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Cropping Ears and Tails

Schwinn
January 1st, 2005, 08:20 PM
I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on cropping ears and tails. Myself, I don't see a point to it, unless you are showing the dog. Especially with breeds that are being targetted as "vicious". I remember seeing pictures of two pitbulls sided by side, with very similar colouring. One had his ears cropped, one didn't. The dog with the normal ears looked friendly and sweet, while the dog with the cropped ears looked a lot more intimidating (I'm thinking from the average person's standpoint). I don't think we'd have as many people approach us or comment on how pretty Daisy was if her ears were cropped, thus we'd have less opportunity to educate people on the breed. Although I do remember a time where we were still learning to keep away from Dumb-dumb's "tail of destruction" when she was happy, Cheryl jokingly told me she asked the vet about cropping it. She loves to chase her tail (sometimes, she just stand there pretending to stare of into space while her tail wags, and I'll see she's looking out of the corner of her eye, then she'll suddenly jump around, like she's trying to sneak up on her butt! Cracks me up everytime!). I had this vision of her getting her tail cropped, and when she's trying to chase it, thinking her butt got faster since she can't catch up to it. Then, after a while saying, "You want your tail? Here you go." And she freaks out (in my head she screams as it lands at her feet). You know, it's random thoughts that go through my head like this that make me afraid to sleep and have dreams...anyway...

As I said, I don't see the point to doing it if you don't have to. I don't think it's necessarily cruel, I just don't see a point. And especially now that we are in a public relations nightmare, I think we need all the help we can get. (I liken it to when I was a banker. Outside of work I dressed trendy and wore a big earring. But when I was behind the desk, right or wrong, people had a perception of how they wanted thier banker to look, so I dressed the part. First impressions...)

LavenderRott
January 1st, 2005, 08:38 PM
I am a bit older then you and I must admit, I appreciate the sight of that little tan heart shape on a rottie butt or a well done pair of ears on a doberman.

Tails, for those breeds with docked tails, need to be docked when a pup is just a couple of days old. It is impossible at this age for even the best breeder to tell if a pup is show quality. Ears are a bit different and done when puppies are older.

Personally, a doberman with a tail and natural ears looks a lot like a black and tan coon hound.

Lucky Rescue
January 1st, 2005, 09:01 PM
If I were going to dock or crop anything, it would be my pit bull's tail! It's truly lethal on shins or objects on coffee tables. :rolleyes: But what would a "wigglebutt" be without a tail?

I too love the look of a nicely cropped Dobie, but don't think I could do it myself and if I ever got a puppy and would get one already "done".

For pit bulls, I don't really like the look of cropped ones and my dog's floppy ears make her look sweet and approachable.:)

meb999
January 1st, 2005, 09:16 PM
I'm looking into getting a boxer pup (or maybe a rescue, if I can convince my hubbie...). I would like to keep the ears natural, because, like you Swinn, I don't see the point in cropping them, and I like the floppy ear look. I find it makes a dog look friendlier, especially dogs with 'bad reputations'
One of the breeders I spoke got kinda annoyed at me when I told him I didn't want cropped ears. He told me ALL his dogs get cropped and it looks better. Should I insist?
My friend had a boxer and got his ears cropped when he was about 1 and a half. He told me (my friend, not his dog!!) that he suffered alot and that it was really painfull.
The docked tail, i have less of a probem with. It can be helpfull with dogs who have strong tails that clear a coffee table with one wag. Plus, I was told that it is done when they are very young and it doesn't hurt them.
I personnally think that ear cropping is like an unecessary plastic sugery. But that's just my opinion.

BMDLuver
January 1st, 2005, 09:34 PM
Tail cropping is done prior to 3 days of age as the puppy has no feeling in his/her tail up to that point. Ears are another matter. It can be extremely painful and for some dogs it does not go well. We recently had the choice to crop a whole litter of Rottie puppies but I could not do it. Maybe it wasn't the right choice but I didn't have the heart to do it to them. The vet felt is was not a necessary practice. The people who are adopting them don't seem to mind the tail being intact.

