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do you have winter tyres on your vechile

jackieb
December 10th, 2004, 11:02 AM
Do they help in the snow are they worth the cash??

We are saving hard for a house and dont really have any spae money but wondered if theese were worth the money

schnauzerlove
December 10th, 2004, 11:06 AM
A good set of snow tires is ABSOLUTELY worth the money for Ontario winters!! Just make sure to take them off in the summer as they are very soft and will wear easily.

The difference in traction, IMHO, between all-season radials and snow tires is unbelievable. You will actually feel your vehicle hugging the road and the traction you have. :thumbs up

jackieb
December 10th, 2004, 11:08 AM
thanks for that we have been wondering if we will be able to get away with it for my hubbys car they wont be to bad the cost mine is a windstar so it will cost more

thanks

raingirl
December 10th, 2004, 11:11 AM
If I remember, you just bought an Accent right? You would definately need snow tires for that car, as it's so light. PLus, you live in the snow belt (lake effect snow area).

Keep in mind though, if you have two sets of tires, they ware out slower than if you only had one. Invest now, and they will last you a long time.

jackieb
December 10th, 2004, 11:44 AM
yes hubby has a accent and i have a windstar we are in cambridge but money is tight so wanted to know if we could get away we it.
sorry i posted but it didnt show wierd

Schwinn
December 10th, 2004, 12:13 PM
Whether you need snow tires or not depends on a few factors--the vehicle, amount of snow, and the amount you drive. We lived in Orillia, then Wasaga Beach, now Keswick. We've never put tires on the Civic, and never really needed them. On my truck, however, we do put snows on the back tires. The first one I had, however, had aggressive all terrain tires, and didn't really need tires. Are the tires worth it? Again, depends on a few things. Will they make a difference? Absolutely. Will they make a difference big enough to bother? Hate to say it again, but it depends.

I'd answer this way--have you had any difficulty in previous winters? I have never put snow tires on any of our front wheel drive cars, though I had a car when I was in university that could have used them. The cougar also had some difficulties. However, most front wheel drive vehicles don't need snow tires. Not only that, it is a little more expensive for front wheel drive cars, because it is actually illegal for a garage to put snow tires on the front only. Either two on the back, four, or none. That doesn't mean you won't find a garage that will do it (I've seen a few cars). The reason? The tires are not for traction, but stability. If you have more traction on the front than the back, when you turn a corner, the back end swings out (this was a favourite past time of mine in high school when I had bald tires on the back of my Civic, freaking out the motor heads by doing doughnuts in a front wheel drive car). Therefore, on your Accent, you will have to purchase four (again, unless you find a garage willing to do two, in which case they are doing a disservice to you, and making your car actually more dangerous to drive). As for your Windstar, I don't know if it is rear-wheel or front-wheel drive (I'm trying to deny any possibility of ever having a mini-van by ignoring everything about them :) ) If it is rear-wheel drive, then you may want to invest in a pair. If it is front wheel drive, I'd put that on the "it'd be nice" list, unless you've had difficulties. If it is rear-wheel drive, you could also try buying traction sand at Home Depot. It comes in long bags, and you put one on the floor over each tire. It'll help with traction.

Sorry to be so long, but to give you my short answer--if both vehicles are front-wheel drive, and because you are trying to save money, I'd say don't. They will make things easier, but they aren't a necessity. If you weren't saving money, and had some extra cash around, I'd say go ahead.

jackieb
December 10th, 2004, 12:55 PM
well im having problems getting onto pets ca today but i have a front wheel windstar and found it a blessing with 3 boys in child seats!! The hyandi hubby uses for work he now owrks about 5 km from the house. I will use the windstar to go to a little learners programm about 3km from the house other than that it is used very little but i do go out in it most days and will still need to in the winter.

thanks

Bugsy
December 10th, 2004, 12:57 PM
I do. However I drive around with winter tires all year. :D

GunnerX
December 10th, 2004, 01:56 PM
I've had my winter tires on since October. But that's because my summer tires finally wore out.

I think winter tires should be mandatory since it definitely helps. I have a FWD and am glad I have winters on. On the way to the GO train one day a couple of weeks ago, I was driving normally not worrying about anything. I parked the car and got out and realized that the ground was all iced up. This minivan turned to the same laneway I was in and braked to let us walk by. As he did so, he slid several inches forward. This was when I realized how slippery the roads were. But with winter tires I didn't really notice it at all.

