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recognized breed?

happycats
February 17th, 2005, 10:04 PM
Is there actually a breed called "native americen indian dog" ?
I see some websites recognize them, ,yet others call it a complete hoax, they are just mutts. possably husky, ,spitz cyote, wolf mixes.
Does anyone know for sure ?
Just curious.

mona_b
February 17th, 2005, 10:37 PM
You mean this one.

mona_b
February 17th, 2005, 10:39 PM
And this one.

I have come across some sites about these dogs.They are not recognized with the CKC and I'm sure not with the AKC either.I have never seen these dogs at any of the dog shows I've been too.

mona_b
February 17th, 2005, 10:49 PM
I found this,plus some more.

http://www.iidoba.com/history.htm

But I did find this also.

http://www.indiandogwarning.com/


Hmmmmmmm.

mona_b
February 17th, 2005, 10:55 PM
It's funny that these dogs all look like they have different breeds in them.

Some of them look like they have Husky/Border Collie,yet some look like they have Husky/Shepherd........ :rolleyes:

http://www.spiritdogkennels.com/gallery2.htm

Karin
February 17th, 2005, 11:05 PM
With a little imagination we could think up our own board breed of dog too.


Any ideas?






"Board de Tellall" a breed known to be nosey, sniffing places it does not belong but tells a good story on the way...

Just my imagination working....*must be the working breed I'm thinking of* lol! Yes, I watched the show.....

Writing4Fun
February 18th, 2005, 07:25 AM
Yeah, I looked into these dogs at one point. They're not recognized by anyone except their own "breeders". Even at that, there are two sets of "breeders" who will bash each other if given half the chance - both are claiming to be the only ones breeding the "true" Native American Indian Dog, while the other (they claim) are breeding nothing more than coyote/wolf/dingo hybrids. :rolleyes:

maddoxies
February 18th, 2005, 08:41 AM
Karin: I love your sense of humour. What a great idea for a new thread!!! Make up some breed names and their charactaristics. I will have to watch my guys over the weekend and put my thinking cap on.

glasslass
February 18th, 2005, 12:22 PM
Don't forget :thumbs up if you want the name to appeal, it's gotta end in "oodle" or "poo".

Petipoo Canoodle?

BigDogLover
February 18th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Wouldn't ' Goldenweiller' have a certain appeal to it? How about a Golden Pinscher or a Doberman Retriever. Thank god both of my dogs are male, the golden altered, the dobe will be altered ASAP, else, imagine the evils I could do?

Dar.

Schwinn
February 18th, 2005, 01:15 PM
Don't forget :thumbs up if you want the name to appeal, it's gotta end in "oodle" or "poo".

Petipoo Canoodle?

If you combined a ****-zu with a Poodle, wouldn't that be redundant? (I'm thinking name here)

glasslass
February 18th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Leave it to Schwinn! :evil: :D

happycats
February 22nd, 2005, 05:38 PM
my brother has a *****szu/pom he call him a sh*ittypom!!

Schwinn
February 23rd, 2005, 09:42 AM
Daisy is a Rottenpit. (Rott/pit cross)

mafiaprincess
February 25th, 2005, 03:29 PM
I was curious about the NAID when I heard about it. On a different forum there was a pretty good conversation about it you might want to read. About half way down the page.
http://www.terrificpets.com/forum/705_4.asp

Lissa
July 3rd, 2005, 05:49 PM
I was also curious about this breed when I saw it mentioned on another forum. So I searched for it here and found this thread about them!

At first I was confused because there seems to be 2 different "breeds" within a breed if you know what I mean :rolleyes: !!

There is an American Indian Dog which is about 18-21 inches and 25-45lbs. Which is said to be a mix of: coyote/dingo/Australian Kelpie/Border Collie mix.

Then there is the Native American Indian Dog that are 26"-32" in height and about 70lbs-120lbs. The amazing part about these NAID is there life expectancy - anywhere from 14-20 years - so amazing! Apparently, they have no known genetic "defects"/health issues. (I can't find anywhere that says exactly what breeds this dog has in it)

I don't know much about this "breed" aside from what I've read on the breeders websites. Some have a very wolfish look to them - which is probably why I am so entranced by them.

I agree that most of them look like a mix of a whole bunch of different breeds - there seems to be endless variations of coat colours and body types - presumably because of the tribe and region they came from???

