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k9 cops, those magnificent beasts

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 11:00 AM
K9 dogs, those intriguing creatures that, sniff out bombs, drugs, locate children, protect and serve, and so much more, have always amazed me. How do they do it?

It was suggested that, Rescue dogs could be used as K9 cops, is there truth to this? Many dogs that end up in rescues/shelters have suffered a trauma of some sorts, whether it be beatings, isolation, or just simple rejection of their owner, they have suffered a traumatic experience. Traumatic experiences can lead to severe psychological issues in a dog. Much like humans who can suffer 'trauma related amnesia', dogs too, can suffer the very same affliction. I've heard repeatedly that, dogs have no memory, I disagree with this to some extent. Dogs remember through instinct, they do have memory, it just manifests itself in the animals 'instinct for survival'. A dog that is severely beaten will, most likely, end up 'hand shy'. These dogs can be retrained, but their underlying psychological afflictions will remain, even if it's in the 'back of it's mind', rendering the dog a 'smoking gun'.

What makes a good K9/protection dogs? What temperament do they require? What age does training begin? Does training a dog for protection make some of these larger breed dogs more stable? These are just a few questions I would like to discuss.

Dar.

twodogsandacat
February 20th, 2005, 11:20 AM
These dogs can be retrained, but their underlying psychological afflictions will remain, even if it's in the 'back of it's mind', rendering the dog a 'smoking gun'.
Yes but sometimes the most abused dogs are suited well for other tasks (although not attack work - imagine the lawsuits). That DOES include pit bulls. A dog that our government wants to ban instead of the behavior of those that abuse these dogs.

Popsicle:
During an arrest two years ago, Buffalo policeman Ron Clark, Jr. opened an abandoned freezer on a known drug dealer's back porch and found a bulging black garbage bag. "I poked my flashlight at it," he recalls, "and it started moving. My worst fear was that it was a baby."
In fact, it was a puppy, a pit bull who would be known as Popsicle and -- in a lovely ironic twist-- would gain fame for sniffing out the kind of bad guy that nearly killed him.
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/articles/popsicle.html

Dakota:
A top rated Search and Rescue dog saved from dog fighters.


More Here:
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/HeroicPitties/HeroicPitties.htm

Memory: Gorilla's do. Coco remembers her parents murder and her capture and can tell the story. I caught Animal Planet when I was in the states last week and this was an amazing tale of a Gorilla taught to speak using hand singles. How she puts those signals together makes it a language.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Well my brother has been a K9 cop for 24 years now.And this is something I do know about.And being on the force I deal with the K9 Unit.

Their training starts at 18 months.My GSD Tron is a retired Police Dog.He was my brothers partner..I started his basic training when I got him at 12 weeks.His commands where taught in German.Thank got my mom lived in Germany for 10 years.She helped with the words. :)..I had to get Tron used to everyone and everything.And all sorts of noises.That included fireworks,and loud noises.Once he turned 18 months,my brother took him.Yes it was hard.But I still got to see him.I still had my other GSD Yukon.

Then he started SchH.There are 3 parts to this.Obedience,Tracking and Protection.The must pass each stage.The final stage to get SchH III is the protection.

These dogs come from reputable breeders.These breeders dogs are titled with SchH III.Both sire and dam have been health and genetic tested,and x-rayed.And temperment tested.The pups are handled alot.Sire is usually imported from Europe.

These dogs must NOT show any aggression what so ever.They are trained not to attack,but to "hold"

Here are a few pics of my babies.I lost my Yukon in Sept.

Tron is the one sitting.

Forgot to mention...SchH I starts at 18 months,SchH II 19 months and SchH III 20 months.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 11:47 AM
here is another one.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Sorry to hear about Yukon, they are nice looking Sheps. Mona, Thank you for the info, These dogs are incredible. I've read up on some differences between the French ring and Schutzhund, which do you believe to be the better training? Could my Doberman go through a similar training?

Twodogs and the cat,

That is the coolest story I've ever read on animals. Thanks for the read.