I paid $308 for my tires installed through connections. They're Kumho KW11s 15" tires and are great in snow and ice. Think of it this way. Is your safety not worth the money?

db7
December 10th, 2004, 02:14 PM
IMO they are very worth it. Keep in mind they are for improving stopping not starting. Eventually they will save you from an accident and four tires cost less than your deductable. And don't put snows on the front only of a front wheel drive. If you do that and try to stop fast you will spin out, back end of the car will be in front before you can blink.

If you can only afford two, but them on the back. Let's face it, if you are having trouble getting traction with all-seasons to get started it is probably too slippery to drive anyway. Gotta be able to stop before you start.

CyberKitten
December 10th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Speaking as a phsyician and pediatrician who often covers the ER, anyone who does NOT have have winter tires on their vehicle) anywhere in Canada - with the possible exception of the lower mainland and Vanouver Island in BC) is tempting fate and may not really value their lives and that of their children/pets if those children and pets drive with them in the winter!!

To be honest, I cannot imagine anyone even debating the issue. Though I hate using anecdotal info, I have personally seen some horrid and tragic injuries and deaths from accidents that might have been prevented or at least mitigated if they'd been inside a vehicle with all seaonal tires. That said, the data also demonstrates the same thing.

If you save your life and those of your family in even just one accident, you will not even think of the cost. Iimho, it's rather like seats belts (one of which saved my life the other night - in the encounter with the infamous moose -along with my all seasonals given that the road was a little icy) and low lights, they should be mandatory in certain regions of the country. (ie everywhere except lower ml BC and Van Is).

The same is true for certain parts of the US - northern Maine and other parts of NE (I studied and lived in Boston for many years and alas, they do not know howto handle a blizzard and so you'd better have good tires!! At Boston Childrens' Hospital where I did my residency and later worked for a few years, we saw many children die horrible and needless deaths because their parents thought people like Ralph Nader were wrong and they'd never have to worry about stopping fast on black ice or try to survive a whiteout in a storm.

The CMA (Cdn Medical Assn) continues to lobby for making them mandatory (as seatbelts are) and it will come in time but in the interim, it is up to us to educate ourselves.

The question should be can you afford not to!

Schwinn
December 10th, 2004, 04:28 PM
I'm confused, Cyberkitten. Are you referring to winter tires, or all-season tires?

Schwinn
December 10th, 2004, 04:38 PM
Most of today's FWD cars, with all season tires with GOOD TREAD WEAR are sufficient in southern Ontario. Unfortunatly, many people drive about 20k beyond treadlife (hint--if you're using the wear bars for tread, you've gone WAY too far!), and don't adjust thier driving to winter. If you have the money, absolutly, winter tires. But I wouldn't call it mandatory. But it does make for an easier drive in the winter.

Personally, I think a lot of the times the money would be better spent on winter driving lessons! It amazes me some of the asinine things I see on the road! I remember when I had my RX-7 (see:bobsled in winter), a little 2-seater RWD, and I remember shaking my head as I passed all these FWD cars and all wheel drive cars in the ditch going down the highway. And that was when I had all season's. Studded tires wouldn't even be good enough if you don't drive properly!! But I digress...

CyberKitten
December 10th, 2004, 07:16 PM
I use seasonal tires year round but also have so called winter tires for the severe winter months. Where I live, one never knows when there will be a freak winter storm. I once arrived home from Florida in May to a snow storm!

I am a good driver (have had few accidents in spite of the moose thing the other evening) but black ice, winter white outs, blizzards where you can't see the median, hrdroplaning , 360 degree turns in once again, black ice, a highway department that puts not enough or bad quality salt on a highway filled with glare ice (tho it may not be their fault completely - winter driving can just be hell to predict) - are all hard to control. With all due respect, you can take all the preventive drving courses you want and while they may help you do the right thing in an accident, it is really a combination of all factors that are important: a good vehicle that is kept in good running order (probably best to have a new one every two years, sort of like the recommendation for changing glasses only more important for your life), WINTER tires, always being prepared in case of an emergency in the winter and good judgement in terms of driving (like listening to the police whn they tell you to stay off the road). Unfortunately, when I am on call, it does not matter if if I follow all that and want to stay off the roafs, if I hit an icy patch, I'd better have a good vehicle with four wheel drive and great winter tires!! (and practice safe driving!!). Ever since I did make a 360 degree curve (thankfully no traffic was in the offing), I sometimes have the RCMP bring me to work. If they can, they are usually more than willing. I've also gone to work on a snow plough (once delivered a baby in a snow plough! - though I managed to talk the parents out of naming trhe child Stormy and they named her instead for the month (Marcia) .

