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Designer Breeds

CyberKitten
February 16th, 2005, 05:48 PM
Hi,

I wanted to post a reply (because a response I made had been criticized and we need to dialogue here -why else have a bulletin board) and I logged on only to discover the thread closed. I have a VERY busy medical practice and can only log on at certain times so I think we need to keep that in mind before closing a thread. I understand the rationale but I also promote free speech!!!

I wanted to note that my point had been about the very idea of a Morkie breed. I was not expecting the individual who adopted a Morkie to be defensive. I for one did not know what a Morkie was until I read it was a designer breed, an issue I do know soemthing about. My comments were meant to be educational and not hurtful.

Indeed, many consumers do not realize the down side to these designer breeds. There is a great article here:

http://www.mysticalpoodles.com/poodle-breeders-recommend/article26.html

As for whether one should want a certain breed, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I myself seek the Siamese cat breed. That said, Morkies are not a reputable breed in that they are not recognized by the CKC, AKC or the other organizations. (because they are "designer" dogs). I have to add though that I view a reputable breeder as someone who shows their dogs or cats and then opts to breed one of his or her champions. Anything else is by definition a back yard breeder. Granted, some people become well intentioned byb but that fact remains they still are breeding animals disreputably no matter how much they care for their animals and how good their intentions.

As an physician, I would not refer a patient to a doctor who is not Board certified in his or her field. In the same way, I'd never recommend or consider adopting an animal from a breeder who is not reputable. Some jurisdictions require certification for breeders and I think that is one avenue that should be considerer by more Canadian areas.

I even understand why someone would want a designer breed. Our local CTV affiliate interviewed a woman who breeds (not reputably and she readily ackowledged it) labradoodles - a mixed breed - lab/ poodle - and sells the puppies for $1000. They also discussed the downside and controversial nature of this practice so it was well balanced in its presentation. Admittedly, the puppies were cute BUT one can find a wonderful moggie at any shelter. These people are unfortunately adding to the pet population.

I guess I need to know why it is one would want a Morkie and not a Yorkie? I sit on a hospital ethics committee and I have to wonder if that means we should also be creating designer babies? (and alas, that is not far from science fiction either). The ethical issues are similar. Why create a new kind of species - especially a cross breed about which much is not yet known?

Thanks for listening? :)

happycats
February 16th, 2005, 06:35 PM
Wonderfully put Cyberkitten :thumbs up

Trinitie
February 16th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Thank you Kitten, for a very well thought out and very well articulated post.

The reason I closed the other thread, is because that particular thread had run it's course. I'm all for the discussion of "Designer Breeds and their downsides", but that thread wasn't doing more than keeping a tired arguement going. If people post to this thread, and keep it civil, I see no reason for not allowing it to continue.

It had turned into a very heated discussion started by a person who only posted once, and then never returned. If we want to discuss this further, I think a new thread is totally in order. Like my signature says, I'm firm but fair. Everyone is entitled to say what's on their minds because freedom of speech is something I truly believe in.

I look forward to reading what others have to say on the subject. I only ask that it be kept to a dull roar - that's all.

BMDLuver
February 16th, 2005, 07:30 PM
Teddy, my BMD, was a 40th Birthday present. We purchased him at a pet store. We were new again to QC after being away for 12 years. We thought it was a good idea at the time as it looked like a really high end store with very healthy animals. Teddy died as many of you know during surgery at 6 months. What did I learn from this experience?
1) never ever support a petstore
2) never let your heart rule your brain
3) research, research, research
4) ask about genetic testing for both parents
5) ask about health guarantees
6) understand the breed, it's health risks etc
7) meet with the breeder
8) meet the parents
9) go to a show where the breeders dogs are competing
10) ask for references from previous purchasers

All I can add is please be sure before getting a purebred dog that you have looked at every angle and, if at all possible, try to rescue one instead of purchasing one from a breeder.

glasslass
February 16th, 2005, 07:52 PM
I think the main point behind designer dogs is that they've suddenly become "popular", therefore exploitable. That's the primary motive behind the breeding - to make money. There's no health testing, no requirement other than the pups being cute. Same with purebred dogs and BYB's. The poodle is a prime example of the problems that occur from indiscriminate breeding. They are prone to hip dysplacia, nervousness, epilepsy, and other genetic problems. They're wonderful dogs that don't deserve the problems that have become all too common. No dogs deserve that. After Disney came out with "101 Dalmations", look how many dalmations soon ended up in shelters. Now people are rushing to breed Schnoodles and Labradoodles to cash in on the new, current favorites. I'm wondering what will happen to the labradoodle that takes after the lab parent and sheds. What will happen when the pup requires the grooming that the poodle side demands? I enjoy the grooming, but not everyone is going to be willing to do it regularly, after the novelty wears off.

Writing4Fun
February 16th, 2005, 08:29 PM
As usual, CK, we can count on you for a well-articulated, thoughtful post. :thumbs up

GlassLass, I was wondering the exact same thing about the Labradoodles and such. The answer that comes to my mind is almost too painful to think about. :sad: I hope I'm very wrong.

Lucky Rescue
February 16th, 2005, 09:03 PM
I'm wondering what will happen to the labradoodle that takes after the lab parent and sheds. What will happen when the pup requires the grooming that the poodle side demands?

Here's what happened to one "Labradoodle" after the novelty wore off. He was dumped not once, but twice, at the THS. Don't know if he was adopted again, but for his sake I hope 3rd time's a charm. :mad:

twinmommy
February 16th, 2005, 09:09 PM
Well said, CK, gee it's good to have you back!! :thumbs up

mona_b
February 17th, 2005, 08:57 AM
Amazingly well said CK. :thumbs up

There are just to many Oddles and Doodles out.And the more people buy from these people,the more they are pumped out.And the more they are dumped in shelters.

There is absalutely nothing wrong with wanting a specific breed.Just make sure you do alot of research before getting one.

I grew up with GSD's.So when I was almost 16,I knew I wanted one of my own.I did a ton of research.I made sure it was ok with my dad(was living with him.His house,his rules)I went to the dog shows,talked to the breeders.I did my homework.And when I was 17,I got Cujo.So as you can see,it took me almost a year.I wanted to make sure.And he was with us for 13 years.I did go back to my original breeder when I got Yukon and Tron.

sammiec
February 17th, 2005, 09:06 AM
Very well said CK! :thumbs up

Everyone has made such excellent points.

meowzart
February 17th, 2005, 11:21 AM
I actually agree with you .
But I do have a couple questions/points

1) Is there any merit to the thoughts that breeding different breeds together will produce genetically stronger animals - i.e. eliminating a lot of the very unfortunate illness being bred in purebred lines today

2) Not all of the recognized breeds in cat fancy or CKC are natural breeds. Some are 'man made' yet now considered their very own desirable breed. I give you my own ragdolls for example. Only bred since I believe the '60's.

3) I agree re: reputable breeders, HOWEVER, I feel that many breeders are breeding extremes into the lines for show purposes, and to make their breed distinctive which I don't think is necessarily in the best interests of the animal. Do you agree?

4) Many breeds have been overbred and are now suffering from a host of genetically linked or familial diseases - I'm very frustrated with this fact. it may be the demise of purebred lines altogether unless something is done. :mad:

Thanks

TobsterMom
February 17th, 2005, 11:40 AM
May I also point out that small breeds of dogs are now becoming the hottest trend on the red carpet with celebrities, as much as these people may love and care for their pets, it's only giving the pet more popularity and filling the pockets of BYB's.

It used to be the dress that everyone was talking about, now it's the Chihuahua!

Lucky Rescue
February 17th, 2005, 02:13 PM
1) Is there any merit to the thoughts that breeding different breeds together will produce genetically stronger animals - i.e. eliminating a lot of the very unfortunate illness being bred in purebred lines today

No, not unless both parents have been health tested/screened and cleared against all genetic defects common to that breed. Plus only dogs who have been titled and proven to be impeccable examples of that breed should reproduce.

The "hybrid vigour" you are talking about does not apply here, since all dogs are the same species.

No one who has a titled and health tested purebred would consider cross breeding it, so that leaves the unhealth tested and untitled dogs to produce the designer mixes and puppies could very well end up with genetic defects common to BOTH breeds.

Millions of mixed breed dogs die every year. I see no logic in choosing to pay big bucks for deliberately produced mutts when there are so many to choose from at shelters and rescues.

Writing4Fun
February 17th, 2005, 02:26 PM
2) Not all of the recognized breeds in cat fancy or CKC are natural breeds. Some are 'man made' yet now considered their very own desirable breed. I give you my own ragdolls for example. Only bred since I believe the '60's. I think most breeds (dog or cat) are in some respect "man made". But in this day and age, I think we have enough breeds to be getting on with, don't you?

3) I agree re: reputable breeders, HOWEVER, I feel that many breeders are breeding extremes into the lines for show purposes, and to make their breed distinctive which I don't think is necessarily in the best interests of the animal. Do you agree? I think what you refer to as "breeding to extremes" is actually breeding to showcase the breed's distinctive and desireable qualities. Those puppies that are not "extreme" are referred to as "pet quality" and are sold on a spay/neuter contract.

4) Many breeds have been overbred and are now suffering from a host of genetically linked or familial diseases - I'm very frustrated with this fact. it may be the demise of purebred lines altogether unless something is done. :mad: This is largely due to the host of disreputable breeders/millers/byb's out there who are not health testing prior to breeding. That's why it's so important to research your breeder properly.

My two cents. :D

Schwinn
February 17th, 2005, 02:35 PM
Some of the "designer breeds" originally served a purpose. I believe the Labradoodle was one of them. It was one of the "oodle" breeds, anyway. It had something to do with people who needed service dogs, but had allergies or something. Apparently, the poodle's coat did not affect them, but the dog itself was not useful for that purpose. So they cross-bred them, and now the are used by people who couldn't use them before (I'm missing a lot of the story, but that's the just). That being said, I think there's more designer breeds out there for the wrong reasons, and I agree, that it is wrong to "design" a breed just for the sake of doing it.

happycats
February 17th, 2005, 02:42 PM
I didn't know that Schwinn.
I was watching a show a week ago about a blind man with severe allergy's so they just trained a Standard poodle for him, and the dog worked out great, and the man couldn't be happier!

Schwinn
February 17th, 2005, 03:19 PM
I didn't know that Schwinn.
I was watching a show a week ago about a blind man with severe allergy's so they just trained a Standard poodle for him, and the dog worked out great, and the man couldn't be happier!

I should also mention that this was on one site I found from somewhere in Austrailia, and I don't remember all the details. As with anything, a grain of salt...

I think some of these dogs were done with good intentions. However, we all know what happens when you start paving with good intentions...

BigDogLover
February 18th, 2005, 01:02 PM
I wanted to formulate a response that would not be riddled with egregious remarks and pomposity, here's what I came up with. To eliminate the plethora of unwanted animals we must examine all avenues with a well structured plan, unlike medicine who treats the symptom but never or hardly ever removing the source, masking with artificial solutions well suited for the 21st century man, mashed potatoes in a box!


Ever since man tamed Canis Lupus and brought him into his home, man has assumed a responsibility for these creatures. I've read the screams of outrage that plague this fora with an unusual frequency, yet there is no viable solution at hand, save for the elimination of 'back yard breeders' and 'puppy mills'. Let's see if we can't identify the real cancer here?

Man, that peculiarly curious creature who possesses the innate character of wanting to control his environment. Pollution, green house effect, endangered species, are just a few of man's accomplishments in his attempt at being, 'numero uno'. I ask you again, where is the real cancer? Supply and Demand, is the name of the game, and Homo sapien has copious amounts of demand. We want that dog in the window, doggy grows up and the numerous excuses for no longer wanting rover arise. He's ugly, he's destructive, he's too small, too large, pick one, there all good. Let's get a different breed, maybe he'll work out. Dogs and cats are expendable, man has no accountability for the beasts he's welcomed in his home. Stricter laws on who, how, and where people are allowed to own animals would be a start.


Labradoodle - In 1989 Wally Conron of Kew, Australia, began crossing Labrador Retrievers and Standard Poodles to create the Labradoodle because he wanted to have guide dogs suitable for blind people allergic to dog hair. Labradoodles are sociable, extremely clever and quick to learn unusual or special tricks. These dogs are good with children and easy to train. They need lots of exercise and activity in their life. Their curly coat needs regular grooming at least twice a week. Standard sizes weigh 45 to 77 lbs. and stand 21-24" at the shoulders. Miniature sizes weigh 26 to 55 lbs. and stand 17-20" at the shoulders. Females are slightly smaller.

This breed most definitely has a purpose as much so as any other breed since man decided to 'tame the beast'. What about Mira? Should we hold them accountable for their 'Labernois'? I've seen many of these sad little creatures in shelters and rescues. Louis Doberman set out to develop a breed that, for all intensive purposes existed in the 'Beauceron'. My great-grandparents brought theres with them from France.

I don't dispute the fact that we need to extinguish the 'puppy mills' and 'disreputable breeders', but that is merely a band-aid on the boo-boo. We need to eliminate the real cancer, no I don't mean annihilate mankind, I propose something more drastic in, education and accountability.

I guess I need to know why it is one would want a Morkie and not a Yorkie? I sit on a hospital ethics committee and I have to wonder if that means we should also be creating designer babies? (and alas, that is not far from science fiction either). The ethical issues are similar. Why create a new kind of species - especially a cross breed about which much is not yet known?

No it's not science fiction, it's a reality, and this falls under Medical Ethics. What the hell, immortality is only a clone away!

Dar.

meowzart
February 18th, 2005, 01:43 PM
Thank you - I agree with you too. Some animal advocates believe that ANY breeder is a bad breeder.

I know of labradoodle breeders who ARE breeding CKC registered purebreds with health checks etc., so I don't see how that is irresponsible.

I believe the real solutions are
1) SPAY AND NEUTER YOU PETS!!!!!!
2) education of the masses on what is a pet and pet responsibility

It's the animal OWNERS that need to be responsible.

25 years ago it was cool to smoke - through massive education - not it's not cool. I think the same is achievable for pets but I'm not sure we'd have the $$$$ behind us to make it happen :(

BigDogLover
February 18th, 2005, 01:49 PM
This is where we have to pool our resources, and plan a well thought out attack. Government agencies would be a good start, however crawling into bed with a sleezy partner such as the 'government' gives me the creeps. As far as I know, the Labradoodle is only recognised by the 'ckc(continental not Canadian)' and the 'ACHC = American Canine Hybrid Club'. All in good time.

Dar.

Lucky Rescue
February 18th, 2005, 01:53 PM
know of labradoodle breeders who ARE breeding CKC registered purebreds with health checks etc., so I don't see how that is irresponsible

Again, the CKC/AKC is merely a listing agent, and no guarantee of any quality. They will register even the crappiest backyard bred litter.

AND no one who has gone to the trouble, expense, and labour of raising a championed Lab or Poodle would ever consider using his/her dog to produce a litter of mutts.

At the moment there are 10,000 Labs and Lab mixes listed on Petfinder alone. Breeding more of them is highly irresponsible and just a money grab.

ETA: ooops - there are now 11,699 listed. Musta been a lot of dumping going on this week.

BigDogLover
February 18th, 2005, 02:00 PM
So, what would you propose? again this comes down to man's irresponsibility. A new breed is really not the issue, the issue is over-breeding, but for who's benefit? Education and accountability, that is the solution. Keep in mind that each bred deemed as 'cute or adorable' or even worse 'the in breed' has had his fate sealed by mass production. The Doberman, German Shepherd(you don't know where the breed starts and ends), Poodles and poodles of poodles!, just to name a few. This gave us less than whole products, that had to be destroyed due to illness and unwantedness.

Keep in mind, the thread started as a, 'It's not even a real breed', aire.

Just a thought,
Dar.

CyberKitten
February 18th, 2005, 02:57 PM
Hi again,

The "labradoodle" is not recognized as a "real" breed but I think more significantly perhaps is the ethics of the breeding practices. For example, the breeder interviewed on our local news program suggested that her puppies had the best qualities of both breeds they came from - the gentle nature of the lab and the hypoellergenic "hair" of the poodle. Anyone who has completed the most basic undergrad genetics course knows that is an absurd notion!! Not to mention the health problems these new so called breeds present with.

Yes, some of the newer cat breeds are crosses and that too is an ethical issue. I was just reading about an extensive program breeding sphinxes with domestic cats from shelters to advance the breed - and reduce inbreeding - and the difference between that program and some back yard breeder who decides to breed her two different dog types to cash in a new trend - is the science behind it.

The ethics of course is another question but the early breeders of such new breeds like Tonkinese (Siamese and Burmese cross) and Ragdolls is the reputable breeders of these cats (and many - probbly most are not) is the science and effort of the people behind it. Back yard breeders are playing with the dogs - are typically not educated about genetics - while the early creators of such breeds as a Sphynx spent a small fortune and over a period of time (decades actually) - developed these cats. There is an immense difference between someone who shows their cat or dog and invests money and resources to do because of the love of the breed and the back yard breeder who merely mates two animals and assumes s/he has created a new breed for profit!

