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aggressive behaviour in german sheperds

auggie
February 21st, 2005, 11:27 AM
Have a 19 month old male german sheperd who is starting to show signs of agressiveness. He is not fixed and have completed 3 classes of obedience and couple of classes of flyball/agility for socializing purposes. When people come to visit, we put him in a sit and wait till our guest get settle, then we relase him, they go to pet him and he'll give a low growl or actually bark and be more agressive towards them. these people are not strangers and he has known them since he was 8 weeks old when we got him. He has the same action when he meets people on our walks when they want ot stop and pet him. He has just stared to act this way towards the trainers and the groomer who, would handle him touch him all the time. We had him checked out by the vet, he doesn't really know why he is acting this way (could possibly be the second stage of maturation) recommends getting him fixed, it might/or might not stop his agressiveness.

Is this a phase in his growing up and would pass (which I was told) or should I proceed to get him fixed??

Note: he was attacked by another dog and injured when he was about 9 months old.

thanks

twinmommy
February 21st, 2005, 11:41 AM
Where are you located? Tenderfoot is the best one to answer this..

Lucky Rescue
February 21st, 2005, 11:43 AM
I've read most bites come from adult intact males, so I would certainly get him neutered to start with.

You really need to get a behaviorist to come to your home and see exactly what is going on and what is motivating the aggression - fear, protectiveness, offensive/defensive or just unstable temperament caused by bad breeding - who knows. You need a professional for this, as aggression handled the wrong way can certainly make it worse.

We really can't advise on this issue over the net, it's too dangerous to do so. In the meantime, keep everyone (including your dog) safe by NOT allowing strangers to pet him outside, and keep him safely away from your guests if there is a chance he may bite.

Good luck and keep us up!

Carina
February 21st, 2005, 12:06 PM
Some dogs do not like being handled by strangers, so I wouldn't let complete strangers just come up and pet him. Some dogs simply don't like this, and shouldn't be forced into it IMHO. However he shouldn't ever bark or growl! It's up to you to protect him from being stressed, and other people from being alarmed or hurt by your dog.

Neutering probably will not make a big difference in how he acts with humans, but he's done with the bulk of his growing, so you should neuter him now anyhow.
How does he do around other dogs in agility & flyball as an intact teenage male? Usually dogs have to be really sociable to do those sports, especially flyball!

IMHO you need to consult with your trainers and probably increase the amount of obedience work you're doing with him. He's making up his own rules and disregarding your status as the head of the family in his interactions with other people. So working more with him in that regard should prove really helpful.
It's been my experience that some large breed dogs do go through a number of these assertive sateges as they mature, right up to 2-3 years of age. Especially if they were neutered late.

auggie
February 21st, 2005, 01:33 PM
My dog is really socialable around other dogs, he's been like that since the beginning. I don't let strangers handle him, but if they do ask to pet him, I won't let them. When we do meet strangers, I put him in a sit, but if they approach, he gives a low growl.

Thanks

GsdDiamond
February 21st, 2005, 01:36 PM
He needs to be neutered and to have behavioural training to curb his need to be in charge. Basically that's what he's doing when he growls....he's taking charge and letting the others know to heed him, not you.

My princess is also a GSD, but she knows her place. I'm the head of the pack and the most she'll do when she sees a stranger is to want to be petted. If she's in her yard, though, she'll bark with her hackles up, until I allow the person in. That's normal. Seek better training. Nip it in the bud now or it'll be a huge problem later on.

mastifflover
February 21st, 2005, 01:40 PM
I would definitely consider a behaviourist they could better assess the dog in its own enviroment. I would also neuter him one less chance of testicular cancer quite common among unneutered males.

heidiho
February 21st, 2005, 05:39 PM
Have to add my thoughts ,like they said PLEASE GET IT FIXED NOW, i HAD gsd that started with just little signs of aggression which started to lead to him at the top of the ored and i could not get it back to me being top dog,If you have the finances to do so i would ASAP.....................................

heidiho
February 21st, 2005, 05:39 PM
OOps spelled that wrong,order..

auggie
February 22nd, 2005, 12:47 PM
I would like to think everyone for their input. this was my first time to this bulletin board.

I have consulted with an animal behaviourist, and from what I told him, sound like it is a generic dominant disorder. Arranging to meet with him this weekend.

thanks again

heidiho
February 22nd, 2005, 12:52 PM
What is Generic dominant disorder??

Trinitie
February 22nd, 2005, 12:54 PM
If you do not neuter him, you're dealing with a ticking bomb. Male dogs, unaltered, are highly hormone driven. If he's already showing aggressive tendancies, then neutering him will aid in behavioral training.

Male dogs, unlike females, are more prone to aggression when left in an unaltered state.

Trinitie
February 22nd, 2005, 12:57 PM
What is Generic dominant disorder??

This means the dog has a genetic disposition to be dominant and has aggressive traits bred into him. It's a result of poor breeding - the breeding of dogs with faulty temperments.

