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BYB opinions

whinnie-boo
December 23rd, 2004, 04:56 PM
Not near as proud as me......

I know they are BYB PITS but, they are cute none the less, and I would not have traded any of them. Especially my Boo-Boo. :crazy:

whinnie-boo
January 5th, 2005, 02:08 PM
THANK-YOU

I love to show off my BYB pups, don't you know??? They are the most beautiful things...as is OUR ANGEL :p . I'll share with you until I get my own :thumbs up

Schwinn
January 5th, 2005, 03:23 PM
THANK-YOU

I love to show off my BYB pups, don't you know??? They are the most beautiful things...

They are very cute. Are they pure pitties? Just curious the story behind the BYB (just courious, so feel free to tell me to MYOB!)

whinnie-boo
January 5th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Easier said then done Schwinn. When I got Whinnie she was Pregnant & underweight. Until she went into labour I just thought she was getting fatter, and I was a great Mom. Needless to say she had pups, and I just have to joke, becuase I was in the Argentino Dogo thread, and I'm getting really fed up with the BYB garbage that everyone throws around when someone asks a question.
"DON"T BUY FROM THIS PERSON..... DON"T BUY FROM THAT PERSON" Everyone cares about making a point and not helping the animals. When I joined up again this year, I thought that for reasons I'd rather not get into that my Boo was pregnant, and I did not know who sired the Pups as I work all day to support my Dogs, I live in an apartment, and at the time an abortion was just not an option for me. So, I immediatley started to look for homes to place whatever these pups may have been. The moment I made a post about Boo being pregnant, everyone jumped down my throat, without using names, they did it to another member on this board the other day, who I consider one of the best members on this board. Boo isn't pregnant, Thank God. It just seems like we all let our opinions get out of hand, and we're doing nothing to help, just scaring people away with our attitudes and opinions. They all told me what an irresponsible, backyard breeding, inexperienced Pitbull owner I am, I don't deserve my dogs, and one thing led to another and I was denied adoption because of this reputation of being a BYB that I got because I had a possibly pregnant Pitbull posting on PETS.CA that I wanted to place these pups, not abort. Not everyone in this world is made of money, but that doesn't mean I don't love or care for my Girls to the best of my ability.
But, go back over all my posts and you'll see what I mean.

Schwinn
January 5th, 2005, 05:04 PM
Thanks, Whinnie. Like I said, I was just curious, because I know what a bad word BYB is here, and I was surprised to see someone refer to themselves that way. Like I said, just being nosy, and I REALLY hope I didn't re-open any wounds and start something (Sorry if I did!).

At any rate, I'd have a hard time aborting them as well.

DogueLover
January 5th, 2005, 08:35 PM
I think you have said what any of us on this board are maybe too afraid to voice. I give you so much credit for posting about how everyone jumps all over you when you mention getting a dog from a breeder, having a possible pregnant dog, and the other numerous things you can get jumped on by people on this board who I know only mean the best.

Unfortunately, there are others like you out there that would choose to have a dog that was pregnant have the pups instead of aborting them or having the dog go through surgery. Like ME.
If, for any reason, Angel got loose and had been bred and were to be pregnant with puppies from an unwanted litter I would do what was recommended by my vet, let her have the pups and put them to sleep when they are born. He told me that there are far more risks in giving them the pill that makes them abort them, and that there is a very specific time frame in which you can use it, and that he would NOT take them by spaying her......... the risks and complications with her breed and the anesthetic are far too great.

She isn`t pregnant, and she doesn`t get loose to roam on a regular basis, but anything can happen, even with your dog confined to your yard,,,,,, we have had other dogs in our yard, and I am not sure how they got in......... but had we been faced with the choices I know what mine would have been.

I think that you really hit the nail on the head when you posted about how whenever someone comes to the board asking for information there is just too much negative feedback given to them. Why not just answer the question they asked in a more positive fashion. Instead of jumping all over them about how they should be at a shelter taking in a dog from there, or giving them the opinion about how the breeder must be a BYB because they don`t have a waiting list, need I go on........... why not just tell them that you can`t help them....... and wish them luck on their search.
When I was looking for my Bordeaux, had I found a site that was so negative about finding a breeder of these dogs, I probably would have left and never wanted to return to a pet website offering "helpful advice" again.

Thanks again Whinnie! You inspire me to be a better person everyday :thumbs up

Catt31
January 6th, 2005, 08:51 AM
This has been an ongoing "issue" since probably before I started 2 years ago!!!! When people are passionate, they get their defenses up, and then the fur flies!! Many many people have left the board because of it - either tired of hearing it over and over again, or for being the brunt of an attack. And I say "attack" because it has gotten very nasty at times. That is part of the reason I usually keep quiet, and haven't been around too much!!! It gets tiresome!! :(

W-Boo, I'm glad you stuck it out with us!! Your babies are GORGEOUS!!!! I would never hesitate to have a pit bull in my home!!! And honestly, if I were in your situation, I would have done the EXACT same thing!!! You had no control over the pregnancy, but you did what was best for the babies!! Good on ya girl!!!! :thumbs up

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 10:07 AM
Schwinn & Dougelover,

THANKS... I just thought it would be good to voice my opinion like everyone else does. Too often I see new members join and for some reason they don't last long. All I'm saying is there has to be a better way to adress some issues, and we all really need to understand that other people are not as knowledgeable as some on this board. People come looking for help, asking questions, and if its not something certian people approve of, the whole thread is simply negativity directed at whomever is asking the question. Because the first negative post starts and tons follow, and no one else wants to offer their advice or opinion to avoid getting in the middle.

Schwinn, I refer to myself as a BYB, because that is the reputation I've been given, from a few posts I write everyday. And from those few posts a few weeks ago, this rep. is still coming to bite me in the a**, on almost every post. I'm not ashamed of the fact that Whinnie herself came from some young punk who had no idea what he was doing. Or that My Boo came from Whinnie's litter. No one can change my opinion that they are the greatest dogs in the entire world, and I would not trade them for anything. Especially some "titled" dog that is used solely for reproducing. Because I allowed my Pit to have puppies, does not make me any less of a Mother to them both, or mean I don't love them too pieces. I would give anything for them both and they know that, just as I know they would for me. Anyone who knows me, or has met my girls knows what a wonderful Mom I am, and that I live for those 2 dogs and my 2 new cats. I'm not about to let the opinions of some, scare me away from what I love doing, helping animals. I thought that was what we were all her to do.

Dougelover, Special thanks to you for your comments, I have to get to SK, gonna look into it for summer Vacation. Its scary that somewhere in this world, there IS someone, just like me :p Then I'll finally get to meet MY precious :angel: This all started to really upset me when people started getting RUDE with you asking about ANGEL. Why they went off the way they did, I'll never know. What reason they have to believe that you are irresponsible, or you don't know what your doing, I have no idea. But they go off on how you should spay her, and no one will take pups and they'll end up in the pound....bla,bla,bla. When you clearly stated it was not your intention to breed her. I'll tell you something, I took 17 weeks to place Whinnies last pup, and we kept Boo in particular, because we thought she was a little slow, and we feared what would happen to her if we adopted her out. She's not a great learner. But, to this day I know where everyone of those pups is, and I see them as often as possible. I made people sign contracts stating they would not crop the tail or ears & have them medically tested before breeding. Also, if for some reason down the road they could not kep my Pup, they are to be returned to me, because God help the person who puts one of my kids in the pound. So, let people speculate as to what kind of owners we are, let them keep driving people away with negativity, and then sit and wonder where all the help is. Why people don't want to adopt from shelters or rescues, its damn near impossible, it seems easier to buy a home then rescue an animal. Most people turn to puppies, because the rescues go overboard with reasons you shouldn't have an animal, why you're not the ideal home... Who has the ideal home? There is just so much contradiction here, its unreal @ times. Needless to say, I still come because I have made some great friends here, Whin & Boo have found a ton of new Playmates, and I know what my intentions are, even if no one agree's with me. With the exception of 2 people on this board, no one personally knows me, its all just assumptions, based on a few lines we type everyday. Not to mention how often people rag on someone with out all the details, or the wrong details. Quick to judge, but not quick to ask more questions, and certainly not too quick to apologize when we're wrong.

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 11:23 AM
Thanks Catt31. It is so true about members leaving, and its a shame. Think of how many more animals we could help if we weren't letting our attitudes get in the way.

mastifflover
January 6th, 2005, 11:24 AM
Winnie I experienced the some of the same attitude when I joined here and some of the people were down right nasty. I decided that I would say what I thought about the attitude of people towards newbies and especially inexperienced dog and cat owners maybe they did not phrase the question properly but they are here because they need help or answers and do not need to be attacked for no reason. It did not go over very well either but there were a few who pm'd me and also felt the same way so do not be discouraged and just say what you believe and that cant be wrong and if someone doesn't like it ces't la vie. I would not ever consider you a byb you care about your dogs in fact you care about all animals passionately. You did what you felt was right and took the time to find the proper homes for your pups. Most byb's don't go to these lengths for the dogs they breed they just find homes that can afford the puppy you obviously spent the time to find the right owners and it was not about money that is the biggest difference and you would have kept the last pup if you never found the right owner that is the kind of person that you seem to be. So if I wrote anything that offended you I apologize because I really do think it is all about the animals finding forever homes and loving homes and I think we both agree on that. I think you are to be commended for putting yourself out there and going the extra mile and I admire that in you. Glad you are sticking it out just let the comment roll of your back don't let them get to you

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 11:37 AM
Thank you Mastifflover, That is why I'm here, to help. I just wish everyones motives were the same. Just the other day I had it thrown in my face again by a member who had been away for a while...QUOTE "My first impression seems to be correct". Then things just get opened up again, and blown out of proportion. I was denied an adoption due to the fact that I have a Pitbull Puppy who had never seen a cat, and I was a BYB, so why would I want a cat. It hurts to think that these cats were denied a home based on a few lines I type everyday, without so much as a phonecall to get to the bottom of things.
The world is a horrible place, and there is nothing we can do about it. BYB will continue, as will animals being thrown out on the street, or into pounds & shelters, PureBreed "TITLED" dogs, mutts, and BYB animals. If we keep scaring people away, there will be no one here to help them, and thats why were here. To speak for those who can not speak for themselves.
If an animal is BYB, does that mean it doesn't deserve a loving home? SO, what would our members rather see? BYB litters in loving homes or Innocent puppies put to death because of the stupidity of a Human, or sheer accident. Accidents happen, I'd like to meet someone here, who has never, ever made a mistake, cause I highly doubt there is one.
Needless to say, Thank you for your kind words, They are very much appreciated for a change!! Have a great day! ;)

sammiec
January 6th, 2005, 11:58 AM
SOME GRAPHIC IMAGES

Lemme tell you why I am against BYB. Granted I don't know everything, never said I did...but this I do know.

I may come on strong sometimes, but that's me - like it or leave it. This is something that I am passionate about, as are others on this site. Many people that post here work with animals on a daily basis, they see the hurt, the heartache and worst of all - THEY are the people that are there for the animals as they lay dying on the table! I know there are people here that are great pet owners, I don't doubt that. I do however think that there are people here that are oblivious/ unknowing/ ignorant/ unknowledgable about the pain and suffering of these animals. It's hard to remain calm (I really do try) when I see posts that say "it's really not that bad". "So what if she had just one litter."

This is why:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/samanthajc/multineuter.gif

There are plenty of animals miserable, lonely, scared, sad/ heart broken, some sitting in cramped and dirty conditions in shelters because their owners did not do the responsible thing like getting their animals spayed and neutered. Having a pet is a reponsiblility and with that responsibility comes caring for them and providing a safe and protected life. They cannot do this for themselves and need US to do it for them. Not only does not fixing your pet cause increased overpopulation but there are HEALTH factors for YOUR pet.
What can you do to stop the suffering?
Spay and neuter your pet! In addition to saving lives, spaying and neutering can also drastically improve your pet's health and life expectancy. The idea that pets become fat or lazy when they are spayed or neutered is a myth. Sterilized pets lead healthier, longer lives. Spaying a female eliminates the possibility of uterine and ovarian cancer and greatly reduces the risk of breast cancer. Neutering a male reduces the risk of both prostate enlargement and prostate cancer. Neutering also will make your pet more affectionate and less likely to roam, get in fights, or become lost.
Doghause (http://www.doghause.com/spay.asp)

Many puppy mills start out as BYB. They don't have qualifications, testing facilities and know-how to breed safely and respectfully. These dogs end up living in small cramped cages with another 5 dogs. It's absolutely heart wrenching and disgusting. Is this was you're saying is "alright"?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/samanthajc/mill-a.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/samanthajc/mill-b.jpg
goldenretreiver.com (http://www.golden-retriever.com/just_another_puppy_mill.htm)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/samanthajc/dogs.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/samanthajc/duncan_puppymill.jpg
Please check out this article: Puppymills: What they are and what you can do about them (http://www.dachshund.org/puppymills.html)

All BYB many not turn out like this, but definately contribute to the fact that there are just too many animals and not enough caring loving homes.

Yes, adopting an animal SHOULD be difficult! Just like adopting a child you're incharge of a LIFE! And how you treat and respect that life means everything! We all sit here and talk about how horrible people can be to their animals and what we want to do to help. The EASIEST thing you can do to help is have your animal SPAYED OR NEUTERED!!! These animals do deserve a home too.... but it's our job to try and help people understand WHY we don't agree with what they are doing or thinking of doing!

I don't mean offence to anyone, but this is an open public forum and we do reserve the right ot free speech.

And yes Whinnie Boo, I made a mistake. I apologized for it when I made that comment and even erased what I had said... but you can still use that against me if you like. Thanks.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 12:02 PM
I agree with you sammiec - and I hope the dog has since been spayed. Having byb pups is nothing to brag about.

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 12:55 PM
Firstly, I used no names in my post, so if its weighing on anyones mind that they passed judgement on me, and were proved wrong, I had a point to make and used an example with no names, for that reason.

Who in Gods name says I'm bragging, and who would put a 10 month old, 19-21 lbs dog under anastetic when you knew she would not make it through surgery? Who was beyond malnourished and doing better (said the vet) because she was pregnant. I'm not bragging about the fact of how they came to be, I'm simply not ashamed of them, and shouldn't have to justify why I rescued and allowed for a litter, which I placed responsibly, because people disagree with me. Because I could not have afforded an abortion for her at that time, what should I have done? Turned her over to be someone who could take care of/dispose of the Pups, and her, or do my best to care for her to the best of my ability? Throw her out the door because I didn't want responsiblity for this litter in the first place. And if I'm attacked for one reason or another, I have the right to defend myself. I know I'm a good Mom, and no one has the right to pass judgement on me, or anyone on this board who asks a question, unless they are willing to ask questions themselves to get the facts straight. My biggest pet peeve is that a majority of responses indicate that the original post was never read correctly, and we're going off on people with the wrong facts. Those incorrect facts stick in peoples minds, and get reflected from post to post. Causing the reputations that some people are getting. This "FIND ALL POSTS BY......" is a great resource that PETS.CA has provided us.
I WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER LITTER OF PUPPIES FROM MY GIRLS - 1 is fixed and the other is in for spay on Friday. But, again, I'm taking care of my family to the best of my ability, and no matter what, if I end up in a cardboard box on the street, no one will care for my dogs better then I do.

sammiec
January 6th, 2005, 01:03 PM
I don't know why you're going off on a trantum WB. I merely posted my thought on BYB. That's all. You're case is different obviously.