Someone wrote: "unlike medicine who (sic) treats the symptom but never or hardly ever removing the source". As a medicalk practitioner, I have to disagree with that comment. I am not an expert in this history of medicine but I would a very poor oncologist if all I did was treat the symptoms of cancer!! In the the 1950's - long before I attended medical school - a child who was diagnosed with leukemia typically died in six months. That was the norm. Anything else was an aberation, a miracle! Now, most children who develop leukemia- as tarrible a disease as it is - live and actually grow up! In addition to treating symptoms, those of us in academic medicine as well as clinical practice also conduct research to ensure the illness disapears. I realize we do not always reach our goal but there have been many milestones in medicine. In the eighties, children with AIDS (another area of my practice) died. Now, most of them can be treated with medications and live long lives!

The treatment of symptoms - while obviously important especially to clinical practice -is a very small part of medicine! It is unfair even to suggest that doctors engaged only in clinical work just treat symptoms. Many of them also partipcate in research in some small way.

Sorry to veer off topic but I could not allow that comment to pass when I work so hard to carry out research while at the same time try to save as many lives as possible. The point is medicine in 2005 is very different from medicine in 1905 and if we had just treated symptoms, it would be exaclty the same - preemies would die, there would be no anesthesia, our mortaility rates would be in the 60 age range - you get my point. <g>

mona_b
February 19th, 2005, 02:40 AM
I know of labradoodle breeders who ARE breeding CKC registered purebreds with health checks etc., so I don't see how that is irresponsible.(

That's not being irresponsible...What is being irresponsible is a breeder putting these 2 breeds and creating mutts that sell for $1500.And these dogs will not be recognized with the Canadian Kennel Club....You will not see a reputable Lab or Poodle breeder who shows and has titled dogs doing this.

I have been an active member of the CKC for 20 years now.I have gone to many dogs shows.I have been around MANY breeders and know quite a few.I go to the meetings.We have discussed this breed and many others.And none of these breeders would ever think about breeding their champions or titled dogs to get a "designer" breed.

Lucky Rescue
February 19th, 2005, 11:04 AM
I had found over 40 breeds who's ancester crossbreed mix is a known mix

Of course this is true. But it can take decades of selective breeding, and an expert knowledge of genetics to produce dogs who breed true every time. If you breed two outstanding examples of the German Shepherd, you will ALWAYS get puppies who are like GSDs in conformation, temperament, and size and you can know within reason exactly how puppies will mature.

Merely buying a Lab and a Poodle and breeding them, and calling the offspring "Labradoodles" (and charging hefty prices) is not how it's done. These puppies are mutts and no one knows how they will turn out or what genetics defects they will have, since the parents have not been titled or probably health tested either.

When generations of this new breed do breed TRUE every time, then it can be called a breed - when it can be guaranteed that, for example, the puppies will ALWAYS have the nature of a Lab and coat of a poodle. This is when they can become a breed and puppies sold as such. And the selling price should not be many times higher than other established breeds.

Think about it. 1500$ for a show quality puppy of an established breed is not unreasonable. But 1500$ for a "labradoodle"? What justifies this price? You can't show the dog, and certainly should not breed it, so the price is basically a scam.

mona_b
February 19th, 2005, 11:19 AM
Trust me,we have done our research.WE do know that the purebreds now have come from mixed breeds.All this was done MANY MANY years ago.Some going as back as the early 1700's..But these breeds are now purebreds.

Why don't you go to a dog show.Talk to the breeders there about what they think about these "designer" breeds.And trust me,they will tell you straight out what they think.

And by the way,I did answer your question in that post.I answered "yes" they still would be.

Many responsible breeders have been breeding for many years.They breed to better the breed.If there is any health problems that arise,they will NOT breed.My dogs came from a very reputable breeder(over 20 years).Her dogs where Champions and titled in SchH III.Would she ever think of breeding them with a Poodle,just to get a "designer" Shepoodle?He!! no.

meowzart
February 19th, 2005, 11:23 AM
Merely buying a Lab and a Poodle and breeding them, and calling the offspring "Labradoodles" (and charging hefty prices) is not how it's done. These puppies are mutts and no one knows how they will turn out or what genetics defects they will have, since the parents have not been titled or probably health tested either.
There's an awful lot of assumptions in that statement.


Actuallly when we were looking for a dog - I looked at labradoodles - did my research and decided that they were too expensive.

But by far what I found was that foundation dogs WERE registered with a pedigree (which means health lines are traceable) and the dogs were health checked. I think it's unfair to lump this particular dog with BYB's.

Here's from one website...most of the breeders had everything I was looking for in a breeder - of course knowing that anybody can write whatever on a website - but that applies to 'purebreds' too.

Thank you for visiting our website. We are a small breeder of the multi-generation Australian Labradoodle.

Our goal is to breed non-shedding family dogs with excellent temperaments. Our breeding dogs are chosen for their sweet and loving personalities. We do extensive health testing on our dogs including hips, eyes, hearts, vWD, and SA. We only breed with dogs who have fantastic health and temperaments

Here's the history

History:
The Labradoodle first originated in Australia when the first intentional purpose bred mating of a Labrador Retriever and a Standard Poodle was initiated by Wally Cochran of The Royal Guide Dogs in Victoria Australia. This breeding was in response to a vision impaired woman whom needed a Guide Dog that would not aggravate her husbands allergies. Of the 31 Labradoodles bred at Royal Guide Dogs, a staggering 29 made it through the training to become certified Guide Dogs. This was an unparalleled proportion for the "new breed" of Guide Dog. When the Guide Dogs had open days, people fell in love with the Labradoodles they saw, and they soon besieged the Guide Dog Center with inquires as to where they could get one of these dogs. Thus became the need for breeders to establish themselves in order to fill the demand, and continue the development of the Labradoodle breed.


Description:
Footnote: It is recognized that during these developmental years of the Labradoodle, not all Labradoodles will meet some of the criteria in this Breed Standard, especially in respect to coat type. It is therefore a guideline which breeders may breed towards as they pass through the generations to the ideal. Conformation is not designated for eye appeal, but as form to function. Correct conformation is necessary to preserve soundness and overall health.

I'm not sure why we're picking on labradoodles here.

LavenderRott
February 19th, 2005, 11:41 AM
I doubt that there is a puppy selling pet store in the U.S. that doesn't sell Labradoodles or any of the other designer mixes. And I can promise you, these pups do NOT come from the kennel that you have quoted in the above post. Kennels that raise puppies to sell to pet shops often times don't even have the basics covered - food, water and shelter - let alone vet care and medical testing. Heck, some commercial breeders perform their own C-sections.

BigDogLover
February 19th, 2005, 11:42 AM
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know when someone is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. You see, Jazzman, with the legerdemain of the skilled archimage, politicians sashay across the issues like the tourista riddled tourist uses imodium. Cyberkitten was incapable of addressing me directly. 'Someone said' she wrote, well, the kitten knew who said what.

Cyberkitten's premise: These dogs are not a reputable(recognised) breed


Reputable: Having a good reputation; Honourable.
Recognised: 1 - To show awareness of; approve of or appreciate. 2 - To perceive or show acceptance of the validity or reality of.
breed: A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics , especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation.


The "labradoodle" is not recognised as a "real" breed but I think more significantly perhaps is the ethics of the breeding practises.

According to the definitions provided, Cyberkittens premise is a fallacy. I propose that the labradoodle is recognised, Recognised by the CKC(continental) and the ACHC, and a 'breed', furthermore these animate creatures are indeed 'real', your fatuous premise has been duly noted. I'd like to point out the remaining issue of 'ethics'. Ethics are highly subjective and don't always appeal to the masses but all to often a governing body, IE: 'medical board/committee of ethics'.

On Ethics: I believe that humans should have the right to terminate their life in such cases where 'quality of life' is hindered, medicine/government says I can't. They keep you alive in the name of science , much like the 'aids' patients that are living longer under medication but with no cure (you know what I'm getting at). The subjective ethics has no place in a logical debate.

This:
and the difference between that program and some back yard breeder who decides to breed her two different dog types to cash in a new trend - is the science behind it.

And this:
The ethics of course is another question but the early breeders of such new breeds like Tonkinese (Siamese and Burmese cross) and Ragdolls is the reputable breeders of these cats (and many - probably most are not) is the science and effort of the people behind it.

Leads me to believe that as long as science has it's grubby little hands in the till it's okay. Newsflash, Louis Doberman was a postman/Tax collector, and before him, all the way back to the first tamed dog, how many scientists were involved in the manufacturing of today's breeds. Probably very few, most were 'Backyard Scientists'.

At the moment there are 10,000 Labs and Lab mixes listed on Petfinder alone. Breeding more of them is highly irresponsible and just a money grab.

Any takers? Our highly esteemed Mira is breeding 'Labernois' dogs, anyone care to comment on this.

Anyone who has completed the most basic undergrad genetics course knows that is an absurd notion!! Not to mention the health problems these new so called breeds present with.

Again, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, enlighten us on genetics, I'd love to hear your synopsis on phenotypes and genotypes and biological potentials.

Small note for those interested: You are 100% related to your parents(50% to each) , you are 50% related to your brother/sister(assuming the same parents and not the 'POSTMAN'[sic]), 25% related to grandparents and 12.5% related to half siblings and cousins(first), and so on and so on. When the sperm and the egg unite a new cell is created, the Zygote. the Zygote contains the full human complement of 23-paired chromosomes, or 46 autosomes. In dogs, it refers to the 40 autosomes. Your genotype refers to the entire set of genes you inherit, your phenotype refers to the observable properties of your body and your behavioural traits. your phenotype might look like mom, but your genotype is a 50/50 split.

Can the best of both breeds be achieved, absolutely! It just takes time and testing. I argue that a poodle and it's hypo-allergenic hair were not an original breed of Canis Lupus, someone had to know what they were doing.

My premise remains unchanged, Man is the ultimate evil and needs to be tamed, educated and in my case sedated. Hard Sciences are mostly concerned with the abacination of our planet and co-inhabitants.


Dar.

mona_b
February 19th, 2005, 12:16 PM
But by far what I found was that foundation dogs WERE registered with a pedigree (which means health lines are traceable) and the dogs were health checked. I think it's unfair to lump this particular dog with BYB's.
I'm not sure why we're picking on labradoodles here.

Are these parents Champions or Titled?I think not.

Sorry,but I will always clasify them as BYB's.

Check out the news papers,shelters and petstores..There are alot of Labradoodles in there.Why,cause they can make $1500 for each pup.This is a "designer" breed no matter how you look at it.They are not recognized nor will they be by the Canadian Kennel Club.The CKC registry ONLY registers purebred dogs.These dogs are mutts.Along with cockapoos,schnoodles,pekepoos and so on.

Yeah,so the parents have pedigrees.You would hope they would for being purebred.My dogs came with pedigrees too,going back 5 generations.Guess what,they were Champion and Titled dogs.They were purebreds.Mutts do not come with pedigree papers,and not even registration papers.

Once again,reputable breeders will not breed their purebreds with a different purebred.That is just unethical in a reputable breeders eyes.

BigDogLover
February 19th, 2005, 12:31 PM
If you breed two outstanding examples of the German Shepherd, you will ALWAYS get puppies who are like GSDs in conformation, temperament, and size and you can know within reason exactly how puppies will mature.

Not True, what about recessive genes? A friend of mine recently purchased a Rhodesian ridgeback from a well known breeder, both parents were of champion lines yet two of the progeny had white paws, which is undesirable in the breed, there are no guarantees. You are also treading in uncharted waters with respect to this board, but there is the Nature/Nurture argument! While a dog may have inherited traits from his parents, there is a little thing called nurture. Just as all siblings are different, one may be as aggressive as a rabid dog another may be gentle as a kitten, despite similar lineage, so are dogs.



Are these parents Champions or Titled?I think not.
I'm under the impression that many of you are breeders?
*smiles* So this is what it's all about? It really isn't about the dogs! *scratches head*
Dar.

greaterdane
February 19th, 2005, 12:40 PM
I emailed the person yesterday about the westie poo on hobly.com for $1200 and asked why the pup was so much and why she was advertising the pup as RARE??? I asked if the parents were champions or titled or were offering great breed traits to their offspring etc. She wrote back that no the parents are not titled or registered. The dad is a westiepoo and the mom is a full blooded westie. She says they are rare because she looked and there were no others for sale and you dont see them. She was insulted by my email but wanted to clear things up because I accused her of false advertising. To me a mutt is not rare, it is a crossbreed. If the dog were $250 or even $300 that would be understandable, but $1200 WHO IS SHE KIDDING! I wish people would just wake up and realize these people are ripping them off with lies and false promises. Sure the dogs that come out of these situations are loyal and loving but the people that breed them are not. I am not speaking for the ones that bred for the blind that had allergies, my dad is a director with the CNIB and they have lots of goldiepoos and larbradoodles working for them and they are awesome, but they were bred for a purpose not for a fad. Sorry for the rant, I am just venting after getting that email, I didnt even reply i was so angerd.

BigDogLover
February 19th, 2005, 12:43 PM
Dobermom,

I agree 100% with you.

Dar.

CyberKitten
February 19th, 2005, 12:48 PM
BigDogLover, I am sorry if I did not address you directly but I reply to everyone and not just one person in particular. This is a Board, not a two person dialog. I was in a hurry and I do not always recall who said what. Plus, this site disappears on me so I have to write quickly! I could I suppose write slowly on another application and then copy and paste but I do not have that kind of leisure time. That is not a complaint, simply a fact.

I will be diplomatic and say your comments are simply not entirly accurate. Perhaps I should have said "good" science and I use the term loosely. I am well aware of the "evils" if you want to call them that that have been done in the name of science. Alas, it has been too much.

I choose to focus on the good however!! Working in oncology, I HAVE no option. One must remain optomistic!

My point was essentially that these quickly bred designer dogs (and I did not to pick on the labradoodle - it was just an illustration) in no way represent adequately done genetic research over tens of generations and decades. I know many dog and cat breeds have been developed over time. I just find it appalling that people as usual are thinking about the kind of breed they want and are not in it for the love of the breed. Someone who truly loved the labrador breed would not be breeding it with another breed to make a fast buck. According to the most basic definition of back yard breeders, all of these designer dogs come from byb's. - however well intentioned and irregardless of the fact they may deatly love their pets.

To put it simply, if someone wants a mutt - and there are many loveable cute and healthy mutts at any shelter - adopt one but don't pay $1500 for a so called "designer" breed and expect animal advocates to be thrilled about it.

Now, I hope I can post this in under 20 minutes! <g>

BigDogLover
February 19th, 2005, 12:55 PM
CyberKitten, My only gripe was that you took something I posted, and threw it out there, aside from that, You're an okay kitty!

There are two sides too every story, It's a good debate, however you have your views on science, I have mine, I'll agree to focus on the argument at hand, and leave personal subjective feelings at the barn door.

Dar.

Lucky Rescue
February 19th, 2005, 12:55 PM
A friend of mine recently purchased a Rhodesian ridgeback from a well known breeder, both parents were of champion lines yet two of the progeny had white paws, which is undesirable in the breed, there are no guarantees.

You will note that I said ".....you can know within reason exactly how puppies will mature."

Since puppies are not clones, of course there will always be puppies born who are not of the desired standard, and those puppies will not be bred by a reputable breeder. White paws are hardly a health danger or crippling defect, nor do white paws hinter the breed's ability to do what it was created for- to hunt. But white paws are not desirable in that breed and those puppies should be sold as pet quality with non-breeding contracts. A disreputable person would hawk them as "Rare and Unusal" as breeders of teacup Chis or other poor standard dogs do.

Dobermom, that is precisely the type of person we are discussing. Ignorant and greedy and only looking to make a buck with no regard to health or standards.

greaterdane
February 19th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Here is the ad
Rare Beautiful Male Westie Poo
Ad Number: 91003
Location: Mississauga, Ontario [Pets & Animals]
Seller: teddypups
Price: $1,200.00 USD
Available: 1
Placed: Feb 16, 2005
Expires: Mar 2, 2005


email seller | clip ad | report ad
Was not going to sell, but willing too. He is gorgeous 9 week old male. Non shed. First shots, dewormed, dewclaws removed. Health certificate. Both parents on site. Home raised, socialized, newspaper trained. Very Intelligent. Quiet and playful. The perfect companion.

Oh Good lord, he is $1200 USD?? thats like $1500 or more CAD

BigDogLover
February 19th, 2005, 01:05 PM
You will note that I said ".....you can know within reason exactly how puppies will mature."

Since puppies are not clones, of course there will always be puppies born who are not of the desired standard, and those puppies will not be bred by a reputable breeder. White paws are hardly a health danger or crippling defect, nor do white paws hinter the breed's ability to do what it was created for- to hunt. But white paws are not desirable in that breed and those puppies should be sold as pet quality with non-breeding contracts. A disreputable person would hawk them as "Rare and Unusal" as breeders of teacup Chis or other poor standard dogs do.

Dobermom, that is precisely the type of person we are discussing. Ignorant and greedy and only looking to make a buck with no regard to health or standards.


Actually we were discussing Cyberkittens premise, which I have refuted. Yes my friend does have a none breeding contract, and his dog is fixed. And no - A ridgeback is a Ridgeback anyone who does his research will know that even though this is rare, it is undesirable.

Please, will someone address the 'Labernois', aka, the Mira dog.

