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Dog Breed Information

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 11:31 AM
Just some dog breed information. As originally there were very few original breeds of dogs. What we know now to be purebred dog in many cases are mixes between two or more breeds. After years of breeding and reaching a level of 300 dogs of the same chemistry and breed was born. for example

Doberman PInscher - Mixed of German Pinschers with Rottweillers,Beauceron,PInschers,Gryhound and English Greyhounds. Breeder was a tax collector named Louis Doberman hence the name. In 1860

Golden Retreivers - Mixed Yellow Flat Coated Retrievers and Tweed Water Spaniels

Poodle - Mixed French Water Dog and Hungarian Water Dog German name Pudel, hence Poodle

Bull Mastiffs - Mixed Mastiffs & Bull Dogs

Bichon Frise - Mixed Barbet Water Spaniel & Poodle

Great Dane - Mixed with Greyhounds and Mastiff type dogs from Asia

So as we can all see, what we call today a purebred at one time was a mixed breed. All of which were bred that way with one particular goal in mind. Inturn approx 80 - 90% of the breeds we know now were once called mixed breed dog.

For example the Doberman, breed purposely to help the tax man on his journeys. Hoping that is looks would scare people into paying.

mastifflover
February 25th, 2005, 11:40 AM
Good info but these were developed with a job in mind they were not developed so someone would have a dog to carry around in there purse. Also many years went into the development and I bet they only used ideal specimens of the breed to create the dog they needed. I agree a lot of breeds are mixes of dogs but I think these people actually cared to create a better dog not make a sh**load of money of unsuspecting people who know nothing about dogs and health testing. That is my biggest problem with these designer dogs nobody cares about the background health of the dogs they are breeding and really don't care all they see is people who will pay 700 or more for a mutt

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 11:47 AM
Yes I agree with you if breeders are just trying to breed for cute dogs.

However for dogs fitting into your purse, infact many of our small breeds have been breed and breed until the were at the desired size for the royalties of several countries, who speciafically requested that the dogs be breed smaller. So they did not always have good intentions.

Irish Setters were breed once a coat color was acheived that pleased the breeder and his friends. Once again no real reason.

Also as I said in my last post, the Doberman was breed only to be a fearful looking and strong dog. Nothing else in Mind.

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 11:58 AM
Then explain a "teacup chi". What is the purpose of that? Dobermans were bred long ago for a purpose....guarding. They have changed little over the years, and have a reasonable life expectancy, with few life threatening health problems. The teacup chi cannot be so vouched for. The teacup has been bred so small that they're prone to great health problems.

Over a great deal of years, the breeds you listed became accepted for thier qualities and have been bred to try an eliminate any health defects. The same cannot be said for BYB and millers just pumping out designer dogs to make money. Do they care about quality? No one bit. What they care about is the fact that they get top dollar for a dog that doesn't do one bit of good for either breed that went into it.

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 12:01 PM
I did not say that I agree with BYB's. And let me make it clear that I do not belive in BYB's and they should be shut down. My post was giving information on breeds that we now have and how they became.

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 12:05 PM
But it does sound like you're condoning the breeding of designer dogs in the way you're saying it.

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 12:07 PM
The Chi is the oldest breed in north american, so breeding of this dog has been around forever. It was brought to north america at the end of the 19th century from China where it originated.

for a chi to be a true chi, it must be under 2 lbs. You can get smaller or bigger than 2 lbs. if under they are called teacup.

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 12:13 PM
Teacup chis are made by breeding the smallest of litters to each other, to achieve an exceptionally small dog. They are not true chis by any definition. The purpose of having such an unhealthy dog? None, other than to make money. FYI: According to the AKC, a true Chi is a dog under 6 pounds, not 2.

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 12:17 PM
I agree, and as I said before, many of these smaller breeds were breed that way only because someone wanted to make the smallest and cutest. Where does it say that I agree with It?

And as i said before I do not agree with either BYB's or Millers!!

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 12:21 PM
Bishon Frise: Has been around since before 1300. They were companion dogs to Spanish sailors and often used for barter. After they became popular, roalty and nobility often kept the dogs in thier courts.

After EDIT:

The Bichon Frise is of Mediterranean ancestry. His oldest ancestor is the Barbet, or Water Spaniel, from which the name Barbichon cam, later shortened to Bichon. Also descended from the Barbet are the Caniche, or Poodle, and the Maltese. They have certain similarities because of their common ancestry, but each long ago became a separate breed.

Taken from the Bichon Frise Club of America.

