guy that wanted to put his pittbull through this, needless to say we no longer talk. Hes the reason pitts have a bad name.

Ummm, thats pretty much what Doberman's were specifically bred for.

He's a beauty!!!!!

*shaking head in dismay*


Why shake your head in dismay?

It looks like a responsibly bred animal and a responsible loving owner.

He has a wonderful temperment, but, the breed needs to be put to work. He is somewhat driven and already 'protective', I would prefer to be in the position to control that rather then just handle it if it arises. I'm not so sure that makes sense to most folks, but, oh well. If I decide not to do PP then, I'll still probably put him into Utility Tracking or Search and Rescue. What I am most interested in is having a job for him to do.

Thanks for your comments, I truly understand the concerns you present. But, you can rest assured I will never put him in a situation where he is at risk either mentally or physically.


Have you considered Schutzhund or Ringsport?

This site is Dr. P's training site...the best online resource for this kinda stuff.

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/protect.htm

What I am most interested in is having a job for him to do.

Great!! Way too many people get working dogs, give them nothing to do, then dump them for barking, digging or behavior problems that arise from boredom.

Schutzhund would be great, if your dog has the personality for it. It's a fun game for dogs and of course Dobies are naturals at it and most love it.

PP is something else, and I wouldn't want to go there.

When you say he is "already protective" what do you mean? How does he react, and in what situation?

What level of obedience is he in? And what's his name??:)

Shutzhund is protection training as well as obedience and tracking.
He is protective like the breed should be. At his age he hasn't fully learned what is truly a threat and what's not. So he alerts on inappropriate things occasionally. We spend time walking about the nieghborhood and I help him learn to distinguish what's appropriate. He is not aggressive. He's learning alot of new stuff AND going through adolesence (sp?) So, it's a perfect time to teach him about friendly strangers, etc...
He is in advance puppy obedience right now, and top dog in his class :thumbs up If only I could maintain his attention for more then 3 seconds!! LOL
His name is Dillinger's Escape Plan (we picked it, not the breeder) We just call him Dillin (or p****rhead ;) )

Thanks Gazoo for the link, I've been reading through http://www.leerburg.com as well, tons of info too. I haven't done any reading on Ringsports yet, but, I plan to! Who knows? we might end up doing that!

[/I]) We just call him Dillin (or p**kerhead ;) )



Dillin is cute and i like his full name, but the nickname, not appropriate for this site at all. I hope you edit that out.

Sorry 'bout that... we call him that because he uses his cold wet nose like a woodpecker to poke you for kisses :) He's not a licky kinda pup.

I am curious also shakin head in dismay about what????????I think what u are doing is great,he is beautiful....

u train him to control himself. u train him to listen when u call him off. otherwise,u might try to get between the dog and the victim/attacker/whatever the situation and bad things happen

I get really confused sometimes people complain about people that do not have there dogs do anything,here is someone that is getting her dog involved in lots of things,[which they were bred to do]and now someone is shaki n there head,could you please expalin why, maybe i am way off base of why you are shakin head in dismay???????????Please do tell///////////

Thanks for the support and understanding everyone.
But, could we get back to what this thread was about? What can I add to my pups diet to add some fat to him? He is exercised and with nicer weather coming our way soon, he'll be getting much more. I feel what he's getting now is sufficient to maintain his growth(6 cups Nutro Natural daily)...but, at the rate he's been growing and his energy level, He will require more in order to put on some extra wieght.
Bear in mind he's a Dobe, so prone to bloat. I feel his 2 daily meals are large enough as it is. I have considered adding a midday meal, however, I do have another dog who is overwieght and her meals are restricted. Doesn't seem fair to add more to him when she can't have it too :( I'd like to add something to each of his meals that is high in fat.
Suggestions please??

I figured with all the rescue folks here someone would have a good suggestion for putting on wieght

I have considered adding a midday meal, however, I do have another dog who is overwieght and her meals are restricted. Doesn't seem fair to add more to him when she can't have it too :( I'd like to add something to each of his meals that is high in fat.
Suggestions please??




Maybe some elements from A BARF diet or a high energy natural food?

figured with all the rescue folks here someone would have a good suggestion for putting on wieght

YEs, we do, but the animals we need to put weight on are usually in a state of emaciation and malnutrition due to starvation, and not healthy young animals.

I'd like to add something to each of his meals that is high in fat.


Feeding food high in fat is NOT a good way to add bulk and would be very unhealthy for him, just as it is for us.

You can add a bit of cottage cheese to his meals. Salmon (not canned) is high in fat, but it's a "good" fat.

I know fat isn't real good for anyone, that's why I came here to ask :)
Salmon! I never thought of that, and the bones won't hurt him?
I guess what I'm really looking to do is increase caloric intact without too much bulk.

What a handsome boy.

Showing does take a toll on you and money also.I have a family friend who shows his Afghan.Cash is one point away from champion.I also have a friend who has a champion Dobe.His sire was world champion in 91 and Dam was Can/European Champion.

If you don't mind me asking,what are the parents backround?When you were looking for a pup,did you have the intensions of showing?The reason I ask is your breeder will know wich pup is show quality or pet quality.