Dar.

twodogsandacat
February 19th, 2005, 01:26 PM
Not wanting to stir it up anymore but aren't all 'pure breed' dogs simply a mix of some previous breeds? A hope to develop or attain stronger albeit different traits or characteristics that have been recognized as desirable in both of the parents.

We had a Golden Doodle in our training class and she was a sweetheart. What traits were desired of this breeding? What did the poodle have that the golden didn't (other than size)? If it was just cosmetic then I would have to agree that monetary gain was the driving factor not a desire to develop a new breed better suited to a desirable task. Nor do I believe that these breeders have the smarts to develop a breed.

As far as pure breeds go I do believe you are more likely to know what you are gettng but I just met a couple with a newly nuetered Golden. A handsome boy with all the papers needed. The reason for the nuetering, a heart murmur (three of the six in his litter have the same condition). I also know a couple that is now on their third Newfie in three years due to complications with the legs blowing out. They have spent thousands on the purchase of these dogs, even more on vet bills and continual heartbreak. Still this is the breed that they want. My sisters perfect Shepherd did end up with hip problems as have many Shepherds I have known. I'll take my mutts from the local shelter anyday. I may not know what I am getting but it seems you take those chances anyways.

Lucky Rescue
February 19th, 2005, 01:29 PM
BigDogLover, you quoted me in your last post, which is why I responded.

"Labernois" - I don't know - Is MIRA peddling excess and intact puppies on the internet for 1500$ - 3000$? If they are, then all of the arguements against mutt breeding apply to them as well.

I'm under the impression that many of you are breeders? So this is what it's all about? It really isn't about the dogs! *scratches head*

I"m scratching my head too. Can you explain what you mean?

BigDogLover
February 19th, 2005, 01:38 PM
I will be diplomatic and say your comments are simply not entirely accurate. Perhaps I should have said "good" science and I use the term loosely. I am well aware of the "evils" if you want to call them that that have been done in the name of science. Alas, it has been too much.


Which part of my post would you like to refute? science is science, it can't be subdivided into 'good and bad', *smiles* alas, these too, are subjective.

Again. I'm not disputing the fact that, many of these breeders are disreputable, or that a 1200$USD price tag on a mutt is ridiculous. What I am disputing is your original premise, it's flawed.

In the end I think we all agree that something needs to be done. How does one begin the journey of a thousand steps? He takes the first step! Then proceeds one step at a time. You start by saving the one by educating the one, knowledge will then spread like a rampant case of the flu.

Lucky,
These dogs aren't being peddled by Mira, as far as I know, but they are showing up in rescues and shelters like unwanted weeds. What gives them the right to propagate a new breed and not the breeders of the Labradoodle? Both are showing up in shelters? Where do we start to lay blame?

Dar.

Lucky Rescue
February 19th, 2005, 01:41 PM
As far as pure breeds go I do believe you are more likely to know what you are gettng but I just met a couple with a newly nuetered Golden. A handsome boy with all the papers needed. The reason for the nuetering, a heart murmur (three of the six in his litter have the same condition). I also know a couple that is now on their third Newfie in three years due to complications with the legs blowing out. They have spent thousands on the purchase of these dogs, even more on vet bills and continual heartbreak. Still this is the breed that they want. My sisters perfect Shepherd did end up with hip problems as have many Shepherds I have known. I'll take my mutts from the local shelter anyday. I may not know what I am getting but it seems you take those chances anyways.

Once again - "papers" are NOT a guarantee of quality. They are NOT a guarantee that a breeder is reputable. Papers mean ONLY that the dog is purebred. It could be riddled with genetic defects and still have papers. The AKC/CKC does absolutely nothing to curb bad breeding.

If people are breeding dogs with heart defects, HD, or other inheritable bad traits, they are NOT GOOD BREEDERS, no matter if they have a million registration papers.

For anyone wanting to buy a purebred puppy it's up to them to make sure the breeder is doing everything possible to better the breed and to do it right.

"Let the buyer beware". Do your homework!

meowzart
February 19th, 2005, 02:06 PM
what a labernois?

as far as purebred dogs go there seems to be some assumptionthat a champion will put out the best pet??? I don't think so. Champions are bred for form shape and looks not necessarily temperament. Just because they are a champion doesn't mean that they are going to be any better pet than one that isn't. So that doesn't work for me.

Cyberkitty - you obviousy haven't researched how the ragdoll got started - believe me there was ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENCE in that - the woman was wacky!!! As with every breed now there are those with knowledge and who are doing breeding to better the breed and those who aren't.

If people are breeding dogs with heart defects, HD, or other inheritable bad traits, they are NOT GOOD BREEDERS, no matter if they have a million registration papers
i don't think anyone is disputing that point - i don't see why it keeps coming up.

CyberKitten
February 19th, 2005, 02:22 PM
I love the metaphor of knowledge spreading like a rampant case of the flu - that's priceless, <g> I may use that in one of my lectures sometime if you don't mind! (I will give you credit- "someone with the avatar of BigDog Lover though is all I can attribute -- :) )

At this point, I am not even sure what my original premise was, lol I just wanted to raise the issue of designer breeds - and express my opposition to the indiscriminate breeding of dogs (or any animal for that matter). I utilize the term "indiscriminate" because I do think some genetic work warrants approval but only if it is done in an ethical manner - backed over time by critical and the well known established protocols of research.

Even then, I think one needs to ask hard querstions. Did anyone see the CNN segment last night on the Liger - a cross between a tiger and a lion? Yet more cross breeding. Does this advance the health of the lion or the tiger?

I dare not raise the whole issue of natural selection - we have already opened the genie bottle and there is no turning back. Fish farming, frankenfoods, chickens raised to give us eggs that are supposedly better for us.

With these dogs, I guess the tampering with nature bothers me but the profiterring from live beings upsets me more.

I was being extremely "general" in my reference to good and bad science. Bad science leads me to think of Frankenfoods, Franekenstein even, and that other monster Hitler et al and their experiments. There is still "bad" science today of course - the debate over cloning. The science behind cloning may be "progressive" and even exiting but do I really want to clone my kitten? Especially when Dolly had so many medical problems! (But I digress!) I guess as a physician I see "good" science as science that is used to help humankind in some positive way. "Bad" science conjures up atomic weapons, biological warfare and drugs like thalidomide. However, the same scientific discoveries hehind atomic weapons also gave us radiology - which helps saves lives of people with cancer- (Marie Curie, one of my idols died of cancer resulting from her work wirh Xrays and one suspects she was still pleased with her work) and the research that led to biological weapons also gave us many medical breakthroughs. In the end, it is how we as humans utilize the science and our own skills.

I consider it unethical for someone to breed these animals in their home (or back yard of you will) simply to make a profit. They may love their animals but it is really tough to see how they have actually considered the overall impact of their work on the population.


[

meowzart
February 19th, 2005, 03:04 PM
wonder if there would be less dogs in shelters if in fact the breeds were changing to more fit in with the 21st century family ? If more people got lower energy pets instead of herding breeds for instance, I wonder of less would get dropped off because the family can't handle the workload.

GOOD POINT! We got our mixed breed and boy if we weren't committed people she would have been sent back! She was not at all like what we thought we were getting. She was a quiet mild mannered little thing that turns out to be a wily energetic bouncing herding dog! sheesh. :eek:

I agree - too many dogs have instincts that don't 'fit' our lifestyles today :(

Good sentence CK - I too opose indiscriminate breeding, but I am unwilling to accept point blank that any and all cross breed breeding is indeed indiscriminate.

that pretty much sums it up for me too.

mona_b
February 19th, 2005, 04:02 PM
No we are not breeders.So you can stop scratching your head.

I have never looked at showing any of my dogs.Which by the way are GSD's.I wanted a pet,along with one being used for the Police Force.But my breeder was showing and did have Titled dogs.Did any of this mean anything to me?YES.These dogs where of breed standard.They were not just show dogs,but working dogs.And yes,they are also bred for temperment.Do you actually think that if a breeder has a shy or even a bit of an aggresive that they will breed?Heck no.

The reson alot of these dogs are put in the pounds and shelters is that they did not research the breed.They bought on impulse.Didn't bother to think it through if the pup/dog does fit their lifestyle.And then their are the excuses.

Oh,by the way,neither Irish Wolfhounds or the Elk Hound is extinct.

greaterdane
February 19th, 2005, 04:41 PM
"Dobermom, that is precisely the type of person we are discussing. Ignorant and greedy and only looking to make a buck with no regard to health or standards."

And yet dobermans are now considered a breed, and their breeders can be listed in the "responsible" catagory.





She wasnt talking about dobermans, just what I had posted earlier about the $1200 USD westiepoo :) and my name on here is dobermom80

greaterdane
February 19th, 2005, 04:52 PM
LOL its ok, I wasnt offended :) :p

meowzart
February 19th, 2005, 05:07 PM
Do you actually think that if a breeder has a shy or even a bit of an aggresive that they will breed?Heck no.

well you certainly live in a more idealistic world than I!

Because the the answer is that breeders DO sacrifice health or temperament for 'show' form. You haven't delved into the breeding world far enough if you think that doesn't happen!!!!!!!

Not that I think that they are GOOD breeders but ...

mona_b
February 19th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Because the the answer is that breeders DO sacrifice health or temperament for 'show' form. You haven't delved into the breeding world far enough if you think that doesn't happen!!!!!!!

Oh trust me I have been.For the past 20 years.I am involved in the dog shows.I am also involved with the CKC.So yes,I know enough there is to know.

LL1
February 19th, 2005, 06:50 PM
You're right.And you can get dogs with papers in rescue,as well as purebred puppies.I don't see any need to go to a breeder.The worst of course are those who's breed are killed in shelters all the time.People who go to breeders for those dogs make me ill.
Once again - "papers" are NOT a guarantee of quality. They are NOT a guarantee that a breeder is reputable. Papers mean ONLY that the dog is purebred. It could be riddled with genetic defects and still have papers. The AKC/CKC does absolutely nothing to curb bad breeding.

For anyone wanting to buy a purebred puppy it's up to them to make sure the breeder is doing everything possible to better the breed and to do it right.

"Let the buyer beware". Do your homework!

LL1
February 19th, 2005, 06:52 PM
Sadly you are right.
well you certainly live in a more idealistic world than I!

Because the the answer is that breeders DO sacrifice health or temperament for 'show' form. You haven't delved into the breeding world far enough if you think that doesn't happen!!!!!!!

Not that I think that they are GOOD breeders but ...

mona_b
February 19th, 2005, 07:02 PM
People who go to breeders for those dogs make me ill.

Guess I'm one of those people........... :D

And I guess all the K-9 officers too.Hmmmm,I will have to tell my brother and his buddies that. ;)

LL1
February 19th, 2005, 07:27 PM
I guess you are.Companion owners are also very different than those that need working dogs from proven lines.I understand some forces use rescues BTW.You'd be surprised what rescues can do.

mona_b
February 19th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Actually they don't.I know this not only because my brother is on the K-9 unit,but because I too am on the force.Their dogs come from breeders who are titled in SchH III.The sires are imported from Europe.The force will not take a dog on till they are 18 months old.So untill then,they are fostered out for 18months.They are taught all basic commands and then some.The majority of the time they are taught in German.How do I know this?I have my brothers partner Tron.I was the one who did all of his basic training.I did all the socializing.Getting used to all the different sites and sounds.This all took alot of hard work.Then when he was 18 months,my brother took him.He went through Obedience and passed.Then he went on to the SchH.He passed with flying colours.Tron retired a little over a year ago.He came back home to me.

Lucky Rescue
February 19th, 2005, 07:58 PM
It's very true that breeders will continue to breed dogs with "iffy" temperaments, and even human aggression if the dog is a winner in conformation or performance. I saw this myself recently when a (gasp!) Golden Retriever savagely attacked it's handler for no reason and continued with the showing while the handler went to the emergency room. However, they are not the definition of "responsible and ethical breeders" we are discussing.

As for going to breeders - if I had my heart set on a King Cavalier Spaniel, a Lowchen, Norwich Terrier, or a Swedish Vallhund, chances are I would have to go to a breeder. (Or I can wait til Disney features them in a movie and they are aquired and dumped en masse after bybers start pumping them out. :rolleyes: )

If I wanted a husky, Lab or pit bull, I would never go to a breeder as I would unfortunately have my pick at both shelters and rescues.

These dogs aren't being peddled by Mira, as far as I know, but they are showing up in rescues and shelters like unwanted weeds. What gives them the right to propagate a new breed and not the breeders of the Labradoodle? Both are showing up in shelters? Where do we start to lay blame?

You know for a fact that these dogs were bred and discarded by MIRA? If Mira is breeding and dumping puppies at shelters, they are no better than any other backyard breeder and should be regarded as such. Many breeds can be used as service and guide dogs, and there is no reason to be breeding for this, as the odds of getting suitable puppies by breeding is no better than pulling dogs from shelters and training them for this work.

CyberKitten
February 19th, 2005, 08:16 PM
I have to agree with Lucky. It depends on the breed of dog or cat or rabbit (perhaps I should just say pet) you are seeking where you find your pet. This thread was supposed to be about desinger breeds and we have gone a bit astray - pun intended - but for some breeds, one probably has no choice but to either go to a reputable breeder found through shows or the various networks or to a specific breed rescue organization. I suppose it depends on the popularity of the breed as you pointed out Lucky.

I recently read that less than 10% of kittens purchased from breeders end up in a rescue organization. Mind you, I have to determine how that correlates with the 25% of animal shelters that are purebred animals. But it is true that someone who spends much time researching a breed and finding the proper breed for her or him will likely surrender the pet unless forced to by some disaster in their own life.

And yes, there are many breeds whose purpose is almost rendered redundant by the kind of society we have now. There are many border collies yet how many people truly require a herding dog? And so many more of us are urbanites who work fulltime and need to factor our lifestyle in.

mona_b
February 19th, 2005, 08:21 PM
Many breeds can be used as service and guide dogs, and there is no reason to be breeding for this, as the odds of getting suitable puppies by breeding is no better than pulling dogs from shelters and training them for this work.

True to a point.But remember most of these dogs/pups in the shelters have not been health or genetic tested.Which you and I know is very important,because this is what we talk about alot.... :) And nothing is known about the parents.This is why the odds are much higher getting a suitable pup from a breeder with titled dogs then from shelters.Assistance dogs do come from the shelters though. :)

LL1
February 19th, 2005, 08:30 PM
Don't what?
Actually they don't..

LL1
February 19th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Too right Lucky on all counts.And you can also add alot of other top breeds being killed to that list.
It's very true that breeders will continue to breed dogs with "iffy" temperaments, and even human aggression if the dog is a winner in conformation or performance.
If I wanted a husky, Lab or pit bull, I would never go to a breeder as I would unfortunately have my pick at both shelters and rescues.

Many breeds can be used as service and guide dogs, and there is no reason to be breeding for this, as the odds of getting suitable puppies by breeding is no better than pulling dogs from shelters and training them for this work.

mona_b
February 19th, 2005, 08:34 PM
I understand some forces use rescues BTW.

This is what I meant.

LL1
February 19th, 2005, 09:01 PM
You're wrong.Several forces do,Barrie and Whitby being just a couple.I'm in rescue and I know rescue has been approached.Whitby is preferred as the dogs live in the homes according to SPCA staff.In the US,its' even more prolific,a friend rescues Sheps there and they supply all kinds of places.In Ontario if it is a proper force with money,they import the dogs from New York and they are Czech dogs,if they are rinky dink,they get from a shelter or rescue or an Ontario or Canadian breeder.

Its more common in the states, police and sherrifs depts in Texas,Iowa,Wisconsin and Maryland use rescue Sheps,Florida,New England,New Jersey State Police,New York State Police,Austin Police Force,Air Force,K9,SAR,coast guard,sheriff's offices,dept of corrections,ground zero,you name it,rescued GSDs are there.New England has placed dogs for both dual purpose patrol and single purpose,and SAR. In the UK all police dogs are donated or from rescue.

Lucky Rescue
February 19th, 2005, 10:22 PM
MANY bomb sniffing/drug detection etc dogs come from shelters and pounds. The parentage or breed is not important as drive and determination are paramount, along with good temperament.

It's ironic that many dogs are dumped for having too much drive, energy or determination - qualities that are prized by police/armed forces, SAR and as hearing dogs etc.

Oops - getting off topic here. Sowwy! :p

glasslass
February 19th, 2005, 11:56 PM
What about breeding for specific traits, such as the pushed in noses of persians and bulldogs. How can this be considered for the betterment of the breed? It breaks my heart to see the respiratory problems these pets suffer. And why must some breeds have cosmetic surgery to meet the standards of the breed? Dobies, for example.

meowzart
February 20th, 2005, 12:53 AM
What about breeding for specific traits, such as the pushed in noses of persians and bulldogs. How can this be considered for the betterment of the breed
that's what I was referring to when I was talking about breeding for extremes of the breed not being in the best interest of the animal. Diddn't want to name specifics though and get in trouble!! :sad:

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 12:58 AM
And why must some breeds have cosmetic surgery to meet the standards of the breed? Dobies, for example.