And I'm sure that others might have known who you were refering to with your little gab: Just the other day I had it thrown in my face again by a member who had been away for a while...QUOTE "My first impression seems to be correct". Then things just get opened up again, and blown out of proportion.

Sorry for making a mistake, correcting it, and apologizing.

When vistors see this thread "BYB opinions" it should be seen that this activity is not something that our board condones. YOU did not breed Whinnie, I understand why you placed all those dogs and did not have them put down... I never passed judgement on you for Whinnie.

When you first posted here about Boo being pregnant you had already had a dog that had a litter and were expecting another one (as you thought), but things turned out differently, right? So that doesn't make you a BYB...

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 01:15 PM
OK, Sammie, I also apologize, but as I stated it was an example, with which I never intended to expand on. That is the point I'm trying to make, things get carried over, and thrown in peoples faces, after the issue has been cleared up. My biggest issue is how we come down on others for not sharing our views, Please don't deny that you know how many members sign up, get told of and never come back. We're here to help the animals, and thats it, bottom line. I wasn't scared away as easily as others, because I can prove what a good mom I am, no questions asked, I have nothing to hide. Now I explained to you earlier the situation with Boo's pregnancy, but Honey, I have to work to support them, and I do it alone. I'd rather struggle and put things off sometimes as long as possible then ever considering parting with my kids.
So what if some next person can have them spayed immediatley, because they can afford it, does that mean they deserve my dog more then I do? Money is nice, but Love is what they need. Accidents happen, and you have to deal with what comes up, as it comes up. So, because of this reputation I pretty much feel like I'm wasting my time here, who wants help from a BYB Pitbull owner? and that exact phrase has been used on many threads, directed towards me. So, unlike others I'll defend myself, I have that right. Just as everyone has the right to their opinions, and posting bul**hit info about me without all the facts. If you really want to know Pm me and I'll answer any question you may have. Like I said....NOTHING TO HIDE....and if you really think about it, how many people are 100% honest here??????????

Schwinn
January 6th, 2005, 01:18 PM
You're not a backyard breeder, any more than my buddy who built his car is an auto-maker! A breeder is someone who intentionlly breeds puppies, consistantly, with the sole purpose of selling them or giving them away! And while I think something needs to be done about the hundreds of animals that wind up in shelters every year, I also think a puppy has better chance at life, even if it winds up in a shelter, if it's allowed to live. (but hey, that's just my logic...) I'm not condemning anyone on thier decision to do otherwise, but that's how I feel. And I look at Daisy who spends 90% of her time sleeping or wagging her tail, and I can't help but think that there just might be one or two more homes out there that would make a dog just as happy. I don't see anything you've done that would justify being condemned by someone else. Some may choose to disagree (I, myself, think all pets should be spayed or neutered if you aren't breeding them or showing them. Except my fish. I have sausage fingers, and I'm not dextarious), but without disagreement, we wouldn't have debate. And I think 90% of the things are here where a disagreement arises boils down to one thing, opinion.

And since I'm on a roll, the whole thing with BYB confuses me as well. I see people say how irresponsible it is to be a BYB, or buy from one, when there are all these dogs in shelters, then talk about licensed or registered breeders. It seems to me that one is just as irresponsible as the other. Now, if you want to get into issues about health and such, that's different. But even then, I think it becomes an issue breeder to breeder. One may be more responsible than the other. Then if you want to get into "designer breeds", well, aren't they all? Is the American Bulldog not a cross between a terrier and a bulldog? Does responsibility lie in the fact that one is recognized by a sanctioning body, while the other isn't? I really like it here a lot, but I do admit that there seems to be certain groups that are attacked more than others, and I have to scratch my head. Maybe I'm not as knowledgable as others (I love dogs, and I've done a lot of reading on pitbulls as Daisy is part, but other than that, no, I haven't fully researched a lot of the other issues) but it really does seem to me sometimes that we choose who to condemn based soley on whether the shingle they hang in front of thier shop has some official stamp or something.

I'm just saying...

Schwinn
January 6th, 2005, 01:24 PM
Wow. I started my reply before lunch, had to leave, came back and finished, so really it was done at 11:30.

Oh, and I'm sorry Whinnie that I started this up again...

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 01:26 PM
Good points! And BYB is a term used differently by most people - there is no true definition. And glad you brought up the licensed and registered breeders issue, since there is not such a thing. Registered dogs are just that, means nothing about the breeder tho. CKC registered dogs land in need of rescue - papers are no guarantee against being homeless or euthanized.

And since I'm on a roll, the whole thing with BYB confuses me as well. I see people say how irresponsible it is to be a BYB, or buy from one, when there are all these dogs in shelters, then talk about licensed or registered breeders. It seems to me that one is just as irresponsible as the other. Now, if you want to get into issues about health and such, that's different. But even then, I think it becomes an issue breeder to breeder. One may be more responsible than the other. Does responsibility lie in the fact that one is recognized by a sanctioning body, while the other isn't? ...

sammiec
January 6th, 2005, 01:29 PM
I think you're totally missing the point of my post Whinnie. I did in no way state that money is more important then anything. Nor did I state that "putting off" spaying and neuturing because of financial situations makes you a BYB! BUT, telling people it's alright that your dog is not spayed, just watch them carfully is not. As you know, things can happen out of your control. But preventing more unwanted puppies is something that CAN be.

Spaying and Neuturing should be mandatory for adopting an animal anywhere.. doesn't mean that you can't love your pet... but it does prevent any unwanted extra vet bills do to complications of labour, illness from cancers, prostate enlargements, etc. AND unwanted animals. Sure, puppies are cute... but no everyone thinks like we do. Many people don't want the burden after a certain period of time and just hand them over....some people are simply in it for the money... that's when Puppy Mills start and it's a vicious and unforgiving circle.

Like Schwinn stated, BYB's are people that are knowingly breeding their dog for money....

DogueLover
January 6th, 2005, 01:34 PM
I think that Whinnie has had to defend herself too many times by people who just like to attack someone for not agreeing that all dogs have to be rescue dogs and only licenced breeders with registered dogs have the right to breed their dogs. Even though my dogue did come from a breeder who had registered titled dogs, she could have been considered a BYB because her dogs are not CKC registered.( Not because she didn`t register them with CKC because she couldn`t register them with CKC because they are not a recognized breed). I don`t think all the CKC registered breeders follow the code of ethics ............... I know of dogs that came from a puppy mill that all had registration papers so maybe the problem is with the process, and the individual.
How does the CKC govern their code of ethics? Do they check with the breeders and do home/kennel visits so that they know the code of ethics is being followed or do they just take the word of the breeder? Just curious as I don`t know and would like to ... and if you know of a breeder that is in question how do you get them to stop their practises?? I mean the one puppy mill was shut down because I reported them to the SPCA and the conditions were appaling............... but the litters were all registered with the CKC............. it just doesn`t make sense.

Whinnie, you inspire me .................. good for you for having the guts and determination to defend what you know in your heart........... we can all learn from you............ I know I have :thumbs up

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 01:49 PM
Exactly Sammie, most of the time I don't think anyone understands. Now I can give you plently of examples of people on this board who have called me just that....So, I'm not going overboard here taking things personally. But, I won't go there. I just finally had enough and yes...I'm having a tantrum, its well past due. For a while I was mad, then it just made me laugh, with every PM I got agreeing with me. So, it turned into a joke between me and another member who knows me that I'm the BYB. This whole Forum started on the sleeping animal thread and was moved over, so there are posts missing. Not all the facts again, has led LL1 to think I'm bragging. See what I mean.
I could care less what people think of me, I'm more concerned with the way that others are attacked, I'd gladly have anyone into my home to see my kids anytime, and We're constantly having playdates with Members of this board. What it comes down to has nothing to do with BYB opinions, I did not start this thread. It has to do with passing judgement on people without all the facts

mastifflover
January 6th, 2005, 01:54 PM
I think reputable breeders are few and far between anyone can call themselves a breeder just as anyone can say they are a rescue. I feel it is your job as a potential owner to do your homework and when you find a breeder you are comfortable with and will answer all your questions with confidence and willingness to give you information about anything you ask to me is the sign of a good breeeder. It is not law but most of the breeders who I have known or had dealings with put in their contract if the dog cannot remain in the owners home he/she will be returned to the breeder and some money may or may not change hands that depending on reasons. I know a breeder who went and took one of her dogs back because the new owners lied about the dog being a pet and kept in the home. She drove by on several occasions to see how the dog was doing and everytime the dog was tied up outside after the 4th drive by she left a note asking them to call. They did and she drove over gave them their money back and left with her dog. That is a reputable breeder she genuinely cares about her litters and keeps in contact with many of them. And yes she also does rescue.

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 01:58 PM
DOUGELOVER.....THANK-YOU.

You go girl, this is why I haven't left the board, people like you and of course your ANGEL who I can not get enough of. No one seems to understand that I'm not throwing a tantrum, I've finally grown the balls to defend myself, and mostly to defend you and your angel!!

mesaana
January 6th, 2005, 02:06 PM
Hello

I've been following these threads with interest. Before I even came on this forum, I already had a good idea of how you should get new pets: rescue (or humane society) or a good breeder. My definition of a good breeder seems to include something I don't see many people mention: working titles. Conformation titles are all well and good but I don't think they are sufficient. What do I mean by working titles? My definition is large. Anything from basic obedience to shutzhund to agility to herding, etc. It really depends on the breed of dog and the interest of the breeder. But I think it's important because it proves your well-bred dog is also a dog who has parents who have proven they can learn. Any comments on that?

Also, Whinnie, I understand where you come from... When I adopted my Rottie from the SPCA, she was pregnant... I didn't know. She was in heat when I got her so I was waiting for her 2 months before getting her spayed and came home one day and she had had 1 puppy. I found a good home for him and then had her spayed. She stayed with me for years and died in the fall of osteosarcoma (bone cancer).

Lyne

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 02:07 PM
Absolutely - excellent post! Some shelters now are putting rescues through an approval process to be able to pull dogs - and I think it's a great idea, I wish all of them did it. TAS has an extensive screening now as does Hamilton SPCA.

I think reputable breeders are few and far between anyone can call themselves a breeder just as anyone can say they are a rescue. I feel it is your job as a potential owner to do your homework and when you find a breeder you are comfortable with and will answer all your questions with confidence and willingness to give you information about anything you ask to me is the sign of a good breeeder.

CyberKitten
January 6th, 2005, 02:25 PM
I hardly think of you as a BYB Winnie. And I really think there are not too many of at least my definition of a BYB who post here. (Most BYB would not take the time to be concerned about the animal's heath). Some people - through no fault of their own end up with kittens or puppies. I myself have been in that situation - rescued kittens whose mother was killed. I was not a breeder and it is not a role I want. Real breeders do not make money from what they do. Rather, it is a costly venture and they do it out of love for the breed.

I think though that because we all love animals so much that when we see someone post a question about health that affects our own morality and practices that our strongly held opinions lead us to wonder about the raison d'etre behind the question and why the person may not have already taken the pet to the vet, that kind of thing.

messanna, I am not sure what you mean by "working titles". I define titles by the pet's pedigree. If you mean animals who work - like sheep dogs, border collies who herd on a farm, even mousers I suppose, I am not sure that is a title as much as what the animal does. My father, whose parents had a hobby farm and adores animals, still has that mentality of many in his generation that an animal work for their keep and used to tease me about my "stock" when my bunny was alive.

I do think that if you want to adopt, it id good to know the background of the parents if that's what you mean. But I have to say that the kittens I raised - whose parents I really did not know - proved to be excellent and were well socialized. I sometimes felt like Gosling and his ducks mind you, lol

mesaana
January 6th, 2005, 02:36 PM
Cyberkitten,

Maybe I should have specified I meant that for dogs. I don't believe there are any such titles for cats (I don't think the cats would tolerate it ;)) What I meant is, for example, an obedience title, like CD (Companion Dog) where the dog undergoes obedience trials. But I'm not limiting it to obedience, which is why I mentioned the rest, agility, etc. I do not mean that the dog has to work for a living. (Although I'm a big believer in including obedience in everyday life and I think most dogs love to have "jobs").

Hope that clarifies what I meant

Lyne

Lucky Rescue
January 6th, 2005, 02:41 PM
I made people sign contracts stating they would not crop the tail or ears & have them medically tested before breeding

Breeding? You are allowing people who adopted your BYB puppies to breed irresponsibly bred, unregistered, and untitled pit bulls? Aren't there enough of them in the shelters and rescues already?

I know your dog was pregnant when you got her (what's the reason Boo was never spayed?) but allowing this cycle of irresponsible breeding (of pit bulls in ON, of all places) to continue is compounding the tragedy of this breed that is overpopulated and dying in large numbers specifically because people are doing exactly this.

It was your responsibility to rectify the situation by either having the puppies spayed/neutered before adoption (the fee would cover the cost) or having adopters sign a contract stating they would do so by a certain age and enforcing it.

Are you going to be responsible for all the puppies you may have had or will have a hand in creating?


Estimating the single litter of one dam = 7 puppies
with 5 of those puppies producing offspring: 5 x 35 = 175 Span Tabulations Total # Dogs
1st Generation 7 7
2nd Generation 5 x 35 175
3rd Generation 175 x 35 6,125
4th Generation 6,125 x 35 21,4375
5th Generation 21,4375 x 35 7,503,125
6th Generation 7,503,125 x 35 26,261,060

sammiec
January 6th, 2005, 02:45 PM
Oh, I missed that. Good eye LR.

mesaana
January 6th, 2005, 02:57 PM
I missed it too.

I think that sometimes, people are just ignorant and do things wrong because they just don't know. I know some people that honestly thought that one litter makes a bitch better. I think everyone should get educated (and that education sometimes takes the form of me ranting... I mean explaining to them about unwanted puppies) Once you know, you have no more excuses.

Lyne

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Yikes!!!!!
Breeding? You are allowing people who adopted your BYB puppies to breed irresponsibly bred, unregistered, and untitled pit bulls? Aren't there enough of them in the shelters and rescues already?

I know your dog was pregnant when you got her (what's the reason Boo was never spayed?) but allowing this cycle of irresponsible breeding (of pit bulls in ON, of all places) to continue is compounding the tragedy of this breed that is overpopulated and dying in large numbers specifically because people are doing exactly this.

It was your responsibility to rectify the situation by either having the puppies spayed/neutered before adoption (the fee would cover the cost) or having adopters sign a contract stating they would do so by a certain age and enforcing it.

Are you going to be responsible for all the puppies you may have had or will have a hand in creating?