This is another reason to have him neutered. If some puppy mill were get to get their hands on him, there would be an explosion of GSD's with aggressions - resulting in an increase in GSD related attacks - resulting in a possible BSL against GSDs.

Carina
February 22nd, 2005, 01:31 PM
This means the dog has a genetic disposition to be dominant and has aggressive traits bred into him. .

Genetic, or generic? These are two completely diffferent things.

Nothing wrong with dominance. That is not necessarily a "disorder." Some dogs are more dominant than others, is all.
If the dog had underlying aggressive issues, being intact, he would be aggressive towards other dogs. According to the OP, this is not the case, so I don't see any "disorder" here.

My guess is still the dog simply needs to have his training and obedience work intensified a bit. This doesn't sound like a "disorder", it sounds like a normal teenage working breed dog who simply needs remedial training. What you've described doesn't sound that difficult to deal with, and very common.

In case it's not clear, I am not comfortable with this whole disorder thing. It sounds bogus to me. Genetic or generic, whichever.

Trinitie
February 22nd, 2005, 02:05 PM
Genetic, or generic? These are two completely diffferent things.

I agree. I highly doubt, however, that the behaviorist called it a "generic" disorder. I'd bet it's a typo.

Nothing wrong with dominance. That is not necessarily a "disorder." Some dogs are more dominant than others, is all.
If the dog had underlying aggressive issues, being intact, he would be aggressive towards other dogs. According to the OP, this is not the case, so I don't see any "disorder" here.

If the dog is growling as people are walking up to the owner, there is indeed a problem. This is not a dominance issue as the owner has no problem with handling the dog. The dog, however, has issues with any other person. If the dog was bred from a faulty gene pool, then it definately is a problem! Just because the dog isn't attacking other dogs, doesn't mean that it doesn't have issues. An intact dog will almost certainly reign supreme over dogs that are altered, as it's the highest ranking member of the pack who is able to reproduce. A dog who is altered doesn't have the urge to try and climb the "social ladder" as a dog who's intact. Most likely, if they encounter another intact dog, there would most certainly be a fight.

My guess is still the dog simply needs to have his training and obedience work intensified a bit. This doesn't sound like a "disorder", it sounds like a normal teenage working breed dog who simply needs remedial training. What you've described doesn't sound that difficult to deal with, and very common.

It's not common for a dog to be ok with being handled one day, and to suddenly begin showing aggression. If nothing has changed in the home, and the owner is handling the dog as before, then it's entirely possible that this teenage dog had hit puberty and must be neutered before his mating instinct and high hormone levels cause this dog to attack someone.

In case it's not clear, I am not comfortable with this whole disorder thing. It sounds bogus to me. Genetic or generic, whichever.

Genetic faults do occur in dogs, and cats for that matter, and no matter the amount of training, there's just no "helping" the animal. Read post #8 in this (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=7093) thread. GsdDiamond recalls a puppy with a bad temperment from the time she brought the pup home. Is this a result of bad genetics? It's very likely. Has this happened to other people? You bet. Can the dog be saved? Sure, with the proper time and training. There are disorders we know nothing about. It's possible that simply neutering this GSD will calm him down enough for proper training to control his aggressions.

We're all entitled to our opinions, and if you think genetic disorders can't cause the problems this dog is having, that's your opinion.

Phew - I think I got carpel-tunnel! (sp?)

heidiho
February 22nd, 2005, 02:25 PM
Yeah i know what genetic is,but it said generic,so i wasnt sure never heard of that,,

Carina
February 22nd, 2005, 03:23 PM
LOL Trinitie, sorry about the carpal tunnel! :)

I'm not saying I doubt there is a genetic component to various behaviours, of course there is. All behaviour is in part genetic. And yes, there are such disorders as rage syndrome, overly aggressive dogs, etc.

The reason I am saying I do not think it's the case in this case is,
1: The dog is apparently fine with other dogs. If this dog had somne "aggression" syndrome, no way would it - as an intact young male dog - be sociable enough to participate in flyball and agility, for goodness sake! Non-aggressiveness towards other dogs is mandatory for flyball. Neutering is a good idea sure, but I doubt it has much to do with the dog's behaviour towards people.

2: This is a common problem with some breeds and the issue is virtually always a matter of training, rarely some disorder. If that were the case, then over half of the independent working breeds on the planet would have the same disorder. Including a couple I have owned, and who were easily taught to mind thier manners.

The OP can't handle the dog, that is why he is asking this question, and why he's seeing a behaviourist! The dog is taking matters into his own hands because he does not have sufficient respect for his handler. This is why my suggestion was increase training, with the help of someone knowlegable.

Anyhow, I stand firm on my opinion here - I am 99% sure I am correct in my assessment, given the info provided - so we can respectfully agree to disagree. :) Or, it comes down to semantics - what some are calling a "genetic disorder" I would more likely call a "genetic disposition" - certainly not a disorder, which means an abnormality, loosely speaking. Retrievers are genetically predisposed to chase tennis balls, Terriers dig, sighthounds chase - those are not disorders, they are dispositions, and easily managed.