The standards were written way back when the breed actually worked. :(
Don't open up Pandora's box, Vets refuse to crop ears, but will declaw a cat. Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this? Oh right, one is cosmetic, the other is outright mutilation.

MANY bomb sniffing/drug detection etc dogs come from shelters and pounds. The parentage or breed is not important as drive and determination are paramount, along with good temperament.

I was under the impression that, bomb/drug sniffing dogs began training at the age of 8 weeks, and that parentage is paramount for selection. Have I been misinformed?

and even human aggression if the dog is a winner in conformation or performance. I saw this myself recently when a (gasp!) Golden Retriever savagely attacked it's handler for no reason and continued with the showing while the handler went to the emergency room.

From what I've just read, aggression toward other dogs is acceptable, and aggression toward humans is cause for dismissal.

You're right.And you can get dogs with papers in rescue,as well as purebred puppies.I don't see any need to go to a breeder.The worst of course are those who's breed are killed in shelters all the time.People who go to breeders for those dogs make me ill.

*bows head in shame* I've seen very few Doberman's in shelters and rescues. You want to know what makes me sick? People who sit around and whine about pet overpopulation and don't have the cahonas to do diddly about it. You're preaching to the pervert pal.

No we are not breeders.So you can stop scratching your head.

*smiles*, just bought a flea collar.

You know for a fact that these dogs were bred and discarded by MIRA? If Mira is breeding and dumping puppies at shelters, they are no better than any other backyard breeder and should be regarded as such. Many breeds can be used as service and guide dogs, and there is no reason to be breeding for this, as the odds of getting suitable puppies by breeding is no better than pulling dogs from shelters and training them for this work.


I don't really care who's dumping the dogs, the fact is they are getting dumped, and they are the 'Mira Dog'. They are being pawned off as purebred dogs, sad but true.

Note:3. Any dog exhibiting an aggressive attitude that in the judges' opinion would prevent them from FULLY examining any given dog safely, and without incident, shall be disqualified from all events conducted that day. This same dog shall be crated for the remainder of the day, or be removed from the premises of the show site. There will be no refunds of entry fees for dogs that are disqualified.

I found this clause in every instance under 'Dog show rules'.

Dar.

PS: The French ring is a more vigorous test on K9/protection dogs than the shutzhund, this came straight from several trainers that I met. The Belgian Malinois has also become the dog du jour.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 08:46 AM
I was under the impression that, bomb/drug sniffing dogs began training at the age of 8 weeks, and that parentage is paramount for selection. Have I been misinformed?

. The Belgian Malinois has also become th dog du jour.

Yes,you have been misinformed.

Well here in ontario,a few forces have tried using the Malinois.But most have stopped.Their prey drive is far to high than a GSD's.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 08:53 AM
Yes,you have been misinformed.

Well here in Ontario,a few forces have tried using the Malinois.But most have stopped.Their prey drive is far to high than a GSD's.

Actually, I was referring to the age that training begins, sorry for the confusion. As for the Malinois they are still highly heralded in Europe and most of the US. Mona, could you help me on that age issue?

Dar.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 09:30 AM
For these dogs,it depends.They mostly would like the dog to be at least a year.There are training centres that will start training at 5 months.But this is what they do though.They start training these pups,then once they are fully trained,then they are sold to the force.The handler and the dog go through at least 2-3 weeks of training together.It ends up costing the force about $17.000 for a trained dog....Hope this helped... :)

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 09:38 AM
I apologize for the going 'off topic', but K9 dogs fascinate me. I owe Lucky an apology for my post with regards to age, however, I am certain that parentage remains paramount.


Dar.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 09:45 AM
You should start a new thread about K9's............... :D

Lucky Rescue
February 20th, 2005, 10:46 AM
I was under the impression that, bomb/drug sniffing dogs began training at the age of 8 weeks, and that parentage is paramount for selection. Have I been misinformed?

Yes you were misinformed. No 8 week old puppy would be put to sniffing accelerants or bombs.

Parentage is unknown with shelter dogs. As long as they have the right stuff for the job, no one cares where they came from.

I don't really care who's dumping the dogs, the fact is they are getting dumped, and they are the 'Mira Dog'. They are being pawned off as purebred dogs, sad but true.

You said the organization MIRA is dumping excess dogs in shelters, now you say they are merely the MIRA-type mixed breed dogs. Big difference. If MIRA is not doing the dumping they should not be accused of this.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 11:09 AM
I never said Mira is dumping the dogs, I said they are known as the 'Mira Dog'. There is nothing worse than being misquoted. I will however say this, Mira created a breed of dog, the Labernois, for a specific purpose. We'll accept this, but not the labradoodle. See the hypocrisy here?

Furthermore, I have never said that Mira is dumping the dogs, I said that these dogs are popping up in shelters and rescues like wildflowers. You were insinuating that the Labradoodle breeders are responsible for the labddodle in rescue, I merely pointed out an alternative.

Dar.

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 11:15 AM
Many of the people here are doing something about it,and are rescuing animals.Dobes do land in shelters and rescues in the US and Canada.

*bows head in shame* I've seen very few Doberman's in shelters and rescues. You want to know what makes me sick? People who sit around and whine about pet overpopulation and don't have the cahonas to do diddly about it. .

You said it not me.

You're preaching to the pervert pal.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 11:20 AM
That should be 'preaching to the perverted', lol!

Rescuing a dog, to give to someone else, does not constitute, 'doing something'. I'm talking fliers handed out in front of pet shops, newspaper interviews, news interviews 'en masse'. Taking it to the public, educating them, this is what I'm talking about. I'm a new Dawg on the scene, and I'm exploring the best avenues to lay down my bite.


Arf,
Dar.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Sorry for the double post.



1 - Any takers? Our highly esteemed Mira is breeding 'Labernois' dogs, anyone care to comment on this.
2 - What about Mira? Should we hold them accountable for their 'Labernois'? I've seen many of these sad little creatures in shelters and rescues.
3 - Please, will someone address the 'Labernois', aka, the Mira dog.



This is all that I've said with regard to Mira, I have never once said they were dumping the dogs.

meowzart
February 20th, 2005, 12:14 PM
OK what/who is Mira and what is a labernois???!

meowzart
February 20th, 2005, 12:17 PM
Vets refuse to crop ears, but will declaw a cat. Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this?

NO I agree - again if people were EDUCATED on how to get a cat NOT to scratch the furniture - it's not that difficult, and if people would actually put forth the EFFORT to try to train their cat to use a scratching post....declawing would not be necessary!!!!!

I don't totally fault the vets - I fault the owners - if the vet didn't declaw the cat would be put down most likely! :(

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 12:17 PM
I was wondering the same thing...LOL

I'm guessing a Labernois is a Labrador/Belgian Malinois mix??????????????

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 12:35 PM
Mira is the Dog foundation for the blind, I gues only in Quebec. A Labernois is the cross between a Lab and a Bernese Mountain Dog.


Dar.

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 12:53 PM
I think you mean preaching to the CONVERTED or preaching to the choir.Preaching to the perverted is very disturbing.Do a look up on dictionary.com and you will learn what that word means.
That should be 'preaching to the perverted', lol!

Arf,
Dar.

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 12:55 PM
I disagree.Rescuing a dog and neutering/spaying it and placing it in a new home does constitute doing something.Many rescues also speak to the public through all kinds of media,paper,radio,television,magazines,websites etc.

Rescuing a dog, to give to someone else, does not constitute, 'doing something'. I'm talking fliers handed out in front of pet shops, newspaper interviews, news interviews 'en masse'. Taking it to the public, educating them, this is what I'm talking about. I'm a new Dawg on the scene, and I'm exploring the best avenues to lay down my bite.


Arf,
Dar.

Writing4Fun
February 20th, 2005, 01:07 PM
A Labernois is the cross between a Lab and a Bernese Mountain Dog.
Maybe I missed an earlier post, but what would be the benefit of this mix in this line of work, as opposed to a pure-bred Lab or Berner?

Carina
February 20th, 2005, 01:10 PM
OK what/who is Mira and what is a labernois???!

http://www.mira.ca/contenta/nc1-3a.html

greaterdane
February 20th, 2005, 01:10 PM
In english it is the The Labernese and in french it is
Le Labernois because Bernese is Bernois apparently.
Because by calling it a labernois you would never think (as someone speaking english) that the cross would be BMD and lab, you would think belgian malinois and lab, I dont know if its just me but thats what i thought.

Carina
February 20th, 2005, 01:19 PM
Dobermom, that's what I thought too.
I Googled "Mira Labernois" and got the site. Had to translate it to English.

Carina
February 20th, 2005, 01:23 PM
From their site:
"Mira Foundation possesses livestock of 1000 dogs and insures a follow-up of the dog throughout its life."

They have "livestock" of over 1000 dogs on site? And this ensures followup how?
No mention of any foundation dogs, sire/dam info, or anything specific about all this genetic testing & what have you they supposedly do so carefully. Just lots of talk...

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Mira is the Dog foundation for the blind, I gues only in Quebec. A Labernois is the cross between a Lab and a Bernese Mountain Dog.


Dar.

Thank you... :)

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 01:31 PM
So now we have a Labernois.

Oh man will it EVER end..... :sad:

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 01:34 PM
Maybe I missed an earlier post, but what would be the benefit of this mix in this line of work, as opposed to a pure-bred Lab or Berner?

There is no befefit in my eyes.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 01:55 PM
I think you mean preaching to the CONVERTED or preaching to the choir.Preaching to the perverted is very disturbing.Do a look up on dictionary.com and you will learn what that word means.

Actually, I mean 'preaching to the perverted', it's a double entendre. Perverted meaning - keen, already converted, etc...

I'm new here, and I'd like to make a difference. My methods for acquiring knowledge for my own edification are at times aggressive, I mean no harm, and most of the time I question within a statement. Occasionally I'll offer an opinionated view, this doesn't equate to me not being open to change.

I disagree.Rescuing a dog and neutering/spaying it and placing it in a new home does constitute doing something.Many rescues also speak to the public through all kinds of media,paper,radio,television,magazines,websites etc.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful, I'm merely suggesting that it may not be enough. Breeders can be the key in the reduction of pet overpopulation. Allow me to make a proposal.

1 - target puppy mills through the education of people on the link between Pet shop purchases and puppy mills.
2 - education on Back yard Breeders.
3 - Reputable breeders begin offering pet quality animals at a reasonable price.
4 - Make humans accountable for their pets, via obligatory altering of animal, If they decide not to keep an animal for any reason other than medical, they are liable for the animals well being until a suitable home is found. Rescues need only get involved in medical situations.

I'm aware that this is not perfect, but it's a start. A written legal proposal to the proper officials espoused with continued lobbying may make a difference.

Mona,

You're welcome, and I agree, both breeds are great dogs alone, I see no need. In fact, I see more logic in the Labradoodle than the Labernois.

Dar.

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Where did you see that as a definition of the word?
Actually, I mean 'preaching to the perverted', it's a double entendre. Perverted meaning - keen, already converted, etc...

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 02:08 PM
It's not literal. Double entendre:an ambiguity with one interpretation that is indelicate. Let's try to stick to the issues, in lieu of trying to prove me wrong. I said what I said I know what it means.


Dar.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 02:11 PM
:)

Dar,I would like to add one more thing to that list.Puppies sold at pet stores.Something needs to be done about this.There have been numerous times that I have gone into the same pet store at my mall.I will preach and educate the people who are looking at them.I ask it they know what a puppymill is.For those who have said yes,I tell them that the pups they are looking at come from there.And for those who don't know,I tell them that they should do a search on puppymills before wanting to buy one from a pet store.

I was in there lastweek.I played dumb and asked the workers there a ton of questions.Then I gave them answers they didn't like to hear.

The purebreds come with no registration papers.So I told them that under the CKC pedigree act,it is illegal to sell a purebred without papers.I asked if the parents have been health and genetic tested,x-rayed,are the sire and dam champions or titled.And so on.All answers were no.So I told them they are selling pups from puppy mills/byb's.And I told them that I was going to everything in my power to have them never sell pups again.After all this,the people started to walk out...... :D

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 02:20 PM
:)

Dar,I would like to add one more thing to that list.Puppies sold at pet stores.Something needs to be done about this.There have been numerous times that I have gone into the same pet store at my mall.I will preach and educate the people who are looking at them.I ask it they know what a puppymill is.For those who have said yes,I tell them that the pups they are looking at come from there.And for those who don't know,I tell them that they should do a search on puppymills before wanting to buy one from a pet store.

I was in there lastweek.I played dumb and asked the workers there a ton of questions.Then I gave them answers they didn't like to hear.

The purebreds come with no registration papers.So I told them that under the CKC pedigree act,it is illegal to sell a purebred without papers.I asked if the parents have been health and genetic tested,x-rayed,are the sire and dam champions or titled.And so on.All answers were no.So I told them they are selling pups from puppy mills/byb's.And I told them that I was going to everything in my power to have them never sell pups again.After all this,the people started to walk out...... :D

I believe that you mentioned this before, I tried it yesterday :thumbs up , I love to see people squirm. One dog at a time, one Human at a time. I'd enjoy getting together with some of the rescues around here, their are several. Lucky is just around the corner, Foxy's is not to far away, maybe get some heat going.

Dar.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 02:53 PM
I believe that you mentioned this before, I tried it yesterday :thumbs up , I love to see people squirm. One dog at a time, one Human at a time. I'd enjoy getting together with some of the rescues around here, their are several. Lucky is just around the corner, Foxy's is not to far away, maybe get some heat going.

Dar.

Good for you..... :thumbs up ....Keep it up....I guess we are the ones who have to educate these people at the pet stores.

At some of the meetings at the CKC,we have been seriously trying to figure out how we can go about making sure that pups/kittens are not sold in the pet stores.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Petland, gets their dogs through head office, they are now sold as 'type' not purebred, interesting! The venders and managers have no Idea of where the dogs come from prior to head office, or do they?

Pet shops should not be allowed to sell dogs, cats, ferrets, etc..., with an exception to lizards, providing that they have staff knowledgable about the critters in question and that they sell captive bred only.(even this I'm uncomfortable with)

Dar.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 03:03 PM
Oh I'm sure they know.

The pet store that I do my education seminars :D ,call their pups Hybreds.And can you believe they have a sign stating the difference. :rolleyes:

Lucky Rescue
February 20th, 2005, 03:05 PM
Lucky is just around the corner, Foxy's is not to far away,

If you want to help save lives, would you like to foster or adopt a cat? We have many now in desperate need - all young and gorgeous tom cats left out in the bitter cold or dumped, and not one of them neutered. To foster,all that is needed is a spare bedroom, a willingness to bring them to our adoption events and to allow potential adopters to view them in your home by appointment.

You can see them all in the Adopt a Cat forum and if you want to help, call Debbie at (450)424-0455.

greaterdane
February 20th, 2005, 03:59 PM
Petland here in Niagara gets there puppies from a mill in Dunville, they dont really ever sell purebreds and they are all like $1500 with financing available. YUCK! :yuck:

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 04:06 PM
PJ"s in Toronto was selling a Shep/Collie for $899

How insane is that?

happycats
February 20th, 2005, 04:10 PM
PJ's is a horrible place !!
I know quite a few people who have bought dogs there, and every single one has had alot of medical issues, and or serious aggression problems!!

I go to the one in my area quite often, and ask the staff alot of questions to fluster them in front of potential customers. they get so angry sometimes. :rolleyes:

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 04:15 PM
If you want to help save lives, would you like to foster or adopt a cat? We have many now in desperate need - all young and gorgeous tom cats left out in the bitter cold or dumped, and not one of them neutered. To foster,all that is needed is a spare bedroom, a willingness to bring them to our adoption events and to allow potential adopters to view them in your home by appointment.

You can see them all in the Adopt a Cat forum and if you want to help, call Debbie at (450)424-0455.

We have already adopted a cat, and a Dog. My avatar is Bowtie, and Tobias is posted in my intro page and we have another puppy on the way. My son has allergies, and the fact that he tolerates Bow is inexplicable.(dander thing we were told) But as I mentioned in my PM, I'm sure there are other ways in which I could serve some purpose to you.

Dar.

Writing4Fun
February 20th, 2005, 04:42 PM
Re: the Labernois (Labernese):
What I'd like to know is what was their reasoning for mixing these two breeds? I mean, does the Berner have some inherent trait that makes it ideal as a service dog, but doesn't work in a Berner's body? :confused:

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 04:47 PM
PJs also sold Labradoodles for $1700,I know of one in rescue.
PJ"s in Toronto was selling a Shep/Collie for $899

How insane is that?

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 04:48 PM
No.What you posted was incorrect and inappropriate for a family site.You proved yourself wrong,that's not my job.
It's not literal. Double entendre:an ambiguity with one interpretation that is indelicate. Let's try to stick to the issues, in lieu of trying to prove me wrong. I said what I said I know what it means.


Dar.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 05:18 PM
You need to win, okay, you win!

Double entendre is acceptable writing, perverted is a word look it up. It is neither vulgar nor a curse word. Are you opposed to the term 'bitch' with regard to a female dog? One can even have a perverse sense of humour. Oh well! Can we move on now, or do you need to 'nit pic' some more? PM me with your gripe.


Have you objected to the thread titled, 'What a bitch' ?(or did you miss the pun?)
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=3197

You can stop the 'Joan of Arc' act now!