I agree with doing the SchH.My GSD is titled in SchH III.He is also a retired Police Dog.He had to complete and pass Obedience.Then went through the 3 stages of SchH.SchH I starts at 18 months,SchH II at 19 months and the final SchH III at 20 months.Trust me,you don't need to train your dog for this.He will protect you. :)

Also,have you talked to your breeder about this?

Here is a pic of Nikko(red)

First, IMHO your dog doesn't look underweight from the picture you've shown. I can't see ribs for example. But that is just from one picture. So maybe he is too lean.

The simplest thing you can do to bring his weight up is increase the feed. It's better, in my mind, to do that than to add things like fat scraps etc. to the diet. Keeps things more balanced. For example, some have recommeded in the past to give a raw egg with the food as a boost but that will inhibit biotin intake. Bloat should not be a big concern if you do a few simple things. Limit water intake before and after the meal. Don't let him get excited or rolling and twisting around after eating. While bloat can be extremely dangerous if it happens, it is a small risk if you are careful. If you ever do see the signs go to the vet ASAP and insist on treatment including a radiograph to confirm if the stomach is twisted, don't let the vet guess. Timing is critical and quick response greatly reduces morbidity.

Recent studies show feeding two meals instead of one does not decrease risk of bloat.

You are feeding him a pretty good food. If you wanted you could try a food that is a bit richer. I think Eagle Pack Power is about the richest around, designed for working sled dogs, also used by lots of hunters/field trialers. I use tlcpetfood.com, it's in the middle between what you are feeding and the Eagle Pack. Eagle Pack original is pretty close to the TLCpetfood.

Another option is supplement with Prozyme which is a digestion aid. Will help him extract maximum nutrition from the food you are giving him.

Don't be too concerned if you are feeding more than the guidelines, particularly in the winter with a shorthaired dog. Dogs use food to regulate the body temperatures, so if he is active outside a lot he will require more food.

Here is a great link to Bloat.

http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm

Also,does he get canned or just dry?I would give him canned also.

Thanks for the suggestions.. He isn't 'underwieght', I just want to increase his intake because he is going to be getting much more exercise very soon and I don't want him to GET thinner.. He really couldn't afford to (IMHO) And he's still growing at a pretty good rate so that takes up alot of calories also.

He is fed only the kibble, no canned food. However, to further reduce the risk of bloat I soak it in hot water (also makes it more yummy for him ) This way I know it's pretty much already as big as it's gonna get before it goes in is belly. And it slows him down slightly (he bolts his food)
Because he already gets 6 cups aday of the Nutro large breed formula, I've been thinking of switching to the active dog/working dog formula (not sure what Nutro calls it).

*mona_b Your red is a beauty! Are you in ontario? If so what breeder did you get him from? Mine told me I pretty much got second pic from the litter....the stud owner picked either my pup or another,,,and he settled on the other at 7 weeks! ;) then he was kinda second guessing his choice... we'll see this summer when the two pups end up in the same show ring :D We did discuss showing and performance training. We did not discuss Shutzhund...
Have you any suggestions or training tips I could be using for him at this age to make it easier/better when he's old enough?

What about changing the food for a more rich food? If you're giving 6 cups of this food, maybe there is another, better food that would require 4.5 to 5 cups and then you can up him back to 6? When I switched my dogs to solid gold wolf king, they dropped from 2.5 cups to 2 cups (for the smaller one) and 4.5 cups to 3 cups for the big guy. 6 cups is just such a huge quantity. I would look at finding a food that reduces the cups required before adding even more...

If you want to further the risk of Bloat,the I would suggest giving him canned also.If you read the link I posted,it did state you should not feed dry exclusively.Which means do not just feed dry.I have raised GSD's.They are the top breed proned to Bloat.My boys have always had both canned and dry.And get fed 3x's a day.Mind you Bloat doesn't usually occur till they are older,but my friend lost her St.Bernard to it at 8 months.IMHO,6 cups seems to be a bit to much.How many times a day is he fed?If only once,then break it down to 2-3 times a day.And I do suggest canned.

Nikko is not mine.He belongs to a friend of mine.He did come from a breeder here in Ontario.Where did you get yours?

What is your pups lineage?I'd like to hear more about the Sire and Dam and the Pedigree.Have you talked to your breeder about showing him?Your breeder would know all this and help you out. :)

As for suggestions,are you talking about the SchH?

If you're giving 6 cups of this food, maybe there is another, better food that would require 4.5 to 5 cups and then you can up him back to 6?

Agree. Give him better food and you wont' have to feed as much. My 75 lb dog gets 2 cups of Wellness a day. There are no cheap fillers, ingredients are ONLY human grade and it's completely digestible to put on healthy weight.

The Nutro is as good as the Wellness. Actually it has a bit higher protein content.

Along with the Eagle Pack another you could try is Diamond Professional Formula. Nutro may also have a higher grade than what your are feeding.

Eagle Pack and Diamond Pro are highly regarded by people that run their dogs all day, hunters and mushers.

TLCpetfood would be too I suspect, but it's a pretty small company.

The Nutro is as good as the Wellness. Actually it has a bit higher protein content.

.


Sorry, but those 2 foods are in totally different classes!!

The Wellness has human grade ingredients whereas the Nutro does not.

Nutro is good but Wellness is much better.