I think NAID's are now recognized by the National Kennel Club (whatever that is!?)

Although I agree that this dog is now and probably always was some sort of mix, I think that the history behind these dogs is a great thing to keep alive. I wonder if it's possible to trace some of these dogs back to certain tribes? There are many photos, paintings and drawings that show Native Americans with dogs - some of which have a remarkable resemblance to one's being bred today. I guess it probably is too late to preserve this breed? Would this make this breeders a form of BYB???



Melissa

This is the smaller, American Indian Dog: (taken from this site: http://www.indiandogs.com/)

Lissa
July 3rd, 2005, 05:52 PM
And this is the taller and larger NAID, taken from this site: http://www.terrapines.com/

Lissa
July 3rd, 2005, 05:59 PM
One last question/comment: are these dog like the Canadian Eskimo Dog? From what I can tell, is that these dog were used for hunting, sledding and carrying things, some I'm sure were eaten as well (hopefully they were also companions!) - much like the Canadian Eskimo Dog, right?

Here's a Canadian Eskimo Dog, obviously smaller and thicker... (taken from this site: http://www.canadianeskimodog.com)

mafiaprincess
July 3rd, 2005, 06:31 PM
Since the NAID is a bunch of dogs randomly thrown together, that when they look too much like dog or wolf the opposite is added, it is impossible to 'save the breed'. When it truely was a breed it eventualyl became extinct, and now crappy breeders claim they are preserving them, yet the new dogs don't come from any of that lineage.

People who have visited the kennels have mentioned in the past that the dogs change. Go back in 6 months and the dogs don't look at all the same as they did before. There's a manditory s/n contract which is sketchy since you would want quality dogs back to help develop the kennel.

Overall, the NAID is a scam. It's a pretty much heinz 57 there are so many dogs mixed in with no breed standard. The kennel owners (if I remebr there are 2 kennels breeding) kick the dogs out the door at like 6 weeks because they claim it forces the dog to bond with owner. In reality they have severe temperment issues, and they need them off the property fast.

Mockingcat
July 3rd, 2005, 06:40 PM
There was a thread on these dogs on another board I frequent. There were a lot of questionable practices going on, stemming with the breed's founder.

Lissa
July 3rd, 2005, 06:55 PM
There's a manditory s/n contract which is sketchy since you would want quality dogs back to help develop the kennel.

Overall, the NAID is a scam. It's a pretty much heinz 57 there are so many dogs mixed in with no breed standard. The kennel owners (if I remebr there are 2 kennels breeding) kick the dogs out the door at like 6 weeks because they claim it forces the dog to bond with owner. In reality they have severe temperment issues, and they need them off the property fast.

About the s/n, most of the breeders of NAID offer a $100 if the dog is spayed. Do reputable breedes offer that too? And of course, if you don't plan on getting them neutered, the dog costs more. Is this NAID breeders trying to pass as reputable?

There are a lot more than 2 kennels breeding now - and those are only the one's advertised on the net, there could be more for all I know!

Breeders of NAID, claim that the dogs are hypoallergenic (there's that false term again!) and have no "doggy" smell.

I find the ancestors of these dogs quite intriguing but I guess I should accept what you say - in reality these dogs have long been extinct.

Melissa

mafiaprincess
July 3rd, 2005, 07:18 PM
Al lI know is a few people on another board wanted a NAID back in like February of so, and people were curious and did major research. S/N was manditory no matter what.

Usually pet quality dogs cost less from a good breeder, so you are paying less than a show quality dog.. so you don't get money back.

I think there were 2 major kennels when people were looking like 6 months ago.

Hypo any dog is a lie. Low dander maybe, but not coming from lines that include wolves and mals.

I think the history is cool too. But in reality the dogs from history weren't preserved to be being bred now.

http://www.indiandogwarning.com/ sums up a lot of what people found in researching in varied sources. If you read up above I dropped a link to another forum.. one person had their Mom look in the college library she works at to get info even.. there wasn't any.
That website while controversial is fairly straight forward and rings pretty true about all of the claims made about NAIDs or AIDs..

mona_b
July 3rd, 2005, 07:25 PM
One last question/comment: are these dog like the Canadian Eskimo Dog? From what I can tell, is that these dog were used for hunting, sledding and carrying things, some I'm sure were eaten as well (hopefully they were also companions!) - much like the Canadian Eskimo Dog, right?