Dar.

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 05:23 PM
One can even have a perverse sense of humour.


Sooooo true....... :D

CyberKitten
February 20th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Re: The purebreds come with no registration papers.So I told them that under the CKC pedigree act,it is illegal to sell a purebred without papers.I asked if the parents have been health and genetic tested,x-rayed,are the sire and dam champions or titled.And so on.All answers were no.So I told them they are selling pups from puppy mills/byb's.And I told them that I was going to everything in my power to have them never sell pups again.After all this,the people started to walk out......
_________________

Well done Mona!!!

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Re: The purebreds come with no registration papers.So I told them that under the CKC pedigree act,it is illegal to sell a purebred without papers.I asked if the parents have been health and genetic tested,x-rayed,are the sire and dam champions or titled.And so on.All answers were no.So I told them they are selling pups from puppy mills/byb's.And I told them that I was going to everything in my power to have them never sell pups again.After all this,the people started to walk out......
_________________

Well done Mona!!!

Thank you CK...... :D

I can be a Biotch when the need arises.... ;) :p

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 06:03 PM
I do know the word, and did look it up as well.It was inappropriate and incorrect in your usage.You will not admit that.That's fine,clearly it's an issue for you.
You need to win, okay, you win!

Double entendre is acceptable writing, perverted is a word look it up. It is neither vulgar nor a curse word. You can stop the 'Joan of Arc' act now!

Dar.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 06:20 PM
per·vert·ed ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-vūrtd)
adj.
1 - Deviating from what is considered right and correct: a perverted idea of justice.
2 - Of, relating to, or practising sexual perversion.
3 - Marked by misinterpretation or distortion: a perverted translation of an epic poem.

Where do you see anything wrong in this? Do you really want to continue this silly crusade?

Again I ask, have you addressed this:
Have you objected to the thread titled, 'What a bitch' ?(or did you miss the pun?)

For the benefit of others who want to discuss, can we please end the bickering?


Meow,
Dar.

LL1
February 20th, 2005, 06:22 PM
Lucky did a great post.So to interrupts regular programing and risk being off topic, please!If you love dogs,or cats,support rescue!If you love a special breed,help rescue!Rescues ALWAYS need donations,fosters,volunteers,home checkers,transporters!PLEASE help dogs in need!All breed rescues are always overwhelmed,and popular purebred rescues are also!If you love the breed,help rescue!!!!!!!!I can post rescues in your area,or for your breed,please, please help!It's easy to talk about rescue,how about really help?

mona_b
February 20th, 2005, 06:23 PM
Oh for geezes sake,give it up.


My 17 year old daughter uses that word....OOOOOOOOOO,I better wash her mouth out with soap..... :rolleyes:

Lucky Rescue
February 20th, 2005, 09:50 PM
2 - education on Back yard Breeders

Okay, Dar - now I'm scratching my head. You propose education about backyard breeders so I assume you do not approve of them, yet aren't you buying a puppy from one? :confused:

happycats
February 20th, 2005, 10:08 PM
ummmmmm.........interesting......http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/flamethrower.gif

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 10:11 PM
No dear, not everyone who breeds dogs are backyard breeders. The parents are health certified and have a pedigree and so on and so on. I had to go through an interview and sign a contract. The only reason I got a puppy is because a friend of mine is their neighbour and gave me a good recommendation.

Sheesh, that's twice you put words into my mouth. Third times a charm.

You guys do have trouble keeping on topic, again, if you feel the need to be right, be my guest, I'm secure enough within myself to stand by my convictions, without having the need to be right all the time.

Is this about me not wanting to foster cats because of my sons allergies, yes we have a cat, and if you'd like to contact his doctor I'd be more than willing to oblige. Passive aggression is so unbecoming.

Oh and I explored the rescue avenue prior to making my decision.

Okay, Dar - now I'm scratching my head.

Get a flea collar, I did, it works wonders.

Meow,
Dar.

Lucky Rescue
February 20th, 2005, 10:46 PM
A simple question brought on this barrage of hostility and sarcasm? Hmmm...

What words did I put in your mouth please? YOU told us these people have 4 dogs and are pumping out two litters a year. Why? For what purpose? What health testing has been done? And pedigrees mean nothing unless the dogs who are being bred have championships in something.

You said:
you want to know what makes me sick? People who sit around and whine about pet overpopulation and don't have the cahonas to do anything about it.

Are people who buy from backyard breeders who are partly responsible for the overpopulation included among those who make you sick?

I certainly have no hard feelings against anyone who doesn't wish to foster and that comment was low and uncalled for. I merely suggested the fostering because YOU said you wanted to help, dear.

happycats
February 20th, 2005, 10:52 PM
http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/signs/dontfeedtrolls.gif

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 11:01 PM
1 - First you accused me of saying that ' Mira was dumping dogs ', I never said that. 2 - Then the BYB remark. Each female has a litter a year, I've already spoken with their Vet, and I have an appointment when I pick up the puppy(set up by the breeder). Furthermore this litter was the last for the female in question, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Are people who buy from backyard breeders who are partly responsible for the overpopulation included among those who make you sick?

I'm rethinking that one. But for now, people who alienate those who wish to help, definately don't make the A-List. So, continue making your assumptions, your entitled to an opinion.

Oh and your pal that accused me of using foul language, wonders never cease.

I certainly have no hard feelings against anyone who doesn't wish to foster and that comment was low and uncalled for. I merely suggested the fostering because YOU said you wanted to help, dear.

1 - Wanting to help, doesn't mean I want a zoo. 2 - one low blow deserves another.


Meow, scratch scratch,
Dar.

BigDogLover
February 20th, 2005, 11:04 PM
http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/signs/dontfeedtrolls.gif


Whose the troll? I just want to have a discussion, but I continuously get Ad hommed.

Dar.

Carina
February 21st, 2005, 07:55 AM
Whose the troll? I just want to have a discussion, but I continuously get Ad hommed.
Dar.

Wouldn't the French spelling of ad hominem be "a homme?" (Directed towards the man, I guess would be the literal translation.)
Sorry, just nitpicking. :)

Dar I saw the photo of the rainbow litter in your intro thread, very cute! What is the kennel name? A friend here shows & works her Dobies & they both came out of Canada, near Montreal. She's real hooked into the Doberman work & show circuit. I know her boy is a Faubert dog, from near you I think.

CyberKitten
February 21st, 2005, 11:19 AM
The French translation "to the man" would be "ą l'homme". (I think, lol) And wow, so much hostility. Dar, I have to make one comment re this comment: "No dear, not everyone who breeds dogs are backyard breeders"

With all due respect, why are you so condescending just to make a minor point? ( I realize we do not all belong to Mensa but you can at least be polite). The last time someone called me dear, I asked them politely since they did not know me if they would in future desist from using that term. It can be very irritating - especially between two people of different genders. Then it becomes sexist as well as demeaning. I think you owe Lucky an apology.

As for obtaining a dog or cat from a reputable breeder (i.e. one who only selectively and medically supervised breeds a titled champion), I have no problem with that - since my cat comes from that kind of breeder. It is the breeders who uncaringly and unknowlededgeably bring animals into an overpopulated world that I want to stop! That includes millers, byb and even people who think their pet is so beautiful she'd have lovely babies, sigh!!!

Schwinn
February 21st, 2005, 12:41 PM
You know, I think I had a point about the original topic, but I seem to have lost it somewhere around here...what were we talking about again??

meowzart
February 21st, 2005, 12:49 PM
everybody b-r-e-a-t-h-e!

Carina
February 21st, 2005, 01:02 PM
...what were we talking about again??

Oh, right...designer breeds!

and spelling and etymology and genetics and backyard breeders and Mira and horrible pet stores and what's the proper level of comitment for rescuers and....

There was just a show on The Science Channel about how dogs evolved. Sure, most recognised breeds were bred for a specific job and became standardised over generations.
But as pointed out, not only do many of those breeds no longer have jobs (as wolf or deer hunters, bull baiters, cart dogs, turnspits, etc) but I fail to see how creating whole new breeds can improve on the function already existing for the few jobs we provide now.
Sorry, horrid sentence construction.

But I mean (for instance) have not Labradors already proven themselves as awesome leader dogs? So what on earth is the point of breeding BMDs and Labs? I still don't get it. :confused:

Bottom line most of the poo-poo breeds are bought by folks who want to be able to say the have a Tag Hauer watch, an Ikea dinette set, a Coach bag, and look how cute, this is my new "Morkie" yes it's a new breed.
People are stupid. That's all I can say.

mastifflover
February 21st, 2005, 01:33 PM
Personally this Labernese is basically a vets dream because since they are not health testing they are breeding 2 dogs with varied health problems and creating a dog with all the health issues rolled into one. Wow how smart these people are. I love BMD's but if you are not rescuing and are getting one of these dogs you definitely want to go to a reputable breeder because they do have there share of problems. Same as all these labs and retrievers from byb and puppymills no temperment testing and people just assume they have the great lab or retriever personality but not necessarily so some of these have a great propensity to bite. But if you understand that these places are run by the scum of the earth and you buy one of there dogs and it bites you it is Karma biting you in the a$$ for being an a$$ by supporting them.

BigDogLover
February 21st, 2005, 08:02 PM
Wouldn't the French spelling of ad hominem be "a homme?" (Directed towards the man, I guess would be the literal translation.)
Sorry, just nitpicking. :)

Dar I saw the photo of the rainbow litter in your intro thread, very cute! What is the kennel name? A friend here shows & works her Dobies & they both came out of Canada, near Montreal. She's real hooked into the Doberman work & show circuit. I know her boy is a Faubert dog, from near you I think.

A l'homme would be correct. I just cut it down to ad hommed[sic](past tense).

Our breeder is affiliated with a relatively large kennel, in Montreal(They train protection dogs), that is where she passed her Maitre chien. I hardly think that two litters by two different females in a year constitutes breeding(I can say this right?) for money. If you feel that it is then there's nothing I can do about it, except that one puppy(along with Bow, Tobe, Rosey and Monty) will have a warm house to reside in for a very long time.

Cyberkitten, you don't like the word 'Dear'? Okay!

Why am I on trial here, No witches left to hunt down?

Dar.

Carina
February 21st, 2005, 08:07 PM
A l'homme would be correct. I just cut it down to ad hommed[sic](past tense).

Gotcha. For us commoners who wouldn't have understood otherwise. :) Your past tense is also incorrect, but I guess even uber-mensans are allowed such slips.


Our breeder is affiliated with a relatively large kennel, in Montreal(They train protection dogs), that is where she passed her Maitre chien. I hardly think that two litters by two different females in a year constitutes breedin(I can say this right?) for money. If you feel that it is then there's nothing I can do about it, except that one puppy(along with Bow, Tobe, Rosey and Monty) will have a warm house to reside in for a very long time.

Yes, still not impressed with "large kennel which breeds protection dogs." Whatever.
So, kennel name?
It is quite an appropriate practice, breeding one litter per year for healthy females within the proper age range.
What kennel?

You're not on trial. But your supercilious attitude and silly bragging about mensa blah blah just gets people's hackles up. Most people show up, start posting, and get along. ;)

BigDogLover
February 21st, 2005, 08:24 PM
Ad - to
hominem - accusitive of

If it were french instead of latin it would translate to 'a L'homme', what's your point?

By 'Get along' you must mean 'Conform'.

Carina
February 21st, 2005, 08:29 PM
Yes I know what ad hominem means. Notice I said literal translation.

Quit dicking around, I am done with the language lessons. You are being irritating.

Kennel name? Most people would be proud to announce this.
Cooper is an Evrmor "Duke" son.
So.
Kennel name?

Karin
February 21st, 2005, 08:57 PM
Yes I know what ad hominem means. Notice I said literal translation.

Quit dicking around, I am done with the language lessons. You are being irritating.

Kennel name? Most people would be proud to announce this.
Cooper is an Evrmor "Duke" son.
So.
Kennel name?


HIGH FIVES CARINA!

Anyone who has to frequent webboards, gloat and brag on themselves are lacking in social skills...they try to hide behind the obvious.
It's sad too, most of the time they shine in ignorance like a 14 karat diamond would in a goats rectum.

happycats
February 21st, 2005, 09:02 PM
LMAO. you guys are so funny :D
Don't know why Darcy felt the need to be so argumentative!!

CyberKitten
February 21st, 2005, 09:18 PM
I do not get the snippiness either - and I gave in by saying my own peice, sigh - it is not fun or interesting under these circumstances. I have lots of that elsewhere - no need for it here.

Karin
February 21st, 2005, 09:21 PM
LMAO. you guys are so funny :D
Don't know why Darcy felt the need to be so argumentative!!

Trying to impress everybody I guess. (Did not work on me)

If a race horse sprung from the gate at the bell, turned and bowed before the applauding spectator's in the stands, he would not only come in last but also dump his rider.

This horse has no rider and the finish line is out of sight.

Carina
February 21st, 2005, 09:35 PM
Sorry for participating in the absurdity. My bad, I rose to the shrimp-bait. :sorry:

"If a race horse sprung from the gate at the bell, turned and bowed before the applauding spectator's in the stands, he would not only come in last but also dump his rider."

ROTLMAO!
Well I did try to get this thread back on track.

happycats
February 21st, 2005, 09:41 PM
Karin and Carina http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage08/11.gifhttp://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage08/11.gif
That was good !!

theplainsjane
February 21st, 2005, 10:03 PM
*raises her hand*

I have a question in re: puppies in petstores. I've nothing against protesting at these stores and encouraging people to find a responsible breeder or of course, better yes, RESCUE RESCUE RESCUE...but what happens to them? If they're not bought before they outgrow their cuteness? I'm not being sarcastic. I honestly don't know. Do they dump them in shelters?

And what's so bad about a standard poodle that one has to be mixed with a labrador to be a service dog? I have two black labs. I like to call them "poor-bred" instead of "pure-bred". And they're wonderful. I love them. But I know a reputable breeder of standard poodles. They're also wonderful dogs. Loving, good temperament. Super smart. I think people get hung up on labs and goldens as service dogs because they watch too much Animal Planet (not knocking Animal Planet--we like it ourselves :) ). But...I just don't get it.

Jackie467
February 21st, 2005, 10:18 PM
The blind association most likes to use goldens and labs because they listen to commands very well. My grandmother has a genetic disease called retinitis pigmatosa (not spelled right) every one of her 8 brothers and sisters except one has it. they all went blind in their twenties, completely blind (just so you know you can be classified as leagaly blind but can still drive with thick glasses). She had a service dog that i grew up with that was a golden (most wonderful dog i ever met but thats another story), and my one great uncle and other great aunt (the only ones i'v ever met) both had black labs for serivice dogs. the labs and goldens are used most because they are known for following commands very well and not taking off at a smell like a hound would.

Carina
February 21st, 2005, 10:23 PM
Jazzmanian....I agree with you about breeding for specific traits that border on disability, like with English bulldogs, who cannot even give birth normally.
I see no point in perpetuating such breeds, personally. I admit to having a wee bit of sympathy for people breeding the "old style" English bulldogs, which at least could breath and breed normally.

Brenda, as I understand it, puppies that outgrow their cuteness in pet stores get the prices dropped in hopes someone buys them. If they outgrow their cuteness, they are dumped at the pound. The profit margin is so high on those poor dogs, I guess it doesn't matter if some aren't sold.

theplainsjane
February 21st, 2005, 10:28 PM
Carina,

Well, that's a damned shame. I wish I could have a hundred. Sort of. :)

-B

Spurby
February 21st, 2005, 10:37 PM
Lucky did a great post.So to interrupts regular programing and risk being off topic, please!If you love dogs,or cats,support rescue!If you love a special breed,help rescue!Rescues ALWAYS need donations,fosters,volunteers,home checkers,transporters!PLEASE help dogs in need!All breed rescues are always overwhelmed,and popular purebred rescues are also!If you love the breed,help rescue!!!!!!!!I can post rescues in your area,or for your breed,please, please help!It's easy to talk about rescue,how about really help?

Just thought this needed to be said again here..dogs and cats are dying all over ontario, perfectly adoptable, loveable pets. Rescue groups save them, majority of this is of their own expense, time and love. People in rescue are just like you and me, but we can't do it all alone, help is always needed, and appreciated.

My kudos to all the rescue groups here who give so much, you know who you are, and i am forever grateful for all you do :)

Carina
February 21st, 2005, 10:37 PM
Carina,

Well, that's a damned shame. I wish I could have a hundred. Sort of. :)

-B

Me too, sorta.
Luckily there are no pet stores that sell cats & dogs anywhere close to where I live. I would not spend a dime in a store that did anyhow, and I have been quite vocal about why, in the past!

theplainsjane
February 21st, 2005, 11:34 PM
A local petstore which I've always rather liked--that had fish and small mammals--oh, a few parakeets. Nothing that offended me terribly--and they're knowledgeable, clean, etc. had a bunch of puppies last time I was in. I won't go there again. They apparently sold them all. I walked by recently and they were gone. I worked for a breed of Cardigan Welsh Corgis this summer and she does a nice job. She had a litter this summer and had genetic tests for 9 generations on one side and 12 on the other. They were birthed at the vet's office, in and out of the vet's office every week...she's very reputable. And I just can't imagine doing it any other way, if at all.