Estimating the single litter of one dam = 7 puppies
with 5 of those puppies producing offspring: 5 x 35 = 175 Span Tabulations Total # Dogs
1st Generation 7 7
2nd Generation 5 x 35 175
3rd Generation 175 x 35 6,125
4th Generation 6,125 x 35 21,4375
5th Generation 21,4375 x 35 7,503,125
6th Generation 7,503,125 x 35 26,261,060

Lucky Rescue
January 6th, 2005, 03:06 PM
I think that sometimes, people are just ignorant and do things wrong because they just don't know. I know some people that honestly thought that one litter makes a bitch better. I think everyone should get educated (and that education sometimes takes the form of me ranting... I mean explaining to them about unwanted puppies) Once you know, you have no more excuses

I agree, and anyone owning or breeding pit bulls better start caring and educating themselves PDQ.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 03:10 PM
I hope they do Lucky.

sammiec
January 6th, 2005, 03:10 PM
I agree, and anyone owning or breeding pit bulls better start caring and educating themselves PDQ.

AMEN to that!!! :thumbs up

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 03:19 PM
See what I mean???? I clearly stated the reason Boo had not yet been spayed, MONEY. The problem is no one read throughly enough, and they go off. Prime example. I'm young, I live on my own, and since the time she has been old enough, just not financially possible. So, to this board that is irresponsible, fine, whatever. So, does that mean I should throw them out? Leave them to someone else's expense, add to the Pits in the Pound. NO, I CAN JUST DO THE BEST THAT I CAN FOR MY KIDS, AND LOVE THEM TO DEATH. ACCIDENTS HAPPEN. I'm going into no further detail about my financial situation still to this day, cause its none of anyones business. But, if you're not willing to read every post over until you get all the facts, your just adding to the Bul**hit that I was origianlly trying to stop.
What am I to do about pups, I could not have paid for all to be spayed not to mention they were too young, and I have said how many times that I still know where everyone of them are (THEY HAVE ALL BEEN FIXED< BOO DUE ON FRIDAY). I did not even expect them, I just got called home from work one day to my dog dropping babies. It was an accident I dealt with and I did it to the best of my ability. If you're all more responsible owners the me, so be it. There is no use arguing anyway. About the breeding, I did not know anything about PUPS, I was not a breeder, just in a crappy situation. I did not know what I could hold people to legally, and what they could come back on me for. So sue me for not knowing I had the right to tell them they could not breed at all. The point is really not about whether BYB is acceptable, its about people attacking others without facts. And not taking time to ask questions.

mesaana
January 6th, 2005, 03:29 PM
I get the feeling even though I have been reading these threads for a while, I still didn't read enough... Oh well.

Whinnie, ok, so you didn't know then what you know now. (I'm presuming because I haven't read all your posts) Now, if you adopted a pregnant dog unknowingly, you would do things differently, right? And Boo is getting spayed this week. So things are improving. No more puppies and now you can also educate people.

Right?

Lyne

sammiec
January 6th, 2005, 03:37 PM
Not everyone reads every post here. There is a lot going on and it's hard to keep track of what stories have changed. So sometimes you have to repeat yourself.

It's not just some members of this board that find it irresponsible not to spay or neutuer. There are THOUSANDS of advocate organizations for spaying a neutuering. To me, whinne, it seems that you are very resourceful person. There are groups, humane societies, veterinary schools that have low cost spay and neutuer clinics. I'm sure you could find something.

I too am young; I live on my own and have a cat and dog. They are both UTD and fixed. You can't use that as an excuse. I know it's hard sometimes, trust me, I've been there... but there are resouces. ie: Briggs is due for a rabies shot in Feb. so I save money to make sure she gets it.

Accidents happen? That's a great way to look at it?!?! This is UNAVOIDABLE! Kinda like running with scissors....

Schwinn
January 6th, 2005, 03:51 PM
So how's everyone enjoying the new forum?

sammiec
January 6th, 2005, 03:54 PM
Schwinn, join me for ice cream? :p

DogueLover
January 6th, 2005, 04:03 PM
Sammiec if you cared enough to read all the posts you would have seen that when Whinnie was rescued ( more like dropped at her door) she was ALREADY Pregnant! OMGAWSH the ignorance of people sometimes completely amazes me...........

When you say that a dog you rescued that was already pregnant........ and that accidents like that are preventable yeah sure........ had she been in her possession from the start I could say okay........but come on now are you really that narrow minded????

Since attacking Whinnie seems to be the idea here I am going to stand up and say that I have just about had it with the attitude that she was in the wrong.

I am going to say this and probably be told off pretty good but what the heck........... why should this not be a total waste of time..........

There are things we can control in this life and there are things we cannot......... I understand completely how it feels to be the one there when a "rescue" is put down.......... and I know the heartbreak of not being able to place them but for all of you on your soap boxes preaching about how ALL pets need to come from shelters and that no one should breed until all UNWANTED dogs have homes............ CHECK into REALITY! I am a realist and I know that no matter how much you preach, beg, and get into everyone`s face about this the problem is NOT going to go away! It is sad but that is the harsh reality of life. Not everyone is going to be a responsible owner, and you cannot make someone RESPONSIBLE.

The millions of strays or unwanted pets that are put to sleep every year are not the fault of people like Whinnie............. so get off her back already! The problem is that there are always going to be people out there that are irresponsible........... and cruel............ and who don`t give a rats a$$ about the dog or other pet they have. It is a problem with HUMANS not PETS.

For anyone else who wants to take a swing at Whinnie let me tell you that I am standing there ready to defend her and the actions she has taken.

Maybe instead of preaching how bad a person is before you start slamming them you should do your homework .............. if you had in this case you would have realized that the dog in question was a RESCUE dog that came to her that way......... and she chose to do what she thought was best( I am sure with the opinion of her vet as well).

This kind of constant attack is doing NOTHING for the pets you say you are trying to save........... if anything it will scare off any new members who don`t want to suffer the same wrath.


As long as we, as a race ( and I mean the human race) continue to attack those who don`t agree with our point of view we are going to deal with this as well as other unspeakable atrocities. Yes I feel for the pets that never find a home, yes I feel for the puppy miller dogs, and yes I feel for those who have to work with this on a daily basis,,,, but it is not going to get better by everyone jumping all over someone for making a choice that isn`t what you may feel was right.

Sneaky2006
January 6th, 2005, 04:18 PM
DL... I surely hope you're not calling anyone ignorant? If Sammie made a mistake about which dog was pregnant, or which one ISN'T fixed, that hardly makes her ignorant.

This entire board has an opinion and for the most part it is to fix your pet no matter what! With that said... Whinnie saying stuff like this, sarcastic or not, is going to make a stink! I love to show off my BYB pups, don't you know???

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 04:27 PM
Sammiec is not ignorant. This concerns people - ALOT.
I made people sign contracts stating they would not crop the tail or ears & have them medically tested before breeding.

Sneaky2006
January 6th, 2005, 04:30 PM
Cropping them should be the least of anyones worries....

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 04:34 PM
It was the breeding part I was referring to, sorry for any misunderstanding.

DogueLover
January 6th, 2005, 04:34 PM
My comment about ignorant people is in general and Sneaky you have to have met some in your lifetime .................


If you knew the story you would have known that the BYB comment was very sarcastic. It was understood by myself and anyone else on this board who knows how Whinnie has been labeled since the post about the dog having those puppies. Not all vets will agree to spay your pregnant dog....... I know because the one here refuses to .
For some people in this world Ignorance is Bliss...........

I just want everyone to get all the facts before going off on someone.......

Sneaky2006
January 6th, 2005, 04:37 PM
Sammiec if you cared enough to read all the posts you would have seen that when Whinnie was rescued ( more like dropped at her door) she was ALREADY Pregnant! OMGAWSH the ignorance of people sometimes completely amazes me........... You call this "in general"?? Is Sammie's name not in the front of this rant?

And LL1... I didn't misunderstand, I wanted to add that to my comments earlier and you reminded me about it... :)

DogueLover
January 6th, 2005, 04:44 PM
Like I said the ignorance comment has to do with the general population not her in particular. She obviously did not have all the information and that irritates me because I know how people have labeled Whinnie over this and it is not fair to her.\

If this ticks anyone off well then I guess it will, and if they throw me off the board over it well so be it , I am just stating how I feel ......... because what happened to Whinnie has happened to me when I asked a simple question about my Dogue........... and I think it needs to stop.

Sammiec I don`t think you are an ignorant person, I just think you needed to know the whole story about Whinnie and the puppies. This was not a breeding that happened while she was with Whinnie Boo it was the state she was in when she got her. Those things we cannot prevent. I thnk that she did what she could and had to deal with what she was handed......... I don`t know that I would have done anything different put in that same situation and I don`t believe it is fair to chew her out over it. Everyone makes decisions in life that they feel are the best for their situation........ we don`t have to agree with them but I do feel we should respect them.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 04:44 PM
OK - thanks Sammiec! :)

BMDLuver
January 6th, 2005, 04:46 PM
Just clarify for me why you would then add additional pets to your home if the one's you have you cannot afford to alter?

Take it as you like but we survive on one salary in this home and all are animals that come in get altered with the exception of our potbellied pig who is still too young to do so with, but will get done when she is ready. Which may mean a slimmer grocery week for a month but that's the responsible approach, no?

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 04:47 PM
Where was that posted? I missed it.

When you first posted here about Boo being pregnant you had already had a dog that had a litter and were expecting another one (as you thought), but things turned out differently, right?...

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 04:53 PM
@ sammiec,

I have no idea where you work, what you make, what you pay in rent, or any financial details about you. I'm glad you have extra too SAVE but all of us aren't that lucky. So, if you can provide better for them.....shall I drop them off to you? Or maybe the pound in hopes that they'll find a better owner who has money to spay them immediatley. You have no idea about my finacial situation, and if its not a good enough excuse for not having Boo spayed yet, OH-WELL. It is the truth. I have nothing to hide, I just have not been able to afford it, for reasons that are no one's business.
For the last time, this whole thread has nothing to do with BYB, it was a joke between Dougelover and I, who has taken the time to ask about my situation and understands where I'm coming from, when she first saw pic's of my kids.
Now, this whole Rant can be turned to be about me, but thats not how it started. This forum was started & titled by Admin. not me.

This is just stupid, and every post it gets worse. Attack me all you want.

DogueLover
January 6th, 2005, 04:53 PM
This is exactly what Whinnie said, things get moved around and pieces are missing so only parts of the story get told.
I know that caring for your pets is a huge responsibility and that a litter of pups or a pregnant dog coming to your home is not something you can plan for so what are you to do?

Can anyone tell me that had this dog been dropped on your doorstep you would have turned your back and said " Gee if there was only something I could do?"
This pet was not purchased nor was the litter planned so those two things have to be taken into consideration......... don`t they? And as I said before NOT all vets will spay a pregnant dog..........

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 05:01 PM
Dougelover, Honey, Thanks you so much, but don't waste your breath. If no one is willing to go over all my posts on there own, before they get on here talking *hit, no big deal. Let them think whatever they want. There's nothing you can do.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 05:04 PM
Allow people to breed pups from that dog that arrived pregnant?
This pet was not purchased nor was the litter planned so those two things have to be taken into consideration......... don`t they? And as I said before NOT all vets will spay a pregnant dog..........

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 05:05 PM
I'm curious about the other litters mentionned. This is exactly what Whinnie said, things get moved around and pieces are missing so only parts of the story get told.
.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Whinnie is in Ontario - LOTS of vets will spay a pregnant dog - trust me. Would take only a few phone calls.
And as I said before NOT all vets will spay a pregnant dog..........

mastifflover
January 6th, 2005, 05:07 PM
I am just going to point out whinnie also stated awhile back that they were all neutered and spayed since they were adopted

Sneaky2006
January 6th, 2005, 05:07 PM
She said she didn't know what she could put in the contract as far as limiting breeding.... Also LL1, the other one thought to be pregnant was a pup from the first litter mentioned...
Not that it matters, I don't think anything's going to change.

DogueLover
January 6th, 2005, 05:09 PM
:grouphug: Whinnie.

This has soured me again toward dealing with any rescues, :yuck:
I know you followed your heart and that is good enough for me.


Other than taking people to court after they breed a dog on a non breeding contract there is little that can be done anyway so why even bother putting it in the contract?

Need a dogue smile to get you through???

DogueLover
January 6th, 2005, 05:12 PM
I only know of the one litter ......... Whinnie`s and Boo was thought to be pregnant but wasn`t. Just wondering what other litters you meant?

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 05:12 PM
Why do you assume everyone with a dissenting opinion is in rescue? And you do have a point - which is why most rescues alter all dogs before placement, and if not possible have a clause saying NO breeding can happen and they will take the dog back. I don't know any that allow breeding like her contract does.

:grouphug: Whinnie.

This has soured me again toward dealing with any rescues, :yuck:
I know you followed your heart and that is good enough for me.


Other than taking people to court after they breed a dog on a non breeding contract there is little that can be done anyway so why even bother putting it in the contract?

Need a dogue smile to get you through???

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 05:13 PM
This post here made me wonder - how many litters have happened and through what circumstances?
When you first posted here about Boo being pregnant you had already had a dog that had a litter and were expecting another one (as you thought), but things turned out differently, right? So that doesn't make you a BYB...

BMDLuver
January 6th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Many rescues are turning to Prepuberal Gonadectomy.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Absolutely! I support that 100% - it can be hard to get a vet that will tho.

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 05:48 PM
LL1, to clear things up....again.

A while back (NOV) I had a huge scare into thinking Boo was pregnant. She was at home all day with her dad, and NEVER out unsupervised, even in our yard. I blamed him, called him irresponsible and kicked him out of the house. When I could Boo went in for an Ultrasound......No pups. Just inflammed tissue in her uterus. Caused by coming into heat late, and not cleaning herself properly. She lives with her mom - Whinnie & mostly relys on Whinnie cleaning her. That was all corrected with Antibiotics, and she is into her Vet on Friday for her Spay, so I can stay with her as long as they'll allow being on the weekend. But, I'm on my way home, so everyone can keep typing about me, but I'd suggest going over my 250 something posts and getting somemore details.

BMDLuver
January 6th, 2005, 05:52 PM
is a little more innovative with regards to US studies on vaccinations and we will be discussing this as well. From a rescue standpoint it makes sense as one it totally eliminates any risk when adopting out a puppy and it can be far more cost effective when looking at anesthesia per body weight. It may not fly but with the proper research and education it could certainly make for a less populated shelter.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 05:55 PM
I agree completely!
From a rescue standpoint it makes sense as one it totally eliminates any risk when adopting out a puppy and it can be far more cost effective when looking at anesthesia per body weight. It may not fly but with the proper research and education it could certainly make for a less populated shelter.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 05:57 PM
I didn't see your clarify before - my apologies - I don't know you or your posts.

Your dog was 1 1/2 and not spayed and you thought she was pregnant? Is that right?

I am glad she is being spayed now.
LL1, to clear things up....again.

A while back (NOV) I had a huge scare into thinking Boo was pregnant. She lives with her mom - Whinnie & mostly relys on Whinnie cleaning her.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 05:57 PM
Who do you foster for with intact pets?