Note. A more likely somatic cause would be thyroid or adrenal disorder. Dr Jean Dodds is conducting a longitudinal study on this now; my vet has several dogs in his practice who are "test" subjects for the study.

It's also probably not the case that the dog "suddenly" started acting this way. I'm sure there were signs that weren't picked up on for some time.

Trinitie
February 22nd, 2005, 04:16 PM
There are far more knowledgable people than I in the world. It appears you have more experience with dogs, and I respect that.

I know less about dogs than most people here, I'm sure. I thought you were saying your didn't believe in genetic disorders, not that you didn't think this was one.

I know when to stay out of the discussion, especially when I need to ice my wrists.

I'd like to suggest, however, that the OP should DEFINATELY neuter the dog. It will make training much easier in the long run, whether the dog has temperment problems or not. A male dog, with too many hormones, is an accident waiting to happen, especially if there's a dominance issue.

:grouphug:

Carina
February 22nd, 2005, 04:23 PM
when I need to ice my wrists.

:grouphug:

May I share your ice pack? :D
oh yeah on the neutering thing....he's old enough now. ;)

Spurby
February 22nd, 2005, 06:07 PM
I am just wondering about the behaviourist, seems strange to me that they would give an assessment over the phone/e-mail without seeing the dog, even just guessing it..there could be many different reasons why this dog is acting this way, no way to tell for sure until they see this dog in person with the handler. Unless this is comman practise? I haven't dealt with many trainers..just a few, but none of them would say anything until they saw the dog.

Lucky Rescue
February 23rd, 2005, 10:53 AM
sound like it is a generic dominant disorder.

Dominance is NOT a "disorder" - no matter if it's genetic or generic, but merely a personality trait with some dogs, as it is with some people.

Barking, growling or threatening people for no reason is NOT a sign of a dominant personality. In fact, truly dominant dogs are so confident they feel no need to put up an aggressive display. This is fear and/or outright aggression.

I would not consult with this trainer or behaviorist!!

doggy lover
February 24th, 2005, 07:56 AM
Did you not say that the dog reacts to people approacing you, is it not trying to protect you? I had a shepperd cross Bernese and it was ok for kids to come up to us but adults was another thing especially men, so I never let men come and try to stroke him, in his 9+ years he never bit anyone but he would get upset when adults approaced us on walks.

db7
February 28th, 2005, 04:25 PM
Dominance is NOT a "disorder" - no matter if it's genetic or generic, but merely a personality trait with some dogs, as it is with some people.

Barking, growling or threatening people for no reason is NOT a sign of a dominant personality. In fact, truly dominant dogs are so confident they feel no need to put up an aggressive display. This is fear and/or outright aggression.

I would not consult with this trainer or behaviorist!!

I ABSOLUTELY agree. Disorder?!?! Bunk! It's a guard/working dog for heaven's sake!

My pointer enters a trance (points) when it smells a game bird and it's near impossible to get her to snap out of it. And she will fetch/retrieve anything/anywhere for hours on end if allowed.

Sounds like she's got obsessive-compulsive disorder, maybe a mild case of autism. I'd better get her to the therapist to get her past this irrational behaviour.

Much more likely is fear. One thing that caught my attention is the ritual with visitors in the house. It all sounds good until you let the visitors approach the dog. WRONG way 'round. Go about having your tea, see to it your guests have doggy treats close at hand. Let the dog approach them on his terms, when the fear/stress level has naturally lowered.

He may never be thrilled with other people around, let him keep his distance and chances are he'll never be aggressive.

db7
February 28th, 2005, 04:27 PM
Oh, and I forgot to reinforce....

Get the dog fixed.

aussiemedogs
March 1st, 2005, 07:50 PM
[QUOTE=auggie]Have a 19 month old male german sheperd who is starting to show signs of agressiveness. He is not fixed and have completed 3 classes of obedience and couple of classes of flyball/agility for socializing purposes.

I have a male aussie who is just like that, I refuse to let it go as I need to be able to trust my dogs to a certain extent, what fun is it if you have to keep running away from people. My guy will growl at anyone that appoaches me, but I am very aware of my surroundings and always have complete control of his leash. I have stopped people neighbours, strangers etc........asked them to give my dog a treat, call his name and so on. I don't let a growl go unoticed and I correct him and tell him to be quiet. I don't encourage it by petting him and telling him its o.k.

To date he knows when I stop he is to sit, if I feel that he is going to growl I tell him quiet...happy to report he is doing very well. Now if you came into my home thats a different story.but were working on it. And he is neutured!

matt
March 15th, 2005, 06:35 PM
It is unlikely that neutering him will have any effect on aggression. A stable nerved , well trained dog neutered or not should never exibit this behaviour. It is actually your decision as the ALPHA how this dog should behave. I would not tolerate this behaviour at all. Would I correct this unwarranted aggression? Yes I would. I would also muzzle this dog while I was training him. It seems to me that this is a handler issue that can be solved with consistent obedience training. You can try to neuter him but without training I highly doubt you will see any change. Whether this issue is related to hormones or not it should not be accepted. It will not pass on it's own.