In re: standards vs. labs/goldens--is there evidence that standards aren't suited well as to temperament for being service dogs, then? Seriously, I don't know about them to any great extent. I've met some and thought they were nice. Of any of the designer breeds, this one borders on being "reasonable" to an extent, but I still can't see why you wouldn't just get the poodle. Any ideas/experience?

Jackie467
February 21st, 2005, 11:45 PM
I'm not sure if they would be suitable or not just never seen or heard of one used. I think it's more the grooming issue than anything cuz if your blind grooming a poodle would be too difficult (like with a golden all you have to do is brush them and occasionaly take them to a groomer but with a poodle you would have to have them groomed professionally once a month). I'v just never seen one as a service dog. Other than grooming I think they would probably make good service dogs but i don't know that much about them.

greaterdane
February 22nd, 2005, 12:17 AM
Well my father is the director of government relations for the CNIB so I will ask him about the breeds of guide dogs. He is not a dog man but I am sure he will put me in touch with someone else. Apparently the CNIB has a private company that they go through for their dogs and do not actually have any dogs so I will get him to put me in touch with them. My dad does however say that the labs for some reason are more popular then the goldens, and they have had the goldendoodles and labradoodles come through for people allergic to dogs. Anyways I am rambling, long story short I will get the info tomorrow :)

mafiaprincess
February 25th, 2005, 12:19 AM
Not to get flamed, but this topic has come up many a time on other boards I have frequented. The guy in Australia that had the labradoodle, he had to give it up for a poodle eventually because he was still allergic. Most byb breeders of doodle crosses claim their dogs are hypo allergenic, but since we can't pick genetics there are dogs shedding poodle hair, dogs that still have the normal dander from the non doodle part of the cross, etc. And to the person who was asking about creating breeds, generally a breed is when you can mate 2 same dogs and have same offspring. If you were to cross a puggle and a puggle, you'd have some normal looking pugs and normal looking beagles in there again. It take decades of hard work to 'create' a breed, and you need a large enough gene pool to do it with. With the designer crosses, I doubt that would ever happen.

mamalucy
March 20th, 2007, 03:59 AM
Not wanting to stir it up anymore but aren't all 'pure breed' dogs simply a mix of some previous breeds? A hope to develop or attain stronger albeit different traits or characteristics that have been recognized as desirable in both of the parents.

We had a Golden Doodle in our training class and she was a sweetheart. What traits were desired of this breeding? What did the poodle have that the golden didn't (other than size)? If it was just cosmetic then I would have to agree that monetary gain was the driving factor not a desire to develop a new breed better suited to a desirable task. Nor do I believe that these breeders have the smarts to develop a breed.

As far as pure breeds go I do believe you are more likely to know what you are gettng but I just met a couple with a newly nuetered Golden. A handsome boy with all the papers needed. The reason for the nuetering, a heart murmur (three of the six in his litter have the same condition). I also know a couple that is now on their third Newfie in three years due to complications with the legs blowing out. They have spent thousands on the purchase of these dogs, even more on vet bills and continual heartbreak. Still this is the breed that they want. My sisters perfect Shepherd did end up with hip problems as have many Shepherds I have known. I'll take my mutts from the local shelter anyday. I may not know what I am getting but it seems you take those chances anyways.

Hi Everyone,
I am new to this board. I am posting because my family has been researching the "designer" puppies. My husband and I both work full time and have two kids 14 and 12 (both very active in sports, extra-curricular activities). We think it is best to have a small breed; my husband and I had an Alaskan Malamute for 11 years-she was a great dog-but we don't have alot of room now so we agreed on a small dog this time.
To get to the point, I have been watching our local dog pound and animal shelters for weeks now-it is so hard to find a small dog! The biggest reason I was attracted to some of the designer pups is because of the non-shedding. My daugher fell in love with the yorkie-poos, I saw some adorable morkies, but I have to say after some of the posts I have read, I would almost feel guilty buying one. I am not at all concerned about papers, I have no intention to breed-we just want a pet and thought one of these little non-shedding breeds would be perfect for us. Any thoughts?

CyberKitten
March 20th, 2007, 03:12 PM
I had a poodle for 17 yrs (almost all his life excerpt when he was with his mama until 10 wks). They don't shed!!!

Prin
March 20th, 2007, 04:23 PM
mamalucy, have you checked www.petfinder.com ? They might have more options in your area. Often the shelters are the easiest to find and we don't realize there are great rescues around working really hard to help animals too.

It's not about your intentions with the designer breed, but the intentions of the breeder of them. Whether you intend to breed yours or not (we prefer not ;)), the breeder you got it from is breeding for profit and not for the benefit of the dog. It is rare that these breeders keep the dogs till 8 weeks (some reputable breeders even suggest 12 weeks for these little dogs), and it's rare that they are properly immunized, regardless of what they claim.

How many regulars on this site have replied to posts where somebody bought a dog from an unethical breeder only to have it come down with Parvo or some other life threatening disease shortly after bringing it home? And how many have we heard say the unethical breeder became completely unreceptive when the owner went back for compensation?

It just happens too often. I hope you don't put your family through the possible trauma that an unethical breeder can create. It's really horrible.:o :sad:

That said, I'm sure if you post a new thread with your preferences for your future doggy, members here can try to help you find a breed that fits, and even show you some on petfinder.:)

clm
March 20th, 2007, 08:47 PM
Purebred dogs were indeed bred by cross breeding different types of dogs to achieve the desired traits they wanted. The difference between how these breeds were created and the designer breeds of today is that they wanted to create a dog for a specific purpose. To excel at hunting or herding or carting or pulling sleds. Some even to be nothing more than a sign of aristocricy (sp). They were not bred to make money. The designer dogs of today are being bred by people soley to make money. No one will ever convince me they are trying to create a new better breed, it's purely to fill a niche to supply an ignorant public a dog that's non-shedding, or really cute with a really cutsie pie name to go along with it and to make as much money as possible filling that niche. As long as there are ignorant people willing to pay enourmous sums for these dogs, and as long as pet shops are allowed to sell puppies, this problem is never going to go away.

Cindy

coppperbelle
March 20th, 2007, 09:36 PM
It is really unfortunate but as Prin said the breeders who breed these so called Designer breeders are in it for one thing...money. They make claims that these dogs are non-shedding, hypo-allergenic etc... This is so not true. A puppy can take traits from either parent so if you are mixing a poodle with a cocker spaniel you could end up with the fur of the cocker. The only true non-shedding breed is a stuffed animal. I have had standard poodles and when their fur gets long they too shed. Keeping them groomed helps of course.

The other night I went on Petfinders and did a search for Standard poodles. I don't want one but I wanted to see how many goldendoodles or labradoodles were up for adoption. There were pages of them available from young pups to adult ones.

mummummum
March 21st, 2007, 01:02 PM
Wow ~ did that thread ever get oogly. Interesting how the arguments are pretty much the same today, two years later. My:2cents: ?

Adopt an older dog. Adopt an older dog. Adopt an older dog.Adopt an older dog.Adopt an older dog.Adopt an older dog...

glitterless
March 22nd, 2007, 12:40 AM
I don't think that you can really compare medicine to dog breeding. No, I wouldn't refer someone to an UNreputable breeder, but would I send someone to a good unknown breeder? Sure.

I think that too many so-called "backyard breeders" get a bad rap because they aren't hugely successful and well known. Does that mean that they are bad breeders? No. They could be breeding to standard and giving their dogs excellent care.

I don't really know what the point of the thread is. I always roll my eyes when I see a new breed of dog advertised. I definitely think that a lot of breeders are in it for the money and do not care about bettering a breed or creating a breed that has a purpose. But does that mean that all designer breeds are bad and that anyone new to the game is irresponsible? No.

I just wanted to add that I think that we need to educate our fellow pet owners. We should be promoting responsible breeding instead of shunning our peers. Teach them why vaccines are important, teach them what it means to breed to standard, teach them how to properly care for their dogs. Maybe designer breeders DO lead to a lot of unwanted dogs in shelters, but at the same time there are many irresponsible breeders of purebred papered and unpapered dogs who are breeding for the same unethical reasons.

I think that it's fine to breed for money, but make sure that you have a market of responsible pet owners to sell to and that you are breeding ethically.

mummummum
March 22nd, 2007, 01:00 AM
I'm not sure where to begin with your post.

Let's start with "promoting responsible breeding" and educating "fellow pet owners" . With the tens of thousands of dogs on petfinder today and the hundreds of throusands of dogs who are killed world-wide because they are unwanted why would any responsible, thinking individual promote a breeder of designer dogs or papered dogs who is in it "for the money" or a breeder who has no background, no references, no mentor, no titles ?

Why are designer dog back-yard-breeders so loathed here ? Simple, they are selling a product at a very high premium that doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a "best of both breeds" guarantee ~ they are mutts plain and simple. You might get the worst, you might get the best, you might get any combination thereof. And there is nothing remotely possible which could be described as ethical about back-yard-breeders.

MyBirdIsEvil
March 22nd, 2007, 01:11 AM
How do you propose breeding designer dogs to "standard"?
A breed standard can only apply to breeds that HAVE a standard.
New breeds can be created reputably but that only happens when breeders that ALREADY use good ethics get together and establish a standard. IF they're reputable, the dogs they use for the breeding program will have already been CERF and OFA certified, and bloodlines and health problems known very far back. These types of breeders shouldn't HAVE to be educated and already have a strong understanding of genetics. Even then it will take YEARS to get this new breed to breed true. In the meantime you don't see these people selling their puppies as designer dogs with cute names at premium prices.

Establishing a standard for your "breed" and then breeding towards that standard doesn't automatically make you an ethical breeder. Putting two breeds together and then giving it a cute name, even if it fits some kind of "standard" that you made up does NOT make you reputable. Even if all your dogs are vet checked and in good health it does NOT make you reputable. Kudos to anyone that takes good care of their dogs, but this is something that ANYONE should do.
No matter how well your dogs are taken care of, putting two dogs together and then calling it a "breed" and charging outrageous prices does NOT make you ethical, it makes you a scam artist.

glitterless
March 22nd, 2007, 05:09 AM
I wasn't speaking about designer breeds when I talked about breeding to standard. Obviously you have to have a recognized breed to have a standard to breed to. I was trying to point out that not all dogs in shelters are designer breeds -- there are purebreds and there are also mixed breed dogs that were either unintentionally bred or bred without the designer breed idea in mind. Some idiots just breed X to X to get some puppies. But I do think that if you want to help reduce the # of unwanted animals, you have to look at the entire spectrum. Banning the breeding of labradoodles or whatever the breed of the month is won't necessarily cure the problem.

As for backyard brereding, what is it to you? Do you mean that anyone who isn't a top breeder shouldn't be breeding anything? I should be able to go by a bitch and breed her if I want to. To me a backyard breeder is a small scale breeder. A person with a full-time job who has dogs as a hobby and wants to experience the world of breeding. If this person is smart, they have well trained, vaccinated, papered dogs that they show and market. Those are backyard breeders.

Backyard breeders can also be uneducated fools who make up a breed and sell pups for $1,000 +++. Or they can be fools who buy an expensive bitch and dog and breed them indiscriminately without paying any attention to what they will produce. Papers do not necessarily mean a good dog. IMO breeds are ruined by this type of breeding. Lab A and Lab B don't necessarily make a good Lab C.

Sorry if you guys thought that I jumped in here in defense of designer dogs. I didn't. I read a few things and wanted to reply. I think I was getting off topic and speaking more about breeding in general than these designer dogs.

To mumm, I agree that there are lots of unwanted dogs and other animals across the world and that a responsible person wouldn't want to add to that problem. But then I can twist that around and argue that it's wrong to breed any dogs because the dog population is already so high. To me that's not right. People are going to breed dogs, so I think that we need to help out the responsible breeders who want to preserve and strengthen existing breeds. We're not going to find homes for every dog out there, but we're going to lose established breeds if we're against all breeding.

I also want to add something else.

We're blaming the breeders first and foremost, and while I agree with that, I also think that we need to look at how this breeding is even possible. It's the customers! Their market! If people weren't buying these dogs, no one would be breeding them. There have been designer breeds for years. Yes, I agree that in the last couple of years I've seen more and more ads and I think that the media has a lot to do with that. It doesn't help that Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, and other celebrities are seen carrying their little chihuahuas around in purses. They make dog ownership look glamourous. And if chihuahuas aren't appealing, maybe a cockapoo or some other breed is what people want.

It's a losing battle. Some days I think that dog ownership should be regulated, but at the same time I don't agree with any more government regulation. But if every wannabe dog owner had to take a test or be screened before they were allowed to take a dog home, maybe we wouldn't have a flood of mixed breed, unhealthy dogs out there.

I still think that education is the key. I love how PetsMart works with pet rescues to rehome pets. I think that is a great idea. I also think that we need to do something to combat the public's misconception about pets at shelters. So many people assume that these animals are sick, old, or have behavioural issues. Maybe some do fall into these categories, but you can still find a great friend via adoption.

As responsible pet owners I think that it's up to us in a way to encourage responsible pet ownership. It's great that we're on here discussing issues like overpopulation, and it's great that so many people are involved in rehoming cats and dogs. I think that communication is the key.. if we keep this dialogue open and tell our friends, maybe we can cut back on the #s of dogs that are being bought and bred.

MyBirdIsEvil
March 22nd, 2007, 05:45 PM
To me a backyard breeder is a small scale breeder. A person with a full-time job who has dogs as a hobby and wants to experience the world of breeding. If this person is smart, they have well trained, vaccinated, papered dogs that they show and market. Those are backyard breeders.

Having well trained vaccinated papered dogs does not make you a responsible breeder this is only part of it. Showing your dogs does not make you a responsible breeder either.

A responsible breeder has dogs that meet these criteria:
CERF and OFA certified "good" or better. If the parents don't meet these criteria how is the breeder responsible? If the parents don't meet those standards the breeder has NO idea if their dogs hips, heart, eyes, etc. are good enough quality to pass on to their offspring.

Showing/working trials: The dog has proven that it lives up to his breed standard in either conformation or working ability or preferrably both (if applicable) and excels in each. If the dog hasn't done extremely well in either of these, WHAT qualifies it as meeting the breed standard?

And most importantly, the dogs bloodlines should show that the puppies have a high chance of meeting these criteria also.
If I take two dogs, purebred or not, that are physically healthy, excellent behavior, vaccinated, and look good, or have good working ability, and breed them together, there is MUCH less of a chance that I'll get puppies that match these parents than if the parents had good bloodlines in the first place.

A backyard breeder is someone that indescriminately breeds dogs, whether for profit or not, whether purebred or not. Their dogs have not been PROVEN to meet breed standard, they haven't been been proven to be genetically/physically healthy.

No one on here is trying to claim that purebred dogs are better than designer breeds JUST because they're purebred. But a designer breed does NOT meet a breed standard, therefore a breeder of these dogs automatically doesn't meet the above criteria.

I should be able to go by a bitch and breed her if I want to.

Why? And even so, what does that have to do with ethics of breeding designer dogs and backyard breeding in general.

Just about all your other points I completely agree with, but those two I just did NOT get at all.

glitterless
March 22nd, 2007, 11:55 PM
The second point that you disagreed with wasn't something that I would actually do. I have no desire to breed any type of dog. What I was referring to was the fact that unless we have regulations that prohibit indiscriminate breeding, we are not going to solve this problem. And if we had such laws in place, I feel that we would be infringing upon peoples rights. Maybe we shouldn't be breeding whatever dog to whatever dog, but do we really want a government telling us what we can and cannot do with our dogs? I don't. IMO they've already jumped in and gone too far.

As for breeding, I agree with you. I agree that a good dog is proven AND well bred. Not simply shown with good bloodlines. Also, the pairing is important. How many breeders know that dog A and dog B will be a good match? I suppose we're really guessing with a lot of it, but a good breeder knows what traits are desirable and which shouldn't be reproduced. I think that a lot of breeds have already been ruined by breeders focusing on one trait.

I think I got way off topic. Maybe my comments weren't meant for the designer dog thread. I still don't think that there is necessarily anything wrong with crossing 2 breeds. I think that good dogs were created this way and that you can sometimes get the best of 2 dogs by pairing 2 different breeds. But I suppose it's really only a good idea in theory. What I don't like about crossbred animals in our world today is that there's really no need for them. I wouldn't go out and create great lab/shepherd Xs because I can go find 10 of them at my local shelter.

I don't agree with people adding to the problem of animal overpopulation. I wish that everyone shopping for a new dog right now would consider a dog from a shelter and avoid all breeders -- good and bad -- because that could make a huge difference.

CyberKitten
March 23rd, 2007, 12:06 AM
A backyard breeder is in no way a small scale breeder - please!!! I am sorry but you should do some more research. BYB refers to people who breed dogs who are NOT titled champions and do not follow the accepted standards and protocol of care - both parents have been shown and are champions, the breeder has experience and a mentor (even good breeders need mentors), their vet is on speed dial , and for most of them it is a hobby and a costly one. They are in it for the good of the breed and nothing else!!