As for the boxer breeder, I would suggest you find another one. It should be your choice as to having a pups ears done or not. If you aren't planning on showing the puppy and achieving grand champion points, why does it matter. Sounds more to me that the breeders ego is getting in the way. :yuck:

glasslass
January 1st, 2005, 09:39 PM
I have to admit that I love Den-Den's pom-pom! But I've seen poodles with natural tails and they're cute too. But, then again, I shudder to think what kind of ridiculous string-of-pearls haircut they'd get if long tails became the standard for poodles! :eek:

Lucky Rescue
January 2nd, 2005, 08:41 AM
My friend had a boxer and got his ears cropped when he was about 1 and a half.

What kind of person would do this? :eek: That is extreme cruelty, since puppies' ears should be cropped before 12 weeks of prior to the cartilege hardening!! Tell your friend to go get HIS ears amputated and see how it feels. :mad:

And one of the top winning Boxers on the show circuits had natural ears.

meb999
January 2nd, 2005, 11:00 AM
Tell your friend to go get HIS ears amputated and see how it feels. :mad: .
I agree...he had this done before we met him (His dog was 6 years old when we met)
His vet had told him that this was the right time to do it. I think he did it out of ignorance, not cruelty...he loved Giggy very much. Apparently Giggy was in huge amounts of pain after his ears were done :sad: Poor baby.
It's actually because of Giggy that we want a boxer, we fell in love with that sweetheart (he passed away 6 months ago of cancer...he was just 9 years old)

Rottimom
January 2nd, 2005, 01:20 PM
I don't get it at all. I see no point in altering your dogs natural appearance, unless it would in some way medically benefit your dog. If it's done for cosmetic purposes only then I think it is unnecessary. I don't know how painful it is or isn't, but is it still not surgery?

Herc has a "tail of destruction" as well but I love it! It's part of his charm! My clumsy adult cousin has broken many more things in my home than Herc ever has!!

Lucky Rescue
January 2nd, 2005, 02:19 PM
(he passed away 6 months ago of cancer...he was just 9 years old)


Sadly, this seems to be something many boxers are predisposed towards. So much so that one vet described the breed as "cancer factories."

http://www.boxerbuddies.org/Boxer%20Health/cancer_and_boxers.htm

Lucky Rescue
January 2nd, 2005, 02:34 PM
(he passed away 6 months ago of cancer...he was just 9 years old)


Sadly, this seems to be something many boxers are predisposed towards. So much so that one vet described the breed as "cancer factories."

http://www.boxerbuddies.org/Boxer%20Health/cancer_and_boxers.htm

chico2
January 2nd, 2005, 04:05 PM
A young man across the street from me,actually had his pitties ears done just resently,the dog must be about 2 yrs old.He is a beautiful blue/grey colour with white socks and is a very sweet friendly,well trained dog.
Unfortunately,if any dog can look ugly,the cropped ears now makes him look menacing and I know he's anything but :sad:

crazyhorse
January 2nd, 2005, 05:22 PM
My cousin has a dobie, which he never cropped or docked and he is still beautiful. Even if he was cropped or docked I belive he would still be afraid of his own shadow.

Karin
January 2nd, 2005, 05:29 PM
Back in the 80's just about every vet across Florida did ear cropping. I assisted in many myself. Now, I know of only one vet here in north Florida that still crops ears.
Tails & dewclaws are different.They are done at 2 - 5 days of age, day three being the best day depending on the strength of the litter. Ciara was from a litter of nine and all had double dews. (Rotti's are known for that)

After five days it is consider amputation and requires anesthesia.

Even the AKC is getting away from ear cropping, however the boxer that just won the latest trials did have cropped ears.

Schnauzers are not one of my favorite breeds, but the only "mean" ones I have met...and there have been many, have cropped ears. Makes me wonder why only those are the mean ones!

glasslass
January 2nd, 2005, 07:09 PM
Karin, are you saying that between 1-4 days, anesthesia isn't used? :eek:

Schwinn
January 2nd, 2005, 07:56 PM
Herc has a "tail of destruction" as well but I love it! It's part of his charm! My clumsy adult cousin has broken many more things in my home than Herc ever has!!

Do you have a picture? I don't think I've ever seen a Rotti with a tail.

Schnauzers are not one of my favorite breeds, but the only "mean" ones I have met...and there have been many, have cropped ears. Makes me wonder why only those are the mean ones!