Trinitie
March 16th, 2005, 10:06 AM
Neutering the dog will help calm him somewhat. We're not saying to "not" train him, but neutering, in conjunction with training, is what this dog needs.

matt
March 17th, 2005, 03:06 PM
I would say focus on training/spend your $$ on that and THEN decide if you need to neuter. Neuter is not a NEED to do but a NICE to do. That is unless you a concerned about roaming. The "calming" effect of neutering is not present with all breed's of dogs, it calms some but not others. My male is 2 yrs old, intact and has high drives to work. He also is "trained" when to turn it off and settle down.

Prin
March 17th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Statistics prove that an intact male is 3 times more likely to bite than a castrated male. Hormones do have a serious effect in this issue. Testosterone causes aggression. It may not be the only cause of the aggression but the only way to rule it out is by castration.

I hate the use of the word "calm" for the effect of castration. I prefer to say that a dog that is not castrated is constantly stressed, searching constantly for territory and marking territory in hopes of attracting a mate and any female that walks through his territory is fair game, and castration removes that stressful, compulsive, physiologically driven aspect of his life. It doesn't affect his stamina, his energy level, or his desire to play, if he had it before. It will make him more sociable if it is done early enough. I feel to castrate is a need. Dogs that are castrated are totally different in all the good ways, and unless you plan to breed, there is no good reason to keep him intact.

Prin
March 17th, 2005, 05:43 PM
By the way, I have been looking at studies about dog aggression and genetics and the most comprehensive study was done in 1962 and it is seriously flawed. It is hard to say whether the aggression is passed through chromosomes or within the first few weeks of life. If you take an aggressive mom and allow her to raise puppies, chances are they will be aggressive regardless of their genetics. Everybody says that aggression can be inherited but the actual mechanism of acquiring aggression is not known.

matt
March 18th, 2005, 09:03 AM
I would actually like to see this study. I have NEVER come across a longitudinal study that supported this assertion. That is why it is not a 100% rule. No one has been able to support this in a peer reviewed study at all. Most of this is hypothetical or ceratinly NOT based scientifically. For every study you can find FOR neutering I can probably find one against.
I also would not agree that a dog intact is constantly stressed. The behaviours you describe do not sound like any of the males intact I have seen. Now if they are around a female in heat! That's a different story. I have an intact male and I do not recognize any of those behaviours you have described. In the training my dog is involved in I am around all intact dogs(male) and have never seen this "stress" you describe. These are also mostly high drive, dominant working dogs of various breeds.
Again, neuter if you feel the need but I will stick to my orignal assertion that goood , consistent training will VASTLY improve your dogs behaviour......and THAT is proven over time. :thumbs up

mona_b
March 20th, 2005, 01:36 AM
I would have him neutered.It is so much better for him health wise in the long run.. :)

Also,if he has just started this aggression,I know this may sound silly,but I would have a scan done on him just to be on the safe side.The reason I suggest this is a friend of mine had a gentle,loving Shilo Shpherd.Jetta all of a sudden became aggressive.He was a very well trained,Obedient dog.They couldn't figure out what happened.They had a brain scan done.The result was a blood clot in the brain.Dogs become aggressive for a reason.Even well trained,Obedient ones.

matt
March 20th, 2005, 09:27 AM
Yes , a WELL TRAINED, SOCIALIZED dog can become agressive for a reason - MEDICAL REASON. Otherwise it is very rare for a dog just to start becoming aggressive out of the blue except for what Mona has said about the possible health issue. My guess would be that this is not the case but better to be safe then sorry.
Once again, there is absolutely NO concrete, peer reviewed, medical evidence(other then some VET's opinions) that neutering is health benificial. As I said before ... One study FOR is equalled by one AGAINST. Use your own judgement hear and try not to be swayed by popular OPINION. :thumbs up

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 12:52 PM
So if you walk with your unfixed dog for 20 minutes, how often does he pee?

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 01:04 PM
I would actually like to see this study. I have NEVER come across a longitudinal study that supported this assertion. That is why it is not a 100% rule. No one has been able to support this in a peer reviewed study at all. Most of this is hypothetical or ceratinly NOT based scientifically. For every study you can find FOR neutering I can probably find one against.

The stats I got are from the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention Canada and the same in the US. Here are the stats from Canada:

-The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention document that a chained dog is 2.8 times more likely to bite than an unchained dog.
- Canines not spayed or neutered are three times more likely to bite than sterilized ones
- From 1979 to 1998, at least 25 breeds of dogs have been involved in bite related deaths.