Dar.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 12:04 PM
Thank you..I do still miss him. :sad:

I have also done research on the both.To be honest,I still like the SchH.There is alot more to the French Ring.

Could your Dobe do it?Sure.But you need to remember that he has to pass the Obedience.How old is he/she?How are the basic commands?Sit,stay,down,heel,leave it and so on.How old is your Dobe?

I never did obedience with any of my dogs.I did all the training.

twodogsandacat
February 20th, 2005, 12:05 PM
I understand that but it is still true that rescued dogs that have shown the required drive have exceeded when given the oppotunity and are working today in law enforcement.

Many forces do it exactly as you say they do while others with more cash available such as the RCMP run thier own breeding program (and sell off those not suited). Others buy them, our regional police have trained dogs for other forces (Shepherd of course). Still the question was can rescued dogs perform these tasks and the answer is yes. They can be used for some of the roles although I have yet to hear of one that has trained as an attack dog probably due to the reasons you have stated - temperment. Many rescue dogs performing these tasks may not work closely with the public and a proven temperment may not be as necessary as in cases when the dog is working off leash.

For scent work many dogs have been shown to out perform the GSD but I'm sure that the GSD will remian the dog of choice when a dog is 'raised' for the role. Also it is the ideal all around utility dog. As a breed they can't be beat but there may be an 'under dog' that will put them to shame in a particular role just as there is always a faster gun. This is why beagles and pits are used to sniff out drugs - they exceeded when given the chance and they performed better than other candidates. It happens. Do I expect to see cop cars outside the shelters now - no. Somebody took a chance and they won but I'm sure there are also a lot of failures.

Now if you need a dog to track cookies - I've got a pointer you should see.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 12:08 PM
Thank you..I do still miss him. :sad:

I have also done research on the both.To be honest,I still like the SchH.There is alot more to the French Ring.

Could your Dobe do it?Sure.But you need to remember that he has to pass the Obedience.How old is he/she?How are the basic commands?Sit,stay,down,heel,leave it and so on.How old is your Dobe?

I never did obedience with any of my dogs.I did all the training.

*sigh* He's only 3 weeks old, we haven't gotten him yet. I will get back to you on this though.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Awwwwwwww 3 weeks old.Bet you can't wait to get him home?

Please do get back to me.. :)

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 01:51 PM
You're right.It happens all over the world.Temperament is not an issue with many forces,they will turn down dogs that are not "aggressive" enough.Many K9s the public are not able to approach.The dogs are on duty,and not supposed to be approached.These are working dogs not lap dogs.Smaller and cash strapped forces will train their own,get a rescue or shelter dog,or get from a local breeder.Serious established k9 units get them from New York,they are imported from the Czech Republic.

Sheps have not cornered the market as you said,I have a rescue update on some rescued Pits, Labs and Beagles that have been trained and worked in many, many areas across the US.Warms your heart to think of what rescues can do,when someone has a little faith and wants to help dogs in need.
Others buy them, our regional police have trained dogs for other forces (Shepherd of course). Still the question was can rescued dogs perform these tasks and the answer is yes. They can be used for some of the roles although I have yet to hear of one that has trained as an attack dog probably due to the reasons you have stated - temperment. Many rescue dogs performing these tasks may not work closely with the public and a proven temperment may not be as necessary as in cases when the dog is working off leash.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 02:38 PM
[QUOTE=LL1]Temperament is not an issue with many forces,they will turn down dogs that are not "aggressive" enough.
QUOTE]

And who told you that?????

They do not look for aggressive dogs at all.And yes temperment plays a key role in these dogs.They do not want an aggressive dog.And I know of a few who didn't make it because they were to aggressive.

No they are not allowed to mingle with the public.BUT,they do have them coming into the schools,have public awareness in the comunities.Then,yes they do mingle.These are family dogs.They go home with the handlers and be part of the family.And they are great with kids.