Maybe they're afraid of someone taking something else off! ;)

Karin
January 2nd, 2005, 08:57 PM
Karin, are you saying that between 1-4 days, anesthesia isn't used? :eek:

Yes.

The procedure is safe & swift when done at the vet's and sutures are used.

Breeders, the back yard type we never see unless there is a problem. They just twist the tails off and cut or pinch the dewclaws. (usually right at birth)
Anything to save a buck. One, Kathy Bardeen..and I will use her name here, tried to do her own c-section on a Sunday to save money. She did not want to pay for the emergency visit & Sx. Of course all died.
You can alway's see the botched tailed twisted work, the corkscrew tail. Breeders are clueless on how a tail should look if properly docked, unless they show themselves.

Just a note: Kathy's Kuties are advertised everywhere. My former employer supports her medically and certificately too. She is a client of record since 1998. 160 breeding pairs of yorkies, poodles, chihuahuas, chinese crested, pugs, bostens..outside: boxers and mastiff's. (God only know what else since I have been there) Cages were stacked in her bedroom with parvo stricken puppies the last time I was there. That is why I was sent there.

Anything by Kathy's Kuties, stay far away!

I stand behind the tail docking & dewclaws but nothing else.

Carina
January 2nd, 2005, 09:07 PM
Do you have a picture? I don't think I've ever seen a Rotti with a tail.



If you Google "rottweiler tails" and then choose images, you'll get a bunch:
http://images.google.com/images?q=rottweiler+tails&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search

I like the nubby-butt look of docked dogs. (I have Rottweilers.) And I think some breeds look more impressive with nicely cropped ears.
Having said that, I am increasingly uncomfortable with the notion of surgically altering a dog's appearance for our own aesthetic whims. Though tails are done at a few days old - without anasthesia; the nerve development is incomplete & there is little if no pain.
From what I understand, less pain than a baby human goes through being circumsised.! :sick:
Ears are another story though....I've known pups going through ear cropping...I would not be comfortable doing that to a dog I owned, without good reason.

Lucky Rescue
January 2nd, 2005, 09:12 PM
Karin has this person been reported to the authorities for cruelty?? :eek:

Karin
January 2nd, 2005, 09:49 PM
Karin has this person been reported to the authorities for cruelty?? :eek:

Many times! And many buyers have sued. She replaces the puppy or pays out of pocket. Or ignores them. So far, the value of the dog is the only thing that holds up in court...no one will or can take it any further.

But I just got a light bulb moment. *smacks forehead* I have nothing to fear anymore...I do not have to worry about losing my job anymore! That is done...I am not bound by any idiot employer...and I use to work for the neighboring county where I reside now..and still know the powers to be**thinking as I type***..Jaye Parret, Cruelty Investigator for the Marion Co. Sherif's Dept., we worked together when I was with Rabies Control over 24 years ago. She has since busted the nurse maid foal farm, and the greyhound farm (written up in Reader's Digest)..I do need to make some calls, last time I talked to Jaye was for advice on the crows I had.
I have a new project inbetween "blue hairs". She can go over county lines!

mona_b
January 2nd, 2005, 10:35 PM
One of the breeders I spoke got kinda annoyed at me when I told him I didn't want cropped ears. He told me ALL his dogs get cropped and it looks better. Should I insist?


To be honest,this doesn't sound like a very good breeder.No Boxer,Great Dane or Dobie breeder I know crops their pups ears before leaving.They leave that part up to the new owners.

A friend of mine did have her Dane,Jaz cropped at about 3 months.But her sister didn't have her Danes cropped.

Here are some pcs... :)

MIA
January 3rd, 2005, 02:09 AM
Personally I don't have a huge issue with docking as I have seen it done many times over and when done right, it's nothing... As for the ears, I rather see them natural, I think it's unfair to put a dog through taping and popcicle sticks etc... My friend shows Danes and is NOT doing thier ears, she has three champions now all natural!

I am glad my Doberman doesn't have a tail as I would never be able to have anything on the coffee table!

To each his own but I am sure they will try and ban it here eventually, as they have in other countries.

jackieb
January 3rd, 2005, 06:37 AM
personnaly i hate it and cant belive they do it here i can see the point with some breeds for the tail to be docked as the tail can get caught when they are a working dog . In england it is illegal to do it working dogs used to be able to get it done not sure if they can or not. I cant see the point in ear triming except for the owner liking them jmo.