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 06:09 PM
That was the only thing I haven't made clear Boo-Boo just turned 1 in December. She's still my baby, even if she is twice the size of Whin. Apology accepted BTW, I understand entirely, but you also have to understand that this is the whole point of this thread. That people do not do any homework, but they get on here and freak on me, when they're proved wrong, most don't reply. Apologies are few & far between.

whinnie-boo
January 6th, 2005, 06:14 PM
I foster a friends dog, as he had no options other then the spca, which he would have no hopes of survival in, he is 8 yrs old. Neutered, UTD on shots and just a handsome boy.

He covers him entirely financially, he just lives with me to combat his seperation anxiety. Let me guess this makes me a bad person too, for not wanting to send an 8yr old pitbull to certin death at the pound?????????

What you everyone else have done? Turned your backs on DEZ??????? It just means I get less, and my kids get more. I'm not poor by any means, I just realized how that sounded. But, getting seperated, having to move recently because of the dogs, transportation, food, etc..... a few hundred dollars is a lot to come by. I don't drive, I know of places to take Boo, at reduced cost, NO CAR. Up until just recently I couldn't even find a vet who would accept payments. Whinnie was done in Dec. as soon as I found this vet.

Schwinn
January 6th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Hello, Baskin Robbins...yea, I'm going to need all you've got...

This has really gotten out of hand I think. My head is spinning a little. Oh, and call me immature, but "Prepuberal Gonadectomy" made me giggle...

Okay, not helping. I'm going now. Sorry.*snicker*gonadectomy*snicker*

CyberKitten
January 6th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Winnie,

For some reason (not sure why) I was under the impression you spayed the puppies before you found adoptees? Certainly, in asking a fee, you may have covered at least part of the cost. I asked a fee for the kittens I ended up with (I kept two mind you, lol) and the other two were spayed and then adopted for a small fee to people I checked almost as thoroughly as the CIA - even if you know someone, you do not know if their home is a good one for a pet.

You did have the adoptees sign a contract ensuring the puppies be spayed and checked to make sure that occured though, right? (That is usually what breeders of exotic cats do) For the most part, it is successful but there are court cases when some person violates the agreement and breeds the cat - which shows that even good breeders sometimes are fooled by unscrupulous adopters.

Re: Money is nice, but Love is what they need. The do need love but I have to say it is a costly venture to properly raise any animal. I budgeted at least $5,000 for my little one this year and that is barring any unforseen accidents or health problems.

I am guessing the dog just happened to come into your life - I cannot imagine adopting a dog knowing you could not afford the spay surgery. I've always thought it quite inexpensive to spay puppies. (It seems like such a small price to pay to help a friend!) Could you have found family members to support you? Worked out a payment plan with a vet?

Or was the dog pregnant when you found her? (I just thought I knew the story here - I never did read the sleeping aninal thread - the title did not indicate much)

I am just curious though - and please - I am not being critical, just wonder why you did not seek alternatives to spay the dog (Boo?) - cheap clinics, vet schools, that kind of thing. Was that not available? I can understand that if you rescued the dog but are not most "rescue" dogs spayed before being adopted? (I am just confused with this thread now - I've been up since 5 AM, maybe I get easily confused, lol)

Hopefully, all the adopters had the dog spayed and no doubt Boo is spayed now.

Re tiles, cats do have titles - Best Cat and so forth. Yin Yin's mother is some sort of Grand Champion as is her father and she is a "show" cat - which was why the breeder could charge more for her. The pet quality cats are less expensive. I think I know what you mean mesaana but I am not entirely sure - you mean working pets right? I am not familiar with the one you refer to.

It is understandable why this subject is so sensitive. We care for our animals and in this country alone, there are 5 cats for every household if each one had feline critters which of course they do not. So many cats - and dogs - suffer needlessly and cruelly every year. That is how I see the problem of not just BYB's but people who refuse to spay their animals.

BMDLuver
January 6th, 2005, 06:36 PM
Hello, Baskin Robbins...yea, I'm going to need all you've got...

This has really gotten out of hand I think. My head is spinning a little. Oh, and call me immature, but "Prepuberal Gonadectomy" made me giggle...

Okay, not helping. I'm going now. Sorry.*snicker*gonadectomy*snicker*
I know it's a mouthful but it is a good idea.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 07:32 PM
Your signature says:

Boo-Boo Age 1 1/2

That was the only thing I haven't made clear Boo-Boo just turned 1 in December.

LL1
January 6th, 2005, 07:35 PM
Schwinn - you can call it pediatric altering if that's better LOL.
"Prepuberal Gonadectomy" made me giggle...

Lucky Rescue
January 6th, 2005, 09:32 PM
Other than taking people to court after they breed a dog on a non breeding contract there is little that can be done anyway so why even bother putting it in the contract?

You either do it before the adoption, or ensure that it's done. It's not difficult or complicated. What would be the point of saving animals if you just hand over intact kittens/puppies and allow new owners to breed them?

If you merely tell the adopters to have the animal vet checked before breeding it, you not only are condoning the breeding, you are then a broker who is not only not helping reduce the population, but are actually hurting animals.

heeler's rock!
January 6th, 2005, 10:57 PM
I've been following this thread closely, and I have to say in Whinnie's defence LL1, that I also didn't know you could get an animal spayed and aborted until I got my last cat. Thankfully, I found out in time, and was able to get her spayed and the kittens aborted, but if were even a few months ago, I wouldn't have known, and I would have ended up with 5 kittens that I also could not spay or neuter due to financial issues. It's not something that people talk about or advertise, as abortion, in any context, is generally controversial.

I also don't know to much about legal issues. For example. When I board dogs, I get the owner's to sign a contract that has been revised a hundred times! I didn't know at first what I could ask of them,a dn what I couldn't. It took me getting shafted by not being paid in full, and other things, aswell as talking to people who also board, to find out what I can and cannot say. So it's not her fault that she didn't know. Now she does and she has learned from her mistakes. We all make mistakes, and hopefully learn from them.

The challenge is to be a light, not a judge. To be a model, not a critic.

whinnie-boo
January 7th, 2005, 08:49 AM
Heller's Rock - You Rock.

I first would like to say, that ALL the puppies have been spayed, and at the time (last year) I did not have the resources I have now that I'm spending everyday here learning from others experiences. Just as the rest of you have at one point or another.

WHERE DID WHINNIE COME FROM?????? Whinnie was born from a litter of Pups from MY best friend as a child's Dog. When his first litter came along, I was not ready for a dog, I was something like 16. Well, I lost contact with this friend when I moved to Vancouver. A few year later I returned and I heard his dog had just had her 5th litter. I inquired about a puppy, and they had all be adopted. He mentioned one that he did not have the resources to help, but needed her to be taken out of the situation she was in, with some a**hole teenager who went to the highschool by our house. Through a mutual friend I met Whinnie, and I started to sneak over and see her whenever I could. She was rarely eating, as this punk had no Money, and when she did eat it was 1/2 serving of PURINA PUPPY CHOW, from the grocery store. ($4.50/bag)
She had no toys, no leash, she had never been on a walk, she was using his house as the bathroom, she chewed anything she could get her teeth on. The house was infested with cochroaches and mice. Constantly people coming and going and she had no idea who was her master. She was alone the majority of the time, and had never seen a vet. Never been socialized and was the smallest thing you'd ever see. I was moving in a few weeks into a dog friendly apartment. It took a crazy amount of convincing, but I made James agree to give me the dog, he was just not taking care of her, and she was obviously getting sick. I took her to my moms vet to get her first shot, and then I took her home, as she had to stay with James until I moved, but I was with her most of the time. I bought her food, toys, treats, and a leash and collar to walk her. She was always so overjoyed when I would come in to visit. A week later James disappeared, and he took my Whinnie. So, Whinnie missed her booster shot @ the vet. I called the police, they were no help. Another 2 weeks after that I came home to my new apartment, and from the elevator I could hear our St. Bernard going nuts barking, which isn't like Amber at all. When the door opened, there was one of James friends holding Whinnie on a leash with no collar. She almost chocked herself off when she seen me. He told me James had left to the Yukon, and if I still wanted Whinnie I had to take her now. Of course, I immediatley got my room mate to come out and introduce her dog to mine, and She's been with me ever since. I didn't go to a RESCUE for Whinnie, I physically RESCUED Whinnie, from conditions I would wish on no one but Criminals, even then I'm not sure.
Whinnie destroyed everything I owned, my furniture, My bed, coffee tables, doors, walls, anything she could wrap her teeth around. She was like that up until the Pups came, and after a lot of training, I'm proud to say she is The absolute best behaved dog in the whole world. Same deal as Dez, NO ONE whould have tolerated Whinnie's behaviour for long, either I did, or she got bounced in and out of Shelters until they got sick of seeing her return and put her to sleep. NO DEAL!!!!! :evil:

But, Thats Whinnie's story. Boo-Boo has been spoiled rotten since the day she was born. Every situation is different and I wish no animal has to endure what my poor Whinnie did. But, its all good now because Whinnie knows how good she has it, and everyday in one way or another she shows her appreciation, and thats all I need. ;)

lil_kirk
January 7th, 2005, 09:16 AM
My question after reading of this is simple. If you had to do it all over again would you do it differently? Would you have your dogs spayed sooner? Would you tell others to do that? Obviously ragging on Winnie now does no good--what's done is done--she can't go back and change it.

My biggest worry is that it sounds to me like you were initially going to buy/adopt a pup from a terrible backyard breeder on two occasions--from a man who had bred his girl five times!!

People have to learn from their mistakes. Not everyone knows the in's and out's of the animal world. I can safely say that until this board I didn't realize as much about the strife of some animals as I do now.

You pick up and move ahead...making changes to the path ahead. If you're not in the best financial situation, perhaps you should have a small savings account open---put five bucks in every two weeks and begin saving money for your babies...every penny helps :D

mona_b
January 7th, 2005, 09:49 AM
HOW DO I RECOGNIZE A RESPECTABLE, RESPONSIBLE BREEDER??

To start, a RESPONSIBLE BREEDER breeds purebred dogs with the sincere desire to IMPROVE THE BREED. What does that mean? It means that the intent of each and every breeding is to produce dogs who are better (conformation, temperament, and health) than the breed as a whole. To do this, excellent specimens of the breed are chosen, and matches are made in conscience and knowledge, rather than in heaven or by convenience! IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDERS breed for all the wrong reasons, such as..."our dog(s) is wonderful and will make wonderful puppies," "we want another dog just like ours," "selling puppies is an easy way to make some money," "it will be a good experience for the kids," "we paid $500 for her and want to get it back out of her," "all female dogs should have at least one litter," "we can't afford to spay her (it was an accident)," "our breeder wanted us to breed her," "she comes from champion blood lines," "we have friends who want a dog just like ours," "she's AKC registered," "breeding will make my female less aggressive/hyper (which by the way is completely untrue, this breeding will just produce other aggressive or hyper dogs!)," and the list goes on and on....

In addition to the REASON for breeding, RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS have some other shining characteristics as well;

1) They are literal 'libraries' when it comes to knowledge about their breed - you can rarely ask a question regarding breed standard, historical/ancestral background, genetic issues, temperament, or abilities of their breed that a good breeder can't answer in their sleep!

2) All of their breeding dogs (and their dogs' ancestors) are certified free of genetic diseases - in goldens that means OFA certification for healthy hips, elbows, hearts & thyroids, and CERF clearances for healthy eyes. Responsible breeders will also be able to talk knowledgeably about other health concerns such as allergies, epilepsy and panosteitis. They'll know how many dogs from their past breedings have had any health issues, and they'll share that information with you! Anything sketchy in this area should raise immediate red flags!!

3) Their breeding dogs will not be under 2 years old or over 8 years old, and they won't breed any dog more than once a year or more than 4 times in her lifetime.

4) They won't have more than 1 or 2 litters per year at best, 3 or 4 at most - caring for a pregnant bitch and properly raising a litter of puppies is a full-time job that lasts at least 4 months if all goes well... you do the multiplication!

5) Their dogs will be indoor, family dogs (how else do they know that they're breeding 'good family dogs', and all litters will be raised indoors with the family (which is the ONLY way to properly care for and socialize a litter of 'family dogs'!). Puppies CAN NOT be properly observed, cared for, and socialized in the garage or in a kennel area that is not an integral part of the home!

6) A good breeder's dogs will be healthy, well-groomed, proper sizes and weights, and active. They will be involved in one or more areas of dog-sport as a means of comparing and contrasting their dogs with others to ensure that they are breeding only truly excellent dogs in an effort to improve the breed! Their dogs' pedigrees will have titled dogs throughout, including titles on the dogs being bred, and a good breeder will happily educate you on the different kinds of titles available to working/breeding-quality dogs! Just because you want a pet, doesn't mean it shouldn't come from capable, intelligent, beautiful, healthy, working lines! How else will you know that your new family member will be easily trained, responsive and willing? If you donít understand what titles mean (what did the dog do to earn them??), ASK QUESTIONS!! Ancestral titles can make a HUGE difference in the temperament and personality of the puppy you bring home!!

7) Responsible breeders will be more interested in you than you are in them! Responsible breeders MAKE SURE that their puppies are going to live with prepared, responsible, caring new families. They'll ask you to fill out an informational application, they'll screen your application, ask for references, and may visit your home. They'll inundate you with information and education to be sure that you are as prepared for raising a golden companion as you can possibly be!

8) They'll provide a written contract that includes, at the very least, the following obligations: 1) Your obligation to return the dog to the breeder if for any reason at any time you can no longer care for the dog (whether it's 2 days or 20 years later!); 2) Your obligation to spay or neuter the dog (registration will usually not be provided to you until proof of spay/neuter is provided) if the dog is not sold on a Show Dog Contract that requires you to show the dog in competition (by the way, NO litter produces ALL show dogs!!); and 3) The breeder's obligation to reimburse you for the cost of the dog if any defects in genetic health (hips, eyes, hearts, etc.) arise. (Watch for contracts that require you to return your beloved pet in order to receive a refund, this SHOULD NOT be the case - you should have the option of returning or keeping the dog and should receive a refund either way!!).

9) Responsible breeders will encourage you to seek out other breeders during your search for a puppy to be sure that you are making informed, well-rounded decisions. This is NOT a business for a good breeder, hence, they are not interested in making sure you 'buy' from them!! A good breeder's concern is the welfare of their puppies, and well-informed, concerned 'buyers' make the best homes!

10) A good breeder's whelping area will be well planned - well lit, warm, quiet but not isolated, and it will be immaculately clean! A good breeder will keep detailed records about puppies weights, health, and physical and social development, from the moment the puppies are born until the day they go to their new homes (each puppy will be individually marked with a colored ribbon or some other form of identification from the day of birth so the breeder can keep individual records for each puppy). Non-family visitors will NOT be invited to socialize with the puppies until they are at least 5 weeks old (good breeders know that early social visits by strangers is risky for the puppies and can be VERY stressful for the bitch!). After the pups are 5 weeks old, visitors should be asked to come directly from home, wearing clean clothing, and will likely be asked to remove their shoes and wash their hands and faces before entering the whelping area.