I know of an amazing breeder who has supplied the K9 Unit in 21 cities in Ontario with their dogs.Some include Barrie,Toronto,Waterloo,Durham,Peel,Cobourg,York Region,Midland,Halton.These are just a few.I can go on.

twodogsandacat
February 20th, 2005, 03:35 PM
I'd have to agree that in Canada and the USA today that would most likely be the case but not always and hopefully not ever in Canada. In fact many of these dogs do actually visit local schools (yes there has been the odd incident - I have to admit I watch RealTV once in a while) and are extremely 'stable'. They know when they are working.

Still police forces across time and borders have sought out aggressive dogs. they were used on African Americans in Birmingham. South Africa used agressive dogs during Apartheid and in fact some police were finally charged with using innocent blacks to train the dogs to attack.


Also police dogs have both attacked police and have been shot by mistake by police.

The real issue is that once again it is the mentality on the other end of the leash that counts most.

Don't discount this first page due to it's title:Repression and Police Dog Abuse
http://www.geocities.com/ericsquire/articles/dogs.htm
http://www.geocities.com/ericsquire/articles/dogshist.htm

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 03:44 PM
I have to agree with Mona, Prior to Mona's assistance I purchased a book on Dobes and training, they specifically mention in the book that the Dobes temperament should not be aggressive and he should be well socialized to every little thing possible, including Humans of all ilks. It also mentioned that if the dog is aggressive or overly dominant he should not be trained for protection.


Dar.(looking for elucidation)

twodogsandacat
February 20th, 2005, 04:18 PM
I would like to say that all dogs used in all the services are heroes in my eyes. They do what they are asked to do without question. There is no right or wrong in the dogs eyes, that judgment will always fall upon the person at the other end of the leash.

I once got lost on a web search and discovered a site on 'war dogs'. In Vietnam these dogs were left behind at the end of the war. An unbefitting end. They were so effective at saving lives that the bounty on a US service dog was far higher than that on a uniformed soldier.

There were objections to a memorial at the mall in Washington as the bodies of men lay there and some find that disrespectful. In the eyes of those who served with them that is where they truly belong. Still there are plans for a national monument.

Will dogs be left behind again or just thrown out to pasture? No, Bill Clinton finally signed a piece of legislation allowing qualified service persons to adopt them at the end of their work life.

Sorry to take it off topic but these dogs do deserve our admiration.

BTW: I do not understand however how so much time and money can be spent on a dog and a vest to protect it has to be donated by some child's fundraising effort. This was the recent case in a Canadian city.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 04:39 PM
if the dog is aggressive or overly dominant he should not be trained for protection.

This is so very true.This would be like having a loaded gun.And is not good.And this also goes for the GSD.The K9 dogs are not trained to kill or mame.They are trained to "hold".Once they go after a person,they either knock them down,or grab a hold of the arm or leg,then to hold.There were many times when Tron could have ripped someone apart,but did he?No casue that was not what he was trained to do.Also,when he retired and I took him,I never ever had a problem with him.He was great with people and kids.This is why I have said before that these dogs are not just working dogs,they are part of the family.

When these dogs are going through training as pups,the main thing that is done is that they needed to be socialized big time.I will still put Tron through a little routine.You know,good guy bad guy.... :D

My brother has another "partner"...His name is Dante.He is also a GSD.We would go to see him and I would bring Yukon and Tron.He is the sweetest dog.But that's one thing about these dogs.Play is play,but work is work.And they know the difference. :)

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 04:46 PM
[QUOTE=twodogsandacat]Will dogs be left behind again or just thrown out to pasture? No, Bill Clinton finally signed a piece of legislation allowing qualified service persons to adopt them at the end of their work life.QUOTE]

Actually,the majority of these dogs actually do stay with the handlers.

With me,I actually told my brother once Tron retires,if it's possible I would like him back.He had no problems with that.Plus he knew Tron would rather spend the rest of his living years with his cuz Yukon.I just didn't expect Yukon to leave us so soon.

twodogsandacat
February 20th, 2005, 04:51 PM
[QUOTE=twodogsandacat]Will dogs be left behind again or just thrown out to pasture? No, Bill Clinton finally signed a piece of legislation allowing qualified service persons to adopt them at the end of their work life.QUOTE]

Actually,the majority of these dogs actually do stay with the handlers.