I could go on but you get the picture.

I still think everyone needs snow tires. I am not auto expert and never will or desire to be. I don't even care about auto mechanics, lol I just know what I've seen in the ER and held dying children whose parents sadly did not have winter tires. (No accident can be simply blamed on one variable but that one appears way too frequently to be a statistical anomoly. I do not use Michelin tires but they have those commercials about having your important cargo riding on the best tires - something to thar effect, all the while showing babies in tires. It is tug at the heartstrings ad but they do have a point. You don't necessarily need Michelin but for your babies (human and furbabies), if you live in a winter climate country, I think we should drive with winter tires!

I do not mean to sound preachy - if people want to take a chance, that's up to them. But I hate to see children especially endure serious injuries or die because of the lack of winter tires.

maddoxies
December 10th, 2004, 07:57 PM
In Montreal, winter tires are almost a religion :)
I was told that the big difference between All Season and Winter tires was that winter tires hug better in the colder weather. All Seasons dont do as well in really cold weather.

Another tip I was just given, was not to use cruise control if the pavement is not bare and dry. If you start to slide or hydroplane, the cruise will kick in and accelerate even more.

"Let's be careful out there"

Writing4Fun
December 10th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Don't know if this was mentioned before, but another good idea is to get an extra set of rims for your car. Costco sells them for about $35each. You might be able to find them at a wrecker's (scrap yard) for pretty cheap, too. Mount the winter tires on the not-so-nice set of rims. That way, you only pay for mounting and balancing once, and hubby can change them easily himself every year thereafter. This will also help protect your "good" rims (if you have any ;) ) from the ravages of winter.

Winter tires are a must-have for Canadian winters, IMHO. The rubber is softer and grippier (is that a word?) than summer or all-season tires. Plus, like Raingirl pointed out, each set will last longer because you're only using them half the year instead of year-round.

Good luck with your first Canadian winter, Jackie! :crazy:

CyberKitten
December 10th, 2004, 09:58 PM
OMiGosh, is this your first Canadian winter Jackie? No wonder you are posing the question. I thought maybe you are a new driver and did not know about winter drivers. (It is not a query one often hears)

By all means, get winter tires! To quote a friend of mine ("lucien" http://www/lucien.nb.ca") "safety first", and old saying in a pulp and paper mill portrated by this character - a mill worker.

For the price, it truly is a great investment. I do not know enoigh about the finer points of seaonsal vs winter but having been thru White Juan in Halifax when that part of the country used to get not sich severe winter weather, I do think global warming means our winters - as the ice flow from the melting bergs (and that is SUCH a simplistic description that I really should not use it but it's late and I am zonked out, lol) that winter tires seem to be a good recommendation and the price differential is not that much.

Good luck and I do hope you enjoy the winter. There is much to speak positively in winter - skiing (which I can no longer do die to medical reasons but I can sit in the warm chalet and watch or chat, lol), skate (cannot so that any longer either but I love to spectate), snowmobiling, walking in the snow and hockey!!! As much as I hate storms, I do like it when we are snowed in and with enough "provisions", can watch the weather outside and feel snug and comfortable as one watches the beautidul snowfall. Now it gets old after a week (Just ask people after White Juan wore out its welcome but it is kind of fun if it lasts not very long and there are not too many medical emergencies!!) :)

Catt31
December 12th, 2004, 05:05 PM
I drive an Accent too Jackie, and mine are all - seasons and they are fine in the winter. I've never had any problems on snow or ice. Being a smaller car with front wheel drive is better than a smaller car with REAR wheel drive. Alberta winters aren't any different from Ontario winters. If you are looking to save $ put all seasons on OR you can go to a pick-a-part auto wrecker type place and get winter tires & rims there for dirt cheap! Thats what my fiancee did! We are trying to save for a house too, and right now, winter tires aren't even an option either. I just drive to the conditions and am extra careful. Good luck Jackie, and enjoy your first Canadian winter!!! :thumbs up

anyone who does NOT have have winter tires on their vehicle) anywhere in Canada - with the possible exception of the lower mainland and Vanouver Island in BC) is tempting fate and may not really value their lives and that of their children/pets if those children and pets drive with them in the winter!!