And some other interesting ones from the US:
- Although pit bull mixes and Rottweilers are most likely to kill and seriously maim, fatal attacks since 1975 have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds

-Most of the patients bitten were under 15 years, with children, especially boys aged 5 to 9 years, having the highest incidence rate
- Children seen in emergency departments were more likely than older persons to be bitten on the face, neck, and head.
- 77% of injuries to children under 10 years old are facial.
Severe injuries occur almost exclusively in children less than 10 years of age.
- The majority of dog attacks (61%) happen at home or in a familiar place.
- The vast majority of biting dogs (77%) belong to the victim's family or a friend.
- When a child less than 4 years old is the victim, the family dog was the attacker half the time (47%), and the attack almost always happened in the family home (90%).


Those are my stats from the CDC. The study on dog aggression is called "Genetics and Social Behavior for the Dog" by Scott and Fuller.
Nuff references?

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 01:08 PM
Here is another study of 431 dog attacks in the US-- this is what they found:
- "Of the 28 single dogs responsible for a fatal attack between 2000-2001;
26 were males and 2 were females. Of the 26 males, 21 were found to be intact (the reproductive status of the remaining 5 males dogs could not be determined)."

Go here:
http://www.fataldogattacks.com/statistics.html

matt
March 20th, 2005, 03:20 PM
So Prin , now intact dogs are the ones that KILL! Give me a break , 26 dogs out of how many? Was it the fact that they were intact you think or MAYBE bred by some Bull*#% back yard breeder? :rolleyes: I can probably guess the breeds they were as well and am sure that many would probably like to BAN these breeds. These kind of stats are what has led Mr. Bryant to ban a certain breed here in Ontario and the city of Kitchener to put major restrictions on another breed! Sorry , you're going to have to come up with more than that(like what about some personal experience?) . So , NO... not enough references for me. Sorry. Do you think if I also search the WEB I could find a few studies to contradict the CDC study? Probably. The other study from the U.S did not refer to neutered dogs in their bite stats. Wonder why? I do enjoy this board and realize it is not a working dog board so I do not expect to alter(no pun intended :) anyone's point of view here. But I do enjoy the discussion just the same.

matt
March 20th, 2005, 03:25 PM
Prin, you also convieniently left out the author saying that these kinds of stats can be misleading due to HUMAN NEGLIGENCE and CRIMINAL INTENT! It does go on to give specifics. Now that's some fine print for you. ;) Enough said.

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Prin, you also convieniently left out the author saying that these kinds of stats can be misleading due to HUMAN NEGLIGENCE and CRIMINAL INTENT! It does go on to give specifics. Now that's some fine print for you. ;) Enough said.
Enough said? So the CDC stats are crap because you just don't want to acknowledge them? I guess this is one decision based on emotion and not on reason then.

matt
March 20th, 2005, 03:54 PM
No I do not recall saying that they are "crap". Don't put words in my mouth. :( What I am seeing is some potential to be mislead. Circumstances are CRITICAL . A back yard bred, weak nerved , bag of #*&! dog WHO MAYBE INTACT can be the aggressive one. BYb would not have a business if they fixed their dogs . Intact or not a dog as described above will be aggressive.
That was my point. :thumbs up

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 04:57 PM
you're going to have to come up with more than that(like what about some personal experience?

Ok how about the only dogs at my dog park to seriously injure another dog were all intact males. The park association is currently looking into having a park ban on any unfixed dogs. The only dogs who ever attacked my big Boo were all intact. He doesn't like some that are fixed but he has never fought with a fixed male ever before and no fixed male has ever provoked him.

How about how the intact males pee on the benches and on people's feet? The benches are deteriorating solely because of intact males peeing on the benches. In the 3 years I have been going every day, not once have I seen a fixed dog pee on the benches or on someone. There are so many other places they have to pee and they just don't go nearly as often.

All of the fights at the park last summer included an intact male. ALL.

All of the human fights that have occurred involved an owner of an intact male.

The two worst dogs that ever entered were an akita and a pitbull. The akita owner was a nice person, just clueless and the pitbull owner was a total menace to society and was prompty banned from the park by the police. (Both were intact).

There are about 300 members at my park and a lot more visitors.

It is a combination of the testosterone of an intact dog, the dominance of an intact dog in the presence of other dogs, and the type of owner who doesn't neuter their dog (who doesn't plan on breeding). Sorry if I stereotype but that is my personal experience. And along with that, all the dogs that were intact, that caused fights, had male owners.


I just found this:
Neutered male dogs are less apt to develop prostate cancer, and the risk of testicular cancers is eliminated. Up to 60% of older, intact dogs will get enlarged, painful prostates.