Please remember this is a 7 month old, growing puppy?? He is a relatively high energy breed and in a serious growth stage. He requires as much feed as he's getting at this point.
I feed him Nutro Natural.. it's a comfortable price for me, and he seems to be doing great on it. Also, my other dog is too. She is being fed only 2 cups per day.. she's overweight and needs to shed a few pounds :)

I feed twice daily... 7am - 7pm and I soak it before feeding.

What does your breeder say?????

I think I am going to add some cottage cheese to his food. Maybe add in some canned as well. I want to keep him on the twice daily feedings, it's very convenient for us all... and he does well with it.
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. :)

What does your breeder say???HELLO HELLO

Gazoo, I just looked at the protein and fat ratios. You may know about Nutro than I. Fortunately I have never had to shop around and try different foods, so I don't know where Nutro lands in terms of quality.


Mind you pet food manufacture, in Canada anyway, is not regulated. So what the food is all about is tough to pin down. But that's for another thread.

Gazoo, I just looked at the protein and fat ratios. You may know about Nutro than I. Fortunately I have never had to shop around and try different foods, so I don't know where Nutro lands in terms of quality.


Mind you pet food manufacture, in Canada anyway, is not regulated. So what the food is all about is tough to pin down. But that's for another thread.


Nutro is NOT a bad food, in fact it's one of the better middle of the road foods out there. Healthy good stuff for your doogies anyway.

You also mentioned Diamond pet foods. Did you know they make the Costco brand and the Nutra Nuggets brand you can buy there? Both comparable to Nutro and significantly cheaper.

Interesting to know. However both beast and i are very happy with TLCpetfood.

She gobbles it up and is in great form, been on it all her life. (happy dog)

They deliver for free and her stools are easy to deal with. (happy human)

breeder feeds purina and I don't like that feed. breeder only suggested I find what I want to feed him, and keep him on it. :) I am happy with the Nutro....but, my original Q was simply how do I add alittle extra beef to my pup without adding a ton of extra food?? I was looking for a good additive to his meals that might do that...
I think I'm going to look at changing to Nutro's active formula..... i have to look into it first though :D

The reason why the Nutro may have more protein percentage-wise than the wellness is because of the kind. If you look at Pedigree corn food, there is still a lot of protein content, but the protein is not easily digestible. If you have a food with 25% proteing and half of that comes out in the stool, it's not better than a food where the dog absorbs all of the protein.

I don't understand why, if you want to show this dog, why you don't put him on the best food you know of? My babies were on "middle" range food and when I switched them to Solid Gold, I didn't think there would be a difference, but holy dog, there is. They have much shinier fur even though it was unbelieveably shiny before. I used to have a dobie and their short fur and easy access skin are so sensitive to the food quality. Plus with a better food you might feed less.

Please remember this is a 7 month old, growing puppy?? He is a relatively high energy breed and in a serious growth stage. He requires as much feed as he's getting at this point.

Yes,we know he is 7 months and growing... :) ..and handsome.. :p

But 6 cups is to much.IMHO..

I have raised GSD's.They too are a high energy breed.I didn't feed them 6 cups.There was no need to cause they were on a good quality of food.Same with my sister who has 4 VERY high energy breeds.3 are Huskies and the other a Border Collie.Same thing,good quality of food.

I will get a hold of Nikko's mommy and talk to her about this.

Question.Does your vet have any concerns about his weight?He actually looks fine to me.

Also,how long have you had him?

I still would like to hear more about his Sire and Dam... :)

My dog Boo didn't have a chest until he was 2 1/2. We thought his elbows were just meant to touch... Now he's got a beautiful , "manly chest".

You can't eat your way to a chest (all the women here know that... :) ), you have to wait until it develops. And from what I have seen at shows, some dobies don't do well because they never develop the "proper" chest....

The vet is real happy with his weight right now, He want's him to stay lean. The other breeder I had him evaluated by suggested he is just alittle immature. He will fill out as he gets older. I guess I haven't been clear in explaining what it is I'm trying to do with this pup.. :confused:
With the warmer weather coming his exercise is going to increase a great deal. He is doing great on the feed that he's getting now, but, it just isn't physically possible to keep caloric intake the same and increase activity without some adverse affects. I want to pump up his calorie intact to accomadate the increase in exercise...(the exercise is what I'm hoping helps him build a more muscular chest)

Here a photo of his sire - CH ULTRASOUND'S DAMIAN
by CH LINDON VON MORR
ex ULTRASOUND'S MERCEDES

His dam is from Coldwater, she is also an Ultrasound dog... have'nt got her pedigree info handy.... or a pic :( But, she's a big, correct black/rust girl

I think you don't have anything to worry about. I have a German Shorthair, so similar physique and hair as your Dobbie. In the winter I have to almost DOUBLE her food to keep her weight up and she is less active than the summer, but still we excercise her pretty hard. Or I should say she excercises herself, all I have to do let her off leash in the bush and she's on autopilot.

As the weather warms up and my GSP is MORE active, I will be feeding her LESS.

Every dog has it's own metabolism but I would be surprised if you don't see your boy beef up a bit with no food change once the weather warms up.

Nutro is NOT bad food, it's just not premium. I did try Nutro because of the price, but after I got it home, I saw that I would have to feed my dog TWICE as much of it as I do of the Wellness. No saving there.

Also you have to feed way more because obviously it takes more to give the same amount of nutrition as a higher quality and more digestible food.