Back yard breeders, even well meaning ones, have no business breeding any cat or dog or any animal!!! There are too many unwanted animals being killed in shelters across this country! Even people who for some reason or another have a cat that say becomes pregnant and opt to alllow her to have kittens are cutting it close in my opinion as well - especially if they knew she was pregnant very early on!!

Anyone else is a back yard breeder!

glitterless
March 23rd, 2007, 01:50 AM
Guys, please relax. Backyard breeder is a term. It's open to interpretation. Maybe all of you have your pets.ca version of what it means, but different people have different opinions.

I use the term loosely because I realize that different people have different opinions on what it means. By using this term you end up offending a lot of small-scale breeders who are preserving a breed. I agree that certain breeders shouldn't be in business, but I don't think that I'm misusing the term.

CyberKitten, if you had read the rest of my post you would see that I go on to define other aspects of the term.

By using throwing around the term "backyard breeder" you are inadvertently telling people who may be new to the game that anyone who literally breeds dogs in their backyard is a bad breeder. Maybe it's time that we get a little more descriptive with the words that we use. I think I'm the one that brought up backyard breeders. I regret that now.

m_feng
July 26th, 2007, 01:10 PM
This year I got my first leonbergber from a reputable breeder in Vancouver. This kind of dog is expensive and high maintance. For sure the Leo breeders make more money than other breeders but I guess they also invest a lot more than others. Let face it, everyone wants to make some money. In my opinion, having & doing something that you love is not a crime. As long as the designer breeds are done with care, it is O.K. to me. Don't you against people who wear designer clothes? It is the same idea to me. Everyone has different taste and different preference. Just be more positive and enjoy life!

LavenderRott
July 26th, 2007, 05:03 PM
This year I got my first leonbergber from a reputable breeder in Vancouver. This kind of dog is expensive and high maintance. For sure the Leo breeders make more money than other breeders but I guess they also invest a lot more than others. Let face it, everyone wants to make some money. In my opinion, having & doing something that you love is not a crime. As long as the designer breeds are done with care, it is O.K. to me. Don't you against people who wear designer clothes? It is the same idea to me. Everyone has different taste and different preference. Just be more positive and enjoy life!

I have a job outside of my home, so I don't need to use my dog's uterus to make money.

Every single ETHICAL breeder that I know (and I know quite a few) breeds to IMPROVE the breed and couldn't possibly sell the puppies for enough money to make up for the time and money they have spent making sure that the dogs they breed are actually WORTH breeding.

Sorry, but I have yet to meet or hear about someone who breeds a designer breed who can even begin to guess what genetic issues their dogs might be passing from generation to generation.

want4rain
July 26th, 2007, 07:45 PM
let me start off saying (without getting really into it) i have no strong opinion about indiscriminate dog breeding other than its inhumane to crank out puppies(i can only champion so many things and BYBers arent going to be one of them).... but for those of you who are advocates for pure blood lines and so on.... how do you feel about 40yo women having babies? or people with heart disease? other genetic issues? people with thyroid issues having children??

let me also say this is NOT a reflection of my opinions. please dont flame me for assumed opinions when i havent really stated any. its a question. id like to knwo WHY you advocate only championed, genetic historied (and so on) types of dogs beign breed.

-ashley

LavenderRott
July 26th, 2007, 08:00 PM
let me start off saying (without getting really into it) i have no strong opinion about indiscriminate dog breeding other than its inhumane to crank out puppies(i can only champion so many things and BYBers arent going to be one of them).... but for those of you who are advocates for pure blood lines and so on.... how do you feel about 40yo women having babies? or people with heart disease? other genetic issues? people with thyroid issues having children??

let me also say this is NOT a reflection of my opinions. please dont flame me for assumed opinions when i havent really stated any. its a question. id like to knwo WHY you advocate only championed, genetic historied (and so on) types of dogs beign breed.

-ashley

I can tell you why I think it is important that dogs be bred by ethical breeders but I am having a hard time understanding what that has to do with 40 year old women having children or the rest of that.

Frenchy
July 26th, 2007, 09:20 PM
Don't you against people who wear designer clothes? It is the same idea to me.

Dogs are not clothes. They are living / breathing creatures.

want4rain
July 26th, 2007, 09:34 PM
i believe women over the age of 35 the risk for birth defects are higher. i believe autism, low IQ, heart disease, obesity.... several other diseases are also linked to genetics. any of my daughters children could be born with a 3rd thumb(holy cow right?).

what about breeding desirable children?? i have very balanced beautiful intelligent children, does that mean im obligated to ahve more children? what about people who inherit low IQ's? are not athletic? people who have severe heart disease running in their blood... does that mean they SHOULDNT breed? i mean in society we say unethical people shouldnt have children. people who abuse their children or are incapable of taking care of them have their children removed and put into homes where people CAN take care of the children ethically. but with dogs most here say that people breeding dogs should ethically AND SELECTIVELY breed dogs.

i know that people who crank out these puppies for profit in horrible circumstances are terrible human beings but a reasonable human being who cares for his dogs, researches what he is doing and does it for the joy and hobby of it... i dont know. any geneticist worth his pay will tell you that no matter how hard you try, there will always be genetic issues. to say otherwise is foolish. elitism is something to be proud of but to say someone is scum because s/he doeesnt reach for that same level- to me, that is like saying that people who have known genetic issues shouldnt have children because for them to have children isnt in the best interest in the human race.

now im not really saying im right. i just dont understand why everyone here gets so angry when anythign other than elite individuals breed dogs. im not saying im not able to change my view, i would just like to understand somethign besides 'responsible breeders have mentors and do genetic testing" and all others are 'back yard breeders'.

:pray: dont flame me please.

-ashley

Frenchy
July 26th, 2007, 09:46 PM
ashley, if the only ones who would breed dogs would be the responsable breeders , we wouldn't have all these dogs put down everyday at the spcas / humane societies / shleters because of pet overpopulation. There's just too many dogs out there, we don't need people making other breeds on top of that, we don't need a family breeding their female just because they think she is so darn cute , or because they want their kids to witness the miracle of life. They're going to say : oh but my dog had five puppies and I find 5 families to adopt them. Well, there's 5 dogs somewhere that will be put down at a shelter because no one adopted them. There's enough dogs right now looking to be adopted , no need for bringing more into this world.

When I get a phone call on a friday morning while I'm at work , from a shelter who tell me if I can't take this dog into our rescue, he will be put down at 2:00 pm because they just don't have the space for him , it pisses me off. Pisses me off that they're always full, pisses me off that they have to put down all these great dogs , just because they are too many.

LavenderRott
July 26th, 2007, 10:08 PM
First off - let me start by saying that dogs/puppies aren't people/children. To be honest, I am a bit loath to compare the two.

I had my youngest child when I was in my early 30's. For a time, we were concerned that he would be born with Trisome 18 - which is a most horrible condition, generally "not compatible with life" and would have required that, as a parent, I would have to make some very tough, life altering decisions. By the Grace of God, my son was born with 10 lovely fingers and toes and a mind to match.

As an intelligent human being, I have the option of making these decisions. If some horrible genetic issue ran in my family, it would be up to me to weigh my options and decide whether or not I wanted to have children. I also know that, if something life altering ran in my family and I decided to have children, those children would be watched carefully and tested for problems to make sure that they would have the best life possible. Many problems that people have are managable. There are medications that one can take daily for heart conditions, thyroid issues and such.

Dogs don't decide whether or not they want to be parents. It is all hormones. Female dog comes into heat, male dog smells female dog in heat - well, you know the rest. Heck - dogs don't have sex so that they can feel good. They do it because their hormones and their instincts tell them too.

At some point in my adult life, I would like to have a lovely, well bred rottweiler puppy from an ethical breeder. I would expect that said puppy meet the breed standard, will not drop dead of an undetected heart condition at the age of two, will not need reconstructive hip surgery before it is a year old and will have the intelligence and drive to do what the breed was originally bred for - carting and herding. This is accomplished by very careful breeding. If you want to call that elitist - that is entirely up to you. But since I will be spending my hard earned money on what I hope will be a good friend for 10+ years, then I guess it is my job to be as careful as possible to get the best dog that I can. (And doesn't that sound a bit cold.)

I know plenty of people who purchased dogs from less then ethical breeders and I have heard the stories of dogs that dropped dead playing with the kids in the backyard because of a genetic heart condition. I know a woman who has a dog that she loves with all of her heart but the dog has cost her more then her house - pain and suffering that could have been avoided by both dog and owner had some simple tests been done to the parents before they were bred.

I work with the mentally and physically handicapped every day. While I know that most of the kids I work with have parents who love them just as they are - I am fairly certain that not all of them would have opted to have children if they had known, for a fact, what quality of life that child would have.

CyberKitten
July 26th, 2007, 10:11 PM
OMG, I have to jump in if only because as a pediatrician, I get upset when I see the whole breeding of dogs - or cats for that matter - compared with children. That is not at all the same. I am not flaming anyone, just stating a point of view. The way the dog breeding world- the one I see as reputable and that means someone with a proper credentialed dog, and who had worked his or her way up the ladder to understanding what it is all about, breeds ONLY a titled Grand Champion and NO other animal, spends a small fortune (not necessary in the repertoire of characteristics but is the truth of all the breeders I know or have ever met - they don't care about the money, it is a very expensive hobby for them and they are in it for the love of the animals.) are a completely different world than then eugenics and having the perfect human baby.

While I do thin there are innocent people who for whatever unfortunate reason opt to breed their pet (usually lack of knowledge) I really can see no such entity as a "good" backyard breeder. It's akin to suggesting a backyard physician - one not Board certified or a psychologist whop practices without the proper credentials. Would you seriously see someone like that?

Perhaps because I have served on so many boards and committees re disabilities in children and others, and spent a zillion hrs on ethical committees making decisions on what policies to adopt for a medial centre, I know we do not allow families to decided what kind of children they can have. The two issues- are oranges and apples!! Yes, there are now some scientific ways of determining what one's child will be in terms of gender and whether they may have certain illnesses and we can actually operate on fetuses (thankfully) to cure or help a situation. But that gives no one the right to play God or make unethical decisions regarding a human being.

And as for
By using throwing around the term "backyard breeder" you are inadvertently telling people who may be new to the game that anyone who literally breeds dogs in their backyard is a bad breeder. Maybe it's time that we get a little more descriptive with the words that we use. I think I'm the one that brought up backyard breeders. I regret that now.

I do think that anyone who inadvertently breeds is a bad breeder! How can they not be? I am not saying they are bad people - they may be well meaning, just lack knowledge and the entire scope of the problem. Some even mean well. But that hardly gives them the right to add to the growing crisis iof pet overpopulation. I would think the good ones would want t know how they can help instead of breeding! Or if they are serious about breeding, they will learn about how to do it in the proper manner and while I am not wild about more animals being bred when so many die needless and cruel deaths every minute of every day, at least if they obtain a mentor, have a certified pet from a Champion and understand what the standard is, they won't be creating problems.

That's all for me!

dtbmnec
July 26th, 2007, 10:20 PM
Meh if I want a labradoodle I know exactly what I'm going to do :)

Yep...

Gonna find me a Lab and take a curling iron to it. Possibly set up something about a perm...yep.

Lab + Perm = Labradoodle all the way!

:laughing:

I'm sorry I'll go meander back to my corner now....please don't kill me....

Megan

P.S. No dogs of any sort were hurt in the process of typing this remark

Frenchy
July 26th, 2007, 10:26 PM
Lab + Perm = Labradoodle all the way!

:laughing:

I'm sorry I'll go meander back to my corner now....please don't kill me....

Megan

:laughing: that's ok , I know I'm not mad , I just get passionate about this breeding thing. :shrug:

CyberKitten
July 26th, 2007, 11:08 PM
As long as you note that no dogs were hurt in the posting of that joke! :crazy:

want4rain
July 26th, 2007, 11:10 PM
i guess the reason im asking is because my grandfather breeds family dobermans. he breeds his female once in her life time. he keeps the largest, healthiest female and the his children (my aunts and uncles) get the rest of the off spring. he is on his 5th generation?? this genetic line has been in our family for (human) 2 generations. his first bitch was from his father. my aunt bred one of her females once for HER children but otherwise the offspring from Jillian (the name of all of grandpas bitches) are fixed.

aside from that, by domesticating the wolf to a dog we took away the natural selection of mother nature. to me that is why a sickened or diseased dog should NOT breed and maybe even just the elite should breed dogs. while we are poor substitutes for mother nature, we make do with the best we can.

i also strongly feel that if folks want their children to witness the miracle of life... go get a rooster, a few chickens and a coop. it will cost you far far less in the end AND you get a few chickens to eat.

id also like to say in reading through this thread i kinda forgot it was about designer dogs which really irritate me. if you want a mutt, go adopt a mutt. breeding a dog for money... thats like having kids so you have someone to take care of you when you get old.

so i went to scroll down to see again what LavenderRott (i absolutely *love* the handle, it makes me think of all thats beautiful abotu rotts!!!) and say like 10 other responses!!

i will see if i cant get my sister to photoshop a Labradoodle for ya. i sure Mister would just *love* the make over. *snickers*

one more thing- i had to google eugenics. we have several mental handicaps along with (it seems) SIDS and heart disease (who doesnt right?) that runs in MY side of the family... so i didnt mean to offend with comparing the two (children and puppies). i just want to understand where the line is drawn HERE, if anywhere. some people here treat their dogs better than i treat my children, and im far from a bad mom!! Chris and i had a discussion before we ever got pregnant about those hard decisions and we both came to the conclusion that we would intelligently deal with that when it came up but we made sure we knew that the possibilities were.

anyways, its 11pm here and i baked cookies today. im bushed. im going to go eat a cookie and go to bed (thats after i go upstairs and laugh at the position my son is sleeping in and then go in the kitchen to see what position Mister is sleeping in and laugh a bit).

-ashley

want4rain
July 26th, 2007, 11:16 PM
:laughing: that's ok , I know I'm not mad , I just get passionate about this breeding thing. :shrug:

i also like to say im not trying to say that championing BYB's and such is not worth every single ounce of effort that anyone and everyone puts forth educating the 'elitist' way of doing things. the summit is nothing to be ashamed of. its a sad thing that 'elitist' has such a bad connotation these days. striving to be the best at what you do is a wonderful thing.

-ashley

m_feng
July 27th, 2007, 04:14 PM
Dogs are not clothes. They are living / breathing creatures.

Right,dogs are not clothes. I mean having a designer breed dog is just a personal choice which is the same as you choose to wear designer clothes than having something from Walmart,etc.. Easy! I love my dog as my own child. There are some positive aspect of making designer breed. This is how we improve our standard of living base on new research of all kinds. In short, I like people to see things in different angle. Believe me, you will feel happier if you turn on your critical thinking side of your head. Sorry if I offend anyone for making this statement.

dtbmnec
July 27th, 2007, 04:21 PM
:laughing: that's ok , I know I'm not mad , I just get passionate about this breeding thing. :shrug:

LOL

I can totally understand that :)

As long as you note that no dogs were hurt in the posting of that joke! :crazy:

Ooops gonna go back and edit then ;)

i also like to say im not trying to say that championing BYB's and such is not worth every single ounce of effort that anyone and everyone puts forth educating the 'elitist' way of doing things. the summit is nothing to be ashamed of. its a sad thing that 'elitist' has such a bad connotation these days. striving to be the best at what you do is a wonderful thing.

-ashley

I think the point being that it should be left up to the experts. To people who DO know the business and don't let Fluffy mate every other day for the next six years.

It'd be like just about anything else. If I need to go in for open heart surgery I'd like to know that the guy opening me up has a degree and has done it before with SUCCESS. *has visions of some creepy crazy almost doctor like figure standing over her with a scalpel and tossing things out of her body saying things like "oh well we don't NEED that!" and "well this can go too!"* Gah.

You see what I'm saying?

Would you rather have Dr. Frankenstein or even a five year old kid with a scalpel or an actual open heart surgeon do the surgery?

Megan

m_feng
July 27th, 2007, 04:37 PM
I am also a mom & love your insight on this topic. My kid has a much higher position than my dog. Every parent want to have a perfectly health baby and every dog owner would love to have a puppy with no genetic problem. In fact, there is no 100% guarantee for the outcome. In short, I think people have the right to choose what they want but they have to carry on the responsiblity until the last minute. Don't just get a puppy by impluse whether it is a designer breed or anything else. I guess people just confuse about the topic. Many unwanted dogs & cats in the shelter are usually not designer breed! Someone has to define the term "designer breed". Perhaps, dogs & cats from pet store or puppy mills are just designer breed look alike.



UOTE=LavenderRott;456523]First off - let me start by saying that dogs/puppies aren't people/children. To be honest, I am a bit loath to compare the two.

I had my youngest child when I was in my early 30's. For a time, we were concerned that he would be born with Trisome 18 - which is a most horrible condition, generally "not compatible with life" and would have required that, as a parent, I would have to make some very tough, life altering decisions. By the Grace of God, my son was born with 10 lovely fingers and toes and a mind to match.

As an intelligent human being, I have the option of making these decisions. If some horrible genetic issue ran in my family, it would be up to me to weigh my options and decide whether or not I wanted to have children. I also know that, if something life altering ran in my family and I decided to have children, those children would be watched carefully and tested for problems to make sure that they would have the best life possible. Many problems that people have are managable. There are medications that one can take daily for heart conditions, thyroid issues and such.