Schwinn
January 3rd, 2005, 07:36 AM
If you Google "rottweiler tails" and then choose images, you'll get a bunch:
http://images.google.com/images?q=rottweiler+tails&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search



Thanks for that! I have never seen one before without a cropped tail!

I don't have an issue with the process, per se. I don't think there is a lot of physical or emotional damage to the puppy when it is done (when the dog is older, I think that's a different story). I just don't see a real point to it, and for those of us who are afraid of being targetted by a BSL, I think it better to try keep our dogs looking as friendly as possible. Right or wrong, we are basically in a PR fight. While I agree we shouldn't have to defend our dogs because they "look" mean, I think we have to face the reality that we do. Just a thought.

meb999
January 3rd, 2005, 10:02 AM
A friend of mine did have her Dane,Jaz cropped at about 3 months.But her sister didn't have her Danes cropped.

Here are some pcs... :)
awwwwwwwwww
I love Danes, they look like royalty...so majestic!
I actually wanted a great dane, but when I told my husband, he gave me the rules of the house : I can get any dog I want, so long as it doesn't crap bigger than him :)
I call it the NFF -- the Nicola feces factor!

Schwinn
January 3rd, 2005, 10:06 AM
awwwwwwwwww
I love Danes, they look like royalty...so majestic!
I actually wanted a great dane, but when I told my husband, he gave me the rules of the house : I can get any dog I want, so long as it doesn't crap bigger than him :)
I call it the NFF -- the Nicola feces factor!

That's what we thought, too. Then we got Daisy...When she was a pup, I practically needed to rent a back hoe. We were convinced she was importing it from somewhere! I kept asking my wife what was going on (she was my girlfriend at the time), and she insisted she didn't know why so much was coming out, she wasn't putting that much in!

Carina
January 3rd, 2005, 11:58 AM
I just don't see a real point to it, and for those of us who are afraid of being targetted by a BSL, I think it better to try keep our dogs looking as friendly as possible. Right or wrong, we are basically in a PR fight.

For pitbulls & "fighting" breeds, wasn't the whole point of cropping to give the other dog less to hold on to? I honestly don't even care for the cropped look....I have a friend with an uncropped Dane, those dogs are imposing looking as it is!

One of my Rottweilers has long hair, like a shaggy bear. People are much quicker to approach him than my other one, because he looks fluffy, or friendlier, or something. I've also heard people say they use cute collars, or bandanas, on the "bad boy" breeds to make them appear friendly. :)

Tails....docking at 3 days old is not that big a deal. Removing the tail on an older pup or an adult is amputation. I had an old mutt who lost 6" off the end of her tail in an accident and had to have it repaired....it was clearly a painful thing for her to go through.

Schwinn
January 3rd, 2005, 01:06 PM
For pitbulls & "fighting" breeds, wasn't the whole point of cropping to give the other dog less to hold on to? I honestly don't even care for the cropped look....I have a friend with an uncropped Dane, those dogs are imposing looking as it is!

One of my Rottweilers has long hair, like a shaggy bear. People are much quicker to approach him than my other one, because he looks fluffy, or friendlier, or something. I've also heard people say they use cute collars, or bandanas, on the "bad boy" breeds to make them appear friendly. :)



That is one of the reason for cropping. I think it is also the standard for showing the dogs as well. As for the cute collars, that was one of the reasons we took off Daisy's spike collar she had when we got her. It's easier to convince people how friendly the breed is if they don't cross the road everytime they see her.

Sheriffmom
January 3rd, 2005, 04:47 PM
From what I've read the original intent of cropping was to prevent blood loss during a fight (whether dog/dog, dog/bull, dog/boar etc). Ears have a huge number of vessels and bleed profusely. The blood loss from ears through a fight could not only severly impare the longevity and stamina of a fighting dog, but the blood also impares vision, and footing.