My dog gets as much - and BETTER - nutrition from 2 cups of Wellness as she would get from 6 cups of Purina because most of it is not rejected by her body and doesnt' end up on the ground.

If I were conditioning a dog to show, I would want only the very best food that would put on healthy weight.

My little dog (62lb lab husky) was on 4 cups of wellness when we got her!!! We switched to Eukanuba because I couldn't afford Wellness and I gave her the recommended "cuppage" and she dropped 12 lbs in a month. Now her metabolism is more normal and she gets 2 cups of solid gold wolf king. My big guy (96lbs) gets 3 1/3 cups of solid gold and he is very active.

When we go away for a night, I put a day's food in a milkbag for each dog and 3 cups is a large quantity. I couldn't fathom 6 cups. It probably wouldn't fit in a milk bag... I would never let it get that high, I'd change the food first. I know great danes who eat 4 cups. Maybe they are more sedentary but they're a whole lot bigger.

What does "one of the best middle range foods" mean? I mean how can you have the best of something that's not the best? Eukanuba was $60 for 40 lbs and solid gold is $71 for 33 lbs, not much of a difference from middle to high. Wouldn't it be better to say "you get what you pay for"?

Every dog has it's own metabolism but I would be surprised if you don't see your boy beef up a bit with no food change once the weather warms up.

Thanks for mentioning that...I hadn't considered that part of things :) Warmer weather also means their bodies are using less calories to stay warm too. ;)

What does "one of the best middle range foods" mean? I mean how can you have the best of something that's not the best? Eukanuba was $60 for 40 lbs and solid gold is $71 for 33 lbs, not much of a difference from middle to high. Wouldn't it be better to say "you get what you pay for"?
"?


Because sometimes the high end natural foods are more about hype, marketing and sounding attractive to the dog owner than about nutrition.

Especially when you get the hippie brand, ultra holistic, natural oatmeal, brown rice, boysenberry, bison and trout blend. :D

There is a lot more marketing done for the middle range foods than the higher end foods. You never see Solid Gold's name on anything. All you see is Eukanuba, Purina and other huge companies that make the "middle range foods".

Well I talked to Kikko's Mom.

First off,she says 6 cups is definately way to much.3-4 is the max.But see,she feeds Kikko canned also.And has since he was a pup.She has done this with her other Dobe also.He was also a champion.But passed away a few years ago.Nash,the other in the pic I posted is Nikko's brother.Amy's brothers dog.Also a Champion.They both have been in the show world for many years.

She has also stated that you should be working with your breeder on all this.They are more than happy to help you.She said not to push your pup to get him bulked up.He is still young.And you could be doing more harm then good.She does feed him raw veggies.Also,you should be working with your breeder about showing.Nikko and Nash have both been taught to "stack" as early as 4 weeks.They were both in the show ring at 6 months.But they worked VERY hard with them to get them there.

Question.Did you know you wanted to show him before you got him?

Also,she was curious as to what breeder you got him from.

She said not to push your pup to get him bulked up.He is still young.And you could be doing more harm then good.She does feed him raw veggies.Also,you should be working with your breeder about showing.Nikko and Nash have both been taught to "stack" as early as 4 weeks.They were both in the show ring at 6 months.But they worked VERY hard with them to get them there.


Yes, yes, and yes.

All this - training, socializing, teaching the "stack" should have been done ages ago.

Training, Socializing and training to stack ARE being done (those things take time and know how) The time I have, the know how i'm gaining. :)

As I have been feeding him 5-6 cups a day for the past 2 - 2.5 months, and he's not overwieght at this point, I will say it's not too much. :)

I have been working with the breeder(owner of dam & he does not show) as well as having my dog evaluated by other breeders :)

My intention is not to "push him to bulk up", I plan to gain muscle through exercise. My vet and I both agreed that he is lean now, and I have kept him lean intentionally to help his bones while he grows. :)
However, increased activity = increased calorie requirments. :)


My post originally was to see if there was something I can add to his current ration to assist with this. :)

I do appreciate everyones comments and concerns, however, I am an educated, caring person who researched my breed, and breeder before I bought my pup. I was fully intending to show him when we were both ready. :) I am researching different training techniques as well as different performance sports for us to compete in. As we all know these things take time, money, commitment and a dog who can perform. So far, I'm only shy on one thing ;)

Well since you did mention about the food and the showing,I only responded cause I did discuss this with a Dobe expert who does show.And it was her who said that the 6 cups was way to much.Something we have already mentioned to you.

No one here said you were not educated.... :)

Sorry,but I have to ask this.And I am not trying to be rude.But you just stated that the owner of the Dam doesn't show?So she has no Championships or Titles?But yet the Sire is a Champion from Ultrasound?Which I know they are located in Owen Sound.It is my experience that a breeder using a Champion or Titled Sire would never stud him out to a non champion or untitled Dam.And vise versa.

My GSD's have come from Champion Lines,and titled in SchH III.There is no way my breeder would ever use a stud that didn't have either of these.

So sorry to say,but you just may not have a show quality pup.

Sorry,but I'm just trying to educate you about the show world.Something I have been into for 20 years.And I know quite a few breeders in Ontario.

Breeder's opinions are but one opinion, though experienced they may be. They are still coming from one perspective. Do your own homework, take lots of opinions in.