I value my life, thats a pretty presumptuous statement CyberKitten. I am quite offended by that actually. :sad:

chico2
December 12th, 2004, 05:15 PM
We have a Volvo front-wheel drive and a Jeep Cherokee,all season tires...
Nothing beats the SUV in the snow,I've driven in 2 feet of snow,no problem.
My husband drives quiet far to work and he always drives the Jeep in the winter,in the summer it's resting :) I once got caught in a snow-storm driving the Volvo and I was terrified,sliding all over the place...I'd swear by an SUV in the winter,this is our fourth Jeep.
Catt31,you Albertans are not such scaridy-cats as us Ontarians :thumbs up

lil_kirk
December 12th, 2004, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE=CyberKitten]Speaking as a phsyician and pediatrician who often covers the ER, anyone who does NOT have have winter tires on their vehicle) anywhere in Canada - with the possible exception of the lower mainland and Vanouver Island in BC) is tempting fate and may not really value their lives and that of their children/pets if those children and pets drive with them in the winter!
QUOTE]


I am actually really offended by this statement. No one in my family---boardering Lake Ontario--has ever had winter tires. A good, well treaded set of all season tires paired with responsible driving has done everyone I know a world of good. While I appreciate that people who work in their wheels--like ambluance drivers, fire trucks, sales ppl, etc should have these tires....regular drivers should only have them if they want them.

Not having winter tires does not mean that people MAY or MAY not love their family more or less. I resent the implication that ppl who have winter tires love their families more. Cost is never an issue when it comes to saftey--that goes without saying--but I've only ever been in cars with all season tires and I can tell you that I never felt like I was loved less because of this choice.

I would feel like I was loved less if I was a car with winter tires and a driver who took this to mean he or she was invincible to the elements.

I just had to say this.

Copper'sMom
December 13th, 2004, 10:31 PM
We have a Volvo front-wheel drive and a Jeep Cherokee,all season tires...
Nothing beats the SUV in the snow,I've driven in 2 feet of snow,no problem.
My husband drives quiet far to work and he always drives the Jeep in the winter,in the summer it's resting :) I once got caught in a snow-storm driving the Volvo and I was terrified,sliding all over the place...I'd swear by an SUV in the winter,this is our fourth Jeep.
Catt31,you Albertans are not such scaridy-cats as us Ontarians :thumbs up


Jeep Cherokees are the best!!!! I'm on my third!

Catt31
December 13th, 2004, 11:51 PM
I agree lil kirk!! I just didn't want to get my hand slapped so I bit my lip a bit!! I'm glad you said it better!!!! :thumbs up

Schwinn
December 13th, 2004, 11:57 PM
Another good idea for people who want to be safer in the winter is after a good snow fall, find a snow-covered parking lot and have at it. One of the problems is people have not ever had to handle thier car in an emergency situation until it is just that, an emergency. I remember telling a friend of mine that I was going to an empty parking lot to drive around and get the car to slide to find out how it handles so I could handle emergency situations. He laughed at me until I was talking to him later. He told me he was talking to a cop and mentioned my "excuse" for zipping around a parking lot, and the cop told him that that was a good idea, and he recommends that to people all the time. I remember when I got my first truck and I went out and my wife (girlfriend at the time) asked me where I'd been. I said "I spent about 45 mins going around the parking lot at the mall figuring out how my truck handles in the snow". "But you've been gone for over an hour and a half!" "Yea, the rest of the time I was just being an idiot!" :D

Every car handles a little differently because of weight, power, and yes, tires. It's better to learn how the car handles before you have to, because no one wants a surprise at 80km going sideways.

Also, unfortunately, a lot of people have snow tires for the same reason the have four wheel drives--it compensates for poor driving. (not making accusations--I have one vehicle with snow tires, and another with four wheel drive). I'd rather see someone who has the necessary skills on all season, two wheel drive over someone who is using snow tires to make up for lack of skill any day.

Oh, and I'd say the people who "don't value thier families lives" out-number the others about 12-1. What an ignorant thing to say. That's all I'll say about that...

Karin
December 14th, 2004, 01:32 AM
I feel so left out of this thread, *sniff*.



What's a "snow tire"?




*Note: Just kidding....I live in freakin' Florida...however we are expecting a hard freeze . I know I would never survive up north.

Schwinn
December 14th, 2004, 01:57 AM
I feel so left out of this thread, *sniff*.



What's a "snow tire"?




*Note: Just kidding....I live in freakin' Florida...however we are expecting a hard freeze . I know I would never survive up north.

It's kind of like a "parka". Or a "toque". :p

Catt31
December 14th, 2004, 01:57 AM
LMAO Karin!! Good one!!!! I WISH I was in Florida right now!!! Brrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Karin
December 14th, 2004, 03:05 AM
I do need to move further south, somewhere near the equator.