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Just some dog breed information. As originally there were very few original breeds of dogs. What we know now to be purebred dog in many cases are mixes between two or more breeds. After years of breeding and reaching a level of 300 dogs of the same chemistry and breed was born. for example

So as we can all see, what we call today a purebred at one time was a mixed breed. All of which were bred that way with one particular goal in mind. Inturn approx 80 - 90% of the breeds we know now were once called mixed breed dog.


This, to me, sounds like you're condoning the breeding of two dogs to arrive at an all-together different breed. Since the topics of late have been designer dogs, and we all know they're mixes of two breeds. For example, you say that the Irish Setter was bred to get that magnificent coat of red. You neglected to say that the Irish Setter is a gun dog, that's been used for many years. The true coat is white and red. Sure, they were bred for thier coat color, but the actual dog hasn't changed, just the color.

I'm not arguing, just pointing out facts left out.

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 12:28 PM
Yes that is correct and then they were traded to the French royal court

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Yes that is correct and then they were traded to the French royal court

Also from the Bichon Frise Club:
Late in the 1400's, as the French became enamoured of Italian culture, France invaded Italy, and the Italian influence spread north. Italian artists and scholars went north to serve in the French courts and, no doubt, carried along favorite pets.

Or were you talking about the Irish Setter?
We're posting way too quickly!!!! :D

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 12:35 PM
"The Irish Setter was orginally called the Irish Red Setter in the United States. It derived from a variety of spaniels, setters and pointers. At one time the Irish Setter was a red & white dog with shorter legs than todays breed. In the 19th century, following intensive selective breeding effors, the lustrous, pure chestnut red setter emerged to win both prizes and hearts. "

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 12:39 PM
"The Irish Setter is an active aristocratic bird-dog, rich-red in color, substantial yet elegant in build. Standing over two feet tall at the shoulder, the dog has a straight fine, glossy coat, long on ears, chest, tail, and back of legs. Afield he is a swift-moving hunter; at home a sweet natural trainable companion. His is a rollicking personality. (From the Standard)
This magnificently colored hunting dog came into his own early in the eighteenth century in his native Ireland. He soon gained popularity throughout the British Isles also. The early specimens of the breed were not the solid color we associate with the breed today. They were for the most part, red and white. They became great favorites as general hunting dogs and were used for various game birds.

The solid red setter as distinguished from the parti-colored dog came into prominence in Ireland early in the nineteenth century. They earned their reputation as a hunter in the United States primarily with birds strange and new to them ruffed grouse, quail, and the prairie chicken."

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 12:41 PM
My only reason for posting was to show examples of how some of our now known purebreds became purebreds. AKC has standards that they have made themselves. And many books have slightly different histories on dogs. I did not post in order to debate actuall origins of dog, only what has been published

So by posting how our now known dogs came to be - says that I agree with BYB's and millers ?? Get real

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 12:48 PM
Doberman Pinscher Club of America:

"With its uncluttered look and symmetrical outline, the Doberman is uniquely a product of the 20th Century. Its short shiny coat, clipped ears and tail, superb structure and iron musculature, give the Doberman a trim appearance modern as tomorrow."

"The Doberman Pinscher derived its name from Louis Dobermann of Apolda, Thuringia, whose breeding experiments were reputedly involved in its early development. After his death in 1894, the Germans named the breed Dobermann-pinscher in his honor, but a half century later dropped the pinscher on the grounds that this German word for terrier was no longer appropriate. The British did the same thing a few years later. The Miniature Pinscher is not a miniature Doberman and the two breeds are not related."

"There are no records, only speculation, as to the dogs which went into the creation of the original Doberman, but it is documented that crosses were made to two of the English breeds around the turn of the century, using the Black and Tan Manchester Terrier and the black English Greyhound, in order to improve the Doberman's appearance. It is generally accepted as fact that the two German breeds, which played a major role in the Doberman's ancestry were: the old German Shepherd, now extinct: and the German Pinscher - the ancestors of the Rottweiler and the Weimaraner."

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 12:50 PM
many people on this site have purebred dogs. Which may have originally been a designer breed as you call it. Does this mean that they support BYB's and / or millers.?

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 12:51 PM
I could do this all day. What I'm getting at is that you posted these breeds and said that they started off as non-breeds, but became recognised after multiple breedings. True. Most of todays breeds are a mixture of different breeds, but they were done to do more than just make money.

If you post information about something, try to make it as acurate as possible. It's the only thing to do.