When I read absolutes like '6 cups is way too much' my alarm goes off. This person doesn't know the dog. 6 cups could be fine, nothing to be alarmed about.

Also, a CH is NOT a green light to breed, it doesn't mean the litter will be great and the lack of a CH is no certainty that the pups will be lousy.

A CH is not bad, it's good. But it is all relative.

Take for instance the Border Collie. Until a few years ago it was not a recognized breed and was not competed in conformation shows. The people closest to the breed faught for years to keep the breed out of conformation shows in order to preserve the quality of the dog as a worker.

Take for another example the versatile hunters. Setters, some spaniels , pointers..... By far the greatest number of these dogs that are bred are NOT CH dogs. Many of them will have hunt test titles, some field trial dogs, some NAVDHA tested, some no letters at all but are the best dogs at hunting. Lines that for generations were bred based on performance at the job they were bred to do.

Police dogs? CH is not important, performance at the required level is.

Seeing eye dogs. Ditto.

A top working pasture dog from the best lines, you'd never see in the conformation ring.

Anyway I could go on. I'm sure the point is made.

Most people that keep dogs in order to use the dog for its breeed specific function couldn't care less about conformation titles. They want proven performance.

IMO most "professional" breeders, as well intentioned as they are, are in the business of taking care of themselves, not the quality of the breed.

Don't be fooled.

OK rant fininshed. :D

When I read absolutes like '6 cups is way too much' my alarm goes off. This person doesn't know the dog. 6 cups could be fine, nothing to be alarmed about.

Have you ever put 6 cups of food in a bag? You should try it one day. It is a lot of food, quantity-wise. To me any food that would bring the quantity down without affecting caloric intake is worth trying out.

It's like when you go to Ireland and you watch rugby guys pound down 49 pints of Guinness and you wonder, where the heck does it all go? If you put the full 6 cups in a bag and compare it to the size of your dog's belly, you may think the same thing...

Let me break it down like this...... my pup is fed SOAKED kibble at 7 am the dry amount is approximatly 2 cups (give or take a kibble or two)
We use AT LEAST 1 - 1.5 cups of dry kibbles in training during the daytime (sometimes as many as 5 sessions at different times)
Again at 7 pm SOAKED kibble dry measure approximatly 2 cups (give or take a kibble or two)

I know 6 cups sounds like a TON of food....and I agree 100% that's too much in one feeding for any dog... But, I would challenge anyone to test out the ACTUAL amount of food their dogs (in training) consume in the run of a day. Mark down EVERY single tidbit that goes into your dogs mouth..then at the end of the day... recreate it all and measure (weight or size) I'm really curious to see what ya'll come up with.

I KNOW exactly how much food goes into my puppy in the run of every day. I state 6 cups, because in REALITY that's what goes in within 24 hours.

Here is my break down for you.
My 62lb doggy gets 2 cups of food in the morning and 2 cookies all day (one for each dump) and then 1/3c food at night.
My 96lb dog gets 3c in the morning, 1 cookie (one dump for him) and then 0.5c food at night.
That's it.
And they run for a minimum of 3 hours a day.

(I only give them cookies for dumps because they were abused and sometimes it is hard for them to go as a result... If I was training, that food would come out of their night food portion.)

Are growing puppies in training?

They aren't growing but my doggies still train regularly. I have phased out the cookies about a year ago. I had a fat lab before and I promised these doggies I wouldn't let that happen. At this point they work for me, not for rewards.

db7, I agree with many of the points you make. Working dogs who are the best are often bred with no titles to sell to people who want a serious working dog. A dog who is the best at his job is likely to have very correct drives and excellent health in order to DO the job. No one would breed a working border collie who couldn't or wouldn't herd, either because of lack of drive or crippling genetic defects.

However, what Mona said is true. Dobermans are not hunting dogs, and no one with a Ch.dog would stud it out to an untitled bitch whose owner does not even show - either in conformation OR performance. Someone who does no showing at all is also not likely to health test for the genetic defects common in this breed, and there are quite a few and some serious.

Every dog is a hunting dog :D
And both the Weim and the GSP were part of teh Dobies foundation.

Here is a Dobie pointing grouse.

Yes but rarely do you see working dobes today! I think it's fair to say most are companions or pets.

not bad on pheasant either!
Crystal's Top Gun de Scudamore, C.D.X.

And not be outdone! This is fun :crazy:

Police dogs? CH is not important, performance at the required level is.

Well actually it does help.And being Titled in SchH III is a BIGGER bonus.They need this.They need to come from Titled Lines.Sires mostly come from European Lines.And SchH III Titled.This goes as far as 5 generations.This also goes for the Dams.

I do know of an Can/Am CH Border Collie.And he is also titled in Herding.I know of Ch Retrievers and Spaniels,they are also titled in Retrieving and Field Work.And they come from Champion and Tiltled lines.This is what I have been seeing.

No CH or Titled lines to me means no genetic or health testing.

Well that's different since you broke it down.You should have stated that when we kind of flipped when you said it at first.... :)

I did train my guys when they were puppies.And to be honest,no I didn't need to use 1-1 1/2 cups of kibble for this.I used Training treats.Then with Tron I used his favorite ball.Something most Police K9 Units use as a reward.When they do something right,they get the ball.I ended up also doing this with Yukon.I started their training asap when I got them.They were both 12 weeks old.