Iggette
December 14th, 2004, 04:59 AM
IMHO....snow tires are a safety MUST investment.....but like others have said......do take them off in the spring unlike myself....I drove all summer on my new tires......not so new anymore.....Silly me I procastinated sooooooo long now I don't need to change them :o

Schwinn
December 16th, 2004, 04:24 PM
I meant to ask, Jackie. Where I you from? I'm thinking one of the British Isles (or former British). The spelling gave it away! (By the way, be very careful asking someone to check under your "bonnet" when you go to a gas station! ;) )

CyberKitten
December 16th, 2004, 04:57 PM
Sorry, I did not read the comments by the one or two people who were offended by my remarks but if I can at least get you thinking about safety, than it will help and I am sorry - I do not mean to hurt your feelings and am sure you have the best at heart for your children - BUT the facts are that many children (in all provinces and your area like the Maritimes) are especially vulnerable - are needlessly injured because parents have not had winter tires on their cars.

I may have phrased it too bluntly but I learned a long time ago that the issue of safetly when children and pets for that matter can never be sugarcoated. If people decided they would prefer to shoot the messanger, there is not much I can do. (It could also be an occupational hazard - I am used to being asked and paid for my advice) I do not even mind being questioned about it.

I am certain you love your children but whatever you do, please install snow tires. You would understand it more if I could show the autopsy pictures but that is much too graphic!

Schwinn
December 16th, 2004, 05:15 PM
Sorry, I did not read the comments by the one or two people who were offended by my remarks but if I can at least get you thinking about safety, than it will help and I am sorry - I do not mean to hurt your feelings and am sure you have the best at heart for your children - BUT the facts are that many children (in all provinces and your area like the Maritimes) are especially vulnerable - are needlessly injured because parents have not had winter tires on their cars.

I may have phrased it too bluntly but I learned a long time ago that the issue of safetly when children and pets for that matter can never be sugarcoated. If people decided they would prefer to shoot the messanger, there is not much I can do. (It could also be an occupational hazard - I am used to being asked and paid for my advice) I do not even mind being questioned about it.

I am certain you love your children but whatever you do, please install snow tires. You would understand it more if I could show the autopsy pictures but that is much too graphic!

How about the statistics? Because I've talked with the experts, and they certainly don't agree with your assessment. The majority of accidents are not due to improper tires, but driver error. That's a fact. The number of cars without winter tires GREATLY outnumber those with. If what you said was true, then there would be a much higher incidence of accidents. I actually paid attention to the cars as I walked across a 2 km parking lot the other day. I saw 2 cars in a full parking lot with snow tires. I guess the others are doomed, eh?

I don't mean to sound snide, but what you said was mean and spiteful, and not true. While I don't doubt (or envy) the tragedy you've seen, again, the statistics don't support what you say.

CyberKitten
December 16th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Re: don't mean to sound snide, but what you said was mean and spiteful, and not true.

I was not mean - I am not a mean person - was trying to be helpful and honestly, it is how I feel, whatever I can do that's best for children (and pets) is what I will do. You hurt my feelings when you suggest it spiteful because it was never said in that vein nor was it meant that way and I suspect that since you have read most of my writings, you have to know that!

I did not say how I found your remarks- because I am not an unkind person. I am not a martyr but I do more work with children who have suffered horrible injuries at the time of the year when winter tires are not used - it gets better later thank goodness when people have winter tires on and we are all better adjusted to winter driving.

I will get the stats at some point (I am on vacation and just really stopped in to say hello, not be crticised for attempting to be helpful and share my experiences). If you want me to say I have had happy experiences with this issue, I really wish I could.

I also said I agreed that snow tires are but one variable. It is a known fact (and there are literally thousands of studies - google them, they pop up easily - that show that transportation accidents are the leading cause of death among children in the winter. If good winter tires cut down on that stat - and they do - anecdotal evidence (not my fav referance as you know, lol) or Lancet or CMA or JAMA - take your pick - they are well worth the small fee they cost).

To be honest and frank, I cannot for the life of me understand why we are even debating this. It is a motherhood issue, as if I were opposing someone who said they thought it just fine to leave a child in an abusiIn ontariove situation. That injures children too but in the winter time in Canada - and the US states where winter is heavy - it actually injures more of them seriously and kills more of them. I was shocked at that stat years ago too and yet it has not changed much.