That breed doesn't even compare to the Canadian Eskimo Dog.The Canadian Eskimo is a recognized breed.... :)

Lissa,have you checked the links that I posted?Every single dog looks different.If it's called a NAID,wouldn't you think that all the dogs would more or less look the same?And the link with the taller ones,yeah,they look wolf to me.10-1 these are hybred wolves being bred.Absalutely nothing to do with the NAID..Just my opinion.

Lissa
July 3rd, 2005, 07:44 PM
I just read through the posts abour NAID on that other forum. OMG, the thought that she killed her high-content wolf dogs and sold their pelts is horrible.

I have not read the whole Indian Dog Warning site yet - but do you know if the same holds true for Canadian Eskimo Dogs?? I realize that Canadian Eskimo Dogs are a glorified mutt but I don't think anybody advertises them as anything else...
I heard that they are almost extinct as well but since they are still being used as sled dogs up North, does that make them more of a "breed"!? Or just a mutt with a job?
Recently, our local shelter has started flying dogs in from an Iqaluit (sp?) shelter. I have seen a few of these adopted dogs from WAY up North and with adequate exerise and training they make excellent companions. The 3 that I have met do NOT roam and are 100% trustworthy off-leash - I was amazed.
Adopting one of these Northern dogs is a good way to bring a "piece of living history" into my life - but that is 100% the wrong reason to get a dog!
Thanks for sharing what you know about these dogs!

mona_b
July 3rd, 2005, 07:56 PM
The Canadian Eskimo Dog is a true breed that is recognized with the CKC.I know of one breeder in Brampton.

Lissa
July 3rd, 2005, 07:59 PM
That breed doesn't even compare to the Canadian Eskimo Dog.The Canadian Eskimo is a recognized breed.... :)

Lissa,have you checked the links that I posted?Every single dog looks different.If it's called a NAID,wouldn't you think that all the dogs would more or less look the same?And the link with the taller ones,yeah,they look wolf to me.10-1 these are hybred wolves being bred.Absalutely nothing to do with the NAID..Just my opinion.

Yes, I just looked over the sites you posted...when I started reading the Indian Dog Association history, I remembered the Carolina Dog.

The Carolina Dog seems to be the U.S version of a Dingo and I claims to be the closest thing to the original Native American dogs???? I think they are AKC approved but not by the CKC?? Is that right?

Here's a Carolina Dog:

Lissa
July 3rd, 2005, 08:01 PM
And another. Again with the Carolina Dog, there seems to be some variation in body height/size and colour - but not as much as the NAID....

Safyre
July 3rd, 2005, 08:09 PM
I've said this before, and I will say it many times in the future I'm sure: most of the dogs we love right now, are mutts. (that is in response to the "I realize that Canadian Eskimo Dogs are a glorified mutt")

Lissa
July 3rd, 2005, 08:09 PM
The Canadian Eskimo Dog is a true breed that is recognized with the CKC.I know of one breeder in Brampton.

I understand that they are recognized by the CKC but how do they differ from NAID and AID? Just because some organization decides to grant them approval and therefore part of the club?

From what I have read the CED is still a mix of dogs - but I guess they have been mixed for a long enough time to warrant becoming a breed of their own?

If you look at it from the AID Association point of view - it sounds very much like they are doing the right thing to get as close to the original/historical native american breed as possible. If what their site claims is true, it seems that AID are as "pure" and as close to what their ancestors are as CED...

Safyre
July 3rd, 2005, 08:13 PM
The Carolina Dog seems to be the U.S version of a Dingo and I claims to be the closest thing to the original Native American dogs???? I think they are AKC approved but not by the CKC?? Is that right?

I just started to read the AID Hoax website and just wanted to quote this:

Most likely, these loftily named dogs are simply a mix of various dog breeds. You will possibly even get a wolf or coyote hybrid, mixed over time with Husky, Kelpie, Spitz, Samoyed, Carolina dog or some other mix of unknown origin.
The carolina dog is mentioned as possibly a part of the AID.

mona_b
July 3rd, 2005, 08:28 PM
I understand that they are recognized by the CKC but how do they differ from NAID and AID?