MIA,you are right.Most are just companion and Pets. :)

. I had a fat lab before

Not that that's a bad thing....my lab mix is a fatty, no, wait, he's just undertall. :p

I do know of an Can/Am CH Border Collie.And he is also titled in Herding.I know of Ch Retrievers and Spaniels,they are also titled in Retrieving and Field Work.And they come from Champion and Tiltled lines.This is what I have been seeing.

Dual titles, or more, then you can really begin tohave confidence in the breeding.

There are so many opinions about the value of the titles.

Field trialers will say conformation breeders are ruiing the breed. Navhda types will go on and on about field trialers hell bent on style and that ruins the breed because the bottom line is style doen't put birds in the bag.

As for the health certification, of course it is a top priority to confirm your dog is healthy and also it's parents. But to really be assured of no genetic problems you would need to see the test results on the sire and dam's siblings, and that is pretty much impossible.

Not that that's a bad thing....my lab mix is a fatty, no, wait, he's just undertall. :p
My dog wasn't really fat, I meant to say "lipid-endowed".... Do labs come any other way?
She had a 5lb fatty tumor removed at around 13... They sent it to L.A. to sell as a novel product for the stars' further enhancement. (not really, obviously, but they thought about it)

LMAO!!!!!! I think the problem started with his weight when our 2 year old started table food in the high chair... when Robbie didn't like dinner, Bear ate very well.

Your boy is a beauty and I must commend you because you sound like a very responsible owner. We get a lot of people who do not want to neuter because there dog is so cute but you have obviously done your homework. I do agree about tattooing your litter when the time comes you will be able to keep track of any that end up lost or in rescue. I would not worry about the weight he will fill out in due time you don't want him to grow too quickly and end up with joint or hip problems. Good luck with him and keep posting pics he is very regal looking

Your boy is a beauty and I must commend you because you sound like a very responsible owner. We get a lot of people who do not want to neuter because there dog is so cute but you have obviously done your homework. I do agree about tattooing your litter when the time comes you will be able to keep track of any that end up lost or in rescue. I would not worry about the weight he will fill out in due time you don't want him to grow too quickly and end up with joint or hip problems. Good luck with him and keep posting pics he is very regal looking

Thank You so much. I have been looking through different pics of other dogs that had Ch at young ages, they too seem to be 'lacking' in chest. But, pics of same dogs 6-8 months later show they've filled in nicely. I think I will continue on the way we are, I have added some yogurt (probiotics) to his morning meals, and have begun to ramp up the springtime exercise.
I do indeed plan to microchip any litters he contributes to :) seems a waste not to do it, and I would DEFINATLY want them returned to me if buyers can't keep, dont' want, whatever the reasons!

I would DEFINATLY want them returned to me if buyers can't keep, dont' want, whatever the reasons!

That's not how it works. Puppies are the property of the dam owner, and that is who they would returned to, not the stud owner.

The stud owner gets a fee, or pick of the litter, period.

That's not how it works. Puppies are the property of the dam owner, and that is who they would returned to, not the stud owner.

The stud owner gets a fee, or pick of the litter, period.


So VERY VERY True..... :thumbs up

let me clarify...... IF in the event the dam owner can not or will not take a puppy back, being the stud owner, I would DEFINATLY do so. :D

Any breeder who refuses take back their own puppies is not reputable and I would steer clear of someone like this.

BTW, Bravo channel is starting a series on the showdog world. I didn't catch it tonight and don't know how informative it is, but you might enjoy it!:D

Then in that case,the Dams owner should not be breeding.I know of no responsible breeder who could not take a puppy back.

Question.You say the Dams owner doesn't show.Right?Then what line of pedigree does this Dam come from?What titles does she have?This question is coming from Kikkos Mom... :)

LR,Do you still have that link you once posted about the difference between Responsible Breeders vs BYB's?...When my comp was reformatted,I lost it.

Awaiting my papers for pup. As soon as I have it, I'll post dam's info. :D

This is the newest pic I have of him stacked. We are working on it, and taking a handling class. Can't wait to see a pic of your pup on here :D my 4.5 month old Doberman is a grandson to the well known Lex Luther

I guess it takes all kinds...
I do suppose that's the truth :)

Well, I know nothing about food or the show ring....but you have an absolutly GORGEOUS pooch!! I love Dobies...don't be shy to post more pics :D

Awaiting my papers for pup. As soon as I have it, I'll post dam's info. :D

But you should have already known this info before you got your pup.The breeder would have given you it.

You asked me before if Kikko's breeder was in Ontario.Yuppers.She's in Schomberg.There was actually someone who was on here quite some time ago who was looking for a Dobe pup.Her previous Dobe passed on.I actually referred her to this same breeder.She got a beautiful pup,I think she was 5 months old.This pup was returned back to the breeder.What kennel name is Dillenger from?

The dam owner did show me all the info...dams' papers, 7 generation back pedigree.. the usual. I don't remember it all of course :) He offered me copies of it all, I told him to just send it to me in the package with the papers. I should have it all within the next week. I will post it as soon as I have it... you can bet on it! :D

The kennel name is UltraSound (through sire) as I said before the dam owner is not a registered breeder. He has only had 2 litters from the bitch, and has spayed her now. She (I believe) is also an UltraSound dog and passed the criteria for UltraSound to allow a breeding to Damian. The contract I have is from the dam owner, in association with ultrasound kennels.
Does that answer the question?