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 12:54 PM
many people on this site have purebred dogs. Which may have originally been a designer breed as you call it. Does this mean that they support BYB's and / or millers.?

Far from it. I own a purebred dog. I know the history of my dog and can quite easily post it for you. Mine did not start off as a designer breed.

Back in the day that (the breeds you mentioned) started off, there was no such thing as a designer dog that people would give anything to have. Dogs were bred for a purpose. The Bichon started off in another country and was "adopted" into another culture, whether that be through invading a country or whatever. The point is, that it was not intentionally bred to be what it is, as you say.

This is something that will not get us anywhere. You think what you will....and I'll research. Let's agree to disagree...shall we?

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 12:59 PM
Thank you GSD. My information is only as accurate as the publisher of my book. And may i say that i wrote it word for word.

You can go on five different sites and in five different books and not any two will be exactly the same. Believe me I have tried.

A simple posting stating origins of dogs was blown way out of control.

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 01:12 PM
I'm sorry if your book has been "bashed" or your feelings hurt. It wasn't intentional. Sorry. BUT.... the information I posted was from clubs dedicated to the specific breeds I posted about. I did not quote other than reputable sources.

You're right, though, when you say that there are too many different versions of stories about origins on the Net. I'm extremely adept at the Internet, and can get around with great ease and find information on a variety of subjects (if anybody needs anything looked up....let me know!). What I posted was factual, whether you believe it or not.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but you're the one who started the thread by posting origins of dogs. I only filled in the facts.

meowzart
February 25th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Thanks for the interesting information on the history of different dog breeds. Some breeds I remember reading I forget which breed) were even intentionally bred to be 'lap dogs' for royalty - I guess that's a job :confused: ...chief lapwarmer :lol

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 02:37 PM
"The Papillon is related to several toy spaniels, and it is difficult to ascertain when it became a separate breed. The dog is one of several developed during the height of royal reign in Europe as a lap dog for the ladies of the court, for the royal families were the only ones who could afford to buy and breed dogs solely as companions."

Source: canismajor.com

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 02:42 PM
My original post only indicated the breeds that were mixed in order to obtain the new breed.

AKC AND CKC have lots of conflicting information as well as standards As well as dog books and enclyopedia's/

My only comment regarding breeding purpose was that they were not all breed with a pupose in mind. Many many were breed only for pleasure reasons, and my only breed related comment start out with answering mastiff lovers comment about breeding dog that fit into your purse. Which has been going on for centuries.

And as a note, we should learn from our past and not repeat it in the future. Breeding dogs for pleasure pursposes or only for money should not be repeated and should be stopped.

Lucky Rescue
February 25th, 2005, 02:44 PM
for a chi to be a true chi, it must be under 2 lbs

Where did this information come from please? Not from the AKC/CKC. Under 2 lbs would be an out of standard size, or a runt. The label "teacup" is given to make people think they are getting something rare or valuable so they will pay more.

Most the sporting/working/hunting dogs we have now were created for a purpose, and only dogs who excelled in their tasks were put in the breeding program - in other words, the best of the breeds. Dobermans were not bred just to look intimidating, but to have the temperament and ability to take a person down. Even the tiny toys were bred to be lap dogs, and that was their job.

Buying a cocker spaniel and a poodle at a petstore or puppy mill, breeding them and calling first-generation offspring "cockapoos" and charging 1500$ does not make them a breed. These dogs are being bred for NO other purpose than to make money for their "breeders". Period.

mastifflover
February 25th, 2005, 02:49 PM
Just curious who would want a dog that weighed 2 pounds or less, My god I would step on the poor thing.

BMDLuver
February 25th, 2005, 02:53 PM
Just curious who would want a dog that weighed 2 pounds or less, My god I would step on the poor thing.
I agree, those little tiny things make me very nervous.... so darn fragile. Give me a 140+lber any day!

twinmommy
February 25th, 2005, 02:56 PM
PUHLEEEZE don't tell Gypsy that 2lb dogs exist!! (Her self-esteem and all!!) :D :D

mastifflover
February 25th, 2005, 02:56 PM
Me too the bigger the better more to cuddle with and great feet warmers when you come in from the cold

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 02:58 PM
When we took Diamond in for her photo with Santa, there was a woman who had the smallest chis I'd ever seen. They both looked like thier legs were bent out of shape, thier backs were crooked, and they looked pathetic. They were "teacup" chis. I felt so sorry for the poor little things. The woman even said they were having a "good day" that day.

Very sad that someone made money breeding substandard chis to make the smallest possible dog and charge upwards of $1000 per dog (which is the average price found on the net). Very sad indeed.