My mom - who taught school for 36 years and now resides here in Fla -says our society is not really child friendly and there are days I think she is right. (For example, the neighbourhood where she and my dad winter have no playground, too many seniors - she lobbies but many seniors there are more interested in their issues, not those of children , sighhhhhhhhhh!!)

In Ontario, for some reason - and please note I am not making assumptions here - the rate of admissions has gone up a phenenol 15 por cent and deaths of children in the ER due to transporation injuries in the winter increased by a shocking 24% (Source: Safety Council of Canada). Perhaps this does not shock you but it does me and I wonder what I can do about it. I am not saying anyone here is doing anything wrong. I am asking what can all of us do better? Please tell me how that is mean? I am a concerned person and I see it in my work and want to help - and I try to educate at every opportunity. Is that wrong? Is it spiteful? I asked other physicians this just a few minutes ago (on a conference call and they asked me why I was even bothering to reply to someone who does not know the work I do - I said I do not judge people and want to help and if I can show people how to help, by God I will, even if they erroneously presume to think I am being mean. (That is so hurtful on your part to say) I realize my own recent accident has made me more sensitive but I find your assumptions and prejudgement of me and anyone (because if you treat me this way, surely this must be how you value everyone?). I have been working in spite of the injuries and am totally exhausted yet when I take the time to offer to provide an educated opinion and my experience, someone who knows me not at all is mean and spiteful. Why? I never questioned your judgement or your work or even your ideas/ They all have merit and I said so. Certainly, there are many safety issues in cars and I said I did not want to debate auto safety et al about which I know nothing save being a driver who has taken a few safe driving courses. I just know the stats for children and winter tires and would encourage any parent to use them. If they choose to be libertarian and not think that way, that is up to them. But at least they will have been provided with some info.

I apologize for being emotional but I do not know why you are being so mean about such a topic.

Only a nation that cares about its children can have a future”.

I may take a break from this place - it seems to be getting meaner and nastier than I need of late. Are we not supposed to be caring concerend people who work to help animals? Usually, those who are animal lovers are kind and considerate people. Where did all this mean and nasty commentary come from? (and I have never said anything remotely mean!!) But then you do not know me sooo..........

Happy Holidays!! :sad: :sad:

Schwinn
December 16th, 2004, 10:58 PM
I don't care what you were trying to do, what you said was mean. Suggesting that someone doesn't value the lives of thier family? That's about as personal as you can get, and one of the most hurtful things you can say to anyone. And I didn't say you were mean, I said that statement was mean. But as we have seen on so many occasions the last few weeks, somebody says something, and you take it personally, and go off on a tangent, and end it with a threat to stop coming to this board, while everyone else is looking going, "WTF??" And then, after complaining about someone who doesn't even know you call you mean, and saying you won't say "how you found my remarks", you turn around and tell me I'm being mean. You ask how I can judge you, then tell me that that is how I value everyone?? Then you top it off with saying that it is like debating with someone who says it is okay to leave a child in an abusive situation?? I was cleaning out my bike parts bin tonight, I found some of my old grips. I'll send you one, you need to get one. You talk like you're such a victim of all these vindictive people, and how not mean you are, then you make a vielled insult like that?? You know what, I don't want to see anyone leave, because I think the more people that are on this board, the better. But if you must leave, then take the time to read some "Chicken Soup for the Soul", watch some Dr. Phil, and quit being so damn sensitive!

And I apologize to everyone for going off on a tangent, but I'm tired of watching threads drop into disarray while everyone else is standing there going "what the heck just happened?"

CyberKitten
December 17th, 2004, 03:45 PM
I will NEVER stop being senstitive. It's what makes me good at what I do and a caring soul. If anyone thinks I meant that they personally did not value the lives of their children, I am sorry. That is not what I met - but I suspect all the people who like to go on these tangents already know that. It was a generic statement and not mean, just the truth! (I hear much worse on a daily basis but no one has ever called me mean - they know me too well) You are mean to have made the comments you've made and I hope you can be as mature to make an apologize. I am sorry if I offended anyone. No offense was made - I was making the point that responsible parents would take certain safety measures. (It is not a personal judgement - if they do not not like it, take on the CMA and the Safety Council of Canada, the editorial board of JAMA and the Cdn Pediatric Society, among others.) It is a phrase they have all uttered. And no one has complained! They know it not aimed at any one parent in particular.

At least I have got people to discuss the issue - and even if they do not act on it, they are mad and may do someting that is good. I frankly do not care of they are mad at me. (I just do not understand how someone can interpret that statement personally - since it has been used in these campaigns for years without any problems). That is why I wonder why anyone jumped on me. (It makes no sense is all)

Anyway, have a great holiday!!!