Dogs don't decide whether or not they want to be parents. It is all hormones. Female dog comes into heat, male dog smells female dog in heat - well, you know the rest. Heck - dogs don't have sex so that they can feel good. They do it because their hormones and their instincts tell them too.

At some point in my adult life, I would like to have a lovely, well bred rottweiler puppy from an ethical breeder. I would expect that said puppy meet the breed standard, will not drop dead of an undetected heart condition at the age of two, will not need reconstructive hip surgery before it is a year old and will have the intelligence and drive to do what the breed was originally bred for - carting and herding. This is accomplished by very careful breeding. If you want to call that elitist - that is entirely up to you. But since I will be spending my hard earned money on what I hope will be a good friend for 10+ years, then I guess it is my job to be as careful as possible to get the best dog that I can. (And doesn't that sound a bit cold.)

I know plenty of people who purchased dogs from less then ethical breeders and I have heard the stories of dogs that dropped dead playing with the kids in the backyard because of a genetic heart condition. I know a woman who has a dog that she loves with all of her heart but the dog has cost her more then her house - pain and suffering that could have been avoided by both dog and owner had some simple tests been done to the parents before they were bred.

I work with the mentally and physically handicapped every day. While I know that most of the kids I work with have parents who love them just as they are - I am fairly certain that not all of them would have opted to have children if they had known, for a fact, what quality of life that child would have.[/QUOTE]

LavenderRott
July 27th, 2007, 04:41 PM
Right,dogs are not clothes. I mean having a designer breed dog is just a personal choice which is the same as you choose to wear designer clothes than having something from Walmart,etc.. Easy! I love my dog as my own child. There are some positive aspect of making designer breed. This is how we improve our standard of living base on new research of all kinds. In short, I like people to see things in different angle. Believe me, you will feel happier if you turn on your critical thinking side of your head. Sorry if I offend anyone for making this statement.

I think you need to do a little bit more research into your designer breeds. No animals were killed or tortured so that I could wear some fancy shirt.

While the occasional labradoodle comes from someone's backyard (which I DO NOT defend in any way, shape, or form) a vast majority of them come from your ever popular puppy mill. Now - when you can honestly sit there and defend breeding sick, crippled dogs who never see the light of day (and if they do, it is because they are caged outside with little to no protection from the elements) or walk on grass - then we can have a serious conversation about your point of view. But I doubt I will ever think that it is ok to breed dogs so that you (or Britney or Paris) can make a fashion statement.

LavenderRott
July 27th, 2007, 04:45 PM
Many unwanted dogs & cats in the shelter are usually not designer breed! Someone has to define the term "designer breed". Perhaps, dogs & cats from pet store or puppy mills are just designer breed look alike.


You might want to check out one of the miller registries. They most certainly can and will give your mutt puppies a fancy sounding "designer" name so that you can make big money off of your now registered puppies.

After reading the above statement a second time - I have to wonder just what you think a "designer breed" is?

want4rain
July 27th, 2007, 04:58 PM
I think the point being that it should be left up to the experts. To people who DO know the business and don't let Fluffy mate every other day for the next six years.

It'd be like just about anything else. If I need to go in for open heart surgery I'd like to know that the guy opening me up has a degree and has done it before with SUCCESS. *has visions of some creepy crazy almost doctor like figure standing over her with a scalpel and tossing things out of her body saying things like "oh well we don't NEED that!" and "well this can go too!"* Gah.

You see what I'm saying?

Would you rather have Dr. Frankenstein or even a five year old kid with a scalpel or an actual open heart surgeon do the surgery?

Megan

not really. if everyone lined up for the single best or even the 5 best heart surgeons in the world then there would be a fair group of people who would never see the cure.

i dont know, i guess im taking this personally because we are not the elite yet my family breeds our family dogs and every time i see someone calling all non elite breeders a BYB (insert image of scoundrel with a greasy beard, beady eyes and hundreds of puppies in 2'X2' cages) i feel guilty of somethign i use to feel proud of. it feels liek there is a very very black and white view on breeding dogs. these people who make up breeds for profit, crank out puppies until the mother is falling apart.... they are evil without question but i dont feel my family is.

-ashley

m_feng
July 27th, 2007, 05:00 PM
Please define designer breed. Frankly, I have not done any research on designer breed. I just got a Leonberger this year, I guess it is consider as a designer breed. I got her from a reputable breeder. In fact, I do not consider anything from the puppy mills or pet stores as designer breed. These pets are just designer breed look alike. I think you need to do some research on designer breed too. I compare designer breed to designer clothes just because they are what I love to have. Perhaps, there is a little bit of trying to make a statement. What's wrong with it. I don't feel guilty about doing this. I guess every once in a while, people would love to make some personal statement. Just like you mention about you work with the disable people and seems to know a lot in breeding. In fact, breeding of designer dogs or cats is a completely different issue. What you had mention in your paragaph is a bit off topic. Sorry if I offend anyone for saying this. I just like to express myself.




I think you need to do a little bit more research into your designer breeds. No animals were killed or tortured so that I could wear some fancy shirt.

While the occasional labradoodle comes from someone's backyard (which I DO NOT defend in any way, shape, or form) a vast majority of them come from your ever popular puppy mill. Now - when you can honestly sit there and defend breeding sick, crippled dogs who never see the light of day (and if they do, it is because they are caged outside with little to no protection from the elements) or walk on grass - then we can have a serious conversation about your point of view. But I doubt I will ever think that it is ok to breed dogs so that you (or Britney or Paris) can make a fashion statement.

dtbmnec
July 27th, 2007, 05:26 PM
not really. if everyone lined up for the single best or even the 5 best heart surgeons in the world then there would be a fair group of people who would never see the cure.

i dont know, i guess im taking this personally because we are not the elite yet my family breeds our family dogs and every time i see someone calling all non elite breeders a BYB (insert image of scoundrel with a greasy beard, beady eyes and hundreds of puppies in 2'X2' cages) i feel guilty of somethign i use to feel proud of. it feels liek there is a very very black and white view on breeding dogs. these people who make up breeds for profit, crank out puppies until the mother is falling apart.... they are evil without question but i dont feel my family is.

-ashley

You're right not everyone would get the best care and that's fine. But are you going to let a five year old do the surgery? Probably not. Are you going to let someone who's watched/helped out/done bits of previous surgeries? Probably. I mean we all have to start somewhere right?

But you don't know the history of the dogs. I understand that you aren't cranking out Fluffy's every two days and all but at the same time you don't know what kind of genes are being passed on to the puppies. I mean perhaps the line of dogs that you are currently breeding happen to have some recessive gene that, oh I dunno, makes their teeth turn purple (yeah so I'm making it up, sue me :p). So you breed and breed and breed and all of a sudden you end up with Fluffy the 457th who has purple teeth! Now imagine that purple teeth is instead a horrible genetic disease of some sort. Not only does Fluffy the 457th have it, but all the dogs BEFORE Fluffy also have the chance of passing it on.

It would be my understanding that if you (not trying to single your family out at this point) really did want to breed dogs for a living you would learn from one of the "elite." I can't see them being overtly protective about "well known" tricks of the trade and they aren't going to live forever. That you would care, not only about the dog's/puppies' welfare, but the genetics and potential for passing something on to other dogs. Maybe even something that is now "close to extinction" due to careful breeding (no more dogs with purple teeth).

Unfortunately, many people only see the one type of breeder. The back yard breeders who do have Fluffy's every two days. The type who keep their animals in small cages and just don't give a rat's *** about the dogs. Many people on this board are from rescues or work closely with them. They tend to be the ones who see the bulk of BYB and the "refuse" that come from them.

For me, dogs go woof (oh all right they got tongues too bah!). I don't do breeding. Its not really my thing and I haven't read through the entire thread either (btw what the heck is a Morkie? Mork and Mindy's child? yeesh). I'm just trying to use common sense along with what I do know/have heard.

Megan

P.S. m_feng: psst...designer breed...lab with a perm...that's all I have to say! :p (ok if you're looking a serious answer you won't find it with me...sorry :p)

want4rain
July 27th, 2007, 06:18 PM
i think with my family its a case of 'take the good with the bad'. we dont sell her pups, we keep them in our family, we have a home for all of them and if we dont, gramps keeps them. they are all stupidly pampered... you can tell that gramps and my aunts and uncles dont have kids in the house anymore. *chuckles* so far there has been considerable interest in my generation on who will get Jillian #6 (or which ever # he is on now) and perhaps generic testing will come into play then. i DID bring it up with gramps a few months ago, he said to me "dogs got along just fine before genetic testing, they will get along just fine without it now." *sigh* he also doesnt believe that a fish tank needs fresh water once every 2 to 3 weeks.

(btw what the heck is a Morkie? Mork and Mindy's child? yeesh)

i almost snorted coke all over my laptop. it hurt!

-ashley

Jim Hall
July 27th, 2007, 06:36 PM
Sorry a little off topic why would you want to breed a standard poodle with any thing? If you have allergies, the poodle is fine and if you want a high energy retrieving type dog, poodles are fine and they can be trianed to be just about anything. they have been used as sheep dogs guard dogs
retrieviers i have even been told they have been used as pointers
and the pic of the labrapoodle is in my opoinion butt ugly

My friend had a standard and i swear it was the smartest dog i have ever known I have known people who were dumber. than franco

Frenchy
July 27th, 2007, 07:16 PM
Please define designer breed.

2 breeds mix together = MUTT !!! Because that's what people who breed 2 dogs from different breeds gets. They only call it designer breed so people like you spend $$$$$ for a mutt :D So you're telling me there's not mutts in shelters ? I think you need a reality check.

LavenderRott
July 27th, 2007, 07:19 PM
Please define designer breed. Frankly, I have not done any research on designer breed. I just got a Leonberger this year, I guess it is consider as a designer breed. I got her from a reputable breeder. In fact, I do not consider anything from the puppy mills or pet stores as designer breed. These pets are just designer breed look alike. I think you need to do some research on designer breed too. I compare designer breed to designer clothes just because they are what I love to have. Perhaps, there is a little bit of trying to make a statement. What's wrong with it. I don't feel guilty about doing this. I guess every once in a while, people would love to make some personal statement. Just like you mention about you work with the disable people and seems to know a lot in breeding. In fact, breeding of designer dogs or cats is a completely different issue. What you had mention in your paragaph is a bit off topic. Sorry if I offend anyone for saying this. I just like to express myself.


I think you need to do a bit more research about YOUR breed!!

Leonbergers are so very far from a designer breed. The breed originated well over 100 years ago in Germany to guard and herd flocks of sheep. You can find out more information about them here: http://www.leonbergerclubofamerica.com/

There is no such thing as a designer breed look alike. All of your little - oodle mixes are designer breeds and, unlike the Leonberger, they are bred strictly to make big money.

want4rain
July 27th, 2007, 07:53 PM
here is what Wiki says abotu it-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designer_dog

(anyone see the Cockachon?! it was tea coming out my nose this time!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_breed

and last but not least-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppy_mill

-ashley

want4rain
July 27th, 2007, 07:57 PM
I think you need to do a bit more research about YOUR breed!!

Leonbergers are so very far from a designer breed. The breed originated well over 100 years ago in Germany to guard and herd flocks of sheep. You can find out more information about them here: http://www.leonbergerclubofamerica.com/

There is no such thing as a designer breed look alike. All of your little - oodle mixes are designer breeds and, unlike the Leonberger, they are bred strictly to make big money.

they are considered a "rare breed"

http://rarebreed.com/breedlist.html

which are a group of dog breeds that are not considered purebred for whatever reason.

another Wiki-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Rare_Breed_Association


-ashley

want4rain
July 27th, 2007, 08:00 PM
poo, i couldnt make all of this one post??

it appears that goldendoodles?? or was it labrdoodles? were bred to be seeing eye dogs for blind people with allergies. noble aspiration in my opinion. for whatever reason there are now hundreds of -oodles and -poos that serve no aparent purpose other than for people to make money.

-ashley

LavenderRott
July 27th, 2007, 08:06 PM
they are considered a "rare breed"

http://rarebreed.com/breedlist.html

which are a group of dog breeds that are not considered purebred for whatever reason.

another Wiki-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Rare_Breed_Association


-ashley

No - Rare breeds are not a group of dogs that are not considered purebred.

Rare breeds are just that. Rare. With a very limited gene pool.

Leonbergers are eligible to be registered as a rare breed with AKC and can be shown in the Rare Breed group. Usually, this means that the breed IS an established breed but that it doesn't have the stud book to be included in "regular" groups. With time, I am sure that the Leonberger will find it's way into the Working Group with AKC. :D

want4rain
July 27th, 2007, 08:18 PM
i see i see!! i wasnt entirely sure but my impression was that rare breeds and aspiring purebreds were kind of lumped together.

i think i did pretty good for cramming between making pizza and calming a pooch afraid of the thunder and a fussy teething baby and a questioning 8yo. :laughing: im still learning!

-ashley

Jim Hall
July 27th, 2007, 08:24 PM
ok but they are still ugly i mean a labs and poodles are wonderfully magnifcent breeds. a poodle is a retriever correct? what group does a Std bred poodle go into in show comp?

LavenderRott
July 27th, 2007, 08:28 PM
i see i see!! i wasnt entirely sure but my impression was that rare breeds and aspiring purebreds were kind of lumped together.

i think i did pretty good for cramming between making pizza and calming a pooch afraid of the thunder and a fussy teething baby and a questioning 8yo. :laughing: im still learning!

-ashley

So long as you are willing to learn - you are doing a GREAT job!!

LavenderRott
July 27th, 2007, 08:30 PM
ok but they are still ugly i mean a labs and poodles are wonderfully magnifcent breeds. a poodle is a retriever correct? what group does a Std bred poodle go into in show comp?

Standard Poodles and Miniature poodles are shown in the Non-Sporting group. I believe that the toy poodles are shown in the .......Toy Group. :D

BTW - the reason for the ridiculous haircuts that they sport in the showring - cuts used to protect the joints and internal organs when retrieving in cold water.

dtbmnec
July 27th, 2007, 11:29 PM
i almost snorted coke all over my laptop. it hurt!

-ashley

I'm sorry...it was just the first thing that popped into my head....:laughing:

Now that I've looked it up its ok. I knew that I had heard it before but couldn't remember what the M in morkie stood for...

Though the goldendoodle/labradoodle for the blind is rather interesting. Neat idea :).

Megan

LavenderRott
July 27th, 2007, 11:37 PM
Though the goldendoodle/labradoodle for the blind is rather interesting. Neat idea :).

Megan

The problem is that they don't breed true. Even within a litter, you can't guarantee that all of the pups will have what you are looking for as far as coat and temperment and it gets even worse when you breed labradoodle to labradoodle.

dtbmnec
July 27th, 2007, 11:38 PM
The problem is that they don't breed true. Even within a litter, you can't guarantee that all of the pups will have what you are looking for as far as coat and temperment and it gets even worse when you breed labradoodle to labradoodle.

Ah common...where's people's sense of adventure? Bah! (joking!!!!)

That does rather suck :( its too bad....

Megan

m_feng
July 28th, 2007, 09:49 AM
Hi all,

I learn a lot from this site. In fact, I don't really care about designer breed that much. We love the 3-in-1 componet of our Leo. and had done some research on this breed. Anyway, I just don't like people to have pets on impulse. You have to make a commitment with your pets. Don't support the so called "designer breed" from pet stores & puppy mills. I have an agony to adopt a 4 yrs. old dog without knowing it had a severe kidney problem. It was put down for good. This dog was originally from pet store. This is my first time to put down my own pet and I only got this dog for 6 months. All my pets died at home because of old age and were still smiling in their last breath!




QUOTE=LavenderRott;456824]So long as you are willing to learn - you are doing a GREAT job!![/QUOTE]

glitterless
July 31st, 2007, 02:51 AM
And as for

I do think that anyone who inadvertently breeds is a bad breeder! How can they not be? I am not saying they are bad people - they may be well meaning, just lack knowledge and the entire scope of the problem. Some even mean well. But that hardly gives them the right to add to the growing crisis iof pet overpopulation. I would think the good ones would want t know how they can help instead of breeding! Or if they are serious about breeding, they will learn about how to do it in the proper manner and while I am not wild about more animals being bred when so many die needless and cruel deaths every minute of every day, at least if they obtain a mentor, have a certified pet from a Champion and understand what the standard is, they won't be creating problems.

That's all for me!

LOL! Please read it again! I didn't say people who "inadvertently breed" although I did use all of the above words!

I hate the term "backyard breeder" because everyone gets upset and worries that they are being offended. I know now that to us on here, a backyard breeder is one who breeds indiscriminatly (without regard to standards, health, etc. of dog), however, there are many small breeders out there who literally breed dogs in their backyards and who we are technically lumping into this category. I feel that that's totally unfair and that we may be turning some new people off such breeders.

In my opinion, only the top animals of every breed and type should reproduce. I am *this* close to being all for a nationwide licensing system for dog/cat/horse/etc. breeders because of the poor animals that I've seen and heard of. It makes me sick just thinking of them.

bosluv001
March 21st, 2009, 08:58 PM
was this my thread you were talking about a long time ago?