On the site: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/should_i_spay_or_nueter.htm
They don't state sources but it's something to look into.

matt
March 20th, 2005, 06:41 PM
When I mentioned personal experience I actually meant ... Have you ever owned , trained and handled an intact dog to REALLY know the difference ! It seems not. And you are basing your experience on a DOG PARK? That is something. Talk about a place where owners have little control over their dogs! The emotional argument seems to be coming from you Prin. It is too bad that you have been jaded by your dog park experiences and you base your opinions on that and a quote from a vet site.
Dog aggression is something that exists regardless .. sorry! And dominance exists in dogs intact or not! Yes intact males tend to display more dominance and when you let them all play together of course you may have issues! Add that and the fact that 90% of the people that I have seen using these parks would not know training if it bit them in the butt. (I'm sure you are not one of these as this is indeed a generalization) .
And the dog pee thing? Pleeease Prin. If you base your aggression/neutering theory on this then fine :confused: It does seem a tad weak though. This has gone from dog bites to urine interference :D And that is just great that the municipality is thinking of banning intact dogs .... that plays right into the bias on the PitBull ban in Ontario.. Congrat's! All these bans from people who do not have a clue. I'll bet that just like the pitbull ban , there will be zero support from the OVC, Ontario Vet Assoc. , etc. More fear mongering... watch out intact dogs on the loose in our gentle dog parks!! Until that gentle, little, altered poodle attacks another dog. What then? :D

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 06:48 PM
Wow you just take from a post whatever you want eh? You read it and it's like half goes out one ear and you hold on to whatever you can to attack with, all twisted up.

It's the DOG PARK ASSOCIATION that wants to ban intact dogs. NOT THE CITY. And it's because ALL the intact dogs that come in cause fights. NOT SOME. ALL.

And for the record, yes an intact dog peeing every 2 feet is annoying, is it the main reason to fix? By far not and I never said it was.

matt
March 20th, 2005, 07:15 PM
A little testy when we get challenged? Prin we can keep this civil can we not?
Did not try to twist but you include 50 things in every post so I'm just trying to catch up! Sorry..........DOG PARK ASSOCIATION!!! And every dog that gets into something is intact! Wow! That is a strong scientific link to intact dogs and aggression. :rolleyes: Go with that then Prin. :thumbs up Never mind the other studies you have quoted.
Too bad peeing every 2 feet annoys you. Tough. Get over it and stay focused on your own dogs. Life of a dog and not a reason to neuter. It's too bad you are put out by this. Dogs peeing is part of ...well .... being a dog! Much,much bigger fish to fry! And to be honest that last reason about the bothersome urination is enough to validate the limitation of your argument for me. ;) Maybe in the future we can both take things less personally and maybe emotionally. We can agree to disagree.

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 07:21 PM
A little testy when we get challenged? Prin we can keep this civil can we not?
Did not try to twist but you include 50 things in every post so I'm just trying to catch up! Sorry..........DOG PARK ASSOCIATION!!! And every dog that gets into something is intact! Wow! That is a strong scientific link to intact dogs and aggression. :rolleyes: Go with that then Prin. :thumbs up Never mind the other studies you have quoted.
Too bad peeing every 2 feet annoys you. Tough. Get over it and stay focused on your own dogs. Life of a dog and not a reason to neuter. It's too bad you are put out by this. Dogs peeing is part of ...well .... being a dog! Much,much bigger fish to fry! And to be honest that last reason about the bothersome urination is enough to validate the limitation of your argument for me. ;) Maybe in the future we can both take things less personally and maybe emotionally. We can agree to disagree.

Holy cow. You twist things around. Challenged? Seeing you twisting things to suit your attacks is not a challenge.

Our park, which is RUN by volunteers, we cut the grass, we empty the garbage, we plant the trees, we plant the grass, has had a history of intact male aggression. So the intact dogs in question will not be allowed in. Kids are not allowed in, either. These rules are put into place so the park is safer. You said it yourself that a bunch of intact dogs together is looking for trouble.

Banning intact dogs from our little park is in no way banning them from the world. Intact dogs have trouble in dog parks.

And yes, not fixed males pee EVERYWHERE. Neutered ones do not. They pee once every exit.

Twist that now.

matt
March 20th, 2005, 07:53 PM
Well Prin , let me untwist this one for you and then I will move on. That is just great that you do all of those things for your dog park. The fact that you seem to have no real personal experience with intact males that you have owned explains your position.
I just find it a real stretch to start now possibly banning intact males based on your dog park experiences. Don't look at the fact that there may be training issues with the owners... "fluffy" the mutt can get aggressive too! You know all of those bites that happen most often with the family pet , who I'm sure is usually fixed. Dog aggression is actually fairly natural. Like the little poodles next to me that seem to want to tear up my intact male and spayed female GSD's!
When you decide to "BAN" dogs because of subjective , personal experiences (not the same as having handled, trained) you get into real "unsafe" territory. Little science to suuport. The same kind of emotional based arguments were used to ban PitBulls in Ontario. And YES it is the same type of mentality. Banish these dogs to other places then our beloved dog parks. What will happen when "Fluffy" the mutt attacks someone? And you actually ban children from your park? I suppose that is for their safety? From what? That I have NEVER heard of. That to me goes to show you. I won't even touch that one. Sounds like the perfect, cleansed dog park. It sounds like you could actually teach people some tolerance and understanding of dog behaviour and maybe even how handle it . But that is now up to you.
Was that untwisted enough? :)

Prin
March 20th, 2005, 08:04 PM
When you decide to "BAN" dogs because of subjective , personal experiences (not the same as having handled, trained) you get into real "unsafe" territory. Little science to suuport. The same kind of emotional based arguments were used to ban PitBulls in Ontario. And YES it is the same type of mentality. Banish these dogs to other places then our beloved dog parks. What will happen when "Fluffy" the mutt attacks someone? And you actually ban children from your park? I suppose that is for their safety? From what? That I have NEVER heard of. That to me goes to show you.