If I can help, in the least, at least one person know what thier dog is SUPPOSED to look like, should grow up to be like, and how to care for it, I've made my concious proud and I can sleep at night. If I were like the breeders of "teacups" I don't think I could look in a mirror or sleep at night.

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 03:20 PM
LR, my information was based on the original breed of the dog, before AKC and CKC ever even evolved. What the kennel clubs now call breed desciptions are not as they once were. the breed descriptions are for the perfect dog, from the teeth, to coat, to body structure etc. The kennel clubs even state how ears and tails should be cropped and we all know that that is now how a breed is born it is altered by us.

Quote
"The creator of this mixture was a germany tax collector named Louis Dobermann. Dobermann had to travel frequently to different areas and decided to construct a watchdog and bodyguard capable of handling any situation that might arise. Bearing the name of its origintor (Shortened by one n), the Doberman was first present at a dog show in 1876. It was immediately a big sucess. The breed was developed in Germany in 1860."

You are right about the name Teacup. Yes it is made to think that they are getting something rare and valuable. As back in China before the nineteenth century, they were indeed very very valuable, if weighing in under two pounds they were widely sought after by royalty and after which anyone who owned a chi under two pounds was known to have a very valuable dog. They became very sought after. Originally even before China the chi was native to Mexico and that is were it got is name. It is named after the Mexican state of Chihuahua.

The AKC was founded in 1884 and only started to document, approve and label breeds at that time.

Again I will repeat, I never once stated that I agree with what is happening today with our dogs. I do not believe that dogs should be breed for pleasure or money.

GsdDiamond
February 25th, 2005, 03:34 PM
Where did you get your quote from? I got my information from the Doberman Pinscher Club of America. The only place I've found, so far, that lists Louis Dobermann of Apolda as a Tax Collector is a breeder of Dobermans.

Just curious is all.

Lucky Rescue
February 25th, 2005, 05:49 PM
I understand completely that you are not condoning breeding mutts for $$, but merely explaining the origin of breeds as you know it. I know all about my pit bull's fighting history, but certainly do not approve of it.

Dobermann had to travel frequently to different areas and decided to construct a watchdog and bodyguard capable of handling any situation that might arise

Correct. As I said, they had to do more than look intimidating, as "handling any situation" often included stopping irate taxpayers from attacking Dobermann and this statement is proof positive of that. The modern day Doberman has been mellowed out through selective breeding.

As back in China before the nineteenth century, (very small Chis) were indeed very very valuable, if weighing in under two pounds they were widely sought after by royalty and after which anyone who owned a chi under two pounds was known to have a very valuable dog. They became very sought after
Not much has changed. They had undersized and runty dogs then too. They are still sought after as they are not that common. Unscrupulous breeders have made them sound desirable, when in fact they are not. They are NOT valuable either, since a dog that size should not be bred. Standard sized, badly bred Chis already have a host of health problems, and I shudder to think what could go wrong with a badly bred runt.

Again - "for a chi to be a true chi, it must be under 2 lbs" is NOT correct information, and I wouldn't wish anyone reading this thread to think it is.

Little Angels
February 25th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Sorry LR if you don't agree but these are not my words but published words.

Lucky Rescue
February 25th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Oh it's a quote? That was not indicated. Can you please give the source? I'd really like to know who said that.

GsdDiamond
February 27th, 2005, 11:10 AM
Again - "for a chi to be a true chi, it must be under 2 lbs" is NOT correct information, and I wouldn't wish anyone reading this thread to think it is.

Very true. My information came from the AKC....a very reputable source.

mafiaprincess
February 27th, 2005, 11:39 AM
I've heard medical horror stories - my roomate's dad is a vet, of undersized chis literally stepping out of a house down a step, or something that wouldn't be considered dangerous to the majority of dogs and breaking limbs. But, I read all these 'teacup' posts of people desperate to have a teacup whatever and not seeing the numerous problems they could have.

Heck, I have a cocker spaniel puppy, who I'm starting to wonder if she'll be under the CKC height/ weight (I don't care, she's not for show) but my dad steps on her all the time and she's 6 months... I don't think a 2 pound chi would survive in most homes.

Oh, and I think the best is wanted ads for tiny dogs, like 'I'm a mother of 3- I have a 11 year old boy, and a 5 year old girl and a 4 year old girl and I want a teacup chi' those posts just strike horror in my heart for the fact that people like that probably never did any research at all into what breed would be good for their family.