Graffic content warning***
Some "dogmen" (fighters) crop the ears with scissors (go to almost any Pit rescue web site, and you'll see examples of this), so they can make them smaller then what a Vet will do (and cheaper). Also, a disgusting trend among some of these fighters is to cut the lips off the Pits, less to bleed, and less to hold on to. (Those of you who have see the pitbull video on deviantart will have seen pics of this). **** End of Graffic content


I have a HUGE problem with anytype of surgical proceedure being done on an animal for purely cosmetic reasons. This includes docking, cropping, and declawing. If it needs to be done for medical purposes then by all means I am not against it. I have a problem though with ppl demanding that for a dog to be perfect, they must have a surgical proceedure to alter them cosmetically. It's like (IMO) telling me to get breast augmentation because the "standard woman" must be a size C. I think the CKC and AKC are starting to head in the right direction, by not requiring certain breeds to be altered cosmetically anymore. (BTW IMO-- I find it very funny that a dog cannot be "altered" (neutered/spayed) to win a Championship--- but that they used to demand that they be "altered" (docking/cropping) to win a championship!! LOL) I think any dog should be able to win a Championship based on the base look of the dog, not the human perception of a "perfect" looking dog.
PS--I wonder how our pets would "alter" us if they could to make us perfect in their eyes?? .... or do they already see us as perfect? :)

LL1
January 3rd, 2005, 05:07 PM
I hadn't seen them either - there are a few more now in Ontario - rescue recently took in 10 purebred pups with tails.
Thanks for that! I have never seen one before without a cropped tail!

Carina
January 3rd, 2005, 05:29 PM
Sheriffmom - I'm with you on being increasingly hesitant about cosmetic surgical procedures. If I ever buy a well bred Rottweiler again - rather than rescue - I may have to look overseas! Since the AKC doesn't allow undocked Rottweilers to be shown in conformation (OK in all other events) it's hard to find intact Rottweilers here.
This is the AKC "mission statement" on Rottweiler tails:
http://www.amrottclub.org/dock.htm

Actually tails, I don't mind as much as ears. Because is is a very minor procedure, really, compared to ears. Much less invasive than neutering (surgically altering temperament in male dogs) - neutering too early actually has potential risks that in my breed, possibly outweigh the benefits:
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/11/1434

Lucky Rescue
January 3rd, 2005, 06:12 PM
If the CKC/AKC really cared about dogs, they would not be biased against undocked/uncropped dogs, would not encourage the breeding of deformed dogs with massive health problems (English Bulldogs) nor would they prohibit the showing of spayed/neutered dogs. Surely they've heard there is an overpopulation problem?

Since the CKC/AKC are all we have, not much choice if someone has a dog and wants to assure it's of breeding quality. :rolleyes:

No, no one has to crop or dock, but ask rescues if they have great success finding homes for Rotties and Dobies with natural ears and tails. These breeds already have so many strikes against them that no one should add even more.

Reputable breeders of these breeds will dock Rotties before sale and will also crop Dobie puppies first to ensure it's done right. No really good breeder wants one of his/her dogs walking around with botched or home dock or crop jobs.

mona_b
January 4th, 2005, 12:55 AM
awwwwwwwwww
I love Danes, they look like royalty...so majestic!
I actually wanted a great dane, but when I told my husband, he gave me the rules of the house : I can get any dog I want, so long as it doesn't crap bigger than him :)
I call it the NFF -- the Nicola feces factor!

LMAO..Too funny

Sheriffmom
January 4th, 2005, 04:35 AM
What do you mean LR about deformed dogs with Massive health problems "English Bulldogs"? Any breed that is not bred well can have massive health problems. Many English Bullies, although prone to certain problems, are starting to become more resiliant. Although Sheriff has some stomache problems (Mainly a few allergies, and possibly colitis), and easily gets rashes (more due to his coloring) he has no breathing issues (Vet says his nostrils are great). Any pure bred dog can have massive health problems, as can any mixed breed, I don't think singling out breeds due to health problems is the answere. Most ppl here I though agreed that the whole purpose of responsible breeding is the betterment of the breed? Many dogs have massive health problems that have not yet been perfectly worked out of their lines--- hips, SB, luxating patellas, deafness, spinal problems etc, etc...
My problem with the CKC AKC is not the breeds themselves, but the cosmetic surgery they require a dog to undergo, so he/she can be the "perfect dog".
It's like trying to creat a "Barbie Dog" world! LOL

mona_b
January 4th, 2005, 08:13 AM
I have to agree with you Sheriiffmom on what you have said.We all know that many Purebreds,if not all, have health issues,and yes the mixed ones too.And we know of the health issues in GSD's.I have owned/own this breed for many years.And I have never had any of the health issues that come with this breed.Knock on wood,(knocks on head.LOL)..And I have to say that my dogs came from excellent breeding.My brother also has never had any problems with this breed.And he has been working with them for many years.Again,excellent breeding.