Sorry I was talking about the bill which Clinton signed regarding military dogs not police dogs. I believe that is pretty much a standard practice regarding police dogs and that's the way it should be. Sorry to hear about your loss.

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 04:52 PM
You're wrong.I have met many k9s and have helped shelters with the criteria for what police will take.One was just turned down for being too young and not aggressive enough,the shelter had called them as they felt he was too aggressive for adoption.Which breeder is that that you refer to?
[QUOTE=LL1]Temperament is not an issue with many forces,they will turn down dogs that are not "aggressive" enough.
QUOTE]

And who told you that?????

They do not look for aggressive dogs at all.And yes temperment plays a key role in these dogs.They do not want an aggressive dog.And I know of a few who didn't make it because they were to aggressive.

I know of an amazing breeder who has supplied the K9 Unit in 21 cities in Ontario with their dogs.Some include Barrie,Toronto,Waterloo,Durham,Peel,Cobourg,York Region,Midland,Halton.These are just a few.I can go on.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 05:01 PM
You're wrong.


I am FAR from being wrong.And you can argue with me all you want about this.This is something I know for a fact.

Like HELLO,my brother is a K9 officer.So I guess he's wrong also???????

Ummm sorry,unless I get permission from this breeder,I cannot give out the name.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 05:01 PM
http://www.leerburg.com/
http://www.caradobe.com/schdobe.html

Some reading on Protection/K9 dogs. These are professionals. I've spent my day reading about this, everyone says the same thing.

Dar.

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Funny that.I knew you would not say.You have no facts.Yes small forces as I said will use local breeders and some use rescue.What did you miss?Oh wait,are you goung to tell us about licensed breeders again with all your CKC experience?Wait,you were wrong then too weren't you.What facts do you know Mona?Do tell.
I am FAR from being wrong.And you can argue with me all you want about this.This is something I know for a fact.

Like HELLO,my brother is a K9 officer.So I guess he's wrong also???????

Ummm sorry,unless I get permission from this breeder,I cannot give out the name.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 06:18 PM
I have facts...And I don't have to prove Jack S^^T to you.

I am not going to give out info of a certain breeder unless I get the OK.

Just like you won't give out what rescue you are with????That's if you even are in rescue...

You like to stir up things on here don't you??????

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Mona,

I just pulled this off a site;

Basic canine characteristics such as SELF-CONFIDENCE, IRRITATION LEVEL, and NERVE COSTUME also are playing their part in the foundation of a good Schutzhund.

By this I take it that they are referring to a stable dog in temperament, wouldn't an aggressive dog lack confidence and have a high irritation level?

Dar.

twodogsandacat
February 20th, 2005, 06:48 PM
Confidence and agressiveness?

I believe both will allow a dog to bite but an aggressive dog may bite when you don't want it too and not bite when you do want it too. A confident dog isn't afraid to bite while an aggressive dog may bite becasue it is afraid. I also think the word 'Agressiveness' indicates 'free thinking' on the part of the dog.

Isn't this really similar to the difference between courage and stupidity (reckless abandon)?

Just asking?

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 06:54 PM
By this I take it that they are referring to a stable dog in temperament, wouldn't an aggressive dog lack confidence and have a high irritation level?

Most definately...

When doing SchH,they will not accept an aggressive dog.The first part of
SchH is Obedience.If the dog fails that,it can not go on to SchH II.

Here are some of the facts LL1..

Special Thanks to some of our clients in Canada that have allowed us to provide them with their very own P.S.D.'s.



City of London Police Halton Regional Police Durham Regional Police Saint John, NB Police

Thunder Bay Police Peel Regional Police City of Toronto Police City of Barrie Police

Guelph Police Waterloo Regional Police South Simcoe Police York Regional Police

Quinte West Police Midland Police Halifax Regional Police Calgary Police

Chatham/Kent Police Cobourg Police R.C.M.P. O.P.P.

Also Thank you to the many Police Departments from the U.S.A. and to all of our other clients from North America that have supported us through the years, and have made us who we are today.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Isn't this really similar to the difference between courage and stupidity (reckless abandon)?