They differ in alot of ways....NAID and AID are not true breeds.They are just throwing in different breeds at different times,but claiming they are NAID or NID...Did that make sense?...LoL.

Here is something for you to read.

http://www.sleddogcentral.com/canadian_eskimo.htm

Kariia
July 8th, 2005, 09:36 AM
The NAID/AID breeders don't look like they're in it for the money. It seems like they are actually trying to create a real breed.

Designer Mutt breeders:

-Breed mutts and tell people they are a new breed with dumb names. Just DON'T let them breed a bulldog and a Shih Tzu...

-Charge a lot

-Usually, don't have a s/n contract

-Sell to pet stores, sometimes. Ever noticed all the "Schnoodles" and "Yorkipoos" in a pet store?

NAID/AID breeders:

-Some say they are real, others say they are just breeding mutts. But you make a breed by selective breeding; this is what they are doing.


- Not sure of the price...

-I believe there is an s/n contract

-There are not many breeders, but they would not sell to a pet store. Mostly because they are not called a Huskadingowolfotecarolinadogkelpiebordercolliepoo. And anyway, people want little dogs. (exception- Goldens)

Sneaky
July 21st, 2005, 12:25 AM
Hi,
I was just reading this thread,
and it reminded me of a book I read this year which I found
when trolling for books for a research project for Anthropology class.
I cant remember the actual name or author, but i will look it up and see
if I can find it and post it later but it was a book on the anthropology of dog breeds kept by First Nations people in Canada and the USA, Mexico, and South American Countries.
What she said was basically, there was a "Native American Indian Dog" one of which was common in the USA, and one was common on the Canadian Prairies, which was commonly known as the Plains Indian Dog.
Both at one point in time prior to white settlers bringing other dogs breeds here, were believed to have been a pure breed. However, after settlers colonized, these dogs interbred with other dogs, creating the mutts we see today.
The Canadian Eskimo Dog is a pure breed, and has been around for a minimum of 12,000 years, and Inuit breeders of this dog have taken great pride and spent many thousands of years perfecting this breed for its loyalty, gentleness, and stamina. It is also known as the "Kimiq" dog.
Also, Coastal Salish people used to breed a dog known as the "White Wooly Dog" which was bred specifically for its fur, which was woven into clothing. These dogs were kept by the women, and isolated and only the best bred for quality of fur, personality, and small size, and were a sign of great wealth for the women who kept and bred them.
Unfortunately, when settlers came, they also brought dogs, and this resulted in the total loss of the white wooly dog, a breed thought to have been around for at least 9000 years prior to white settlers coming to Western Canada and the Northwest US.
Anyway the book was fascinating, and yes most of these dogs were used as companions/working dogs, and were rarely if ever eaten, except in times of great starvation. I will see if I can find the name and title for you guys. Awesome interesting book.

Lissa
July 21st, 2005, 07:58 AM
Both at one point in time prior to white settlers bringing other dogs breeds here, were believed to have been a pure breed. However, after settlers colonized, these dogs interbred with other dogs, creating the mutts we see today.
The Canadian Eskimo Dog is a pure breed, and has been around for a minimum of 12,000 years, and Inuit breeders of this dog have taken great pride and spent many thousands of years perfecting this breed for its loyalty, gentleness, and stamina. It is also known as the "Kimiq" dog.
Anyway the book was fascinating, and yes most of these dogs were used as companions/working dogs, and were rarely if ever eaten, except in times of great starvation. I will see if I can find the name and title for you guys. Awesome interesting book.

Thanks, I would definatly bee interested in it!

However I still find it VERY hard to believe that the Canadina Eskimo Dog is that much more pure then the AID or NAID...I have been to Canada's north many times and I know for a fact that there is no sure way of breeding (for the most part!). Oftentimes, a female in heat is left outside for a wolf to mate with her and in addition there are often loose dogs that haven't been bred for any reason that end up mating with the females as well. In addition there are many people who bring different breeds of dog and with so much open space, let them run loose or simply abandon them - further weakening the CED and what may have been a "pure" breed hundreds/thousands of years ago.
I would like to find a book that is older and mostly unbiased about the NAID and AID because if what I have read so far has some truth, then there should be a way to recreate a close relative of these dogs...well except for the fact you aren't allowed to breed wolves/coyotes. But theoretically, I think it is entirely possible to recreate a dog that closely matches the historical AID and NAID. HOWEVER, I don't see that there is much use for them unless they were to be used as working dogs!
I have found this thread to be quite interesting and I would love to know that title of the book you mentioned!