Schwinn
December 17th, 2004, 04:19 PM
If anyone thinks I meant that they personally did not value the lives of their children...It was a generic statement and not mean, just the truth!

You do know how ridiculous that is, right? You state that anyone who does not have winter tires does not value the lives of thier families. Anyone who doesn't have winter tires would take that personally! And it's a generic statement, just the truth?? And not mean?? Use your head!! You just told everyone here who does not have winter tires they don't value the lives of thier families...HELLO! That's a rather mean statement. Then you try to reinforce it by saying that it's the truth??


I am sorry if I offended anyone. No offense was made - I was making the point that responsible parents would take certain safety measures. (It is not a personal judgement - if they do not not like it, take on the CMA and the Safety Council of Canada, the editorial board of JAMA and the Cdn Pediatric Society, among others.) It is a phrase they have all uttered. And no one has complained! They know it not aimed at any one parent in particular.

First of all, that's a crock of BS. None of them have ever said that people who don't have winter tires don't value the lives of thier families. Secondly, you're right. A statement like that isn't aimed at any one person, it's aimed at everyone who doesn't have winter tires!

(I just do not understand how someone can interpret that statement personally - since it has been used in these campaigns for years without any problems). That is why I wonder why anyone jumped on me. (It makes no sense is all)

Do you just make this crap up as you go along? That statement has NEVER been uttered in ANY campaign! And you don't know how someone can take it personally?? You have serious issues. The fact you can't grasp how offensive your false statement is (again, you said--

anyone who does NOT have have winter tires on their vehicle...not really value their lives and that of their children/pets if those children and pets drive with them in the winter!!

--just in case you need to be reminded what was mean about your statement) is mind boggling in itself. Since I have asthma, I'm not going to waste my breath trying to further explain that to you.


Anyway, have a great holiday!!!

Thanks! You too! :D

Lucky Rescue
December 17th, 2004, 04:34 PM
I see nothing to be offended about. It's like someone who rescues animals or works at a shelter may say, "Anyone who lets his dog run loose doesn't love or value it!"

People may very well love their dogs and let them run loose without fully realizing the danger of doing so. The people who see the results of this sometimes must be emphatic to get someone's attention.

That said, snow tires are a must in the snow belt of Canada, and anyone who does not use them is risking his/her own life and the lives of passengers.

All season tires are very dangerous on packed snow.

Schwinn
December 17th, 2004, 04:41 PM
There's a big difference between saying you're risking your life and you don't value the lives of your family. And obviously I'm not the only one who feels that way.

I have no problem debating the necessity of snow tires, and giving my opinion and listening to others. Being involved in rallying, cars is a passion of mine. But to suggest that someone doesn't value the lives of thier family is just ignorant.

While I would agree that, yes, snow tires will improve the safety of your car, spending $500+ is a large chunk of money for a lot of people. And if you have more than one car, that's even more. The fact that the first snow fall of the year, there are hundreds of accidents, but then the rest of the winter the number is greatly reduced, yet the majority of people don't have snow tires tells me that it isn't the tires that are the issue in the majority of cases. Otherwise, we'd see a either a fairly consistant rate of accidents all winter long, or we'd see the majority of people with snow tires. Yet when I drive across Ontario, I see very few front wheel drive cars with snow tires. And my wife who is from Thunder Bay also saw very few snow tires on cars up there. If I had the money, I would probably have snows on all our vehicles. But driving safely 99 days out of 100 is sufficient. Take a cue from the experts:all the police cruisers use winter tires in the snow belt areas (Barrie, Collingwood, Orillia, London)because they drive at high speeds in treacherous conditions. But look at the cars they drive to work in. Most of them are on all seasons.

CyberKitten
December 17th, 2004, 04:51 PM
This is my last post on this issue- since imho - it is so far afield and making no more sense (no thanks to eother of us I guess - tho no, I do not think anything I said was siully or whatever it was you said - (I am too exhasured to remember or care at this point!).

And yes, it was directed at people who do not use/intstall/whatever snow tires. Unfortunately, there are too many of them in the wrong places. I did not hear anyone here say they did that so how can I be hurting anyone? If they do not and live in an area where the median temp is -10 (which includes northern Ontario and the Maritimes and the Praries and many parts of Quebec- not sure about TO and some other parts of Ont tho - maybe you can research that, is that where you live?)