Kids under 12 who come to the park with no parents can't have the strength to do something about a dog fight or a dog attack. The other visitors to the park are not there to babysit other peoples kids or to provide the main attraction at a petting zoo.

Dog parks are for SOCIAL dogs. If your dog comes to my park and starts bullying everyone and fighting with everyone, it will be banned too. There are a lot of dogs that have had issues in the park that have been asked to never come again, intact or not. There just have never been any intact dogs that came to the park and left without an issue. Maybe it's the neighborhood, whatever the reason, if your dog doesn't get along, he shouldn't be in dog parks. Period.

db7
March 27th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Banning intact dogs?! That's ridiculous. If you insist on banning something, ban in-obedient dogs.(read dogs with bad owners that don't have control of their dogs)

Ever been to a dog show? They're all intact, in a strange place, and in close quarters. There are almost never any problems.

Whether they have all their equipment or not is rarely a cause of aggression. With maybe the exception being two dams in heat, that's right, females, not males.

And anyone that takes their dam in heat to a dog park is just plain stupid.

Prin
March 28th, 2005, 02:21 AM
One difference is that a dog park in a run-down part of town is not going to have very many show dogs. We had one show Rottie who was intact and he was fine-- in the beginning... The owner brought him to socialize him a bit and he ended up attacking a pitbull, much to the surprise of the owner-- he his dog was super trained. He hasn't been back since. All of the other intacts who come in have owners with bad attitudes. (I'm not saying all intact owners have bad attitudes, I'm saying all the ones who come in our park have attitudes.) I have been going there every day for 3 years. There are hundreds of people there every week (some evenings in the summer there can be 40 people or more). And what I have seen and the fights I have broken up suggest that above all, intact males do not get along with castrated males unless the intact one is very submissive (RARE). Females argue, but the only fights that led to emergency clinic visits were between either two intact males or one fixed and one intact. The intact ones are always the common denominator.

If there was an exception, and there was one special intact dog who proves he is social enough to not cause the park to become aggressive, that person could present themselves to the committee and a decision will be made. But as a rule, when there is an intact male in the dog park when it is busy, there is trouble. Most stop coming after a couple of fights, but the rest keep coming even if their dog seriously hurts another dog and that is unacceptible.

So far I have yet to see one serious fight between castrated males at our park.

They're all intact, in a strange place, and in close quarters. There are almost never any problems

This is NOT a strange place. Dogs get very territorial at dog parks and dogs are running free at dog parks. At shows, I have never seen a dog running free, with the males having unrestricted access to females. It is totally not the same situation.

There is already a ban on "aggressive or dominant" dogs in general but most of the people who bring their intact males into the park enjoy the fact that their dog is dominant and ignore that rule (very subjective rule-- who can say if a dog is dominant or not? What some people consider dominance (humping for example), other people do not (they think it is "their horny instincts" and it's ok).

All I know is that I have broken up more dog fights than anyone this past year and ALL the major fights involved an intact male. That's it. We are all just trying to keep our dogs safe and quite frankly, I'm tired of breaking up fights that don't even involve my own dogs.

mona_b
March 28th, 2005, 11:00 AM
Ever been to a dog show? They're all intact, in a strange place, and in close quarters. There are almost never any problems.

And anyone that takes their dam in heat to a dog park is just plain stupid.

So true.But I do know of many who will actually not show their Dams when they are in heat. :)

db7
March 28th, 2005, 11:10 AM
I can't imagine trying to keep a dam in heat focused enough to score any points at a show, well, certainly not mine.

mona_b
March 28th, 2005, 11:42 AM
Soooooo true.They would be to focused on something else.... :D :p

Bandb
April 1st, 2005, 09:35 AM
He needs to be neutered and to have behavioural training to curb his need to be in charge. Basically that's what he's doing when he growls....he's taking charge and letting the others know to heed him, not you.

My princess is also a GSD, but she knows her place. I'm the head of the pack and the most she'll do when she sees a stranger is to want to be petted. If she's in her yard, though, she'll bark with her hackles up, until I allow the person in. That's normal. Seek better training. Nip it in the bud now or it'll be a huge problem later on.

We have a female GSD too. About 16 months old and her bahaviour is just like GsdDiamonds. Our family has had 3 other GSDs, all males. Two of them became quite aggressive later in life - neither were neutered. The aggression was never directed at humans tho and especially not friends, just other dogs, particlarly small ones. One male had a series of run ins with very territorial dogs in a new suburb and after being attacked as he went on walks with us, he became far more aggro. I think yours just need s a bit of redeucation as others have already said.

ClintCarnegie
February 27th, 2006, 02:50 AM
What is Generic dominant disorder??