11) Responsible breeders will compare and contrast the puppies' temperaments, often including information gained from standardized puppy tests, and THEY will choose the puppy that is best for your family and your environment (rather than inviting you to come and pick your puppy based on emotions!). Their placement decisions will be based on their vast knowledge of the breed, their knowledge about each individual puppy, and the things they have learned about your family throughout the application process. Responsible breeders WILL NOT let the puppies go to their new homes before 8 or 9 weeks of age!!!

12) They'll insist on communication and follow-up before, during, and after you've adopted your new golden baby - making sure that all is well throughout the life of the puppy they've produced. They'll provide you with detailed information regarding feeding, grooming, vaccinations, and training, and will ask that you ask questions and provide feedback as you go along. They're door will ALWAYS be open to you and your dog!!

13) And finally, responsible, concerned breeders will be involved in breed rescue. They should be able to talk about their local breed rescue group knowledgeably, and should be able to direct you to learning more about rescued goldens as an option in finding a new family member. Concerned breeders are concerned enough about their breed, that they choose to be involved in rescue; helping unfortunate dogs find new, loving homes, helping to educate irresponsible breeders about responsible breeding practices, and helping to educate the public about responsible pet ownership. If they don't rescue, they shouldn't breed... period!

Sorry to say,but you will NOT find a BYB falling into this catagory.

lil_kirk
January 7th, 2005, 09:59 AM
Well put Mona_B!

Daisy's Owner
January 7th, 2005, 10:02 AM
I'm kind of curious. I'm new to dogs and new to this forum, so I am definitely lacking in knowledge. HA! I guess if I knew everything about dogs, I wouldn't need to come to a forum for advice and information.

Why is it ok to buy a purebred puppy from a registered breeder for $1500, but it isn't ok to buy a BYB pup for $50? Both situations contribute to the overpopulation of dogs, which is what most people here seem to be so strongly against.

mastifflover
January 7th, 2005, 10:08 AM
Glad to see you back Heeler and Lil Kirk I agree with you. Winnie has learned from her mistakes and as hopefully we all do everyday. She is good hearted and cares about these animals deeply, so lets just end this there is no need to keep rehashing the same things over and over again.

mona_b
January 7th, 2005, 10:17 AM
Hello

I've been following these threads with interest. Before I even came on this forum, I already had a good idea of how you should get new pets: rescue (or humane society) or a good breeder. My definition of a good breeder seems to include something I don't see many people mention: working titles. Conformation titles are all well and good but I don't think they are sufficient. What do I mean by working titles? My definition is large. Anything from basic obedience to shutzhund to agility to herding, etc. It really depends on the breed of dog and the interest of the breeder. But I think it's important because it proves your well-bred dog is also a dog who has parents who have proven they can learn. Any comments on that?

These titles are also important.I know of Lab breeders who not only show,but do have field titles.My dogs Sire and pedigree come from a long line of SchH III titles.And are Law Enforcement Dog.My GSD is a retired Police Dog who worked with my brother.He is also SchH III titled.The only way they can become SchH III titled is they have to pass SchH I and Sch II.He is of the perfect standard of the GSD breed.

mona_b
January 7th, 2005, 10:18 AM
Oops,don't know what happened there.......LOL

lil_kirk
January 7th, 2005, 10:18 AM
It's all about learning...she's learning, we're learning, and with any luck we can all help others learn about what's right and wrong in the doggie world :)

Daisy's Owner:

Reputable breeders who show their dogs typically only breed when they want another dog to show in competitions. They also breed their dogs by mating their bitch with other champion dogs--some take their dogs to far away places just to have it bred to another incredible example of the breed.

Backyard breeders pose problems because they mate any two dogs they feel like. They do not ensure that the parents have been tested for their hips, eyes, etc...which can lead to health problems in rarer breeds down the line. They also tend not to be too concerned with temperment when breeding.

Personally, the only dogs I have been around are from these BYB's. Though I realize that this is not advocated on this board, or very much at all in the dog world---I must say that these dogs were no less loved because of their spotty history. The key is not to encourage backyard breeding by buying puppies from places that breed dogs solely for the money. Spending 1200 to buy a pug from a BYB (that's what it costs) is simply not acceptable when you can buy a purebred pug from a reputable breeder for around 1300 dollars.

LL1
January 7th, 2005, 10:20 AM
No need to be sorry.

Your post is true, I'd have some more things I would look for, but that's me.

Selling CKC registered pups and being in the show circuit is NO guarantee of them not being a BYB. That's the point I have been trying, and trying, to make.


Sorry to say,but you will NOT find a BYB falling into this catagory.

DogueLover
January 7th, 2005, 10:37 AM
It is really unfortunate that sometimes you would not know that the dog came from a BYB............ I`ve seen puppy mill pups that came with registration papers and the breeders were CKC Members.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is that most people when looking for a dog wouldn`t have the first clue as to what to ask a "breeder" to find out if they are reputable.

I`ve posted about the woman from Northern Alberta who is breeding Dogue De Bordeauxs and sent some information to a member on this board who is very involved in CKC so that she can check out the operation.

This woman has made EVERYTHING look almost too perfect when it comes to her dogs............. only has Titled dogs, shows these dogs in Europe, and on her website all looks so wonderful. As I have a Bordeaux and because I am always looking for reputable breeders so that I know where I can get another one when the time comes, I called her and that is when "the rest of the story" came out. I was angry. This woman has painted herself as a reputable breeder, with all the criteria met for her to be on a list of "responsible breeders" . However, what she told me about her plans for breeding and what her "puppy money" was going to be used for there were so many red flags popping up I could barely believe what she was telling me.

Yes she has Titled Dogs, yes she shows her dogs in Europe, yes she has them living with her in her home, and she tells you a lot about their background and guarantees health and temperment. You have to be put on a waiting list, etc etc etc.

The thing that got me is when she told me that she has two upcoming litters, with 13 puppies each( verified by ultrasound) and she is jus sooo happy because when she "sells all the pups she will be able to buy her ARABIAN STALLION!!"
She says her dogs are going to pay for the horses she wants and they are all "imported" and the "best good money can buy".

Now, the reason this made me so angry is that she is not breeding to better the breed, she is breeding so she can have enough money to buy her beloved horses. She will sell to anyone, and as many pups as your checkbook will afford. She does not tell you that you are on a non breeding contract because she obviously does not care. She is, to me, a BYB with a really good cover.

I spoke to other Bordeaux breeders who also will sell puppies without putting you on a non breeding contract. These people also have Titled dogs that they show.................... I think you have to be very careful when looking for your pet and be very selective with the breeder you choose. I have learned that sometimes everything is not as it seems and if it sounds too good to be true,,,,,,,,,,,,, it probably is.

mona_b
January 7th, 2005, 10:40 AM
No need to be sorry.

Your post is true, I'd have some more things I would look for, but that's me.

Selling CKC registered pups and being in the show circuit is NO guarantee of them not being a BYB. That's the point I have been trying, and trying, to make.

Keep tying to make that point.

BYB's are not breeding for show.That is just the facts.They are breeding for the hell of it and money.They know nothing about showing.And they are not interested.BYB's don't know the lineage of pedigrees.And when you buy from a BYB,they do NOT give you pedigree papers.Pedigree papers are VERY important.

LL1
January 7th, 2005, 10:46 AM
I disagree Mona - some do show and yes some do give papers. Papers mean nothing about the breeder, they mean the dog is registered as a purebred.
Keep tying to make that point.

BYB's are not breeding for show.That is just the facts.They are breeding for the hell of it and money.They know nothing about showing.And they are not interested.BYB's don't know the lineage of pedigrees.And when you buy from a BYB,they do NOT give you pedigree papers.Pedigree papers are VERY important.

mona_b
January 7th, 2005, 10:55 AM
I'm refuring to the Pedigree papers not the registration papers...There's a big difference.

Also,you keep saying how you are in rescue.What rescue are you with?

LL1
January 7th, 2005, 10:56 AM
Pedigree papers show the lineage - registration papers show the dog is purebred.

I prefer not to name my rescue. Get involved in rescue Mona, and you will learn the dark side of some breeders.

mona_b
January 7th, 2005, 11:03 AM
That's right,it shows the lineage.That's important.

Why would you not want to name your rescue?No one on here that does rescue would refuse to name it.

You know what,I would love to do rescue.But with the line of work and hours I can't commit to it.I work 12 hours if not more and do shift work.I don't see my family enough as it is.I'm not going to get into something I can't give 100% to.

LL1
January 7th, 2005, 11:06 AM
I like being anonymous, like most other people here.

Any help with rescue is always appreciated. Most of us work and have families.

mona_b
January 7th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Like I said,in my line of work I don't see my family as it is.
And family is very important to me.... :)

Heck,I don't even see my furbabies that much either.

whinnie-boo
January 7th, 2005, 11:34 AM
LL1

Who is being anonomyus? Whats the point of being here, if it is not helping save the animals, you claim to be working in rescue with. You pry into these threads and voice your opinion, ask questions from others and expect their answers, but don't want to say who you work with? You'd think that you'd want to advertise your organization in hopes that you would recieve the same references, help and support that rescues like LUCKY'S gets (sorry to centre you out LUCKY, I mean well). I'm almost certain that Lucky would say that she has recieved a ton of support & references from members of this board, and I'm beyond certain you could find posts where people have been told to go to Lucky for help with their search (I myself have done it) All her new Rescues get posted and most adopted, all her outside adoption days get advertised...I'd think if you were with a reputable rescue, you'd advertise and use every resource posssible to help these animals......

Obviously, someone is going to disagree, but, does anyone agree this seems a little shady??????????????????????

Lucky Rescue
January 7th, 2005, 11:39 AM
Why is it ok to buy a purebred puppy from a registered breeder for $1500, but it isn't ok to buy a BYB pup for $50? Both situations contribute to the overpopulation of dogs, which is what most people here seem to be so strongly against

It's not okay to buy or sell purebred puppies for 1500$ if the parents have not been championed and titled (in conformation and/or performance) and health tested and cleared of any genetic defects common to that breed. Anyone who does not do these things is not ethical and is a backyard breeder no matter how much they charge.

Personally I don't think anyone should be breeding until the shelters are empty and the slaughter stops, but that's not going to happen.

BMDLuver
January 7th, 2005, 11:48 AM
Not everyone wishes to be known on message boards. This is the reason that many rescues have p.o. boxes for mailing, block phone numbers to avoid reverse searching and even have phone listings in completely different cities. Why, because some of us do not wish to wake up in the morning and find an animal has been placed in a box or tied to a balcony in the middle of the night. We also do not wish to receive phone calls at 2am saying that someone found a stray cat and could we come over to pick it up or a stray dog is in their backyard. Before we were able to be organized enough to have some of these things in place, it was not uncommon for us to receive middle of the night calls for these reasons. There's a lot to be said for anonymity.LL1

Who is being anonomyus? Whats the point of being here, if it is not helping save the animals, you claim to be working in rescue with. You pry into these threads and voice your opinion, ask questions from others and expect their answers, but don't want to say who you work with? You'd think that you'd want to advertise your organization in hopes that you would recieve the same references, help and support that rescues like LUCKY'S gets (sorry to centre you out LUCKY, I mean well). I'm almost certain that Lucky would say that she has recieved a ton of support & references from members of this board, and I'm beyond certain you could find posts where people have been told to go to Lucky for help with their search (I myself have done it) All her new Rescues get posted and most adopted, all her outside adoption days get advertised...I'd think if you were with a reputable rescue, you'd advertise and use every resource posssible to help these animals......

Obviously, someone is going to disagree, but, does anyone agree this seems a little shady??????????????????????

whinnie-boo
January 7th, 2005, 11:55 AM
Like I said, I was just wondering BMD....

I just thought that you'd want to advertise your organization to help place the animals you have looking for forever homes. I do not work in rescue, I simply help where I can, to the best of my ability. I was just thinking this is a great resource, as is word of mouth....every little bit helps!!

LL1
January 7th, 2005, 11:56 AM
Thanks BMD Luver - I agree there is alot to be said for being anonymous.

I come here to be on the message board Whinnie - and participate in discussions, not to advertise my rescue. Several members here know who I am and about my rescue. I get plenty of advertising for my rescue.

Cinnabear
January 7th, 2005, 01:55 PM
Aren't designer breeds cats considered byb too?

Schwinn
January 7th, 2005, 02:58 PM
This seems to be after the fact (have we finally moved on? Time for ice cream? ;) ), but I'd still like to say this--

It isn't fair to call Whinnie a breeder, but I also don't think it's fair to go on about how she "learned from her mistakes". I'm not sure she really made that many, if any. I still think the fact that she didn't abort her pups is more about her personal values than whether she made a mistake. And she has now got the dogs spayed, whereas she felt earlier that wasn't feasible. As for the people who got the pups, my understanding is she knew them all. Depending on how well I knew the people I was giving them too, I would probably also be hesitant to make them sign paperwork. Not only that, since I wasn't in a position to foster a litter of pups, I'd probably be more concerned with getting them to a good home (like the OSPCA) AND making sure I wasn't struggling longer than I had to. And the fact is she didn't take the dog until it was now or never, because she wasn't fully prepared yet. And I'm going to apologize in advance, because I've a good feeling this will re-ignite the flames, but I don't think it's right the way a lot of people are either raking her over the coals, or patronizing her. There was no "lesson" to be learned here, except maybe be very careful what you tell people. Props to her for doing what she felt was right, end of story.

As for BYB, I still don't by the "they are all evil" arguement. I'm sure there are plenty of them who love thier animals, and the ones they sell. I really don't think it'd be any different than if I decided to open a bike shop, because I love bikes (okay, except we don't have much issue with homeless bikes, except in creeks for some reason). They love dogs, so they wanted to make a living doing what they love. I'm sure there are some very responsible breeders (in the health care for thier pets). I still think that there seems to be a general view that the main difference between a BYB and a "good" breeder is the designaton on thier paper. Although a puppy mill is a BYB, a BYB is not always a puppy mill. You can argue about responsibility for pet over-population if you want, but I don't think you can generalise that because someone isn't part of some sanctioned body, they are evil.

whinnie-boo
January 7th, 2005, 04:42 PM
Schwinn,

I could spend all day talking to you and afew others on this board, no worries about anything, people are entitled to their opinions. I'm just glad so took the time to understand me. Plus, I've made some great friends because of that thread. :crazy: :p :thumbs up

heeler's rock!
January 8th, 2005, 11:41 AM
Glad to see you back Heeler and Lil Kirk

Thanks mastiff. :)

I've been hanging around in the shadows, just reading, not really posting too much.

I don't know why people are being so harsh towards whinnie......It's not like she's planning on breeding her dogs again, and the first time wasn't even "breeding"! Accidents happen, and mistakes are made. Why can't people lay off, and try and be a little more understanding? She's doing the best she can, and will continue to do the best she can for her pups. Good for you Whinnie-boo!! :grouphug: *Hey, that rhymes!* :D

Lucky Rescue
January 8th, 2005, 12:29 PM
As for BYB, I still don't by the "they are all evil" arguement. I'm sure there are plenty of them who love thier animals, and the ones they sell. I really don't think it'd be any different than if I decided to open a bike shop, because I love bikes (okay, except we don't have much issue with homeless bikes, except in creeks for some reason).
You aren't really comparing inanimate objects with living, feeling creatures are you? Animals are not merchandise and the people who see them as such are the problem. Bikes or dogs - what's the difference as long as money is to be made?