Just asking?

Hmmm! I think you're on to something. I'm not sure I'd say stupidity I'd go with 'apprehensive'.

Dar.

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 07:17 PM
I didn't ask to prove anything.Foul language means nothing to me.As I said,small forces use Ontario bred dogs or on occasion rescues.Established ones use Czech imports from a man in NY.You ust proved that.Thank you.I'm not stirring anything up.I post facts.For the dog who was too young and not aggressive enough for a K9,call Barrie SPCA it was their dog,an owner surrender.Call the Whitby K9 unit and ask them why they said no.I may have the names at my desk at work. You love the breed,get involved in rescue.We all could use your help.I am a big dog person and work closely with many of the large dog rescues when needed,Rotts,Bouvs,Gsds,Berners,Pits,you name it.We all help out and are involved when needed and know most of what goes on before a dog lands in rescue.That's just what we do.I like to be anonymous due to the nasty language and posts here,Lucky knows who I am and my rescue and what i do,as does Spurby.I don't need your approval.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 09:30 PM
As I said,small forces use Ontario bred dogs or on occasion rescues.Established ones use Czech imports from a man in NY.You ust proved that.Thank you.

Don't thank me.I didn't prove anything.She was thanking her clients in the States.THEY have her dogs.NOT the other way around.And I have also stated that these breeders,including mine,have their dams inported.And I mean right from Europe not from someone in NY.They come straight from Germany,the Czech and Denmark.

twodogsandacat
February 20th, 2005, 09:47 PM
I hate to do this as you two seem pretty tied up in this but I have a Rhodesian mix and my brother who works for one of those Ontario police forces mentioned (for twenty years) has said my dog looks a lot like one of their dogs. This was two years ago.

Now he's not a dog guy but there is no way he'd confuse a Shepherd up with any tall reddish shorthaired mutt that resembles my dog (My sister also had a Shepherd which attained most of those certifications - so we know what a Shepherd looks like and a canine officer lives on the same street as he does). I don't know what role that dog filled but it may indicate that one of those mentioned forces isn't exclusive (or wasnít) and may occasionally source out local talent.

Isnít there room on this subject to disagree? How many forces are there and how many different jobs for dogs are there?
.

happycats
February 20th, 2005, 09:57 PM
twodogsandacat, I have also heard of both being used.
That the Toronto metro police use german imports, yet in my area (Durham) they use some local breeders as well as shelters.
there are so many regions, so chances are not all of them do the same thing.
so Mona b amd LL1 you both could be correct. (truce??) ;)

twodogsandacat
February 20th, 2005, 10:15 PM
So how about a story of a police dog. It would sound better if I said I read it but I didn't. As I mentioned I ocassionaly watch RealTV. Still it is an example of how far a dog will go to protect it's partner. A drug dog (without body armour) and an officer went out to serach a location and they arrived ahead of the other units - that's a screw up. The suspect was there and disarmed the officer who ended up on the ground in front of the car video. The sniffer dog although not trained to attack did and he was pistol whipped. He got back up and went for the guy again as the guy tried to fire some shots- the gun jammed or otherwise didn't go off. He pushed the dog off again. While this was happening the tape which didn't catch the out of sight video did catch the cries and yelps of the dog trying to do what it didn't hadn't been trained to do - he was really taking a beating.

As the guy worked on clearing the gun and beating off the dog the cop managed to pull a back up weapon (American police often do this I don't know if Canadians do or are even allowed) and shot the guy.

All in all it was hard to watch (or hear) as this poor dog was doing something he had no idea how to do but he may of bought enough time to save that cop. I think everyone survived.

LL1
February 21st, 2005, 09:22 AM
It's not a matter of disagreeing.Facts are facts.Mona also said police forces do not use rescues as K9s,she's also wrong there.Some do.Most established Ontario forces use imports from NY.Those with less money will consider an Ontario breeder or shelter.I don't know how more clear I can make that.Forces in the US also use rescues sometimes as I have posted.It's a fact.Clearly she was misinformed and should just move on.
IIsnít there room on this subject to disagree? How many forces are there and how many different jobs for dogs are there?
.

mona_b
February 21st, 2005, 10:27 PM
Clearly she was misinformed and should just move on.