Anyone who owns a GSD or did should know what that basic english means! these are the type of people we want to keep aggressive breeds away from, its not just young kids and their pitbulls ...some people amaze me :eek:

Dragonfly
February 27th, 2006, 04:36 PM
Anyone who owns a GSD or did should know what that basic english means! these are the type of people we want to keep aggressive breeds away from, its not just young kids and their pitbulls ...some people amaze me :eek:

Since the members of this forum are INTERNATIONAL - it is a bit superior on your part to assume that everyone understands basic English.

Let's please try not to be, shall we say, insulting.

Luvmypit
February 27th, 2006, 05:44 PM
I have read over and over and over again that unneutured/spayed dogs are more likely to bite. They have more of a hormone drive.

I just can't imagine why that is so unbelievable. No one is saying that all intact dogs are biters. Nope. Just that THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO BITE. That is fact! FACT FACT FACT!

All you have to do is google the benefits of nueturing/spaying.
I searched are dogs more likely to bite if intact. Guess what Humane societies and SPCA's popped up telling me they are. Centre for disease control ect...

Ofcourse stats are flawed but when more then one study that records bites and the situation around it you will find no matter what you want to argue that intact dogs specicially male are more likely involved.

happycats
February 27th, 2006, 05:51 PM
the original post in over a year old;)

LavenderRott
February 27th, 2006, 06:00 PM
I have owned more then one German Shepherd in my life and a couple of Rottweilers. While none of them were ever used for breeding, not all of them were altered. NONE of them were biters.

YOU CAN NOT OWN A LARGE, POWERFUL DOG AND NOT TRAIN IT!!!!

I belong to a large group of working dog owners online. These people show their dogs, and RARELY do we have members with aggression issues. Usually, if there is a question about aggression issues, it is from new members to the group with little or no experience with the breed.

Yes, intact dogs are more likely to bite. But look at the WHOLE picture. Intact dogs that are kept confined to the yard, with no training,and very little socialization are most likely to bite.

I have never heard of Generic Dominant Disorder. I will go a little research, but it sounds to me more like an excuse for poorly socialized dogs that bite.

Cymba's friend
March 21st, 2006, 03:25 PM
This is a subject dear to my heart as I have had German Shepherds most of my life. I would very strongly recommend that you read Jan Fennell's book The Dog Listener prefaced by Monty Roberts. She provides a very good insight on "dog language" as well as natural hierarchy which dogs have just like wolves, whether we accept it or not. Since we are part of the "pack" it is up to us to ensure that our dog recognises us as the Alpha dog, in a non-violent manner, and using the language that dogs (and not humans) understand. She addresses specifically things like aggressive behaviour (and what to do about it). I would add that neutering your dog will help on the "testosterone" level, however that alone, without professional and non-violent positive dog-oriented training, will not be sufficient. Jan Fennell's book is not only for German Shepherds of course, but it is for all dogs, and it is one of the best books I have read in a long time. Let us know how it goes.

baronsmom
August 27th, 2006, 04:02 PM
Sorry to hear about your pup.. I can say from personal experience with dog aggression, I HIGHLY recommend that you neuter your dog and get behavioral training. I had to put my dog down in feb. this yr because of the same issue. Although I had a bull terrier, the same rules apply. My situation had to deal with bad breeding (I'm not the breeder) as well as she thought she was the boss...and she was. Finally I said enough when she went to bite me. It all started with a growl like you've stated, even when I went to pet her.
We had several trainers but nothing worked.
Once your dog has established dominance, it only gets worse. Some advice............... give your dog a lot of exercise, make your dog do something for you before you praise it..sit,down, whatever. Do not free feed.. your dog should have about 30 min. to eat, if he doesn't, you pull it away until the next time. Do not let him/her on the couch or bed... EVER! WHen walking your dog, he/she needs to be on your left side and make sure to not let the dog tug on the leash or he/she will get corrected. Always walk
1st. through the door BEFORE your dog does.
Some might say it's harsh, but it's really not if you want to keep your dog. ***I highly recommend the book by Caesar Millan, The dog whisperer.***
Hope this was some help...good luck!

Prin
August 27th, 2006, 04:17 PM
This is a really old thread... I'm not sure the OP's coming back.:shrug:

MaryAndDobes
August 30th, 2006, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE=How about how the intact males pee on the benches and on people's feet? [/QUOTE]

I haven't read through this whole thread so perhaps this has been addressed. Intact males and inappropriate peeing is largely a training issue.

I have a male here who was neutered last year when he was 7. I have another intact male who is nearly 4. My males do not pee on every post - they are not allowed to. They are trained that way from the get-go. When I give them a slack leash and tell them "go pee", that's when they pee. If they are trained not to mark from the beginning, it's controllable.

I show my dogs, I trial my dogs in obedience, I'm running agility with the younger male. I can't have them peeing whenever they're off leash so they are taught from the beginning.

Blame owners for inappropriate marking, not the dogs. They were just never taught.