They love dogs, so they wanted to make a living doing what they love.
If they loved dogs so much, shouldn't they care more about the millions who are put to death and dumped each year, and find another way to pay the bills - maybe by their OWN labour?

I'm sure there are some very responsible breeders (in the health care for thier pets). I still think that there seems to be a general view that the main difference between a BYB and a "good" breeder is the designaton on thier paper. Although a puppy mill is a BYB, a BYB is not always a puppy mill. You can argue about responsibility for pet over-population if you want, but I don't think you can generalise that because someone isn't part of some sanctioned body, they are evil.

Sanctioned bodies have nothing to do with it. The needless deaths of millions of innocent animals is the reason people should not be breeding. Those deaths have nothing to do with papers, and everything to do with overpopulation and irresponsibility. Many "papered" dogs are in shelters and are killed and these BYBing "dog lovers" are the ones responsible for it. It's just a fact.

CyberKitten
January 8th, 2005, 01:24 PM
Re: Aren't designer breeds cats considered byb too? I am not entirely sure what your question is here - what is for example, a designer cat. Do you mean purebred cats like my Yin Yin, - who are NOT designer cats - (though there has been genetic tampeing with some of the newer colours of the Siamese and it is not without some controversy that the newer ones like flamepoint have been accepted and are not accepted by every club and competition)?

There are kitten mills that crank out purebreds like ragdolls, Persians and Siamese and others. Most of them turn up in pet stores, are advertised in the newspaper classifieds and in other ways. They are as bad as puppy mills are are BYB certainly! If you want a purebred kitten, your best bet is a rescue or a reputable breeder and I define a reputable breeder as one who breeds for the love of the breed and where you can visit and meet the parents, see the kittens in their melieu, and the breeder has the standard kind of contract that insists on neutering/spaying, no declawing, provides the kitten with his or her first vaccinations BEFORE you buy. Even though this route is more expensive (tho usually about the same price as a pet store), it is safer than buying from a pet store where you nothing of the parents, the socialization of the kitten, there is no contract save a sales receipt, and worse you support horrible creatures known as BYB.

You can also go to the many rescues for purebred cats.

And here is my brief opinion on a few of the other points raised in this thread:

-No one is anonymous on the internet. Your IP number is easily found. We use "handles" here but many of us know our real names and phone numbers. I work in a profession where I am one of only a few where I live so I am pretty easy to find and I do not consider myself all that anonymous. (On a personal note last nite I was at a grocery store and someone came up and hugged me. She was the aunt of a child who'd been a patient of mine and wanted to thank me. I thought after that in a larger city, one would have been afraid to have been approached by a stanger in that way. The clerk knew who I was too. I have long since given up the pretense of privacy, lol) And yes, it works to my advantage. I do not need to advertize my practice now but of I was in Rescue (er animal Rescue - I do work in Rescue come to think of it :) ) like Lucky and LL1, I would certainly advertize my Rescue organization. Anonymity would not be all that helpful.

Winnie, I understand how you feel I think (I too have made some mistakes over the years with my animals and have learned from them.) I just do not understand why one would laugh at being a BYB - perhaps I am too serious for my own good (my friends tell me I can be that way on occasion but well, I work in a VERY serious biz I think - but I don;t think it's funny ) So why start the whole thread again - this debate I mean. We need to move on, all of us!

Have a great day!

Schwinn
January 8th, 2005, 02:08 PM
You aren't really comparing inanimate objects with living, feeling creatures are you? Animals are not merchandise and the people who see them as such are the problem. Bikes or dogs - what's the difference as long as money is to be made?


No, of course not. And you're right, people who see animals as merchandise only are the problem. My point was the motive that some people get into BYB. It isn't for the sole purpose of making money. I can go work at a factory and make more money than a BYB at $25 an hour. We are always told that if you combine what you love with your work, you will never be unhappy in your job again. Again, I'm not trying to argue in favour of BYB, only against this notion that anyone who is a BYB is evil. Myself, I wouldn't buy from a pet store as long as the shelters are over-flowing, so obviously I don't support BYBs. There are lots of BYBs who are in it only for the money (and they usually are, or become, puppy mills). But I think it's a valid arguement that there are some who felt they love dogs, and they might try making a living working with those animals. Again, I'm not arguing the point of right or wrong, just the point that there are some who may start out with noble intentions. Misguided, uneducated (about breeding), whatever. These can all be argued. And personally, I don't think you should start out and learn by "trial and error" with animals. And I think anyone who does is probably pretty foolish. The only reason I even bring up this point is because it does seem people are quick to latch on to anyone they even REMOTELY suspect of BYB and attack them. Then I see people who talk about irrisponsibility of the BYB when there are already dogs in shelters needing good homes, yet think nothing of a registered breeders introducing new animals into the population. I think if you have to understand someone and thier motivations before you can condemn them, and I see a lot of examples where that is not happening on here, and I think it is only detrimental to our little community here. And by jumping to conclusions and attacking people without understanding thier motivation (which is entirely different from agreeing with it), only gets people's defenses up and the best you can hope for at that time is a stale-mate.

LL1
January 8th, 2005, 02:08 PM
I agree - you're right - and I do - just not on this bulletin board. Several people who are members here know me and my rescue. Like most members I choose not to use my real name here.
I do not need to advertize my practice now but of I was in Rescue (er animal Rescue - I do work in Rescue come to think of it :) ) like Lucky and LL1, I would certainly advertize my Rescue organization. Anonymity would not be all that helpful.

Lucky Rescue
January 8th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Again, I'm not trying to argue in favour of BYB, only against this notion that anyone who is a BYB is evil.

I don't think anyone used the word "evil". Maybe ignorant and/or uncaring and/or irresponsible would be better, but not much. With 103,706 homeless dogs on Petfinder alone, does it really matter what we call these people when this is the result of their breeding for love, money, or whatever reason? I don't really care what their motivation is and understanding it is not going to stop the killing and the dumping which have nothing to do with "love".

I love all dogs, and I love MY dog and pit bulls in general. I show this love of the breed and of my dog by being responsible,having her spayed and not adding to the overpopulation, but that's just me. :D

Schwinn
January 8th, 2005, 02:36 PM
I don't think anyone used the word "evil". Maybe ignorant and/or uncaring and/or irresponsible would be better, but not much. With 103,706 homeless dogs on Petfinder alone, does it really matter what we call these people when this is the result of their breeding for love, money, or whatever reason? I don't really care what their motivation is and understanding it is not going to stop the killing and the dumping which have nothing to do with "love".

I love all dogs, and I love MY dog and pit bulls in general. I show this love of the breed and of my dog by being responsible,having her spayed and not adding to the overpopulation, but that's just me. :D

You're right, no one has used the word evil, but that's been the attitude that's come across. And it does really matter what we call these people if we are going to make a difference. Every dog I or my family has had has been spayed shortly after we have gotten them, and I agree, that is the responsible thing to do. And every person who has told me they wanted to get a dog, I have tried to steer them towards shelters. Trust me, we are in agreement on those issues. But when we start calling people BYBs and treating them like the scourge of the earth, we only turn people away. It's tough to create change if we don't reach those who we need to affect the most. I also think we reduce our own stress level when we understand the other side. Like I said, we can understand without agreeing.

DogueLover
January 8th, 2005, 02:39 PM
I know that you are very active in rescue work and I commend you on it.... I helped out with Rottweiller rescue in Southern Alberta when I lived out there and it is very sad to see all the animals that do not find homes.

I only have one question.......... and that is ......... you don`t really think that the animals in shelters ALL come from BYB`s do you?

My personal feelings are that it is the OWNERS who dump these animals that are responsible for them being in the shelters in the first place. A lot of times, even with a contract signed, animals from reputable breeders end up in shelters and no one would know exactly where they came from.

I don`t agree that all breeding should be stopped until all the animals in shelters are placed in loving homes, only because I know that no matter what happens.......... there is no way that will ever happen. I had a cocker spaniel that I got from a shelter once and was given his registration papers when I adopted him. I called the breeder to let her know that I had one of her pups and where I had gotten him from and she was completely dumbfounded. She had no idea where the dog had ended up and the original owner had signed a contract with her to return the dog to her in the event that he couldn`t keep the dog anymore for any reason.

This is just one example of how a responsible breeder ended up with an owner that didn`t follow the contract and the breeder had no idea. I wonder how many others in the shelters are just like that pup. People don`t always follow the right path when it comes to their pets, and I would be curious to find out how many times this same thing happens, we all know that you don`t always get the whole story from an owner surrendering a dog, and how do you determine where the "strays" originally came from?

I am not trying to start an arguement here, I am just curious, Is is not feesable to entertain the idea that some of the dogs in the shelters DID originally come from responsible breeders ( not BYB) and their owners for what ever reason didn`t follow the contract they signed? :confused:

LL1
January 8th, 2005, 02:44 PM
If by reputable breeders you mean those that breed CKC registered dogs (and I know the two don't always go together unfortunately) CKC dogs have to be microchipped or tattooed so the breeder and owner can almost always be traced, except sometimes with really bad tattoos that have faded etc. And being able to trace the owner or breeder doesn't mean they will take the dog back unfortunately.
I A lot of times, even with a contract signed, animals from reputable breeders end up in shelters and no one would know exactly where they came from.

Is is not feesable to entertain the idea that some of the dogs in the shelters DID originally come from responsible breeders ( not BYB) and their owners for what ever reason didn`t follow the contract they signed? :confused:

mona_b
January 8th, 2005, 02:57 PM
LL1

Who is being anonomyus? Whats the point of being here, if it is not helping save the animals, you claim to be working in rescue with. You pry into these threads and voice your opinion, ask questions from others and expect their answers, but don't want to say who you work with? You'd think that you'd want to advertise your organization in hopes that you would recieve the same references, help and support that rescues like LUCKY'S gets (sorry to centre you out LUCKY, I mean well). I'm almost certain that Lucky would say that she has recieved a ton of support & references from members of this board, and I'm beyond certain you could find posts where people have been told to go to Lucky for help with their search (I myself have done it) All her new Rescues get posted and most adopted, all her outside adoption days get advertised...I'd think if you were with a reputable rescue, you'd advertise and use every resource posssible to help these animals......

Obviously, someone is going to disagree, but, does anyone agree this seems a little shady??????????????????????

I have to agree on this.Not really the shady part,but what you have said.

Lucky Rescue
January 8th, 2005, 03:19 PM
My personal feelings are that it is the OWNERS who dump these animals that are responsible for them being in the shelters in the first place

Of course, but all those dogs being dumped by owners were bred by somebody, either deliberately, negligently, irresponsibly or ignorantly - no? It has to one of those things and none are good.

Breeders who don't care if their dogs end up euthed in shelters and won't take them back are certainly not reputable, no matter if their dogs are registered or champions.

Off topic: If LL1, or anyone here, prefers to remain anonymous (as most of us are) I have no problem with that. This person is not peddling puppies here or trying to dump animals "free to a good home" here or posting anything inappropriate/against board rules.

Rescuers are not obliged to name their organization and I can certainly understand why some may not wish to as personal differences may cause some people to bash that rescue and the only losers are the animals.

Schwinn
January 8th, 2005, 03:34 PM
Of course, but all those dogs being dumped by owners were bred by somebody, either deliberately, negligently, irresponsibly or ignorantly - no? It has to one of those things and none are good.



And I'm just asking, but does this mean you are against any breeding of animals (as long as there are dogs in the shelter that need our help)?

Off topic: If LL1, or anyone here, prefers to remain anonymous (as most of us are) I have no problem with that. This person is not peddling puppies here or trying to dump animals "free to a good home" here or posting anything inappropriate/against board rules.

Rescuers are not obliged to name their organization and I can certainly understand why some may not wish to as personal differences may cause some people to bash that rescue and the only losers are the animals.

I agree. Sometimes people want to come on here and be able to say whatever they want (good or bad) without it reflecting on thier organisation. It's like anything else, when it becomes known who you are or what you do, you suddenly may have to "watch what you say" because, intentionally or not, you're representing your organisation. It's like if someone is a cop. If no one knows, and he kicks his dog, or hits his wife, he's just the "jerk down the street". Or even if they think he works for IBM, or some bank. But if they know he's a cop, he becomes the "idiot cop down the street".

mona_b
January 8th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Pedigree papers show the lineage - registration papers show the dog is purebred.



Ummmmmmmm,I know that.

LL1
January 8th, 2005, 04:18 PM
I agree - maybe when you make the point people will get it. :)

Breeders who don't care if their dogs end up euthed in shelters and won't take them back are certainly not reputable, no matter if their dogs are registered or champions.

LL1
January 8th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Thanks Schwinn - that's another good reason. I like to say what I think just as much as everyone else, and some people don't like it.


I agree. Sometimes people want to come on here and be able to say whatever they want (good or bad) without it reflecting on thier organisation. It's like anything else, when it becomes known who you are or what you do, you suddenly may have to "watch what you say" because, intentionally or not, you're representing your organisation. It's like if someone is a cop. If no one knows, and he kicks his dog, or hits his wife, he's just the "jerk down the street". Or even if they think he works for IBM, or some bank. But if they know he's a cop, he becomes the "idiot cop down the street".

Lucky Rescue
January 8th, 2005, 07:20 PM
And I'm just asking, but does this mean you are against any breeding of animals (as long as there are dogs in the shelter that need our help

Generally speaking, yes I am. I just don't see the need for producing more dogs or cats ONLY for the pet trade when there aren't a fraction of the homes needed for the ones who are here already.

There are dogs of every breed, size, age and description homeless (even "rare" breeds are showing up with more frequency) and a large number of them are condemned to death for the crime of being unwanted.

I think pumping out more puppies in the face of these sad statistics is scandalous and I just don't get it. Many of the byb puppies churned out to satisfy the latest "fad" breed craving will be dumped anyway before they are a year old. The answer? Breed more - at least someone is profiting, and it sure isn't the dogs (or cats).:(

Daisy's Owner
January 9th, 2005, 12:17 AM
Generally speaking, yes I am. ... Many of the byb puppies churned out to satisfy the latest "fad" breed craving will be dumped anyway before they are a year old. The answer? Breed more - at least someone is profiting, and it sure isn't the dogs (or cats).:(

See. This is what I don't understand. Maybe I am missing it. Don't get me wrong, I wish I knew then, what I know now, but unfortunately the media is too hyped on picking on "pitbull types" than a bigger issue, which is that there are homeless dogs out there being PTS be it purebred or mutt.

You keep saying there are dogs in shelters, but you keep saying byb byb. It seems to me, that breeders be they reputable or not are causing this problem. Any moron with some common people sense and $1500 can buy a puppy from a "reputable" breeder, and when they get tired of it, send it to a shelter for someone else because it is too much trouble.

Here is Whinnie trying to do what she can to do right by these puppies, and you are harping on her, but when someone says they spent $1500 for a purebred registered puppy, nobody seems to have a problem with it.