I was misinformed?And how do you figure that out?????..So your telling me that the info that I get from my brother,who has been on the K9 for 24 years,has worked on 3 different forces,deals with the dogs is misinforming me????..And the past force and the one I am on is also misinforming me?????Ummmm I think not... :rolleyes: ...If any one should move on it should be you.

Once again,they have their dogs imported straight from Europe.NOT NY.

This goes for all GSD breeders.

http://www.narniakennels.com/#Importing%20Service%20Available

http://www.bullingershepherds.com/mystart.htm

Oh,and also Dobes.

Sorry but had to throw this one in.

http://www.monaco.on.ca/

Spurby
February 21st, 2005, 11:09 PM
Hey Mona, got a chip on your shoulder or something????

Reading these posts, and others here, it seems you do, against LL1..too bad really, since LL1 is one of the most knowledgeable, compassionate person in rescue i know..this person never lies, runs an ethical rescue, and has their heart in the right place. LL1 has always helped this board and people on it with advice and links to other rescues to people who need them..too bad you have the need to always feel the need to be "right" rather than actually listen and learn, it might do you some good.

mona_b
February 21st, 2005, 11:20 PM
Hey Mona, got a chip on your shoulder or something????

Reading these posts, and others here, it seems you do, against LL1..too bad really, since LL1 is one of the most knowledgeable, compassionate person in rescue i know..this person never lies, runs an ethical rescue, and has their heart in the right place. LL1 has always helped this board and people on it with advice and links to other rescues to people who need them..too bad you have the need to always feel the need to be "right" rather than actually listen and learn, it might do you some good.

WTF?????

I have no chip on my shoulder.

I have listened and learned on here.Ask the regulars on here.

Don't come on here flapping your gums at me.

So what,she had to get her back up on here or what?????

She has had it out with me from the start.And many others also.So please crawl back under your rock.

Spurby
February 21st, 2005, 11:35 PM
Nice response.

I am no "back up" just stating what i see, and what i know, thats all. LL1 certainly doesn't need any back up from me!

I can see from your response that you are quite defensive about this. I wonder why? They have it out for you?? rather paranoid are we??

And why are you telling me to go crawl back under my rock..LOL?? Is there something wrong with me posting on this board? I may not be a regular here, but that doesn't mean i cannot comment on these forums.

Ya know, it's OK to be wrong, we all are at times :)

happycats
February 22nd, 2005, 09:05 AM
Who started all this fighting and left really quickly ????
Bigdoglover has created quite a stir in alot of threads, then just disappeared!!
so please http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/signs/dontfeedtrolls.gif . because this is exactly the response Bigdoglover was looking for.

Please lets just agree to disagree :)

Just remember we all have one very important thing in common, "the love of animals"!! and thats all that really matters here :)

LL1
February 22nd, 2005, 09:21 AM
Yes you're misinfomed - RE-READ WHAT I SAID.You're being deliberately obtuse.I never said they do not use Ontario dogs on any occasion.They do on occasion,like I said they do.You said they never use rescues.YOU'RE WRONG.Accept it and get over it.You have a real probleml with accepting when you are wrong.I also don't know why nasty insults and bad language are ok for you but are not ok for this board.I hope a mod or admin can explain that to me.




Mona also said police forces do not use rescues as K9s,she's also wrong there.Some do. Both in the US and Canada.

Most established Ontario forces use imports from NY.Those with less money will consider an Ontario breeder or shelter.I don't know how more clear I can make that.Forces in the US also use rescues sometimes as I have posted.It's a fact.Clearly she was misinformed and should just move on.

Lucky Rescue
February 22nd, 2005, 11:13 AM
Just remember we all have one very important thing in common, "the love of animals"!! and thats all that really matters here

Thanks for the reminder Happycats. I agree and think this should end before it deteriorates further.