Thanks!

Melissa

mona_b
July 21st, 2005, 11:14 AM
However I still find it VERY hard to believe that the Canadina Eskimo Dog is that much more pure then the AID or NAID.

As hard as it is to believe,that's they way it is..... :)

I have done some research on NAID,and I can't see how it can be classified as a Purebred.All the dogs look totaly different.

I know that all the purebreds today started off as mutts.But the purebreds all look the same.

Example,the Great Dane,the Rottie,the GSD,the Dobe,the Setters,Spaniels,hounds.The list goes on.

Now take the NAID,all the "breeders" dogs look different.Some look like Wolves,some look like Huskies,and some just look like plane mutts.And they say that there are no known genetic health problems.Every breed has a genetic health problem.

This was taken from a NAID "breeder"

Wolf-Dogs were my love and passion but an ominous future lay ahead for the Wolf-Dog in Michigan and I was not so dumb, so to speak, as to put all my eggs in one basket. I bred my foundation Native American Indian Dog to an Alaskan Malamute/Chinook/German Shepherd mix male producing Majestic View’s Hakata We. I then boarded a big yellow “Old Yeller” type male with prick ears, Cochese, who I later found out was an Indian dog from the Native Americans in Montana. I bred him to my foundation female producing Whitney, and then to my son’s registered Alaskan Malamute, producing Majestic View’s Keyonee.

First off,"IF" you already have this so called NAID,why on earth would you want to throw in all these other mixes?If they consider a NAID a purebred,you are now just creating mutts.Sorry,but I still consider the NAID a mutt.And with all these dogs that she is mixing,you can't say there is no health issues.

They have a hypoallergenic hair coat, so people who are allergic to dogs or suffer from asthma, can own one of these unique animals.

Now this is a total lie.Once again,look at the different breeds in this dog.

Lissa
July 21st, 2005, 12:17 PM
I don't consider the NAID a purebred, I am more arguing the point that they did exist at one point and only had similar features and characteristics. I don't think they could ever have been considered purebreds as IMO they were more a creation of nature then of man. And IMO the same is true of the CED, just because the CKC recognizes this dog and not the AID or NAID shouldn't automatically mean that this dog is a purebred - especially since most breeding of the CED is just as random!

I admit that breeders of the NAID today are randomly throwing together different breeds which obviously = irresponsible breeding and mutts. However, I do believe that with time, effort and research, the NAID breed could be recreated quite close to the original/historical NAID.

I don't know how anybody could call a dog hypoallergenic but that doesn't just apply to NAID breeders, lots of breeders claim that their breed is hypoallergenic.

Sneaky
July 22nd, 2005, 01:09 AM
Hi,
I found out the name of the book: heres the info for an yone whos interested:

First nations, first dogs : Canadian aboriginal ethnocynology
By Bryan D. Cummins

Calgary : Detselig Enterprises, 2002

Lissa
July 22nd, 2005, 07:14 AM
Thanks sneaky... I really appreciate it! I will look for that book at the library! :)

NorthernOfficer
February 21st, 2006, 05:28 AM
I know this post is very very old, but I thought I would shed some more light on the topic, Im not sure where you were and saw the CED's running loose and mixed breeds mating with them, but I know for a fact being here that real CED's that are used for the purpose of sledding are kept far far away from villages and bred with strict guildlines, mixed breeds dont hold up in the cold and are not very good for sledding and they take sledding very seriously, yes some are in town, strays and what not, but the 279 purebred CED's registered todate are real CED's and the many unregistered ones in the north are still pure to uphold the breed that once were a way of life for the inuits and the explorers of the north. Distict features of the CED are lost when you mix the breed as with any dog breed. To register a CED as a purebred it must have the features to the T. There were once over 20,000 CED's, but with the introduction of Ski-doo's, CED's died off and now the few hundred left are being bred to bring back one of Canada's own.:ca: Sad to say but strays where I am are killed off once a month and most puppies are killed to minimize strays. The inuit dont use the CED as a pet, but merely as a tool, doesnt help the fact that the RCMP killed off many many CED's in the 60's.