Really! Where is the logic in that?

PS: Please don't slam me too hard because I really really like coming here.

LavenderRott
January 9th, 2005, 12:34 AM
There are many "reputable" breeders out there who care no more about the puppies they produce then your average puppy mill.

A "responsible" breeder is a whole other story. All of the breeders I know that I consider responsible (and there are only a couple) are harder to get puppies from then it is to adopt a child. They can tell you, on any given day, where 99.9% of the puppies they have produced are, and they have taken back and rehomed dogs that couldn't be kept by the original purchaser for whatever reason.

I am completely unimpressed by anyone's $1500 purebred, registered dog. Have you looked online lately? You can spend that easily at any online puppymill sight. There is way more to finding the right pup from a good source then a high price and a piece of paper.

Daisy's Owner
January 9th, 2005, 01:03 AM
Sorry, maybe I should have clarified I little better.

It doesn't matter what the price. A reputable or a responsible breeder would still be contributing to the problem because they are bringing puppies into this world when there are loving adoptable homeless puppies at the shelters.

Bugsy
January 9th, 2005, 01:07 AM
Sorry, maybe I should have clarified I little better.

It doesn't matter what the price. A reputable or a responsible breeder would still be contributing to the problem because they are bringing puppies into this world when there are loving adoptable homeless puppies at the shelters.

Generally speaking, yes I am. I just don't see the need for producing more dogs or cats ONLY for the pet trade when there aren't a fraction of the homes needed for the ones who are here already.


Okay, it may just be me.... but how are the opinions in these 2 quotes different :confused:

.

LL1
January 9th, 2005, 01:11 AM
Lucky has actually been really clear on this. I use reputable (which means honorable) as the same term as responsible personally.

She has said "Breeders who don't care if their dogs end up euthed in shelters and won't take them back are certainly not reputable, no matter if their dogs are registered or champions." Those who are not in the know seem to think that selling CKC reg dogs and showing dogs mean they are reputable/responsible breeders. That's not true. They are people producing CKC/AKC registered dogs and in the show world, who many think are great, but they are really BYBs. Any breeder that is a member of the CKC and sells CKC registered dogs is required to chip or tattoo the dog. That doesn't stop an owner from dumping the dog in a shelter, with or without breeder knowledge. But what the breeder then does is key, on top of all kinds of other things of course. That's why people are trying to say just because someone sells CKC reg dogs, and in some cases are big in the show world, does not mean they are reputable or responsible. Price tag and papers and pedigrees and show champs does not speak to whether a breeder is good or not, sorry if this is unclear or not coming through properly.



You keep saying there are dogs in shelters, but you keep saying byb byb. It seems to me, that breeders be they reputable or not are causing this problem. Any moron with some common people sense and $1500 can buy a puppy from a "reputable" breeder, and when they get tired of it, send it to a shelter for someone else because it is too much trouble.

Here is Whinnie trying to do what she can to do right by these puppies, and you are harping on her, but when someone says they spent $1500 for a purebred registered puppy, nobody seems to have a problem with it.

LavenderRott
January 9th, 2005, 09:09 AM
Sorry, maybe I should have clarified I little better.

It doesn't matter what the price. A reputable or a responsible breeder would still be contributing to the problem because they are bringing puppies into this world when there are loving adoptable homeless puppies at the shelters.

Well, there is no way around the fact that there are people out there who absolutely won't, no matter what, take someone's damaged, problem dog. (Not my thoughts, theirs.) They want a purebred dog with papers. And the more they pay for it, the happier they are. Because we all know that in the retail world, the more you pay, the better the quality.

Puppy mills breed a bitch everytime she comes into season. I have read cases where the bitches are given hormones to make them come into season sooner after delivering a litter so that they can have 3 litters a year instead of 2. I have read about a 16 year old blind bitch that couldn't walk giving birth to a litter after a puppymill raid in the States. There is minimal health care for these dogs with c-sections often being done by the "breeder" instead of a vet to save money. They are fed the cheapest food possible and aren't even guaranteed to get it every day.

Byb's are not much better. If they make enough money off the first litter, they will continue to breed 2 times a year to make as much as possible. Health care isn't much better here.

Responsible breeders breed to improve or continue their lines. They often breed only once a year and maybe once every other year. Dogs get the best health care possible, including testing for genetic diseases. Pedigrees are studied so that genetics are known and temperments are proper for the breed. It is the responsible breeder that keeps the breeds that we know at their best.

While stopping all breeding for a period of time may solve the homeless animal issue, it would also be an end to most of the larger breeds. The bigger the dog, sorry to say, the shorter the lifespan. To say that no one can breed dogs for say, 10 years, would be an end to most of your large breeds. Rottweilers, Great Danes, German Shepherds, Dogues, and the rest of your giant breeds would be lost to us forever. Well, not true. The people who don't care about the laws and anything else would probably still breed.

CyberKitten
January 9th, 2005, 12:50 PM
I did not plan to add to this thread but someone needs to point out and I guess it's me and I am NOT a breeder but the PRIMARY motivation of reputable breeders is to improve the breed - especially if they have a show dog who has become a champion. That would be the ONLY kind of dog bred by them. And it might not vost $1500 - and it is not about cost anyway. Some purebred dogs costs less at a reputable breeder because it is not about money for breeders - it is about the breed.

It is different than a byb who just contributes to overpopulation!

A byb sells the dog/cat and that's it!! They make money.

A breeder puts his or her heart and soul into the breeding - participating in shows, spending a small fortune on medical and other bills - money they never recoup - and if they do sell puppies, there is a contract that specifies if the new "owner" (I abhor the concept of a human "owning" a companion animal but that's me) must return the animal to the breeder. Typically, they follow up on their puppies and mny provide manuals and explain about shows to the "purchaser".

In my case, Yin Yin's mother's humans and I share pictures and emails - so they know how she is doing. They've encouraged me to enter her - because she is a show cat and not just "pet quality" - but it is something I balk at but it might be fun to attend one and see what it's like before I condemn them all outright - have an open mind. (Yin Yin has an even temperment, described by my friends and neighbours as "a friendly cat" and she does not mind being handled so she might make a good show cat but the prospect is still SO unlikely!!

Anyway, that's how I see it differently. Of course there are exceptions to every rule and not all reputable breeders are equal either. It is up to the dog lover to be beware I guess - (and strengthen legislation that protect animals)

Lucky Rescue
January 9th, 2005, 02:05 PM
Daisy's Owner - nowhere am I bashing anyone and never did I say that if someone buys a 1500$ puppy that I have no problem with it. Puppies from mills can easily cost 1500$ in a pet store and be registered. Both cost and registration mean exactly nothing. Few people will take the time to educate themselves when they see a cute little fluff ball begging to come home with them, which is what petstores count on.

I"m merely saying that if people continue to breed - and they WILL - the very least they should do is to try and be ethical about it. I realize that someone who wants a 12 week old Maltese puppy is never going to find one in rescue or a shelter, and probably must go to a breeder.

Finding a truly reputable, responsible and ethical breeder - one who titles and health tests breeding dogs, takes back any unwanted puppies sold at any time in the dog's life, breeds ONLY when he/she needs a new dog of that line for showing, and who participates in rescue of that breed - is like finding a needle in a haystack but it can be done.

Someone who gets two dogs from a newspaper ad, petstore, or puppy mill and starts pumping out back-to-back litters is NOT doing it for the love of dogs. Many people who want a particular breed want it right NOW and will not wait for a litter from an ethical breeder and will instead continue to finacially support the cruelty and abuses of mills.

LL1
January 9th, 2005, 02:34 PM
I agree 100%! And alot of people don't realize that, I am glad this board educates people about the reality.
Finding a truly reputable, responsible and ethical breeder - one who titles and health tests breeding dogs, takes back any unwanted puppies sold at any time in the dog's life, breeds ONLY when he/she needs a new dog of that line for showing, and who participates in rescue of that breed - is like finding a needle in a haystack but it can be done.

Daisy's Owner
January 9th, 2005, 08:04 PM
While stopping all breeding for a period of time may solve the homeless animal issue, it would also be an end to most of the larger breeds. The bigger the dog, sorry to say, the shorter the lifespan. To say that no one can breed dogs for say, 10 years, would be an end to most of your large breeds. Rottweilers, Great Danes, German Shepherds, Dogues, and the rest of your giant breeds would be lost to us forever.

Finding a truly reputable, responsible and ethical breeder - one who titles and health tests breeding dogs, takes back any unwanted puppies sold at any time in the dog's life, breeds ONLY when he/she needs a new dog of that line for showing, and who participates in rescue of that breed - is like finding a needle in a haystack but it can be done.


AHHH! Very good points. I'm really not trying to be a pain in the butt. Just trying to learn.

Thanks.

Copper'sMom
January 10th, 2005, 08:53 AM
I briefly scanned through this thread and all I can say is............................

Accidents happen and people learn from their mistakes. I don't believe that everyone who posts on this board(including myself) is a "perfect" pet owner. I am sure everyone has made a mistake at one time or another with their pets be it in raising, training, medical care or whatever. People learn from their experiences in life. We do live in the real world people, not a make believe world where everyone and everything is perfect. At least Whinnie can admit her faults and put up with the crap people give her. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and a healthy debate can be good but think of the mistakes you have made with your pet when posting to someone else's thread.

If we knew everything, why would we have to post on this board?

I bought my dog from a BYB and no I'm not proud of it. I wanted a dog sooo badly that when I saw the add in the paper I couldn't resist going to look at the pups. And of course how could I leave without taking one? I knew from the very beginning what kind of commitment it would be. I knew that I was taking a risk of not fully knowing the bloodlines of my dog which is a concern when owning one of the most powerful breed of dog. I didn't decide to get a dog at a spur of the moment. I put alot of thought into it. I thought about adopting a rescue(which u don't know what you'll get,it's the same as a BYB) And I do not regret my decision at all. I raised my baby to the best of my ability and he makes me very proud today. He will be 4 years old next month and its been the best 4 years of my life and time has flown by. It scares me to death knowing that his lifespan is almost half over because it still seems like I just got him yesterday.

Regardless of where I got him from, I got him for the right reasons. So if a person gets their dog from a BYB, or a pet store(puppy mill) if they got the dog for the right reason, this should account for something. We can't save the world, but we can save a life!

sammiec
January 10th, 2005, 10:34 AM
Sammiec if you cared enough to read all the posts you would have seen that when Whinnie was rescued ( more like dropped at her door) she was ALREADY Pregnant! OMGAWSH the ignorance of people sometimes completely amazes me...........
You're telling me! You sit here and write this huge nasty post without all the facts. Huh, I find that quite interesting. You actually don't know what your'e talking about.. I know all about Whinnie showing up pregnant. But if you read the posts you would have seen that I was refering to the fact that it was assumed that Boo was now pregnant. OMGosh the ignorance of some people amazes me sometimes... would you like a drink to wash down your foot?

When you say that a dog you rescued that was already pregnant........ and that accidents like that are preventable yeah sure........ had she been in her possession from the start I could say okay........but come on now are you really that narrow minded???? WOW, the name calling is sure bringing out our true intellegence hunnie. I guess you're mistaken again... I was referring to the fact that Whinnie came here with a statment saying that she had puppies to give to new homes because her other dog (BOO) was pregnant. Therefore, I was merely stating that she should have learned from when WHINNIE had puppies, no? Is that clear enough for you?

Since attacking Whinnie seems to be the idea here I am going to stand up and say that I have just about had it with the attitude that she was in the wrong. congratulations, can I mail your prize?

I am going to say this and probably be told off pretty good but what the heck........... why should this not be a total waste of time..........

There are things we can control in this life and there are things we cannot......... I understand completely how it feels to be the one there when a "rescue" is put down.......... and I know the heartbreak of not being able to place them Yet you choose not to have your dog fixed??? but for all of you on your soap boxes preaching about how ALL pets need to come from shelters and that no one should breed until all UNWANTED dogs have homes............ CHECK into REALITY! I am a realist and I know that no matter how much you preach, beg, and get into everyone`s face about this the problem is NOT going to go away! It is sad but that is the harsh reality of life. Not everyone is going to be a responsible owner, and you cannot make someone RESPONSIBLE.
Before I hand the soap box over to you, I'd just like to say one last thing... http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/mad/1106.gif
Many members here at Pets.ca are compassionate animal lovers. What some of us are trying to do is spread the AWARENESS that there IS SOMETHING that we - as responsible owners can do. When I first came here, I was not this passionate nor educated, but many people here have taught me the value of an animals life. They need us! If we can change even one person's mind about breeding a dog, or cat that's GREAT! I am extatic about that!
But there are people, that sit here and say, "well... it's okay it was an accident"... then 8 new puppies need homes... then the new owner isn't so educated and the puppy gets pregnant and oops - "it was an accident".... 8 more puppies need homes.... do you get the picture? I know, I know... that's not the case with Whinnie (the dog) because she was a rescue... BUT there was a scare that Boo was pregnant... that's what I am referring to. There would be no scare if proper actions were taken to prevent it... but then again there's no manoey available to do that. I know... I know... :rolleyes:

The millions of strays or unwanted pets that are put to sleep every year are not the fault of people like Whinnie............. so get off her back already! The problem is that there are always going to be people out there that are irresponsible........... and cruel............ and who don`t give a rats a$$ about the dog or other pet they have. It is a problem with HUMANS not PETS. I beg to differ. The problem is people like Whinnie. Not Whinnie per say... but people that have animals that are not fixed and are accidently let out and have puppies... then are still not spayed... yes... those people are to blame!!!

For anyone else who wants to take a swing at Whinnie let me tell you that I am standing there ready to defend her and the actions she has taken. Bring it on. I am not here to bash Whinnie. But yet again, you probably don't understand that. It's the people that are in similar situations as Whinnie and handle it differently that I am most concerned about. I am SURE there are others here that have had their pet "escape" can come home pregnant. It is avoidable!

Maybe instead of preaching how bad a person is before you start slamming them you should do your homework .............. if you had in this case you would have realized that the dog in question was a RESCUE dog that came to her that way......... and she chose to do what she thought was best( I am sure with the opinion of her vet as well). Pot calling the kettle back again.... I DID do my homework... maybe you should double check yours before handing it in.... you'd look like less of an ass.

DogueLover
January 10th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Sammiec,
I would like to see the post where Whinnie was looking for homes for puppies from Boo.............. if you can find it and post it for me that would be greatly appreciated.

My arguement in the whole post was over people jumping all over Whinnie over a joke between herself and me. I knew what her post about her byb pups was all about and I just don`t see why everyone had to get so fired up about it.

I don`t know all there is to know about pets, but my choices for my pet are mine to make. I did not make the decision about Angel on my own, it was on the advice of my vet and the fact that he refuses to take the chance of me losing her while under anesthetic. That does not mean that I have chosen NOT to get her spayed............. it simply means that I have to find a vet who is willing to do it.

You do not know me, nor my dog, nor do you ask anything about the situation. I was POed about what was being said about Whinnie, and I know how that feels as this is the second time it has happened to me by a member on this board who is here ONLY to educate.