As for the cosmetics in the show world,I have been to many shows and know people in the show world.If ANY of the judges find out that these dogs have been altered in anyway,they are out of the show.And it's hard to find out what a person has done to their dog.But there are some smart judges out there who pick it up.And I have heard of 3 people who tried to get away with it.

Dukieboy
January 4th, 2005, 11:21 AM
I think they look better with natural ears. Friendlier.

LL1
January 4th, 2005, 12:16 PM
Did you know the bulldog is ranked #1 for hip dysplasia by breeding according to the OFA? It just says Bulldog, but American Bulldog #11 and French Bulldog #13 are ranked separately, would that be the English Bulldog that is #1 then?
What do you mean LR about deformed dogs with Massive health problems "English Bulldogs"? Any breed that is not bred well can have massive health problems. Many dogs have massive health problems that have not yet been perfectly worked out of their lines--- hips, SB, luxating patellas, deafness, spinal problems etc, etc...

Schwinn
January 4th, 2005, 12:18 PM
Sheriffmom -
This is the AKC "mission statement" on Rottweiler tails:
http://www.amrottclub.org/dock.htm



This sounds like someone trying to justify it to me. I mean, those of us with dogs with tails, how many have had our pooch injure thier tail from wagging it too close to a wall? I don't doubt it happens, but this whole thing reads like someone trying to avoid saying, "I think it looks better". I think I'd respect that person more if they'd just come out and say it.

I also question putting the pup in the fridge for two minutes. I'm not sure turning him into a pupsicle is really necessary. But hey, I'm not a breeder, so what do I know?

LL1
January 4th, 2005, 01:03 PM
I agree with you. I've seen several dogs with happy tails that have split and injured them from all kinds of breeds that do not advocate docking them.
This sounds like someone trying to justify it to me. I mean, those of us with dogs with tails, how many have had our pooch injure thier tail from wagging it too close to a wall? I don't doubt it happens, but this whole thing reads like someone trying to avoid saying, "I think it looks better". I think I'd respect that person more if they'd just come out and say it.

meb999
January 4th, 2005, 03:49 PM
I think they look better with natural ears. Friendlier.
awwwww, what a cutiepie! How anyone could find him scary is beyond me...
I completely agree, there's something about floppy ears and a wiggle-butt that just makes dogs look friendlier. I know we shouldn't have to try and prove that our dogs are friendly, but nowadays, with breed bans seemingly 'in fashion', shouldn't we try to do everything to make the dogs with a 'bad rep' look sweeter and less 'scary' to the general public??
I agree with Swinn...it's become a pr fight...unfortunetly, the politicians are winning :sad:

Carina
January 4th, 2005, 05:44 PM
This sounds like someone trying to justify it to me. I mean, those of us with dogs with tails, how many have had our pooch injure thier tail from wagging it too close to a wall? I don't doubt it happens, but this whole thing reads like someone trying to avoid saying, "I think it looks better". I think I'd respect that person more if they'd just come out and say it.

I also question putting the pup in the fridge for two minutes. I'm not sure turning him into a pupsicle is really necessary. But hey, I'm not a breeder, so what do I know?


I completely agree with you! Personally, I DO think docked tails look better - hey, I've had Rottweilers in my life going on 20 years, I'm used to it! I truly would like one with a tail, though. Last year someone basically dumped five Rottweiler puppies at my vets...tails and all. OMG they were adorable.
I've chatted online with a very knowlegable Rottweiler person. She does agility, obedience, etc....one of her dogs is an Austrian import, with tail. A top competition agility dog. She has a theory that they are more balanced and sound with tails.

And, I do believe there are all sorts of ways to get a little healthy stress and variety into a very young puppy's life without sticking it in the fridge! In the grand scheme of things I suppose it's not an awful thing to do. Just seems a little, I dunno, contrived.