As I said, I am sorry if people think I meant a mean comment but I hate mean people - absoutely abhor them, tho I know we should not hate anyone. So for you to say that to me is very hurtful and I am in tears when I type this. (I am under much stress after that car accident but it seems many people here do not care for others. Many have been very kind but for some reason, you have selected this time to pick on me - and yes, I am being supersensitive at a time I am in chronic pain and so on, (I know, bring out the violins, lol). But I am not an ogre. I am a oerson who tries to do good, to be kind and I just assumed that people who care for animals would have similar characteristics.

I am sorry about your asthma. Not that I am trying to trump you but I have COPD due to one lung (long story that you doutless do not care about). One of the reasons I care so passionatelky about my small patients is my own medical problems. I should not be alive but I am so if I can give just one thing back, I will!!! (And I do try -) It is when I loose small children to stupid (and it is stupid, you have to agree) reasons such as the lack of winter tires in a winter climate.

In one accident, THREE small children died when the car they were drving went out of control. The parents were not bad parents. They were facing financial problems - so could not afford winter tires. No one was drinking spirits or was on drugs, illicit oir legal, the car was in good shape since the father was a mechanic of some kind and both parents had taken safe driving courses somehow or other.(In school possibly, Young Drivers of Canada perhaps though that is often a private school so it must've been another one, not sure). But they thought all seasonals would be fine. Now I am the first to admit I know next to nothing about tires but I did learn that night that seasonals wear out after -10C. (We are lucky to ever see -10 in some of our nights). That night it was -16C, pretty average for here. The only variable left was the no snow tires on an icy road. Some salesman had convinced these poor people that these tires would be safe. He was making a sale. He did not care about their family but they did.

I have never forgotten those children nor their parents because they did not deserve that either!!!

And I am not assigning blame, just narrating how emotional I feel about this topic. It means heartache and death to me, not matter how much you want to sugarcoat it and say something else.

Anyway, that's it, I am DONE. It is up to people to decide what to do based on where they luve. But do not listen to just to me or any doctor and certainly not to a salesperson. Listen to your own heart and do your research!! Talk to many people!

Happy Holidays!

Schwinn
December 17th, 2004, 05:11 PM
:confused:

The asthma thing was tounge in cheek. And I'm sorry you have health difficulties, though that isn't even relavent. And I'm hardly "picking" on you, I'm taking issue with your statement.

Anyway, enough of this dance. It's growing tiresome.

Karin
December 17th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Schwinn, Cyberkitten...let's get past this now. "Tis the season" ..and all that other stuff!

Come on guy's...give up the hunt, smooches to both of you!

Now hug......

(I learned in survival school everyone should hug to stay warm)

lil_kirk
December 17th, 2004, 07:07 PM
I want to see some statistics before I jumped on any winter tire bandwagon. Maybe in your region better driving is in order...(maybe that's a little haste, but no more haste than presuming that one's love for a family can be weighed against the tires they have).

I understand that in your field of work you see the outcome of accidents and I respect that, but I'm going to stick with my original point of view...which is that practical, responsible driving is, above all else, the most important tool to save yourself in winter weather. Winter tires or no winter tires---you just shouldn't to drive in unpenetrable weather unless absolutely necessary (which is when all-season tires are ok for the winter as indicated below).

Maybe this is where we differ--you see accidents caused by families or people who feel they can conquer the weather---my family, friends and myself all stay home or bus it on days when the roads should be avoided.

So in sum--yes winter tires should be put on your vehicle if you a)MUST drive everyday regardless of the weather and/or b) you think you can outwit mother nature and truck it through all the elements regardless of your tires.

No winter tires are not called for if you are like me and my friends and are willing to use public transit or simply stay home and watch a movie on those days when the weather is just too scary to get into!

This is from Transport Canada:

Transport Canada and the Rubber Association of Canada advise motorists to think about safe driving in winter.

Vehicle handling will be improved when identical tires are installed on all four wheels.

Tires marked with the pictograph of a peaked mountain with a snowflake meet specific snow traction performance requirements, and have been designed specifically for use in severe snow conditions.

If you intend driving in severe winter conditions, install four snow tires on your vehicle that meet the new "snow tire" designation. Snow tires will assist you to control your vehicle safely in slippery conditions.

Tires marked "M + S" – or "mud and snow" tires, also known as "all-season" tires, continue to provide safe all-weather performance, but may not always be suitable for severe snow conditions.

Wide, high performance tires, other than those that are specifically designed as snow tires, are not suitable for use on snow covered roads.