Since you feel better by doing this good for you........... I can tell you that this is the exact attitude I have faced before and I don`t really care what your opinion of me or my situation is.

Like I said, when you find the post where Whinnie is asking for homes for Boo`s 8 puppies please feel free to post it.

In the meantime, I will choose to NOT be any part of this board. I came here for information and to meet people who care for their animals as I do. I have met a few people on this board that I will continue to have contact with but for the most part this has become a place I would rather NOT spend any more time at. So thanks to you and your attitude ANOTHER new member will bid this board farewell.

Hope you are happy. :thumbs up

Lucky Rescue
January 10th, 2005, 11:07 AM
If this discussion is to continue, it must do so in a civil way - no name calling or personal insults. Thank you!:)

I am a realist and I know that no matter how much you preach, beg, and get into everyone`s face about this the problem is NOT going to go away!

Yeah, I'm a realist too. You are absolutely right and people will continue to be ignorant, negligent, irresponsible, selfish and greedy. BUT each of us can do our part to ensure that WE are not contributing to the problem can't we?

Anyone here who has an intact animal who is not titled and tested is taking the chance of being yet another backyard breeder and adding to the problem and there is a VERY simple solution for that - get your animals spayed or neutered. No more worries and you can sleep at night knowing that you (meaning any of us) had no hand in the slaughter at the shelters! :)

sammiec
January 10th, 2005, 11:11 AM
whinnie-boo
Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Brampton
Posts: 296

My Female Is Having Puppies - Brampton

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello There,

I Believe My Female Is Pregnant, The Only Thing Is I Do Not Know If The Pups Are Purebred. My Husband And I Recently Seperated, And I Found Out Only 3 Days Ago That My Baby Is Expecting Babies Of Her Own. If You're Will To Love A Pit That May Or May Not Be Purebred Let Me Know And We'll Talk Some More. My Pits Are Both Female American Red-nosed Terriers, And I'm Hoping The Pups Will Be Too.

Hope That Helped. Best Of Luck, Just Keep In Mind That If Its A Pit You Want, You Sadly May Be Running Out Of Time. Check Out The Toronto Humane Society They Have Tons Of Pits Up For Adoption. If You Have The Love To Give A Pit, Give It To A Rescue Who Probably Has Never Felt That Love, You Gain So Much More From An Animal Who Knows How Good Their Life Is Now That You've Rescued Them.

There's the post from Whinnie when she first arrived here. Funny, I was here and gave her advice when she first started. I have tried to help her. I have given her the benefit of the doubt. I have made mistakes and APOLOGIZED for them.. but you can sit here and call me names... that's alright... you can judge me without knowing me...

I have not sat here and said anything about you until now. Not one post I made was in any way directed at you; I don't know you.... but YOU chose to start this.
YOU sat here and called me names and try and belittle me without knowing a single thing about me or what I was talking about.
That's a little hypocritcal don't you think?? My mom always told me "Don't dish it out if you can't take it."

If you feel better blaming me for you wanting to leave, so be it. But I am not the reason. You can't balme me for the one post I made defending myself.

Fairwell.

Dragonfly
January 10th, 2005, 11:15 AM
My arguement in the whole post was over people jumping all over Whinnie over a joke between herself and me. I knew what her post about her byb pups was all about and I just don`t see why everyone had to get so fired up about it.

To those in rescue and most of the forum members, byb's are not a joke in any sense of the word. Since this is a public forum, posts are read by not only the membership but many visitors on a daily basis. Up until the last couple of posts, this thread has been less argumentative and more a debate that offered information that people in general, and not just registered members could learn something from.

My original thought when the thread was started was to lock it before it turned into what it has now become. I will defer to LR and leave the post open, so long as it remains civil.

sammiec
January 10th, 2005, 12:09 PM
To those in rescue and most of the forum members, byb's are not a joke in any sense of the word. Since this is a public forum, posts are read by not only the membership but many visitors on a daily basis.

I 100% whoteheartedly agree. That's the only reason that I ever made a comment on this thread. I mentioned in a prior post, there are people that come to this board and may not have any knowledge regarding breeding; they will see this thread.
It's not about Whinnie and her dogs. It's about Back Yard Breeding, it's a very important and very passionate subject for those with a love for animals. Back Yard Breeding is NOT a joke.

I am sorry to the other members if you feel that I have been uncivil. I have had no intentions of name calling or been rude until I was attacked unjustly. I thought I remained civil by just pointing out what they had mistaken in my post.

I feel no compassion for those who feel it is up to them to create more heartache and saddness for these animals because their dog is so wonderful and want more just like it.

Do you understand the physical pains that your pet goes through while in heat?? Do you understand the trauma that can be caused during labour? Do you understand the expensive and never ending vet bills that can come from your dog giving birth?

Do you understand the chances your taking with your beloved pets life?? :sad:

If you did, then this wouldn't even be a consideration.

Lucky Rescue
January 10th, 2005, 12:40 PM
Copper's Mom, I absolutely agree that no one is perfect, knows everything, or has never made a mistake. We all have! Most important is learning from these mistakes. Many years ago, I got a kitten from a petstore. I didn't know what I know now, but the fact that I did it doesn't make me condone doing it now, nor would I ever do it again.

I feel this thread on the whole has been very educational and informative, and if it will stop one person from buying a puppy or kitten from a petstore/mill, then I'm very pleased.

So if a person gets their dog from a BYB, or a pet store(puppy mill) if they got the dog for the right reason, this should account for something. We can't save the world, but we can save a life!

I know that's the reasoning of many people, but it's not really saving a life. You have to look at the big picture. Look past the cute puppies to the pathetic dogs who are spending their lives suffering to produce them and line the pockets of greedy cretins. Look at the pics Sammiec posted. This is the source of the bright-eyed and adorable babies being peddled in petstores.

With the money paid for that puppy, 8 more will be pumped out. Every dollar put into the pockets of puppymillers is encouraging and perpetuating the sad abuse and exploitation of these animals. These people are in business, and like all businesses, they operate on profit/loss, supply/demand.

If everyone would stop buying these puppies, there would no reason to produce them and the abuse would end. I know that's just a dream for now.:(

Dukieboy
January 10th, 2005, 01:36 PM
What do you think a back yard breeder does with puppies he or she can't get rid of?

sammiec
January 10th, 2005, 01:40 PM
Any means necessary Dukie! :sad: Heck if they're willing to raise them in those conditions.. I can just imagine what they would do to get rid of them... soemtimes there are so many dogs cramped into a small cage that some will die and be trampled on until the breeder takes the time to remove the body.

The documented problems of puppy mills include overbreeding, inbreeding, minimal veterinary care, poor quality of food and shelter, lack of socialization with humans, overcrowded cages, and the killing of unwanted animals. To the unwitting consumer, this situation frequently means buying a puppy facing an array of immediate veterinary problems or harboring genetically borne diseases that do not appear until years later. In 1994, Time magazine estimated that as many as 25% of purebred dogs were afflicted with serious genetic problems.

Sadly, some dogs are forced to live in puppy mills for their entire lives. They are kept there for one reason only: to produce more puppies. Repeatedly bred, many of these "brood bitches" are killed once their reproductive capacity wanes.

Get the Facts on Puppy Mills (http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/get_the_facts_on_puppy_mills/)

Copper'sMom
January 10th, 2005, 04:16 PM
Not to change the subject...............But this is exactly why we need a licencing system to own dogs or any animal for that matter. Until M.B. goes after the root of the problem it will be a never ending battle :( .

I might have saved my little boy's life from the wrath of a bad owner but I'll never know for sure. Don't get me wrong I don't condone BYBs etc. but sadly that is where most people get their pets from whether we like it or not.

Schwinn
January 10th, 2005, 05:01 PM
Not to change the subject...............But this is exactly why we need a licencing system to own dogs or any animal for that matter.



I'd like to add children to that system.

CyberKitten
January 10th, 2005, 08:41 PM
Me too, Schwinn (re children!)

Seriously, there are several jurisdictions proposing that people there be severe restrictions placed on anyone who breeds animals - dogs, cats, others. Most would requite that a even a breeder who is breeding for the love of the breed - a show dog or cat who has a unique characteristic for example - would have to pay at least $100 to $200 for a licence. The cost would be higher for anyone running a for profit business. (Personlly, I do not think anyone should be allowed to breed cats or dogs for profit).

Most reputable breeders I know would not mind spending an extra fee. It already costs a small fortune to breed their champions as it is. It would have to be high enough to curtail the others though. It seems to me more education is the answer - people have got to stop purchasing pets from pet stores, online or through newspaper ads and find pets at a rescue center or if they absolutely want a specific breed, then take the time and find a reputable breeder for that species. And I do think that any pregnant female cat or dog who becomes pregnant - and that will occur as long as there are irresponsible people out there - should have the litter aborted. There are far too many unwanted animals now. In fact, rescue workers say there are more unwanted animals now than there were before so we are in no way winning the war!

I know I said it before but I cannot even imagine how anyone would use byb in a joking manner. Anyone who does should have to witness the death of some of these unwanted animals. It is no joking matter - and I know I take it very seriously but it is not a funny issue.

mona_b
January 10th, 2005, 09:35 PM
Actually CK,the breeders registered to the CKC are licenced.They need to be licenced to have their kennels.

Did that make sense?.LOL

LL1
January 10th, 2005, 09:55 PM
A reserved kennel name is reserving the name, not a license of a breeder. Some areas have bylaws in their towns for kennel licenses,and some don't grant kennel licenses, are the ones that do, those are given by the town,not the CKC.

I think alot of people are confused by that.

From the CKC:

DON'T BE MISLED

The use of the phrase"CKC Registered"means the dog is registered as a purebred dog.It is not an endorsement of the health/quality of the animal nor an endorsement of the operating practices of the breeder.It does not mean that the breeder is "registered"or "licensed".No breeders are issued licences by the CKC or any other organization.A breeder may choose to join The Canadian Kennel Club for the benefits of membership but their kennel is operated as an independent business.

CyberKitten
January 11th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Mona,

I could not sleep and need to be up at 5 AM and here I am reading this, lol

Anyway, what you said makes sense and I know that but it is not what I mean. I mean these propesed laws would require anyone who plans to breed animals tp have to apply for a fee, irrespective of their regular licence. It may be well intentioned and MAY - if passed - save some animals but the fact that marijuana is probibited does not top people from smoking it either. However, it might make it tougher for the well meaning back yard breeders who do not really understand what it is they are doing to breed their animals and sell the puppies or kittens. Currently, you can peruse the sales ads and it is perfectly legal to buy a kitten (or find one for free, even worse) in a newspaper. This type of legilation would require that even if I wanted to adopt the kittens a stray cat had when I rescued her, I'd need a fee. Anyone selling animals would require a certificate from some state department (These are US proposals) Now, it might also lead the irresponsible and unkind people to dump the kittens at the SPCA but it might make some think before NOT having their cat or dog neutered or spayed. Perhaps, part of the solution lies in requiring that all animals, other than breeders who pass a really difficult test (i.e. inspection of their catteries and living quarters by vets, mega paperwork, a high enough fee to mke nly the seriously concerned breeder think about it) be able to have pets ONLY if they are spayed/neutered. That is pretty darconian and God knows the govt does screw things up but I am just thinking out loud. I am not convinced changing legislation is the solution but I DO think there need to be more severe penalties against back yard breeders and kitten and puppy millers.

I don't know - as long as unsuspecting people (and the vast majority of people who buy pets do not research it nor do they read this web site before they get a pet) buy from pet stores, any breeder at all, there will be an overpopulation issue and needless deaths of innocent kittens and puppies. Pet stores should not be allowed to sell animals - they now make enough from supplies since so many people in North America have pets. I guess I am saying it make it more difficult to obtain and care for a pet.

You can have children and if you abuse and neglect them, the state will come after you and prosecute you - and there are all sorts of peripheral laws that require people in the helping professions like mine to report such incidences. Reports of abuse go up exponentially when school starts in September for example.

And there are very severe penalties for the abuse of children (thank God!). But when it comes to animals, we do not put our money and power where the laws are. We as a society say it's wrong but we do not back it up with the appropriate punishment. (We WILL however kill an unsocialized dog who bites a child whose parents were not supervising or had not taught him or her how to relate to animals). And this is a rhetorical question but do we really care what happens to animals and I am afraid that the response is no. If we really did, we would ensure that the laws reflected that fact and people like the Attorney General in Ontario would find political support in going after the people who neglect dogs and cats, NOT attacking the dogs.

I am not sure any of this is cogent or sensible. I do suspect that the reason this thread took off had nothin gto do with Winnie and whatever she may have done (and none of us has been perfect with our pets over the years either) but more to do with the fact that most of us see red at the mention of the word "back yard breeders". I mean, I do have a sense of humour but calling oneself a backyard breeder is akin to laughing about one being a serial rapist. It is not at all amusing or funny.

Lucky Rescue
January 11th, 2005, 12:33 PM
No, bybing is not funny at all. A picture says a thousand words, so take a look at the result of backyard breeding on the post I put up in the adoption forum. I hope everyone who feels bybing is not so bad takes a good look at this face.
Coco (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=85229#post85229)

Bearsmom
January 11th, 2005, 12:40 PM
Jumpin' in: I really think that any breeder should be subject to random and frequent inspections.

sammiec
January 11th, 2005, 12:44 PM
It's hard to subject a "breeder" to random inspections if they are doing this from the comfort of their own home. The respectable breeders would not have a problem with this. They are breeding for the love of the animals, not the money... the BYB's want money and do not care what condition the animals live in... the less attractive the "housing" is the less money they have to contribute to the operation.

BYB are simply people that have a pet and love that pet so much that they mate it and have puppies.. they sell the puppies and do it again. It's expoiltation of a family pet in most cases. A puppy mill is different; they are illegal, dismantled and the owners are charged.

Bearsmom
January 11th, 2005, 01:04 PM
[QUOTE=sammiec] The respectable breeders would not have a problem with this.

My point exactly. But I also think that if there were to be inspectors "floating about" checking the newspaper ads, or signs by the roadway, it may be more effective and enforceable. I for one, would volunteer for this job..

sammiec
January 11th, 2005, 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=sammiec] The respectable breeders would not have a problem with this.

My point exactly. But I also think that if there were to be inspectors "floating about" checking the newspaper ads, or signs by the roadway, it may be more effective and enforceable. I for one, would volunteer for this job..

Oh sorry, I misunderstood your post. I think that's a great idea. Is it possible that they might have some kind of "sting" operation like that in place to catch some puppy mills and such.

Bearsmom
January 11th, 2005, 01:21 PM
S'ok, I'm in hour #55 of a 60 hour shift and am surprised I can remember my name, let alone type/speak/drive. :p

Schwinn
January 11th, 2005, 02:10 PM
S'ok, I'm in hour #55 of a 60 hour shift and am surprised I can remember my name, let alone type/speak/drive. :p

That's why I used to where a name tag (except on really bad days I thought my name was "Royal Bank")

Bearsmom
January 11th, 2005, 03:42 PM
The mood my captain is in today, my name is "Kath, couldya....."


AAAAAARGHHHHHH