I know nothing about showing or papers,but he certainly is a beauty :love:

He is a handsome boy!! I just love that age when the front legs look Soooo big, kinda flintstone feet :D
Love the pics, look forward to more.

There is no way the Dam came from Ultrasond Kennels.They,along with all other breeders have a spay/neuter contract for their "pet" quality pups.And they have a Non-Breeding contract for their "show" quality pups.And since the Dam owner was not a registered kennel,and didn't show,then she would have been put on a spay contract.Amy,Kikko's mom,knows them at Ultrasound very well.They competed in a few shows together... :)

And the main reason his Dam is not from Ultrasound,because then your Dillinger would actually be Ultrasound.Ultrasound is the registered kennel name.Did that make sense?

If I went against my breeders contract,I would have been fined $5000 each for my dogs.If you go against a Non-Breeding contract,and it is stated on the registration papers,then the CKC will NOT let you register the pups.

I'm not trying to start a war here,just stating the facts.I know alot of breeders and have been to many many shows.And as a member of the CKC,I have also helped out.

And once again, thanks for the info on what to feed my puppy to increase caloric intake :confused:

I don't recall saying she was sold on a pet contract. I do recall saying I believe she was originally sold to this gentleman from Ultrasound. They DO have an association (my contract states it clearly) I hate to contradict you (you seem to know so much) but, those are the facts in this case.
BYB? no,
Puppymill? no.
Good, responsible and loving dam owner WITH an agreement with Ultrasound for breeding to one of their studs.
Take it however you want...those are the facts in this situation......

The litter and individual papers were registered by dam owner (like they should be) and I was allowed to pick the name I wanted for my dog :D I would have been able to use Ultrasound in his name if i choose to...I choose not to.

I certainly do not appreciate your innuendo that I am lying about the lineage of my dog. :mad: Especially when I clearly stated the dam's history at this point is unclear to me (due to poor memory on my part until paperwork arrives) I am regretting not taking it in hand when I had the chance (if only to prove to you the truth). But, I told dam owner to send it along in the mail with the papers. I have spoken with Ultrasound kennels owner and he too has a male from that litter for showing...... 'splain that one away! :thumbs up

Before this thread goes and gets all crabby again, can I ask the show dog people a question?

Why is it that whenever a show dog is standing, the handler moves his legs back? What does that do?

And about the fodd issue-- A few of us said before that the best thing would be to buy a better food so you have to feed less and then move the serving up a bit. We give you advice, you just don't like the advice we give.

And about the fodd issue-- A few of us said before that the best thing would be to buy a better food so you have to feed less and then move the serving up a bit. We give you advice, you just don't like the advice we give.


I have no problem with advice that was given in regards to the food. :D I appreciated it all, and have actually implemented some of the suggestions into my fed program (see past posts) The comment I think you're refering to was directed at the previous poster... it was not a 'general' comment

Why is it that whenever a show dog is standing, the handler moves his legs back? What does that do?

This is called "stacking" and to the best of my knowledge, it's done to show the dog's conformation to the best advantage.

Maybe that postition is like stillettos in humans-- accentuate the muscles in the best possible way?

Maybe that postition is like stillettos in humans-- accentuate the muscles in the best possible way?

I believe (in my limited show knowledge) it's not so much the muscles as the proper angles of the skeleton. Maybe a successful show person could share the reasons with us?? I'd love to know also

Sorry lots of posts and I didn't read them all -- if you still are wondering about putting wieght on your dog, our vet suggested vegitable or olive oil on their food. Our husky was serverly underweight when we got her and this quickly put the healthy pounds on. THen when she was up to wieght we stopped the oil and it stopped putting weight on without reducing the amount we fed her.

Thanks for the suggestion Deborah D :D
My pup is not underwieght at all. He is doing great at this point. I was concerned that with an increase in his exercise (to help him build some muscles) he would require a greater calorie intake. I've been given some great ideas so far, and am using some of them. I am sticking with the Nutro Natural and have added 2 tbls of cottage cheese in his breakfast and 2 heaping tbls of yogurt in his supper. We took a very fun walk at our local offleash park today. He made many new friends and burned MANY calories! He got his dinner early tonight and a snack 20mins ago. Sleeping like a true baby at the moment :D

GADOBES - :thumbs up Thank You


*I do add flax seed oil to my horses ration during the winter :confused: why haven't I thought of that??

I'm going to do some research and math on the flaxseed oil. I will be adding it to my pups feed (*still can't believe I haven't thought of it before) It is seriously good for their health, skin, coat etc etc.
If you plan to use Olive Oil....only use extra virgin and check that the label says it is 'cold pressed'.. I understand that is the most beneficial type to feed. I'm not sure if you need to feed both, but, you can be sure when I have finished researching it I will forward the info to you

I bet if she knew insecure people were going to be insulting, negative and snotty to make themselves feel important

No one has been any of the above you have stated.

She came on here stating that she was not going to have him neutered.And said why.So the questions came out.She stated that the Dams owner does not show.So this also tells us she has no titles.And those of us who know something about breeding,know that no reputable(reg'd)breeder would ever stud out their CH dog to a sire like that.They breed to better the breed.And they will stud out to the best.As they will not have just any dog stud their Dams.

Yes I know she is new to the show world.But knowing the lineage has nothing to do with that.Before I got my dogs,I talked to alot of breeders and went to see them all at the dog shows.I finally chose my breeder.I was put on a waiting list.I was shown the pedigrees(5 generations) along with all the pics.This was from both Sire and Dam.They came from a line of champions and titled dogs.Could I have used my dogs as stud?Heck yes.But I coulldn't because of the neuter contract I was on.They were both health and genetic tested.One is titled.That's because he was in Police Work.My other,who I lost in Sept was my suckie baby.

Also,you can pick a name,which sometimes you can't have,and they have to pick it.BUT,you cannot change the breeders name.This is what's on the registration papers from birth.

Example.

CH Whisper Hill's In Vogue...Whisper Hill's is the reg'd kennel name.This is the name you cannot change.


LR is right.That's exactly why it's done. :)...What ends up happening is sometimes the dog is off just a wee bit when "stacking"..So the handler just has to put the dog in the right spot.The majority do it right on the spot,where as others just need a bit of help.There are no faults for this... :)

William Boetcker-
You cannot raise a man up by calling him down.

Someone tell that to Bob Barker...

Ok back to the topic at hand... :)

I bet if she knew insecure people were going to be insulting, negative and snotty to make themselves feel important, I'm sure she would have never asked.

I would not consider this particularly "tactful". "Insecure people"? Please leave hasty and judgemental insults out of this. They are unnecessary in mature discussion.

Thank you.

White rice has more carbohydrates and sodium, and less of many nutrients than other kinds of rice. I wouldn't recommend it for putting on healthy weight.

GADOBES.

When she was asking about how she could more or less "bulk" up her pup since she intends to show.I ask her to talk to her breeder about this.Then she stated he didn't show.So of course he has no knowledge and she can't really go to him.This is where a red flag came up to me.Any reg'd breeder would be right there helping you with showing and the feeding,and any other question you have.Then she came on here,which is fine.But I'm sorry,anyone who doesn't show or have titled dogs IS in my eyes a BYB.He isn't even a reg'd breeder.This is why I have been asking a lot of questions about the Dam.When it came to any questions about anything with my dogs,I went to the breeder.Who,was breeding for over 20 years.Who showed and also had titled dogs in SCH III.This also went for the Sire.I deal with breeders,so yes,I do have experience with them.And I know what they are all about.So because of this,I was offering my experience.Also,if the vet says he is in fine shape,why fix something that isn't broken.You can only be making matters worse.And to me,he does look fine and isn't underweight or anything.

NO NO NO

Please do NOT give him Avacodos.....They are highly toxic to dogs.

Sometimes what is in certain dog foods can be harmful-- Soy foods have been shown to cause bloat...

Hmmm,to be honest,I have never heard of that brand of food.

But I do know that avacodos are toxic to dogs.There have been a few links put on here about it.I'll try to find them.

AvoDerm Adult Chicken Meal & Rice

Ingredient Name

1. Lamb Meal

2. Ground Brown Rice

3. Ground White Rice

4. Rice Bran

5. Chicken Fat

6. Flaxseed

7. Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal

8. Dried Egg Product

9. Avocado Oil

10. Lecithin

11. Brewer's Dried Yeast

12. Natural Flavors

13. Rosemary Extract

14. Sage Extract

15. Vitamins/Minerals

If research show a food is toxic, it's toxic. Whether a dog food company advocates it or not. If Solid Gold put chocolate in dog food and said it leads to a shinier coat, I wouldn't really listen because I have seen what chocolate has done to dogs.

I'll go read on avocados.

The problem with avocados is that the pit contains cyanide which is deadly for dogs. Whether the dog food company takes the pit out.... That's where the issue is.

You could do a few things here. One is contact the OVC at University of Guelph. They do a lot of research on nutrition. They may have some actual factual data. You could also inquire with the dog food company. Sure they could lie but really.... they will probably give you their explaination. Decide on that. Talk to people who have the most experience with this to be sure.

I have been doing some reading on flaxseed oil for my dog. I already use it as an additive for my horse and like what it does for her.
According to the research I've done, cardiomyopathy (problem in Dobie's) is tentativly being linked with low levels of taurine, Omega 3 & 6. Flaxseed oil will provide the Omega 3 & 6, so I am planning (after consult with my vet, as the ratio needs to be determined) on adding it to his daily rations.
If my vet agrees that it is prudent to add to his diet, I will keep you all informed of how he's doing. :D

P.S. I am also looking into including him in the heart study as well.

Why don't you go to http://www.breeders-choice.com/Dog_...avodermdog.html and learn about avOcados before you dismiss them?


Ummmmm,I wasn't dissmissing them.I was just stating that I have heard from different sites that avocados are toxic to dogs and that I haven't heard of that brand of food.....

Temper Temper....... :rolleyes:

I've just attempted to do some quick research online about Avocado Toxicity in dogs..
What i found was... there is no real consensus on this. Some sites say it is bad, others say the leaves are bad.
At this point, until things become more clear, agree to disagree.

**Update** hmm, how about we all agree with the ASPCA Animal Posion Control Centre and thier list of Toxic plants? (avocado included)
http://www.aspca.org/site/FrameSet?style=User&url=../toxicplants/M01947.htm